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Alli Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell on finding success with your second book · The Book Deal

0:09
Speaker 7: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
0:15
Speaker 8: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
0:25
Speaker 9: So no matter what's.
0:26
Speaker 9: Stage of writing your at.
0:28
Speaker 9: We've got you covered.
0:29
Speaker 9: I'm Tina Strachan.
0:30
Speaker 7: I'm Madeline Cleary.
0:32
Speaker 8: And I'm Natasha Rai.
0:34
Speaker 9: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
0:37
Speaker 10: one deal at a time.
0:43
Speaker 10: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
0:56
Speaker 11: Ali Parker and Mark Mupotsa-Russell are two of my favorite writing friends.
1:00
Speaker 11: Ali is a Japanese Australian bestselling author and screenwriter and ordained boo novel.
1:05
Speaker 11: At the foot of the cherry tree was an instant bestseller.
1:09
Speaker 11: Mark Mupotsa-Russell has won a bunch of different hats as a screenwriter film reviewer.
1:14
Speaker 11: Cocktail columnist, PR consultant and communications advisor.
1:18
Speaker 11: He's debut novel.
1:19
Speaker 11: The Hit Woman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt is being adapted for screen Over a year ago now, I interviewed Ali and Mark about their debut novels for the pod, and so I invited them back to share their experiences of publishing for the second time.
1:34
Madeleine Cleary: So this is a very special first for the podcast, because I'm bringing back two amazing guests and two of my favorite writing people to talk second books.
1:44
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I have to say that I'm sitting here quite envious of the two of you, uh, because you have both followed up your debuts with some really incredible second novels.
1:54
Madeleine Cleary: So a big welcome back, Ali Parker
1:56
Alli Parker: Thanks.
1:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: and Mark Mupotsa-Russell
1:59
Speaker 2: Thank you.
2:01
Alli Parker: I didn't know which of us you were gonna go do first, so I thought
2:05
Madeleine Cleary: I started with Ali'cause a a's first in the
2:08
Alli Parker: I should have about
2:08
Madeleine Cleary: no favorites.
2:09
Madeleine Cleary: No favorites here.
2:12
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so everyone always talks about the debut experience, but I think people rarely talk about publishing second books, third books, fourth books.
2:21
Madeleine Cleary: Uh, I think there's an assumption that.
2:22
Madeleine Cleary: if you've done it once, then surely it gets easier.
2:26
Madeleine Cleary: So Mark, does it get easier?
2:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, I don't, so I, I slightly cheated in that I kind of had a lot of this book, um, already, uh, I, I had so many, like two decades of rejections and all that sort of stuff that, um, I, I haven't been sort of like a put all my eggs in one basket kind of thing.
2:47
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, so when I, I was publishing the Hitman's Guide to Reducing Household Debt when that, before that had even been picked up on contract.
2:54
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I think I had like two thirds of a rough draft of this one.
2:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, so it was a little bit different in that I didn't have that pressure of trying to come up with a new idea, all that sort of stuff like that.
3:06
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, the, the actual promotion part of it, I, uh, might.
3:11
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Experience and I'd be fascinated to hear, um, uh, Ali's and yours Madeline, in, um, a little while of, uh, like I feel like on the first book I was just anxious.
3:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It was just like a broad anxiousness and I had no idea what to expect.
3:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And this time I was incredibly anxious about the right things.
3:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I think like, you know, there, there's, you know, where to direct that stuff a little bit more.
3:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's probably the simplest way I, I experienced it.
3:41
Madeleine Cleary: Ali, what do you think?
3:43
Alli Parker (2): It is.
3:44
Alli Parker (2): Interesting.
3:45
Alli Parker (2): I had almost, I guess, the completely opposite approach to Mark for my second book in that I didn't have one, I had a basic idea for what would come after at the Foot of the Cherry Tree, and that was when we went to Harper Collins, my publisher, and we were pitching them.
4:01
Alli Parker (2): We were talking obviously about Cherry Tree because that was the book that I'd written.
4:04
Alli Parker (2): And then I remember in that first meeting with my publisher, before she'd even made an offer, she was like, have you got any other ideas?
4:10
Alli Parker (2): And I was like, yes, I, and I had this one liner for what I thought Book two would be, and I gave it to her and she goes, great.
4:16
Alli Parker (2): And then we just kept talking about Cherry Tree.
4:18
Alli Parker (2): And then when obviously Cherry Tree came out, I had then in the process of submitting Cherry Tree and going to print, I then started working on the second book.
4:29
Alli Parker (2): And then it just was so hard, and it wasn't even because there was pressure from Cherry Tree, I was just like.
4:36
Alli Parker (2): I don't know what I'm doing.
4:38
Alli Parker (2): This is the first book that I'm writing as a book, because Cherry Tree, I had written as a screenplay first, which I was really familiar with the format.
4:45
Alli Parker (2): And then I adapted the screenplay into a manuscript.
4:47
Alli Parker (2): So I already had a really solid foundation of the story there.
4:50
Alli Parker (2): But with this new book, I was like, oh, this is what, is this what every book is like?
4:54
Alli Parker (2): Like this is like how you write prose.
4:56
Alli Parker (2): It's so much harder than I thought.
4:58
Alli Parker (2): And there were days where it was like wading through treacle and I just could not get any words down.
5:02
Alli Parker (2): And then there were some scenes that flew and they were really amazing.
5:05
Alli Parker (2): And then I submitted that draft to my publisher, which was maybe like two months after Cherry Tree come out, or maybe I submitted it just before Cherry Show came out.
5:14
Alli Parker (2): I can't really remember the timeline, but my publisher then had it for three months.
5:19
Alli Parker (2): And in that.
5:20
Alli Parker (2): Period of three months.
5:21
Alli Parker (2): I had so much doubt about it.
5:23
Alli Parker (2): I decided I didn't like the draft.
5:25
Alli Parker (2): I decided the first draft, even though first drafts can be rough, absolutely, but it wasn't where I wanted it to be.
5:31
Alli Parker (2): And I had the spark of an idea for another story and I was like, okay, well if they turn around and say we wanna talk to you about a third book, I wanna have something already on the go.
5:39
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I want the timelines to be a bit closer.
5:42
Alli Parker (2): And so I started working on this new idea.
5:44
Alli Parker (2): And then the more I started working on this new idea, the more I fell in love with it.
5:47
Alli Parker (2): And it was so much easier to write.
5:49
Alli Parker (2): And it was coming together really organically, and the characters felt more real and the settings felt more real.
5:54
Alli Parker (2): And everything just came together so well, is that I was just like, how do I mention that I wanna swap books?
6:03
Alli Parker (2): And then basically the day that I started writing the first page of the manuscript of Until the Red Leaves Fall, I wrote like 300 words.
6:13
Alli Parker (2): And then I stopped to take a break, make a cup of tea.
6:16
Alli Parker (2): I came back to my computer and I had a missed call from my publisher and had immediate panic attack.
6:21
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I always have a panic attack when my publisher calls, even though it's never bad news.
6:25
Alli Parker (2): So I really need to weed that out.
6:27
Alli Parker (2): Um, but she was ringing to talk about the second book.
6:30
Alli Parker (2): Uh, and so we had a chat about the second book and she was like, oh, you know, it needs work, but we can get it there, but we're probably gonna have to push into 2025.
6:37
Alli Parker (2): 'cause it was supposed to be published in August, 2024.
6:39
Alli Parker (2): So a year after Cherry Tree.
6:41
Alli Parker (2): And I was like, inwardly, I'm thinking, oh, if we're gonna push, I'd really just rather like push and just go to.
6:48
Alli Parker (2): And so I was like, okay, okay.
6:50
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, let's, let's see.
6:51
Alli Parker (2): Like I'd be interested in your like written notes and we can talk through that way.
6:55
Alli Parker (2): And then she said, you know, it's the, it's basically the 2nd of January.
7:00
Alli Parker (2): She's like, where are you?
7:01
Alli Parker (2): What are you doing?
7:01
Alli Parker (2): Are you on holidays?
7:02
Alli Parker (2): Are you working?
7:03
Alli Parker (2): And I said, oh, I'm actually away on a writer's retreat.
7:06
Alli Parker (2): Um, and I've just started working on something new this morning.
7:08
Alli Parker (2): And she goes.
7:10
Alli Parker (2): What's that about?
7:13
Alli Parker (2): And so I gave this really messy pitch of this story that I suddenly had in my head.
7:18
Alli Parker (2): And basically she was like, okay, write as much as you kind of a January.
7:21
Alli Parker (2): Send me everything you've got at the end of the month and we can make a call there.
7:25
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I think this sounds like a better follow up novel to Cherry Tree.
7:28
Alli Parker (2): And so I wrote something like 25, 20 6,000 words over January, which just shows how much better it was working.
7:35
Alli Parker (2): And then I sent it to her.
7:36
Alli Parker (2): And then yeah, we ended up swapping and pushing a little bit further.
7:39
Alli Parker (2): So we went from August, 2024 and then we were sort of talking about maybe like April, 2025.
7:45
Alli Parker (2): And then we pushed into August, 2025 for until the Red Leaves fall.
7:48
Alli Parker (2): So I had nothing.
7:51
Alli Parker (2): Mark had everything and I had nothing.
7:54
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I may, I may have misrepresented how easily this second book came.
7:59
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, I, I didn't have to worry about having to come up with it, but I still definitely smashed my head against walls and blank pages as much as possible.
8:08
Speaker 14: Okay.
8:08
Speaker 14: So I think the summary of that is no, it's not easier to write your second book.
8:15
Speaker 14: All right, great.
8:16
Speaker 14: That's,
8:16
Alli Parker (2): Hey.
