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Estate planning for unmarried partners · The Legal Exchange

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Speaker 1: This is the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky from the
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Speaker 1: law firm of Cushing and Dolan and Susan Powers of
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Speaker 1: the Armstrong Advisory Group. Each week, Todd and Susan will
0:10
Speaker 1: discuss many topics, including estate planning, how to avoid probate,
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Speaker 1: and protecting your money from a nursing home. If you
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Speaker 1: need assistance in any of these areas, or have a
0:18
Speaker 1: question about another issue that may affect your future, call
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Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninety nine
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Speaker 1: to make an appointment. That's eight sixty six eight four
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Speaker 1: eight five six ninety nine. Operators are standing by. Now
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Speaker 1: Here are your hosts, Tod Lutsky and Susan Powers.
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Speaker 2: Welcome into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm Susan Powers,
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Speaker 2: a financial advisor the Armstrong Advisory Group, and I'm joined
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Speaker 2: by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the law firm of
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Speaker 2: Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation. Welcome Todd.
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Speaker 3: How are you today? I am never better you, I'm great?
0:54
Speaker 3: Thank you. What do you have for us this week?
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Speaker 3: Let's see a couple of cases. We're going to head
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Speaker 3: to DC where we've got an appellate court case dealing
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Speaker 3: with when are you common law married? And how do
1:07
Speaker 3: you know? And does it matter if it's contested or
1:10
Speaker 3: not if nobody challenges that you're actually married and everybody
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Speaker 3: just assumes you are, does that matter from every estate
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Speaker 3: planning perspective in this case, you're going to see how
1:22
Speaker 3: it might impact social security benefits. You wouldn't think about it,
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Speaker 3: but folks lots to think about here, not just that
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Speaker 3: little piece, more about having a common law marriage, or
1:32
Speaker 3: even if you're not married, being a significant other. Who
1:34
Speaker 3: cares If I'm married, I still need to plan if
1:37
Speaker 3: I love my significant other even more so, and again
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Speaker 3: if we're common law married, it'll be interesting to see
1:44
Speaker 3: how that plays out. So that's step one. Then we
1:48
Speaker 3: head over to Indiana and we've got an appellate court
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Speaker 3: case there that basically talks about the countability of trust
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Speaker 3: assets first and then whether or not there's a disqualifying
2:01
Speaker 3: transfer involved at all. This is about medicaid. You set
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Speaker 3: up a trust, you get denied medicaid because they say
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Speaker 3: the assets are available based on the terms of the trust,
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Speaker 3: which obviously drafting is going to be an important element
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Speaker 3: that we discuss here. But more importantly than that, maybe
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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter whether they're available. What was there a
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Speaker 3: disqualifying transfer of assets getting them into the trust in
2:24
Speaker 3: this case also deals with the personal care contract. So
2:27
Speaker 3: there's a lot going on in this case, folks. We're
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Speaker 3: going to come back and we're going to explain all
2:31
Speaker 3: of that to you, But before we do that, I
2:34
Speaker 3: want to just make mention that this is the end
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Speaker 3: of the month. This is the last chance to get
2:40
Speaker 3: what is really the new guide called the Simplicity of
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Speaker 3: joint revocable Trust. It's a guide that has never been
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Speaker 3: given away before. It's really been becoming more and more
2:51
Speaker 3: in an attractive way of planning because of the passage
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Speaker 3: of the BBBA. It's really all about the base. It's
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Speaker 3: the simplicity of putting all your assets in one trust,
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Speaker 3: not separating them, cramming down assets on the first death,
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Speaker 3: not only getting more sheltered for estate tax purposes so
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Speaker 3: we can win on the estate tax front, but also
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Speaker 3: allowing you to get a full step up in basis
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Speaker 3: thereby eliminating capital gains taxes and winning on the capital
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Speaker 3: gains tax front on the income side, so we're winning
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Speaker 3: on both sides of the tax equation with this trust.
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Speaker 3: And yes, it also provides for the nice way of
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Speaker 3: leaving assets to your family, the dynasty, the divorce proofing.
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Speaker 3: It really gives you a good understanding of how estate
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Speaker 3: planning works. Basic estate planning. So you get your self
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Speaker 3: and gear here and it's the end of the year,
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Speaker 3: and figure out how to get your estate plan in order.
3:45
Speaker 3: It's not yet the end of the year. It's getting there.
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Speaker 3: Eight six six eight four eight five six nine to
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Speaker 3: nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com and download the
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Speaker 3: guide again eight six six eight four eight five six
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Speaker 3: nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com. Back to DC.
4:06
Speaker 3: Are we married? I don't know. Let's see we are.
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Speaker 3: Just to clarify, that's clear. That's crystal clear. Greg and
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Speaker 3: Peggy began a relationship in the nineteen nineties, living together
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Speaker 3: and they continued to do that throughout their relationship, but
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Speaker 3: they never married. Why ruin a good thing by getting married?
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Speaker 3: I guess held themselves out as married to their family,
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Speaker 3: to their friends, et cetera. Twenty fifteen, Peggy died without
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Speaker 3: a will, survived by Greg and several siblings, apparently no kids.
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Speaker 3: Greg petitioned and probate the court petitioned to probate the
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Speaker 3: will in court to be appointed personal representative as he
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Speaker 3: has a priority because he's a surviving spouse. They're not married,
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Speaker 3: are they married? So as the surviving spouse, he would
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Speaker 3: have priority if their common law married, not the siblings.
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Speaker 3: Greg then applied for and was granted social Security benefits. Okay,
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Speaker 3: But when he requested a different start date because he
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Speaker 3: wasn't happy with the start date of the Social Security benefits,
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Speaker 3: sometimes just keep your mouth shut and move forward is
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Speaker 3: the lesson, he was denied benefits and it was stated
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Speaker 3: that there was insufficient evidence to support that Greg was
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Speaker 3: a surviving spouse and ordered him to pay back eighty
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Speaker 3: five hundred bucks that he had gotten in Social Security benefits.
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Speaker 3: I know, weird. Well, the administrative law judge agreed, stating
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Speaker 3: that he did not have to adhere to the probate
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Speaker 3: court statement that Greg was a surviving spouse and Greg
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Speaker 3: failed to establish that he was in fact common law
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Speaker 3: married under DC law. Well, Greg didn't like that, solied.
