Latest / The Daily Writer / Getting Started as a Writer on Reedsy | Alice Sullivan

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Getting Started as a Writer on Reedsy | Alice Sullivan · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, one of the most common questions that people ask me about ghostwriting is where do I get clients?
0:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's a natural question, of course, because all writers who are doing client work would probably like to increase their income and have more consistent work.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: And my answer to those friends is sometimes a little bit disappointing because almost all of my clients have come to me via referrals from colleagues, friends, and previous clients.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that a great network takes time to build, but it's worth it because those relationships are the foundation for a client-based business over the long haul.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: However, there are some other sources for client work as well.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't just have to depend on your existing relationships and your business network.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: And one of the most popular sources for connecting with prospective clients is REITSE, which is a marketplace for writers, editors, marketers, and designers.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: So today I've asked my friend Alice Sullivan to join me for a conversation about RITSE since she's had a lot of success connecting with ghostwriting clients there over the last few years.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you a little bit about Alice.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: She's a number one Wall Street Journal best-selling ghostwriter, New York Times best-selling editor 11 times over, a collaborator and speaker.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: A natural-born storyteller, she's written 64 books and edited over 1,300 titles since 2001.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: In addition to the New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestsellers, other books have achieved Amazon bestseller status and won several awards, such as Reader's Favorite, Living Now Book Award, and Nashville's Best Local Children's Book Award.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: She's written for Forbes, Hay House, Thomas Nelson Publishers, which is owned by Harper Collins, Abingdon Press, Made for Grace Publishing, WorldNet Daily, Changing Lives Press, Carpenter's Sun Publishing, Clovercroft and Cayenne Literary Arts.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Alice specializes in memoir, self-help, personal growth, and leadership because she loves personal stories and practical advice.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: Her favorite projects challenge her point of view, expand her knowledge, and add meaning to her life.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Alice is not just a consummate storyteller and writer, she's also one of the most kind and down-to-earth people that I know.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: And in this conversation, I get to ask Alice all my burning questions about getting started on Readsy.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: We talk about her experience on Readsy, how to connect with clients and be successful there, her income from Readsy Projects, how to get started, and how the platform is different than going to clients directly.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: So if you're looking to expand your client base as a ghostwriter, an editor, or designer, you're going to really love this conversation and you're going to take a lot of practical stuff away from Alice's advice.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: I also want to make sure to mention that you can connect with Alice on AliceSullivan.com and there will be a link in the show notes.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: All right, here's my conversation with the wise and amazing Alice Sullivan.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Alice, it's so good to have you back here on the Profitable Rider Podcast.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: When you were a guest last time, I think this was called the Daily Rider Podcast.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: So we've switched up a little bit, but I continue to have really awesome guests, uh, present company included, yourself, of course.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Good to have you.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for wanting to talk to me again about books and all things writing.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Well, it was funny that um, you know, we sort of reconnect a little bit.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and of course, we're recording this on July 18th.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: This won't come out for two or three weeks.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, we reconnected via Honore Quarter's Empire Builder's Mastermind when you came to a dinner that she had for the group and we sort of got to chatting.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: So great idea on doing this uh ReadZ podcast.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: This is brilliant.
4:03
unknown: Yeah.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: But that that's pretty much in line with how you operate anyway.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Just smart, brilliant, lots of great ideas and all the things.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's dive into Read Z.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm so glad that you suggested this topic because I know a lot of writers who want to build their business.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Now they could be ghostwriters, freelancers of other kinds, editors, graphics people, whatever.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of them have never heard of Readsy, or if they have, they haven't gotten active on Readsy.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: So maybe this would be a good place to start in giving us kind of a rundown of what is Reads in the first place and why writing professionals should consider getting involved there.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: So ReadZ is a matchmaking platform for all things book publishing.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, as you mentioned, writers, editors, graphic designers.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Um it they are based in the UK, uh, and it's a great online platform where anybody can go and set up a profile that showcases your work.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: And then people who are searching for a writer, a ghost writer, um, somebody to help with podcasts, whatever they may be, they will go to Reed C and they will look at all the different profile profiles.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like online dating, but for both.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: I've never done online dating.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I've been married for a long time.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to that stuff.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Don't do it.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: You're like, Don't do it, don't it's trash.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, then let's let's say it's similar to shopping for your groceries online, right?
5:32
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So you know I'm looking for crackers.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: And so you type in crackers, and then here's all of your options.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: And so it's the same thing.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: I need an editor for my book.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: So I type in editors, and here are 50 editors, and they all have profiles, and I can click and see who do I like best.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: If I want somebody who physically lives closer to me, I can choose that.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: If I want somebody who has four or five star ratings, I can choose that.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's a great way to just search for people that you might be interested in working with.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: And then you as a consumer can pick, I think it's up to maybe five or six of these profiles and basically send a blanket message.
6:11
unknown: Okay.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Hey, my name is so-and-so.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm working on a book about XYZ.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, here's my word count, here's uh a rough estimate of when I want the book done.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, I would love to work with you.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Tell me your process.
6:25
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: And then so those of us on the professional side, we get this in our inbox and I can look at the person's profile and see is it even a book that I'm interested in?
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Is it the genre that I work on?
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Um if sometimes they'll list a budget, and if it's a budget that I think I can work with, I might continue that conversation.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, if not, I'll go ahead and hit decline and close that project on my end.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: But um, it's a really great service uh for people and you know, it's international.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: So uh it's just another helpful tool for people who are wanting to complete their books.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: How is it different than let's say a site like Upwork or Fiverr or those those kinds of places?
7:11
SPEAKER_01: Is it the idea that it's it's more of a curated platform?
7:14
SPEAKER_01: So not anybody can just automatically become a person whose services are listed there, correct?
