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Episode #78 - The Write-Up and the Complaint · HR Spot

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, welcome back to HR Spot.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Linda Michaels, along with Gary Nye, and we took a week off because I was sick as a dog.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we're back at it.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And Gary, what are we going to talk about today?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're talking about one of those uncomfortable situations that can make a business owner's stomach drop, blood pressure rise.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Put them through the roof.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about the write-up and the following complaint.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when discipline turns into a bullying or harassment claim.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: They could.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you write up an employee for a legitimate performance issue.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's attendance.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're missing deadlines.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there have been multiple conversations and nothing is changing.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then the famous thing happens, Gary.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: The employee says, My manager's bullying me.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm being harassed.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're making it a hostile work environment.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen this way too many times, right?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And immediately the owner calls one of us and says, You've got to be kidding me.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We finally hold this person accountable and now they're making a complaint.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where things can go sideways quickly if you're not prepared, if you don't know what to do, because the complaint might be a reaction to the write-up and it might be completely legitimate, or both might be actually true.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, the employee could have a real performance problem and a legitimate concern about how their manager's treating them.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what we're going to talk about today.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you handle both without creating an even bigger problem?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the first mistake that we see is deciding the complaint isn't real.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, once you just already make up your mind, right?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then the owner calls us with the situation, and what's the first thing that they usually say?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Something like what?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: This employee is just trying to get out of the write-up.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then my answer back to them is maybe, but we don't know that yet.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can't take that for granted, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And just say, well, that's what it is.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the key.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know yet.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't decide how the story ends before you even started documenting the facts.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's the critical piece is when when an employee brings a complaint forward, you have to conduct a good faith investigation, right?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I understand my owners get frustrated.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: They've been dealing with this employee's performance, they finally take action, suddenly there's a complaint against the manager.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It feels retaliatory on the employee's part.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: But as a leader, you have to separate your frustration from your responsibility.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and don't panic.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, in the other direction, you have to take a moment and think about it for a second.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes an owner hears the word harassment or bullying or formal complaint.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's my favorite.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I want to file a formal complaint.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the owner immediately says, okay, forget the write-up.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just throw it in the garbage can and move on.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we can't do that either, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: So a complaint does not automatically erase a legitimate performance issue.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now we have two issues, and they both need to be handled appropriately.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So next we're going to talk about bullying, harassment, or is it just management?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and this is also where the terminology can get confusing to uh a non-HR business owner who, you know, who's just making widgets all the time, and that's what they know.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: An employee might say, my manager is bullying me, but what does that really mean?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And is it illegal?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Help me out here, Linda.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to find out what happened instead of getting hung up on the word that they used.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a difference between tough management, bullying, and unlawful harassment.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: A manager saying you've missed three deadlines and this needs to improve is not automatic bullying.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's call management.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I teach this in some of the harassment and anti-harassment trainings, is it's not illegal to be a jerk, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you're holding people accountable, that's part of the job.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you may be sensitive, and I get it, some people are, but that doesn't mean it's bullying or harassment.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So even if the employee doesn't like hearing it, you can still hold them accountable.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, that's their behavior that may not necessarily rise to unlawful harassment, but it's still terrible leadership.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yelling at employees, humiliating someone in front of the team, constant sarcasm, singling somebody out.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: You may ultimately determine that it isn't lawful, unlawful harassment, but that doesn't mean you ignore the behavior.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: We we've talked about this many times, Linda.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: People get promoted because they're great individual contributors, but they've never had the training on how to talk to people, when to talk to people, and how to express their performance concerns, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, after all that, then then you have harassment connected to a protected characteristic, which raises a different level of concern.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a whole different ballgame.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the employees don't need to know the legal terminology.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to walk into your office and perfectly explain the kind of complaint they're making.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Your job, our job, is to listen and find out what actually happened.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about one of the biggest risks, the word retaliation.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, right.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I think timing matters a lot on all this stuff too.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there's another issue that that the owners often overlook, and that is the retaliation of what comes next.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's where, you know, I'm tongue-tied.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: That is where I really want business owners to stop and pay attention.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you investigate the employee's complaint and ultimately determine the manager did not engage in harassment.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean you can now treat the employee differently because they complained.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and retaliation isn't just, you know, the the big one, the firing somebody.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: It could be small things like suddenly changing their schedule, cutting their hours, transferring them, excluding them from meetings that they normally attended, or giving them an undesirable assignment, making them do the cruddy work, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or suddenly scrutinizing everything they do when you weren't doing that before, right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're now you're holding them accountable for every tiny little thing.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Those things aren't necessarily good.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the flip side where making a complaint doesn't give an employee a lifetime of job protection.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: We we or you still can manage the performance and you can still document the problems.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, depending on the circumstances, an employee who has made a complaint can still be terminated for legitimate reasons.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's right, Linda.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I tell we've talked about it.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: My favorite, you know what it is, is documentation, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you documented the performance or had the conversations beforehand and have those, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Have those documented, and then they make a claim and maybe you do another performance, and they now they're saying retaliation.