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Shannon Kelly-White on writing fearlessly and owning your voice · The Book Deal

0:09
Speaker 2: The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
0:15
Speaker 3: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
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Speaker 4: So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered.
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Speaker 4: I'm Tina Strachan.
0:30
Speaker 2: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
0:32
Speaker 3: And I'm Natasha Rai.
0:34
Speaker 4: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.
0:37
Speaker 5: One deal at a time.
0:43
Speaker 5: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
0:56
Speaker 7: In this episode, I chat with Shannon Kelly White, an absolute superstar and author of Billy King, a bold, rollicking feminist novel set in the bush in colonial Australia.
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Speaker 7: Shannon's own path to fiction is anything but conventional.
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Speaker 7: She's gone from nurse to cult favorite food creator behind Shannon's Kitchen, to award-winning cookbook author, and now a novelist.
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Speaker 7: In this episode, we chat about being true to your own voice and own style, writing setting and character, mentorships, and wearing your heart on your sleeve.
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Speaker 7: I hope you enjoy.
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Madeleine Cleary: Shannon Kelly White, welcome to The Book Deal Podcast
1:29
video1177567933: Thank you so much.
1:30
video1177567933: I'm so chuffed to be
1:31
Shannon Kelly-White: here
1:32
Madeleine Cleary: Thanks for joining us.
1:33
Madeleine Cleary: Now, firstly, a massive congratulations on your gutsy and glorious debut novel, Billie King.
1:39
Madeleine Cleary: Um, can you tell us a little bit about your novel?
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video1177567933: Yeah, absolutely.
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video1177567933: Billie King is very wild-hearted story about three women in the Australian high
1:48
Shannon Kelly-White: Country
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video1177567933: 100 years ago.
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video1177567933: Uh, so these three women are, one, a lady bushranger wanted for murder, another is a struggling mother with a past, and the third is Billie King herself, who a
2:00
Shannon Kelly-White: who is a ballsy 12-year-old girl
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video1177567933: with an entire town breathing down her neck.
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Madeleine Cleary: Brilliant.
2:08
Madeleine Cleary: Elevator pitch, you've got that nailed.
2:10
Madeleine Cleary: You've probably done that a few times
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video1177567933: in the last couple of
2:13
Shannon Kelly-White: can't describe
2:13
video1177567933: my book.
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video1177567933: If someone tells me to s- to tell, you know, how great another
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Shannon Kelly-White: is
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video1177567933: and what's it all about, I'm off and running, but when it's my own, like, oh, God, you feel like a real tosser.
2:23
Madeleine Cleary: especially because you s- you mentioned before we hit record that you're also, you know, drafting your second book.
2:28
Madeleine Cleary: And it's hard, isn't it, sometimes?
2:29
Madeleine Cleary: You've gotta think about both.
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Madeleine Cleary: I had this situation where I was in a, um I was doing a sort of event for the Butterfly Women, and they asked me to tell me what, tell, you know, describe what it's about.
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Madeleine Cleary: I absolutely froze on stage.
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Madeleine Cleary: I
2:41
video1177567933: I
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Madeleine Cleary: like,"Well, what's my book about again?" I couldn't remember.
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Shannon Kelly-White: We're
2:43
video1177567933: ready to launch into the
2:45
Shannon Kelly-White: of book
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video1177567933: two?
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Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
2:46
Madeleine Cleary: Yes, they asked me for that, and I could give that pitch perfectly.
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video1177567933: It is hard, though, because when you're in a book like, like mine and like yours, it's a very rich world.
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video1177567933: Yeah.
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video1177567933: And you kind of have to immerse yourself in it fully.
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video1177567933: So when you've been writing it and you get
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Shannon Kelly-White: back
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video1177567933: into the real world, it's quite jarring.
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video1177567933: So then when you're- Yes working on, on, you know, perhaps book one, you know, doing media for it, and then you're also working on book two, which
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Shannon Kelly-White: is
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video1177567933: completely different world, and then you've got the actual real world where people wanna talk to you and you have to pay bills and buy groceries.
3:20
video1177567933: Yeah.
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video1177567933: It's kind of hard kinda trying to jump from the three worlds.
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video1177567933: I find
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Shannon Kelly-White: it real...
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Shannon Kelly-White: Like, my head spins sometimes.
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video1177567933: I completely get why you would have frozen on stage.
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video1177567933: Yeah.
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video1177567933: That will be definitely me
3:29
Shannon Kelly-White: at
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video1177567933: stage, probably during this podcast.
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Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I loved it.
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Madeleine Cleary: I actually just found it so funny
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video1177567933: well.
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video1177567933: Like, you
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Madeleine Cleary: just,
3:36
video1177567933: just- you know, it doesn't
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Madeleine Cleary: matter what, how many times you say it, you can still forget what your novel's about.
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Madeleine Cleary: Okay, you've got a really interesting origin story and inspiration, I think, behind this book.
3:45
Madeleine Cleary: I did hear you speak about it, and I thought it was ab- so beautiful.
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Madeleine Cleary: Can you tell us about the inspiration?
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Madeleine Cleary: Where did you first come with the idea Billie King?
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Shannon Kelly-White: I've got two answers
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video1177567933: this, and one's really classy and one's the truth.
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video1177567933: So are
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Shannon Kelly-White: you wanting
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video1177567933: truth?
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Madeleine Cleary: Give us the
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Shannon Kelly-White: Yeah.
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video1177567933: Okay.
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video1177567933: So I'd actually finished another
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Shannon Kelly-White: book.
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Shannon Kelly-White: So I'd written a full manuscript, start
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video1177567933: finish, polished it, and then I realized it wasn't
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Shannon Kelly-White: right.
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Shannon Kelly-White: Like, it was, it was entertaining, but it was lacking
4:15
video1177567933: magic.
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video1177567933: It just, it wasn't the best that I could do, but I was really devastated because I spent two years on this book.
4:21
video1177567933: Wow.
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video1177567933: And I did believe
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Shannon Kelly-White: while I was writing
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video1177567933: that it was gonna go somewhere.
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video1177567933: And so when I finished
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Shannon Kelly-White: it and it wasn't up to scratch, I
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video1177567933: pretty devo, and it happened just before Christmas.
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video1177567933: So anyway,
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Shannon Kelly-White: then I
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video1177567933: like,"All right, I'll take a couple of weeks off." And then my husband and I were sitting around
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Shannon Kelly-White: in our togs one afternoon, and I was talking about, you know, the fact
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video1177567933: the book was no
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Shannon Kelly-White: good and it wasn't gonna go anywhere, and what the hell
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video1177567933: I gonna write next?
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video1177567933: And my partner said,"Don't people say
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Shannon Kelly-White: that you should write what you know?
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Shannon Kelly-White: Like, what do you know?"
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video1177567933: I was like,"Oh, bloody nothing." Like, all I know about nursing, and then I
4:55
Shannon Kelly-White: I was like,
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video1177567933: I know about horses.
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video1177567933: I know
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Shannon Kelly-White: about the bush.
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Shannon Kelly-White: I know what it's like to get knocked down
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video1177567933: get back up again.
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video1177567933: I know what it's like to be a
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Shannon Kelly-White: a bit of a rebel."
5:05
video1177567933: And then he sort of sat back, and we were having a
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Shannon Kelly-White: drink and, like, we weren't even drinking something
5:09
video1177567933: cool.
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video1177567933: We weren't drinking champagne
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Shannon Kelly-White: or whiskey.
5:11
Shannon Kelly-White: We were drinking
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video1177567933: pineapple vodka Cruisers.
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video1177567933: Like the skankiest drinks
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Shannon Kelly-White: of all time.
5:17
Shannon Kelly-White: So he had a little sip, and then he said,
5:19
video1177567933: "Why don't you write about
5:20
Shannon Kelly-White: a
5:20
video1177567933: bushranger?" Mm.
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Shannon Kelly-White: bushranger?" I'm like,
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video1177567933: gross.
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video1177567933: I don't wanna write about
5:23
Shannon Kelly-White: a man." And he said,"No, a lady bushranger."
5:27
video1177567933: And then the thought
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Shannon Kelly-White: of that
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video1177567933: so exciting to me, but until that moment I
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Shannon Kelly-White: hadn't known that women bushrangers
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video1177567933: had existed in Australia.
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Shannon Kelly-White: So I quickly looked
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video1177567933: up, and they did, and I was just so excited and inspired.
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video1177567933: thought,"Damn it, I've gotta write about a lady bushranger." I love that.
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video1177567933: So, and I started it...
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video1177567933: The
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Shannon Kelly-White: kids went back
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video1177567933: school.
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video1177567933: I started the day they went back to school, and I was like unstoppable.
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Shannon Kelly-White: I couldn't get enough of it
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video1177567933: Did the
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Madeleine Cleary: magic feel, did it feel a bit more magical than your first manuscript when you had that idea?
6:02
Shannon Kelly-White: It felt,
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video1177567933: it did.
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video1177567933: It really did, and it, but the magic
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Shannon Kelly-White: arrived when Billie King
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video1177567933: arrived.
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video1177567933: Mm.
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video1177567933: Like character of Billie,'cause
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Shannon Kelly-White: sort of
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video1177567933: came
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Shannon Kelly-White: to me almost fully
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video1177567933: It was like she'd, she'd been living inside me and was just waiting for
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Shannon Kelly-White: her chance to break free.
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Shannon Kelly-White: So
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video1177567933: she really excited me, and
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Shannon Kelly-White: she revved
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video1177567933: me up because it was s- I just kept
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Shannon Kelly-White: getting put
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video1177567933: back into the mind of a child, like
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Shannon Kelly-White: a 12-year-old.
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Shannon Kelly-White: So I was going back to my own childhood, my own memories, and reconnecting with that, that spirit that children have.
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Shannon Kelly-White: I think all children
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video1177567933: are gifted with a spirit at birth, and then- Mm
6:42
Shannon Kelly-White: you know, life
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video1177567933: of flogs it out of a lot of us i- over time.
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video1177567933: So
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Shannon Kelly-White: returning to that spirit in me
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video1177567933: through Billie was incredible.
