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Paul Skiba, Sarah Skiba & Lorenzo Chivers · Justice For

• JusticeFor: Hey, guys, and welcome to season three of Justice for our podcast. Can you believe that? I cannot believe it. Like, I feel like we were just sitting here going, welcome to season one, guys. Yeah. Welcome to our very first episode. Yes, and we're in the same room. We are in same room. were just over there by the window. Yeah. We've come so far. Look at our setup. We're not on beanbags anymore. I loved those beanbags though. It's so nostalgic. We have better lighting. We do. We're just, Look at the growth. Look at the growth. Look at us go. And honestly, it's because of you guys. Thank you so much. We've said it time and time again. Of course we would be doing this, but you guys just make it to where We enjoy doing it even more. So thank you. have absolutely been loving this journey. We have so much in store for you all for season three. Yes. We might be lining up some guests. You know, just little spoiler. It's been in the talks for a while. It has. With things that are transpiring, it's going to happen. Yeah, we've got some pretty cool things for you this season. We're just so happy for all of our new followers that are here joining us. This season and coming into season three with us and thank you to those of you who have been here since day one Supporting us we we see y'all every single episode reacting commenting letting us know your thoughts. So please keep all that coming. Mm-hmm. But in for ⁓ we have to our season opener with a missing person from Colorado Colorado case every time yeah we're gonna talk about a 27 year old cold case here in Colorado. That is definitely solvable So on that note, welcome back to Justice For, we are your hosts. I'm Jackie. And I'm Sam. ⁓ my gosh, I'm so excited. So Sam and I started this podcast because we wanted to make a difference to give a voice to victims after theirs was taken from them and to help bring justice to families who are still searching, still waiting. Today felt like an opportunity to do exactly that because the case we're talking about isn't just any case. It's a 27 year unsolved triple missing persons slash homicide case that happened right here in Colorado. This isn't a cold case because it can't be solved. This is a very solvable case. In fact, I truly believe we could see answers in the next five years. Which is where y'all come in. You may not know these people or this case, but something you hear might spark a memory. Maybe it's a conversation you overheard years ago. Something that didn't seem strange at the time, but now does. We've seen it happen before. Cases solved because someone listened to a podcast about a story they thought had nothing to do with them, only to realize they held a key piece of information all along. So listen carefully and keep an open mind. You never know. You could be the key piece to solving a 27-year-old cold case. Also, if you happen to be at our live show that happened on the 16th of April, you've heard this already. But there might be some details in here that weren't at the live show. So you might want to listen anyway. Do it. Do it. Listen to it. So as always, are you ready? No. I'm never ready. I'm never ready. I know. But I have to ask anyway. I'm going to be real with you guys. So we're actually recording this before our live. Which we never do. We usually record it afterwards. We never do it. So you have like raw, genuine reaction during the lives. But. some things happened and we needed to record this before. definitely, needed a little bit of Sam's help for this live, so I her to hear this before y'all heard this. ⁓ All right. ⁓ You ready? ⁓ Sunday, February 7th, ⁓ 1999. In Westminster, Colorado, 38-year-old Paul Skiba and his nine-year-old daughter, Sarah Skiba, along with his coworker, 36-year-old Lorenzo chivers, seem to have disappeared without a trace. Well, that last part is up for debate depending on who you're talking to. If you talk to the officers who initially investigated, they would say without a trace. But if you ask a family member or current law enforcement investigating this case, they would tell you differently. Paul Skiba lived in Thornton, Colorado and owned a moving company called Tuff Movers. But it was located in Westminster, which if you're not from Denver, these two places are very close together. is all like, it's kind of like considered one little metropolitan area of Denver, the Broomfield, Westminster, Thornton area. Yeah. Imagine Denver is in the middle and all of these like little pockets of suburbs are surrounding it. We're a little bit west to Denver. Correct. So, Tuff Movers was located off 72nd Avenue and Raleigh Street. At this time, Paul had been divorced for about six years from his ex-wife, Michelle Russell, who was also Sarah's mother. After the divorce, Michelle and Sarah moved to Granby, which is about 90 miles west of Thornton, kind of in the mountains a little bit. Yeah. That's not a terrible distance it's not a terrible distance. But you know, snow and all that crap? Especially if you have to go up 70. Yikes. After a long and hard fight, Michelle and Paul had worked out the following custody agreement. During the school year, Paul would drive to Granby on Wednesday nights, and he and Sarah would spend the night at a hotel, which of course always had a pool, because you know, nine-year-old priorities. It's valid. Then every other weekend, he would pick Sarah up on Friday after school and bring her to Thornton before returning her to Granby on Sunday. Sarah also spent her summer vacations with Paul, and during that time, Michelle would have visitation with her. Okay. Sarah was Paul's entire world. He was always thinking about things they could do when they were together. One time on the way to a move, Paul stopped and took a rocking chair out of the trash pile, said he was going to reupholster it for Sarah's room. So it should be no surprise that Paul was very serious about his time with Sarah. He fought really hard to get the custody arrangement that he had, so he was very careful about not even being one minute late to pick up or drop off Sarah. And he never missed a visit. Period. He tried very hard not to work during his scheduled time with Sarah so he could focus solely on her. But being a small business owner, things would come up and it's not always possible to stay away from work. When Paul's parents got divorced, he sought us an opportunity to ask his mom Sharon to move from Minnesota to Colorado. And he offered to take care of her in exchange for her helping out with Sarah in the summertime and occasionally on the weekends if he had to work. It turned out to be a great arrangement for the three of them. That is until Paul's on again, off again, girlfriend, Teresa Donovan got pregnant. And she gave birth to Paul Roger Skiba in late 1998. See what had happened was Paul and Teresa dated on and off for a few years before they called it quits for good. But you know, like a few weeks later after their breakup, they did the typical thing, got together and hooked up one last time. Naturally. Breakup sex? Yeah. And that resulted in Teresa getting pregnant. Great. Paul was skeptical that the baby wasn't actually his. Understandable. But Paul loved being a dad. He supported Teresa and in April of 1998, he got her a trailer to live in. Because living with him and Sharon and Sarah was not an option at the time. That is until November when Paul moved Teresa into the house because she was nearing her due date and he wanted to make sure Teresa was taking care of herself and the baby. Let me explain his concerns. Teresa was 10 years younger than him and she couldn't work due to having really bad arthritis in her legs and she was actually on disability. It was said that Paul sometimes had to carry Teresa up or down the stairs because of how bad the pain in her legs could get. And actually this came from her mom. Okay. Yeah. So just, just keep that in mind. So it's going to be important later. Okay. How old was Paul again? Uh, he was 38 at the time of this happening. if she was 10 years younger than him, she was 28. 27, 28. Sharon did not like Teresa. She did not like her being with Paul. And she definitely didn't like the idea of her living in the house. Not long after Teresa moved in, Sharon started complaining to Paul about how lazy Teresa was and that she wasn't taking care of the baby. She was sleeping all day. And one thing that just really rubbed Sharon the wrong way was when Paul would have guests over, Teresa would just stay in the bedroom. Never even coming out to say hi. Hmm. You know, that old school way of like etiquette and everything. Sharon just wasn't having it. And she just thought that Paul deserved so much better. I'm going to be in my room pretending I don't exist. Yes, pretty much. It also didn't take long for Paul to become fed up with Teresa living at the house. ⁓ He started telling friends that he would come home to find Sarah watching the baby while Teresa was partying next door. And let me remind you, Sarah is nine. And Paul Roger is a newborn. He was sick of her not doing anything. He told his friends that he was going to get a paternity test and if Paul Roger was his, he was going to take her to court for full custody. Which brings us to the week leading up to Sunday, February 7th. bitch, no way. Sharon had to go back to Minnesota to sort out some things from her mother passing away. Paul drove Sharon to the airport and on way told her that he was kicking Theresa out of the house this weekend. and telling her that he was getting a paternity test done and going after full custody. Later that week, Rich Lameister, one of Paul's good friends and his wife Carol came over for dinner. At some point in the night, Rich and Paul went in the basement and Paul just vented to Rich about Teresa and how he was so upset over her not taking care of the baby and leaving Sarah to take care of him. And he told Rich that he was kicking Teresa out and getting a paternity test. On Friday night, Sharon called Paul, but their conversation was very brief as he