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Speaker 3: He appealed, and this is all over eighty five hundred dollars.
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Speaker 3: I'm already scratching my head. He went to the appellate court.
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Speaker 3: The Appellate Court affirmed the administrative law judge is ruling
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Speaker 3: that Social Security Administration must adhere to state court decisions
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Speaker 3: if certain elements are met. One, did the court genuinely
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Speaker 3: contest the validity of the common law marriage and was
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Speaker 3: the court decisions was consistent with that law? And the
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Speaker 3: court said, there was no contesting the status of Greg's
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Speaker 3: common law marriage. Remember they just accepted it. Remember they
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Speaker 3: appointed him he are and accepted that he was the
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Speaker 3: common law Wow. So there was no contesting and thus
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Speaker 3: no evidence stating or showing that the court applied DC
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Speaker 3: law to conclude the validity of the claim. Therefore, since
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Speaker 3: no one contested that he was, it was never proven
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Speaker 3: that he was, that he was the common law married
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Speaker 3: and was the surviving spouse. So Social Security said, we
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Speaker 3: don't have to acknowledge it, and therefore we're not going
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Speaker 3: to pay you social Security benefits. Again, it's a silly case.
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Speaker 3: It's eighty five hundred dollars, but whatever the monthly benefit is,
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Speaker 3: I guess could have made a difference to them. So
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Speaker 3: that's how that got played out. I'm like, well that
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Speaker 3: was funny. I mean, it's a strange case, but it's
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Speaker 3: not about the eighty five hundred dollars, folks, it's not
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Speaker 3: about the Social Security benefits. I think he's still a
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Speaker 3: big winner here because he was deemed the surviving spouse
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Speaker 3: and therefore she died without a will. He's going to
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Speaker 3: get along for the estate. Yeah, because he'll be the
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Speaker 3: next closest next of ken yep if there's no will.
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Speaker 3: So I think that's really important that he still wins
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Speaker 3: even though he loses out on Social Security benefits. Folks,
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Speaker 3: let's learn some stuff from this. Second marriages significant others.
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Speaker 3: I don't care what you are married or not. You've
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Speaker 3: got to think about it right. You really need to
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Speaker 3: do planning if you if you're married or you're not married,
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Speaker 3: but you have a significant other and you want to
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Speaker 3: provide for that person first. If you want them to, like,
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Speaker 3: you know, enjoy some of the items in it that
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Speaker 3: you own, but not have them own it, then you
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Speaker 3: need a trust in order to do that. Right. The
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Speaker 3: trust is going to be designed where the spouses the
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Speaker 3: assets could be used by the significant other but not
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Speaker 3: owned by the significant other. The second spouse, even if
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Speaker 3: it's a second marriage, you could ensure that they are
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Speaker 3: preserved for that side of the you know, for that person,
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Speaker 3: but preserved for your family. Yep, you need the trust
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Speaker 3: to live on to do that. Example, day in the house, Yeah,
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Speaker 3: you could allow the significant other to live in the house,
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Speaker 3: pay the bills, the right to pay the income. But
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Speaker 3: you know they can get income from investments, but not principal,
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Speaker 3: not sell the house, but live there. And this allows
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Speaker 3: them to continue to enjoy and be provided for. But
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Speaker 3: make sure that they go to your side of the family,
9:18
Speaker 3: you know, when when you pass away. Now remember here
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Speaker 3: there's a probate. There was a probated state, right, So
9:26
Speaker 3: if you have a bunch of bank accounts and you
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Speaker 3: had them all set up with designated beneficiaries as the kids, well,
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Speaker 3: then the kids from the prior marriage would just take
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Speaker 3: it and the significant other would be excluded. Yep. So
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Speaker 3: be careful here because this even with no will, even
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Speaker 3: though you're the significant other, you're the deemed to be
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Speaker 3: the spouse. You don't just get stuff if it's not
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Speaker 3: going to probate. So if you had right, if she
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Speaker 3: had a bunch of stuff named with designated beneficiaries of kids,
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Speaker 3: it would go to those kids outside of her. So
9:58
Speaker 3: folks need to think of all of this when you're
10:01
Speaker 3: doing your planning. My advice get the Guide on the
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10:10
Speaker 3: take care of your family eight six six eight four
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Speaker 3: eight five six ninety nine or Legal Exchange show dot com.
10:19
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lotski, a partner with the
10:21
Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Power as
10:25
Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We've got
10:28
Speaker 2: much more to come when we return after this quick
10:30
Speaker 2: break on the Legal Exchange with Todd Lotski.
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13:53
Speaker 2: Welcome back into the legal exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
13:56
Speaker 2: Susan Powers of financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
14:00
Speaker 2: and I'm joined by Todd Latsky, a partner with the
14:02
Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a masters in taxation.
14:07
Speaker 2: Where are we headed now, Todd, We're going to head over.
14:09
Speaker 3: To Indiana an appellet court case there dealing with what
14:15
Speaker 3: is countable for medicaid purposes in a medicaid trust and
14:19
Speaker 3: does it matter whether or not there was a disqualifying
14:22
Speaker 3: transfer to get the assets in there. Two separate things
14:25
Speaker 3: to look at. Kind of interesting, right, and that's what
14:27
Speaker 3: they kind of played with here in this case. So
14:31
Speaker 3: here we have Natalie who was denied medicaid because the
14:37
Speaker 3: irrevocable trust used apparently was deemed that the assets in
14:43
Speaker 3: it were available to her. Remember that's the rule. If
14:46
Speaker 3: there's any way in which you can get the principle
14:50
Speaker 3: or any portion of it, then it's countable. It's a
14:52
Speaker 3: drafting issue. It's a drafting issue. I didn't read the trust,
14:56
Speaker 3: so I don't know the trust was established by Natalie's kis.
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Speaker 3: Now that's important because that makes it a third party trust,
15:03
Speaker 3: which changes the rules. Right. Okay, So the trust was
15:06
Speaker 3: established by Natalie's kids, but funded with payments Natalie made
15:12
Speaker 3: for the servi for the services provided by the kids.