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video1177567933: was my favorite part of writing, writing the book,
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Shannon Kelly-White: I think
6:54
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
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Madeleine Cleary: I love that'cause I, I
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video1177567933: I've got...
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video1177567933: I
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Madeleine Cleary: don't have kids, but I've got nieces who I'm
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video1177567933: really
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Madeleine Cleary: close to, and they're a, a lot younger
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video1177567933: than,
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Madeleine Cleary: than Billie.
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Madeleine Cleary: But what I love about them is they're so earnest
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video1177567933: they're so funny.
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video1177567933: Oh.
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video1177567933: And I got that- How wonderful when I read
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Madeleine Cleary: Billie's from, from Billie's perspective, the way she looks at the world.
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Madeleine Cleary: It is so earnest and so hilarious.
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Shannon Kelly-White: It is, they're just
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video1177567933: wholesome.
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video1177567933: Like- They are I think the things
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Shannon Kelly-White: that drive children are really pure because they're driven, I think, mostly by love, and they're driven by curiosity,
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video1177567933: and they're always pursuing joy.
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video1177567933: Mm-hmm.
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Shannon Kelly-White: And I
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video1177567933: think that adults
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Shannon Kelly-White: can sometimes look down on children
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video1177567933: a- and think that they're naive, but how beautiful to be driven by those things compared to what often drives adults, which,
7:38
Shannon Kelly-White: you know,
7:38
video1177567933: is
7:38
Shannon Kelly-White: a, a lot more
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video1177567933: crusty, you know- That's right things like
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Madeleine Cleary: right
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Shannon Kelly-White: um, money.
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video1177567933: It's, it's, it's...
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video1177567933: I think children are really wise.
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Madeleine Cleary: I agree.
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Madeleine Cleary: And if they wanna wear, like this
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video1177567933: my
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Madeleine Cleary: six-year-old niece, if she wants to wear her sparkly red shoes on a hike or, you know, her, um, bluey leggings with a unicorn jumper, she doesn't care what other people are thinking.
8:00
Madeleine Cleary: She's gonna wear whatever she wants.
8:02
Madeleine Cleary: She's gonna do what she wants
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video1177567933: Like, we should all be free to decide who we are, shouldn't
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Shannon Kelly-White: we?
8:07
Shannon Kelly-White: And that's a really big theme
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video1177567933: in Billie King, is that, you know- Yes women and children should have the
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Shannon Kelly-White: right to choose who they are and what they deserve
8:16
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
8:16
Madeleine Cleary: Yes, exactly.
8:17
Madeleine Cleary: Now, I wanna go back a bit.
8:19
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so when you said, mentioned that you had another manuscript and it didn't feel right, did you ever try and seek publication for that, that
8:27
Shannon Kelly-White: I had
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video1177567933: done a course with Curtis Brown Creative, um, which is based in the UK.
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video1177567933: It was
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Shannon Kelly-White: an online
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video1177567933: so it was a write your novel course.
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Shannon Kelly-White: Absolutely fantastic
8:37
video1177567933: any writers out there, by the way,
8:39
Shannon Kelly-White: because it
8:40
video1177567933: you to write,
8:41
Shannon Kelly-White: and it forces you to give critiques
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video1177567933: feedback to fellow students
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Shannon Kelly-White: and also receive them.
8:47
Shannon Kelly-White: So you really learn a lot.
8:49
Shannon Kelly-White: But as part of the course, you are allowed to submit
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video1177567933: e- to agents at Curtis Brown.
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video1177567933: So I did submit
8:58
Shannon Kelly-White: it
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video1177567933: one agent, and she said, you know, that it was very entertaining but that it wasn't quite right
9:05
Shannon Kelly-White: It was too Australian for
9:06
video1177567933: her, is what she
9:07
Shannon Kelly-White: said, which
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video1177567933: bloody was.
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video1177567933: Australian.
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video1177567933: But I mean, obviously wrote Billie King, I not that advice on board because I...
9:14
video1177567933: it is as Aussie as you could bloody get.
9:16
video1177567933: Um,
9:16
Shannon Kelly-White: Um,
9:17
video1177567933: so
9:18
Shannon Kelly-White: but I kind of knew
9:19
video1177567933: before I got
9:20
Shannon Kelly-White: that no, so it was only one agent that I submitted to, but
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video1177567933: before I got that no- Or after I'd submitted it actually, I felt,
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Shannon Kelly-White: I felt that it wasn't right.
9:30
video1177567933: Mm So when I got the no I wasn't surprised,
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Shannon Kelly-White: and I thought,"You know what?
9:35
Shannon Kelly-White: She's right."
9:36
video1177567933: It's, and- What's
9:37
Madeleine Cleary: wrong?
9:37
Madeleine Cleary: Do you think you'd pull it out, pull it back out?
9:39
Madeleine Cleary: I mean, as I said, you've got a whole manuscript now in the drawer
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video1177567933: No,
9:42
Shannon Kelly-White: No, I
9:43
video1177567933: but I do love the book because it
9:46
Shannon Kelly-White: gave me Billie King.
9:48
video1177567933: it taught...
9:48
video1177567933: I think, now I think of it as my uni degree,
9:51
Shannon Kelly-White: so it wasn't wasted
9:52
video1177567933: Those
9:52
Shannon Kelly-White: two years weren't wasted.
9:53
Shannon Kelly-White: That
9:54
video1177567933: me a lot about
9:55
Shannon Kelly-White: the craft, and it also
9:57
video1177567933: let me, you know, get a run on the board, and to realize the thing that was holding me back when I
10:02
Shannon Kelly-White: was writing, I think was fear,
10:04
video1177567933: and I wasn't- I
10:06
Shannon Kelly-White: wasn't
10:07
video1177567933: my own voice.
10:07
video1177567933: I think
10:07
Shannon Kelly-White: I was trying to sound like someone else, like Sally Hepworth or
10:11
video1177567933: someone- Right, yeah
10:12
Shannon Kelly-White: someone amazing like that, and who can replicate
10:15
video1177567933: Freaking no one.
10:16
video1177567933: Who was I to try and sound like
10:17
Shannon Kelly-White: Sally?
10:17
Shannon Kelly-White: So I can only sound like me, and so I had to trust that
10:22
video1177567933: I was allowed to have a voice, that I
10:25
Shannon Kelly-White: I was allowed to, to write and
10:27
video1177567933: like me.
10:27
video1177567933: And when I did, even though it's not gonna be for everyone, 100%, some people will
10:31
Shannon Kelly-White: hate Billie King, but
10:34
video1177567933: is an, is a, it's a very honest made up story, if that makes sense.
10:38
Shannon Kelly-White: There's my, my, my heart
10:40
video1177567933: soul
10:40
Shannon Kelly-White: is throughout that book.
10:41
Shannon Kelly-White: I didn't hold
10:42
video1177567933: at
10:43
Shannon Kelly-White: all.
10:43
Shannon Kelly-White: I was, I
10:44
video1177567933: just going way too fast and way
10:46
Shannon Kelly-White: too hard to, to censor myself
10:48
video1177567933: all, which I, I think is, in the end, worked out really well.
10:52
Madeleine Cleary: I'm so interested then, had you always wanted to be a writer?
10:56
Madeleine Cleary: Because you'd already established
10:58
video1177567933: several
10:58
Madeleine Cleary: different careers So you started as a nurse.
11:01
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you, you've got your following with Shannon's Kitchen, you're a cookbook author.
11:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so what, gave you permission to go and do the course and become a novelist?
11:10
Shannon Kelly-White: Well, I had always, always loved reading, as
11:13
video1177567933: I think pretty much every writer does, and if they don't, they bloody should.
11:17
video1177567933: Um, but I'd
11:18
Shannon Kelly-White: never
11:19
video1177567933: Being, grow- growing up
11:20
Shannon Kelly-White: in the country, being an author, being a writer wasn't really a job that was ever presented
11:26
video1177567933: me as a possibility, so it
11:27
Shannon Kelly-White: never occurred to
11:28
video1177567933: that I could be
11:29
Shannon Kelly-White: a writer.
11:30
video1177567933: Um, but when I was a nurse, oh my God, you should have seen my notes.
11:33
video1177567933: They were amazing.
11:35
Shannon Kelly-White: Um,
11:35
video1177567933: but it was when, whilst I was on maternity leave from nursing, I started the food blog, Shannon's Kitchen, which was utterly ridiculous.
11:41
video1177567933: It's so
11:41
Shannon Kelly-White: utterly ridiculous.
11:42
Shannon Kelly-White: It's so unhinged.
11:43
video1177567933: Like, the
11:44
Shannon Kelly-White: recipes are rated by how
11:46
video1177567933: your nipples get, for example.
11:48
video1177567933: It is not a
11:49
Shannon Kelly-White: classy, it's not a classy thing at all.
11:51
video1177567933: But the best part of doing it was writing,
11:55
Shannon Kelly-White: writing
11:55
video1177567933: introductions.
11:56
video1177567933: They were so silly
11:57
Shannon Kelly-White: and ridiculous, really playful.
11:59
Shannon Kelly-White: Um,
12:00
video1177567933: but the joy that writing those introductions, it sh- I
12:03
Shannon Kelly-White: was like,
12:03
video1177567933: "Oh my gosh, I love this so much." And
12:05
Shannon Kelly-White: I was doing it just for fun.
12:07
Shannon Kelly-White: I was But then it turned into
12:09
video1177567933: which I was very lucky, very lucky
12:11
Shannon Kelly-White: to I had four nonfiction books, a couple of
12:14
video1177567933: cookbooks, and like a,
12:16
Shannon Kelly-White: a spoof parenting book.
12:18
video1177567933: and
12:19
Shannon Kelly-White: those,
12:20
video1177567933: uh, three of them were self-published and I sold them directly to my audience through the blog,
12:26
Shannon Kelly-White: which meant
12:27
video1177567933: I was able to stay at home while my kids were little.
12:29
video1177567933: Mm-hmm.
12:29
video1177567933: They didn't have to go to daycare.
12:31
video1177567933: I had
12:31
Shannon Kelly-White: an income, and it was fantastic.