7:21
SPEAKER_00: So I have not used Upwork or Fiverr from a professional side.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I've hired people on those.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what the requirements are to be on them.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: But it is true that to be a service provider on Readsy, you do have to be qualified.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: So you have to be able to prove.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, in my um case, I had to prove or be able to upload, I think at the time it was like four or five books that I worked on that were published.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: So I am who I say I am.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think now they even maybe check your LinkedIn.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: So there is an approval process, you can't just lie and have a profile.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you also, one of the downsides, I guess, is that you have to have enough work to meet their requirements.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: So if you've only worked on one book, right, you've got to wait until you get more things published to be able to have a profile.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's maybe an encouragement to anybody listening who has done maybe they haven't they haven't done their first book yet if they're a ghostwriter, or maybe they just have one or two projects, which is a great place to start.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: But that's an encouragement to keep keep that pipeline filled up, keep those projects coming in, finish those projects.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Because there is a sense, don't you think, in which the more it's kind of like life in general, where the more that you have, the more things you can attract.
8:40
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Which is frustrating at the beginning because it's like it's that that old thing of, well, I can't get credit if I don't have credit, but I don't have credit because I can't get credit, kind of a thing.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: So it was like a chicken and the egg thing a little bit at the beginning.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: So getting those first few projects under your belt can be really, really important.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: But worth it, I would say.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: I tell people sometimes, just kind of, I mean, it's not that you want to take on projects that you really hate or you don't want to undervalue yourself, but you know, at the beginning stages of your your professional journey, you can't always be super choosy about things and you just have to to do a few things just to get some experience.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: And I I've told this story before that early in my career as a freelancer, um, I was coming out of, you know, working traditional publishing, and I said yes to everything just to see what do I want to work on now as a freelancer.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: And the very first year um that I left my corporate job, you know, 365 days a year, I sent out 384 invoices because I said yes to everything from will you ghost write my book to hey, will you proofread this corporate email?
9:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to sound like an idiot.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: And then I'd send an invoice for$5.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I very quickly learned over those first few years to niche down.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: But at the start, yes, you're saying yes to everything to build your resume and see what what do you like, what do you not like, and you know, build your contact list.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's really, really important because you kind of have to get some things out of your system and figure out what are you good at?
10:13
SPEAKER_01: What kind of projects do you like working on?
10:15
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard to make those decisions without the data of you hack having actually done those things.
10:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I agree.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: So um let's dive into maybe some of the more granular stuff about Read Z.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So they take a percentage.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: So what whatever you get paid for something, they take a percentage and the the client actually pays a percentage, correct?
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Like how does all that work?
10:37
SPEAKER_00: So each side pays 10%.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's say I um you come to me and we're talking about a book that you want to work on, and I submit a bid for$30,000.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: So um on your end, they're gonna add 10%.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And then they take 10% from me.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: So they're taking 10% from both sides.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: Which is not too far off from if you were gonna work with another matchmaking agency like a literary agent or um any of these other placement companies.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: They they all take a percentage.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: So it's not um, it's not bad.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: It's just something that I have learned to let the client know because the first few times I would say, okay, the project's gonna be$50,000.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And then on their end, they would see a slightly different amount and they would think that I was trying to get more money out of them, that I was right uh dishonest.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And so now I tell people, by the way, just so you know, this is how they work.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, well, that's really no different than paying a referral fee.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, it's exactly it's exactly the same percentage anyway.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: So you're going to I try to teach people, hey, pay referral fees out if you possibly can, because your referral partner appreciates that, of course.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Everybody likes getting money, but it's also a way to to reward the source of the business, whatever that was.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: In this case, Readsy.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Because I didn't have to do any marketing.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: My marketing is that I have a profile.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's funny because sometimes we, you know, it's easy to kind of talk smack about, you know, big data or big corporations or whatever, like you know, Facebook or social media or Twitter or whatever.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: But man, if you're getting business from those entities, they're the people who took a risk and they built those, or Amazon or Apple or whatever, but somebody had to build those to build those things that are then providing us convenience or value or jobs or whatever.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: So they kind of deserve a cut of it.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: I know that's right.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Not cool to say probably these days, but no, I mean that's what Honore calls cost of business.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: It's it's marketing that I didn't have to do, so they're saving me, they're saving me time and they're making me money.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: So once uh well, let's let's maybe start here.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: So, and I know every project is different, but just speaking in generalities.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: So if somebody puts a puts a thing on Reedseed there looking for a ghostwriter, how many ghostwriters is that same project going to on average?
13:14
SPEAKER_01: Or or do you even have a way of sort of estimating that?
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you're able to select uh maybe four or five, maybe up to eight different ghostwriters at a time.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, okay.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: So you're not competing.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: You do have to look through the profiles.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: So you're not competing against 50 other people for the same kind of thing.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: No.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: And so basically then those that message goes to those people who the client, the potential client, has selected.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: You can either decline it or you can send them a message with more info.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: And then let's assume that they sign.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: What does that signing process look like?
13:51
SPEAKER_01: And how is money exchanged and how is the messaging going back and forth?
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Are you going through Readsy's system or your own system, or how does all that work?
13:58
SPEAKER_00: So ReadSy prefers that you keep everything in their system, which um can be frustrating at times, especially if you like me use either Google Docs or Dropbox or whatnot.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: But initially everything has to go through Readsy.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: So they have their own internal contracts.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, if you, as the service provider, have a separate contract you want to upload uh with different terms, you can do that on their platform.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but let's just say if it's it's it's a very easy project and you've agreed on the timeline and the word count and the price, um, I would type all that into their online platform and submit a bid.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: The person on the other side approves it.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: And then once they've approved it, they input their credit card information and I start getting paid according to that timeline we agreed upon.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and at that point for me is when I I send them an onboarding document to complete and I set up our first you know couple weeks of um interview calls, and then we just get going.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And then when you're submitting drafts of the book, chapters or whatever, uh, you're submitting that through the the Readsy portal until okay.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I will say I I do uh and they've slapped my hand a couple times, but there have been times where my client really prefers to work in Google Docs or in another platform.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Um and so if that's what the pro you know, if that's what they want, it is easier.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: So I'll do that.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: But I do try to submit like final drafts again through Readsy so there's a record of the work as well.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And so whatever timeline you set up, did are those payments going to you automatically according to a schedule, or does the client still have to initiate those in some way?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: No, um, when I submit all the information in their bid system, I'm also picking the dates.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh so I actually get to select Okay Um, do I want to be paid in three payments?