was making dinner for Sarah and it was kind of a chaotic evening. But he did tell her that he still planned on talking to Teresa and telling her that she had till Sunday to pack her things and leave and that he would call her on Sunday evening to let her know how it all went. ⁓ on Saturday morning, Jerry Bybee, a friend and coworker of Paul's dropped off his 11 year old son, Matthew, to hang out with Sarah. while he did a few moving jobs for Tuff Movers. ⁓ He asked Paul if he could have the next day Sunday off so that he could get together with his siblings and begin making arrangements for his grandfather's funeral. Paul, being the great business owner that he is and friend, he agreed that he could have the day off even if it meant taking Sarah with him on the jobs. Paul immediately called his mom and asked if she could come home early to watch Sarah the next day. Hell He really didn't like leaving Sarah with Teresa and wasn't sure how all of this was about to go down after telling her to move out. Yeah. I mean, I know that it could ultimately look bad to Michelle, his ex-wife, right? being like, hey, something came up. Can I please bring Sarah home early? Yeah. Or pick her up, or, like, switch weekends, something like that. Yeah. He definitely never gave up any of his visiting time, and he just always made it work. That's fair. So Sharon wasn't able to come home early. She still had a lot to do with her mother's apartment, among other things. And it wasn't what Paul wanted to hear, but like he said before, if he had to, he would just take her with him. It isn't a big deal. She's nine. Honestly, My husband worked for a moving company when our daughter was little and she used to beg him to be able to come to work with him. So like for a nine year old, this was not a like, I mean, it was probably boring day halfway through the day, but like there's, there's a lot of jobs that a little kid can do on a move. Um, that's useful. So, I mean, I'm sure it was, they made a great day out. Yes. And I'm sure, you know, the people who are getting the movers like, oh, you putting them to work early, like making jumps often right too. Oh yeah. And she was probably spoiled. They probably were feeding her or whatever. You what I mean? So Sarah and Matthew ended up spending most of the day Saturday outside due to the loud argument that Teresa and Paul were having throughout the day. Oh, period. Sunday, February 7th at 830 a.m. Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo chivers met at Tuff Movers. Their first job was scheduled for 1030 in Thornton. Around 1 p.m. they stopped for lunch in Lakewood. Then they headed to a move in Morrison, followed by another job in the Golden area. Okay. Sometime between 5 and 6, Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo returned to the Tuff Movers' Lot. This next part It is confirmed, but it's not entirely confirmed. Around 520, it is believed, but not proven through phone records, that Sarah made a phone call to a cousin or family member about almost being home or not coming home. I have seen where it was a cousin of Teresa's or just a family member. It's not known which was said, but both could be possible as in coming home to Granby or not coming back. to Paul's house because she's going back to Granby. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. It's also not known if this call was made from the Tuff Movers office or if it was made from a cell phone. It is 1999. They had bricks. Yes. So I have not been able to find out clearly and you will understand why in a bit. Okay. But it is confirmed that there was a call. There was a phone call that Sarah made around 5 20 that day. Okay. Whether it was from a truck or from the office is not known. Okay. As soon as Paul doesn't show up to drop Sarah off at their scheduled time, Michelle begins calling Paul over and over and all she gets is his voicemail. Michelle then called her attorney to ask what she should do. And I know that seems a little bit extreme. But there's something I haven't told y'all yet. Michelle and Paul had recently been in court because Michelle possibly wanting to move out of state with Sarah. She thought this might've spooked Paul. So together they made the decision to report Sarah missing to the Granby Sheriff's Office. The following day, a warrant for Paul's arrest for non-custodial abduction was put out. Wow, what a jump. Sarah wasn't believed to be in danger at this point because Michelle was unaware that there were actually three people missing, not just two. Mm hmm. Which brings us to Lorenzo chivers also being missing. Mm hmm. Real quick, let me give you some background. like, don't even know who the fuck he is. Lorenzo was currently separated from his wife, Misha, and they share a 15 year old son, Josh, and a 12 year old daughter, Aubrey. OK. Misha and Aubrey live together. while Lorenzo and Josh lived in an apartment with Lorenzo's girlfriend, Bobby Joe Donovan. Cute. Did you catch that? Bobby Joe. Donovan. As in, Teresa's sister? Bitch what? Yeah. Even though Lorenzo and Misha were separated, he was, and he was dating Bobby Joe, Misha and Lorenzo were actually talking about getting back together. ⁓ So Monday morning, Josh calls his mom Misha and tells her that Lorenzo never came home last night. And when he woke up this morning, his dad still wasn't home. Not knowing what to think of this, Misha asked to speak to Bobby Joe, who told her, quote, I know he is not coming home. I know something horrible has happened to him. What the fuck? End quote. What the fuck? Sam's reaction. That was a good one. Thanks. While this conversation is going on, Theresa called Sharon and let her know that Paul never came home and that she talked to her sister, Bobby Jo, and that Lorenzo also hadn't come home. So together they called the Thornton Police Department and reported Paul and Lorenzo missing. Huh. Sharon knew something was wrong. So when she got off the phone with Teresa, she immediately called the Thornton Police Department one, because she don't trust Teresa's ass into because she wanted it done right. I'm curious why Teresa's first call was to his mom and just not straight up the cops or like. ⁓ no, they already called them in missing before she called her and so so like she talked to Bobby Joe and Bobby Joe's like, hey, Lorenzo never came home. Yeah. And Teresa was like, hey. Paul never came home either. And so they called and reported him missing to Thornton and then Sharon. And then she called Sharon. Yeah. And she called Sharon and then Sharon called and reported him missing. Okay. So they have three separate people who have called in a missing person. Yep. Two in Thornton, one in Granby. Perfect. So Granby is Sarah and Paul. Thornton is Lorenzo, Paul and Sarah. Because they said Sarah also. So, Theresa and Bobby Joe reported Lorenzo and Paul. When Sharon called the Thornton Police Department, she reported her son and granddaughter missing. She spoke with Detective Carbone, who seemed to not be concerned about Paul and Sarah being missing, telling Sharon that Paul probably just took Sarah out for a good time and... Ew. They just lost track of time. What the fuck? All night? Yeah. With a nine-year-old? insisted that Paul would never jeopardize his time with Sarah like that after he fought for the custody arrangement that he had. But the detective just said, I'm sure he'll show back up any time. Ugh. Later that morning between 9.30 and 10, Jerry Bybee showed up at Tuff Movers. He was scheduled to do a few moves with Paul and Lorenzo that day. Mm-hmm. ⁓ was running late due to overindulging the night before with his siblings. Period. But when he showed up, there was no one there, which was odd, but not as odd as the big truck Paul liked to use being pulled in at a really weird angle, something Paul never did. You see, he was a neat freak when it came to how things were organized and the trucks were parked. So Jerry thought to himself, oh, this is going to be a good story when I finally see Paul. He said it looked like somebody had just pulled into the lot going 50 miles an hour and slammed the brakes on. Is how the truck seemed to be in there. When Jerry went to open the gate, he discovered the lock had been changed. Which honestly wasn't super crazy considering when Paul fired someone, he would change the lock to the lock. Understandable. So now Jerry was really ready for a crazy story about the day before. who got fired? Yes, because he wanted that tea. At this point in time, Paul, Lorenzo, and Jerry worked for Tuff Movers. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so. So he's like, what'd Lorenzo do? So he just sat outside the gate and he waited and he waited. But neither Paul nor Lorenzo ever showed up. Jerry just felt like something was really wrong. He had known Paul for 15 years. This was not like him at all. So Jerry called the Westminster Police Department, who didn't seem very concerned at all, but they took the report anyway. Bro. I... I'm so... So now we have three police departments involved. Yeah. Granby, Thornton, and Westminster. At some point that day, police do go out to Paul's home and speak with Teresa. But it was very brief. And for some reason, the Granby Sheriff's Office, Thornton Police, and Westminster Police Departments didn't really seem concerned that three people were missing, one of which was a nine-year-old little girl. In fact, no resources were put into finding them or into releasing info about them. Even Paul's warrant was just a warrant. It wasn't being plastered on the news or anything. No BOLO went out and police were just in the thought process that Paul would eventually show back up with Sarah. This is also before Amber Alerts, I'm pretty sure. So they couldn't put an Amber Alert out on She wouldn't have fit into an Amber Alert. They were reviewing it as a non-custodial... ⁓ not harmful custodial Yeah, the non-custodial parent just has her. That's all they were reviewing it as. It wasn't until Wednesday that Jerry finally convinced the Westminster Police Department to send an officer out to Tuff Movers to look around. I'm sorry. ⁓ Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo had been missing for three days at this point. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. When the officer got there, he told Jerry to unlock the gate. Jerry told the officer, don't have a key, and I don't want to cut the lock in case it was evidence. Yeah. This apparently irritated the officer because he got into his police car, proceeded to slam it into the fence before getting out, climbing on top of the hood, and jumping over the gate. He then turned to Jerry and went, you coming? What the fuck? Once inside, was looking around, trying to think what was out of place or different about the lot since he locked it up on Saturday night. That's when he noticed a giant puddle of oil, partly covered by a piece of plywood. This was definitely odd, so Jerry pointed out to the officer, who simply replied, can you prove you didn't change the oil? Westminster police. Jerry then directed his attention to the big truck that was parked weird. There's two trucks we're going to be talking about. The truck that Paul and Lorenzo used for the moves on Sunday is referred to as the big truck. The other truck doesn't have an engine in it. We'll get there. So he went up to the truck and he climbed up to look in the window inside, but he made sure to do it without touching anything. For those of you who have never done this on a truck like this, it's not hard. You literally can hold your hands out and you core strength out the ass, Jerry, by the way, you got some core strength, buddy, because he climbed up without touching anything, which means you just basically get up up on the step and he kind of looked around. He just looked around like that. And as he looked inside the window, he noticed that the cab of the truck was like spotless clean. And that is not normal for moving trucks. are usually dirty in there. They live in those trucks. And even though Paul was meticulous about stuff and cleaning everything, the cab of the trucks was not one of them. They were always being used for stuff. So Jerry points this out to the officer telling him, We live in these trucks. This is too clean. The officer just grabbed the door handle, flung it open, looked around inside the cab briefly, glanced around the lot and told Jerry he isn't convinced a crime happened here and he left. To say Jerry was pissed is an understatement, and I quote, feel like he destroyed more evidence than he was willing to look at. To him, there is nothing unusual there. I was disgusted with him, end quote. The following day, Thursday, Misha and Josh went over to Bobby Joe's apartment so that Josh could grab some clothes and things to take back to his mom's house. When they got there, they found all of Josh's belongings packed up in boxes waiting for them by the front door. What the fuck? Did she know he was coming? Mm-hmm. That's why Bobby Joe packed up all of her stuff. And was just like, mm, here. So we already have Bobby Joe telling us that something horrible happened. He's never coming back. now she's so sure about it, she packed all of his stuff up. Sharon was absolutely fed up with the Thornton Police Department. By the time she arrived back in Colorado Saturday, February 13th, she had called them every day and they just kept telling her not to worry. Paul will show back up with Sarah at some point. But Sharon knew her son. She knew that he would never risk losing this custody arrangement. He worked way too hard for it. Not only that, but she was also fed up with Teresa who was still living in Paul's house when she returned. In one of the phone conversations that Sarah had with Teresa while she was still in Minnesota, Teresa told Sharon that she had gone to a psychic who told her that Paul and Sarah were dead and that Paul's car would be by a gravelly area near a Laker River. Sharon decided to take matters into her own hands. She grabbed the phone book and hired a helicopter to fly her over tough movers in the surrounding area of Brighton due to what Teresa had told her. She was looking for Paul's car, a 1972 Chevelle. Unfortunately, they didn't find anything during this helicopter search. I want to point out we've had a couple of cases recently from Westminster that had to do with like tarot cards and fucking psychics. Oh, we get psychics again in this too. Hell yeah. People like Colorado aren't that bad. I promise you. We just be finding them. Yeah. All right. Now I'm going to need y'all to buckle up for this next part. What kind of buckler are we talking here? Girlfriend pick. Take your pick. Just based off of everything I know right now, we're going five point. Yeah. For some reason on Sunday, exactly one week since the three went missing, Teresa decides to call Rich Lameister and let him know that Paul and Sarah were missing. Who? Rich, Paul's best friend. Remember Rich and Carol came over for dinner? Got it. Paul vented to Rich about everything? Yep, yep, yep. Okay. This was the first time Rich was hearing about this. Him and his wife Carol felt like they needed to do something. Paul was always there for everybody else. They needed to be there for him. So they made up some flyers and spent the whole morning hanging them around town. Unfortunately, they had the wrong license plate for Paul's car, but their hearts were in the right spot. They the wrong license plate. Yes. Okay. But their hearts were in right spot. Totally. Later that afternoon, called Sharon up and agreed to meet at the Tuff Movers lot. Okay. And had actually been doing engine work on that truck, the truck without the engine. Yeah. He had been replacing it over the past few months. So he had been in and out of that lot frequently lately. Like Jerry, when Rich arrived, he immediately noticed the new lock on the gate and that the big truck was parked in a way that he had never seen it parked. ⁓ Rich Carol told Sharon that to wait outside the gate and they were going to go in and look around. They hopped the gate and began looking around. Rich noticed the large oil stain noting that that was weird. And as they started looking closer, Rich noticed bullet holes in the side of the moving truck that he had been replacing the engine in. Then Carol discovered a smear of blood on the big truck's door that looked like it was from someone's sleeve, like a shirt sleeve, like brushed against it like an imprint. They decided to look over the big truck more. And that's when they both saw a small chunk of scalp near the windshield. Which is when they decided to nope the fuck out. They went back to Sharon and told her it doesn't look good and that they need to call the police now. Let me remind you. The truck that the officer opened the door and looked inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had scalp on the windshield. have... Remember, Jerry wasn't truck... or like... Like dashboard type of Dashboard situation kind of guy. Remember, Jerry was not trying to compromise any evidence. Correct. The cop came in and... So he didn't get up that close. But this cop literally opened it and had his face in the cab of the truck. And missed this. All right. Sharon immediately calls her ex-husband and her son Gordy, who still lived in Minnesota, and told them they needed to get to Colorado now. She then called the Westminster police to come back out to Tuff Movers and take a real look around. Okay. When officers arrived at Tuff Movers, they fought Rich, Carol, and Sharon on every little thing. What the fuck, brother? Rich tells them, also, they're not going in the gate. They're literally standing outside the gate. So Rich is like, hey, there's bullet holes in this truck. And the officer goes, well, maybe the truck was shot at while out on a job. Rich goes, there's no engine in it and hasn't been for a good month or so. ⁓ it was probably shot out on the job. The oil puddle? Once again, can you prove he didn't change his oil? I'm... The blood on the side of the truck? Someone could have cut themselves and that's just how it got there. The scalp? It's not really talked about with their argument in there. Because there's no argument. Someone's piece of their fucking head. Rich is begging the officers to use luminol in the big truck. And they are just flat out refusing. The officer started arguing about which town had the jurisdiction because the missing persons reports were in Thornton and the businesses in Westminster. There was a missing person in Westminster though. He just called in the suspicious lie and that Paulin Learnzo hadn't shown up. By this point it's almost 10 p.m. and Sharon has to leave to the airport to pick up her ex-husband and son. So she calls a family friend out to help Rachel and Carol while she's gone. This goes on long enough for Sharon to actually return from DIA. With her ex-husband and son. Bro, DIA is a fucking trek. Especially because, well she looked at like 10 o'clock at night and got them and came back. Yeah. A little bit after midnight, a Thornton police officer finally arrives. things get heated again while Paul's friends and family are trying to tell the officers all the evidence that points to the fact that something horrible happened here. Rich said, that's when the police threatened to have us all arrested if we didn't leave because there was no crime committed here and we should all go home. Why? Why? I would love to know. After a few more hours of arguing. Around 3am, police took down everyone's info and said that they would wait there until the trucks were towed away as Sharon asked them to do simple thing. ⁓ sure they close and lock the gate behind them. The next morning, Sharon found the gate to Tuff Movers wide open, ⁓ even police tape to mark it off. Authorities then released some info to the news station saying they're looking for a trio that disappeared a week ago that may be related to a custody dispute. I haven't been this upset with police officers in a minute. In a hot fucking minute. You're starting to understand this could have been an easily solved case? It was clear to Sharon and Paul's friends that the police were not taking this seriously. So it would be up to them to find out what happened to Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo. tough