12:34
Shannon Kelly-White: But after a while, I was, I realized that the
12:38
video1177567933: of it that
12:38
Shannon Kelly-White: I
12:38
video1177567933: loving the
12:39
Shannon Kelly-White: most was,
12:40
video1177567933: was the writing, not
12:42
Shannon Kelly-White: the cooking, um, and certainly not the sending out of books So
12:48
video1177567933: I realized that's, that was my dream.
12:51
video1177567933: Mm.
12:51
video1177567933: Um, and so I did a couple of short courses and they were fantastic as well.
12:56
video1177567933: But it wasn't until I became unwell, I was quite unwell for a couple of years, that I sort
13:00
Shannon Kelly-White: of realized, oh,
13:01
video1177567933: life's
13:02
Shannon Kelly-White: pretty short.
13:03
video1177567933: and I thought if I'd gone down the gurgler and never, ever tried to do the thing that I knew
13:09
Shannon Kelly-White: I really wanted to do, I'd
13:11
video1177567933: really pissed
13:11
Shannon Kelly-White: off when I got
13:12
video1177567933: the Pearly Gates, I think.
13:13
video1177567933: So, uh, I just thought I'm gonna give it a go.
13:16
video1177567933: What's the worst
13:17
Shannon Kelly-White: thing that
13:17
video1177567933: happen?
13:17
video1177567933: It's that I
13:18
Shannon Kelly-White: fail and
13:19
video1177567933: embarrassed, and I've done a lot of embarrassing shit before.
13:23
video1177567933: If
13:23
Shannon Kelly-White: you read Shannon's Kitchen,
13:24
video1177567933: will certainly know that'cause of the stories are all through it,
13:27
Shannon Kelly-White: and I lived to
13:28
video1177567933: the tale.
13:28
video1177567933: So I thought, I,
13:30
Shannon Kelly-White: I will try"
13:30
video1177567933: and
13:31
Shannon Kelly-White: I did.
13:31
Shannon Kelly-White: And I,
13:33
video1177567933: I love writing.
13:34
video1177567933: I feel like this is what
13:34
Shannon Kelly-White: I wanna do when I grow up,
13:37
video1177567933: finally.
13:39
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that's a wonderful story of persistence and resilience.
13:42
Madeleine Cleary: And, you know, every-- a lot of people do say,"I'd, I'd love to write a book one day." But honestly, it's just showing up every day, isn't it?
13:48
Madeleine Cleary: That's what, that's what you
13:49
video1177567933: to
13:50
Madeleine Cleary: do.
13:50
Madeleine Cleary: And life's never gonna give you the right time, the right moment.
13:54
Madeleine Cleary: You just have to...
13:55
Madeleine Cleary: And there's always gonna be trade-offs and sacrifices, isn't there?
13:58
Shannon Kelly-White: Yeah, absolutely.
14:00
video1177567933: But if there is anyone out
14:01
Shannon Kelly-White: there wanting to write,
14:02
video1177567933: do just
14:03
Shannon Kelly-White: start,
14:03
video1177567933: and don't think that you have to
14:05
Shannon Kelly-White: sit down and,
14:06
video1177567933: and produce something brilliant every
14:08
Shannon Kelly-White: time.
14:08
Shannon Kelly-White: Sometimes the stuff you come up
14:10
video1177567933: bloody garbage.
14:11
video1177567933: Um, and then other days you'll have
14:13
Shannon Kelly-White: a magical day
14:13
video1177567933: it'll be wonderful, but I think just giving yourself permission to start
14:18
Shannon Kelly-White: is,
14:18
video1177567933: is,
14:19
Shannon Kelly-White: is a gift.
14:19
Shannon Kelly-White: And once you get going, you
14:20
video1177567933: be able to stop.
14:21
Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
14:22
Madeleine Cleary: So, okay, so you've got now...
14:24
Madeleine Cleary: So how long did it take for you to write that first draft of the manuscript for Billie King?
14:29
video1177567933: It took, it took a year, so I- Yeah I,
14:33
Shannon Kelly-White: But I wasn't
14:34
video1177567933: during that
14:34
Shannon Kelly-White: time
14:35
video1177567933: I'd
14:35
Shannon Kelly-White: been unwell, so I wasn't
14:36
video1177567933: enough.
14:36
video1177567933: I was
14:37
Shannon Kelly-White: planning on going back
14:37
video1177567933: nursing, but I was, you know, on the other side of, the bed.
14:42
video1177567933: Mm.
14:42
video1177567933: Um, so I wasn't
14:43
Shannon Kelly-White: well enough
14:44
video1177567933: go back, which was a good...
14:45
video1177567933: You know, you say about, you know, you don't get
14:47
Shannon Kelly-White: the right circumstances.
14:48
Shannon Kelly-White: I kind of did because
14:49
video1177567933: I had an excuse to be home, and my brain was fine, so wrote Billie I wrote it in a year.
14:57
Shannon Kelly-White: Um, but that was honestly full-time,
15:00
video1177567933: full-time writing.
15:01
video1177567933: Mm.
15:02
Shannon Kelly-White: Nine to, you know...
15:03
Shannon Kelly-White: Oh, as soon as my kids went
15:04
video1177567933: school, I would start,
15:04
Shannon Kelly-White: and I was often still writing, but, you
15:07
video1177567933: after the, after dinner I would get back into it.
15:08
video1177567933: So
15:09
Shannon Kelly-White: th- there were some massive days of writing, sometimes 12 or 48, 14 hours
15:14
video1177567933: day of writing.
15:14
video1177567933: Oh
15:14
Madeleine Cleary: my
15:14
Shannon Kelly-White: day of writing
15:15
video1177567933: my gosh, how do you do that?
15:15
Madeleine Cleary: do that?
15:16
Madeleine Cleary: I c- I find I get...
15:17
Madeleine Cleary: My brain stops working after a few hours.
15:19
video1177567933: Oh, I'm sure it did.
15:20
video1177567933: I'm sure I was probably just
15:21
Shannon Kelly-White: just too stupid to realize it and stop
15:23
video1177567933: working.
15:23
video1177567933: But I was so in this world.
15:25
video1177567933: I was living- in, in Billie's world, um,
15:28
Shannon Kelly-White: and my poor husband
15:29
video1177567933: too.
15:32
Shannon Kelly-White: So that, yeah, it took me a year,
15:34
video1177567933: but
15:34
Shannon Kelly-White: full throttle
15:35
video1177567933: Wow,
15:36
Madeleine Cleary: that immersion time is so important, I think, when you're cr- crafting that draft.
15:40
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so you've got the manuscript, so then what
15:43
video1177567933: Obviously
15:43
Madeleine Cleary: you felt
15:44
video1177567933: this
15:44
Madeleine Cleary: was a manuscript that had a bit of magic in it, and you wanted to see that published.
15:49
Madeleine Cleary: W- how did you navigate that?
15:52
video1177567933: I was really lucky.
15:53
video1177567933: I had
15:55
Shannon Kelly-White: a mentor throughout writing
15:57
video1177567933: King for the, for the last half of it.
15:59
video1177567933: So Lisa Ireland is a- Mm published author.
16:02
video1177567933: I think she's
16:03
Shannon Kelly-White: done eight books, and she works as a mentor.
16:05
Shannon Kelly-White: So she was the one who said,
16:08
video1177567933: "Shannon, this is special.
16:10
video1177567933: Let's get you an agent." So
16:11
Shannon Kelly-White: she helped me, she connected
16:13
video1177567933: with
16:13
Shannon Kelly-White: an agent.
16:14
video1177567933: Wow so I really- That's amazing.
16:16
video1177567933: That's amazing story I know.
16:18
video1177567933: I
16:18
Shannon Kelly-White: I was very lucky.
16:19
Shannon Kelly-White: Lisa is the most...
16:21
Shannon Kelly-White: She's a real woman's woman, like she's, she just...
16:25
video1177567933: there's room for everyone in
16:26
Shannon Kelly-White: Lisa's heart.
16:27
Shannon Kelly-White: She's,
16:27
video1177567933: she's very generous, very supportive.
16:29
video1177567933: So s- she
16:30
Shannon Kelly-White: connected me with her agent, and so I got
16:33
video1177567933: skip all that horror-
16:34
Madeleine Cleary: Wow.
16:35
video1177567933: Yeah of
16:36
Madeleine Cleary: Lisa?
16:37
Madeleine Cleary: Like, how does one get a mentor?
16:39
video1177567933: I read...
16:40
video1177567933: I'd read a few of her books, and
16:43
Shannon Kelly-White: you know when you go through and
16:44
video1177567933: read the acknowledgements, when you've really loved a book, you read
16:47
Shannon Kelly-White: it right to the end.
16:48
video1177567933: And in one of her acknowledgements, I think it was her, the Dolly Jamison book,
16:53
Shannon Kelly-White: she'd mentioned being
16:55
video1177567933: mentor.
16:55
video1177567933: And so I just...
16:56
Shannon Kelly-White: It was 10 o'clock at
16:57
video1177567933: o'clock at night, I
16:58
Shannon Kelly-White: looked her up on- online and sent her an email
17:01
video1177567933: asking, did she know, was she interested?
17:05
video1177567933: Um, and I
17:05
Shannon Kelly-White: wasn't even sure that
17:06
video1177567933: would take me seriously.
17:07
video1177567933: So it, like it is a paid thing.
17:09
video1177567933: Mm.
17:09
video1177567933: You pay for, for either coaching lessons, one- one-off coaching lessons, or
17:14
Shannon Kelly-White: you can pay to have, like, a six-month
17:17
video1177567933: mentorship.
17:18
video1177567933: So I went for the six-month mentorship, and she was just incredible.
17:21
video1177567933: She really did change my life.
17:23
video1177567933: She doesn't think she helped me at all.
17:25
video1177567933: But, uh, she gave me a lot of confidence, and she
17:27
Shannon Kelly-White: kept
17:28
video1177567933: steady,
17:28
Shannon Kelly-White: and then she
17:29
video1177567933: shared her contacts
17:30
Shannon Kelly-White: with
17:30
video1177567933: which is so generous
17:32
Shannon Kelly-White: because it
17:32
video1177567933: can be really hard to
17:33
Shannon Kelly-White: get
17:33
video1177567933: foot
17:34
Shannon Kelly-White: in the door,
17:35
video1177567933: Um, in the publishing world, as I'm sure you know, so having
17:39
Shannon Kelly-White: someone kind of open a door for you
17:41
video1177567933: is, is a
17:42
Shannon Kelly-White: real gift
17:44
video1177567933: Yes,
17:44
Madeleine Cleary: but also, um, you've done the work and you've got a great story as well.