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Do I want to be paid in five?
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Do I want to be paid in ten?
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And I get I get to do all that on the calendar.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: And when they approve it and input their credit card information, it is automatic.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And it all goes through Stripe.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: So there is a fee.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so that's just something else to be aware of.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: In addition to the matchmaking fee, the you you also have to deal with a stripe fee, but still, um it's you know, still good money if you charge enough.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean that's and again, that's the cost of doing business, you know, like we're talking about, because even if you're sending invoices to a client direct, you're still gonna probably pay a fee.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: So it's you know, if you go through Sharp, or I guess if you're doing direct bank transfers or whatever, that's different.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: But but you're you're still gonna be paying the piper some hour, some way, most of the time.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: But I mean they have made it pretty easy to get paid, which is nice.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: And if for whatever reason I've had this happen a couple times where my client has uh a work thing come up or some health issues, I can make amendments to the contract and I can say we're gonna push the schedule out a little bit more, um, and I can I can do all that in the system and they can just approve it.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And so everything gets calibrated again.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: What percentage of the projects that you've done over the years have, and I think you mentioned this is before I hit record, you've been on Readsy since 2016, so you've been on there quite a while.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: What percentage of the projects that you that you've done, let's say since 2016, have come from Readsy versus word of mouth referral or other sources?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: That would be a great thing to look into.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: If I had to guess, I would say a fourth.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a fourth.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a fourth.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's surprising.
17:36
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think it was that much.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I also don't uh I don't take on a ton of projects a year anymore.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: When I first started, I said yes to everything, and now I try to be a little more selective.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: Um But yeah, I would say um when I was looking at my ReadZ profile, actually last year I did four projects through them.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow, and these were like full full four full-length books?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Two were full-length books.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: One was a proposal, and one was uh somebody who just wanted me to basically review and proofread some marketing content.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: So that was I got paid$67 for that one.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: But the bigger projects, you know, I got paid quite a bit.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: So uh and it's different every year.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Like when I first started in April of 2016, my rates were lower.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was saying yes to more.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: I was doing some author coaching as well, which I don't do anymore.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: So um I was taking on, you know, more projects at a f at a lower price point.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And now, nine years later, it's actually a hundred months as of this month.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: I calculated it.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: It it helped with the math.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm I'm doing bigger projects and fewer things.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: So now I only do ghostwriting, full proposals, and full manuscripts, and that's it.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: So this is not really directly related to Readsy, but more of a so a lot of people ask me about ghostwriting, they do you too.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I know.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: Um what what is involved in in raising your rates over the years?
19:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, what determines for you when you raise your rates?
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's you know, sometimes it's related to the length of the project, the complexity.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of factors that go into that, but but aside from those factors of the book, as you have raised your rates over the years, um, how do you make the decision to do that?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: And and what how do you get over the fear of raising your rates?
19:29
SPEAKER_01: Basically, is what I'm asking.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh because I think a lot of writers struggle with that.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, I think for me, it's come down to building confidence.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Um the very direct answer to your question is you are the person who decides when it's time to raise rates.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: There's nobody that's good.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, you can look at the EFA, which is the Editorial Freelancers Association, and they have some rates online that are notoriously low, even though they're right.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and you can ask your peers and uh ask around, you can do online search, and that will tell you a huge range of what people are um are paying for ghostwriting.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: But for me, I've done this 24 years now and I've had some really great successes.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I wanted to raise my rates uh basically so that I could take on fewer projects but make as much money or more and have more time to travel, because that is my biggest passion.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: So actually in January of this last year, I attended a um the Gathering of the Ghosts ghostwriting conference in New York, and I spoke on a panel about um marketing, actually.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: But the gentleman Oh my gosh, well, you'll have to go.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: It was the first year, they'll do it again.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: It's put on by Gotham Ghostwriters, which is a ghostwriting.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Gotham, yeah.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: I was I was on their list for a while.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, um, so it was really great.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: There were like 136 ghostwriters in one room.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: It was crazy.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh so it was it was really, really great.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: But there was a gentleman, um Michael, I forget his last name, but he was on the panel after me and he actually challenged everybody uh openly, which I thought was great.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: He said, Whatever you're charging, double it and add 20%.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: And that was a whole to-do, like the rest of the conference, because there were a lot of people who were like, How dare he do that?
21:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yes, let's do it.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Because once you talk to other people, you learn what other people are charging.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, for example, uh eight years into my freelance career, I was still charging what we were paying freelancers when I worked at a traditional Christian publishing house, which notoriously pays people than secular.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know any different, right?
21:47
SPEAKER_00: I just knew what I I was the one preparing the contracts because I was the managing editor.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but those were still the rates I was using eight years later.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And I finally one day asked my entertainment lawyer, Am I on par?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: With what I should be charging.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And she said, You're charging less than half than uh than you should be based on your years of experience.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh crap.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: I had no idea.
22:10
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: But I was also under the impression that if I talked about money, I would get my hand slapped because I'd had that happen twice in corporate America.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: So I was first in corporate publishing.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And one time somebody asked me what I made, and I told them what I made, and I got called into HR.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Now, I did not know at the time there's a law that says you're able to openly speak about rates, and I should not have gotten in trouble.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Um and then I I went to a healthcare company and did um clinical editing and writing for two years after that.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: And same thing happened.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Somebody asked me what I made, and I told them because why would I lie?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: And again, I got in trouble.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And so when I left corporate America to be a freelancer, I was still like, ooh, thou shalt not talk about money.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And it never occurred to me like nobody's gonna slap my hand.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: It's in my best interest to know how much other people are making so that I am charging appropriately.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, all that to say, it has taken me some time to feel comfortable talking about money.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: But now that I am, I'll tell anybody like raise your rates, raise them consistently.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: If you want to raise them every few books, if you want to raise them once a year, whatever that is.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, for me, there's still always a fear.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Like when I raise my rate to the next level, I always feel a little bit weird about it until the first person says yes.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like, I got this.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And then the next four or five books, I'm like, of course I am worth this much money.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I should raise it again.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's just it's what the market will bear, uh, to be honest.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: But it's also you have to have the experience to back up your rates.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: So if I were to say, I mean, we know that there, you know, there's some very famous ghostwriters that make a million dollars on a book now.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that I'll ever talk myself up to that level, but I hope so one day.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: But then when you read their their books, you know, Prince Harry's ghostwriter, for example.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think he got a seven-figure deal for that.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm I mean, I would be shocked.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: He got a million.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: He's also Andre Agassiz' memoirist.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, okay, obviously he has the street cred to pull that off.
24:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, it's and it's funny because like a million dollars, it sounds like a lot of money, and of course it is it is a substantial chunk of money.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: But then it's really not a massive amount once you consider, okay, he's gonna be paying a chunk of that in taxes.
24:36
unknown: Right.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: First of all.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: But then that's was spread out over probably what, three years that he worked, at least two years.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: It was two years.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I mean, that's but you're right, taxes, and he m he had to live.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Travel, he knows what else.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Travel.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay, he lived, uh, at least with Agassi, he moved to work with him.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: So like I don't know what his life were.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea if that was all paid.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: There's all sorts of other expenses.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a good living, right?
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good living, but it's not like oh, I'm living in like this gold plated mansion.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: I have a gold-plated toilet now.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like, I mean, I don't know.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It it just sort of seems like, hey, if you can if you can write for a celebrity at that level for a very wealthy person, I mean that that book is going to that's the representation of their life story.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: It's really valuable.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: It is.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: So good on them if they can if they can get seven figures for a deal.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: I hope you got royalties too.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you did.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: I sure hope so.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: That was a big book.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
25:42
unknown: Yeah.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: But so all that the pricing, like just I would say I actually practiced it.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I practiced having the conversation with another one of my writer friends to get over that fear.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: So my first time saying this new rate would not be with a cold call client, you know.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: So we would get on the Zoom call and we would practice, and I would screw up and curse and you know cry.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: And uh and eventually I felt a little bit more comfortable.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: And then we would also do this role-playing thing where you know, I would ask the price, or she would say the price, and I would give a couple of objections, like, why is it this?
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Can you give me a discount?
26:18
SPEAKER_00: So that's another thing you might want to practice is when they say anything about can I get a discount for XYZ or I've already written 20 pages in my journal.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Don't I get credit for that?
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Had that happened recently.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: So, but but in the moment, if you've never addressed that conversation with somebody, uh, I always feel a little off caught off guard and I'm a people pleaser.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Sure, let's give you credit for that.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Let me take$10,000 off because I'm sure those 20 pages are publishable as they are.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure they're wonderful.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: They're wonderful.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's just good to have those if you can practice, even if it's just you in a mirror a mirror being comfortable saying this is my new rate, and then not explaining it.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Let it be silent and let them process because if I keep talking, I'm gonna talk my own self out of it.
27:08
SPEAKER_03: Right.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, my price is usually this, but you seem really nice and you've got three kids and a dog, and you know, that's probably expensive, and not it's not gonna take away any work for me, but you know, you just want to shh say the price and then be quiet.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: And how how often does that happen where you quote your price to somebody and then they just they say, hey, that's way out of my budget, and they walk away?
27:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's a pretty frequent thing for ghosts.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: It seems like most of the time.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: And so a big part of this would be would be connecting with for all of us, a good lesson for all of us is connecting with the right type of clientele.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Who are in are in whatever price range we're at.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's a reason, and I come from the church world, I taught at a Christian college for many years, but there's a reason I don't ghostwrite for pastors.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Because they typically can't afford ghostwriting and and don't and or if they can, they're gonna make it seem like they can't.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: There there is sometimes a lot of deception going on in the faith-based world.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole other podcast.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: I know.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, we can talk about that next time.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Um because I don't do that anymore, but I have.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, but so the thing, you know, I did all this research on my own Readsy profile, but do you want do you want to hear some stats?
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Some math.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Let's hear some stats.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: I think that would be wonderful.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: So in case people are interested.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, so as I said, I started in April 2016.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: It's now July 2024.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly 100 months.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: So in a hundred months, nine years basically, um, I have now had 1,180 requests.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: That's an average of 11.8 per month.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: So like three a week, basically.
28:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And the majority of those uh are not even ones that um that are even in my genre.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's somebody who's I'm writing a children's book and I need an illustrator.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: So like they're just not maybe reading all of the profile pieces.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, or they don't know any better, whatever it may be.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: A large portion of the requests I get, I review and then I decline.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there are, you know, the second half, which is like, well, this sounds interesting.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, this is in my genre, so let me start a conversation.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: But the overwhelming majority of those, I will reach out and hi, my name is so-and-so, and you've read my profile, and this is really interesting.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Here's why I think I would be a good fit, and never hear anything back.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Never, never, never.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: That that completely baffles me.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: It really does.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, I I mean there are a million reasons, but I have to, it's not me, right?
29:51
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, somebody, maybe somebody gets cold feet and they are like, oh, maybe I'm not ready.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Or uh maybe they found another writer they want to talk to more than me and they just never think to respond.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: But a large portion of the requests that I respond to, I never hear back from.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: That really shocks me.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: It is, but so you have to the time investment that I talked about.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: If I take, if it takes between, you know, five minutes to pull myself away to, oh, I gotta read the email, let me check it, let me read it.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: I either decline it or I send off a quick, you know, message back, maybe five minutes tops, right?
30:32
SPEAKER_00: For the whole thing before I'm back to whatever my task was before.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, so here's what is fun to me, anyway, because I'm a weird nerd.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: So um let's say that let's say that each of those takes me 10 minutes max with all the other things, which it's not gonna take 10 minutes, but if it did, that would be the equivalent of 192 hours, which is eight days.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: Over nine years, though.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Over nine years.
30:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Still a lot, but when you space it out, it's not that much.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, but as I said, so of those 1180 requests, 27 have been yeses, and we've gone to contract.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: So pretty over nine years.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so a pretty small percentage of the messages translate into conversations which translate into actual paying projects.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: Which is kind of like real life anyway, in a way.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: It's I think it's a much higher percentage just because people are not like there's such a disconnect between people reading your profile and understanding what they even need and what you provide, uh, if they're not familiar with the book industry.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Um so yes, 27 yeses have resulted in over a half a million dollars, though.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: So$506,875.26.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: So like all of that, right.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's again, that's over nine years.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: And some years, of course, I made more than others, but I that is why I always say I think it's worth to have a pro worth it to have a profile.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Worth it to slog through the emails and just create a process for yourself.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: And so some of the things that I do to make it easier for myself.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Um I have a document on my desktop that's like just data that people usually ask for, or I can copy and paste.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Here's my process, here's you know, your book is in this word count, here's how much it's gonna cost, here's all the stuff.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: And so that way it might save me 30 seconds of time or a minute of time, but I have some information there that I can just pull from help populate those responses.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And then of course you make them, they all need to be unique, but uh, but some of the information you're gonna be sending the potential clients is gonna be the same.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: Create a folder, make it easier for yourself.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, and and don't take it personally because you know, 27 people said yes, that means 1,153 people either said no or I said no.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: It was just not a match.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: So you get really good at rejection, I will say.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: You picked somebody else.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Great.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Actually, now I mean I've always been kind um in my responses, but like when people take the time to respond and say, hey, I really enjoyed our conversation, but I'm going with somebody else.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, awesome, I'm your biggest cheerleader.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Great.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad to hear it.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: I hope it's wonderful.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: If you have any other questions, reach out.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm here.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Great, you know, I hope it goes well.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: So because I have no reason to be nasty.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: They they pick the right person and somebody else is gonna say yes down the line.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: But don't we all do that as consumers?
33:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we're we all buy things, we all hire people for stuff.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: I had a garage door put in last week.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Why did I go with one over the other one?
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, I had you know a list of reasons.
33:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, doesn't mean the other garage door people are bad people.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to go with this particular company.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: So we're we're all making choices.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the people, so uh but from the small percentage of people, you know, who contact me who we actually go to a conversation, as I said, the majority of those by far, hey, this is great, but I can't afford you.
34:21
SPEAKER_04: Cool.
34:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: So that is again, it's fine.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, every time that happens, it's a choice, right?
34:28
SPEAKER_00: I can go, do I want to lower my rates and try to get this person, or am I confident that somebody else is gonna come along and say yes?
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And there have been times where I've gone, this really sounds cool.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: I would love it, so I'll drop my price by$25,000, whatever.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and but the majority of the time I'm like, somebody else is gonna say yes, so I'm just gonna sit here.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to go through a whole project being resentful that you dropped your rate when you shouldn't have.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I have done that too, you know.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: You still do your I feel like you still do your best work.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm never going to take a resentment out on the physical book.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine doing that.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: So you still give your best work, but I'm just kind of crabby about it.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm thinking of like, oh, I could have bought one more vacation, or I could have like done this, uh, I could have bought this thing for my gardener, whatever it is, you know.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's just not it's not great.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And it should never come out in your communications with the client.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So they should never know.
35:29
unknown: Right.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: They think they got a great deal.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: But you just have to deal with like, darn, I took less.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: But then, but then again, it's still money.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: So, like, is it really a loss?
35:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: It's all a learning experience.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: You could be digging ditches or roofing, you know.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like Yeah.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes when I'm working on something, I feel like, oh, this is really difficult.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm using a lot of brain power, I'm exhausted.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not out there, you know, digging ditches.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So is this really that hard?
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think too, when you're a freelancer, you know, accepting that you have great flick flexibility and that you are your own boss.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, yes, I you know, as I said, there have been times where I really, really, really wanted to work with somebody and they had a tiny budget.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And like once a year, I or I I have in the in the past, I've said yes to like one project a year where I greatly lower my rates if it's a really great story.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Um but nobody's slapping my hand.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: It's me.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: I get to decide what I want to do with my rates, so it's fine.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to feel bad about it.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: I know that I'm providing great service to somebody who has who has a wonderful story and couldn't work with me otherwise.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: So it's still a win-win.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: I think you get to you you get to deal with your own thoughts around money and worth and time and all of that, and um just be accepting that every project is a little different.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to be rigid in your rates, that's okay.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to be flexible, that's okay too.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Before we wrap this up, um, let me ask you about because people ask me about this all the time, and I'm sure they do you also.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some benchmarks that I would say ghostwriters in their first I'm just gonna randomly select three years, their first three years of business.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like if somebody comes to you and says, Alice, I'm a beginning ghostwriter, I've not written my first book yet?
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Somebody wants to hire me to do let's say a 45,000-word book.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say a nonfiction book of some kind of business book.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Um maybe they've written their own book, they've got some writing experience, but this is their first client book project.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh what do you feel like that person should be charging as their first project?
37:51
SPEAKER_01: And what is what is a decent benchmark for somebody who's been in the game maybe three or four years?
37:58
SPEAKER_01: They are a professional ghostwriter, they've got a few books under the belt.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: What do you feel like is a good benchmark for that person in terms of what they should be charging?
38:06
SPEAKER_00: My goodness.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: All right, so I'm gonna give you two answers.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: And one is the answer that I gave people even three or four years ago, and then one is what I believe now.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: So Okay.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Years ago, uh, you know, somewhat recently, I really, really, really believed in the you really have to struggle and make it and crawl your way through and um you know, build your rates over time, um, because you need to earn your place in the industry.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I thought that.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: So, but years ago I would have said, you're a beginner ghostwriter, 45,000 words.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I think you should charge maybe$15,000,$15,000,$20,000, right?