movers as a central point, Sharon, Rich, Carol, Jerry, Gordy, and Paul's dad basically did a grid search. They looked down every street, alley, and parking lot looking for Lorenzo's and Paul's cars. Because guess what? Their cars weren't in the tough movers lot. It was off of a gravel road, Jackie. The psychic told me. Don't, don't, don't wave your finger at me like that. keep that in your head. They looked on every street alley and parking lot looking for Lorenzo and Paul's cars. They walked the neighborhoods checking culverts. Open fields, large sewer pipes that were being put in for new construction, looking for anything related to what could have happened. They were looking for drag marks, blood, clothing, personal items, not even knowing what they were looking for half the time. Meant they were looking for everything. They covered a several mile radius out from tough movers. After two days of looking, Jerry found Lorenzo's car in a Westminster parking lot. Unfortunately, it was cleaned inside and not even a fingerprint was found. After a week of searching, Paul's brother Gordy had to get back home to Minnesota and he left Colorado believing his brother was dead. Mm hmm. I mean, look at the evidence. ⁓ and I haven't even told you about the evidence yet. Fuck my life. Because the police don't care about it yet. A few days later, the Denver Police Department found Paul's car in apartment complex near South Federal in West Arkansas. outside of Paul's car was covered in mud. Inside the car were Paul's belongings and Sarah's backpack, which was still full of beanie babies. You know, 1999. Oh, I know. Like Lorenzo's car, the inside was completely wiped down. Not even a fingerprint left. Also, side note. Paul was known for keeping his car very clean inside and out, but the inside was way too clean. For Paul, standard. For Paul and having a nine year old that weekend. Valid. Sharon was holding out hope that Paul was still out there and he was coming home. ⁓ She wanted make sure that he had his business when he came back. ⁓ So after few weeks, she asked the Thornton Police Department to return one of the trucks once they were done with it. You know, ⁓ as long they were done collecting evidence, which they did. But to Sharon's absolute shock, the big truck still had bits of scalp and hair on it. So she called the police department up and asked them, do you normally give back a vehicle that still has evidence on it? End quote. Period, Sharon. Go for you, girl. I want a bag and a tag mesh in my damn self, This is when the CBI officially enters the chat and shows up at Tuff Movers. I know Sharon has something to do with that. Let me remind you it has now been several weeks since the trio went missing. Yeah. The CBI is not playing around. They know a crime scene when they see one. Crazy, right? For the first time, luminol is used on the big truck. I bet that shit lit up like a fucking Christmas tree, didn't it? And wouldn't you know it, the cab of the truck and the back of the truck lit up like a damn Christmas tree. It's like I know you or something Yeah, so ⁓ did you catch that? The Westminster police took these trucks. They didn't do anything. just sat there. They did nothing with them. They took the trucks to appease the people, the family. But they literally did nothing to it. ⁓ yeah, remember that pool of oil on the ground covered by plywood? Yeah. Yeah, it was blood mixed with motor oil. I had a feeling. The scout found by the windshield? It was Paul's. The hair stuck in the fender of the truck? Was Sarah's. Ugh. They also discovered that the big truck is missing a long moving ramp. ⁓ As well as moving blankets. They also find vegetation and dirt on the truck that would only be there if the truck had been near water. DNA results showed that all of the blood at the scene belonged to Paul and Sarah. of it belonged to Lorenzo. There was also enough blood evidence found to suggest that Paul and Sarah had been fatally wounded in the Tuff Movers Lot. ⁓ Five ⁓ ⁓ Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo went missing, the Thornton Police and the CBI say they now have enough evidence to suggest foul play and that maybe this wasn't a custody dispute after all. I'm praying that you let me know that all of those officers were sued. I'm praying for this moment. Don't look at me like, no. Honey, I wish. Spoiler alert. There's no civil lawsuits involved in this case whatsoever. So now that the police have caught up to the rest of us, they start actually investigating. While talking to people in the area surrounding tough movers, witnesses said that they saw the big truck leave the lot around seven or eight and returned around midnight. Okay. Witnesses also report to have heard a woman scream coming from the area of the Tuff Movers Lot. A woman's? A woman's scream. Not a girl, not a man. A woman. Specifically a woman's scream. Jerry Bybee also told police that when he first talked to Teresa the next day, she told him that she had gone to the lot that night, but to not tell anyone or the police. Oh. Okay. With this new timeline, police determined that wherever Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo were taken can only be an hour or two away. That makes sense. So they began searching nearby lakes, bringing in the nationally recognized Necro Search Team to help. They also used bloodhounds and even psychics. One of whom directed them to an area with flat rocks near the Flatiron Crossing area. nothing was ever found in any of searches. But all the evidence was leading them to believe that Paul, Sarah and Lorenzo were ambushed in the Tuff Movers parking lot when they returned. Paul and Sarah were fatally wounded in the lot. And since Lorenzo's DNA was found nowhere and his car was found abandoned, it was determined that he was a victim as well, most likely killed at the location where the bodies were disposed at. Lorenzo was? Yeah. Okay. Just the why and exactly how it all went down is not so clear. Mainly because of the delay in the investigation of the lot, but also How does Sarah fit into all of this? An innocent nine-year-old girl? Wrong place, wrong time. Before we get into suspicious people in Paul's life, let's talk about Teresa. So what was... at the top of my motherfucking list of suspicious people, but okay. Well, yeah. I mean, she is part of the suspicious people, but we'll get it. So what was Teresa doing this whole time while everyone was trying to figure out what happened? Probably not taking care of her child. She was going through all of Paul's things to find life insurance policies. ⁓ that bitch. She found two policies, one for $100,000 and ⁓ Sarah was the sole beneficiary and then a smaller one that listed Sharon and Sarah as beneficiaries. She was also trying to figure out who gets the business and what happens to all Paul's stuff, including the house. When Teresa couldn't find anything with her name on it, she decided to move out the house. Sharon wasted no time changing those locks. Unfortunately. Sharon trying to do the right thing and have her son's business and life waiting for him when he returned turned out to be the biggest mistake she could have made of all because of Teresa's greedy ass. ⁓ no. Sharon is... My heart breaks for Sharon and I'm not gonna fully go into the ways that Teresa and Paul being messing for so long destroyed her entire life. Because it would be another 30 minutes of this episode, but it is... It's heartbreaking what Sharon had to go through. I'm just going to say that. April, Teresa decided to take Sharon to court to argue that she should be in control of Paul's assets, not Sharon. Since Teresa and Paul were never married, Sharon was automatically appointed temporary conservator of Paul's estate because she is next of kin. And she was on a life insurance policy. Yes, that way she could pay all the bills, including the two mortgages Paul had, and run the business. Okay. But Teresa was now claiming that she and Paul were common-law married, and therefore it should be her in control of Paul's estate. Please don't tell me she won that shit. At the hearing on April 16th, when asked to tell the court why she was going through all this trouble to be here today, and object to all of this, Teresa replied, quote, For the sake of my son Paul Roger, because I believe that he is entitled to Paul Skiba's things. He is the only heir. If they never come back, he's the only heir to everything that Paul had. If Sarah was here, Paul would want Sarah to have his things. He always wanted his children to have his things. Eww. Teresa then proceeded to tell the court that after Paul Roger was born, she considered herself married to Paul. Paul had even bought her a ring that she called her wedding ring. As for why she didn't use the last name Skeev on documents or call herself married in public, well that was easy. It was because she was worried about losing her insurance. As long as she stayed single, she could stay on her mom's insurance. She... Because with her disability and everything. ⁓ huh. She brought up the fact that Paul and her are listed as married on the rental application for the trailer. Are they? Sharon's attorney came over prepared with witnesses. The judge even made a comment that there were more people in the courtroom today for this hearing than he has ever seen for a murder trial in the courtroom. Period. The trailer park manager said that, yeah, they were listed as married on the rental application, but that's only because she told Paul it'd be cheaper for them to rent it that way. Mr. Skiba had intended to be married, it would probably have been Sharon Skiba who would be getting the trailer and not Miss Donovan. End of quote. was then appointed conservator, but there was still the matter of child support because Paul had signed Paul Rodgers birth certificate and given the child his last name. We didn't really have to paternity. It's a greedy ass bitch. A few months later, the court decided on the amount that Sharon would pay Teresa on behalf of Paul's estate. Hold on. I have a question. Why didn't they test for paternity? Because signed the birth