15:15
Speaker 3: Personal care contract comes into mind. So apparently mom Natalie
15:22
Speaker 3: is paying the kids some of the payments made and
15:25
Speaker 3: the kids would then take the money and put it
15:27
Speaker 3: in this trust trust that they created for Mom. Interesting play.
15:33
Speaker 3: So the personal care contract, some of the payments were
15:36
Speaker 3: made before the contract existed, and some of the payments
15:41
Speaker 3: were made after the contract exists, after they got a
15:45
Speaker 3: little advice. So that could be a big difference. And
15:48
Speaker 3: that's going to make a difference between what's considered a
15:51
Speaker 3: disqualifying transfer and what is it because if it's not
15:55
Speaker 3: a disqualifying transfer, then you really need to read the
15:58
Speaker 3: trust to see if they're count right. If it is
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Speaker 3: a disqualifying transfer, well then we don't need to read
16:04
Speaker 3: the trust yet you're just denied, yes, okay. So Natalie
16:10
Speaker 3: then argues that the state should first determine even if
16:14
Speaker 3: the transfers were disqualifying transfers, rather than see if the
16:17
Speaker 3: trust assets were accountable. That's what she's trying to argue
16:20
Speaker 3: that's what we just said, right. If these are actually
16:23
Speaker 3: payments for services, well then they're not disqualifying transfers, right,
16:28
Speaker 3: So doesn't matter if the trust what it says it
16:33
Speaker 3: it's not a disqualifying transfer. I gave it to my son,
16:36
Speaker 3: m I earned it was it was for services rendered.
16:40
Speaker 3: Very different than here. A disqualifying transfer is when you
16:45
Speaker 3: give something away for less than fair market value in
16:48
Speaker 3: exchange that otherwise could be used for your care. Right.
16:52
Speaker 3: So if you instead pay for services, well that's not
16:56
Speaker 3: a disqualifying transfer because I got fair market value in
16:59
Speaker 3: return for what I gave away. I got services.
17:02
Speaker 2: But probably different if you pay a company to provide
17:06
Speaker 2: that care versus a child.
17:08
Speaker 3: Right, But if you have a personal care contract, then
17:10
Speaker 3: it's okay to pay the trust. So are lots going
17:12
Speaker 3: on here, folks, the appellate court. So of course they
17:16
Speaker 3: got all the way up to the appellate court and
17:18
Speaker 3: they said, in order to determine if a transfer penalty applies,
17:22
Speaker 3: one must first determine if the individual is ever eligible
17:25
Speaker 3: for Medicaid benefits. So you've got to do that first.
17:28
Speaker 3: So first you must determine if the assets in the
17:31
Speaker 3: trust are even countable so if they are countable, well
17:35
Speaker 3: that doesn't matter how they got there, they're still countable.
17:38
Speaker 3: There's no waiting. You never get past the waiting period
17:40
Speaker 3: because it's countable. So the rule is, does the trust
17:43
Speaker 3: provide that there are any circumstances in which the principle
17:46
Speaker 3: of the trust can be paid two or for the
17:48
Speaker 3: benefit of Natalie. If so, it's countable. And so this
17:52
Speaker 3: whole case, you're not going to like this got remanded
17:55
Speaker 3: because they first, I tell.
17:57
Speaker 2: You about leaving us hanging with solutions.
18:00
Speaker 3: So they first said, yes, you got to go back
18:02
Speaker 3: now to the court and say, first determine whether or
18:05
Speaker 3: not this trust is even countable. Then we'll deal with
18:08
Speaker 3: whether or not the transfers are disqualifying or I don't care.
18:10
Speaker 3: I'm done listening to you.
18:12
Speaker 2: I like resolution, I like neat bos. I'm going to
18:14
Speaker 2: get on these cases and stories.
18:16
Speaker 3: I'm going to give everybody resolution because when we go
18:19
Speaker 3: through the tips and lessons of what we can learn,
18:21
Speaker 3: I'm going to spell out everything for you, so you're
18:24
Speaker 3: going to know how this is going to play out. Folks,
18:28
Speaker 3: if you haven't done your estate planning, you want to
18:30
Speaker 3: get your ducks in a row. The simplicity of joint
18:35
Speaker 3: revocable trusts is a brand new guide. It's the end
18:38
Speaker 3: of the month, so brand new in the sense it's
18:40
Speaker 3: never been given away and now it's the last chance
18:42
Speaker 3: to get it because it is the end of the month.
18:45
Speaker 3: It teaches us how simple it is to fund a
18:48
Speaker 3: trust rather than split assets. Between two talks about estate
18:52
Speaker 3: tax savings. It also explains the step up in basis
18:55
Speaker 3: where you can get a full step up on the
18:57
Speaker 3: first death, and really helps us understand and winning on
19:00
Speaker 3: both sides of the equation estate tax, income tax. Just
19:05
Speaker 3: so much to offer and so easy to understand. Call
19:10
Speaker 3: and get the guide eight six six eight four eight
19:13
Speaker 3: five six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
19:17
Speaker 3: It is the end of the month. It's going away
19:20
Speaker 3: after this, folks eight six six eight four eight five
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Speaker 3: six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
19:29
Speaker 2: Listen, I think you need to do a year end
19:31
Speaker 2: wrap up show every year. Go back through all your
19:34
Speaker 2: past show notes and give us resolution for all the
19:37
Speaker 2: times you've left us hanging throughout the year.
19:40
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to clear this one up for you,
19:41
Speaker 3: all right. We're going to make it very clear what
19:43
Speaker 3: is a disqualifying transfer right any action taken that makes
19:48
Speaker 3: a formally available asset no longer available, meaning you didn't
19:54
Speaker 3: get fair market value for what you gave away. So
19:56
Speaker 3: I transfer of assets and do not get back fair
20:01
Speaker 3: market value, then you have to calculate this penalty period. Why,
20:05
Speaker 3: because it's a disqualifying transfer. Now, let's just say, for
20:09
Speaker 3: the most part, you have when you make one of
20:12
Speaker 3: these disqualifying transfers. We know generally speaking it's a five
20:17
Speaker 3: year waiting period. I put it somewhere where I cannot
20:20
Speaker 3: get it. Well, that you cannot get it part is
20:23
Speaker 3: determined based on the language of the trust that you
20:26
Speaker 3: put it in. So that's what this is all about, right,
20:29
Speaker 3: So did these transfers get put into a trust that
20:34
Speaker 3: were in fact available to the individual in this case, Natalie.