17:49
Madeleine Cleary: So I'm sure she would not just open the door
17:51
video1177567933: without- No, it, it- having that great story behind it as well she definitely had faith in me, and she definitely had faith in Billie so
17:57
Shannon Kelly-White: so...
17:58
video1177567933: So
17:58
Madeleine Cleary: what happened when that door was opened then, Shannon?
18:01
video1177567933: Oh, I was
18:02
Shannon Kelly-White: so excited.
18:02
Shannon Kelly-White: Um, so Anjanette
18:04
video1177567933: Anjanette Fennell is my
18:05
Shannon Kelly-White: agent, and she, like, fell in love.
18:08
video1177567933: She fell in love with the story.
18:10
video1177567933: Like, I'd emailed it to her, and
18:12
Shannon Kelly-White: I got
18:12
video1177567933: phone call within an hour,
18:14
Madeleine Cleary: Really?
18:15
Madeleine Cleary: An hour?
18:16
video1177567933: saying she'd, so
18:16
Shannon Kelly-White: saying that she'd read the opening pages and loved it, and
18:20
video1177567933: that she'd be
18:20
Shannon Kelly-White: back
18:20
video1177567933: me really soon.
18:21
Shannon Kelly-White: So this was
18:22
video1177567933: only a couple of days
18:23
Shannon Kelly-White: before Christmas,
18:24
video1177567933: so
18:25
Shannon Kelly-White: But I, I...
18:26
Shannon Kelly-White: She was gonna take it.
18:27
Shannon Kelly-White: It,
18:27
video1177567933: it was pretty
18:28
Shannon Kelly-White: clear she was
18:29
video1177567933: take
18:29
Shannon Kelly-White: it on.
18:29
Shannon Kelly-White: So
18:30
video1177567933: then- How did that
18:31
Madeleine Cleary: feel in the moment?
18:32
Madeleine Cleary: It must have all felt like it was happening so quickly
18:35
Shannon Kelly-White: I, on the phone I was just pacing around like
18:37
video1177567933: racehorse before a race, like, I was
18:39
Shannon Kelly-White: so nervous just, um,
18:41
video1177567933: but I felt her, I felt her excitement, and so I,
18:45
Shannon Kelly-White: I just caught that
18:47
video1177567933: so much.
18:47
video1177567933: And then we got the manuscript polished.
18:50
video1177567933: She had a few changes that she thought would be great, and she was absolutely spot on, so we
18:55
Shannon Kelly-White: made the,
18:57
video1177567933: the
18:57
Shannon Kelly-White: first quarter of the book,
18:59
video1177567933: uh, a
18:59
Shannon Kelly-White: little more tense and raised
19:00
video1177567933: stakes a little bit in that first quarter, which it's really great to have a
19:05
Shannon Kelly-White: fresh perspective
19:06
video1177567933: your work, I think, because
19:07
Shannon Kelly-White: when you're
19:07
video1177567933: really
19:08
Shannon Kelly-White: close
19:08
video1177567933: it, you can't always see
19:10
Shannon Kelly-White: what can be improved.
19:11
Shannon Kelly-White: But
19:12
video1177567933: Ange could see it very
19:13
Shannon Kelly-White: clearly, and also she
19:14
video1177567933: has,
19:14
Shannon Kelly-White: you
19:14
video1177567933: that commercial eye.
19:16
Shannon Kelly-White: So she's saying,"If we, if they put it down
19:19
video1177567933: in the first quarter, that's it.
19:20
video1177567933: Doesn't matter how good the rest of it is, they're not...
19:23
video1177567933: you know, they're too busy, so you have to make...
19:25
video1177567933: you have to grab their attention
19:27
Shannon Kelly-White: and keep hold of it." So
19:29
video1177567933: we did some polishing on the manuscript, and then
19:32
Shannon Kelly-White: she was like,"Girl, it's
19:34
video1177567933: to be submitted." So she...
19:35
video1177567933: I s- I had nothing to do with that.
19:37
Shannon Kelly-White: I just
19:38
video1177567933: stood clear.
19:39
video1177567933: Um, and she, she submitted it
19:41
Shannon Kelly-White: far and wide, I believe.
19:43
video1177567933: Um,
19:44
Shannon Kelly-White: and then I was very, very lucky to get
19:46
video1177567933: Neil at Harper Collins, who, um, my
19:49
Shannon Kelly-White: husband describes it to people as it's like being picked number one in the footy draft.
19:55
video1177567933: draft." So, um, uh, but when I got the
19:58
Shannon Kelly-White: phone call that Catherine wanted to publish it,
20:01
video1177567933: was actually dropping off a
20:03
Shannon Kelly-White: little fecal
20:04
video1177567933: at the pathology office.
20:05
video1177567933: So
20:06
Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
20:06
video1177567933: I was like,"The world always finds
20:08
Shannon Kelly-White: a way to
20:09
video1177567933: you back down to earth, doesn't it?" And
20:11
Madeleine Cleary: it's funny, you always expect, like you, you've brought up the word classy a
20:15
video1177567933: times,
20:15
Madeleine Cleary: like that, that you'll be
20:16
video1177567933: some kind of classy
20:17
Madeleine Cleary: moment, you know?
20:19
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, where you, I don't know, you're at some event or something and
20:22
video1177567933: get
20:23
Madeleine Cleary: the phone call and it, every- you have a glass of champagne.
20:26
Madeleine Cleary: But yeah, life is life, isn't it?
20:28
video1177567933: just don't- Had a little jar of poo in my hand when I got my special phone call.
20:32
video1177567933: Did you
20:32
Madeleine Cleary: Did you tell Catherine?
20:34
video1177567933: Not at the time, but I have since told her
20:37
Madeleine Cleary: She would love that, I feel.
20:39
video1177567933: feel.
20:40
video1177567933: She's
20:40
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, that's amazing.
20:41
Madeleine Cleary: And it, uh, I mean, it felt...
20:42
Madeleine Cleary: I mean, Katherine Milne does publish
20:45
video1177567933: certain
20:45
Madeleine Cleary: kind of book, and books full of heart, doesn't it?
20:47
Madeleine Cleary: And, and ones that make you cry, and I felt like this, yeah, I can, I'm completely understand why she would adore this book
20:54
video1177567933: Oh, she's got, she's got some incredible
20:57
Shannon Kelly-White: authors, you know, in her stable, so I'm kind of shocked and delighted
21:01
video1177567933: to be part of it.
21:02
Madeleine Cleary: I'm not shocked at all.
21:03
Madeleine Cleary: No, I was like,
21:04
video1177567933: is her kind of book." I'm not surprised Catherine Milne
21:07
Madeleine Cleary: loved it.
21:07
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so how was it working with Catherine and the editorial team?
21:11
video1177567933: They are just, they're so beautiful and gentle.
21:14
video1177567933: Um, so structurally there was very little work to do,
21:18
Shannon Kelly-White: but I think
21:19
video1177567933: poor editor who
21:20
Shannon Kelly-White: had to
21:21
video1177567933: me where to put commas and semicolons and stuff had his work cut out for him.
21:25
video1177567933: 'Cause I mean, I trained as a
21:27
Shannon Kelly-White: I don't, y-
21:27
video1177567933: y- you know, my, my grammar was learned from year 12 English,
21:31
Shannon Kelly-White: which was frigging yonks ago.
21:32
video1177567933: So- um,
21:34
Shannon Kelly-White: I just,
21:35
video1177567933: I just accepted whatever they said pretty much, um, because they know better than me.
21:41
video1177567933: But
21:41
Shannon Kelly-White: it was really joyful to be able to
21:44
video1177567933: it again
21:45
Shannon Kelly-White: with, with
21:46
video1177567933: because so much of the writing process is just, you know,
21:49
Shannon Kelly-White: you alone at your
21:50
video1177567933: computer or you out taking a walk, and you know, it's all very solitary.
21:56
video1177567933: So other than working with Lisa and having, you know, sharing pages with her and
21:59
Shannon Kelly-White: getting feedback, it was great to finally share it
22:03
video1177567933: with, with people, and that they were so excited about it, too.
22:07
video1177567933: It was...
22:08
video1177567933: I loved, I loved the editing process.
22:10
video1177567933: I'm, I hope I love it again
22:11
Shannon Kelly-White: with book two
22:12
video1177567933: Oh,
22:12
Madeleine Cleary: good.
22:13
Madeleine Cleary: And
22:13
video1177567933: it's
22:13
Madeleine Cleary: exciting, isn't it, when you have a call with someone and they start talking about things you've made up in your head?
22:18
Shannon Kelly-White: I
22:18
video1177567933: Like they're
22:19
Shannon Kelly-White: real people too.
22:20
Shannon Kelly-White: 'Cause I'm like,
22:20
video1177567933: thought I was the only one who thought this person was real.
22:23
video1177567933: That's amazing."
22:24
Madeleine Cleary: It's so cool.
22:25
Madeleine Cleary: It is so cool.
22:26
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, so, so, um, Belly King came out into the world.
22:30
Madeleine Cleary: Um, in the lead up or just, or just after, did you feel more prepared given you've got, you know, a bit of a public profile, you've published cookbooks and other books before, did you feel more prepared, or was it a new kind of vulnerability for you?
22:45
Shannon Kelly-White: It was all new.
22:46
video1177567933: Leading up to it, I felt pretty calm, to be honest.
22:50
video1177567933: Um, and mostly excited.
22:53
video1177567933: Like I was very excited
22:54
Shannon Kelly-White: at the thought of, you know,
22:55
video1177567933: people who'd been
22:56
Shannon Kelly-White: with me from
22:57
video1177567933: Shannon's
22:57
Shannon Kelly-White: Kitchen era
22:58
video1177567933: to Billie King, and I
23:00
Shannon Kelly-White: I was so excited to hear what they
23:01
video1177567933: they would
23:01
Shannon Kelly-White: think.