certificate and he given his last name. That was enough. last like she like Sharon wanted a paternity test done. He got denied. Down the road in another state, Teresa had a paternity test done and sent to Sharon. Sharon didn't believe it. Eventually there was a paternity test done and it was proven that that paternity test came into play. Sharon said she saw Pawskeba across the courtroom, across the aisle courtroom and said that she didn't even believe the results that were presented. at a later time. baby Paul's keeping. So there has been paternity tests done by Teresa that prove that Paul's the baby. None of them have been released and Sharon and friends and family don't believe any of them, but I do believe one was good enough for the court. Interesting. Yes. Okay. That part is very like... Should have just called Mari. Right. Right. Since we're talking about Teresa already, let's talk about her interview with police. She told them all about how Paul was renting parking spots out at the Tuff Movers Lots drug dealers and that Paul was actually selling marijuana But it was the coke dealers that he had really pissed off when he told them that they could no longer park there and kicked him out When investigators looked into Paul's past they discovered a history that could support Teresa's claims ⁓ Something I haven't told you yet. Uh-huh is that Paul's dad was a police officer in Minnesota and Paul was a regular small-time troublemaker in his small town. That is until he ended up with a misdemeanor drug charge and Paul decided to skip town. When he got to Denver, he decided to go by Craig Nelson. And this didn't last long because he was eventually picked up on a warrant. After this, he went back to using his real name, but not staying out of trouble. In 1988, he pled guilty for false reporting. In 1990, he was charged with harassment, which he pleaded down to disorderly conduct. In 91, he was charged with menacing and got probation. After that probation ended, he got a charge related marijuana possession. But after that, Paul seemed to kind of straighten his life out. He got a job at a student mover company to another company. He met Michelle. He, I mean, he really enjoyed the moving industry and turned it into a career. ⁓ last employer was ⁓ calling it quits on the business and he ⁓ a second mortgage out and bought the trucks. ⁓ he started Tuff Movers. ⁓ that's why Sharon had two mortgages to pay. sense. Investigators took ⁓ all of and came up with the following theory. ⁓ Paul, Sarah Lorenzo were ambushed by either disgruntled drug dealers who Paul had wronged or a competitor who was wanting to get rid of Paul's small time marijuana business. Lorenzo and Sarah just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's it. That's the whole theory. Completely ignoring the other possible suspects in Paul's life that Jerry and Rich pointed out to investigators. Like Teresa or Bobby Joe. ⁓ there's other ones though. So Jerry described Paul as the kind of guy who would give you the shirt off his back. He was always there to help and was well liked in the community. Paul was there for Rich through his first wife's cancer diagnosis and her passing. And when Carol entered the picture, he made sure everyone made her feel welcome. ⁓ Paul's generosity his habit of seeing the good in people. ended up with him sometimes not hiring the best people to work for him. He definitely pissed some people off by firing them. He wasn't perfect. There were definitely people to look at other than the supposed drug dealers renting the parking spaces. Yeah. Which is still technically alleged. Yes. Okay. Which brings us to suspicious people, because no one has ever officially been named a suspect or a person of interest in this case. Okay. Let's start with Paul's cousin, Herbert Himes. ⁓ Paul and Himes were once partners in Tuff Movers. But in the late 80s, Himes was sentenced to six years for aggravated robbery. After getting out of prison, he went back to Tuff Movers. But Paul caught him taking money from the business and just fired him and cut him out. Didn't report it, didn't get him arrested again. None of that. Just was like, and we're done. Period. When asked about all this, Heim said, I quote, I quit the business because I was making more money in the stock market. I don't know nothing about this case. Kiss my ass. End quote. Okay. Alright, hell yeah. Right? Like, I don't know why, but that's like one of my favorite quotes in the whole thing. Kiss my ass. Rich told investigators that Himes once told him that he would get even with Paul one day for firing him. Okay, don't fucking steal money from a company. What a fucking idea. Crazy. It's crazy how, you know, people's morals point in different directions. Personally, my favorite non-suspect suspect is Teresa's brother, Tom Donovan. Okay. He'd been fired by Paul a few months before. Is that the picture you showed me? Yeah. Okay. Has nothing to with this case for that picture, by the way. He'd been fired by Paul a few months before, and he had a temper. Lorenzo was actually hired to replace Tom. That was not all. After the trios's disappearance, Jerry was on his way to a move when he saw Tom and he, Tom started yelling at him, you're next, you're next, while throwing rocks at the tough movers truck Jerry was driving. Not only that, but Tom called Sharon and said he was glad Paul was dead and that he and Sarah had been shot in the head and that he was going to shoot her in the head next. God damn! As if that wasn't enough, Tom later took Sharon and Jerry to court over a debt he claimed Jerry owed him. And while in the courtroom in front of everyone, Tom looked at Sharon, made his hand to look like a gun, and motioned like he shot her. In the courtroom? Yes. Just straight up like... Mm-hmm. Pair his- Fucking balls, dude. Right. Pair his anger towards Paul's family and Jerry with Teresa's greedy ass, and I see a hell of a motive for murder for Paul. And possibly Sarah. But what about Lorenzo? Well, Bobby Joe could have been mad that Lorenzo was talking about getting back with Misha. But we're gonna put a pin in that and talk more about the drug theories. Ugh. Okay. Alright. How many of you have been suspecting Lorenzo this whole time? Actually not at all. Good. I'm glad that I spun this in such a way that that wasn't a thing. Yeah, no. Actually, like, at all. I tried very, very hard to not do that because I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but there's absolutely no evidence that leads to him being anything but a victim. And we will get more into that with theories. Yeah. I know you're tired of me saying this stuff. It's just... You'll hear here in a little bit why I'm so very much with the families and keeping Lorenzo's a victim. Yeah. There's been a lot of speculation about him over the years and it's not fair to Misha, Josh and Aubrey. Mm-hmm. ⁓ she warned me. When we were, ⁓ god, what was this? Like two weeks ago at this point, we were posting flyers around for the live show and she was like, I need you to listen. I need you to listen to me. Do not. I was like, okay. Because the first time I heard this case, I did. I was thinking it was Lorenzo. I mean, so hard until we get to that point and I was like, I need to make sure you guys aren't focusing on Lorenzo and you're focusing on other things in this while I'm telling you. Well, I can tell you, I... didn't suspect him at all in this entire thing. I'm glad, yay. If he was alive and still chilling around, then I would suspect Or had his car with him? Correct. OK. Essentially, investigators assured Misha and Sharon that the case is being worked on. One investigator even said to them, it'll be solved by Christmas. Yeah, so that didn't happen. But what did happen was Teresa going on an MSNBC special where she said that the police had told her that she failed a lie detector test and that she was a suspect. ⁓ Going on to say, I quote, I'd never hurt them. I'd never hurt them. The police have tried to say that I killed them or I had them killed, but she knew who the killers were because Paul had rented parking spaces at his lot recently and had those cars towed. They sold drugs to Paul and they were the only people who could have killed him. I don't know if it was over the cars or anger over Paul trying to get over the coke, end quote. Then on the Montel Williams show, love Montel Williams. said, Teresa said she believed there was a vendetta against Paul and that the killers didn't care who was with him. ⁓ Now, I wish I had clips of Teresa on the Montel Williams show and MSNBC. Yeah. But unfortunately, These shows are not archived the way shows are now. So they don't have who the guests were and they don't really have what it was about. I did spend about, I'll admit to three hours, three hours of going through Montell Williams shows on YouTube and kind of scanning through them to see if I could. ⁓ I didn't watch the Montell Williams show a lot, but he used to have somebody called Sylvia Brown on there who was a psychic. And so I really went through those episodes a lot, but once again, these episodes don't really have a year on them, a month, any of that. And I couldn't really find it. And because of the psychic phone call, but she was on the Montevideo show later. I didn't know if that, like she was a Sylvia Brown thing. So I really wish I could find those clips. I really did try and search. I use chat GPT. I use Google AI. I use so many different ways and all of them came back with shows just weren't archived. the same way and these shows are not archived like this yet. Yeah. So we need somebody with like autism level 3000 to go and get these old shows archived from the 90s and 2000s for us so that we can use stuff. That would be great. It's not my brain that can work like that, but somebody's brain can. If you guys happen to know exactly, like it was this season, this episode. Timestamp 12 minutes or some shit like that. me something I would love to because I actually don't have any pictures of Teresa I'm gonna have nothing. I mean, we're gonna try to find so hard but the pictures I have are the only pictures I can find We'll