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Today me goes, I just just charge$45,000, see if they say yes.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Because I have seen people do that.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: I've seen people do that and um and get the gig.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: And a friend of mine got her very first ghostwriting gig.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: This is a true story, and I'm a little ashamed of myself because I had that that previous thought, but she said, Hey, I this is my first potential gig.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: Now she had written on Medium and some other places, so she is a writer.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she was a great writer, but it was her first ghostwriting gig.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: She said, Here's the project.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: What do you think I should charge?
39:25
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, maybe$25,000,$30,000.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Thank God she did not listen to me.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: She charged$60,000 and she got it.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: And I was right, and and I was like, I was a little bit jealous.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I was like, shoot, my first ghostwriting gig, I got twelve hundred dollars.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: But then that was on me, like but it's my mindset that has kept me right from charging more money.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that you should have to struggle if you have great writing ability and you feel confident that you can charge whatever it is and that they can afford it.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: Why not go for it?
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Why not go for it?
40:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel do you feel like a ghostwriter has the obligation to tell the client that this is their first book if the client doesn't ask?
40:15
SPEAKER_00: I do.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: I do.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: So no, what I'm saying.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I feel that way because I just, you know, I don't know.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe you could um I mean, I don't know.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great question.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Why would you?
40:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: If they ask, if they ask outright, here's the thing.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't believe in lying.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: So if they ask outright, yeah, I think you should tell them the truth.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: You can say, no, this I'm I've actually never written a ghostwritten a full-length book, but I have written all these other things, you know, here are some writing samples, all that.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: If they don't ask, I don't think you have the obligation to say anything.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: If you have samples, because surely uh somewhere along this process, hopefully, you have writing samples and you can show this is my writing, you know, what I've done for other people.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: Um Because if you're going to if I'm going to a doctor, uh they've gone through medical school.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I guess that's different because that they've gone through medical school.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: But a doctor would not tell you, hey, you're my first patient.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: That'd be weird.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a great question.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, we may have to think about that.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Or we may I didn't with my first with my first client.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: They never asked, so I never volunteered that information.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: I had written a couple of my own books.
41:33
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: I'd written, you know, a thousand episodes worth of podcast show notes for people.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: I'd done lots of other freelance stuff.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: I was a really experienced writer.
41:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: In terms of that, but I had not done a full book for somebody.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: So I just I was like, well, they just never asked, so I never told them that was my first book.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't because I was nervous about it, I was completely confident.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: I just didn't want them to lose confidence in my ability to do right, right.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: And it turned out great.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's on the client a little bit to ask the question if they're concerned about that.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: I I I think most clients would assume that somebody would not be putting themselves out there as a ghostwriter if it was their like nobody ever assumes you're the first one.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: That is true.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I know you you probably don't have the time to talk about this, but I have uh spoken a couple times about what if it is your first time?
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you get the writing samples?
42:27
SPEAKER_00: How do you you said chicken and the egg, how do I get the writing samples to get the job if I you know, how do you even do that?
42:35
SPEAKER_00: So I mean there are ways to create writing samples so you have something.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: You can interview your friend, you know.
42:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Inter interview your wife and write two chapters about that so you have something.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: Just because you don't have to get you don't have to receive money for a sample to be considered a valid sample.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: So I always tell writers that they should, if you're a beginning ghostwriter, the best thing you can do is write your own book first.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Just write a short little book.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Short, it's really important that it's short and readable.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: So you have a proof of concept that you can author a book.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: Plus it's gonna help your business.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, write a book on something that you want to write more books about.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, potentially.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: So there's all kinds of creative ways to do that.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that was a really good question.
43:20
SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: And what about so do you think uh a dollar per word is a good benchmark for for professional ghostwriters who are they're maybe three or four years in?
43:31
SPEAKER_01: Then you raise your rates over time after that.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, I mean, from what I've seen, I think a dollar is for somebody who's experienced.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: Now, what does that mean?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: How many years you know do you have to be to be experienced?
43:46
SPEAKER_00: Um a dollar per word, depending on some people, is on the high end.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: But but if you are like I have written a Wall Street Journal bestseller and I've edited 11 New York Times bestsellers, so like I should be raising.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: My rates more.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, I try to charge two dollars a word now.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't always get it.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: But you know, and then and then it like I said, what's the limit?
44:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe one of the things that we're gonna do.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: There is a limit.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: It's it's who the client is and what you ask for, I guess.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that that's a whole other conversation about I've had people ask me this too, and I have also had to think about it.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Let's say I have a set rate.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: I have a set rate for all books, right?
44:25
SPEAKER_00: And then somebody comes to me and they are like an oil magnate, and I'm gonna have to travel and I'm gonna have to do all this stuff.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: The question is do you raise your rates if you know these people have a whole bunch of money?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know the answer to that.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: That's a that's a good ethical question.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: It is a good because yes, there's all all sorts of like things to consider.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: Are you traveling?
44:48
SPEAKER_00: Is it gonna be more work?
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Do you have to deal with uh a whole team of people and a handler or whatever?
44:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: But these are situations that you might encounter as a ghostwriter.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think every person has to individually go, how do I feel about that situation?
45:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: And then I guess there's a I don't know if I would call it going up a level because I'm not sure this is this means rising in importance necessarily, but there are some ghostwriters that let's say like Ken Abraham, who writes a ton of stuff.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: His name is almost uh these days, his name is almost always on books that he ghostwrites for people, typically memoirs.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: And they in it in essence almost become like their own industry.
45:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: It's like when you see a Ken Abraham book, you kind of know how it's gonna read, the style of it, etc.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Which is kind of cool.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, that works to his benefit because he has built such a name for himself over these how many decades?
45:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: He's probably been around for 40 years now, I would have to imagine.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the agents, the publishers, the clients all have a level of expectation.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they all get their piece too.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: They all get their pieces.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: You're dealing with publishers and agents.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: And so for him, having his name on the book is a is a bonus.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Whereas me, it's not really.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not gonna hurt the book in any way.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: But for example, like if I'm writing a book for a doctor, I'm not I'm not a PhD, so it's not gonna help really to have my name on the book.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: If they want to put it, that's great.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: But um, maybe one day, I don't know, maybe one day I'll want more of my books to have names on them, but it doesn't really bother me now.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: I have a new hobby where uh if there's a book that I like and and I think it's probably ghostwritten, which you know, any book by a celebrity or famous person is most of those are ghostwritten anyway, is I I try to discern who it was, and it's not difficult when you look at the acknowledgments.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: And I track that person down, and I I in fact I did this recently.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh I tell him, hey, I know you ghostwrit this book.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, I loved it.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: I thought you did great.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I did this with so Michael Richards, the guy who played Kramer on Seinfeld.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh I can't remember the name of his ghostwriter, but he and I listened to the audiobook, he mentioned his name, and shoot, I'm so sorry I can't remember who it was.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: He mentioned his name, and I was like, that's that's the ghostwriter right there, because of the way that he framed it.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: And so I looked him up on LinkedIn and shot out a message.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: I love the book, I thought it was great.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, it turns out he's a celebrity ghostwriter.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: And he was very appreciative, responded back immediately, and I was like, that's cool.
47:26
SPEAKER_01: That's just really cool.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:30
SPEAKER_01: So that that's my own little game that I play is find the ghostwriter and tell him I'm gonna go.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Find the ghostwriter.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: Because so many of those people, they never hear anything because they're they're in the background.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and gosh, I mean, I don't know if you experienced this, but early in my ghostwriting career, I was in my how old was I, mid-20s, right?
47:52
SPEAKER_00: And trying to build my resume, and I really, really, really, really wanted my name on everything because I thought, how am I gonna build a resume if I can't put my name on anything or even be in the acknowledgments?
48:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I really like it hurt my heart to put all these books out and then see them out in the world and be like, oh, I get no recognition.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: And that has dulled over the years.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if it has for everybody or for you know, has for you how many books you've been on.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: Um now, I mean, of course, I want to be in the acknowledgments.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: What I really want is to be able to put the book on my website and my resume.
48:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
48:30
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: And I've even written uh I've even written that into my contract now where um that's interesting.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: That's fine, but I do either get a mention in the acknowledgments.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to say what it's for, you just say my name.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: Or or and I get to put it on my website and use it on my resume.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's genius.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because other I mean very few people um say no to that.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: Because they're not flat out saying that I was the ghostwriter.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: And on my own website, if you go to my website and you see latest titles, it just says these are the books I've worked on recently.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: I could have been a consultant, and in fact, in some of the acknowledgments, Alice Sullivan editorial consultant.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: What does that even mean?
49:18
SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: It's a made-up term.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Right?
49:21
SPEAKER_01: Insiders know what it means.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: But I want to be on building that resume of like, you know, that I'm putting out books every year.
49:30
SPEAKER_01: I think it can be helpful uh in some cases.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: In some cases, I at least my perspective is it it doesn't matter most of the time.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: For the um in fact, I've I've told you this before, I wouldn't have had the Faith of Elvis book if not for you, introducing me to the agent and all that.
49:45
SPEAKER_04: Cheers, cheers.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: That was one where I in in a moment of, you know, these moments for me are kind of rare, but in in a moment of insight, we were kind of in negotiations for that book, and and they were really in a hurry to find a writer because there had been a I don't think I'm violating anything by saying this, um, there had been a writer on the project, um, but then that didn't work out.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: And that happens sometimes on projects, and they had a deadline for the book and they needed it completed really, really fast.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: And um, I had a blast doing the project, but when we were in negotiations, I just kind of mentioned off-handedly, I said, you know, what do you guys think about my name being on the book?
50:23
SPEAKER_01: The ghostwriter's name was on Billy Stanley's last book.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: And um, and if I can publicly talk about the book, I think I would love to help with the marketing as much as I can.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: Not that anybody cares that my name is on there, but it would allow me to talk publicly about it.
50:40
unknown: Right.
50:41
SPEAKER_01: And I would really I would love the honor of doing that.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that would be really fun.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: And so they were like, okay, cool.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Like they didn't really care.
50:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: So it worked out good.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: But it that's that's been helpful for me because that was with uh that was with HarperCollins.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's a book I always give prospective clients.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: Um so man, if you can take those opportunities to build up your resume a little bit, that could be helpful.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could do a whole other other podcast though on what happens when things go wrong and you do get fired.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: Gosh.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: That's that can be painful, or it can be a blessing, depending on I feel like they're always a little bit painful at first, but then they're always a blessing in my experience.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: And I've been fired three times.
51:22
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: They were not happy.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: I was not happy.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but like looking back now, thank God.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Um I think it all works out.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: But but also I have been I've been the cleanup ghostwriter uh probably three or four times where I'm the second or even the third ghostwriter to finish a project.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes there's just it just doesn't work out, and it can be for a multitude of reasons.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, sure I leaked my wounds and was whiny about it for a couple weeks.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: But then, but then it was fine, you know?
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it happens, it really does happen.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: Like the longer I'm in this industry, it just nothing surprises me anymore.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: And it and truly, if I'm not the right fit for the book, even if I think I am, but the client doesn't or the agent doesn't or whatever, they have every right to go, you know, I think we're gonna go with somebody else, even if it's in the middle of the project.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: It happens.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: It's like dating.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, ghostwriting for people is it's a very intimate and emotionally engaged process.
52:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not like, you know, having your garage to replace where they come in for a few hours and do the thing, and then you're not in each other's lives ever again.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: It's not the way it works with books.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you are very like emotionally intimate with somebody for months.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: And if that isn't going well or if there's just one thing off, or whatever it could be, it it just happens and it's okay.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: It's part of it.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's hard when you know, when you get fired, or when clients are upset with you about something, regardless of whether or not you think they were justified in it.
52:59
unknown: Right.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: I had a client last fall who was really just for a little short book.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, I did this was like a 15,000 little short business book kind of a deal.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: And the client was did the draft, did what I thought was a good job on it.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh they were very upset and angry.