23:02
video1177567933: But then when it was published, I suddenly got quite terrified because what I'd published before, like the Shannon's Kitchen stuff, was really
23:13
Shannon Kelly-White: ridiculous and a lot of people would hate it
23:15
video1177567933: it was so irreverent, but it was a tiny portion
23:19
Shannon Kelly-White: of me.
23:20
Shannon Kelly-White: It wasn't
23:20
video1177567933: the real me
23:22
Shannon Kelly-White: properly.
23:23
Shannon Kelly-White: So
23:24
video1177567933: if anyone hated it, it was honestly water off a duck's back.
23:26
video1177567933: I couldn't give a shit.
23:28
video1177567933: Like it, whatever.
23:29
video1177567933: Um, so-
23:32
Shannon Kelly-White: I
23:32
video1177567933: I sort of thought that I
23:33
Shannon Kelly-White: would have that
23:34
video1177567933: attitude Billie King.
23:35
video1177567933: I I've been
23:36
Shannon Kelly-White: through this before.
23:37
Shannon Kelly-White: I'm untouchable." But
23:39
video1177567933: as soon as it was out
23:41
Shannon Kelly-White: and I realized, oh my
23:42
video1177567933: complete strangers are gonna be able to see directly into my heart and soul," I was terrified.
23:48
video1177567933: Mm.
23:48
video1177567933: And
23:49
Shannon Kelly-White: for the
23:49
video1177567933: first week I could hardly eat.
23:51
Shannon Kelly-White: I was
23:51
video1177567933: so frightened.
23:53
video1177567933: And I, it wasn't really so much that people might
23:57
Shannon Kelly-White: read it
23:58
video1177567933: say,"Oh, she's a shit writer," or,"I didn't
24:01
Shannon Kelly-White: like this story." It was more that I felt really exposed, and I didn't see that
24:06
video1177567933: so
24:07
Shannon Kelly-White: I was quite shocked.
24:08
video1177567933: Um, but I have actually made peace with it now.
24:11
video1177567933: I've gotten...
24:12
video1177567933: You know, you get
24:13
Shannon Kelly-White: used
24:13
video1177567933: these things.
24:13
video1177567933: I do still feel a little bit vulnerable when I let myself think about it too deeply, but
24:19
Shannon Kelly-White: the emails that I've
24:21
video1177567933: the messages that I've gotten from people
24:23
Shannon Kelly-White: telling me that the book touched their soul has really been like a balm
24:29
video1177567933: on that fear, and it's made me think that it's worth it.
24:33
video1177567933: It's worth it to put yourself out there and, and to feel that fear, to
24:39
Shannon Kelly-White: maybe connect with someone that you don't even know.
24:42
Shannon Kelly-White: You
24:42
video1177567933: haven't even
24:43
Shannon Kelly-White: met them in the flesh,
24:44
video1177567933: they're telling me that,
24:45
Shannon Kelly-White: you know,
24:47
video1177567933: I've
24:47
Shannon Kelly-White: touched their
24:47
video1177567933: I
24:48
Shannon Kelly-White: think that's just magical and beautiful, so I've gotten over it.
24:52
video1177567933: Yeah, actually- That was a really long answer.
24:53
video1177567933: Sorry about that.
24:54
Madeleine Cleary: Don't know, that's a, I think that's a, a amazing answer, and I think it's so hard though when you're living in that vulnerability at the time to see,'cause you know, you, you don't know how you'll feel in a few months, where you do start to get some of those early reviews and reader reviews who are, who are saying how much they adored it.
25:11
Madeleine Cleary: And they do really bolster you, because it's at that start, you've got no idea.
25:15
Madeleine Cleary: You have no idea what people, how people will react.
25:18
Madeleine Cleary: And when it is something that's
25:19
video1177567933: really
25:20
Madeleine Cleary: dear to you, and personal, and
25:23
video1177567933: poured
25:23
Madeleine Cleary: so much into it, you, you, you're we- really wearing your heart on your sleeve, aren't you?
25:28
Madeleine Cleary: And
25:28
video1177567933: You are too, and I'm sure you would know all about that with The Butterfly Women.
25:31
video1177567933: You would've felt a real connection to your story
25:33
Shannon Kelly-White: as well, so that it,
25:35
video1177567933: it's precious to you.
25:36
video1177567933: Um- Yeah but I can also feel that your, your ex-
25:40
Shannon Kelly-White: your heart
25:41
video1177567933: out, is in your book as well, I think.
25:43
video1177567933: So did you feel the same way?
25:43
video1177567933: I think we all do.
25:44
video1177567933: I think- Yeah everybody pours...
25:46
video1177567933: You know, as,
25:46
Madeleine Cleary: as particularly as a debut novelist, I think as well, you, you...
25:50
Madeleine Cleary: They do say that you put a lot of yourself into your first book, and perhaps it'll change, I don't know, i- in subsequent books.
25:57
Madeleine Cleary: But yeah, it, it's, it's it's a really
25:59
video1177567933: one.
25:59
Madeleine Cleary: Um, I mean, I, I ended up getting my husband to only
26:05
video1177567933: read
26:05
Madeleine Cleary: the five-star reviews on Goodreads to me, so I could...
26:10
Madeleine Cleary: So I was only getting positive feedback.
26:12
Madeleine Cleary: Um,
26:13
video1177567933: you- That's how
26:14
Shannon Kelly-White: it should be.
26:15
video1177567933: do you read your Goodreads
26:16
Madeleine Cleary: reviews?
26:17
video1177567933: I got banned, so my husband banned me from- from looking on,
26:21
Shannon Kelly-White: on Goodreads
26:22
video1177567933: because I, I came upon
26:24
Shannon Kelly-White: one that was, it was
26:27
video1177567933: Pretty rude.
26:27
Shannon Kelly-White: You know?
26:28
Shannon Kelly-White: It was pretty rude, and
26:29
video1177567933: I,
26:30
Shannon Kelly-White: It was
26:30
video1177567933: in the early days, and I was I was like,
26:34
Shannon Kelly-White: "Why would this person say this?
26:36
Shannon Kelly-White: Like, they don't even know
26:37
video1177567933: me." And I really took it to heart, and it was ridiculous.
26:39
video1177567933: And
26:40
Shannon Kelly-White: he's like,"That's it.
26:41
Shannon Kelly-White: You're banned."
26:42
video1177567933: And I
26:43
Shannon Kelly-White: s- I was...
26:43
video1177567933: kind of was like,"You're right."
26:44
Shannon Kelly-White: 'cause the...
26:44
Shannon Kelly-White: it really affected me for,
26:46
video1177567933: a couple of days I was...
26:47
video1177567933: I didn't even know who this person was.
26:49
video1177567933: Um, and it did
26:51
Shannon Kelly-White: me no good,'cause it
26:52
video1177567933: it didn't...
26:53
video1177567933: It wasn't going Billie King already written.
26:54
video1177567933: There was nothing I could do to change it.
26:56
video1177567933: I didn't think their feedback was warranted anyway, so what good did it do to, to cause me that,
27:02
Shannon Kelly-White: that grief?
27:02
Shannon Kelly-White: So, yeah, I was banned and I
27:04
video1177567933: remain banned.
27:05
video1177567933: Um, so the
27:06
Shannon Kelly-White: only reviews I see
27:07
video1177567933: are ones
27:07
Shannon Kelly-White: that are in print,
27:08
video1177567933: like maybe in a newspaper or a magazine, um, or when
27:12
Shannon Kelly-White: on Instagram
27:13
video1177567933: Instagram or when I'm tagged, which you assume if you're tagged, it's gonna be friendly.
27:18
video1177567933: You
27:18
Madeleine Cleary: hope so.
27:19
video1177567933: think so.
27:19
video1177567933: So I do read those,'cause I think it's so wonderful when people bother to share your book and spread the word for you, because
27:26
Shannon Kelly-White: it's hard out there for
27:27
video1177567933: especially Aussie books, to get noticed.
27:30
video1177567933: So it's so wonderful when people will, will give you a great review and shout out, like,"Read this book.
27:36
video1177567933: It's fantastic." It's...
27:37
video1177567933: We need that, right, to get our- Absolutely.
27:39
video1177567933: Yeah.
27:39
video1177567933: I
27:40
Madeleine Cleary: I think as well, if you're really fixated on Goodreads and, and, you know, you want, you take that on and you think,"Oh, I'm...
27:46
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, I'll, I'll adapt that for the next book." If you did that, you'd be just hamstrung.
27:51
Madeleine Cleary: You wouldn't be able to write, because everyone likes something different.
27:54
Madeleine Cleary: Everyone hates something different.
27:56
Madeleine Cleary: Peop- uh, you know, I, I think people were sort of saying,"Oh, I really like the crime thread and the, the serial killer for Butterfly," but then other people would be like,"Crime's not needed.
28:04
Madeleine Cleary: It should've just been about the women." Like, you can't please everyone, can you?
28:08
video1177567933: No, you absolutely
28:09
Shannon Kelly-White: cannot, and if you try, you'll just go bonkers
28:11
Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
28:11
Madeleine Cleary: You just gotta write for yourself, I think.
28:13
Madeleine Cleary: What, what entertains you?
28:14
Madeleine Cleary: What gives you joy?
28:15
Madeleine Cleary: You just put it out there and see what happens
28:16
video1177567933: happens.
28:17
video1177567933: I think so too.
28:18
video1177567933: Like, the questions that,
28:19
Shannon Kelly-White: the questions that you have for the world, you
28:21
video1177567933: just gotta follow, follow your nose on that, I think,
28:24
Shannon Kelly-White: Then,'cause yeah, there's no pleasing everyone, that's for damn sure
28:27
video1177567933: Exactly.
28:28
Madeleine Cleary: Exactly.
28:28
Madeleine Cleary: Now, I wanna talk about the setting of Billie King,'cause I found this...
28:32
Madeleine Cleary: You, you have so much strength in writing s- um, setting the Australian bush.
28:36
Madeleine Cleary: It was quite mythical.