20:40
Speaker 3: If they remain available, then it doesn't matter that it's
20:43
Speaker 3: a disqualifying transfer right. Actually, it wouldn't be disqualifying because
20:47
Speaker 3: you could still get it all right. Why that's important
20:52
Speaker 3: is there was a personal care contract involved here. So
20:55
Speaker 3: if you're going to provide services personal care services for
21:01
Speaker 3: your loved one and you don't have a personal care
21:06
Speaker 3: contract in place, then those will be considered disqualifying transfers
21:12
Speaker 3: because they will be deemed made by you out of
21:16
Speaker 3: love and affection. You need to go out of your
21:19
Speaker 3: way to create a personal care contract to convert that
21:24
Speaker 3: love and affection to a business transaction and make it real. Well,
21:31
Speaker 3: what's probably wondering what's involved in doing that, Well, you
21:34
Speaker 3: got to go get a personal You got to have
21:37
Speaker 3: a contract setup. In the contract, it's between the care
21:40
Speaker 3: provider and the person who's receiving the care. You need
21:43
Speaker 3: to define the services that are being rendered exactly what
21:47
Speaker 3: you're doing. You need to put down an hourly rate
21:51
Speaker 3: of pay that you're going to get. You need to
21:54
Speaker 3: determine the duration of the services. You need to say
21:59
Speaker 3: how I'm going to get paid every week, two weeks monthly. However,
22:04
Speaker 3: you want probably not a bad idea to set up
22:07
Speaker 3: maybe even a payroll service to kick it out so
22:11
Speaker 3: you get like a W two or ten ninety nine
22:14
Speaker 3: at the end of the year. Yes, you must also
22:17
Speaker 3: put that money you get on your personal income tax return.
22:21
Speaker 3: It's income, Yep, you're acknowledging that it's income by paying taxes.
22:26
Speaker 3: Those kinds of things make it a personal care contract
22:30
Speaker 3: and then would prevent the money coming from Mom Natalie
22:35
Speaker 3: in this case to the child from being a disqualifying
22:40
Speaker 3: transfer and instead is a payment for services rendered. Big difference,
22:47
Speaker 3: not a disqualifying transfer. But if you took the money
22:53
Speaker 3: and stuck it in a trust that's available to the
22:57
Speaker 3: person you just got it from, well then we don't
23:02
Speaker 3: care whether it's a disqualifying transfer or not. The money
23:04
Speaker 3: still available to go boomerang. So you got to be
23:07
Speaker 3: very careful when you drafted to make sure that you've
23:10
Speaker 3: accomplished that. So accountability versus whether or not it's a
23:14
Speaker 3: disqualifying transfer. So that's what this is all about. But
23:17
Speaker 3: that's really from a medicaid standpoint. Folks. You just want
23:20
Speaker 3: to get your basic estate planning in the row in order.
23:23
Speaker 3: It's the end of the month, call and get the
23:24
Speaker 3: guide The Simplicity of Joint Revocable Trusts eight six six
23:29
Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange
23:33
Speaker 3: show dot com. You can download it right there.
23:36
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
23:39
Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
23:42
Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and Todd will
23:45
Speaker 2: be answering your listener questions. When we return to the
23:49
Speaker 2: Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky, The.
23:52
Speaker 1: State planning isn't just about taxes, It's about peace of mind.
23:56
Speaker 1: At Cushing and Dolan, we believe your plan should protect
23:58
Speaker 1: your family, not implicate your life. A joint revocable trust
24:02
Speaker 1: can help you do both. It lets you avoid probate,
24:04
Speaker 1: which means no court delays, no public filings, and no
24:08
Speaker 1: stress for your loved ones. Your state stays private and
24:11
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24:14
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24:17
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24:23
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24:26
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24:31
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24:34
Speaker 1: That's eight sixty six eight four eight five six ninety nine,
24:37
Speaker 1: or requested online from our website Legal Exchange show dot com.
24:41
Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for in The views expressed are
24:43
Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan in
24:45
Speaker 1: or Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering legal investment services.
24:48
Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
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Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong advisory group a
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Speaker 1: your own financial tax into state planning advisors before making
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Speaker 1: time for Ask Todd, the segment where will answer your
27:01
Speaker 1: questions about anything and everything that's included in the estate
27:04
Speaker 1: planning process. Once again, here's Todd Lutsky and Susan Powers.
27:10
Speaker 3: Welcome back, Tod.
27:11
Speaker 2: We have a few questions from listeners who you first
27:14
Speaker 2: question comes from Joan in Middleborough, mass And Joan writes,
27:19
Speaker 2: my husband and I have two irrevocable trusts. Our niece
27:24
Speaker 2: is currently the trustee, but has indicated that she no
27:27
Speaker 2: longer wants to be the trustee. How do we go
27:30
Speaker 2: about changing this? Are there any restrictions as to who
27:34
Speaker 2: we can appoint?
27:36
Speaker 3: So let's let's sort of unpack that because I find
27:40
Speaker 3: there's some things that I might need to know a
27:42
Speaker 3: little more about.
27:43
Speaker 2: And this is my client, so I'm well aware of
27:45
Speaker 2: her situation right now, So you give me this is
27:47
Speaker 2: your trust By the way, oh, that was one of
27:48
Speaker 2: my questions. That's probably helpful detailed that I left out. Yes,
27:53
Speaker 2: so you don't give me resolutions. I don't give you
27:56
Speaker 2: full questions, don't give me full facts.
27:57
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to answer full question. So in
28:01
Speaker 3: this case, one with the fact that they that that
28:06
Speaker 3: I now know it's a Cushing and Dole in trust
28:09
Speaker 3: and and that there's two of them, two trusts. I'm
28:12
Speaker 3: going to realize that they're over two million dollars in assets,
28:18
Speaker 3: and that's important from an estate tax standpoint for me.
28:23
Speaker 3: But they're irrevocable, so I know they're designed to protect
28:26
Speaker 3: assets from the nursing home and shelter for a state
28:29
Speaker 3: taxes at the same time. So that's good. Now, it's
28:31
Speaker 3: interesting that there's a niece listed as trustee, which makes
28:34
Speaker 3: me beg the question about children. They both have children,
28:39
Speaker 3: but a little estranged. But are they providing for them?