53:17
SPEAKER_01: It did not represent what they felt like the book was supposed to be, yada yada.
53:20
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, okay, apparently I I I took a crazy left turn at Albuquerque somewhere in this process.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: So and I don't normally do this kind of thing, but I redid the whole book at no charge.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: Because I felt like that was the right thing to do, and it was very meticulous to make sure this represented exactly what they wanted.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: We worked really hard on redoing the outline, they still didn't like it.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: So they ended up like rewriting big chunks of the book themselves.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: But I learned something really interesting from that process, which was sometimes you work with somebody who is they simply cannot let somebody else write for them.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: They they have to be in the words, and some sometimes that's how people are, and there's nothing you can do to change that impulse with them.
54:02
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
54:03
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: It is okay, it is okay.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: You know what I do, and you may you may have already figured this out.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: I keep, again, on my desktop, just cluttered with files, but I know where everything is.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: But on my desktop, I have a file of nice things, and it's all the testimonials, all the endorsements, all the things that people have said, you know, that are nice about me on their social media posts.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: And I keep that so that when stuff like that happens, I can remind myself that I'm not a trash human.
54:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: And that like I actually do really good work.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: This one situation just didn't work out.
54:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:40
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: Plus, that's also good to get that stuff for your website.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: You always want to keep updated testimonials.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: If somebody, you know, you're emailing with a client and they say something wonderful about the writing.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Can I use this?
54:52
SPEAKER_00: This is beautiful.
54:54
SPEAKER_00: Capture all of that so that you can use it, but also so that you remind yourself that you are um an expert and you do a great job.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: And just because one person isn't happy, it doesn't mean that's right.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's still big Hollywood movies who the director is fired part way through, the actor is replaced.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Tons of examples of that.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: It just happens.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes writers have fragile egos.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: What?
55:22
SPEAKER_00: Can you believe that?
55:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, surely.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: I've done heard that.
55:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: It is true.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely true.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: I know.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: But you didn't like my ambassador piece on the first draft.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: It's just like it's it's all about their story, but it's still such a personal process because I am the one who's writing their story, and I want so badly for them to love it.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: And if they don't love it, then I feel crushed.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: I had a client a couple weeks ago.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're kind of in the hot and heavy phase of the book draft.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a very complex project.
55:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm doing three chapters a week.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't normally work at that pace, but this one is kind of a unique we we did interviews for like four or five months.
56:10
SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: So it took a while to really figure out what this book was.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: It's a very complex interweaving of several different things.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I sent uh three chapters off a couple weeks ago.
56:23
SPEAKER_01: And they hated one of the chapters, like really hated one of the chapters.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and then a section of another chapter, they really dislike that, and they're like, that doesn't fit there.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: It was the family thing.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to make things word with my family.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: Um and I was like, you know, you're the boss.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't take this stuff personally.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: Now, in fact, I did take it a little personally.
56:44
SPEAKER_01: I did tell them that it's hard not to.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you spend you spend six or seven hours crafting a 3,500-word chapter of transcripts, and you work really hard on it, and you think, oh, they're gonna love this, and then they hate it.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just part of the best thing I've ever done.
56:58
SPEAKER_00: I should want bullets there.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and but we did find some ways to use that material in some a couple of the chapters.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: So it's all fine.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: It's just words.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can always make more words.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: You can always make more words for the gig.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm slitting open my wrists and bleeding, you know.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: It's just I'm just typing.
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Don't do that, because then you would get, you know, you'd have to buy like a new mouse and everything.
57:19
SPEAKER_00: Don't do that.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't want to do that.
57:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I use Apple products, they're they're expensive enough as it is.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to replace them.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: I'd do that.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: Alice, this has been fun.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it always is.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
57:30
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
57:31
SPEAKER_01: This is um I've learned a lot.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh I always love chatting with you.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: It's we need to do this on a more regular basis.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah because you're so wise with all this, and you have you've experienced a lot of things as a ghostwriter, and I think people can really benefit from what you have to share.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for your insights on ghostwriting and pricing and readsy, and most of all, just being a really cool person.
57:52
unknown: Thank you.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh above all.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: So, how can people find you on the internets?
57:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, what you're all about they can find my readsy profile on Readsy.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but my website is AliceSulliban.com.
58:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll have that in the show notes.
58:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
58:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, LinkedIn, I think it's Alice Wrights, but I can't confirm that.
58:15
unknown: Okay.
58:15
SPEAKER_04: I'll do that.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't know for sure.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean I think like if people are are wanting to know about Readsy, the biggest takeaway is develop a process and stick with it because the longer you stick with it, I think the more it will pay off.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: Like most things in life that are worthwhile.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, too, and I know we we're going over time, but because people can leave you five-star reviews and whatever, you know, that's that's how they rank you.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: The longer you're on, the more projects you have, the more reviews, the higher you rank.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: So it really is a numbers game.
58:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
58:55
SPEAKER_00: So even if you start today on Readsy, in the it might be slow, your first couple years.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: In five years, in ten years, I guarantee you're going to be making more money and you'll have you know more people reaching out.
59:09
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:10
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for that insight.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, anytime.
59:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, until next time, I'm sure we will meet again here on the podcast or elsewhere.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate it.
59:21
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
59:21
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay, my pleasure.
59:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation as much as I did.
59:27
SPEAKER_01: I took a ton of notes and I so appreciated Alice taking time to share her wisdom about Readsy here on this episode.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get set up on Readsy as just another potential pathway for connecting with prospective ghostwriting clients.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: And if you do ghostwriting, editing, design, or book marketing, or any kind of services for authors, I highly recommend that you get set up on a Readsy2 and that you use Alice's tips for success and uh becoming a more profitable and financially successful writer that she's given us in this episode to help you to expand your potential client base.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do that, as I mentioned, and I'm super excited uh just to see what happens and see where things take us there.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: So again, many thanks to Alice for taking time to be a guest on today's episode.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: Make sure to connect with her at aliceullivan.com.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_01: As always, thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.