28:37
Madeleine Cleary: It felt almost like reading a fable with the caves and the scrub and the bush, and I just loved it.
28:43
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I, I want to admit something to you, Shannon.
28:45
Madeleine Cleary: I got really into lady bushrangers, um, several years ago, and I had this idea that I would write a lady bushranger book.
28:54
video1177567933: Um- Oh, I'm sorry.
28:55
video1177567933: and it was, I was, like, totally fixated on
28:57
Madeleine Cleary: it.
28:57
Madeleine Cleary: But then I realized that I don't know anything about
29:00
video1177567933: bush
29:01
Madeleine Cleary: or horses or anything about bush ranging or anything,'cause I've, I'm a total city girl.
29:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so I just felt like such a fraud.
29:09
Madeleine Cleary: So I'm so glad it was you who wrote this book,'cause I think it's, um, a book that we n- all needed.
29:14
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so can you tell us, like, a little bit about your experiences and how they've
29:18
video1177567933: shaped and
29:19
Madeleine Cleary: found their way into the book, particularly around the setting?
29:22
video1177567933: Yeah, absolutely.
29:23
Shannon Kelly-White: So I'm a country girl, which you can probably
29:25
video1177567933: from my accent.
29:26
video1177567933: Um, and growing up I would get to go up the high country with my dad, because the Kelly family are cattle- farmers up there, and
29:34
Shannon Kelly-White: so I would get to go on cattle musters up
29:37
video1177567933: the
29:37
Shannon Kelly-White: high country,
29:38
video1177567933: and it is the most wonderful place.
29:41
video1177567933: It is vast, dangerous, absolutely beautiful, and you can
29:46
Shannon Kelly-White: lose yourself
29:47
video1177567933: in every sense of the word in that place.
29:50
video1177567933: And so I very much drew
29:52
Shannon Kelly-White: on that time
29:54
video1177567933: when I was writing it.
29:55
video1177567933: I was back in the saddle on my horse
29:57
Shannon Kelly-White: and,
29:58
video1177567933: you know, moving through this
29:59
Shannon Kelly-White: country that is very dangerous.
30:01
Shannon Kelly-White: You have to pay attention to everything.
30:03
Shannon Kelly-White: So
30:04
video1177567933: the, the, the setting is based on my history, on my
30:08
Shannon Kelly-White: family's history.
30:09
Shannon Kelly-White: So my dad
30:10
video1177567933: up in a town called
30:11
Shannon Kelly-White: Omeo,
30:12
video1177567933: Mm-hmm.
30:13
video1177567933: And
30:13
Shannon Kelly-White: so
30:14
video1177567933: I got to, yeah, go there a lot as a kid And
30:20
Shannon Kelly-White: going
30:21
video1177567933: the bush on my horse, that, that's all through the book
30:24
Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
30:25
Madeleine Cleary: The stakes always felt really high'cause it, it, it felt like the bush was almost a character in itself, you know,'cause it's so much beauty.
30:31
Madeleine Cleary: It just sounded so extraordinary, so expansive and vast.
30:34
Madeleine Cleary: But there was always that fear about what's around the corner
30:38
Shannon Kelly-White: Yeah, absolutely.
30:39
Shannon Kelly-White: And I think
30:40
video1177567933: of Mother Earth
30:40
Shannon Kelly-White: is
30:41
video1177567933: character
30:41
Shannon Kelly-White: really, isn't she?
30:42
Shannon Kelly-White: And she's not against us,
30:43
video1177567933: she's just doing her own
30:44
Shannon Kelly-White: thing,
30:45
video1177567933: you gotta pay attention.
30:46
video1177567933: Mm-hmm You gotta pay attention.
30:47
Shannon Kelly-White: Like, the, I remember we, um, were riding across, um,
30:51
video1177567933: a plateau, and there were springs, but you
30:54
Shannon Kelly-White: have to...
30:54
Shannon Kelly-White: You cannot
30:55
video1177567933: them, but if a horse
30:56
Shannon Kelly-White: steps in one,
30:57
video1177567933: it'll snap its leg.
30:58
video1177567933: So
30:58
Shannon Kelly-White: you've gotta look out for the clues like the moss and the, you know, things like that.
31:02
video1177567933: it was great trying to remember all of
31:04
Shannon Kelly-White: those, all of those
31:05
video1177567933: tricks that the bush has.
31:06
video1177567933: Mm,
31:07
Madeleine Cleary: mm, Absolutely.
31:08
Madeleine Cleary: And, um, we also should
31:10
video1177567933: about
31:10
Madeleine Cleary: your lead, leading ladies.
31:13
Madeleine Cleary: Um, I read in, I think it might have been in your acknowledgments, you said that these, um, characters that you developed were all made from you, parts of you.
31:23
video1177567933: Um,
31:23
Madeleine Cleary: and we talked earlier about how, you know, often we put ourselves into our first novels.
31:29
Madeleine Cleary: Um, was it, was it deliberate?
31:31
Madeleine Cleary: Like, did you actually think about inserting yourselves into these characters, or did it just feel very natural to do so?
31:38
video1177567933: No, it felt very natural.
31:40
video1177567933: I think Billie, Billie was the one that, she's
31:44
Shannon Kelly-White: probably a lot like me
31:45
video1177567933: I a kid, so...
31:45
video1177567933: And Billie is
31:47
Shannon Kelly-White: also a lot like
31:48
video1177567933: dad.
31:48
video1177567933: There's a dad Billie as well.
31:50
video1177567933: Um, so she was really easy and sort of arrived, arrived fully formed, and Dulcie took a lot more work, and- Mm.
31:59
video1177567933: So
31:59
Madeleine Cleary: Dulcie's the bushranger
32:00
video1177567933: those who haven't read the book Yes,
32:01
Shannon Kelly-White: Dulcie's a bushranger.
32:02
Shannon Kelly-White: And so I,
32:03
video1177567933: I wanted her,
32:06
Shannon Kelly-White: her story to be very
32:07
video1177567933: and the fact that
32:08
Shannon Kelly-White: she's done these horrible
32:09
video1177567933: things,
32:09
Shannon Kelly-White: you know, she's murdered people,
32:11
video1177567933: why?
32:12
video1177567933: So- Mm she, it took a
32:13
Shannon Kelly-White: lot of work to,
32:14
video1177567933: to, to meet her and to discover her life from, from a child and onwards and what pushed her down that, down this very dark path, and to give her reasons that I could and readers might be able to find some compassion
32:32
Shannon Kelly-White: for.
32:33
video1177567933: Um, but I think we've all probably done bad things
32:37
Shannon Kelly-White: for
32:37
video1177567933: reasons before,
32:39
Shannon Kelly-White: so I kind of tapped into that, that part of myself when writing
32:44
video1177567933: Dulcie.
32:45
Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
32:46
Shannon Kelly-White: And Anna,
32:47
video1177567933: Anna is a former lady of the
32:49
Shannon Kelly-White: night, and she's quite...
32:52
video1177567933: She's at the bottom of the pecking order, and she kind of always has been.
32:56
video1177567933: And she
32:56
Shannon Kelly-White: is a
32:57
video1177567933: very beautiful woman, but- it's done her no favors because that's kind of all people have ever seen in her, and
33:05
Shannon Kelly-White: then
33:07
video1177567933: she's, she feels like she can't scramble out from the bottom of the pack,
33:11
Shannon Kelly-White: and she's really frustrated.
33:13
Shannon Kelly-White: So
33:13
video1177567933: I tapped into that
33:15
Shannon Kelly-White: frustration that I have felt before
33:17
video1177567933: when I've been held back for
33:18
Shannon Kelly-White: various reasons, whether it's, you know, just being
33:21
video1177567933: a woman or
33:23
Shannon Kelly-White: people assuming that you're stupid,
33:25
video1177567933: whatever
33:26
Shannon Kelly-White: it is.
33:26
Shannon Kelly-White: So I was able to tap into different
33:28
video1177567933: past experiences
33:30
Shannon Kelly-White: that I've had
33:30
video1177567933: for each of the characters, which makes it a lot easier for me to empathize with them, and hopefully that can come across to the reader and then they
33:39
Shannon Kelly-White: can feel
33:40
video1177567933: compassion for them, too.
33:41
video1177567933: Because they've, they're not perfect characters at all.
33:43
video1177567933: They're, they're flawed women.
33:45
video1177567933: They do the wrong thing sometimes, for sure.
33:49
video1177567933: But I think a lot of the time people do the wrong thing for a reason.
33:53
video1177567933: Mm.
33:54
video1177567933: And if you can find out the reason, you can usually
33:57
Shannon Kelly-White: have empathy and understand.
33:59
video1177567933: So that's what I was trying to go for, to, to, to draw on my own past experiences and hurts and failures and
34:07
Shannon Kelly-White: sort of breathe
34:07
video1177567933: into the women, but in very different ways.
34:10
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
34:10
Madeleine Cleary: You did that
34:11
video1177567933: Yeah.
34:12
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I mean, given that this novel was set in sort of the, those early
34:16
video1177567933: few
34:16
Madeleine Cleary: decades of the 20th century, it still felt very relevant, the sort of conversations about women in power and also how we, I suppose, judge and classify women, and you talked about
34:27
video1177567933: pecking
34:27
Madeleine Cleary: order with Anna.
34:28
Madeleine Cleary: You know, she's, she's that typical fa- fallen women, as they used to call them, and, um, oh, they still do.
34:35
video1177567933: Um- Mm
34:36
Madeleine Cleary: and, and you know,
34:37
video1177567933: uh,
34:37
Madeleine Cleary: Dulcie is, is wicked,
34:40
video1177567933: Like,
34:40
Madeleine Cleary: she's evil, she's a murderer, she does bad things.
34:43
Madeleine Cleary: And then Billie herself, you know, she's only 12, but already she's being told by often men about how she should dress and what she should do and what, how she should behave, and she's trying to...
34:53
Madeleine Cleary: She's pushing up against that, and she internalizes a lot of that and says,"Oh, maybe I am a bad little girl, like maybe this is who I am." So what, what kind of conversations were you hoping to, to start by y- sort of building on this?