see. We'll see what I can pull off. My FBIness. I know because investigators weren't giving out much information The media ran with what little info they were getting since it was known that none of Lorenzo's DNA was found at the scene and a A lot of fingers were being pointed at him. Pair that with what Teresa was going around and saying, there was a heavy theory that Lorenzo was somehow part of all of it and helped set Paul up. one point, Nisha wrote the media asking them to stop casting blame on her husband, telling them he is a victim and missing just like Paul and Sarah. He is an innocent party in all of this. like that part just breaks my heart is that her and those kids had to fight so hard just to... They kept saying that he's seen as a suspect, as a coworker, as a friend. He's a person. He's their husband. That's a dad. That's somebody. She was also missing. She was just pleading to the media to treat him like a human. That there was three people involved, not just two. Even if he was even just the slightest bit involved, he is still missing. Yes. As well. He is still considered a victim in this. We don't know if he was part of it or not, but even if he happened to be, he is missing. Yes, and the theory of him being involved is because he was forced to be. Okay. And we'll get into that. ⁓ Eventually the case just seemed to drop off the news cycles. There were no more searches being done and no new information was being released. ⁓ Around the third anniversary of their disappearance, ⁓ Misha took now 18 year old Josh to the police station and demanded answers, since all they had been given was bits and pieces information. Detective Long from the Thornton Police Department told Misha and Josh that Paul had been using his business as a front to sell narcotics and had gotten tangled up with the wrong people. ⁓ Not long after this meeting, Detective Long relayed this to the media. It wasn't what the families wanted to hear, but they still kept in contact with Detective Long Monthly for updates. the updates never really came. But this is the story that was ran in the media for years. This is the tunnel vision that the detectives got and they would not look outside of it. Because it's a case they didn't even want to do. And it's not like Westminster doesn't have it, Thornton has it now. Thornton took it over in the police, in that lot that night, because that's where the missing persons were. They still didn't do anything because they didn't want to. They didn't check the trucks. They didn't do anything because they didn't want to. Yes. A couple years later in 2005, Howard Morton from families of homicide victims and missing persons reached out to Sharon and told her that he wanted to put up a billboard near the Tuff Movers lot with photos of Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo. He wanted to help bring attention back to their case as as this billboard is being unveiled. Sharon is there. is there. We are there. Hell yeah. They, of course, are having a press conference unveiling this board. As she is standing up there with everybody else, she learns for the very first time that the Westminster Police Department was taking the case over from Thornton, stating that Thornton had been treating the case as a missing persons case up until now. But now it's being treated as a homicide case. Everyone was shocked because it's been six years and they're just now going to take it seriously as a homicide Everyone thought it was being investigated as a homicide since the CBI got involved. Yeah That was my understanding. Why didn't the CBI just keep it? Because nobody wanted this case Okay Sharon and Misha weren't exactly thrilled about the change of police departments. They had developed a relationship with Detective Long and they talked to him once a month. They definitely didn't get that same level of communication from Westminster that they got from Thornton. But that same year, Don Quick became the Adams County District Attorney and he tried to improve communication, bringing Sharon together with the Thornton and Westminster officers twice for strategy meetings. In a statement to the Westward, he said, quote, The problem is that right now I'm not sure what new ideas they have. One of the hardest things is getting people to understand that there is a difference between knowing and proving. If we had the evidence, we'd file the case. There's nothing I'd like better than to bring Sarah's murder to justice, even if I didn't know her. You're frustrating me. I'm frustrated. What few people knew till then was that... He did know Sarah and her mother personally. ⁓ His family has a cabin down the street from Sarah's mother's house in Granby. And he went on to say, was a cute little blonde kid. Her mom had dogs and when I took my dogs for a walk, theirs would come charging down the hill and Sarah would come and get them and take them back up the hill. She was so very sweet when she would talk to us. This case was personal to him. He knew the amount of time Michelle put into trying to find Sarah on her own. She had hired private investigators and search teams over the years. But unfortunately, she never found anything different. What? In December of 2006, almost eight years after Paul and Sarah disappeared, their death certificates were issued. Not because there was any new evidence or because they had been found, but Sharon was drowning in Paul's debts and the house and she couldn't sell the house without Paul being declared dead. To make it worse, when she finally does get to sell the house and the death certificates and she takes the life insurance policy and all that, she goes to the court and the judge... decides that Teresa gets the $100,000 life insurance policy. What the fuck? He also decides that like Sharon submitted all of her like financials for like paying the mortgage and doing this and the judge turned around and just fucked her and goes, well, you lived in that house for seven years without paying rent. So technically at like $1,000 a month this and it's like $70,000. And so we're going to deduct that from this 90. And like Sharon walks away with like 11 grand in the end and Teresa gets everything. Why the fuck did Teresa get anything? God damn it. Okay. Because Once he was declared dead and Sarah's declared dead, she, Paul Roger, technically becomes the next of Ken. ⁓ Over next 20 years, rumors and theories would fly around. And we will get to those, I know I've been promising it. God damn it, But you have to give the police credit for sticking to their drug theory tunnel vision for so long. Thankfully in 2024 investigators decided to look at the case differently. Okay. Not only that, they also decided to see if they could collect any trace DNA. They didn't have the ability to collect that back in 1999. ⁓ huh. So in February of 2025, authorities announced that they are offering a $10,000 reward for anyone who provides information leading to a break in the case because of new evidence. ⁓ They announced that they had new theories such as a financial motive. No way. Investigators say several people had financial motives to kill Paul for both business and personal reasons. While they cannot discuss the details of the investigation, I don't know why it's 27 years later, they confirm that two people are still definitely on our radar. Any guesses of who those two people are on the radio? Radar, any guesses? I have a feeling that... One of them is Teresa. And the other one is her brother. Yes. Good job. I'm a fucking genius. So fun fact. Tom is currently serving a 28 year prison sentence for attempted first degree murder for stabbing his mother five times in 2011. What the fuck? So he blamed his mom for all of his problems in his life and the fact that he didn't have anywhere to live now and so he just went to her house and grabbed a kitchen knife and started stabbing her. So at least he's locked up. Is the mom alive? Yeah. You said attempted, okay. Yeah, okay, cool. What the fuck? Yeah, so that's where Tom is. Investigators have yet to release what DNA was found or where it was collected from. they do confirm that the part of the theory that still holds up is that the three were Ambushed at the lot ⁓ and Lorenzo was not at the lot It was possibly used to help move the bodies to a second location before being killed. Uh-huh. Uh-huh So let's now talk about theories ⁓ other than the drug dealer vendetta. Okay, that is exhausting at this point Okay. Since Paul wasn't scheduled to work that day, there was suspicion that it was supposed to be Jerry. Mm-hmm. But no other threats ever came to Jerry, other than Tom yelling, you're next, you're next. Yeah. I don't know why, but I see the little coconut people from Moana. Rich thought that there was a possibility that the truck that was seen coming and going that night wasn't Paul's. It was actually his cousin Himes moving truck that looked the exact same, but his truck was bigger. In fact, his truck was big enough that you could have actually fit a vehicle in the back. ⁓ wow. He could have used it to move the cars and the bodies, which would mean that it wouldn't have taken maybe two people. He could have done that pretty easily on his own with the help of Lorenzo, especially if he could have put a car in the back. And you said there was a moving ramp missing as well? From the big truck that they'd used. Those are kind of smaller ramps though. Not these ones. Those are the long ones that break into two pieces. Got it. And I did ask my husband about this. Those ramps are about 150 pounds. Okay. Okay. I believe Lorenzo was like 160 pounds or 180 pounds and Paul's like 150, 160. Sarah was 80 pounds. So you put it together, you're going to need two people. Yeah. At least. At least. The only who knew Paul was working that day were Lorenzo, Jerry, Sharon, and Teresa. Okay. We know that the three were ambushed in the lot if they got back and it would have taken at least two people to move the cars and the bodies. Okay. Leading them to the main theory floating around that Teresa had her brother kill Paul so that she and Paul Roger would get everything. But how does Sarah and Lorenzo