Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / MBA Wire Taps 379—Argentina to Spain. GMAT waiver. Military to renewables

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MBA Wire Taps 379—Argentina to Spain. GMAT waiver. Military to renewables · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:16
  Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, August 26, 2024. For more than 100 years, Emory University's Goisueta business school has been a training ground for principal leaders and a laboratory for powerful insights. Whether you're looking to accelerate your career or make a career pivot, Emory's one year and two year full time MBA programs prepare you for a lifetime of career confidence. Learn more about Emory's top 20 MBA with top five career outcomes offering world class academics and small by design classes delivered in a dynamic global city. More at Emory Bizdez slash clearadmit, I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going?
• 1:03
  Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
• 1:05
  Speaker A: So, like last week, this week we're gonna do something a little different with the opening minutes of the show before we get into our candidates for the week. And so I thought instead of just going over some of the stuff on the website, that we would talk about an important issue that many applicants grapple with, and that is the value of the full time MBA degree. And I'm bringing this up because we just thought it'd be interesting to discuss, but also, it's a bit topical. I know we did an article not so long ago on clearadmit.com comma about what's going on with the job market. We've seen declines in tech hiring out of MBA programs. We've heard rumors and now have some facts and figures around consulting hiring in terms of people getting their start dates pushed back. And so I know there's some uncertainty out there about what kind of jobs are out there when you graduate. Even this past last year, we did see slight dips in some of the accounting stats with respect to career services that schools are publishing. So the one I'm thinking of is the percentage of people who have a job within three months of graduation. Now, granted, these numbers are still really high and the starting salaries are still climbing, climbing, climbing. But I know people wonder about this. And even job market aside, I think people going into an MBA have a right to ask. And so I wanted to ask you as a kind of starting point, I have a bunch of questions for you about, you know, your take on, like what are the concerns, what is the value? All that stuff. Although I would be remiss, Alex, if I did first mention and do a quick plug for the events that we have coming up next month. Totally forgot to mention that. So I'm going to squeeze it in here. We are doing our webinar series. There are three of them in September, on the 11th, 18th and 25th at noon Eastern. Those are three consecutive Wednesdays and we've got five schools. Each week. I'll be emceeing these events, talking with schools and taking people kind of behind the curtain a little bit when it comes to admission strategy, asking schools questions about, you know, the difference between applying in round one versus round two. Since this is kind of a session that will be largely aimed at round two candidates, we'll also talk a little bit about interviewing and that may be relevant for people who've just applied as well in round one. So should be a lot of fun. You can sign up at bit, Lyde, forward slash, insidemba, all one word, all lowercase. So, Alex, I'm looking forward to that, but are you ready to tackle some questions about the value of the MBA?
• 3:31
  Speaker B: Absolutely. But maybe you should also be asking those ADcom folks during those sessions in September.
• 3:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's not a bad idea. So I guess, I mean, everyone knows it's, you know, that it's expensive to do an MBA, but I wanted. Can you just take me through, like, what are the reasons that someone might be sort of concerned or what are the risks involved, the things that people are kind of, you know, thinking about when they're sort of contemplating application to business school?
• 3:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like you say, for one, it's, it's a very expensive proposition in terms of just absolute cost, but also opportunity cost. Right. So if you're in a reasonably good career, you know, you're planning to take two years out of that. That's two years of lost salary too. Right. So it's a moment in your career where you are placing a significant investment into your sort of future and so on and so forth. And any kind of investment comes with associated risks and so forth. So, yeah, I mean, just purely financially, Graham, this is a big deal.
• 4:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't have the numbers at my fingertips here, but we know that it's like a couple hundred thousand dollars to go to business school for two years. Years in terms of tuition, you're going to cost a living and as you said, opportunity costs. So it's probably more than 200 if you start to count. Well, what about that lost income that you're not going to be getting because you've left your job? And I would also argue some people feel like, wow, if I take two years away from the workforce, I'm currently on a trajectory, like I'm about to get promoted or their promotion's coming and I'm going to get. It's sort of like going into the pit stop. You got to then catch up to the other cars out there on the track. So there's that concern as well, I would add. Maybe there's one other thing which is sort of a personal thing. I mean, for these top MBA programs that we talk about, which are full time, you sometimes are uprooting, right. You're moving, and that might involve moving not just you, but your significant other or if you have kids. So this kind of can be disruptive for families or just spouses, partners, etcetera.
• 5:41
  Speaker B: No, absolutely. So on the one hand, it's a significant investment. There's lots of risk involved, but the payback can be extraordinary.
• 5:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Speaker B: And so forth. So I think, yeah, I mean, we're obviously here to talk about the value of the MBA, and I'd say both of us, Graham, we're huge cheerleaders for the degree, and our career over the last 20 years would state that it'd be hard to do our kind of work if we didn't really believe in the value of what the NBA represents. So I'll kick some things off and actually I'll talk about something that you perhaps not thinking that I would talk about initially. And I think it's the academics for a start. Right. If you go into a top tier MBA program, you're going to be surrounded by faculty from extraordinary faculty teaching really interesting subjects. But I would argue that perhaps going to a top tier MBA program in 202-45-2026 this is going to be more important because I think we are now in the midst of a new digital transformation in terms of what Genai and various other AI technologies are bringing to how we conduct business. So to navigate this transition whilst being aligned with some of the top thinkers in the world on these subjects, I think is probably a really extraordinary opportunity.
• 7:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, you're talking about the classroom and the caliber of the faculty in these programs. But I would also argue that, you know, what better place to have these discussions, not only with someone at the front of the room who's a genius. Right. But being surrounded by others who come from a diversity of kind of backgrounds and work experiences and, you know, just being in a room with a ton of smart people tackling these tough topics as hard to beat. So I guess, what about other reasons that I think there's a ton of value in the degree? We can talk, I guess, in a little bit more detail in a minute or so about some of the career placement stuff. But what about the network, aside from career placement? Tell me about the, because you really, you're a part of the Wharton community, you're part of the Delaware community. All this because of your exposure to the business schools and stuff.
• 8:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. But again, just back to this point of being at the front end of where this digital transformation is occurring and how we're navigating that, as you point out, it's not just the faculty, it's the students you're in the classroom with. These are really ambitious, really smart students all trying to figure out this really interesting puzzle. So just the classroom engagement is going to be absolutely fantastic. But back to your point, the whole networking, the relationships you build over the two years can be absolutely fantastic. And then you join this sort of group of alumni from the particular program that you graduate from that represents such extraordinary, I mean, as you point out, Graham, I worked a couple of business schools, Wharton, obviously, the more notable, all my work that I do in a remote part of the UK is all a function of my seven years at Wharton. Right. Whether it's working with you guys, whether it's through, through another alum, Alec Campbell, who sort of hooked me up with all my digital online teaching work and so on and so forth. So whilst I'm a bit of an unorthodox example, because I wasn't a student at Wharton, I mean, I was able to tap into that network, and it's absolutely extraordinary.
• 9:50
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, to give a concrete example on my end, I mean, I, you know, there've been a number of times where just being a part of the Wharton network and, you know, not beyond just the friendships that I have. And, you know, whenever I'm traveling somewhere into any market pretty much in the world, there's somebody that I was at school with. But beyond that, when I moved to France, for example, I joined the Wharton club of Paris, became a member of the board of that club for a while. And just the exposure, I remember we teamed up with INSEAD because these business schools on the front end, everyone's competing. There's a lot of rivalry and stuff on the back end. Once you've finished, you're part of this club. To the extent that the Wharton and the INSEAD club in Paris sometimes do things together, Wharton and INSEAD have kind of alliance that they share where they do exchange students during the program. So there's a nice bond there. And I can recall helping to set up a dinner at Versailles in one of the, I mean, literally in Versailles, after hours a dinner with a whole bunch of business leaders across all of France. There were some talks made by CEO's and I mean, that's just one kind of instance. But you have all this exposure. I mean, obviously there have been times in the past, kind of early on where Claire admit did a little fundraising. I mean, just so much easier when you have access to a network. I think the wart network is what there's like more than 100,000 alums out there across the globe. So it really does make an impact. So we've said what education? The students around you, your kind of fellow classmates, and then that network that you become a part of. Anything else that you can think of in terms of the value of the degree?
• 11:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, sure. The careers. Right, career opportunities. So yeah, whilst you're taking a risk stepping away from your current trajectory, the top programs have relationships with the top firms all around the world. They have very rigorous recruiting programs. And yeah, maybe there's a little bit of a downturn in the consulting market at this juncture. As we've sort of seen in the data from last season and what we've been hearing, business schools haven't lost that relationship with consulting firms and they will be hiring a lot of people. It just might have dipped just marginally. Obviously, technology is a sector that's really emerged over the last, what, 1015 years? That's going through another transition. So I would say that maybe some of the technology folks suffering at this point, but there are new emerging areas of technology, obviously on the AI side where firms can't hire enough. So technology, obviously finance has great relationships with top business schools, but I'm a huge believer in the MBA degree being useful for so many different industries, so many different sectors, so many different types of goals. It's such a great generalist degree, but allows you, with your particular niche focus, to go deep into your area, whatever that might may be. Which sounds a little bit at odds of being a generalist degree, but the flexibility is extraordinary.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, and I would just add, I guess two things are coming to my mind. Number one, while there's been a little bit of a downturn in the job market, as I was saying earlier, the percentages of students graduating with jobs are still pretty much off the charts. I mean, when you think back to some of the other blips that we've had, whether it was 2001, the.com bubble bursting, or the 2008 financial crisis, those were even harder times and people were still getting jobs coming out of mbas. I've talked to a number of grads from those years who it did fine. I mean, sometimes you have to pivot. You notice a lot of schools now asking questions like, what's your career plan? And what would you do if you couldn't do that plan? So this kind of being flexible, and as you point out, the degree has an innate flexibility to it that allows you to kind of work in so many different areas. Unlike, say, if you go to law school or medical school, there's a pretty narrowly defined thing that you're going to do when you're done. So that's one point. I just think that this isn't quite the, the downturn that we've seen in the past. And the other thing I would argue is that even if there is a little bit of a downturn now, you can't really predict these things. And imagine someone applying now, they're going to start business school probably in the fall of 25, which means they're not going to graduate until the spring of 27. Okay. That's a long time from now. And this is what's so funny to me, is that people are often, people are often like, oh, don't go to business school because the economy's in a little bit of a downturn. Well, of course, by the time you get into business school and graduate, the economy could be in a massive upswing. And so it's very hard to time this stuff. And meanwhile, the other people are like, oh, the economy's on an upswing. I'm going to apply now. Then by the time they get in and graduate, maybe the economy's coming back down. So it really is. You can't let sort of just monthly or even kind of current trends dictate exactly the timing here. It's really difficult to time this stuff.
• 15:04
  Speaker B: And I just had one sort of slight nuance point to this, Graham. I wouldn't call this a downturn. I'd call it a transition.
• 15:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 15:15
  Speaker B: So we're really going through another phase of the technology transition. I believe with the emergence of AI, it is going to change lots of sectors and industries. My focus has always been on sort of the marketing aspect. And yeah, it's completely going to change how we do marketing, but we are still going to need to do marketing. The best marketers will be the marketers that understand how to work with AI. AI won't replace marketers, but marketers that understand AI will replace marketers that don't.
• 15:49
  Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
• 15:51
  Speaker B: So we're going through that sort of transition rather than I would qualify as a downturn. And you would hope that going to the, the top business schools in the world will give you those skills to understand how to be the best at what you do in your sector with a keen understanding of how AI can improve your, improve your opportunities within whatever sector it is that you're focused upon.
• 16:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. The last thing I wanted to mention that we can get into our candidates for this week, I guess. But the last thing I wanted to mention is just that you often hear this refrain and you wrote about this in the clear admit admissions book a little bit. But this idea, people would be like, oh, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, those guys don't have mbas. Some of them didn't even finish college. They dropped out and made billions of dollars. So you hear that a lot. Right. And so one of the things I have to laugh at is those are kind of outlier cases that would be like basing your whole career around this sort of million to one shot type stuff. Right. Whereas going to.
• 16:54
  Speaker B: They were also very lucky, Gray.
• 16:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:56
  Speaker B: To be present at a time where we were about to transition and they led that transition through luck more than their own particular genius. Because if they hadn't led it, someone else would have done.
• 17:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I just think when you look at the MBA degree, you could argue it's almost like an insurance policy. It's definitely a good degree to have, again, the network, the ability to fundraise, all these things come into play. But the other thing, we're doing this series now on the website that I think people have probably been seeing, but it's a series about famous alumni from business schools. And so for all those Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerbergs, I should mention that the current CEO's of Microsoft, Google, Apple, GM, JPMorgan, Ford, ExxonMobil, all those CEO's are graduates of top MBA programs. So we're writing articles on the site about this. At the moment we've grouped them by industry. But just again, to show that people with mbas do go on to do these amazing things, that it's a worthwhile degree, there's a ton of value in it. So I just wanted to stop there. But anything you want to add on this, Alex?
• 18:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, just my final point. Obviously the founders of these extraordinary businesses recognize the need for the MBA because they've hired top MBAs to run their businesses once they've scaled to a certain point. I think that's your point that you made. Probably the only tech CEO that would have, would be upset with that sort of assertion is Elon Musk. But he, you know, we could do a whole episode on the psyche of Elon Musk, and we would have more material than time to run that conversation.
• 18:43
  Speaker A: And didn't he do his undergrad at Penn and maybe Wharton? So, you know.
• 18:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think he has a connection there, but we can leave it at that.
• 18:51
  Speaker A: So in any event. All right. Well, yeah, I appreciate you kind of weighing. And I just know this is something that's on people's minds as they work hard to put applications together and are kind of thinking, oh, is this all worth it? That kind of stuff. So, in any event, let's kind of pause there and get into our candidates for this week. Unless you had anything else.
• 19:07
  Speaker B: Let's kick off.
• 19:08
  Speaker A: All right, so this is wiretaps. Candidate number one. Our first candidate this week has just three schools on the target list, and those schools are esade. That is business school and ESE. So I guess they're splitting their apps between Madrid and Barcelona. This candidate wants to start school in 2025. They've been working in consulting, and they're thinking about consulting after business school, at least in the near term. And so they have Bain and Booz, Allen, Hamilton, BCG, McKinsey on the target list. They've got 7710 on the GMAt and a 3.9 GPa from undergrad. Really stellar undergraduate performance. They've been working for three years. They are located in Argentina, and they would like to use the MBA to transition to Europe. This candidate also did have some back and forth with us on the site and mentioned two things. One is that their long term goal after doing consulting is to work in a fintech startup company in Europe. So kind of want to get. They want to get specific into fintech. And the other thing they mentioned is that they used to compete in track and field and that they became the national champion and south american finalists in triple jump. So that's kind of this candidate's background. Alex, what do you make of this profile? It's kind of unusual.
• 20:26
  Speaker B: I always wonder. I need to go to Wikipedia and look at the history of the triple jump thing. Like, where did it come from? You know, you would think that all these sort of sports have a reason to be right, but the triple jumps are something that I've never really understood, but I have huge admiration for whether you're a national champion in whatever discipline. I think that's absolutely extraordinary. We talked about that before. Top athletes, the dedication it takes, etc. Etc. That's really, really good. Obviously, their GPA is super strong. They haven't really commented on their particular work experience, but they're going to need to show impact and growth at work, as we tend to talk about regularly. Let's assume that's there. As you point out, they're using this degree, and we didn't point this out earlier in terms of value of the MBA, but it can give you that geographic mobility, right?
• 21:24
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 21:25
  Speaker B: So they're using this degree to transition, presumably out of Argentina to establish their career in Europe. It seems like a good thing to do, quite frankly. Graham, I think this is a really quality candidate, assuming that work experience is the strength that we would presume for a candidate like this. But, yeah, super quality long term goal fintech startup. So presumably their consulting experience to date has been sort of giving them exposure to that sector and so forth. But, yeah, I really like this candidate, Graham.
• 22:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess I could see how Argentina having the kind of struggles economically in terms of, particularly with respect to finance and stuff and a lot of kind of currency crises over the years, maybe that's, I don't know if there's a connection there, but that may spark their interest in fintech and things like that, that can sort of maybe help a country like Argentina to advance. It would be nice to know, yeah. If they have any plans to return in the longer term back home or if it's just I want to go to Europe and stay. I will say, to the best of my knowledge, there is a kind of established pipeline from some of the latin american countries over to these top business schools in Spain, for obvious reasons, in terms of culture and language and stuff. So this is, yeah, I agree with you. This is really strong candidacy. GMAT is a 710, but that should play fairly well with the schools on their target list. And, you know, it's not as great as the GPA three nine, but it's a pretty darn good score. And, you know, I think that this person's going to be very competitive, as you say, assuming the work experience adds up and that they can make a compelling case because they only have three years of experience. So, you know, not, not on the top end there or anything. But, yeah, it should be interesting. And I love the fact that they were like a serious competitor in an Olympic sport. Very timely, as you pointed out on the website. All right, excellent. So I want to thank that candidate for sharing their profile. Let's move on, though, and talk about wire taps. Candidate number two. So our second candidate this week has eleven schools on the target list. And those schools are Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, Dartmouth, Emory, Michigan, NYU, University of Washington, Foster, UCLA, UNc, UT, Austin, and Vanderbilt. So a long list of targets. They want to start school in the fall of 25. This person's currently working in finance at a startup. They're thinking about getting into consulting or maybe tech. And they have all the usual suspects, the Bain, BCG, McKinsey's, but also Amazon, Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, Microsoft, etcetera on their target list. They have an amazing 3.97 GPA and they have four years of work experience to date. They are located currently in Chicago and they are totally open in terms of where they land post MBA. Now here's where things get kind of interesting, Alex, and I cannot wait to hear your take on this. So this person graduated with a bachelor's in business analytics from a small school in Illinois. And they did so rapidly, three years, they finished the degree. They then while they were a senior, or I guess in their third year of this program, they applied to and were accepted to a few deferred MBA programs. And they mentioned one is a top ten school and it sounds like some top 15 schools. So they have three. It sounds like at least three deferred admits that they're holding on to. And they say that they are still kind of looking at their options, though. And they mentioned they had some pretty good college internships at Shell, JPMorgan, etcetera. And that post grad they've been, they did some work at JP Morgan and then a startup that ipo'd and now at another early stage startup. So they said that they're not taking the GMat or the GRe. They want to see how they do and they might take it again in future rounds. And they say they're going to be applying round one to all of these schools and so. And they want to get into product strategy at a tech company, potentially after business school. They shared a bunch of other data about their, you know, outside activities. But I just want to stop there, Alex, because I'm trying to make sure I understand this. So they're sitting on a top ten offer for deferred and a couple of top 15. So they have those, they could say to those schools right now I'm coming next fall. Right. But they said they're looking at their options. Do you understand what's going on here? Because I'm a little, I'm kind of scratching my head.
• 25:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, frankly, I don't really understand what this candidates really thinking and hopefully they can express it a little bit more on the site. Because as you say, they've got a great GPA. I think their work experience looks really interesting and strong. They've got, you know, from finance, JP Morgan specifically. They've worked at two startups. It sounds super, super interesting. Obviously, in finance roles at the startups, I assume they've got offers of already through the deferred admit process, and they're targeting schools that aren't necessarily better than a top ten school if they've already got an offer from there. So I don't get that at all. This reticence for taking the Gmail. I think they need to really knuckle down prep really hard, get that test score that's equivalent to the rest of this profile that is in the 700s along the way in terms of the old scoring. But you get what I'm saying, and target m seven programs, if they've already got a top ten in the bag, I don't really understand why they're targeting these programs that they've listed, because they don't seem particularly any stronger. So, yeah, get this test done. Waiving the test, it never works. If you've got the resource to get the test done, that's always the best strategy.
• 27:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. I have a theory. Okay. My theory on this one, it's twofold. Number one, I suspect that given that they've now been working for four years, that that test, the GRE or the GMAT, whatever they would have taken to get into deferred several years back, is expired. Right. And so they probably are in a position where they would have to take it again. Cause they have an expired exam. And it's possible, I mean, it is possible that they applied without a test to get into these deferred programs, but very few of them allow for that. So I'm kind of just going on the basis that they probably took it and it's expired, and so they're not wanting to take it again. But then the bigger issue is why not just take the top ten school? Let's say they were admitted to Stern or whoever, whoever it is. Let's say they already have an offer. I guess Stern's on their current list, so it must be somebody else. But so they have an offer somewhere that's a top ten school according to them. And so the only reason I can think that they would want to shop around would be money. Maybe this candidate is like, wow, I'm going to apply in the first round to all these top, to these other top schools and see if I can get in with like a free ride and so that comes back to your point, though. Don't. Don't apply with a waiver if you're looking for scholarship money. I mean, I just don't think it's a great idea. I just think, you know, if you're trying to get scholarship, your best bet is you come in with, like, a whopping test score to complement this 3.97 GPA, and then, you know, you see where the chips fall. But that's the only thing I can think of because I don't understand it. Why are they spending all this time with a bunch of sort of top, let's say, I don't know, 15 or 15 to 25 type schools, if they already have an offer at three deferred enrollment programs that are at a higher rank? So I'm confused. Unless it's a money thing. And if it is a money thing, take the test. That's my take.
• 29:12
  Speaker B: I think at the end of the day, Graeme, our only advice is knuckle down, take the test, target higher programs. They've got quality in their work experience. They've got a super GPA. We don't know much about their outside activities, but let's see, they listed a few things.
• 29:29
  Speaker A: They're like a runner.
• 29:30
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 29:31
  Speaker A: No, they have some things here. And that all looks great, too. That's why it's like, all the more. They're part of Chicago's run club. They've got 35,000 followers on an account they set up. This person was a fashion model. I mean, they.
• 29:42
  Speaker B: They remember now. So we can wrap this conversation up. Graham, take the test.
• 29:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, take the test. That's what I would say. That'll definitely shape out.
• 29:53
  Speaker B: I qualify that prep hard and get your best test score right. Aim high.
• 29:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, because they could apply in round two. There's no. It doesn't sound like, based on what I understand from their profile, that they have to be in round one, you know, so I would take the test, plan round two, see where the chips fall. And in the meantime, they know they've got those deferred enrollments to lean back on if they do need to go to school next fall.
• 30:13
  Speaker B: I can't believe we wasted six minutes to tell them to take the test.
• 30:17
  Speaker A: No, but it's an interesting mystery. So, anyway, let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three. So, our final candidate this week has just six schools on the target list, and those schools are Carnegie Mellon, Duke, UNC, UT, Austin, UVa, Darden and Vanderbilt. This candidate. So this could definitely a bit of a mid atlantic southeast south theme. This candidate once to start school in the fall of 25. This is a military candidate with seven years of service. They have a 3.15 GPA and they have taken both the executive assessment where they scored a whopping 161, as well as the GMAT focus edition where they have a 645. If you're still not used to the focus edition scoring and how it kind of relates, that's about a 600 9700 depending. So that's where they fell with the test. They're thinking of post MBA getting into a leadership development program or a finance leadership development program within the energy sector. And we did ask them both you and I asked them some questions on the website and they chimed in to add that, you know, they're thinking of submitting both the EA and the GMAT just to let the schools know that they've taken both and to share both scores. They also mentioned that their undergrad was from a kind of mid tier state school. It was a b's in mechanical engineering, and they don't think there was a ton of grade inflation within their program. They also shared that they've had a pretty interesting military background that they've been fortunate to have, you know, been deployed. They've worked in traditional military leadership roles, but also done some teaching within the military at a military school. And again, they don't have a kind of connection to the energy sector in terms of the experience they've had to date. But that's why they're thinking of using one of these kind of leadership development programs at a big company to kind of get into that. And they are particularly interested in clean tech, but they feel like they might have to do kind of an oil and gas route first in terms of something being easier to get into. So that's kind of the basic take. Alex, there's one more thing I should share about this candidate, and that's that they left us a really sweet comment. They said, thanks for everything you do with the podcast. It's been a huge help throughout this process. So I just want to thank them for listening. But Alex, what do you think make of this kind of candidacy?
• 32:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like their military experience is strong and obviously that's, that's a big positive for the candidate. Obviously I like their goals. I like this notion of anyone that wants to improve the quality of the planet is good in my book. Right. So clean tech, renewable energy type stuff, that's really super important. We need more mbas sort of moving in that direction, for sure. So that should sit well. They're going to need to really approach how they address their goals, I think really sort of intelligently and so on and so forth, because they don't really have a connection to that sector going into the MBA. So how they articulate that will be quite important, I think. But as you say, doing it through leadership development programs, etcetera, that seems to make good sense. I mean, obviously a lot of military candidates start off going into consulting, and that is another possibility. Coming out consulting with a focus in that sector and then transitioning into sort of a leadership type role in operations in that sector would be another potential route. Their numbers aren't outstanding, so that might be their sort of weaker point. But I'm just talking relative holistically, as it were, compared to everything else in that profile. So that 315 mechanical engineering degree claim without grade inflation, and it is an engineering degree, so get some credit for that. But it is going to be lower than the average. So that might be a little bit of a concern that 645 is a decent GMAT, but again, it's going to be slightly lower than the average for the top programs. As you point out, their EA score looks really strong. So representing both scores I think is a smart thing to do. But overall, I like the quality of the candidate. Graham, I just a little bit apprehensive with the combination of the GMAT and the GPA.
• 34:58
  Speaker A: I mean, I will say their target list of schools is varied. They have Duke, which is a very top school, but they also have some other programs here that you would argue that are kind of top 20 or 25. So they have a little bit of a spread in terms of the admissions difficulty. I do agree with you, though. There's going to be plenty of mechanical engineers in the pool who went to top schools who have three fives, three sixes or even higher. So they're going to be up against it a little bit. But I'm hoping that the military experience, those seven years of experience with some deployments, provides for a stellar work experience profile. And I like their goals. I think these leadership development programs are a nice path post MBA as a way to kind of rotate through a business and probably increasingly appealing if the consulting hiring numbers are down a bit, too, right? So I think they have a good plan. But yeah, I would be wary of the numbers and the EA is a strong score, but as you point out, the GMAT a little bit lower. So we'll just have to see. I'm hoping that if they apply to this mix of schools, they'll end up with at least a couple of offers. They may end up finding themselves on a waitlist. That happens sometimes when your kind of numbers are a bit low and schools are kind of going to play wait and see. So just want to prepare them for that potential outcome, in which case they might be thinking about, oh, do I need to reset the GMAT? Reset the GPaD exam or something? But we'll see.
• 36:20
  Speaker B: Let me ask you a quick question, Graham. Are they being ambitious enough with this target list?
• 36:26
  Speaker A: I mean, given the 3.15 GPA? I think it's. Yeah, I mean, they have, you know, a couple of top 16 in Darden and Duke and then they have sort of back end of the top 20 and then arguably Owen is probably more top 25. So I think it's okay. I don't know, I think it's be hard for them to get into a top ten school with a 3.15 and a 645. I think it's going to be hard.
• 36:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. But if they get admitted to Duke and Darden, they'll always wonder, I think taking, what? One flyer in an m seven or a top ten.
• 37:02
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it'd be good to know more about the work, like the sort of service and what's happened, because if there's some incredible stories to tell, maybe they could overcome. Yeah. So, yeah, you're making a good point. So, anyway, yeah, they should feel free to elaborate or reach out to us if they would like, but I think, yeah, you're making a good point. They'll always wonder if it doesn't, you know, if they get in everywhere or something. All right, well, thanks for picking these out, Alex, and a lot of fun at the top here to talk about the value of the degree. Hopefully that was useful for our listeners, because I think it is something that's on everyone's mind when you're making this kind of an investment. In any event, Alex, we'll connect again next week, do it all again and go through some great candidates. It's been a lot of fun.
• 37:43
  Speaker B: Very good. Best of luck, everyone. Stay safe.