35:06
Madeleine Cleary: 'Cause I think that it's a really, um, it's something that we should all be talking about, and we still, it's still very relevant in today's world.
35:14
video1177567933: Oh, that's
35:15
Shannon Kelly-White: such a lovely question.
35:16
Shannon Kelly-White: I think I really, I really want
35:19
video1177567933: to...
35:20
video1177567933: The, the biggest thing is
35:21
Shannon Kelly-White: I would love people to tap back
35:22
video1177567933: their spirit, their,
35:24
Shannon Kelly-White: that, that spirit
35:25
video1177567933: that we're given as children, and to respect it in the children around us as well, to not try and make them smaller or make them behave how we want them to be, to, to let them lean into their spirit, because
35:37
Shannon Kelly-White: I think it often
35:38
video1177567933: leads us down a very wonderful path, even if there's a bit of mischief along the way.
35:42
video1177567933: So I think a lot of it is about honoring your own spirit and your own heart, and
35:48
Shannon Kelly-White: being really true to yourself
35:50
video1177567933: is a huge
35:50
Shannon Kelly-White: part
35:52
video1177567933: of Billie King.
35:53
Shannon Kelly-White: And also
35:55
video1177567933: Recognizing when another woman's down on her luck and when she might have been knocked down by others.
36:00
video1177567933: So if there is a woman out there who
36:02
Shannon Kelly-White: feels that way,
36:03
video1177567933: I hope that Billie King would, would give some inspiration to, to
36:09
Shannon Kelly-White: get back up and fight.
36:11
Shannon Kelly-White: And for other women who might see that other
36:13
video1177567933: have been knocked down, to
36:14
Shannon Kelly-White: yank them back up to their feet
36:16
video1177567933: and help and stand together and have each
36:18
Shannon Kelly-White: other's backs
36:19
video1177567933: and Yeah, form that sisterhood Mm Fight
36:23
Shannon Kelly-White: for each other.
36:24
Shannon Kelly-White: Fight for ourselves, and fight for each other
36:26
Madeleine Cleary: I could feel the bonds of female friendship in this, which I love.
36:29
Madeleine Cleary: We were talking about that
36:30
video1177567933: Oh, I would not have got through my life without
36:32
Shannon Kelly-White: my girlfriends.
36:33
Shannon Kelly-White: I'm
36:33
video1177567933: very lucky that I've had
36:34
Shannon Kelly-White: the same
36:35
video1177567933: best mate since I was a baby.
36:37
Shannon Kelly-White: Like, we were in nappies
36:38
video1177567933: Wow and we always joke
36:39
Shannon Kelly-White: that w-
36:39
video1177567933: we'll be in nappies again when we're old- old ladies together.
36:43
video1177567933: Um,
36:43
Shannon Kelly-White: so I've been very lucky to have, to have
36:47
video1177567933: strong female relationships, and
36:49
Shannon Kelly-White: they are
36:51
video1177567933: they're everything.
36:52
video1177567933: They get you through, they
36:53
Shannon Kelly-White: get you through the darkest times, and they never let
36:56
video1177567933: down.
36:56
video1177567933: They're...
36:56
video1177567933: And
36:57
Shannon Kelly-White: women are just so
36:58
video1177567933: bloody funny and so tough.
37:00
video1177567933: I just think,"Oh my God, how do some men not see this?
37:03
video1177567933: We're so fabulous." I agree.
37:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, have you had any male readers reach out to you, and what are their thoughts on this book?
37:11
video1177567933: I have.
37:12
video1177567933: I've had quite a few, actually, which has just, it's surprised me and delighted me, to be honest.
37:18
video1177567933: Um, so there's been some beautiful reviews from men.
37:21
video1177567933: There was a review
37:22
Shannon Kelly-White: just in the, um, The Australian, I think
37:25
video1177567933: was, on the weekend
37:26
Shannon Kelly-White: from
37:27
video1177567933: male journalist who adored it and said what a great Netflix show it
37:31
Shannon Kelly-White: would be,
37:32
video1177567933: saying that, you know, that- Oh, I agree with that And saying what, that they know that the pursuit of deciding for ourselves who we are and what we deserve is a really universal plight.
37:43
video1177567933: So I've, yeah, I've been, I've been delighted.
37:46
video1177567933: Like, Mr.
37:47
Shannon Kelly-White: Shannon was forced
37:48
video1177567933: to read it, um, and probably forced to love it.
37:52
video1177567933: Um,
37:52
Shannon Kelly-White: and the other, the So he was the
37:54
video1177567933: man to read it, and the second to read it was my dad.
37:58
video1177567933: Aw.
37:58
video1177567933: And my dad is not, he's not
38:00
Shannon Kelly-White: a reader, so he has always found reading quite difficult.
38:03
Shannon Kelly-White: He p- probably has,
38:05
video1177567933: been, we've been talking about it and he probably has, uh, dyslexia, we think, undiagnosed.
38:10
video1177567933: He's very clever,
38:11
Shannon Kelly-White: but n- does, for him reading
38:13
video1177567933: work.
38:13
video1177567933: So he'll read the newspaper every day, but he
38:15
Shannon Kelly-White: does not read for pleasure.
38:17
Shannon Kelly-White: And so I wanted him to read my book,
38:19
video1177567933: and it was still just on printed out paper at this stage.
38:24
Shannon Kelly-White: And so I said to him,"Well, I w- I'd
38:26
video1177567933: really like you to read it so that you could tell me
38:28
Shannon Kelly-White: if I've gone wrong with any of the bush stuff,
38:30
video1177567933: the flora and fauna or,
38:32
Shannon Kelly-White: or, you know, if there's something I've mucked up with the horses.
38:35
Shannon Kelly-White: I,
38:35
video1177567933: it would be really great
38:36
Shannon Kelly-White: for
38:36
video1177567933: to have a look at it."
38:37
Shannon Kelly-White: So he's like,"Oh,
38:38
video1177567933: all right.
38:38
Shannon Kelly-White: all right." Um,
38:39
video1177567933: and then he ended up, he started it on a Saturday morning,
38:43
Shannon Kelly-White: and he was finished it
38:44
video1177567933: by Sunday night.
38:45
video1177567933: Mm-hmm.
38:45
video1177567933: And I'm
38:46
Shannon Kelly-White: very lucky I live in the same town
38:48
video1177567933: my parents again, and I went
38:49
Shannon Kelly-White: round there
38:50
video1177567933: pick up his notes.
38:51
video1177567933: And when I walked in, he stood up, and I
38:53
Shannon Kelly-White: was like,"What'd you think, Dad?" And he was like,"Oh,
38:56
video1177567933: it's a beauty, Snow."'Cause he's called- Aw that's
38:58
Shannon Kelly-White: my nickname.
38:59
video1177567933: he was teary, and, uh, he just, he just loved it.
39:03
video1177567933: And so-
39:05
Shannon Kelly-White: having
39:06
video1177567933: love it was one of the best moments of this whole ride because I felt like a little kid again,
39:11
Shannon Kelly-White: home from kinder with my little painting, holding it up under
39:14
video1177567933: chin asking,"What do you reckon, Dad?"
39:16
Shannon Kelly-White: Um, so getting that
39:17
video1177567933: on the head was, was so special and I kind of am surprised.
39:22
video1177567933: I thought that men might feel a little bit attacked reading it because there's a few characters in there that are, are pretty ordinary
39:29
Shannon Kelly-White: and one of the characters
39:32
video1177567933: is just kind of
39:34
Shannon Kelly-White: stands back and watches and lets things
39:36
video1177567933: happen to women that
39:38
Shannon Kelly-White: he could step in
39:39
video1177567933: help, and he doesn't.
39:39
video1177567933: And
39:40
Shannon Kelly-White: I think that guy pisses me
39:42
video1177567933: the most of all- Mm because
39:43
Shannon Kelly-White: I think that's probably what does happen too often, is that men don't get in
39:48
video1177567933: and
39:48
Shannon Kelly-White: go,"No, don't, don't treat women that way."
39:51
video1177567933: So he,
39:51
Shannon Kelly-White: this character was a reflection of that.
39:54
Madeleine Cleary: Mm-hmm.
39:55
video1177567933: and so any- I thought men might
39:56
Shannon Kelly-White: feel a little
39:56
video1177567933: more
39:57
Shannon Kelly-White: attacked,
39:57
video1177567933: but
39:58
Shannon Kelly-White: the,
39:59
video1177567933: They seem to be copping it on the chin.
40:00
video1177567933: Mm.
40:01
video1177567933: Which is good.
40:02
video1177567933: Oh, I, I
40:03
Madeleine Cleary: love that.
40:03
Madeleine Cleary: That story about your dad is so beautiful, and I love that you've got to frame it as,"Oh no, I need, I need your advice, Dad.
40:09
Madeleine Cleary: This is, this..." You know, because dads love to give advice, don't they?
40:13
Madeleine Cleary: But
40:13
video1177567933: the end- Well, he- adored it oh, he, my dad does.
40:15
video1177567933: He's a man of
40:15
Shannon Kelly-White: few words.
40:16
Shannon Kelly-White: He,
40:16
video1177567933: he'll only tell you what he thinks if
40:18
Shannon Kelly-White: if he,
40:18
video1177567933: he thinks you really need to hear it.
40:20
video1177567933: Um-
40:20
Shannon Kelly-White: so it was delightful that,
40:23
video1177567933: so it was delightful.
40:23
video1177567933: But, uh, him
40:24
Shannon Kelly-White: him loving it was one of the best things ever.
40:25
video1177567933: I just- That's really
40:27
Shannon Kelly-White: yeah, it still
40:27
video1177567933: makes me nearly cry with
40:28
Shannon Kelly-White: just thinking about it.
40:29
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I love that so much.
40:31
Shannon Kelly-White: And a lot of his stories had
40:33
video1177567933: through.
40:33
video1177567933: So he, you know, as
40:34
Shannon Kelly-White: a kid, he would, you know, tuck me under his arm, and he'd
40:37
video1177567933: read me bush tales, and he'd read me Banjo Paterson and Henry Lawson.
40:40
video1177567933: But he also told me
40:42
Shannon Kelly-White: the stories of his childhood, and he had it, you know, he had it
40:45
video1177567933: rough growing up.