28:42
Speaker 3: They are, but they don't want them serving as trustee. Yeah,
28:46
Speaker 3: that's not horribly uncommon. I guess it's not all the time,
28:50
Speaker 3: but you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. The
28:53
Speaker 3: niece can certainly serve as trustee. And again I always
28:56
Speaker 3: tell people when you're setting up your your trusts, that
28:59
Speaker 3: it's probably a good idea to just ask yourself that
29:02
Speaker 3: you know. I always start with the premise that that
29:05
Speaker 3: you know, the trust is irrevocable, but you have powers
29:08
Speaker 3: to change things, so you know, do you I always
29:11
Speaker 3: say which child do you want to serve, just assuming
29:13
Speaker 3: it's going to be a child, and they'll tell us, oh,
29:17
Speaker 3: you know, they're probably just not good at this, right,
29:20
Speaker 3: or you know, I can't pick one and not the other,
29:22
Speaker 3: and then even if I pick both, they fight with
29:24
Speaker 3: each other. So there's just not a good dynamic. Fine,
29:28
Speaker 3: don't put them on. Put the niece on now. Apparently,
29:32
Speaker 3: like here, life changes, yep, and it might be a
29:36
Speaker 3: change by the niece, Yeah, she's moving away, and it
29:40
Speaker 3: might be a change by mom and dads of the world.
29:43
Speaker 3: So either way, the control over that trustee remains with
29:49
Speaker 3: the donors, the moms and dads of the world. So good.
29:55
Speaker 3: They have what is known as the power to remove
29:58
Speaker 3: and replace trust these anytime with no reason given. However,
30:06
Speaker 3: they cannot replace with themselves anybody else, but not themselves.
30:11
Speaker 3: Now in this case, of course, niece is certainly allowed
30:13
Speaker 3: to resign. Don't have to remove her because she doesn't
30:17
Speaker 3: want to serve anyway, so she would prepare a resignation. Well,
30:21
Speaker 3: the attorney would prepare the resignation, she would sign it,
30:28
Speaker 3: and you could also, by the way, trustees are also
30:30
Speaker 3: able to appoint new trustees. So maybe it might be
30:35
Speaker 3: even easier just to have the niece a point at
30:39
Speaker 3: the direction of the donors.
30:41
Speaker 2: Would she's more than willing to do what she needs
30:44
Speaker 2: to do from a paperwork perspective to sign things.
30:48
Speaker 3: Simply come in and say, you know. The donors come
30:51
Speaker 3: in and say, you know, we want n we want
30:53
Speaker 3: our nephew serve.
30:54
Speaker 2: So they don't have a big network of folks to
30:57
Speaker 2: choose from, so they were thinking perhaps they might want
31:00
Speaker 2: an attorney to serve as trustee. Is that possible perfectly?
31:04
Speaker 3: Okay, they can pick anybody they want as long as
31:07
Speaker 3: it's not them. So again, the idea might be that
31:10
Speaker 3: they come in and they tell you this, because we
31:12
Speaker 3: still don't want Apparently the things haven't change for the sun,
31:15
Speaker 3: they don't want the children in. They just simply say, fine,
31:18
Speaker 3: why don't we have you know, the niece file an
31:21
Speaker 3: appointment that says I appoint Todd Lutsky trustee or some
31:25
Speaker 3: senior attorney at Cushing and Dolan trustee and then I
31:30
Speaker 3: would accept, Then a resignation would be prepared and she
31:34
Speaker 3: would resign, and the three pieces of paper later you've
31:37
Speaker 3: got your new trustee. Easy peasy. So, folks, it's not
31:41
Speaker 3: restrictive just because you have an irrevocable trust. However, the
31:47
Speaker 3: real simplicity comes from this joint revocable trust. Again, these
31:51
Speaker 3: are folks not interested necessarily in protecting assets from the
31:54
Speaker 3: nursing home, but there's a whole host of people who
31:56
Speaker 3: want basic estate planning done. This trust under the new
32:01
Speaker 3: BBBA really has become more popular. It allows you to
32:05
Speaker 3: completely fund it, not split assets, just throw everything in there.
32:09
Speaker 3: You don't have to divide things between spouses. You stay
32:12
Speaker 3: in control. You get full inclusion, so you're able to
32:16
Speaker 3: shelter a lot more on the first death than you
32:18
Speaker 3: ever could before with two trusts, getting a full step
32:21
Speaker 3: up in basis on the first death, allowing for lots
32:24
Speaker 3: of more flexibility by the surviving spouse in terms of
32:28
Speaker 3: what they might give away and how they might use
32:30
Speaker 3: the assets, and then of course even maybe a second
32:33
Speaker 3: step up in basis when the survivor dies. Folks taking
32:36
Speaker 3: advantage of both estate tax savings and income tax savings,
32:40
Speaker 3: and winning on both sides of the equation is what
32:42
Speaker 3: this guide is all about. Call and get it. It's
32:45
Speaker 3: the end of the month eight six six eight four
32:49
Speaker 3: eight five six nine to nine or Legal Exchange Show
32:53
Speaker 3: dot com and download it there. It's going to go
32:55
Speaker 3: away after this month eight six six eight four eight
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Speaker 3: five six nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
33:04
Speaker 2: Our last question comes from Ken in Nashville, New Hampshire,
33:06
Speaker 2: and Ken writes, my wife and I are in our
33:09
Speaker 2: early sixties and starting to think about nursing home protection.
33:13
Speaker 2: How do we know when it's time to switch from
33:16
Speaker 2: a revocable trust to an irrevocable one and what happens
33:19
Speaker 2: if we wait too long. We have a total of
33:22
Speaker 2: one and a half million, including our home worth six
33:25
Speaker 2: hundred thousand, iris worth four hundred and other investments of
33:29
Speaker 2: five hundred thousand. When do you start thinking about that
33:33
Speaker 2: every vocable?
33:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, sixty, it's time. It's funny that you mentioned the sixties,
33:42
Speaker 3: but yes, when I meet clients and there is no
33:45
Speaker 3: rhyme or reason, I always tell people this is my
33:48
Speaker 3: own rule. Please don't say, oh, that's what I heard
33:50
Speaker 3: that's the rule. It's just my rule guideline. Yeah, I
33:54
Speaker 3: think you know sixty sixty one too. It takes five
33:57
Speaker 3: years to protect assets, so you know, on where you
34:00
Speaker 3: are in life, if you're comfortable. If you need to
34:02
Speaker 3: wait till sixty five, that's no harm done. You can
34:05
Speaker 3: still do it at sixty five. Obviously you can do
34:07
Speaker 3: it even later. Never hurts to get the clock running.
34:10
Speaker 3: But at an early time I would think sixties. So now,
34:18
Speaker 3: the other thing that you really need to look at
34:20
Speaker 3: when you think about switching is you know, do I
34:26
Speaker 3: what kind of assets? How much am I worth? Right?
34:29
Speaker 3: So their net worth is sort of right in that
34:32
Speaker 3: sweet spot of yes, I need to be protecting assets
34:36
Speaker 3: from the nursing home. Whereas if they were in their
34:38
Speaker 3: sixties and worth seven million, I might be saying, you
34:41
Speaker 3: don't need to think about switching, right, So I think
34:45
Speaker 3: there's an age function, sure, and an asset net worth function.
34:50
Speaker 3: So if they say, well, geez, we were thinking about
34:51
Speaker 3: switching to nursing home planning, I would say, why you're
34:55
Speaker 3: the higher Yeah, the higher network exactly. If you're at
34:57
Speaker 3: six seven million and up, you know, I'd be like bother.
35:00
Speaker 2: But at a lower networth. I think it can be
35:02
Speaker 2: more important than ever to make sure those assets are
35:05
Speaker 2: protected for your spouse so you're not going to impoverish
35:08
Speaker 2: them if for one of you goes into a nursing home.
35:10
Speaker 3: Great point. I think people forget that. They think we're
35:12
Speaker 3: always talking about the kids when we talk about these trusts. Right, No,
35:16
Speaker 3: I've talked about the parents first. Yeah, then the kids.
35:19
Speaker 2: If there's something less for the kids, great.
35:21
Speaker 3: But there will be when yes, And I think you're
35:25
Speaker 3: right here because how much of and when you look
35:27
Speaker 3: at a one point five million dollar estate, I'm with
35:31
Speaker 3: you that that's in the realm of yes, we should
35:34
Speaker 3: be switching to irrevocable trusts. And then you've got to
35:37
Speaker 3: look at the type of assets that make up that estate.
35:41
Speaker 3: Like if these assets were switched and they had like
35:44
Speaker 3: a million dollars in an IRA and like a couple
35:48
Speaker 3: thousand dollars in a bank account and a house. Right,
35:51
Speaker 3: it's a little harder because you can't protect the iry
35:54
Speaker 3: in advance, right, not in advance, that's right. But but
35:58
Speaker 3: you know, this is really a great set of facts
36:02
Speaker 3: because of the one point five one point one can
36:08
Speaker 3: be protected m and you're going to live off the
36:11
Speaker 3: four hundred thousand dollars IRA anyway. Yep, that's a great
36:14
Speaker 3: asset to spend down during life. It's better for taxes,
36:17
Speaker 3: it's at risk for the nursing home. So please do
36:20
Speaker 3: that and let's stick everything else in the trust, folks.
36:24
Speaker 3: That's medicaid planning. This guide is about the simplicity of
36:28
Speaker 3: joint revocable trust. It's the end of the month. Call
36:30
Speaker 3: and get it eight six six eight four eight five
36:34
Speaker 3: six nine nine or Legal Exchange show dot com and
36:38
Speaker 3: download it there.
36:40
Speaker 2: If you have a question you would like to ask Todd,
36:42
Speaker 2: visit his website Legal Exchange Show dot com. Click on
36:46
Speaker 2: the ass tob tab. Maybe I'll be able to read
36:48
Speaker 2: your question on the air, and hopefully his answer will
36:51
Speaker 2: stop you from becoming one of his next real life stories.
36:54
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
36:57
Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing in Dolan sus Empowers, a financial
37:01
Speaker 2: advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We'll be back with
37:05
Speaker 2: more after this quick break on a legal exchange with
37:08
Speaker 2: Todd Lutsky.
37:09
Speaker 1: The state planning isn't just about taxes, It's about peace
37:12
Speaker 1: of mind. At Cushing and Dolan. We believe your plan
37:15
Speaker 1: should protect your family, not complicate your life. A joint
37:18
Speaker 1: revocable trust can help you do both. It lets you
37:21
Speaker 1: avoid probate, which means no court delays, no public filings,
37:24
Speaker 1: and no stress for your loved ones. Your state stays
37:27
Speaker 1: private and your family stays in control. Our new guide,
37:30
Speaker 1: The Simplicity of Joint Revocable Trusts also explains how a
37:34
Speaker 1: trust can protect your children's inheritance from creditors, divorce, or
37:37
Speaker 1: bad financial decisions down the road. This guide makes it
37:40
Speaker 1: easy to understand why a joint trust may be the
37:43
Speaker 1: smart move for your family's future. Call eight six six
37:46
Speaker 1: eight four eight five six nine to nine right now
37:48
Speaker 1: and ask for your free copy of the Simplicity of
37:50
Speaker 1: Joint Revocable Trusts that's eight six six eight four eight
37:53
Speaker 1: five six ninety nine, or requested online from our website
37:56
Speaker 1: Legal exchange show dot com. The proceeding was paid for
37:59
Speaker 1: in the UW. Expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan.
38:01
Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan in or Armstrong Advisory may contact you
38:04
Speaker 1: offering legal or investment services. Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong
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Speaker 1: Advisory do not endorse each other. In are not affiliated HI.
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Speaker 1: This is Chuck Zada from the Armstrong Advisory Group. Your
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Speaker 1: For all you've done. Your tune to the Legal Exchange
40:43
Speaker 1: with Todd Lutsky. If you are a loved one needs
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Speaker 1: a nursing homes day, call Todd right now at eight
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Speaker 1: sixty six eight four eight five six ninet nine and
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Speaker 1: visit him online at Legal Exchange show dot com.
41:01
Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
41:04
Speaker 2: Susan Powers a financial advisor the Armstrong Advisory Group, and
41:08
Speaker 2: I'm joined, of course by Todd Lutsky, a partner with
41:11
Speaker 2: the law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a masters
41:14
Speaker 2: in taxation. Todd, part of your guide for this month
41:18
Speaker 2: is all about how to protect children and your future generations.
41:22
Speaker 2: So I know a lot of parents worry about leaving
41:26
Speaker 2: too much money too soon to their children. What tools
41:31
Speaker 2: are available in a trust that can help control when
41:34
Speaker 2: and how your kids actually receive their inheritance.
41:39
Speaker 3: What I like to tell people about that is when
41:43
Speaker 3: they ask me, Okay, so how do we want to
41:45
Speaker 3: leave assets when you die, I say it's like good
41:48
Speaker 3: to be king because control from the grade, we can
41:51
Speaker 3: write anything you want. Yeah, I mean, there really is
41:54
Speaker 3: no parameters that you can't think of that might be
41:59
Speaker 3: something we can't do.
42:00
Speaker 2: So I can dream up any kind of circumstance for
42:04
Speaker 2: my kid's inheritance to be distributed, and then you your
42:08
Speaker 2: job is to.
42:09
Speaker 3: Sort of really in if I think it's not.
42:11
Speaker 2: Gonna work, or get the legal legal language to fit
42:15
Speaker 2: that need.
42:15
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, because there's there's things where like people don't
42:18
Speaker 3: they they think they can do certain things and then
42:21
Speaker 3: it doesn't work like. I remember this one person. It
42:23
Speaker 3: was Greek and he wanted to you know, they're big
42:27
Speaker 3: on marrying Greek and that's just keep it that way.
42:30
Speaker 3: That's how they are. And and he's like, my one
42:33
Speaker 3: daughter's not married yet, she only gets her inheritance if
42:36
Speaker 3: she's married to a Greek guy. I'm like, oh boy,
42:39
Speaker 3: how are we going to do that? I mean, I
42:40
Speaker 3: could write that, but you need to understand the reality
42:44
Speaker 3: writing and what's really going to happen in life. And
42:47
Speaker 3: that's my point. Is I going to guide people? Right,
42:49
Speaker 3: I'm like, you have to understand what this person was.
42:51
Speaker 3: If she gets married, no, no one, she will hate you. Two.
42:56
Speaker 3: She will simply say, I know, I got my Greek friend.
42:59
Speaker 3: What if she doesn't like bull You're going down many
43:03
Speaker 3: different scenarios. But in this case, my point was simply,
43:07
Speaker 3: what she'll simply do is find her friend. Yes, put
43:11
Speaker 3: an agreement together that says we're going to get married.
43:14
Speaker 3: I'm then going to get this much money. I'm going
43:17
Speaker 3: to give you this little piece, and we're going to
43:19
Speaker 3: file for divorce. And this is what's going to happen.
43:22
Speaker 3: And this is not what you want to leave as
43:24
Speaker 3: a legacy. So when I say yeah, you can do
43:27
Speaker 3: it anyway you want, you sort of need to guide
43:29
Speaker 3: people reason, you know, So I think the general rule
43:32
Speaker 3: just give you some ideas, right, obviously outright is certainly allowed. Again,
43:36
Speaker 3: no right or wrong answer here, Oh, I'll just give
43:39
Speaker 3: it to them. In staggered distributions not uncommon. When they
43:42
Speaker 3: reach twenty five or thirty or thirty five years of age,
43:44
Speaker 3: you can have one third paid out incrementally.
43:48
Speaker 2: Five years to think about what you've done. If you've
43:50
Speaker 2: blown it all in the first sweep.
43:52
Speaker 3: Exactly, it's sort of a maturation process for them. That's
43:55
Speaker 3: not a bad idea. And if they remember during that
43:59
Speaker 3: time period, distributions can still be made for health, education, welfare,
44:03
Speaker 3: and sports, so it can come out for good reason.
44:07
Speaker 3: It's just the lump sums come out incrementally so that
44:10
Speaker 3: you kind of learn about it. Nothing wrong with that.
44:14
Speaker 3: If you die in the interim, meaning after mom and
44:17
Speaker 3: dad are dead, but you die before reaching thirty but
44:20
Speaker 3: left kids, well then that piece is going to go
44:22
Speaker 3: to those kids, the grand kids, right, So that's okay.
44:27
Speaker 3: It stays in the bloodline, so you even have some
44:29
Speaker 3: bloodline planning with this staggered distribution idea again, okay way
44:34
Speaker 3: of doing it and maybe the again no right or
44:38
Speaker 3: wrong answer. The better way The krem the la creme
44:41
Speaker 3: is why don't I just hold it in trust for them?
44:44
Speaker 3: Allow them to be trustees, manage and invest the money,
44:47
Speaker 3: but not take it. If they want to take it,
44:50
Speaker 3: they have to appoint an independent trustee. Again, smart kids,
44:54
Speaker 3: level head kids. Give them the power to remove and
44:57
Speaker 3: replace that person anytime. So now they control them aspects.
45:03
Speaker 3: Here they control the outcome of this trust. They ask
45:06
Speaker 3: the independent trustee for distributions. The independent trustee gets to
45:10
Speaker 3: say yes or no. And it's that form of ownership
45:13
Speaker 3: that protects it from future divorces, creditors of any kind,
45:18
Speaker 3: therefore keeping it in the bloodline, protecting it from creditors.
45:22
Speaker 3: And even if there's never a divorce, it skips a
45:25
Speaker 3: generation for estate taxes because when they die, if they
45:29
Speaker 3: have not taken it yet, they don't own it. Therefore
45:32
Speaker 3: it passes down to the grandkids generation skipping tax free.
45:37
Speaker 3: This is generational building wealth that you can't fathom tax
45:43
Speaker 3: free yep.
45:43
Speaker 2: So that covers divorce, creditor protection, dependency issues.
45:50
Speaker 3: All of them are just preparing with money. Yeah, whatever
45:53
Speaker 3: you want. Yeah, really a wonderful way of doing it.
45:55
Speaker 3: So those are kind of some three general ideas, but
45:58
Speaker 3: you're really not limited. Can pick and choose what you
46:01
Speaker 3: want to do, folks. That part of a trust is
46:05
Speaker 3: the same, whether it's a simplicity of a joint revocable trust,
46:09
Speaker 3: or whether it's an irrevocable medicaid trust, or whether it's
46:13
Speaker 3: you know, a single or two separate irrevocable medicaid trust.
46:17
Speaker 3: How we leave things is the same, but you should
46:20
Speaker 3: get the guide. This simplicity of joint revocable trust is
46:23
Speaker 3: to kick off your estate planning and help you understand
46:27
Speaker 3: putting everything in one trust, cramming everything down on the
46:30
Speaker 3: first death, getting a step up in basis on more
46:33
Speaker 3: assets than you could if you split everything separately, and
46:37
Speaker 3: ultimately how you leave it. This guide explains all of that,
46:41
Speaker 3: as well as the actual tax savings that goes on.
46:46
Speaker 3: So call and get the guide. End of the month,
46:48
Speaker 3: Last chance to get it eight six six eight four
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Speaker 3: eight five six nine to nine or Legal Exchange Show
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Speaker 3: dot com. One more time eight six six eight four
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Speaker 3: eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot com.
47:05
Speaker 2: So Todd staying on that line of protecting your beneficiaries
47:11
Speaker 2: from themselves. So someone who might have dependency issues, whether
47:15
Speaker 2: it's drug addiction or gambling, whatever it is. That's fine
47:20
Speaker 2: for things that are in your trust and you're creating
47:22
Speaker 2: that share. But what do you do with your iras?
47:26
Speaker 2: Because people can have some substantial iras and if they say, okay,
47:31
Speaker 2: the trust is protected, we've got shares for the kids,
47:35
Speaker 2: what happens with the iras?
47:36
Speaker 3: Great? Great question. So the iras. While I'm sitting here
47:41
Speaker 3: just explaining a minute ago the simplicity of a joint trust,
47:43
Speaker 3: and I'm sitting here telling you throw everything in there.
47:45
Speaker 3: Throw everything in there Stept.
47:47
Speaker 5: Four.
47:47
Speaker 3: You're right, except for the iras, folks. Irase cannot go
47:51
Speaker 3: in there, which again is why you do a joint
47:53
Speaker 3: trust because there might be a large portion of assets
47:57
Speaker 3: that are not able to be sheltered on the first death.
48:00
Speaker 3: But the joint trust allows you to shelter all of
48:03
Speaker 3: the non qualified assets on the first AaTh, which is
48:06
Speaker 3: really important. And so this piece would just flow to
48:10
Speaker 3: the spouse. But then when the spouse dies, where does
48:14
Speaker 3: the IRA go? So it's let's talk for a minute.
48:17
Speaker 3: As a general rule, when you're doing a state planning
48:20
Speaker 3: and I tell this to my paralegals who fund these
48:22
Speaker 3: trust for my clients. If it's a revocable trust, I
48:27
Speaker 3: we'll just use a joint revocable trust. For now. The
48:31
Speaker 3: standard rule will be the primary beneficiary for a married
48:36
Speaker 3: couple will be the spouse. It's the best from an
48:41
Speaker 3: income tax standpoint, and that's going to carry the day today,
48:47
Speaker 3: not necessarily the best from an estate tax standpoint. But
48:49
Speaker 3: if I've got a joint trust, I'm okay, right, all right,
48:55
Speaker 3: The contingent beneficiary will be two choices. Make a look
49:00
Speaker 3: at the trust. If the trust says, as you just said, Susan,
49:05
Speaker 3: we're trying to control it. We're trying to protect it
49:08
Speaker 3: for creditors, for divorces, for kids with bad money, that
49:12
Speaker 3: divorce protection language is in the trust. All they have
49:15
Speaker 3: to do is look. If it's there, the contingent beneficiary
49:20
Speaker 3: will be the trust. If it just says, divide it
49:24
Speaker 3: equally to the kids and give it to them because
49:26
Speaker 3: we're not worried about it paid out, we don't want
49:28
Speaker 3: to control it from the grave, then the contingent beneficiary
49:32
Speaker 3: will be the kids. Because it can go right out.
49:35
Speaker 3: There's no reason to run it through the trust. Right,
49:39
Speaker 3: So those are your two choices. So in this case, Susan,
49:43
Speaker 3: we would make the primary the spouse the contingent the trust.
49:47
Speaker 3: The trust iras cannot get there while you're alive, but
49:50
Speaker 3: they can get to your trust when you're dead.
49:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're like life insurance that can just go
49:56
Speaker 2: straight right to.
49:57
Speaker 3: The trust primary beneficiary all the time. And there's good
50:01
Speaker 3: If a trust is designed right, there's not going to
50:03
Speaker 3: be any adverse required minimum distribution problems. Remember, if you
50:08
Speaker 3: leave it to a trust, I'm sorry. If you leave
50:10
Speaker 3: it to the kids, it's going to come out over
50:13
Speaker 3: ten years. If you leave it to the trust, it
50:15
Speaker 3: still has to come into the trust over ten years.
50:19
Speaker 3: At the end where folks call and get the guide
50:23
Speaker 3: the Simplicity of joint revocable trust, it's the end of
50:26
Speaker 3: the month, last chance to get it eight six six
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Speaker 3: eight four eight five six ninety nine or Legal Exchange
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Speaker 3: show dot com again eight sixty six eight four eight
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Speaker 3: five six ninety nine. It is the end of the month,
50:42
Speaker 3: call and get the guide.
50:43
Speaker 2: Todd Lutsky from the law firm of Cushing and Dolan,
50:46
Speaker 2: thank you so much.
50:47
Speaker 3: Always a pleasure Susan thank you.
50:49
Speaker 2: I'm Susan Power as a financial advisor with the Armstrong
50:52
Speaker 2: Advisory Group. We thank you for joining us today and
50:55
Speaker 2: we'll be back again next week on the Legal Exchange
50:58
Speaker 2: with Todd Lutsky.
51:00
Speaker 1: The state planning isn't just about taxes, It's about peace
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Speaker 1: Exchange show dot com. The proceeding was paid for in
51:50
Speaker 1: The views expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan.
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Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and or Armstrong Advisory may contact you
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