fit into that? Did Teresa also want Sarah dead? What about Lorenzo? This is where the armchair detectives come running with Lorenzo. I have a theory. I have a spot for you. Calm down. We're almost there. I'm waiting. ⁓ This where the armchair detectives come ⁓ with Lorenzo being involved because Teresa's disability, she wouldn't have been able to help Tom. I fucking forgot about that. But once again, he was not involved unless it was by to help him move the bodies, to help move the bodies, ⁓ which makes sense because of Teresa's disability. So. Before I give you my theory of what I think happened that night, because I have been balls deep in this case for weeks. No data. And I very excitedly called my sister ⁓ last week and told her that I figured it out. Yeah. Yeah, I have a damn good theory. I want, Sam, I want your theory of what happened. Like who was responsible with motive and how it all went down. Some things to remember. A woman was heard screaming. The big truck left around 830, returned around midnight. Teresa told Jerry she was at the lot that night and a moving ramp is missing. Just to sprinkle some things in there. Okay. Okay. Okay. I have a couple of working theories in my brain, but the one that I'm clinging to the most is brother. The brother, like, okay, I think Teresa and Bobby Joe, because they both are now being scorned, quote unquote, by these, sorry, by these two men who happen to be together working that same day together. Bobby Joe is scorned because he wants go back to his... to ⁓ ⁓ And Teresa and him all day the previous day. And I guarantee there was tension leading up to that fight as well. She was like, I'm about to lose everything. That is a motive right there. Bobby Jones is a motive. He can't leave me if I can't have a no one can situation. ⁓ Personally, I think those are the motives. So I think if... Mmm, so I think he Probably showed up. I have a feeling I wonder if Bobby Joe was there Maybe not Teresa, but Bobby Joe I Mean Teresa said she was there That's true. She did I forgot about that Okay, well Maybe they all of them were there. Okay for help Ultimately, and I wonder if they showed up just to try to scare them and That's yes. I will agree with that one like One thing led to another and Paul ended up getting shot And who fucking knows like we don't know if they knew Sarah was there or not, yeah So Sarah was very much just an innocent bystander in this. And I wonder if maybe when she came out and got shot, that's when one of the ladies screamed like, what are you doing? ⁓ my God. I can't believe you did that. Blah, blah, blah. And they maybe had Lorenzo still alive. Like you're helping me move this and cover this up. Move them, move the cars, move all this stuff. And then this side, he knows too much, take him out. Yeah. And truce to keep that shit wrapped up. I mean, it's three siblings. That's what I'm saying. I think it was a family project for them. That's a terrible way to put that, Samantha. God damn. But I mean, yeah. I mean, yes. That's just a working, one of the working theories. I don't think there's any drug dealers involved, personally. I don't think that's fucking real. I think this was a story that they made up because she probably knew Paul's past. Yes, and I don't know if Lorenzo also had a past or not. I'm like that. Okay. He very much kept to himself. He was very okay, know, so I wonder if she used that knowing his past to try to get some police. Yep, and got that rolling in their head. That's where I stand. Are you ready for mine? I'm so ready. So I agree with you that the motive for this is Teresa. Okay. Teresa, Tom, and Bobby Joe all have a motive. Mm-hmm. Lorenzo's going back to about Tommy's motive too. Tom is scorned he was fired. Teresa wants everything. All three of them are scorned women. I believe that Teresa asked Tom to scare or harm Paul. don't know which one. Teresa was probably thinking that Paul would drop Sarah off before coming back to the lot. Mm-hmm. Teresa and Tom sat in wait. When the three of them got back to the lot, Lorenzo had to get out to open the gate. I believe that Sarah hopped out the truck at that moment to either help Lorenzo with the gate or run inside and make that phone call. As Paul pulled the truck in and was backing it in like he normally does, I believe Tom came out of somewhere and shot Paul, causing Paul. to put his foot on the gas harder. And at that same time, I believe Sarah was coming out of the office. And when Paul hit the gas, he ran over Sarah, causing Teresa to scream. Lorenzo then comes back from locking the gate to witness what just happened. We now have two bodies and someone still alive. Teresa cannot help. So Tom turns the gun on Lorenzo and tells Lorenzo to load the bodies into the back of the truck. Teresa goes and moves Lorenzo's car not far away. Tom picks her up, brings her back to the truck, brings her back to the lot. She moves Paul's car. Tom goes and picks Teresa up in the moving van or Paul's car actually met her at the lake. They go ahead and with Lorenzo's help, they drive out to a lake area. Once they are out there, Tom takes the moving ramp out and puts Paul and Sarah's bodies on it. When he's near the water wherever he wants to, because they believe the moving ramp was used to sink the bodies. That makes sense. I guarantee they were wrapped in blankets too. Once he has everyone tied on there, he shoots Lorenzo near the ramp. It's not hard for him to actually put Lorenzo on that ramp and then slide it into the water now, if Lorenzo's gotten him that far. Once all of this is done... They come back to the lot. Bobby Joe has possibly met them there by now. The three of them then proceed to clean the cars, drop the cars off, clean the inside of the truck, motor oil, all over the... a new lock on the gate before returning to their house. ⁓ It accounts for every single piece Because I cannot believe in I I cannot bring myself to think that Tom would have executed Sarah Yeah, I cannot bring myself to think and because Sarah's hair was found in the fender of the truck And Paul's scalp was found there and the inside of the cab lit up with luminal So if he was backing that truck up and you saw those trucks were parked in the three's He's backing that truck up and Tom was waiting and shot him and it went through the window he probably had the windows down, you know? So shot it through and then his foot hit the gas and that. And so when they brought that truck back in, Tom didn't want to take the time to back it in or do whatever. So he just pulled it in and got out of there because at this point we've been doing this for hours. What do you think about that theory? I think you're on to something home slice because I forgot half of those details too. God damn. It, it, everything is tied up. Can we send this to the cops? I wouldn't be surprised if they've already gotten there, but they can't release that. Maybe. So ambush is the best way because It's one of those things that was supposed to happen one way and then the dominoes just fell and created this other scene. Yeah. And yes, you can get to that conclusion when you're looking at all the evidence, but like there's certain details in there that only those people there would know. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. What gets like I'm a little confused how how many times did he fire if there's gunshots in the one? Like was it the big moving truck that gunshots were Yeah, so like I feel like Paul was in the cat, like Paul's in the truck, Lorenzo's out of it, the windows are down, Tom shoots through it, but he shoots through it, so those other bullets hit the truck that's not working, because he's in the process of backing it up, but once Paul's dead, his foot goes on the gas and runs Sarah over. Yeah. Teresa screams. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of fucking sense. We want to hear your theories about this. So please, leave them in the comments, the reviews, on our Facebook page. I want to hear your theories. I do. Yeah. But now, I want to talk about our victims a little bit. Please. Lorenzo chivers was a great father who loved spending time with his kids. He kept to himself and just enjoyed life. In an interview, Misha said that Lorenzo was the guy she'd fallen in love with when she was just a kid. They were flat broke, but they always found the two bucks to go dancing at the Indian Center on Friday and Saturday nights. Lorenzo in his braids and Stacey Adams shoes, and Misha her big hair and six inch stilettos. ⁓ was a dad who told his kids he loved them every day before he left at night in the morning. He was the child of a single mother who had an eighth grade education. And she never gave up looking for her son. She died in 2005, never knowing what happened to him. Sarah is described as friendly, outgoing, caring, talkative girl. She enjoyed dancing and singing. She loved school so much. And animals and babies, movies. She loved a good movie night. Hell yeah. And you can't forget... Her love for beanie babies. She was like the ultimate 90s girlie and I feel like we would have been like best friends with her. I bet you she would have played Spice Girls with us on the playground. 