8:17
Alli Parker (2): Okay.
8:17
Alli Parker (2): So can I, can I interject here as well, because Madeline, I know you are working on your second book.
8:23
Alli Parker (2): How have you found the process of working on your second book?
8:26
Speaker 14: Really hard.
8:27
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, it's really,
8:30
Speaker 4: sorry.
8:30
Speaker 4: Listen, it doesn't get.
8:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: No,
8:34
Speaker 14: All right, let's talk about these second books.
8:36
Speaker 14: Um, mark, can you give us the elevator pitch to the Wolf Who Cried Boy.
8:41
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah, absolutely.
8:42
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, I, there there's always that extra little, uh, tension around, um, doing it.
8:47
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: To you though, Madeline, considering like, uh, for people who are listening, Madeline heard my incredibly initial, uh, pitch ages ago where she kind of put me on the spot when I hadn't polished it yet.
8:59
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And it was this rambling thing that, um, at the end of it she said, yeah, um, may maybe you could do this and that, which would basically code for change the entire thing.
9:09
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So, we'll, we'll see if we've, we've picked up or not.
9:12
Madeleine Cleary: I think Mark, I was a little bit more honest.
9:14
Madeleine Cleary: I think I said it wasn't very good.
9:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yes.
9:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah.
9:18
Speaker 4: You know, you're in trouble when someone's voice goes up in Octa, you're like, Oh.
9:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yes.
9:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah.
9:25
Madeleine Cleary: Alright, well give us your new and improved pitch then.
9:27
Madeleine Cleary: I'm excited Mark.
9:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Okay.
9:29
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Rub Rob's hands together.
9:30
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, uh, the Wolf who Cried Boy is, uh, like this mix of big feels, kind of general fiction and prop propulsive thriller.
9:40
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: My super short elevator pitch is Emma Donahue's Room on the Run.
9:44
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, and basically it's about 6-year-old Henry who's always been told his mom is a fairytale star queen, who is lured down to earth by the evil wolf king, who stole her magic and hunts them constantly.
9:57
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, in reality, his mom invented this story though to keep him safe while on the run from his powerful and abusive father.
10:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, when they hear that Henry's grandma is very sick, he and mom have to make it all the way from Gippsland Victoria up to Brisbane without being detected.
10:13
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Henry isn't afraid though.
10:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: He knows his powers will save them.
10:18
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, ally, what do you think?
10:20
Alli Parker (2): I think that's a good pitch.
10:22
Speaker 2: It's better.
10:22
Speaker 2: It's better, yeah.
10:23
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, and it definitely encapsulates the book, like as you were just saying, that I was remembering scenes from the book that I'd sort of hadn't thought about in a while.
10:30
Alli Parker (2): I was like, oh yeah, that's actually, that's true.
10:32
Alli Parker (2): That's so good.
10:33
Alli Parker (2): Yeah.
10:33
Alli Parker (2): So good pitch.
10:34
Alli Parker (2): Well
10:34
Speaker 14: It's,
10:34
Speaker 2: Ah, amazing.
10:36
Speaker 14: really good pitch.
10:37
Speaker 14: Um, and it, it's funny'cause it sounds like really dark and serious and it is, it is a dark book, but there is so much light in it and it's a absolute page turner.
10:48
Speaker 14: So I get that propulsive thriller element.
10:50
Speaker 14: It's a amazing.
10:51
Speaker 14: book.
10:51
Speaker 14: Everyone who I have recommended it to and who has read it has adored it.
10:55
Speaker 14: So if you haven't read it yet, definitely pick it up.
10:58
Speaker 14: Um, mark.
10:59
Speaker 2: thank you.
11:00
Speaker 2: And, and I do note that none of you, um, went up and optiv at any stage in that.
11:05
Speaker 14: that's my honest, honest, Yeah, I'm interested because a lot of people have said the book's ambitious and which is an interesting way to describe, I think.
11:14
Speaker 14: Did you ever, did you feel it was ambitious when you started tackling it?
11:18
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah, well that, that's where a lot of the, um, the, the kind of worry and the, the hard part of the writing comes from of like, um,'cause my, my phrase of it has always been like big swing of, of like, um, you know, uh, the, the, because it's all from a six year old's perspective.
11:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and I didn't want to ever cheat that.
11:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That was the tricky thing, um, of, I just always wanted it to be in his head.
11:43
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and him.
11:45
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Seeing things and understanding things at his level, and also only hearing things that he would naturally hear occasionally.
11:54
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You know, he likes sneaking around, he occasionally overhears things that he doesn't necessarily understand or he misunderstands.
12:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, but on the whole, like, adults just don't explain to six year olds what they're doing.
12:06
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And the, um, the, the big thing that hit me very quickly was that like six year olds don't give a shit about plot.
12:13
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So like, basically he, he's never gonna say what they need to do and where they are and what they're going for, except in his own kind of thing.
12:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Because, um, uh, the, the really.
12:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: The really ambitious part of it, I think, I suppose for me is, um, obviously that voice, the 6-year-old, but it's, it's the multiple voices that are going on at any one time.
12:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So what, what I had to try and do was, um, basically, uh, Henry's got this idea of him being a superhero and learning and he's gonna get his power someday and everything.
12:47
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So his narrative has to fit that.
12:50
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It has to always be, um, coherent, and that has to be an entire story within itself with its own logic.
12:57
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: At the same time, the actual story is all implied and inferred by us, and it's all us passing through what's actually happening based off his mom's reactions and everything like that.
13:09
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So that also has to work.
13:11
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then the, the tricky bit that I tried to add a little bit was, um.
13:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: A bit more of a, um, and, and I, I, this was hard, I didn't wanna overdo this, but this kind of meta commentary of what these ideas of, um, superheroes and fairytales'cause it's, um, sort of aiming to do both, um, what they tend to have to say about our society and particularly, um, gender and, and heroism and bravery and, and all that sort of stuff.
13:40
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, so the, the example I often give is, is, um, like at one stage, Henry's giving the rules for being a superhero.
13:49
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And one of them is that you do what's right.
13:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, uh, no matter who tells you you are wrong, um, and you stick to it and all that sort of stuff like that, which is fantastic if you've got like a clear moral compass.
14:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But if you don't like what's right becomes, you know, a.
14:08
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Coercive control, tyrant, dictator, you know, like that, that kind of aggressive might is right.
14:13
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Kind of, um, idea.
14:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So that, that's the stuff I was kind of trying to let dangle there.
14:19
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So there, there's a lot of, um, things I was wanting to cram in, and particularly my early drafts just seem, um, very scary to me because like the, all those seams are very showing and it's, it's jumping from one tone to another and it's clearly trying to put too much in at once and all this sort of stuff.
14:38
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So that, that was this ambitious and scary part of it for me, I suppose.
14:44
Speaker 14: And when we talk about superheroes as well and the blurring of lines, it, it really blurs with that concept of villains.
14:50
Speaker 14: And villains is a theme in both your novels actually.
14:53
Speaker 14: Um.
14:54
Speaker 2: Hmm.
14:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:55
Speaker 14: Can you talk a little bit about your approach to writing like good baddies and nuanced villains?
15:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah.
15:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Well, I, I think, um, uh, the.
15:07
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: This is kind of the secret to, um, or something I focus on with all my writing, but it, it is that everyone is the hero of the story in their head.
15:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, that, that's pretty classic advice.
15:17
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But the, um, the, I, I don't think there are that many villains in real life, um, who actively say, I am the bad guy.
15:26
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, um, 90% of the time it's either, oh, I'm doing this for the greater good.
15:32
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and they're just rationalizing that, or it's this, this is the way the world is and you just have to be like this in order to survive.
15:39
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And anyone else is naive.
15:40
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like the, those tend to be, I think, the classic mindsets that people are going through.
15:45
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So there's never gonna be mustache twirling there.
15:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: There's, there's going to be very much I'm rationalizing like, um, uh, my behavior and, um, there, there's, um, there's this classic screenwriter thing, um, that I've heard a I had a long time ago, um, that really stuck with me.
16:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um.
16:04
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I think it's a bit too prescriptive and I, I don't do it this way, but I think it's a good little thought, um, is that basically the villain is the hero if they made the wrong choice at one point.
16:18
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, and, and so that, that creates, um, uh, a powerful thematic thing of, of bouncing off.
16:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, you get to see the hero's values if they get twisted and, you know, like all these sorts of things.
16:31
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, uh, with, with Henry, he's, he's kind of, um, he's got this very like, superhero based idea, which is that, you know, punching out the villain, punching out the bad guys, all that sort of stuff like that.
16:45
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like he's, that's funny and cute when he is six.
16:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, and what's the age where that twists and, you know, and he's seeing ev everywhere he's looking.
16:55
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Around because he doesn't have his, um, you know, a, a consistent male figure in his, in his life.
17:02
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: He, he kind of, every male figure he comes across, he's, he's trying to work out, is that me later?
17:07
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Is that, you know, that like, what, what's he looking to for, um, what he can become and who a heroes.
17:13
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So that, that hero villain line, I wanted to always be testing.
17:17
Madeleine Cleary: Hmm.
17:18
Madeleine Cleary: Well, Ali, I know you've got lots to talk about on this subject as well, so do you wanna give us your pitch first, but until the red leaves fall.
17:26
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, the pressure's on now, uh, and until The Red Leaves Fall is a historical fiction novel which follows the story of Emmy Darling, who has always wanted to be a playwright, um, but she's had to put her own ambitions aside to support her husband's Sebastian's career.
17:46
Alli Parker (2): And it's worked.