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you show the pattern, it's a good thing, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you'd better be able to answer a very important question.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Would we be making the same decision if the employee had never complained?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you can answer that, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's the question that you just said that's gonna tell you a lot, right?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the slow method, Gary.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I want I want to give everybody something practical that they can remember when this happens because the natural reaction is to move quick, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually want you to slow down.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, what does slow stand for, Gary?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right, slow S.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: You need to stop and listen.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: You need to listen to what they're saying, document it, but you need to stop and listen.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: L is login.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: You need to log this down.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: You start taking notes right away.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Put dates and times.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: O is the outside eyes, and w is work both tracks.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: You need to work both of them.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: You need to work the complaint, what you wrote down for their performance.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: You need to track both of those things and look into it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's break this down a little bit.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let's do it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: You said stop and listen.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the first thing is probably the the hardest, right?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because we we want to react right away.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't argue, don't get into a debate with them and like no, this is why we no no no stop.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Keep your mouth shut for a little, don't argue, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And don't defend the manager.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if the employee is saying, my manager's harassing me, that's not the time to say, Oh, John would never do that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or is this because you got written up yesterday?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be in reactionary mode, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Just pause.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're thinking it, that's one thing, but you don't need to blurt out.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and especially if you're thinking that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, I want you to say, thank you for bringing this to my attention.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I want to understand your concerns.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk me through what has been happening?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then listen.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then I want you to ask for examples.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: When did this happen?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who was there?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Was anything said in writing?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any text messages or emails?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: All the who, what, where, when, why, how stuff.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, you're gathering all the facts.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting all the information that you need.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, what else?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ask him again, what else?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: What else is there?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're not reaching a conclusion already.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're just taking notes, finding out what happened.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So next, the L.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Log it, Gary.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Log it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Document the complaint.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Document, document, document.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting tired of that word, Gary.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: How many people don't do it though?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to make sure we use the employee's actual words as much as possible.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do this in my investigations where I watch the employee roll their eyes.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I write, write that down in my notes, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So don't turn my manager embarrasses me in front of everybody into employee alleges hostile work environment.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Those aren't necessarily the same thing.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Document what they actually told you: dates, examples, witnesses, emails, texts, etc.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and this is something I learned from from many legal seminars, is you write them down exactly what they said, and you can write this person said quotation marks and quotation marks.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if it ever becomes discoverable for anything, it's not you writing down and something that needs to be interpreted.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly what they said.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Follow up it in writing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a record that the concern was received and is being addressed, right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's always good to give them the we take this seriously, we're looking into it.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Acknowledge that they sent you this concern and you're looking into it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the documentation protects everybody involved, not just the employee.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: It it protects the employee, the manager, the company, and anybody else.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what HR is for, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need to protect all the parties.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So O, outside eyes.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: What the heck is that, Gary?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good one.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: The O for outside eyes.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: This one seems obvious, but maybe apparently it isn't always obvious as an O, but the manager who's being accused should not absolutely 100% not investigate the complaint against themselves.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's another one is if there's some kind of connection with the person being investigated, you shouldn't do it then either.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: If the HR or the manager or someone maybe who's underneath the manager, they shouldn't be the one looking into it either.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please don't do that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let the manager look and do the investigation.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's just no.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big no.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And depending on the size of the company and the seriousness of the allegations, you may need someone neutral from HR.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You may need an outside HR professional like us, or you might need an uh an investigator or employment lawyer.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is it for it to be independent, it's for it to have neutrality.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You want someone who isn't emotionally invested in proving that one side is either side is right.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be independent.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you're not investigating to prove the employee wrong, and you're not investigating to prove the manager wrong.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're trying to determine what happened.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, last one is W.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Work both tracks.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the most important part for me.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Working both tracks.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you imagine two railroad tracks running next to each other, track one is the employee performance issue, track two is the employee's complaint.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the complaint doesn't erase the performance problem.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I like what you said earlier.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just because the person made a complaint, that doesn't mean they're protected for 90 days and they now they can do whatever the heck they want because you can't track this, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the performance problem doesn't always answer the complaint, they're separate.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So investigate the complaint fairly and at the same time continuing to manage legitimate performance issues consistently.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Not harder because they complain, so now you're looking into them more.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's not right either.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You still need to do your uh due diligence and you can track the same things you were tracking before.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we don't want you to go softer because you're afraid they complained.