100%. I had so, wait, which Spice Girl do you think she would have been? I think she would have been like, I think she either would have been Baby Spice or Sporty Spice. I feel like she would have been Baby Spice. Because of the blonde hair. But this next part will give you the Sporty Spice part. ⁓ I love a Sporty Girl. She was a really good swimmer. She loved swimming. Well, obviously every Wednesday she was at a pool with her dad in hotel. She loved the outdoors. She was your total Colorado kid. Paul and Sarah loved to go hiking, skiing, camping. If it was outside, it was in it and it was an adventure. You can bet they were doing it. Biking, all of it. And she also, she had this really unique experience of spending her time in the city and in the mountains. She got that quiet escape during the week and she got the fun hustle and bustle of the city with her dad on the weekends. Another thing was that every Saturday Sarah and Sharon would have a shopping trip amazing. I love it They would go they would do a little bunch sometimes they would go in a little shopping just it was a few hours of just them time together and like my daughter Spends a lot of time with my mother-in-law and that like it is so amazing to watch that Grandparent-child bond. Yeah, somebody else love your kid as much as you love your kid is pretty cool. Mm-hmm Paul's life after Sarah was born was completely dedicated to Sarah. Everything he did was for her. Paul was, it was said that Paul had over 70 pictures of Sarah in his house. ⁓ Like he was always thinking about their next adventure. He just, he loved being a dad and he loved Sarah. It was his whole world was that girl. Hell yeah. As it should be. Paul was a unique guy with a unique style. He loved a good thrift store because he loved to wear the like name brand high-end like fashion and stuff, but he wasn't paying full price for that. He was a small business owner after all. would love out town cheapskate. He would. I mean, we're talking fedoras and vests and the shoes. And I mean, he was about it. ⁓ he would have loved the song from Macklemore. Do you know I'm talking Thrift Shop? Yeah. would have. Unfortunately, Sharon passed away in 2013 without ever knowing what happened to Paul. Since this case is still active and open, justice is loading. Yes, it is. And I will have the information on how to help with this case in a second. But before I do that, I would like to read a statement recently released from Michelle, Sarah's mom. ⁓ recently? Yes. OK. This released in February of ⁓ when they brought out the $10,000 reward and the updates about the DNA and the new billboard and stuff, Yep, and the new theory they were going down. Okay. Quote, we have been searching for our dear Sarah, my only child, for 26 years now. Her loss has not gotten any easier. Reliving the events every year is a heartbreaking way to remember her. Some people say she was at the wrong place at the wrong time. She is completely innocent. She was only nine and a half years old at the time. Why would anyone want to kill her in cold blood? She was a child. She obviously was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And besides some blood evidence, she has never been found. What does that do to a mother? knowing that she does not know where her child is and may never know. There's a small amount of hope left that I may one day find out what happened to my daughter, Sarah. But if society has shown me anything, it is that human life is not sacred and everyone lies. I wish it weren't the case today. I reach out with a plea. Please come forward and say what you know about what happened. Sarah deserves to be found. No child should be left out alone and unfound. Anyone with information about what happened to Sarah, Paul, and Lorenzo is urged to contact the Westminster Police Department at 303-658-4360. ⁓ To remain anonymous, can contact the Metro Denver Crime Stoppers online or by calling 720-913-7867. Tipsters are eligible for a $10,000 reward. Like I said in the beginning of this, this is a very solvable case. Yes, it This case should have been solved in 99 or 2000. That shit could have been solved in the first couple of weeks that they refused to do anything. Yes, Sarah is actually still listed in the national missing and unidentified person system period. She is in NamUs So I will have all this information for you guys on our Facebook It's going to be linked in the episode below if anything in this episode made you go ⁓ my god, or you think of anything? If you don't want to report it to Crime Stoppers, if you don't want to call the police message us We'll do that shit for you. We will be the in-between We will keep you protected. but. Michelle deserves to know what happened to her daughter. Absolutely, she deserves to bring her home. Lorenzo's kids deserve to know where their father is. Yep. I'm I have I know you don't touch on it, but I'm very curious. What's going on with Paul Paul Roger? have no idea I didn't even try to look for him because he could have changed his name by now Yeah, he could be going by something different. He go by Roger. He go by Paul ⁓ I haven't been able to find me and I tried every which way to find young people in this and to find updates But because nobody has ever actually person of interest or a suspect and this happened so long ago before social media There's just not a good track of all that. Yeah. That's understandable. Maybe he is just trying to live. Yeah. And that was the other thing is that Paul Roger is honestly the only next to Sarah. I mean, he's the only living innocent person in this. He was three months old when this happened. I mean, he lost his dad. Well, yeah, yeah, he lost his dad. ⁓ it's just. And who knows what he's been told over the years. Absolutely. Who knows what info he has. Because there is no case to read. There is no affidavits. There is no interview transcripts. A lot of my information came from Trace Evidence podcast. The Trail Went Cold, which y'all know is one of my favorite ones. And the Westward website newspaper, they have done extensive investigating and research and talking to people. That's where all my quotes came from in here. They don't even have a picture of Teresa. or any of these people. I only have this picture of Tom because, well, he got arrested. Yeah, it is that this is a very solvable cold case. I want to know why they're not pressing more. I'm wondering if they are like, the only DNA they would have is Tom. So I'm wondering if we're trying to figure out how to get DNA from Bobby Joe or Teresa. I'm wondering if the Tracey and a that they have found they're having a shoe link because remember what that newer detective said It's one thing to know but it's another thing to be able to prove it and get an arrest warrant So I'm the police have a very good idea and it's following along our thought process of Teresa and Tom They just can't prove it. Yeah, and they don't have any bodies. So I'm just hoping that somebody somewhere knows something I mean, it's been 27 years. There's no way that Tom has kept his mouth quiet in prison And there's no way Teresa and Bobby Joe have not said anything about this. And if they have, dear God, we... I might just give an award for the best sibling pinky promise ever. Secret. Because... But I truly believe that this, the key to the secret lies in that family. Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. I... The other thing I'm a little confused about is there was a report of a woman's scream. But there was no reports of gunshots. Yes. We are in a metro area of Denver in 1990. We have moving trucks, we have other vehicles, we have a 92 Chevelle. Let's talk about backfiring cars. Valid. And like slamming doors closed, things like The moving trucks and stuff like that. I feel like loud noises of that wouldn't, but a woman screaming at that time of night. That's fair. And what a lot of people get caught up on is that it's a woman screaming. I was like, listen, have you ever seen a man really scared? For all we know that I watched Supernatural for all we know that was Lorenzo scream when Sarah got hit that was Lorenzo scream when he heard the gunshot Yeah some people say that Lorenzo had a cell phone and that's how ⁓ That's how Sarah made the call But if Lorenzo had a cell phone on him wouldn't he have just called 911 whenever all this started going down you would think so so that's why I'm very if you unless the phone was in the truck that or Sarah used the cell phone to make the call Like she had gone in the aisle or she was standing I don't know and she had the phone and that's why and Lorenzo was locking up or whatever he was doing. Unlocking. Yeah, so it's just the details of in there not knowing. Yeah, it's a very do you see the spiral I've been in now? Yeah. Yeah, I see. I feel it. And this is why I needed you to think on this before we got to the live so that you can like. Yeah, you know. But yeah, that's. That's it. We're in season three now, Yeah, we are. You're welcome. All right. Well, on that note. On that note, ⁓ thank you guys again so much for being here with us over the last couple of years moving into our third season. We genuinely cannot thank you enough. We can't at all. It's been this has been a crazy insane ride. We are loving it. We cannot believe that this is the episode we did for our third live show. After we spent an entire season telling you guys we would never do a live show. Here we are. Yeah. So we, we believed in ourselves. We had a little bit of inside talks with ourselves of, you need to chill the fuck out in person. Yeah. So, um, we are so excited for you guys to be here with us on this journey. We have a lot of really cool things coming this season that we haven't done before. So we can't wait for you guys to experience all that. Yep. Yep. Yep. But thank you. you. Thank you. Thank you so again, you guys. ⁓ Everyone who was at the live, any of our live shows, everyone who's been here since day one, who's merch, who has sent in a case, commented, shared us, ⁓ all of it. appreciate you guys from the bottom of our hearts. ⁓ My gosh, I'm so, so sorry. The girl who always comments on our TikTok that says besties. Yeah, I love her. Jenny. Yes. I love you so much. Love you, Jenny. We love you. But also lock your door, Jenny. Dear God, I saw that. We We saw that. I saw that comment. Go lock your door. Hello. Also, if you guys see people being mean to us in the comments on TikToks and YouTube, feel free to just go and handle it. Feel free. Also, we can't do it in the way that we want to. So when you see people being mean, I mean, we'll allow it. The thing is, though, like I have really thick skin. Be as mean as you fucking want. You're also promoting us. Thank you. Thanks, baby. All right. I felt like Cardi B in that moment. Like shout out to all my haters too. Anyway, thank you guys so, much again. We will catch you guys next week for an all new episode. Remember to bring your tissues. And lock your damn doors. And stop leaving your friends at a bar. Alright. We love you guys. We'll catch you next week. Okay. Love you. Bye.