17:47
Alli Parker (2): Sebastian is currently the hottest playwright of Melbourne's 1957 theater scene, but when, uh, theater and Presario and lead actress, Virginia Van Bell discovers that her favorite scenes in Sebastian's plays are actually scenes that Emmy has written and put in during edits.
18:05
Alli Parker (2): Virginia wonders whether Emmy might like to write for her theater, the Bellevue.
18:09
Alli Parker (2): And when Virginia discovers the truth of Emmy's wartime experience, which is as a Japanese Australian woman, Emmy and her family were arrested by the Australian government and thrown into internment camps for the duration of the war.
18:23
Alli Parker (2): Virginia insists that the play be written about that initially.
18:27
Alli Parker (2): Emmy's really excited to tell her family story, to have this opportunity and literally have a stage of the Melbourne theater to tell the truth of what happened to her family.
18:36
Alli Parker (2): But as the work progresses, she comes to realize that her version of the play and Virginia's version of the play are two very different things.
18:43
Alli Parker (2): And as opening that looms, she wonders whether she might have handed her family story over to exactly the wrong person.
18:50
Alli Parker (2): So it's full of betrayal secrets and lies.
18:54
Alli Parker (2): And ask the question, what happens when you let the truth get in the way of a good story?
18:58
Speaker 14: Hmm, mark your
19:00
Speaker 2: Yes.
19:01
Speaker 2: I love it.
19:02
Speaker 2: I love that.
19:03
Speaker 2: Um, yeah, no,
19:05
Speaker 14: And also you put a lot in as well, Ali, both of you, you and Mark have both put in a lot in your books.
19:11
Speaker 14: You're covering, um, you know, huge issues, race, identity secrets, betrayal, and also this concept of villains as well.
19:22
Speaker 14: Do you think, is Virginia Van Bell a villain?
19:25
Alli Parker (2): Not if you ask her.
19:27
Speaker 14: Exactly.
19:28
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, it's um, it's really, it's interesting because obviously there are two key characters in my book and this isn't, these aren't really spoilers for anyone'cause you can kind of see it pretty early.
19:42
Alli Parker (2): But Sebastian and Virginia are the main antagonists for me in until the Red Leaves fall.
19:48
Alli Parker (2): And you know, like for legal reasons, I have to say that none of these characters are based on anyone that I worked with in television, but they are.
19:59
Alli Parker (2): Maybe archetypes of people who I saw or I saw glimpses of behavior that I then extrapolated out into a more extreme version for characters that I wrote.
20:09
Alli Parker (2): And of course, like Sebastian as a, as a character is not unknown in, in terms of he is a writer who has a woman basically facilitating his writing skill, which is rife throughout history, right?
20:22
Alli Parker (2): It's f Scott Fitzgerald, it's George Orwell.
20:25
Alli Parker (2): It's all sorts of people who really relied on their wife, both creatively and domestically to facilitate their writing practice and help them become the figure in the literary worlds that they are today.
20:37
Alli Parker (2): And so, because the book really is about telling stories and who gets to tell stories and what voices we lose, or maybe the voices we don't look for so much, I thought it was a really interesting dynamic to have.
20:52
Alli Parker (2): Emmy caught between these two very powerful people in her life, her husband and her boss, who seem to want the same thing as her, but they don't actually, but they present it that way.
21:04
Alli Parker (2): This sort of, uh, I guess performative allyship, I guess we would call it in, in the, in the 2020s.
21:12
Alli Parker (2): But, you know, the, the pretense that Virginia has an open heart and is doing wants to tell this story for all of the right reasons.
21:22
Alli Parker (2): And she, Emmy comes to realize that actually what Virginia wants is something that perpetuates stereotype and reinforces a narrative that is very pervasive and very damaging to the people who it's about.
21:33
Alli Parker (2): But because VI Virginia isn't one of those people who it's about, it doesn't matter so much.
21:38
Alli Parker (2): But there's also something in Virginia being a powerful woman in the theater, she's the only woman who has her own theater in Melbourne.
21:43
Alli Parker (2): She's the only woman who holds women up as.
21:47
Alli Parker (2): You know, uh, people who can work in the theater in a really male dominated industry.
21:51
Alli Parker (2): So she's also someone that Emmy looks up to.
21:53
Alli Parker (2): So it's this really delicate balance between how much can you trust what Virginia's saying, because she's experienced and she's been around and she knows what she's doing.
22:03
Alli Parker (2): 'cause she knows her audience versus what Emmy wants of the truth and how you balance that.
22:09
Alli Parker (2): Which is something I think with storytelling, it's, it's a really difficult thing, period.
22:13
Alli Parker (2): I think for any storyteller, there is a line where you go, at what point does this become sensationalized?
22:19
Alli Parker (2): At what point am I just telling the story and I'm reinforcing a stereotype that's damaging?
22:23
Alli Parker (2): Have I done my research in this to sort of diversify this point of view or this opinion?
22:27
Alli Parker (2): Or is this character well enough developed?
22:29
Alli Parker (2): Like these are all questions that we should be asking ourselves as storytellers as well.
22:34
Alli Parker (2): And so.
22:35
Alli Parker (2): I think it's a really interesting conversation'cause that is something that now readers are starting to ask of authors and writers and storytellers.
22:41
Alli Parker (2): And I think it's all completely valid.
22:44
Alli Parker (2): And so it's, I think it's a really interesting discussion.
22:47
Alli Parker (2): And then to frame it in a 1950s context where I think some of the identity politics are a little bit more heightened because it's so fresh post-war, particularly in a, a Japanese and Australian born Japanese perspective.
23:00
Alli Parker (2): So yeah, it's, there's lots of different layers in until the red leaves fall.
23:04
Alli Parker (2): And while you know, it's easy to hate characters, they all, I think, I like to think, anyway, that.
23:12
Alli Parker (2): They all have their reasons for being that way and behaving that way.
23:16
Alli Parker (2): Like a lot of people don't like Sebastian as a character, but he's a man of his time.
23:20
Alli Parker (2): That is what men in, not all men in the fifties, obviously hashtag not all men, but, but like a lot of men were the breadwinners.
23:29
Alli Parker (2): They were really, you know, they were the ones who would, would go out and work.
23:33
Alli Parker (2): And then there were women who were stay at home wives, you know?
23:36
Alli Parker (2): And so the men had so much more power back in the 1950s, but they didn't realize they had the power.
23:41
Alli Parker (2): 'cause that was just the paradigm of the time.
23:44
Alli Parker (2): And so Sebastian doesn't realize his own privilege.
23:46
Alli Parker (2): He's just living his life as he expects it to be lived.
23:49
Alli Parker (2): And he is just having things handed to him, not even on a silver platter, but like on a golden platter.
23:55
Alli Parker (2): You know, he's the perfect candidate for all these things.
23:58
Alli Parker (2): And so Emmy, because of society and because of the expectations and because of her own history and her own trauma about her history.
24:07
Alli Parker (2): She makes herself so small to be palatable to these people until she realizes that actually that's not the way to do it anymore.
24:15
Alli Parker (2): And so it's really important to have those really strong antagonistic characters so that your protagonist can learn those lessons and realize that actually what she wants, she's gonna have to fight for it.
24:27
Alli Parker (2): Because if you make it too easy, then the book's over in like a hundred pages and it's really boring.
24:31
Alli Parker (2): So you gotta have given something to push against.
24:34
Speaker 14: And you do that really masterly you.
24:37
Speaker 14: I, I've always admired the way that you can subtly convey messages, I, think to the reader, um, without, um, being heavy handed in it as well.
24:47
Speaker 14: It's just this beautiful evolution, I think as the story progresses.
24:51
Speaker 14: So, um, it, yeah, it's an amazing book.
24:54
Speaker 14: Um, and my voice did not inflect there.
24:57
Speaker 14: Um, I would.
24:59
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I actually had a question around, around that.
25:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Ever, ever since I, read the book and I, I told you earlier how much I loved it.
25:04
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I was interested like, so with at the Foot of the Cherry Tree, you start with, I'm, I'm sure you have a better phrase for this, but, what could be argued was the single worst event in human history, being the bombing of the people of Nagasaki, Hiroshima.
25:21
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then, you sort of, you work through World War ii, but it's almost, completely focused around, uh, this one couple, and their experiences.
25:31
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And it's, this gigantic starts gigantic honing in kind of thing.
25:36
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: With Until the Reds fall, it, it kind of starts with this very small theater.
25:42
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Production and then kind of, uh, reverses, perspective of, of, going out into all the, all the issues you've, you've already mentioned, but, the others as well that you, you you've put in there that, uh, you could include of, of like legacy and, and history and, and familial, mythology and, you know, all, all these, all these kinds of, uh, colorism, all, all this stuff that, that's kind of there.
26:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, I was kind of thinking as, as, as I got about two thirds of the way through until the redley fall, whether that was something you aimed at from the start, whether that started to happen, whether I'm kind of drawing along bow and being ridiculous and it's not actually there, but, um, you know, that, that, that kind of stuff just hit me of, of,'cause I agree with what Madeline's saying.
26:26
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You're very masterful around doing that stuff.
26:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And it, it felt like a, uh, inversion almost between the two books.
26:32
Alli Parker (2): Uh, thanks guys.
26:34
Alli Parker (2): Uh, we fill this podcast every week for my, for my thanks.
26:39
Alli Parker (2): Um.
26:40
Alli Parker (2): No, it's interesting.
26:40
Alli Parker (2): I hadn't really thought about it like that before.
26:43
Alli Parker (2): And I think what it comes down to is context.
26:45
Alli Parker (2): Like, like broad context as in societal context, because everyone knows Hiroshima, everyone knows that explosion.
26:51
Alli Parker (2): Everyone knows about the atom bomb, right?
26:53
Alli Parker (2): And so I started there because it's such an evocative image and like I've had so many people talk to me about how the opening line of cherry tree still, they still think about it, which is death was in her hair.
27:07
Alli Parker (2): And you don't know what that means until you kind of read through that opening prologue and you realize that actually it refers to the ash of the bomb and what's in that ash.
27:17
Alli Parker (2): And so I think because it's very easy to forget, I think, from a western perspective, that people were affected in that bombing.
27:28
Alli Parker (2): So I wanted to, to kind of.
27:33
Alli Parker (2): Honor that I wanted to honor what my grandmother had been through.
27:36
Alli Parker (2): She survived Hiroshima.
27:37
Alli Parker (2): It's the worst thing that she will ever have gone through in her life, and I would never go through anything that bad ever.
27:45
Alli Parker (2): And so to tell her story and to tell that part of her story, I wanted to A, honor her and honor what she went through.
27:55
Alli Parker (2): And b, when I was writing the, the, the chapter, chapter nine, you know, it was really difficult to write, but I realized that I had all this privilege in being able to look away, and I hadn't come across a lot of fiction that didn't tell that story in a nons sensationalized way.
28:16
Alli Parker (2): And I think it's very easy if you don't have a connection to that history and you lose the personal element of it and you lose the personal connection, it becomes very easy to sensationalize it or to diminish it or to focus all on the guys who drop the bomb or the Ola gay or the whatever.
28:34
Alli Parker (2): It becomes very easy to shift the focus away from what was actually happening on the ground.
28:37
Alli Parker (2): 'cause it is so horrific what it was happening on the ground, right?
28:40
Alli Parker (2): And what these, the Japanese people actually went through.
28:43
Alli Parker (2): And so to kind of, I don't wanna say force, but to basically take my reader and just go, you, you are coming with me.
28:52
Alli Parker (2): Am I going?
28:53
Alli Parker (2): And you can't, you like, you have to read through to get to the end of this chapter.
28:56
Alli Parker (2): Like you can't skip ahead.
28:57
Alli Parker (2): Sorry.
28:58
Alli Parker (2): Was something that I really deliberately chose to do because what it then did is it gave Gordon and Cherry's story a broader context.
29:08
Alli Parker (2): And I think that's an interesting thing about particularly that period, you know.
29:13
Alli Parker (2): You get a lot of European World War II historical fiction books and they're set against the backdrop of like the Blitz or the Battle of Britain or you know, the bombing in Berlin.
29:23
Alli Parker (2): And like all sorts of stuff like that.
29:24
Alli Parker (2): Or even in like the concentration camps and things that was happening over in Europe.
29:28
Alli Parker (2): But I think from a Pacific War perspective, we don't get as much of that in Western media.
29:34
Alli Parker (2): And so I knew that for a lot of readers it would be their first time coming across something like this.
29:39
Alli Parker (2): And so I wanted to be like, you know these two teenagers that you're really in love with?
29:43
Alli Parker (2): 'cause they've been kind of circling around each other and flirting with each other and they're quite charming and it's very cute.
29:48
Alli Parker (2): This is what they went through during the war.
29:50
Alli Parker (2): And this wasn't very cute actually.
29:51
Alli Parker (2): And so these are real people who went through real things.
29:54
Alli Parker (2): And so I wanted to have that.
29:56
Alli Parker (2): And then I think with Until the Red These fall, it was different because I was then introducing people to something that they weren't aware of.
30:04
Alli Parker (2): A lot of people weren't aware of these civilian internment camps in this history that Australia has around them.
30:10
Alli Parker (2): And so.
30:12
Alli Parker (2): I knew to introduce something like that, it was a diff, I had to kind of go character first and then context later, like introduce it more slowly.
30:23
Alli Parker (2): And it was, I guess more of a, a character based question of why is Amy behaving this way?
30:29
Alli Parker (2): Why isn't she telling her husband to shut up?
30:33
Alli Parker (2): And like, why is she not divorcing this guy even though, you know, it's the 1950s incredibly hard to get a divorce, but why is she putting up with this?
30:40
Alli Parker (2): And the reason she's putting up with this is because of this trauma that she has in her past that her whole family went through because she has been painted in this particular way and and tar by this particular brush of Imperial Japan.
30:51
Alli Parker (2): And I in no way wanted to diminish what the Japanese did during World War II because that was just as horrendous as anything else.
30:59
Alli Parker (2): But there were people as there is in every wartime context who had nothing to do with anything, and were just people who got caught up in.
31:08
Alli Parker (2): This mess of war.
31:10
Alli Parker (2): And that is, that is my opinion of war anyway.
31:12
Alli Parker (2): Like war is a mess.
31:13
Alli Parker (2): Innocent people get killed for no good reason at all.
31:16
Alli Parker (2): And so I wanted to present it in that perspective because then really what it becomes is the moment when Emmy reveals the Virginia, the truth of her history, you're actually like in, almost in, you're not in Virginia's perspective, but you're reacting the same way as Virginia to Emmy's story.
31:34
Alli Parker (2): You're going, oh, I didn't know we had internment camps.
31:37
Alli Parker (2): Although Virginia's like, oh yes, I've read about them in the newspapers.
31:40
Alli Parker (2): Of course, of course I knew about them.
31:42
Alli Parker (2): But like it's a surprise.
31:44
Alli Parker (2): It's something that you don't necessarily expect.
31:46
Alli Parker (2): And so I think in Red Leaves I had to start with a character and then broaden out.
31:54
Alli Parker (2): Versus with Cherry Tree, I wanted to, I guess give a context as to what had happened to even lead the Australians into Japan.
32:02
Alli Parker (2): 'cause a lot of people didn't know that as well.
32:03
Alli Parker (2): So you know, Hiroshima obviously.
32:06
Alli Parker (2): Then Nagasaki a few days later and then like maybe a week after that, Ja Japan surrendered.
32:12
Alli Parker (2): And so everyone knows that.
32:14
Alli Parker (2): Everyone knows that context, but they know less of the context.
32:17
Alli Parker (2): So I guess that's, yeah, I don't know in terms of shapes of story, that's sort of why I wanted to lay it out that way.
32:24
Madeleine Cleary: Mark I, I was actually just listening to Ali and thinking that is this something that you also employed in Riding Wolf?
32:31
Madeleine Cleary: Because you start with a fairytale, which is then slowly.
32:35
Madeleine Cleary: Traveled, is that something that was deliberate?
32:38
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah, um, uh, it, it's, I I do try to be character, um, led because I kind of, um, I had that, uh, I still have to be very clear, want to be screenwriting kind of thing.
32:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, uh, so very structure, heavy sort of starting off.
32:56
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, I find that can be quite, um, controlling and cloistering.
33:00
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So I, I try and be as character led as possible.
33:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So with, um, with Henry there, there needed to be this conflict immediately of, um, uh, like he's a 6-year-old.
33:11
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um.
33:13
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Sort of almost seven as he would say.
33:15
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, and he's, he's precocious for his age.
33:17
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I wanted this child who is kind of just on the verge of questioning a lot of this stuff.
33:24
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like he, he believes it, but, um, he's also in that, but why kind of phase of like, um, uh, how does that make sense?
33:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And he's slowly starting to kind of, um, you know, have that moment that we all do where, where we start to realize that people can lie in the world and especially, um, that our parents aren't perfect.
33:46
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So it, it's, um, it, it's, it's very much like, um, I, I I tend to try and make as many complications and conflicts as possible.
33:56
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, and so they, they're obviously because they live on the run because they're living off grid, um, they're automatically in peril or, or something like that.
34:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then they've gotta go this massive distance, um, without being detected.
34:11
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: While people are actively hunting them, um, that that's a very external kind of, um, threat and it's danger and all that sort of stuff.
34:19
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, but it has to be internal as well.
34:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so it's, it's, um, Henry's kind of, um, perception is crumbling and, and he, he's kind of losing some of that stuff and his mom is having to kind of constantly regather these threads and, and, and change the story again.
34:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And shift it.
34:38
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And we're, we are kind of seeing her at breaking point at all times.
34:43
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But, um, he, he doesn't respect that, like children by nature don't sort of go, oh, I can see you're having a tough time, mom.
34:51
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, um, they're not gonna sit back and go, oh, maybe I'll, I'll stop the questions for a second.
34:56
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, there, there is nothing, there is no situation where he, he will not say what's on his mind to an extent, um, uh, until he starts to get confused and then he starts to like.
35:08
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Retreat into his mind a little bit.
35:10
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So it's, it's very much, um, for me it's, it's this starting, um, in deep peril and having this very, uh,'cause the, one of the other tricky points is that he has no agency.
35:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: He, he doesn't affect the world really.
35:27
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: He's, he's, he can't, um, he
35:30
Speaker 13: Well, he does.
35:32
Speaker 13: he
35:32
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: does.
35:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So he leads that.
35:34
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's, Yeah.
35:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah, absolutely.
35:39
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and so that was what was tricky of trying to create those situations where a 6-year-old can affect the world and also, um, having him seem like he's trying to do something, even if we know it's futile or, or like,'cause he's, he's constantly active and he wants to be this superhero, all that sort of stuff like that.
36:00
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So it's, it's balancing those moments.
36:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I, I do.
36:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Often go back to basics all the time of, of sort of like, what does the character want all the time?
36:12
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, having this character who it doesn't necessarily always matter what he wants as to how it's going to play out in the real world, that that was an extra challenge.
36:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, uh, and then yeah, just inventing, um, it's, it's, I I find it hard to talk about the, um, this aspect of it without it, it both, um, possibly sounding incredibly pretentious, but also, uh, maybe making it seem, um, a bit drier as a story.
36:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But the, the, um, the, the characters, uh, especially the male characters, um.
36:56
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I wanted them to be three dimensional.
36:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I wanted them to be actual people, but they are also, um, broader representations of archetypes and um, and kind of, um, often very problematic archetypes of, of like, um, they, they are, uh, this, this part of Henry looking around, um, for heroes.
37:20
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And what does he see be because the, the, um, uh, the big aspect of heroism that kind of fascinated me a little bit was that kind of, um, comic book, superhero idea of heroism versus real heroism.
37:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like,'cause it, it is that idea of standing up and punching, um, something in that, fixing the situation.
37:41
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and what, like, an example I always like to think of is, is sort of, um.
37:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: We, we often frame, um, the fight against racism as standing up to the person yelling a slur on the bus, and like ideally everyone's doing that.
37:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, obviously there is an element of danger to that and I, I will be generous maybe and say there is a bit of, um, bravery to that.
38:08
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, but it doesn't fix anything like the, the actual methods of fixing racism are, um, institutional.
38:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: They are showing up again and again and, um, uh, probably having very small gains fighting against institutional oppression.
38:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: These systems are very, very smart and they're all encompassing and they don't let you kind of hit at one aspect and it's a lifetime and you might get a tiny gain and no one's gonna notice and you probably won't get a pat on the back.
38:40
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And that aspect of standing up to the person on the bus.
38:46
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: a very masculine idea.
38:47
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I think it's the, I stood up, I punched out the, um, the villain and I got the pat on the back and the cheer and all was well with the world.
38:55
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And the aspect of the fight against the institutional side is overwhelmingly done by women and it's, it's much more community focused.
39:04
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, and that, that kind of thing was just, um, something that I wanted to have.
39:09
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Henry, he, he can't think in those terms.
39:12
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: He can't realize those terms, but he does start to question of like, what is this aspect of real heroism and real sacrifice as well?
39:23
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, because, uh, a lot of these people are putting their bodies on the line basically.
39:29
Madeleine Cleary: Mark, I'm not surprised you were banging your head against the wall while writing this book because just trying to grapple with all these things and from telling it from the perspective as a 6-year-old and conveying all this, is it really, really incredible.
39:41
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I wanna talk to you both now about your experiences publishing, uh, your second books.
39:49
Madeleine Cleary: Um, I'm interested, and Mark, maybe we'll just stay with you.
39:52
Madeleine Cleary: What, what did you learn about from publishing your first book Hit Women's Guide to Reducing Household Debt?
39:58
Madeleine Cleary: What did you take from that into your second book launch?
40:04
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah, I think this is gonna sound ridiculous considering how we started this, but, um, polish your pitch, uh, like learn, learning those key points.
40:15
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Learning, learning how to, um, communicate.
40:18
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and, um, uh, the, the, the balance is really tricky to get of like, um, uh, when you are writing it, when you are, um, uh, kind of thinking about it.
40:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You have to be massively artistic and you have to sacrifice everything for that and your expression of it and everything like that.
40:43
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then when it comes out as a book, whether, whether you want to admit this to yourself and, and it is up to you how much you engage with this, but this is an industry and, um, you can choose whether you treat your book as an object or a commercial kind of property.
41:02
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, that is absolutely up to you.
41:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: What's not up to you is the fact that everyone else will treat it like a commercial, um, product.
41:10
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And you need to be okay in understanding that.
41:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, if you aren't going to give those, um, tools to kind of books sellers and all that sort of stuff, those easy ways to um, kind of sell your product, all that sort of stuff like that, then you can't really.
41:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Be complaining if, um, people aren't able to see it as a product.
41:31
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So I, I think, um, uh, that, that's a, that's a tricky thing to be into because um, you know, capitalism and artistic expression are like diametrically opposed.
41:42
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It's very hard to switch your mind.
41:44
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, but I think if you are able to kind of go, okay, I was in artist mode.
41:51
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I wasn't thinking about, um, how this is actually selling.
41:55
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I was just trying to make the truest, most beautiful book I could and have these characters be real.
42:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's done now because this book is printed and I'm not gonna be able to change it.
42:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I need to now think about like, how is a bookseller genuinely looking at this?
42:11
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And um, like I, I try and think in perspective when I'm writing a lot.
42:15
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I try and think of how a character would genuinely feel, even if their experiences outside of me try and apply a little bit of that to the actual selling itself of like, um, you know, both of you have extensive experience as booksellers.
42:30
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and you, you'd know this way better than me, but like if you genuinely, if it wasn't your book.
42:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You didn't have this massive history of like all the emotion you put into it and how much you know, is there.
42:43
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's true of pretty much every book there.
42:46
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, the fiction definitely and a lot of the nonfiction as well.
42:51
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like if you were to walk into a bookstore and you literally just saw that book, like what is making someone interested in it and how are you getting past that gap?
43:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: We all know how much stuff is getting thrown at us all the time and, um, being able to step back.
43:08
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, it's a really tricky industry so it can kind of give you a little bit of realism a little bit.
43:15
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, and he says that like having no actual realism about his perception, but you, you can't see outside yourself.
43:23
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Completely.
43:24
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But it can help you sort of sit back a little bit and go like, okay, well I do have to realize that I decided to make this book.
43:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That was a little bit tricky.
43:34
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It was a little bit thorny.
43:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It wasn't easy to digest into one genre.
43:39
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It that the characters are making some decisions that might not make everyone feel good, and that's not something that typically sells blockbuster kind of thing.
43:49
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So like what's, what's the, what's the gap?
43:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And like I do think there are some elements of my book that are like, yes, they are page Tony, they are kind of like, um, book club kind of stuff there.
44:02
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It's big heart, you know, all that sort of stuff like that.
44:04
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Not necessarily talking about my book, but, um, think of those elements that if it was someone else's piece, you, you would, um, would attract you and just elevate them and push them and, and use those as your tools so that, that is something that, um.
44:22
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Probably helped a lot, a lot of it's learning from the experts.
44:26
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, you know, other writers, you know, ally was a year ahead of me, um, sort of in publishing her first book.
44:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, that was really helpful'cause we, we'd had multiple chats where I, I kind of got a sense of what was sort of coming and, um, that, and, and lots of other authors who've, who've helped me also my publisher obviously that, that sort of stuff all going into the soup of it.
44:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, you're just a little bit more clear-eyed I think on the second book.
44:52
Madeleine Cleary: Hmm.
44:53
Madeleine Cleary: I love that.
44:55
Madeleine Cleary: I love that you have to split your brain and that gives permission to split your brain too.
44:59
Madeleine Cleary: I think as creatives, we always cringe when we think we have to put our marketing hat on, but do away with the cringe.
45:05
Madeleine Cleary: That's 2026 goal, I think.
45:07
Madeleine Cleary: Ally, what do you think?
45:10
Alli Parker (2): It is interesting because I totally agree with what Mark is saying, particularly about booksellers.
45:15
Alli Parker (2): 'cause booksellers are the front line, obviously they're the people who put the book in into people's hands.
45:20
Alli Parker (2): Obviously you've got your your publisher's sale team and they get it into various people's hands.
45:24
Alli Parker (2): But then there's another step after that as well.
45:27
Alli Parker (2): And so I think for Until the Red Leaves fall, I was a little bit more prepared with the way that they could sell it.
45:35
Alli Parker (2): And so I would go in when I was doing my bookstore visits and they'd be like, tell me about your book.
45:39
Alli Parker (2): And I was like, oh, well basically it's yellow face meets the seven husbands of Evelyn Hugo said in the 1950s Melbourne theater scene.
45:45
Alli Parker (2): And they go, oh my God.
45:47
Alli Parker (2): And they could just see it immediately and they're like, cool.
45:49
Alli Parker (2): Easy.
45:50
Alli Parker (2): They don't even have to have read the book then.
45:52
Alli Parker (2): Someone comes in and goes, I want something a bit like Evelyn Hugo.
45:54
Alli Parker (2): And they're like, oh my God, read this.
45:56
Alli Parker (2): You know?
45:56
Alli Parker (2): And so it just makes it really easy and keeping a pitch really short, like you really only wanna be doing maybe like three sentence pitches to, to booksellers.
46:04
Alli Parker (2): 'cause they've got so much to do and they're taking 15 minutes out of it, your, their day to let you sign all your books and then post for photos, put it up on the social media, do all the amazing stuff that they do.
46:15
Alli Parker (2): But they are busy people and they do sell hundreds of books a day.
46:18
Alli Parker (2): So I think going in, knowing how to market it and how they can sell it and who, what the audience is, is a really useful thing.
46:29
Alli Parker (2): And something that I figured out pretty quickly during actually the publicity of Cherry Tree, because I'm not a big intro, uh, extrovert.
46:38
Alli Parker (2): I'm much more introverted.
46:40
Alli Parker (2): I would much rather be at home with a book and my cat on the couch than going outside.
46:45
Alli Parker (2): If you ever cancel plans on me, I will probably be relieved.
46:47
Alli Parker (2): So all good.
46:49
Alli Parker (2): But so I, um.
46:52
Alli Parker (2): I realized how draining events are really quick with Cherry tree really, really quick.
46:57
Alli Parker (2): And, and so I realized that what I needed to do was actually create a, an a persona.
47:05
Alli Parker (2): So I have a persona, which I call Author Alley.
47:09
Alli Parker (2): And so basically when I'm getting ready for an event, I'm putting on my costume of author Allie and author Allie is calm, collected.
47:18
Alli Parker (2): She smiles a lot.
47:20
Alli Parker (2): She takes her time to answer questions.
47:23
Alli Parker (2): She's also not afraid to say no in a very diplomatic and polite way.
47:27
Alli Parker (2): If there is a question that she doesn't want to answer, she doesn't blank.
47:30
Alli Parker (2): She just says, actually, I'd rather not answer that.
47:32
Alli Parker (2): Could we try another question?
47:34
Alli Parker (2): Uh, and and she's very gracious and she has time for everyone who comes up and says, hi, your book sounds amazing, or, I loved your book and can you sign 17 of these for me?
47:44
Alli Parker (2): Or whatever.
47:46
Alli Parker (2): And so it was, that was really useful for me.
47:48
Alli Parker (2): And I actually found what that helped me with is that I was less exhausted after events because it was like at the end of the event, I could take Author Ally off and I could just be normal, Allie.
47:58
Alli Parker (2): And so I was definitely a lot better prepared the second time around for how draining the events were for me.
48:05
Alli Parker (2): Um, I think during some of the publicity about the foot of the cherry tree, I, I lost my voice after an event and so I knew that I needed microphones.
48:15
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I can't project my voice really loudly without microphones, so I always request a microphone, like just little things like that.
48:20
Alli Parker (2): And then things like, and I think I actually said this on my last episode of the pod, but it was just like, or maybe I was, maybe this is even something that I was talking to you about Mark, but, um.
48:32
Alli Parker (2): In that period of when in the lead up to your book coming out and then a couple of weeks after your book coming out, you basically have to think of almost yourself like an athlete.
48:40
Alli Parker (2): You need to be eating well, you need to be sleeping well, you need to be drinking lots of water, staying hydrated, exercise, go to the gym, give yourself like the most amount of room you can to be operating at the peak level because you cannot half-ass it.
48:55
Alli Parker (2): Because audience will see straight through it and they will go to their social media and they'll be like, that was a really weird event with Ally Parker last night.
49:02
Alli Parker (2): Did anyone else notice that?
49:04
Alli Parker (2): Thankfully that has never happened, but it's just like if you are having an off day and you can't act through it, like you can't like pretend like everything is fine.
49:14
Alli Parker (2): The show must go on type vibes.
49:16
Alli Parker (2): Like you'll, you'll struggle.
49:18
Alli Parker (2): I think even maybe Madeline, we did an event, I think it might've been my event actually.
49:23
Madeleine Cleary: was just going to
49:25
Alli Parker (2): And I started, I was, I think I was a little bit sick and so I started coughing'cause I was overheating when we were talking'cause the room was really hot.
49:33
Alli Parker (2): And so I just had to like, I had to kind of muscle through.
49:36
Alli Parker (2): But like, I, I got through it.
49:38
Alli Parker (2): Eventually I sort of managed to cool myself down with water and everything.
49:40
Alli Parker (2): 'cause we had water on the desk obviously.
49:42
Speaker 14: So I remember, um, because, so for context, we were at, uh, books in bars at Knox City.
49:48
Speaker 14: Um, and I was interviewing Ali and I remember, uh, so Ali had had an intense publicity week leading up to this event.
49:56
Speaker 14: You had just gotten sick as well.
49:58
Speaker 14: You'd been sick for a few days, you'd been traveling into state.
50:01
Speaker 14: Um, when I saw you, it was like 6:00 PM or something.
50:05
Speaker 14: You hadn't eaten anything.
50:07
Speaker 14: Uh, so you weren't following your advice.
50:09
Speaker 4: I wasn't.
50:10
Speaker 14: So I think we, we bought you chips and made sure you eat chips.
50:13
Speaker 4: Yeah.
50:13
Speaker 4: So the bookseller's mom bought me chips.
50:17
Speaker 14: And then Pat bought another, an extra
50:18
Speaker 4: yeah.
50:19
Speaker 4: And then Pat, well Pat was great that night.
50:21
Speaker 4: Yeah.
50:21
Speaker 4: It was so good.
50:22
Speaker 4: It was great.
50:23
Speaker 14: But I remember you were amazing.
50:25
Speaker 14: Like you there.
50:27
Speaker 14: This event, there was like 60, 70 people you put on Author Alley Persona.
50:31
Speaker 14: And then I remember you had a large signing queue.
50:35
Speaker 14: You were, you know, chatting away.
50:37
Speaker 14: And then as soon as the last person left, I could just see your shoulders deflate and you were like, I need to go stare at a wall.
50:44
Speaker 14: And so I think that's an important lesson.
50:45
Speaker 14: Stare at a wall.
50:46
Speaker 14: Give yourself time to stare at a wall.
50:48
Alli Parker (2): Yeah, yeah.
50:49
Alli Parker (2): I say, I say to my publicist, I'm like, I need a potato day.
50:53
Alli Parker (2): I can't do a back to back events.
50:55
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I need a day just to sit on my couch and like just stare into nothing.
50:59
Alli Parker (2): And it's not even like I'm even doom scrolling or anything.
51:01
Alli Parker (2): Like I'll have a TV on for some kind of audio stimulation, but like, I just need to literally just be a potato on the couch and just let all my nervous system come back down to earth because it's, it's, it's a big
51:15
Madeleine Cleary: And I don't ever sleep after events as well.
51:17
Madeleine Cleary: I don't know about you both, but I find it really difficult.
51:20
Madeleine Cleary: So that's.
51:20
Madeleine Cleary: compounding as well.
51:22
Alli Parker (2): I think the other thing that's been a little bit easy for me this time around is a, I've known what to expect.
51:27
Alli Parker (2): So like, I think, uh, so on my, a couple of days after publication for Cherry Tree, I went and did bookstore visits with my sales rep in Melbourne.
51:37
Alli Parker (2): Jackie, shout out Jackie.
51:38
Alli Parker (2): I don't know if she listens to the pod, but I'm gonna
51:40
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
51:40
Madeleine Cleary: Hi Jackie.
51:41
Madeleine Cleary: We love Jackie.
51:42
Alli Parker (2): We do love Jackie.
51:43
Alli Parker (2): Jackie's the best, but, so we did bookstore visits for Cherry Tree and we did nine bookstores in a day.
51:48
Alli Parker (2): That's a lot of bookstores, that's a lot of talking, as I said, particularly then I know, like I know from that day my voice doesn't do that well.
51:57
Alli Parker (2): And so then when we did Red Leaves, we did 11 bookstores in a day.
52:01
Alli Parker (2): But I knew, so I had already hydrated really well.
52:03
Alli Parker (2): The night before, I had water with me.
52:06
Alli Parker (2): I got a tea.
52:07
Alli Parker (2): I didn't drink it while it was super hot.
52:08
Alli Parker (2): I waited for it to cool down to keep my vocal cords warm.
52:12
Alli Parker (2): When we were in the car, I was speaking quietly to try and rest my voice as much as possible.
52:16
Alli Parker (2): And so it was just like a day where I just knew what I needed to do to protect my voice.
52:20
Alli Parker (2): And my voice was better because of that.
52:23
Alli Parker (2): But we hit two more bookstores that day than we did previously, and I was basically, I had no voice at the end of it.
52:28
Alli Parker (2): And so it is just one of those things where you can just adjust your I, because it is, it is a performance essentially.
52:36
Alli Parker (2): Like you, you become a public figure when you put a book out.
52:39
Alli Parker (2): And so people come and they expect a certain thing from you.
52:42
Alli Parker (2): And you obviously, like, depending on your brand, obviously brand, the Mark and Pots Russell Brand, the Ali Parker brand, the Madeleine Cleary brand, we all have very different brands.
52:51
Alli Parker (2): Not that different actually.
52:52
Alli Parker (2): We're all, we're all pretty similar, but you know, like people expect certain things and that's why people send you beautiful things like emails and they tell you about how your book impacted them and they tell you their story and how it's connected in whatever way.
53:06
Alli Parker (2): And so.
53:07
Alli Parker (2): I don't ever wanna give that up because I think that's such a beautiful way of seeing how your art has connected with other people.
53:14
Alli Parker (2): But then I know that there are things that I have to do to protect myself, otherwise, I, I can't do that.
53:20
Alli Parker (2): And I know there are other authors who really pour themselves into events a lot.
53:26
Alli Parker (2): And there are other authors who hate doing events and don't wanna do it.
53:29
Alli Parker (2): And it's, whatever you want is absolutely fine, but it's very hard.
53:34
Alli Parker (2): Then if you're not doing events, it's very hard then to get the word out about your book.
53:38
Alli Parker (2): And that's, unfortunately, you know, authors have to do a lot of the legwork in this day and age.
53:43
Alli Parker (2): It's not like it used to be 70, 80 years ago where there was one review in a paper like gangbusters.
53:50
Speaker 14: Hmm.
53:51
Speaker 14: that's true.
53:52
Speaker 14: Well, all right.
53:53
Speaker 14: There's already so many amazing tips there.
53:56
Speaker 14: Um, before we finish, I wanna ask about screenwriting.
53:59
Speaker 14: Do you, and you are both, so you're both have a past history in screenwriting.
54:04
Speaker 14: Do you have any good tips for what you've taken from screenwriting into novel writing?
54:11
Speaker 14: Mark, I might start with you.
54:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Yeah.
54:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, so I think, um, uh, I say, I say this constantly, so I, I apologize to anyone who's heard me talk about it before, but I, I, I cannot drill it in enough.
54:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It's that it's that classic three questions thing of, um, what does a character want?
54:30
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: What's standing in their way?
54:31
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: What are they willing to do to get past it?
54:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, that, that just always, if I have every kind of character looking at that stuff, it, um, it makes it feel very active.
54:42
Speaker 14: Okay.
54:43
Speaker 14: Go through that slowly please.
54:44
Speaker 14: Because this was amazing assistance when I had a block in my novel.
54:49
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Oh, fantastic.
54:50
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I'm glad to hear that.
54:50
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: 'cause it, it really did help me.
54:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I think the original ready, um, the, the original kind of questions come from Aristotle.
54:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That sounds so much more wanky than, it's because almost
55:02
Speaker 4: lean into it.
55:03
Speaker 4: Mark, you are the least pretentious person I know.
55:05
Speaker 4: Just lean into it.
55:07
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Well, it, it comes from poetics, which is like, I think it takes you about 35 minutes to read.
55:12
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: If, if you want a really good, um, quick dissection of it, Aaron Sorkin.
55:17
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uses it all the time.
55:18
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And he, he has some videos where he just talks about it.
55:21
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But you are, you are basically asking, three questions.
55:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: The, the original advice I think is, is based around your main character, but I actually find it much more helpful if you do it for every single character You ask, what do they want?
55:34
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: What's standing in their way, and what are they willing to do to get past it?
55:38
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so you have that go, um, for every single scene you, it's, it's a great idea for finding your story in general, but like if you have it every single scene, then that second one, um, of like what's standing in their way.
55:54
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Ideally, a lot of the time that's another character, um, or another character's want.
56:00
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so immediately you've got two characters in relationship.
56:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And maybe that's conflict.
56:05
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Maybe it means they have to work together.
56:07
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Maybe it's sort of like, um, your hero is like, I want this and um, I'm definitely gonna get it.
56:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then they meet this other character who's stronger than them, either mentally, physically, whatever it is, emotionally.
56:20
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so suddenly they have to go around that character.
56:23
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: They change what they want or they have to develop the, they try and push through, but they get beaten back.
56:30
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so they have to develop the skills to kind of, um, be better next time.
56:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And so next time they face that same character, their want has evolved a little bit, but they've got now the skills and the emotional fortitude to face it.
56:44
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: 'cause this comes from very mythological sort of sounding storytelling.
56:48
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But, um, it's much more powerful to think of it as an internal kind of journey rather than an external journey that if, if you keep throwing plot at stuff, um, it, which is a bit of a screenwriter kind of thing, sometimes it, it just gets really annoying and frustrating and, and, um, people can feel it if you start from inside the character.
57:10
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: With their want.
57:12
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And then you throw in a couple of plot things here and there.
57:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You, you, I actually find that they kind of build the plot because they're just constantly having that momentum and forward movement and ah, suddenly there's this other character here and we're bouncing off each other and Oh, okay, that character, um, we kind of have the same want, but it's a little bit different.
57:30
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So do I need to change my thing or what?
57:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, and you learn about the characters and, and so those, those kind of base, um, understanding,'cause I think, I think one thing.
57:43
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That broadly speaking, screenwriting has that, um, novel writing doesn't is a formal description of craft.
57:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: So, um, a lot of novelists, um, can do amazing, astounding things with character.
57:59
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: They've developed those skills, but they can't necessarily describe what they're doing.
58:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and there is a, a negative side of overemphasizing craft because you start to make things sound stale and describe things in a way that isn't helpful.
58:14
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But being able to talk the same language as someone else and talk about these turning points, rising action, falling action, all that sort of stuff like that is really helpful.
58:24
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And, um, you don't want to rely too much on those structures and templates.
58:29
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: They are really problematic, but understanding like.
58:35
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I'm stuck.
58:36
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I have no idea what's going on and going like, oh, well, you know, some very classic advice is that it's because your character hasn't, you know, faced the midpoint, hasn't, you know, all, all these belly of the whale, like all, all these kinds of terms that screenwriters have drilled into them.
58:53
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It, it does help.
58:55
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like it, it can kind of help in that very wayward feeling that we get of being lost at sea.
58:59
Alli Parker (2): I would totally agree with that.
59:01
Alli Parker (2): I think, um, one of the really great strengths of of screenwriting and screenwriting theory is, is structure.
59:07
Alli Parker (2): And it's interesting, mark, what you were just saying there about like not throwing too much plot at them, you know, make coming in added an internal journey for your character.
59:18
Alli Parker (2): Because often what happens is if you throw too much plot at a character, they become passive because things are just happening to them.
59:26
Alli Parker (2): And so like, there's a lot of talk as well about active versus passive protagonists, and you always want your protagonist to be active.
59:33
Alli Parker (2): And so really what that is, is something happens, your character makes a decision on how they're gonna react to that.
59:41
Alli Parker (2): And because of that choice that they have made, something else then happens because of that.
59:46
Alli Parker (2): It's not, it's an and then.
59:49
Alli Parker (2): Your character makes a decision and then this happens.
59:51
Alli Parker (2): Like it is a causality, the cause and effect of structural screenwriting, and that's something that I use a lot in my books.
59:59
Alli Parker (2): It, it helps with pace.
1:00:00
Alli Parker (2): I have read a lot of books on screenwriting.
1:00:03
Alli Parker (2): I love a midpoint.
1:00:04
Alli Parker (2): Midpoints are my favorite thing ever.
1:00:06
Alli Parker (2): Um, and so yeah, I think, I think definitely structure is something that screenwriting has given me.
1:00:15
Alli Parker (2): Like, I can't, I can't write, I can't write like you do Madeline.
1:00:18
Alli Parker (2): Like I'm in awe of the fact that you just kind of feel your way through and off you go.
1:00:22
Alli Parker (2): You're just like, yeah, yeah, let's just go down here today.
1:00:25
Alli Parker (2): I can't do that.
1:00:26
Alli Parker (2): I need to, not that I need to plan everything out, but I need to know kind of where I'm going and what I'm moving through.
1:00:32
Alli Parker (2): Because when I have a framework to work within it, actually it feels more creative to me because I know what paints it.
1:00:40
Alli Parker (2): I've got on my paint palette to play with, and so then I can.
1:00:45
Alli Parker (2): Envisage things more.
1:00:47
Alli Parker (2): Um, but yeah, I think definitely structure is, is my biggest strength.
1:00:53
Alli Parker (2): And then dialogue as well is something else that I've had a lot of compliments on.
1:00:57
Alli Parker (2): People tell me that my dialogue's really good and I think that comes from screenwriting as well because obviously you're imagining people saying it.
1:01:04
Alli Parker (2): I often read my entire book out loud to myself as well, just to in a kind of at a copy edit stage.
1:01:12
Alli Parker (2): And like I used to do that just with dialogue.
1:01:14
Alli Parker (2): 'cause the big print, the action in a a screenplay doesn't really matter so much as long as it makes sense.
1:01:20
Alli Parker (2): But when it's a book, obviously people are reading the pages, so it all needs to be coherent.
1:01:26
Alli Parker (2): Um, but yeah, it's, there's nothing, nothing quite like when a character kind of introduces himself fully formed and you're like, oh, hey, are we gonna hang out for the next couple of years?
1:01:36
Alli Parker (2): That's nice.
1:01:37
Alli Parker (2): And I think I have that a little bit more with books than I do with screenplays, because obviously screenplays you create someone and then you give it away to someone else.
1:01:45
Alli Parker (2): You give it away to an actor who then puts their own spin on it and does things.
1:01:50
Alli Parker (2): And I've definitely had moments before where I've watched, I've watched an, the final broadcast edit of a episode of something that I've written.
1:01:58
Alli Parker (2): I'm like, oh, they said it like that.
1:02:00
Alli Parker (2): That's not, that's not how they were supposed to say it.
1:02:03
Alli Parker (2): So it's nice to kind of have, you know, in a, in a, a manuscript sense, in a, in a novel sense, to be able to kind of pull all of the strings and, and create it Exactly.
1:02:16
Alli Parker (2): As you want, knowing then that a reader is then gonna bring their own inflection and perspectives and, and their own biases and knowledge to something and, and go from there.
1:02:27
Alli Parker (2): But I think, um, there's something really magic about writing novels versus writing screenplays is though the screenplay is a, a collaborative document is you write, you write the blueprint, and then everyone else puts their spin on it.
1:02:40
Alli Parker (2): Whereas with a book, it's not a blueprint, it is the final copy that you're writing.
1:02:44
Alli Parker (2): And so, I mean, that's something really scary about writing manuscripts, but it's also something really freeing as well.
1:02:52
Alli Parker (2): 'cause I, I know that my book's particularly like to make them as TV shows or movies.
1:02:57
Alli Parker (2): They're very expensive and it would take a long time and a lot of money.
1:03:00
Alli Parker (2): So at least I know whatever happens.
1:03:03
Alli Parker (2): Also, there are bad adaptations.
1:03:05
Alli Parker (2): We've all seen bad adaptations of our favorite books.
1:03:08
Alli Parker (2): Like I know that whatever happens, my version of at the Foot of the Cherry Tree are my version of Until the Rods Fall.
1:03:14
Alli Parker (2): There, they're in the world, they exist, people can find them.
1:03:18
Alli Parker (2): Whereas, you know, sometimes with the TV show, especially if it's an original TV show or original film, sometimes you don't always get what you want and you just have to kind of make it work in the edit and hope that people don't notice.
1:03:30
Alli Parker (2): Notice the seams.
1:03:31
Alli Parker (2): And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
1:03:33
Alli Parker (2): But yeah, it's um, it's definitely a different, different sandpit to play in, even though you're playing with similar toys.
1:03:41
Madeleine Cleary: Oh.
1:03:41
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I, I just say as well, like,'cause I, I find, um, uh, Madeline one, one of the things I've loved, and I think I've said to you before about butterfly, women, like,'cause one, one of the reasons I, um.
1:03:52
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, stick so close on that want and motivation is, I find like if you, if it's very clear what a character wants in a, in one scene, what they're trying to do, you can add a million other things.
1:04:03
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You can throw in, like clear tone, uh, like, uh, tone changes, like all these extra thematic things.
1:04:09
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, and the, the reader still feels grounded enough because they know what someone's trying to do With your book, like as I was reading it, um, there'd be all these like, like, because it's such a mix of, um, uh, genres and, and tones and all that sort of stuff.
1:04:25
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: There, just as something new is coming in, like I'd sort of be reading and I was like, oh, I don't know if it's gonna be able to handle this.
1:04:31
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Like, you, you, you, you, you've got something you, and then every single time you'd pull it back and, and weave it in.
1:04:37
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: And the fact that you did that, as you were saying of like kind of, um, that, um, is it they, they describe it as the headlights, whatever.
1:04:44
Madeleine Cleary: Oh yeah.
1:04:45
Madeleine Cleary: Yep.
1:04:46
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Where you're just seeing a little bit ahead sort of thing like that, that, that I found remarkable and, and kind of wonderful about your book.
1:04:53
Speaker 14: Oh, well that's interesting you say that, mark, because I mean, reflecting on both of your comments, I.
1:05:01
Speaker 14: I started this novel, I started an a novel, uh, a year or so ago, and I had to put it down because what I realized is that I was starting with a plot first, and it was really, I was just, it was going all over the place.
1:05:14
Speaker 14: Um, I was just throwing in random things and, and I realized that I actually didn't really know much about the character.
1:05:20
Speaker 14: I was just trying to burn everything down just to make it interesting.
1:05:26
Speaker 14: Um, you know, I think Stephen King says that just if things start flailing, like burn something.
1:05:31
Speaker 14: So I was like burning every second thing.
1:05:33
Speaker 14: Um, and I realized that it was all.
1:05:36
Speaker 14: Wrong.
1:05:37
Speaker 14: And, and because the, that character hadn't come to me fully formed, like in The Butterfly Women, whereas those characters, those women were really clear in my mind.
1:05:45
Speaker 14: And so flipping that and then starting with Character First has helped me better understand the novel.
1:05:51
Speaker 14: And so, yeah, I think I've said on this podcast before, like, mark and I had a, a beer after the Dandenong Rangers Lit Fest.
1:05:59
Speaker 14: And you asked me these three questions'cause I felt stuck and it was amazing.
1:06:03
Speaker 14: It just helped find that clarity.
1:06:05
Speaker 14: Um, so while I don't necessarily plot or have that framework, um, I, I do think that coming from it from a character first perspective has really helped at least provide the beats.
1:06:20
Speaker 14: But I must say for my book.
1:06:21
Speaker 14: two, I did end up halfway writing it and then realizing I had to plot out the rest of that.
1:06:27
Speaker 14: So it was a half, half 50,
1:06:30
Speaker 12: Come to the dark side.
1:06:33
Speaker 14: Because who knows who knew crime actually you might need to plot.
1:06:37
Speaker 14: Um, Okay.
1:06:38
Speaker 14: we are well over time.
1:06:40
Speaker 14: I have a thousand more questions for both of you, so we'll have to go and have a beer, I think, Um, and chat through those.
1:06:46
Speaker 14: Before we do go though, we'll always finish on, um, asking you your top tip for writers.
1:06:53
Speaker 14: Um, and I'm gonna switch the order this time.
1:06:56
Speaker 14: I think I started Ellie first at the very start.
1:06:59
Speaker 14: So Mark, you go first.
1:07:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Okay.
1:07:01
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, so my, my general top tip is the one I, I said the first time, um, uh, on the podcast, which is like that being honest with yourself, being honest about, like ex super honest about how a character acts, all that sort of stuff like that.
1:07:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, so that you're not, ever cheating and, and be honest about the book being ready, all these sorts of things.
1:07:21
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's still my generalized top tip, but.
1:07:24
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I've got a, to change it up, I've got an incredibly concrete one for, all the writers out there of a movie you should watch, I think.
1:07:33
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: 'Cause I, I actually re-watched this, a couple of days ago and re remembered that this is a big part of what made me obsess about perspective so much of every character's perspective.
1:07:45
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It's a film called Marette, which is, um, the Kenneth Lanigan film, um, famously troubled production.
1:07:51
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I think they filmed it in 2006 and it didn't come out till 2011.
1:07:55
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Uh, it's an APAC when it's, it's, it's an amazing thing.
1:07:58
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It, a reviewer I'd read about it said before that, um, or a critic was talking about how you could, um, you could take the perspective of any single character and it was holistic.
1:08:15
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That sounds like a, a weird sort of thing, but when you watch it, it is.
1:08:19
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Um, if you can watch the American edit, which is three hours long as opposed to two hours 40 or something like that, it, it is, um, it would've been on a bunch of people's best film of, um, the century list that people were doing, the quarter century.
1:08:34
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But basically it's about anapac When this teenager sort of, she goes, she experiences something quite traumatic that creates a, um, uh, kind of conflict in her mind of, um, what's the moral right thing to do.
1:08:47
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's, that's a very generalized, vague thing to say.
1:08:50
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: But basically she's in New York and it has this thing of, even as she's walking down the street, you'll be hearing conversations with, um, with other just random passes by, they'll be in a diner and there'll be, you'll hear the conversation of the other people talking first.
1:09:08
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: I mean this as literally as I can, you could follow any single one of those characters, even from that snippet of dialogue.
1:09:16
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: You hear it and you're like, okay, if I stuck with them long enough, I would experience what, um, something as dramatic as what Margaret?
1:09:26
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Oh, sorry.
1:09:27
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: As, um, her name's Lisa.
1:09:28
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: It's about a poet, but, um, but basically Lisa is gonna experience every single character has a point of view.
1:09:34
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Every single character is kind of right in arguments.
1:09:38
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's another classic kind of bit of advice, but, um, I cannot guar, uh, so recommended enough for writers to look at and just sort of see how powerful it can be if you just have three dimensional characters populating your entire work.
1:09:56
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: That's a very long, rambling thing, but I, I think it's a stunning, stunning film.
1:10:00
Mark Mupotsa-Russell: Margaret.
1:10:01
Speaker 14: Okay.
1:10:01
Speaker 14: That's a first for the podcast.
1:10:03
Speaker 14: A movie recommendation for writers.
1:10:05
Speaker 14: Make Sure.
1:10:06
Speaker 14: you write that down.
1:10:06
Speaker 14: I've written it down for myself, mark.
1:10:08
Speaker 14: So I'll report back.
1:10:10
Speaker 14: Ali, do you wanna finish this off?
1:10:12
Alli Parker (2): Sure.
1:10:14
Alli Parker (2): Um, I, I think the last time I was on, actually, I'm not gonna say what my top tip was the last time I was on the pod, so that you, if you're listening and you haven't listened to my episode, you have to go back and listen to it.
1:10:25
Madeleine Cleary: Very strategic.
1:10:26
Alli Parker (2): but so this time I was, I wanted to offer a different top tip, and that is that, don't rush it.
1:10:39
Alli Parker (2): It's really, really, really easy, especially when you have like a little carrot of maybe publisher interest or agent interest, like right in front of your face.
1:10:51
Alli Parker (2): Resist the urge to take the bite, give your story the time that it needs.
1:10:56
Alli Parker (2): Give yourself the time that you need to get it right.
1:11:01
Alli Parker (2): Because I remember when I was like in the throes of trying to sort out my deal with my publisher, and even then I still remember that I was trying to get in touch with people and it was just not working and things were not happening.
1:11:14
Alli Parker (2): And I just kept saying to myself, this is an exercise in patience.
1:11:18
Alli Parker (2): And as writers, we are playing a very long game.
1:11:22
Alli Parker (2): We like, we're not going to be, not all of us are gonna be Trent Dalton and come out at swinging with like a huge million copy bestseller with voice followers universe First time around.
1:11:32
Alli Parker (2): It is a longer game than that.
1:11:34
Alli Parker (2): You are starting a journey that is gonna take years and years and years of your life.
1:11:39
Alli Parker (2): So just don't rush it.
1:11:42
Alli Parker (2): Make sure you're getting it right.
1:11:44
Alli Parker (2): Calm down.
1:11:46
Alli Parker (2): This is advice for me as much as anything else, but just calm down.
1:11:50
Alli Parker (2): Take a breath, make sure it's exactly what you want.
1:11:52
Alli Parker (2): Just because someone's giving you a yes, they might not be the right person to be giving you a yes.
1:11:57
Alli Parker (2): Make sure you have the right framework for you, for your story and what you want and what you're envisioning for it, because ultimately, if you don't get those things, then your journey might not be the journey that you want or expect.
1:12:10
Alli Parker (2): So just give yourself the time you need, give your story, the time it needs, but keep walking the path.
1:12:18
Alli Parker (2): You don't have to sprint.
1:12:19
Alli Parker (2): It's definitely a marathon.
1:12:20
Alli Parker (2): It's a really, really long marathon.
1:12:22
Alli Parker (2): It is definitely not a sprint, so just take the time, pace yourself, and again, eat well, sleep well, stay hydrated.
1:12:29
Madeleine Cleary: Very good, and that I think is a wrap.
1:12:32
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you so much, mark and Ellie for coming on the podcast again.
1:12:36
Alli Parker (2): Thanks for having us back
1:12:39
Speaker 2: See you.
1:12:41
Alli Parker (2): as always.
1:12:42
Speaker 6: Mark and Ali's second novels, the Wolf Who Cried Boy and Until The Red Leaves Fall are available now in all good bookstores.
1:12:49
Speaker 6: And also just a quick warning that the movie Mark recommends may be triggering for some viewers as it does contain a disturbing scene.
1:12:56
I.
1:12:56
Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
1:12:59
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1:13:04
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1:13:12
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