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the same is the goal.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So now what?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're on, excuse me.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now what do you say to the manager at this point?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of key, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you just, hey, this person filed a complaint against you?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the manager for a minute because they're often pretty rattled when they hear there's a complaint against them.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, they're gonna go through all the motions, right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna get angry, they're gonna get scared, and sometimes their first instinct is to confront the employee, and that can never happen.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you tell them, Linda?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would say something like you know, Joe manager and an employee has raised a concern.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to look into it fairly.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a conclusion about what happened while we review it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: I need you to continue treating the employee consistently and professionally and then be very, very specific.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tell them, do not confront the employee about the complaint, do not discuss it with the rest of the team, do not change the employee schedule or responsibilities because you're upset.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and don't suddenly start documenting every little thing they've ever done wrong.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to react like that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: What was the first one again?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Slow down.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Take a breath.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's another possible outcome that owners and leaders need to understand.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: The investigation might determine there was no unlawful harassment, but still uncover a management problem.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: A manager that doesn't know what they're doing or doesn't know how to communicate, or maybe it's just being mean, which isn't unlawful, but hey, they could probably do it better, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the manager is sarcastic, maybe they embarrass people publicly, maybe they play favorites, maybe their communication style is creating unnecessary conflict.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And just because something doesn't rise to the level of unlawful harassment doesn't mean it's acceptable leadership.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's where a leader or the owner needs to step up and think this is a coaching opportunity.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is the ability to get better, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or depending on the circumstances, a performance issue for the manager, accountability has to go both ways.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, Linda, let's let's get into the leadership test.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is where we can really kind of zoom out, take the bigger picture.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't only about handling complaints.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more to it.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's really a test of your leadership systems as a whole.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, completely agree.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a business owner listening today, ask yourself a few questions.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: If one of your employees complained about their manager tomorrow, who would investigate it?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have an do you have an actual answer?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: If not, we'll figure it out.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who is the person, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who who's gonna do it?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another one, Gary.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Would your last three employee write-ups look reasonable if someone outside of your company read them?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good one.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I get remind people all the time these are legal documents.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just imagine that these are gonna go in front of a judge or lawyer.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have to keep that in mind when you're writing them, and it's always good to have HRIs take a look at it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are your managers enforcing expectations consistently and clearly?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or does the employee they like get three chances while the employee maybe that they don't like gets written up on the spot immediately in front of everybody?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And do you do your managers truly understand what retaliation is?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because retaliation isn't just terminating someone, it can show up in all the little ways someone gets treated differently after they speak up.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: These are systems you want to put in place before the complaint happens.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a good point, Linda.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just throw this out there before I forget, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like your managers maybe don't understand retaliation, but I think going back from the beginning, do the managers understand when someone's making uh I don't want to say a claim, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're stating that they feel harassed early on, but it's not a quote unquote formal complaint, you still have to do something about it, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: If they say, hey, that person is is making comments and blah blah blah, because I'm a woman or I'm this age or I'm this, those are things you need to look into.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just br forget about them and say that the person didn't do it and then continue with your performance, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because then the timing's off if you're not documenting these things.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so in closing, I just had to throw that out there because people don't understand how to react if someone's making even if it's a little side comment about feeling harassed, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's still something you need to look into.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So so in closing, let's bring it back to where we started again, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You write up an employee, the next day they make a complaint about their manager.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You don't panic, you don't dismiss it, and you don't automatically undo the discipline.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we said slow down, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And don't dismiss it, like we were just saying.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: If they made some kind of little comment, you need to look into it, you need to be aware.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Stop and listen, log it, get outside eyes if necessary, and work both tracks.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: The employee's complaint deserves a fair review, the performance issue deserves to be managed appropriately, and both things can exist at the same time.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you're about to take another disciplinary step, especially, especially if you're gonna terminate someone, have someone neutral look at the situation and then ask, would we still be doing this if the employee had never complained?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if the answer is clearly yes, your documentation supports supports it, that's important.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're hesitating, that's your sign.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Slow down and get some guidance.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So of course, our podcast is general information and obviously not legal advice.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're not lawyers, but every situation has its own facts.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're dealing with something like this and you'd rather make sure your managers know what to do before it happens, this is what we do.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that I think that's the important part.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of just touches on the last five minutes of what we talked about.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Before it happens, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Before it happens, are they aware of what could be construed as harassment or a complaint or how to talk to someone, how to give a performance evaluation, or or document the performance pieces.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Those are things before it happens that you need to be aware of because it's a lot easier to build the right process before you're in the middle of this problem.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, Gary, that's all we have for today.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I I want to tell our listeners like this is what we are trained to do.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: We we provide a lot of manager training, and we want to get in there proactively to help equip your managers so people know how to deal with this kind of stuff.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So call us, uh, email us, lynda at or Gary at azhrhub.com, visit our website, book an appointment.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: You can click the little box in our calendar link and make an appointment.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for your time today, and uh we will catch you on another episode of HR Spot.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, the ounce of prevention is worth way more than spending the legal cost later.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Can't say it enough.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everybody.