40:46
video1177567933: They didn't have electricity till he was 12, and- Oh, my gosh um, you know, he, he had to go get a brumby as a ho- He, you know, they couldn't afford a horse.
40:53
video1177567933: He had to go get a brumby.
40:55
video1177567933: So he,
40:55
Shannon Kelly-White: a lot of
40:56
video1177567933: the
40:56
Shannon Kelly-White: stories
40:57
video1177567933: in Billie King, them have come from Dad, so I think it was special for him to see how much I've
41:02
Shannon Kelly-White: been paying attention
41:03
video1177567933: and how much,
41:04
Shannon Kelly-White: you know, I love him.
41:05
Shannon Kelly-White: It's through in, in Billie King,
41:06
video1177567933: for sure.
41:07
Madeleine Cleary: Oh,
41:07
video1177567933: wonderful.
41:08
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, he can be your early reader then for your next book coming, which is that's
41:14
video1177567933: Hopefully.
41:14
video1177567933: Well, the next one is set in, is set somewhere a bit sketchy, so he might, he might not
41:18
Shannon Kelly-White: he might not love this
41:19
video1177567933: so much.
41:20
video1177567933: Can you
41:20
Madeleine Cleary: tell us a bit about it?
41:22
Shannon Kelly-White: So the next
41:23
video1177567933: is set in 1970s Melbourne, and
41:26
Shannon Kelly-White: it follows a girl in her mid-20s who was born
41:30
video1177567933: a life of crime, and she gets asked to hunt down a feminist, and she
41:37
Shannon Kelly-White: has to decide
41:38
video1177567933: whether
41:38
Shannon Kelly-White: or not,
41:39
video1177567933: you know, how
41:39
Shannon Kelly-White: she's gonna do this
41:40
video1177567933: Ooh, I
41:41
Madeleine Cleary: love the setup.
41:42
Madeleine Cleary: That sounds fantastic.
41:44
video1177567933: fantastic.
41:44
video1177567933: Excellent.
41:44
Shannon Kelly-White: But it's set, so the setting is like a topless bar in,
41:47
video1177567933: in Melbourne.
41:49
video1177567933: Which
41:49
Madeleine Cleary: street?
41:51
Madeleine Cleary: I'm just curious
41:52
video1177567933: It, it's
41:52
Shannon Kelly-White: on, it's on King Street, but it's a
41:55
video1177567933: Oh it's a fictional place.
41:57
Madeleine Cleary: Love it.
41:57
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, I can't wait for that one.
41:59
video1177567933: Um, now I've got
42:00
Madeleine Cleary: a few last questions, and I really wanna ask you about this'cause, um, obviously I also...
42:05
Madeleine Cleary: Well, I write historical fiction, and I know, this with Billie King, it sits in history, but it's not traditional historical fiction because y- you, you do mention that you made a conscious choice to use more modern language to keep it really open, um, uh, which...
42:20
Madeleine Cleary: and modern, which I thought was an amazing choice, and I think it really worked well for this novel
42:25
video1177567933: well.
42:25
Madeleine Cleary: So curious about that,
42:27
video1177567933: That,
42:28
Madeleine Cleary: the language and that choice, and is that how you like to read?
42:32
Madeleine Cleary: Is that something that y- you, you enjoy reading those sort of open books?
42:37
video1177567933: I enjoy books that have,
42:40
Shannon Kelly-White: like, put the character first, 100%.
42:43
video1177567933: that's my biggest tick, and I'll, I just, yeah, I like a book
42:47
Shannon Kelly-White: that feels conversational, I think.
42:48
Shannon Kelly-White: So
42:50
video1177567933: with Billie King, I
42:51
Shannon Kelly-White: never, I, I never set out to write historical fiction, so
42:55
video1177567933: it...
42:56
Shannon Kelly-White: But it was just that I
42:57
video1177567933: so drawn to this thought of, of a lady bushranger that
43:00
Shannon Kelly-White: I couldn't, I couldn't stop.
43:02
Shannon Kelly-White: And when I was sort of starting out and trying to find a voice, uh,
43:07
video1177567933: the, the, the one that came through, I just
43:09
Shannon Kelly-White: couldn't deny it, and it
43:10
video1177567933: did feel right to me even though it's not,
43:13
Shannon Kelly-White: you know, strictly historically accurate.
43:16
Shannon Kelly-White: It felt true to me, and I felt like it would keep it less dusty
43:21
video1177567933: distant, and I really wanted that closeness.
43:23
video1177567933: I wanted the
43:24
Shannon Kelly-White: reader to feel very close to the story, so I didn't want a barrier of
43:28
video1177567933: kind.
43:28
video1177567933: But I know
43:29
Shannon Kelly-White: it
43:29
video1177567933: won't be for everyone, and that's fine, but I feel
43:31
Shannon Kelly-White: like it is the right
43:32
video1177567933: tone for
43:33
Shannon Kelly-White: Billie King
43:34
Madeleine Cleary: Hmm.
43:35
Madeleine Cleary: I love that.
43:35
Madeleine Cleary: I think you've given permission for other his- well, uh, writers that write his- in, in history, that people can actually...
43:42
Madeleine Cleary: You can do what you want, you know, to, to tell the story that you wanna tell
43:45
video1177567933: Um, well, I think that storytelling should never be prescriptive.
43:49
video1177567933: That's right.
43:50
video1177567933: So, um, yeah, I hope, well, I hope it does.
43:52
video1177567933: That would be cool.
43:53
Madeleine Cleary: I think so.
43:54
Madeleine Cleary: I think so.
43:55
Madeleine Cleary: Um, now I'm just really curious, um, about your current writing practice and routine.
44:00
Madeleine Cleary: So now you're a published, published...
44:03
Madeleine Cleary: Well, you are a novelist.
44:04
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you've also got your business.
44:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, you've got kids, busy life.
44:09
Madeleine Cleary: How do you manage and balance writing these days?
44:12
video1177567933: I am pretty lucky because I
44:14
Shannon Kelly-White: have
44:14
video1177567933: a lot of time
44:15
Shannon Kelly-White: to write.
44:15
Shannon Kelly-White: So
44:16
video1177567933: I write when the kids are at
44:18
Shannon Kelly-White: school
44:19
video1177567933: every
44:20
Shannon Kelly-White: day without
44:21
video1177567933: unless I'm pausing
44:21
Shannon Kelly-White: to do
44:22
video1177567933: a wonderful podcast like this.
44:24
video1177567933: Um,
44:24
Shannon Kelly-White: and then I squeeze it in around
44:27
video1177567933: kids' activities after school and then often after dinner as well, because I
44:31
Shannon Kelly-White: just love it.
44:32
video1177567933: I love it so much.
44:33
video1177567933: So I write at the
44:35
Shannon Kelly-White: kitchen I love being out in the world.
44:36
video1177567933: love, I love feeling, you know, like I'm still part of the world while I'm writing.
44:39
video1177567933: And a lot of the writing actually happens when
44:41
Shannon Kelly-White: I'm not sitting at the computer.
44:43
Shannon Kelly-White: A lot of, a lot of
44:45
video1177567933: searching for the characters and, and running through the scenes will happen when I'm
44:49
Shannon Kelly-White: out walking the dogs or
44:50
video1177567933: always in the shower as well, which is annoying.
44:54
video1177567933: Um, or, or I'll hear someone
44:56
Shannon Kelly-White: s- in passing, I
44:57
video1177567933: hear
44:58
Shannon Kelly-White: someone say something
44:59
video1177567933: speak a
44:59
Shannon Kelly-White: a certain way, and it's funny how the ideas and inspiration can come to you, don't you
45:04
video1177567933: in these random moments?
45:06
video1177567933: So
45:06
Shannon Kelly-White: I just squeeze it in
45:08
video1177567933: everywhere and anywhere, pretty much.
45:10
Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
45:11
Madeleine Cleary: The, I mean, you sound a bit like a workaholic though, Shannon.
45:14
Madeleine Cleary: You make sure you also look after yourself.
45:16
Madeleine Cleary: If you're squeezing it in nights or full days, that's a lot, so look after yourself too.
45:21
video1177567933: Oh, but
45:22
Shannon Kelly-White: I love it.
45:22
Shannon Kelly-White: It's
45:22
video1177567933: like I'm friggin' working in a coal mine.
45:24
video1177567933: I'm, I'm writing, you know, fun stories, so it's, it's
45:28
Shannon Kelly-White: all good
45:28
video1177567933: good.
45:29
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, good on you.
45:30
Madeleine Cleary: That's amazing.
45:30
Madeleine Cleary: All right, and we're gonna finish how we always finish.
45:33
Madeleine Cleary: We always ask our guests to give us their top tip for writers.
45:37
Madeleine Cleary: So Shannon Kelly, what can you give us your top tip?
45:39
video1177567933: your top tip?
45:40
video1177567933: Well, I, I know everyone says read, read, read, but, so I'll say that really quickly.
45:43
video1177567933: Read heaps.
45:44
video1177567933: Um, but
45:44
Shannon Kelly-White: the other thing is
45:46
video1177567933: don't try to sound like anyone else.
45:48
video1177567933: Sound like you.
45:50
video1177567933: Lean into
45:50
Shannon Kelly-White: your voice.
45:52
Shannon Kelly-White: Try to be fearless.
45:53
video1177567933: to just run at it as hard as you can, and have the bravery to, to be as truthful as
46:00
Shannon Kelly-White: you can when you're telling your made-up story
46:02
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
46:03
Madeleine Cleary: That's a great tip.
46:04
Madeleine Cleary: Well done, Shannon.
46:05
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you for providing that., If you would like a
46:08
video1177567933: beautifully
46:09
Madeleine Cleary: written story about bushrangers, and amazing, incredible young, young girls and sisterhood and women, grab a copy of
46:18
video1177567933: King
46:19
Madeleine Cleary: in all bookshops now.
46:20
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you so much, Shannon, for joining us on the podcast.
46:23
Shannon Kelly-White: Thank you so
46:24
video1177567933: much.
46:24
video1177567933: I've had a ball.
46:25
Speaker: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
46:29
Speaker: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast