Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #39 - Nature Inspired Tiny Homes & Wicking Bed Gardening | Paul Jones [Elements Of Creation]

Transcript

#39 - Nature Inspired Tiny Homes & Wicking Bed Gardening | Paul Jones [Elements Of Creation] · The Shed Organics Show

• 0:00
  Hey everybody, what is going on? Welcome back to another episode
• 0:03
  of the Shared Organic Show. This episode we are joined by
• 0:08
  Paul Jones from Elements of Creation and Paul and I met at
• 0:14
  the Queensland Garden Show this year.
• 0:16
  He had a bit of a stall there and was talking on one of the
• 0:19
  stages to do with things around food security, working beds and
• 0:24
  ways of growing healthy food yourself at home and really
• 0:28
  maximizing what we're doing and making the most of some of the
• 0:32
  technologies that are out there, including these wicking bed
• 0:35
  systems. So we go into wicking beds today
• 0:38
  a lot and their ability to help you grow healthy food to keep
• 0:41
  the soil healthy and the plants in the optimal moisture range.
• 0:46
  But we also touch on tiny homes and Paul's ability to create and
• 0:51
  manufacture spaces for clients and for people about using tiny
• 0:56
  homes and and spaces that and more minimalist in their
• 1:00
  approach, but also really connected in their design, in
• 1:03
  their creative design. As we, we talk about to
• 1:07
  integrate this indoor outdoor space and this ability to have
• 1:10
  somewhat of a mobile dwelling that you can then take around
• 1:14
  and live in and really enjoy a minimal connected natural
• 1:18
  lifestyle. So this was really fascinating
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  for me. I, I find a lot of inspiration
• 1:24
  in the tiny house movement and seeing so many of these creative
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  places come to fruition. So talking to somebody who's
• 1:30
  heavily involved with that was very exciting for me.
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  So all things tiny homes and all things wicking systems, we're in
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  for an absolute treat with this conversation.
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  So without further ado, this is Paul Jones from Elements of
• 1:44
  Creation. What inspired elements of
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  creation, I guess was coming from a background of being in
• 2:06
  the construction industry. We had a window company that we
• 2:09
  built up over 20 years with architectural joinery.
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  And it was really seeing the government regulation and the
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  building codes and the effects that I were having on the cost
• 2:23
  of building materials and building a house.
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  And funny enough, with, with our factory, I would be out there at
• 2:30
  the beach collecting driftwood and bringing it back and, and
• 2:33
  building furniture on the side because I just, I love timber.
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  And I came to the point where I wanted to really pursue what I
• 2:40
  was passionate about and create something that that didn't have
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  to be a, just a small box that someone lived in as far as a
• 2:52
  tiny house, but it could be something very creative,
• 2:55
  artistic and almost like something that was luxurious.
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  Because it's a small footprint. I could put the extra quality
• 3:05
  into it to make it feel quite luxurious as well as opening it
• 3:09
  up with with doors to an outdoor greened space.
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  And it really is combining those two elements, whether it's a
• 3:21
  house with timber and steel or stone to plants and nature.
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  And tying those two in is really what creates the the feel and
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  the privacy. That could be anywhere.
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  And it could be in a suburban setting, it could be in a rural
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  setting. But so yeah, that was that was
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  what my passion sort of started. And it's like everything gets
• 3:41
  sort of one thing leads to another and it's evolved so.
• 3:44
  Yeah, that's so right. And I love how you've done the
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  reclaiming of timber and materials because as you say,
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  it's crazy how much material we're bringing in new these days
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  all the time. And houses are going down and
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  like people are taking houses down.
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  And, and what happens to some of the materials there that are
• 4:08
  actually still in good condition?
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  Some of these older looking designs and things that you can
• 4:15
  then give a little bit of a sand down and a repaint or a stain
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  and it looks incredible, looks just as new and you can create
• 4:23
  these things out of reclaimed stuff.
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  Is that the excitement for you as well?
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  Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, a lot of these
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  old materials have got a story to them, and they don't
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  necessarily have to be old buildings.
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  They could just be dead trees that have still got good timber
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  on them or different types of, you know, materials that have
• 4:49
  come from different places that have a story to them.
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  So there's so many aspects that can actually, you know, make it
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  a completely different experience to using, you know,
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  some of these new materials and some of these new materials,
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  some of the chemicals and things that are in them is something
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  that concerns me. And, you know, if you buy a new
• 5:09
  car, you can kind of smell, you know, in a hot, sunny day, some
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  of the plastics that are coming in, you know, out of these
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  things. So, yeah, being pretty aware of
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  the chemicals and I guess with the building history that
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  they're trying to keep costs down.
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  So they're trying to find cheaper ways to manufacture
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  things. And whenever you're you're,
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  you're trying to do that, there's always a danger that
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  you're going to compromise. And that's, that's my concern.
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  And yeah. I feel like that's exactly right
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  because they are going for a cheaper way.
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  It's not built to last anymore. These are, you know, they're,
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  they're using different types of woods that are going to break
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  down. They're not using these
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  hardwoods that will just last forever and ever and and go
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  through the the effort to make something that's long lasting
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  and and impressionable for a long time.
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  Do you? Well, like my wife and I stay
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  in, well, really like to stay in a lot of these types of kind of
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  places where you've got someone set up a little tiny home or
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  it's a a reclaimed old building or it's a shipping container
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  that's been modified or something like this, where it's
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  got this really quirky feel, but it's also very homely and it's
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  got it's very contained and it's, it's experience, you know
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  what I mean? There's everything that you
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  need, but on a small scale and in a done in a really quaint way
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  in terms of its design. And it's we're not going for
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  these modern looking things necessarily.
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  We're always going for something that just has a bit of
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  character. And I feel like that kind of
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  word character is something that really sums up a lot of the
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  projects that you you do. Is that something that you're
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  aiming for? It, it, it is absolutely.
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  And you know, I see your photography and, and black and
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  white used to be, you know, quite interesting for people to
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  look at because it was just painting with painting with
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  light basically. So it wasn't what you, you don't
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  see in, in, in, in black and white, But when you see
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  something different. So anything where you seeing
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  someone's creativity come to life is interesting to to
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  humans, it's because they're seeing someone, a human has
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  created something which is unique and different, a little
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  bit the opposite to AI. And the more we see technology
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  and AI, the more people are wanting, I think are going to
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  want to crave creativity. Yeah.
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  Are you a creative person? Is this your creative outlet?
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  I think we all are. I actually think we all are.
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  I think the schooling system actually slowly tries to take
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  that out of us, but that's something that I think I'm quite
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  passionate about, is actually inspiring the next generation to
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  tap into their creativity because they are more gifted
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  than they actually realize. And yeah, and it just means
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  having a go. You're right, and I'll relate
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  this to music because that's something I understand, is that
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  a lot of people tell me or are quick to tell me that they don't
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  have a musical bone in their body and they wish they could be
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  creative. And I tend to share your idea on
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  that where I sort of say, I, I believe everyone has creativity
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  because I would say to them, oh, you know, OK, you are a chef or
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  you're a blah, blah, blah, whatever it is.
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  And I said there are elements using this word now, the
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  elements of creation in what you do in your, in your job and in
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  your career. So there are ways of being
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  creative even in a non creative job or, or Ave.
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  So people are finding that in a lot of different ways, but
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  you're now able to use your creativity to create these
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  projects for people and create wonderful spaces and things like
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  that. So are you, are you sourcing
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  everything from start to finish? So if I like, what are clients
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  coming to you with most of the time and what are the, what's a
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  sort of a general middle of the road average job for you that
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  you're undertaking in that regard?
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  So, yeah, so that has sort of changed.
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  But so I was manufacturing timber joinery as well as
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  aluminium. And there's still a degree of
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  creativity in in that because I could work with a client with a
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  design or a concept to open up an entertaining area to the
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  outside in a way that they may not have thought about.
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  So, so I'll be manufacturing new products, but my passion has
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  really come to the point where I actually need to focus on what
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  I'm passionate about creating and then putting it out there
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  and finding someone who wants it.
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  So for example, I came to the realization I just need to go
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  and build the ultimate tiny house that I would, I would love
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  to live in and take it to the, you know, the tiny house Expo.
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  And sure enough, there will be someone who goes, wow, I'm, I'm
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  willing to pay, you know, I need to buy that because that,
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  that's, that's unique and I've never seen it before.
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  So I think sometimes we can get caught up in the fear of, oh,
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  I've got to find someone who wants to Commission me to do
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  something. But I've, I actually believe
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  that just pursue what you're passionate about and you'll find
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  someone who, who wants that. And to some degree there's a
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  freedom because you're not having to be constrained with
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  what somebody else wants you. You're really pursuing what
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  you're, you like and what you'll get at good at.
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  And ultimately that will be worth more than than anything
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  else, I think. That makes a lot of sense.
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  You're almost like what that made me think of straight away
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  is that when you're talking to someone initially and saying,
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  like I can create you, your, your dream tiny home or whatever
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  it might be, we're thinking in, in the theory, we're thinking
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  in, in ideas, and there's not something physical and tangible
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  in front of people. But if it's like almost saying,
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  I will paint you an artwork and you'll like, what do you kind of
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  want it to be like? There's no, you can't see it at
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  the end, But if someone says, Hey, look, this is my artwork,
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  someone will go, wow, that's amazing.
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  And they'll, you know, be really interested because they can see
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  that vision in in real life. Are you then finding that people
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  want to come and take what you've created and and you're
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  replicating or you're trying to just do something similar, make
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  modifications to then what their desires are as well?
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  Yeah, so we had a lot of interest when we built the last
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  couple of tiny houses and it made me realise, well, how can
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  we do this more, more effectively where people do have
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  some choice about how they, you know, maybe have the interior
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  finished off without losing ourself in, in what we're gifted
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  at creating. So I guess offering people a, a,
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  a series of different, you know, styles and keeping it simple to
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  those styles and, and they can also add some of their own
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  creativity, you know, to some finishes.
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  But yeah, being careful not to get too caught up in, in chasing
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  what someone else wants and, and, and losing yourself in that
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  because, you know, money can sometimes, you know, cause us
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  to, to compromise what, what our values are or what we're trying
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  to achieve. And there's a balance.
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  I think there's a balance between how can we help people
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  and, and how can we stay within our creative gifting and, and,
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  and, and do that well. So a bit like with running
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  podcasts, I guess is, is that you you set the format of how
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  this this this is run and what you would like to talk about
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  and, and give me a bit of freedom to the other person to
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  add their their story. Yeah.
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  Yeah, I, I see. So you're sure of sharing that,
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  but you're giving them a little bit of creative license to kind
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  of have some ideas, but you're setting the framework.
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  Do you think that that's dictated sometimes by the
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  materials as well or something that you're trying to feature in
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  particular? And is there anything that
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  stands out to you as something that you've really had to work
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  hard on trying to, you know, build something around?
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  Yes. So the most obvious thought
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  comes to mind is we had a small staircase going to the, to the
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  bedroom and in a tiny house. And we, it was an unusual
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  staircase in the sense that how do we make this safe with a
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  handrail without taking away that kind of creativity?
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  And, and so we thought, well, I'll find a, a, a limb of a
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  tree, a branch that sort of suits that shape.
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  And that's where your creativity really gets, you know,
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  stretched. So you know, you're out there
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  looking for a, a good quality piece of a good species of
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  timber that's not going to split or crack and finding an old limb
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  that has been dead for a long time is already seasoned.
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  So you've got a piece of wood that season.
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  And it's amazing. This old piece of wood is in the
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  Bush. The moment you clean it up and
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  you sand it and you, you Polish it and oil it, it comes to life.
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  And then you make some steel staunchness to hold it and
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  secure it. So it's strong.
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  And you've got something that actually has got such a wow
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  factor that it's, it's, it's almost the thing that sells the
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  tiny house, you know, So that's how valuable your creativity is.
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  Yeah, yeah. And it, it must be so difficult
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  because nature doesn't do really do straight lines, does it?
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  Or say how do you, how are you trying to work?
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  And is is every job so different because of the different angles
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  and curvature of all these different Timbers and things or?
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  Yeah, so most of the the work I do with with the building is
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  using new materials and and then creating something unique or
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  artistic from that using that where you add that touch of
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  artistic or curved, you know, you curve something, it adds a
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  dimension of interest to it straight away.
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  And so I think that's where tiny houses really lend themselves to
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  the ability to explore that creativity.
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  Because you're not under the same building codes as a as a
• 16:01
  house. And so you've got a whole lot
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  more creative license without making it dangerous, but it it's
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  just you've got a whole lot more freedom and.
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  So, yeah, and just to double click on that just to get a
• 16:16
  little bit of clarity for myself and maybe for others is what do
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  you mean by the fact that you're not under the same constraints?
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  Can you talk a little bit about just the basics in in the
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  building codes between a fixed stand alone house versus what
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  these tiny homes are classified under?
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  Yeah, so a tiny house would be class if it's on wheels, would
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  be classified under a caravan. It's been a bit of a difficult
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  process for councils because they don't move particularly
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  quickly and changing with the time.
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  So they're, they're trying to play catch up to figure out how
• 16:51
  they how they can regulate. Councils love to regulate
• 16:55
  things, but how they can regulate a new industry and the
• 16:57
  tiny house industry has taken off so quickly and evolved so
• 17:01
  quickly that and the beauty about and the reason why it's
• 17:05
  taken off is because people have got their creative license to be
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  able to create something. So you don't, you're not
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  constrained, for example, on the the the head height to a
• 17:17
  bathroom. So for a tiny house, the overall
• 17:20
  height of a tiny house to transport on a road is a certain
• 17:23
  height. And if you take the standard
• 17:27
  head height of a of a house and made it 2 Storey, it wouldn't
• 17:31
  fit within that. But you can have a bathroom
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  that's just above a fairly tall person's head and, and, and it's
• 17:40
  still quite functional, but it's, it wouldn't make the
• 17:43
  building codes. So there's lots of little things
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  like that. For example, the handwriting I
• 17:47
  did on the staircase, it wouldn't meet building codes in
• 17:51
  a house because of the height of the stair treads to go up to.
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  So you, you're working with a small footprints, you need to be
• 18:00
  able to step up those stairs to get to a, a second level you
• 18:04
  want, you don't want to take up, as you know, a lot of footprint
• 18:08
  and and liveable space. So you're thinking outside the
• 18:11
  box and how you can do that. And it's making it interesting.
• 18:14
  It may not be the most user friendly staircase for elderly
• 18:18
  people, but for for for young people, it's, it's a bit of fun.
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  Kids love it. Yeah, I bet they do.
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  And it's, it is fun. It feels like a bit of a like a
• 18:27
  little playground almost at some stage.
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  But do you find that like this could be very similar with
• 18:34
  houses in terms of the creativity use, but do you feel
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  like the regulations are killing a bit of the creativity and are
• 18:40
  they, do you see that happening with the tiny home industry as
• 18:45
  well? Yes, so it was.
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  It's interesting because the, the Queensland government had a,
• 18:53
  a body of different tiny house builders that they brought
• 18:55
  together to try to come up with a series of codes that would
• 19:01
  sort of regulate to some degree the tiny health industry, which
• 19:04
  I guess is, is good that they're involving the builders of tiny
• 19:08
  houses to, to come up with those solutions.
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  The danger is that it starts becoming over regulation and
• 19:17
  again and then and stifles that and there's a lot of fear
• 19:21
  around, you know, tiny houses because of people hear stories
• 19:25
  of, of, of councils. But the reality is that most
• 19:28
  people within council are trying to find ways for their kids to
• 19:31
  live or, or looking for other forms of current accommodation.
• 19:35
  So I've had many people within councils talk to me about how
• 19:39
  they could do something on their property.
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  So. What do you think it is about
• 19:43
  the tiny home that's so desirable at the moment?
• 19:46
  Is it something like a a move to simplicity?
• 19:49
  Is it the affordability? Is it a bit or probably a bit of
• 19:53
  everything? I think it's a bit of
• 19:55
  everything. And I, I, I think that the
• 19:58
  younger generation, you might be able to speak to this more than
• 20:00
  me, but they, they don't want to be tied to a huge mortgage and,
• 20:05
  and they want freedom. They want to be able to travel,
• 20:07
  they want to be able to do things.
• 20:10
  And I think the tiny house gives the ability to have a huge
• 20:13
  amount of freedom, financial freedom, not to be locked into a
• 20:16
  mortgage. You can still buy a block of
• 20:18
  land and and and have a much. You know, a much better
• 20:23
  lifestyle with a block of land and a tiny house off grid.
• 20:26
  And the other significant difference with a tiny house is
• 20:30
  with technology today and, and with solar and with composting
• 20:34
  toilets. You can locate that tiny house
• 20:37
  anywhere in a beautiful setting by a by a Creek, by a river.
• 20:42
  And in the event of a extreme weather event like a flood, you
• 20:45
  can relocate it out of that that zone.
• 20:48
  And a classic example is Byron Bay recently, you know, a few
• 20:51
  years ago saw that flooding and and apparently there was a a
• 20:55
  mass exodus of tiny houses just on the highway as this happened.
• 20:59
  And that can't be done with the of the permanent dwelling.
• 21:02
  So. That's a really good point.
• 21:04
  I didn't even really think about that.
• 21:06
  But it does make it so mobile and it's off grid obviously most
• 21:09
  of the time isn't it because you can't be plugged into the whole
• 21:13
  system if if you're not following the regulations?
• 21:16
  That's what I understand at least.
• 21:18
  Yeah. Is that right?
• 21:19
  Yeah, So right. That's that's right.
• 21:21
  Yeah. OK.
• 21:23
  And then the. Yeah.
• 21:25
  So just to add my two cents to that, I feel like every person
• 21:32
  doesn't want to be tied to a large mortgage.
• 21:34
  And I recently saw this thing, I don't know whether you saw it as
• 21:38
  well, but it came up and it was a clip from the 1950s of
• 21:43
  interviewing this fella in in Brisbane, I think it was.
• 21:46
  And he was, he had a family of six kids, him and his wife, and
• 21:51
  they bought a house for $9000. And it was like a house for all
• 21:59
  of them for for eight people, nothing like massive, but it was
• 22:03
  a $9000 house. And he was on a 80 thousand.
• 22:11
  I think he was a fairly, fairly well off gentleman at the time,
• 22:13
  $80,000 a year income. And that's just like that.
• 22:18
  That's crazy to think that in that time frame.
• 22:20
  I know it's been roughly sort of 50-60 years since then, but
• 22:25
  we're now looking at at least 10 times our yearly income for a
• 22:31
  house. And that's not necessarily going
• 22:34
  to get you anything crazy special these days.
• 22:37
  You might even be looking at a one bedroom apartment in
• 22:40
  somewhere outside the city for that kind of price.
• 22:43
  And we're facing this difficulty as younger generations.
• 22:49
  It's the hardest it's ever been to be able to fully secure your
• 22:52
  own piece of property and, and land because of that gap.
• 22:56
  So I feel like this tiny home revolution almost is, is exactly
• 23:01
  that a bit of a revolution against this housing
• 23:04
  affordability and the the capitalist materialist style
• 23:11
  lifestyle of just having so many things and needing so many
• 23:14
  things and being connected to everything is that are you
• 23:19
  finding that more and more people are just wanting to get
• 23:23
  rid of all of this craziness and go back to that simplicity in a
• 23:28
  tiny home space? Absolutely.
• 23:31
  It's actually been, it's actually been quite significant
• 23:35
  since COVID actually. And I was involved with Tiny
• 23:41
  House before COVID. But I think COVID was a real
• 23:44
  wake up call for so many people and so many levels.
• 23:47
  And it's funny because I'm down in NSW now and I wasn't, wasn't
• 23:52
  Queensland and on the Gold Coast there.
• 23:55
  But since I've been down NSW and, and just doing some
• 23:58
  building work in Sydney and talking to people, the, the
• 24:03
  number of people that that sold up and moved and bought some
• 24:07
  acreage or, or just moved out of Sydney where they and came to a
• 24:11
  rural area. I think people instinctively
• 24:15
  felt that when things go pear shaped, you don't want to be in
• 24:19
  a city. You want to be somewhere where
• 24:21
  you can be a little bit more self-sufficient.
• 24:24
  And I get this living off grid, tiny houses, permacultural, that
• 24:30
  sort of thing is it is something that's appealing to a lot more
• 24:34
  people. And although they may not fully
• 24:37
  know how to do it, there's certainly a big shift
• 24:39
  demographically to put yourself in a position where you can
• 24:45
  start to learn how to do this. So yeah.
• 24:48
  Yeah, that's that's definitely a good point.
• 24:50
  So that's, that's only one sort of element of the creation that
• 24:56
  you bring to to people's lifestyle.
• 24:59
  So tell me about now the other parts around the tiny house.
• 25:04
  So you're not only setting up the home itself, but you're, as
• 25:08
  you mentioned and alluded to earlier, trying to create this
• 25:11
  experience, this place where you've got this connection
• 25:14
  between the simplicity of the tiny home but also nature and
• 25:18
  being outdoors. How are you thinking about
• 25:22
  trying to connect your tiny home to the outdoors, and what are
• 25:27
  some of the techniques and things that you're using to
• 25:30
  really open that up? Yeah, that's, that's a good
• 25:34
  question, Jordan. So when I first started tiny
• 25:37
  houses, I was conscious that I, I wanted to be able to grow
• 25:43
  some, some veggies. But my challenge was is how, how
• 25:48
  do I grow? Because I was having quite a lot
• 25:51
  and I think how, how can I look after these veggies?
• 25:55
  Because I know that you've got to keep watering them.
• 25:57
  So, and I came across a guy who had had actually developed a, a
• 26:03
  system, an Australian guy who developed his system and he was
• 26:08
  a sort of into permaculture and he had develop something that
• 26:11
  would make it easier to be able to do this.
• 26:14
  And, and I sort of got onto that thinking, well, this is going to
• 26:17
  be perfect for tiny houses and I can do it in a way where I can
• 26:21
  transport the gardens along with the tiny house, you know, So
• 26:26
  that's how I got started. And I was thinking it was all
• 26:28
  about just saving water when I started.
• 26:30
  But there's, there's so much around living off grid and being
• 26:35
  connected to nature and creating the tiny house or there any
• 26:40
  living space where it's opened and it's open plan to that
• 26:44
  nature just brings it all together and it and it creates
• 26:49
  the IT does. I think the outdoors and the and
• 26:52
  the plants and the, the ecosystem you create around the
• 26:57
  tiny house has more to do with the, the feel you that you're
• 27:01
  creating that anything else. And you almost order, I've found
• 27:06
  is that anytime staying in a tiny House of of sorts, you, it
• 27:12
  becomes part of your living space, doesn't it, that outdoor
• 27:15
  area. And if it's somewhat open plan
• 27:18
  where you kind of just open the doors up and then you've got
• 27:21
  this bit of a courtyard or some seating area and some gardens,
• 27:24
  it feels like it's not so tiny anymore.
• 27:27
  It's this connected indoor outdoor space.
• 27:30
  And I presume that's quite deliberate.
• 27:33
  Yeah, it absolutely. And it's funny because I've got
• 27:35
  a bit of a passion for the Bush and, and, and camping and things
• 27:39
  like that. And you know, whenever we're
• 27:42
  feeling stressed, we want to go into nature.
• 27:44
  We won't want to go into a forest, go for a Bush walk.
• 27:47
  And there's something about being immersed in nature which
• 27:50
  induces this calm emotion or feeling.
• 27:55
  And, you know, you might have a really stressful day, but you go
• 27:58
  and sit in this beautiful setting, garden setting where
• 28:02
  you're surrounded by food and it's something that feels just.
• 28:07
  And there's a, a thing of security as well.
• 28:09
  You've got food around you, you know, So there's a whole whole
• 28:14
  lot around that. And.
• 28:17
  Yeah. Yeah, the, the feel of just
• 28:19
  being able to walk out there and see all of these flourishing
• 28:22
  vegetables. Was that the, the, the thought
• 28:26
  trying to bring those two things together, the world's of tiny
• 28:29
  homes and then the world's of, of gardening and eating your
• 28:32
  fresh produce and things like this?
• 28:34
  Is that why the focus on things like kitchen gardens and that
• 28:38
  with the tiny homes? Yeah, so when I first started
• 28:42
  Tony Homes, I I met Faye who started the Tawny House Expo and
• 28:48
  we Scott chatting, she's running to periculture well as well.
• 28:51
  And we were just chatting about the problems of affordability of
• 28:55
  homes and about lots of things with the next generation of, you
• 28:59
  know, kids. And she made a comment which
• 29:02
  really struck me and it stuck with me.
• 29:04
  And she said, you know, if we can teach people to build their
• 29:07
  own homes and grow their own food, the security that the
• 29:12
  personal satisfaction and security that comes from being
• 29:17
  able to do those two things, you're no longer bound by.
• 29:22
  And I think it's a lot of fear out there, the next generation
• 29:24
  of fearful of things that are happening around the world, but
• 29:27
  we're actually in control of a lot more than we realize.
• 29:30
  And when we take that control, there's a, there's a, there's a
• 29:35
  whole nother level of a satisfaction and fulfillment
• 29:40
  that comes from that. So yeah.
• 29:41
  It really does. And then it, it's often said
• 29:45
  that when your basic needs are met, you then have the capacity
• 29:50
  to go and think about other people and the world and, and
• 29:54
  how you might contribute to that.
• 29:56
  When it's, when you're worried about a roof over your head or
• 30:00
  food on the table, you don't have time to think about the
• 30:03
  health of the soil or the blah, blah, blah.
• 30:05
  Like all of these other things that that we want to, to try and
• 30:09
  help. But when you've got the security
• 30:11
  of knowing that you've got a roof over your head that you
• 30:14
  then can fix or build or move or whatever you need to do, as well
• 30:18
  as the gardens that you can grow and supply food and water and
• 30:21
  all of this. You then have time to think
• 30:24
  about solving the world's problems and turning your your
• 30:27
  sort of worries to the world and seeing how you can help and
• 30:30
  contribute, which I think is a really important thing that
• 30:33
  you're alluding to there. Let's move into that sort of
• 30:40
  space with the gardens now. And what gardens are you
• 30:45
  focusing on creating for people, not just in tiny homes, but in,
• 30:50
  in general? And I'll, I'll give you a bit of
• 30:52
  context into what, how I'm thinking with this because
• 30:54
  specifically, you know, we, we met each other at the Queensland
• 30:58
  Garden show, which people will be able to go and see the, the
• 31:01
  little vlog. I had a little bit of you in
• 31:03
  there and you were showcasing a lot of these wicking bed style
• 31:09
  garden beds and, and designs. And I'm not sure whether they're
• 31:13
  the ones that you can see behind you or not, whether they're
• 31:16
  yours or not, but they're the. Hey, guys, really quickly
• 31:19
  jumping in. I just want to remind you, if
• 31:21
  you are not subscribed to this show, that is the number one
• 31:24
  thing that you can do to show me your support.
• 31:27
  So if you're finding value from this conversation and you're
• 31:29
  deeply engaged, I would love you to hit the follow or subscribe
• 31:33
  button. All right.
• 31:34
  Back to the show. These systems are very
• 31:36
  beautiful. They're they're very nice
• 31:38
  looking garden beds and things and they do have this ability to
• 31:41
  have this wicking system inbuilt in them, right.
• 31:45
  So can you talk to me about the wicking system in general, why
• 31:49
  you like it and why you think that it's a good choice?
• 31:53
  I mean, you alluded to it a little bit before about the
• 31:56
  saving water and the convenience of moving and things, but can
• 31:59
  you refer to a little bit more about that?
• 32:01
  Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
• 32:03
  Jordan. And I can, I can tell just by
• 32:06
  watching some of your previous podcasts that you're really
• 32:08
  passionate about soil and building soil biology, correct.
• 32:11
  And when I first got involved with the gardens, I thought it
• 32:16
  was about saving water. And it is, it saves about 85% of
• 32:20
  the water using different types of weakening systems.
• 32:24
  But the real, the, the real revelation for me personally, I
• 32:30
  was going on a bit of a regenerative farming, you know,
• 32:37
  focus where I was really being quite passionate about building
• 32:40
  solar biology and the importance of biology.
• 32:43
  And, and so when I got involved in the wicking system, I started
• 32:48
  to meet lots of people in permaculture and, you know, some
• 32:53
  Tropic farming and all sorts of different spaces and just
• 32:56
  private individuals which were really passionate about doing
• 33:01
  soul biology and explaining so much about it.
• 33:04
  And then I started watching YouTube videos around the world
• 33:07
  of people that are just, you know, doing amazing things
• 33:10
  around this. And I thought, well, there was
• 33:14
  something that really resonated with me and it made me realize
• 33:18
  that, you know, again, going back to COVID, the health of our
• 33:24
  planet really comes down to the soil biology.
• 33:27
  And in fact, to fix the environmental problems, the
• 33:30
  answer is literally in house. It is that simple.
• 33:33
  And, and you know, the mental health problems we have the
• 33:37
  answer's in our soil, it's actually in the garden.
• 33:40
  And all these solutions are right there.
• 33:42
  And I think so many people are, you know, seeing all these
• 33:46
  problems, but we need to be focusing on solutions because we
• 33:50
  can turn this, all these problems around incredibly
• 33:53
  quickly just with, with, with soil.
• 33:56
  So I already got involved with, with the wicking system to, you
• 33:59
  know, I was in the building industry and we make good money
• 34:02
  in the building industry. So to go to gardening, I'm like,
• 34:06
  there's not a lot of money to be made here for me because I don't
• 34:08
  know a lot about gardening a bit like, you know, maybe some other
• 34:11
  people that have started. But I, I thought, well, I'm
• 34:14
  passionate about it. I'm going to do this anyway.
• 34:17
  And, and it really didn't happen because of the money.
• 34:21
  It was more because I was really passionate about growing healthy
• 34:23
  food and being a pastry chef by trade, I understood that flavour
• 34:28
  is directly related to nutrient density.
• 34:31
  And my passion was, well, how can I make something so nutrient
• 34:36
  dense that the flavours are so great that the food will taste,
• 34:41
  you know, amazing. So that was sort of part of my,
• 34:44
  my passion. And, but the, as I've gone down
• 34:48
  this, this path of, and it's nothing new.
• 34:51
  I mean, a weakness system is, is basically using capillary action
• 34:55
  and which is the movement of water up through soil.
• 34:58
  And it's a bit like kerosene Lantern where you've got oil
• 35:02
  moving up that Wick. It's a wicking system.
• 35:05
  And but what I have come to discover is that, you know, lots
• 35:09
  of people have been doing wicking in the past using gravel
• 35:12
  and Geo fabric and or, or pipes, irrigation pipes under the
• 35:18
  gravel. But I was coming to realize that
• 35:21
  there was lots of inherent problems with the way people
• 35:24
  were doing it and how they were doing it and different people to
• 35:27
  get different results. Initially most people would get
• 35:30
  really good results from their wicking beds.
• 35:34
  And Sophie Thompson was a was probably one of the biggest
• 35:37
  advocates for wicking beds on Gardening Australia and, and she
• 35:40
  would talk about the same thing as people would get great
• 35:42
  results. Then over time there would be
• 35:46
  problems and things like anaerobic problems where the
• 35:49
  soil was starting to go acidic, plants were starting to die.
• 35:54
  And so that was why they developed these commercial type
• 36:02
  wicking systems. And the one I'm particularly
• 36:04
  interested in is the is the water UPS system, which is an
• 36:07
  Australian made product designed and manufactured here from
• 36:11
  recycled plastic. And the guy who designed and
• 36:15
  vented it, a guy called Vince, he started a property up near
• 36:19
  Byron Bay. And he, again, like me, he was
• 36:21
  just passionate about showing people how you can use this to
• 36:26
  change your, your, you're growing how to grow food easier
• 36:31
  than ever before. And part of that is I thought it
• 36:35
  was a little about saving water, but in actual fact, it was
• 36:39
  actually more to do with providing consistent moisture to
• 36:43
  the solubology that you've already built.
• 36:45
  So you've, you've created some really good compost.
• 36:48
  Well, any, if you've got a handful of compost, it's, it's,
• 36:52
  it's like you've got a handful of billions of living microbes.
• 36:58
  And, you know, I think in a plate of soil has got more
• 37:03
  microbes than there are human beings on, on earth.
• 37:05
  And there's a lot more going on in the soil than we realized.
• 37:08
  So that living, anything living needs oxygen and water to to
• 37:13
  thrive and to grow. So a weakening system provides
• 37:17
  consistent moisture where that biology can multiply and and
• 37:21
  what happens is it tends to break down the organic matter in
• 37:24
  the soil a lot quicker, which is turning to nutrients, which is
• 37:28
  feeding the plants, which is the reason why you're getting sort
• 37:31
  of 5060, sometimes 70% healthier plant growth from a wiki system.
• 37:37
  So this was developed to provide perfect drainage.
• 37:40
  So you don't get root bound, roots don't work their way
• 37:44
  through the gravel and become root bound is wicking from the
• 37:48
  very bottom of the wicking cells.
• 37:50
  There's no gravel in there. It's all holding a lot more
• 37:54
  water. And funny enough, one of the
• 37:56
  biggest concerns for people when we started was was, you know,
• 38:04
  will the soil, will the will the water eventually sort of become
• 38:08
  anaerobic? How is it going to drain?
• 38:11
  Will it become root bound? So the difference between what
• 38:15
  we're doing with a commercial wicking system is that it's got
• 38:19
  an air layer, so the roots won't grow in mid air and they air
• 38:26
  prune themselves. That's the, the horticultural
• 38:28
  process called air pruning. And so I actually recently just
• 38:31
  dug out a, a tree that was three years inside a big wicking
• 38:34
  planter and I'm putting it into the ground and I filmed
• 38:38
  underneath and it was clean as a whistle.
• 38:40
  There was no sediment. So we don't use Geo fabric and
• 38:43
  it was actually Arno King who speaks to the Queensland Garden
• 38:45
  Expo. Who, who, who told me that, you
• 38:48
  know, they've just discovered that geofabric actually becomes
• 38:53
  water impervious over a period of time as the sand and the
• 38:56
  sediment blocks up those pores. So by not having any geofabric
• 39:00
  you allow that that perfect drainage and, and and with the
• 39:04
  small holes in the bottom of the wicking cell, you don't actually
• 39:06
  get, you know, very minimal material falls through those
• 39:11
  holes. So it's not enough to cause it
• 39:12
  to go in aerobic. That's really clever because
• 39:14
  that is really important that that exchange of the carbon
• 39:17
  dioxide and the oxygen coming through the soil.
• 39:20
  And, and there's so many interesting points that you just
• 39:23
  said that I want to touch on the, the I've trialled a few
• 39:27
  different automatic watering systems, everything from sort of
• 39:30
  drip irrigation to two sort of wicking systems.
• 39:36
  And then like automatic like water sources where they
• 39:43
  basically have the sourcer and it kind of just sits in the
• 39:45
  water and it will keep pumping into that and things like this.
• 39:48
  But I've found various different problems, like you say, with,
• 39:52
  with the different methods. What I like about the wicking
• 39:56
  system, and maybe you can talk to your thoughts on this a
• 39:59
  little bit, is that it gives the plant the option of.
• 40:05
  Having clean water without any nutrients in it versus any water
• 40:10
  that's coming through the soil layer and picking up some of the
• 40:14
  nutrients from the compost or the, the mulch layer and things
• 40:17
  like this. Because I, I very much work with
• 40:20
  trying to mimic the natural systems that we see, right.
• 40:23
  And in a forest floor system, you've got the mulch layer
• 40:27
  that's breaking down and coming down into the soil.
• 40:29
  And then you've got all the biology in the soil, breaking it
• 40:32
  down, making it plant available. And as you rightly say, with the
• 40:35
  correct amount of oxygen and water in there.
• 40:38
  Now there's often these these, what do you call it deposits of
• 40:45
  of groundwater in nice and deep where the roots are able to
• 40:49
  reach right down and access that clean water.
• 40:52
  But then they're also getting rainwater that comes through the
• 40:55
  top and does that natural cycle of coming and bringing it all
• 40:58
  through the top. So if the plant wants clean
• 41:02
  water, it can access it. And if it wants nutrients, it
• 41:05
  sends out the sort of feeder roots up towards the surface to
• 41:08
  collect some of that nutrient filled compost.
• 41:11
  And things is, are you finding that if you went specifically
• 41:18
  wicking system only and you had just water underneath, are you
• 41:23
  finding that the plant misses out on anything from not having
• 41:26
  that top down watering? Or is it?
• 41:29
  Are you trying to have a bit of both do you think?
• 41:33
  Yeah, that's, that's a good question.
• 41:35
  You've described in a different way to what my, what I've heard
• 41:39
  most of the time, but that's, you've made a good point.
• 41:42
  And there's so much around this, this wicking.
• 41:47
  We're still learning so much about it and, and, and water ups
• 41:51
  and a guy called Eric Sturman, who, who's horticulturist used
• 41:56
  to be North Sydney's horticulturist.
• 42:00
  He, he is doing research and there is, there is so much that
• 42:05
  we don't understand, but we're learning more and more about
• 42:07
  what's, what's possible and pushing the boundaries of, of.
• 42:11
  So what we do know is that the wicking system is mimicking very
• 42:16
  much what's happening along a Creek bed or along a, a gully.
• 42:22
  So if you look in nature on top of the hills, generally the
• 42:26
  nutrients or the organic matter has tended to wash away and it
• 42:30
  tends to accumulate in the, in the valleys and you get a lot of
• 42:35
  green, you know, lush green grasses and, and plants growing.
• 42:39
  And, and these are almost sort of dry Creek beds that hold
• 42:43
  moisture under the ground. But in, in rain conditions, they
• 42:47
  would be carrying a lot of water through there.
• 42:51
  In the same sense, a, a weaking system is a similar thing.
• 42:55
  So when, as you're building solibology in your garden bed,
• 43:01
  when it rains, that nutrients is tending to wash through and then
• 43:05
  stays inside the reservoir. But a traditional garden would,
• 43:08
  would it would be a lot of that would be washing away.
• 43:11
  To give an example, I'm only building a house at the moment
• 43:14
  and we're on a sloping land and underneath is solid bedrock.
• 43:19
  And there's about, you know, about 300 mils of clay.
• 43:23
  And then we've got topsoil and A and and a reasonable amount of
• 43:28
  sort of organic matter on top, but a lot of it has over the
• 43:32
  years washed away. But as, as I've done a cut in
• 43:36
  for the house back to the bedrock, the just in the last
• 43:41
  few months will the rain we've been having, I'm seeing all the
• 43:45
  really nutrient rich water coming out of the organic matter
• 43:49
  up higher up on the hill, coming across the rock.
• 43:52
  And it's, it's literally like green, green water coming down
• 43:59
  and, and algae forming in puddles because that's so
• 44:02
  nutrient rich. And and that's been washed, you
• 44:05
  know, generally washed away when it's the moment you break the
• 44:07
  ground and you start doing earthworks, there's major
• 44:10
  problems with, you know, wash, you know, nutrients washing away
• 44:13
  and organic matter washing away. And, and, and that's what's
• 44:17
  causing a lot of the problems with flooding is, is the, the
• 44:21
  way we've done agriculture. So basically the wicking system
• 44:24
  is capturing that water and it's preventing it from washing away.
• 44:30
  So in the same way that they use whales to to slow the water down
• 44:34
  and slow the movement off your land to try to hold it longer to
• 44:38
  be able to soak into the organic matter.
• 44:43
  This is sort of speeding up the whole process and allowing more
• 44:46
  holding of more holding capacity of water.
• 44:48
  So it's just so in the same, in the same way that electric when
• 44:54
  electric fences first started, I was reading an article about the
• 44:57
  inventors of electric fencing and, and, and the challenge they
• 45:01
  had in convincing people this is a better way to go because, you
• 45:04
  know, it was after the war and everyone sort of had already had
• 45:08
  wire fencing and posts. And why would we want electric
• 45:11
  fencing? Well, there's some benefits to
• 45:13
  electric fencing. You can move it around, you can
• 45:17
  you can contain animals in a way that you could never contain
• 45:21
  them before, but it took a long time because people thought
• 45:24
  they're going to get electrocuted.
• 45:25
  And so there's a lot there was in the same way there's lots of
• 45:28
  sort of scepticism about, you know, these wicking systems.
• 45:31
  And recently Angus Stewart, who's the celebrity gardener, he
• 45:36
  was the guy before Costa. He grows kangaroo paws in
• 45:40
  Tasmania and he's one of the world's leading, you know,
• 45:43
  growers and developers of new, you know, types of kangaroo
• 45:46
  paws. And he uses our wicking system
• 45:49
  for all his all is growing. And he wrote a book.
• 45:52
  Yeah. He, he, he wrote a book called
• 45:54
  Future Proofy Garden, and it was all about climate change and the
• 45:58
  extreme weather events and how to mitigate all those extremes.
• 46:03
  And that's basically what a wicking system does in a
• 46:06
  nutshell. It's all the fluctuations.
• 46:10
  And as you were saying before, you know, a drip system, for
• 46:12
  example, when you have a drip system that drip, if you look at
• 46:16
  the profile of the soil underneath the drip system, you
• 46:19
  end up with a column of moisture and around and outside of that
• 46:23
  is, is quite dry. So traditionally with a, with a
• 46:26
  garden, it's very hard to tell how much moisture is actually in
• 46:29
  that soil without digging down and feeling it.
• 46:33
  Or it may be a case of you seeing the tree starting to
• 46:36
  wilt, which means it's too late. You've already, the tree's
• 46:38
  already in shock. So how do you prevent that?
• 46:41
  Well, a wicking system takes away all those fluctuations and
• 46:45
  it allows you to start to monitor how much that tree is
• 46:48
  drinking, when it's drinking, the seasons, when it's not
• 46:52
  drinking at all. And you can actually allow that
• 46:55
  reservoir to become depleted. And you don't need to worry
• 46:57
  about it, but it's allowing, it's creating an environment
• 47:01
  where that plant can get as much water, as little water as it
• 47:03
  wants, as you, as you say, as, as it needs it.
• 47:06
  And all of a sudden you become quite in tune to what that
• 47:10
  plant's doing, how much is drinking when it's drinking.
• 47:13
  And I was recently talking to one of the reps from Rocky Point
• 47:19
  mulching and that they were, I was at a, at a event in Roma.
• 47:23
  And she was telling me that, you know, the, the self or the, the
• 47:28
  fertilizing little beads that we put on, you know, around our
• 47:33
  plants and citrus plants, they, as it rains, they wash away and
• 47:37
  they, they wash nutrients. You know, a wicking system works
• 47:42
  differently. So we're, we're not watering
• 47:45
  from above. So you're getting this mildew,
• 47:47
  you're getting this mould and you're actually that moisture is
• 47:52
  coming from underneath. So the soil off the surface of
• 47:55
  the soil tends to be drier. You get less weeds because there
• 47:59
  is less moisture, you get less mildew.
• 48:01
  And So what she was saying is those those complaintive type
• 48:06
  beads that release nutrients, their casing is actually made of
• 48:12
  plastic. And in many cases it's a it's
• 48:14
  got pee fas in it and they they don't break down.
• 48:18
  So these things are being added to our soils.
• 48:20
  But if we just build healthy soil, we don't need to focus on
• 48:24
  these things as much. And yeah.
• 48:27
  I'm a big advocate for that, Paul, and thank you for
• 48:29
  explaining that because that gives me a lot more perspective.
• 48:32
  And I hadn't really thought about how it's capturing what's
• 48:36
  washed through. So you're getting some of the
• 48:39
  leaching of these minerals that you normally would lose and then
• 48:42
  they're therefore going to be in the water there and, and
• 48:45
  accessible. And I loved how you said you get
• 48:48
  to know the plant as well and what it drink, when it's
• 48:51
  drinking, when its requirements are heavier than others, because
• 48:56
  it's this ideal moisture zone that we're trying to keep the
• 48:59
  plant in. And I've found that obviously if
• 49:03
  you have big swings in the climate and the temperature or
• 49:06
  big dry downs and then, you know, completely saturated with
• 49:10
  a lot of rain, it puts the plants under so much stress.
• 49:12
  So they're having this consistent moisture range is a
• 49:16
  lot better for the stress of the plant and, and therefore for
• 49:20
  you, your crops and your food, right.
• 49:21
  So absolutely. Yeah.
• 49:24
  I want to touch on something that you mentioned before
• 49:26
  because you, you mentioned swales, right?
• 49:29
  And you'd mentioned to me the other day that you are trialling
• 49:32
  something with a wicking system and swales.
• 49:37
  Can you run me through a little bit of that and the thinking
• 49:39
  behind that 'cause that's so intriguing?
• 49:42
  Yeah, and it was for several years.
• 49:46
  I was doing shows and Expos and telling people about how good,
• 49:50
  you know, the system is and, and, and maybe having a few pots
• 49:53
  here to show them. And often people think, you
• 49:55
  know, he's just trying to sell me something, you know, what's
• 49:57
  he trying to sell me now? And I came to the realization,
• 50:00
  you know what, I need to stop telling people, you know, how
• 50:03
  good it is and just show them. So I'm actually starting a food
• 50:06
  forest down here in NSW and I'm passionate about doing it in a
• 50:12
  way which shows people how they can establish that food forest
• 50:16
  in a fraction of the time it would normally take.
• 50:18
  And, and I know there's a lot of interesting people wanting to
• 50:21
  set up a food forest or on a small scale in a backyard.
• 50:25
  So what I've done is taken the permaculture principles of
• 50:29
  swales and taken it to the point of let's do swales, but let's do
• 50:35
  them on steroids. So let's put the wicking
• 50:37
  underneath the swales and have the ability to, to when that
• 50:41
  Swale fills up with water, we can, we can drain that Swale
• 50:45
  into the wicking reservoir to capture that water to extend the
• 50:51
  period of time that it actually soaks up into the soil.
• 50:54
  As well as that, I've got a dam and I've been talking to Arne
• 50:58
  King about aquatic plants and actually creating a floating
• 51:03
  raft, a wicking raft for edible Aquatics and then having the
• 51:08
  ability to feed that water through the wicking system.
• 51:12
  Really dry periods where we, we, you know, we don't have a lot of
• 51:16
  rain, but the dam, you know, stocking the dam with fish, the
• 51:20
  nutrients from that water, feeding it through the the, the
• 51:23
  wicking system. So yeah, funny enough.
• 51:25
  So this sort of came about talking to stocklands.
• 51:31
  So we were doing some of the community gardens at Stocklands
• 51:34
  up in Bodrum, the, the over 55 villages.
• 51:38
  And one of their biggest challenges is they, they don't
• 51:41
  have enough space for water tanks.
• 51:42
  So all, all the residents, a lot of them are elderly people that
• 51:47
  love gardening, but they're having to pay water and they're
• 51:51
  using town water, which has got chlorine in it.
• 51:53
  So we were talking about how to set up some of their some of
• 51:58
  these developments with the wicking system under the ground.
• 52:00
  So as a way of mitigating the run off from the roads that, you
• 52:04
  know, around the houses that they, rather than have to drain
• 52:08
  it all into a lake or into a waterway that they can feed all
• 52:13
  these, you know, all the roof gutters, everything into the,
• 52:18
  the under, under garden wicking system as a way of storing that,
• 52:24
  that rainwater, which is great for your garden.
• 52:26
  And, you know, minimising the, the need to irrigate plants.
• 52:32
  So there's no limit to what you can do.
• 52:34
  It's just the only limit is our imagination.
• 52:37
  And so I'm trying to demonstrate that here, here.
• 52:39
  And I've been growing fruit trees.
• 52:42
  I'm, I'm passionate about Bush Tucker.
• 52:43
  And, and so I've been growing fruit trees for the last four
• 52:46
  years in the wicking pots and then I've planted them onto
• 52:51
  large planters in some cases. And, and now I'm just starting
• 52:54
  to put them into the ground with the wicking system.
• 52:56
  So they've had a full life from, from a grafted tree to a fully
• 53:00
  grown fruiting tree with the wicking.
• 53:02
  And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting.
• 53:05
  And I'm I'm not a expert gardener in any way, but it's
• 53:08
  using the Wiccan system makes me look like a bit.
• 53:12
  It's taken away some of the obstacles that a lot of people
• 53:15
  face, isn't it? But I love this idea of having
• 53:19
  it under the ground and the repurposing and then the fish in
• 53:21
  the dam that are feeding and bringing almost like all of
• 53:25
  these different areas of hydroponics and, and, you know,
• 53:29
  all of these things all together in one thing.
• 53:31
  What does it look like under the Swale system?
• 53:35
  Like what's the wicking system actually built like under these
• 53:39
  whales? So that's a really good point.
• 53:42
  So I, I started out thinking I was going to do long rows with
• 53:46
  the wicking system. But it's, I've come to realize
• 53:50
  that for cost purposes and for, just for practicality, it's
• 53:54
  better to focus on putting the wicking underneath the, the main
• 53:59
  fruit trees or the main trees that I'm trying to establish
• 54:02
  that would tend to dry out or wouldn't do well in a drought.
• 54:06
  And so with a Swale in permaculture, you've got the
• 54:11
  hollow and then you've got the mound where you're growing the
• 54:13
  trees on and it's you're chopping and dropping and
• 54:16
  creating organic matter along those those mounds.
• 54:20
  So I'm mounting the, I'm placing the wicking systems underneath
• 54:26
  the trees and I'm looking at connecting those via irrigation
• 54:33
  pipes just purely for, you know, refilling those reservoirs in a
• 54:39
  drought where I needed to actually fill them and with the
• 54:42
  ability to automate it in some way.
• 54:44
  And this is all comes back down to labour intensity of, of, you
• 54:48
  know, irrigating. And, and so, yeah, there's,
• 54:53
  there's different things I'm trying and I'm, I'm, I'm
• 54:56
  starting to film it and sort of capture what I'm doing so that
• 55:01
  it, I can refer back to it later on when we see, you know, the
• 55:04
  results, what worked better than, than others.
• 55:07
  So it's a bit of an experiment at the same time.
• 55:10
  Yeah, it seems. It seems fun though, because
• 55:12
  that's you're trialling stuff and just trying basically
• 55:16
  throwing things at the wall, being creative and and seeing
• 55:19
  what is going to work and have things run off.
• 55:22
  So are you then digging down quite a, is this prep done
• 55:28
  before the Swale prep is done or in the same process and and this
• 55:32
  kind of thing? So yeah, that's that's another
• 55:35
  really good point you've made there.
• 55:36
  So we've got bedrock about sort of 5600 down.
• 55:40
  So obviously it can't be lower than that.
• 55:43
  But in reality, you don't need a lot of depth like most plants
• 55:49
  like for example, veggies, you know, 200 mil of soil depth is
• 55:52
  all they need to grow fruit trees, probably 5-6 hundred.
• 55:57
  Most of the roots of of trees are actually on the surface in
• 56:00
  the organic layer. They're not particularly deep.
• 56:02
  We've had some massive Big Blue gums fall over just recently in
• 56:06
  a big storm And and again, they should their their root systems
• 56:09
  are significantly shallow. Yeah.
• 56:12
  So they don't need to be particularly deep.
• 56:14
  So I'm saving my back and not digging particularly deep holes.
• 56:18
  I'm actually tending just to go below the surface and then
• 56:22
  building with organic matter above to keep them mounded and
• 56:27
  to provide good drainage. So we're on a sloping block.
• 56:30
  So the ability to drain each each terrace or each Swale into
• 56:34
  the other and then even to have the bottom some sort of tank
• 56:38
  system to capture any, any nutrients that does escape that
• 56:43
  system to be able to pump it back to the top.
• 56:46
  The goal is to stop any water running off our property is, is
• 56:51
  the ultimate goal because that is a significant challenge when
• 56:56
  anyone is building on, on a on a sloping block, even in a
• 57:00
  suburban setting. You know, it was just recently I
• 57:03
  was at the at a garden show up in Roma and talked to a woman
• 57:06
  who she had had some earth work done in her backyard because she
• 57:09
  had major problems with water just sitting in her backyard and
• 57:13
  coming from next door and then just sitting in a big pool.
• 57:16
  And so she dug a big sump and she just realised being at the
• 57:22
  show, we were talking about this little channel of Eric, you
• 57:25
  know, looking system that she could actually put along the
• 57:28
  fence line where she'd have a nice garden.
• 57:31
  And then all that water would actually drain off the path into
• 57:36
  the wicking system, irrigator plants.
• 57:38
  And any excess could run into that sump and then with the sump
• 57:42
  pump be pumped back up to a dedicated tank for nutrient
• 57:46
  water basically for a garden. So yeah, Yeah.
• 57:49
  That's. Really clever I've I do have a
• 57:51
  little bit of an issue with that myself with some of the
• 57:54
  neighboring blocks being slightly higher than an area in
• 57:57
  the back of our garden. So it tends to, to have some
• 58:00
  water sitting and even though that's not particularly an area
• 58:04
  that I'm going to be changing into a, a garden, to be honest.
• 58:08
  But it, it gives you some ideas, some, some repurposing and the
• 58:14
  extremes in weather that we see, especially up here in Queensland
• 58:17
  where we've got one moment we can just be having inundated
• 58:21
  full of rain and then we're going without rain for such a
• 58:24
  long time. And then there's like the
• 58:25
  cyclones and all of these things we're, we're reusing and
• 58:31
  recycling our resources in a very effective way.
• 58:34
  And it's going to save you money on your fertilizers, it's going
• 58:38
  to save you money on water. It's going to save you time.
• 58:41
  It's going to protect your crops and all of these things.
• 58:44
  There's so many upsides to it. If you had to, if you, if you
• 58:50
  kind of had to give people a little bit of an intro, maybe
• 58:53
  not an intro. A a couple of things that people
• 58:57
  need to think about when they're getting a working system or even
• 59:01
  just a few scenarios in which you see working systems being
• 59:05
  really useful. We spoke about a couple of those
• 59:08
  being the initial sort of backyard setting where they've
• 59:12
  got something they can grow in these nice planter boxes that
• 59:15
  are all set up very nicely. We spoke about, you know, who
• 59:20
  may be going something like you're doing with the under the
• 59:23
  swales and, and actually doing some earthworks and reservoirs
• 59:26
  and things like this. I've seen giant like oil like
• 59:31
  situations as well where they've got these clay or terracotta,
• 59:35
  you know, reservoirs where all of the irrigation is going.
• 59:38
  And that's a similar thing where it's sort of wicking out of the
• 59:41
  side of that and the roots are attaching around that.
• 59:44
  But what are some what are some common things that you you hear
• 59:48
  people talking about with wicking systems when they're
• 59:50
  setting up and and what can you offer people advice on in their
• 59:54
  journey starting to jump into wicking beds?
• 59:57
  Yeah, Yeah. So that's a really good
• 59:59
  question. So one of the biggest questions
• 1:00:01
  we get is what sort of soil do we use?
• 1:00:05
  And basically the, the, the, the, the answer is whatever soil
• 1:00:09
  you would normally use for that plant that you're growing.
• 1:00:11
  And with the the the with the main focus on organic matter.
• 1:00:17
  So if they were going to start out for the first time and just
• 1:00:20
  have a little wicking set up on their balcony, I would strongly
• 1:00:23
  recommend learning about composting because your kitchen
• 1:00:29
  waste is could be turned into gold, literally soil gold.
• 1:00:34
  And with a little worm farm, one of the easiest ways to do it and
• 1:00:37
  one of the most effective ways I have seen is just putting a, a
• 1:00:43
  little in, in soil composting pot into the, you know, into the
• 1:00:49
  soil. And it could be just an old
• 1:00:50
  plant pot that you bury and put a lid on top so rats can't get
• 1:00:54
  it into it. And just start throwing your,
• 1:00:57
  your green waste into that soil directly.
• 1:01:01
  And it'll save you having to, you know, make a compost pile
• 1:01:04
  and then add it to the soil. If, if you're, if you've got a
• 1:01:07
  busy lifestyle, that's the easiest way to dispose of your,
• 1:01:11
  you know, your green waste, but it's going to directly feed your
• 1:01:14
  plants and the worms will get in there.
• 1:01:16
  Even if there's no worms in to start with, they will find a way
• 1:01:19
  into that garden because they have this innate ability to find
• 1:01:22
  food and, and, and because of the wicking system, it will
• 1:01:26
  provide consistent moisture. One of the problems with
• 1:01:28
  composting is they dry out well with the wicking.
• 1:01:31
  It will keep that organic matter and that food damp, which will
• 1:01:37
  breakdown. Some people are worried about,
• 1:01:39
  you know, flies and things like that.
• 1:01:40
  Well, if you, if you cover it with, with carbon and, you know,
• 1:01:45
  some mulch or some leaf, just some brown leaf litter from
• 1:01:47
  around the place, it'll, it'll soak up that moisture and stop
• 1:01:50
  the smell. So yeah.
• 1:01:51
  Yeah, that's such a good point, Paul, because you're right, the
• 1:01:56
  the quality of the soil, the potting mix, this starting
• 1:01:59
  medium that you're using very much dictates its ability to
• 1:02:03
  Wick properly, hold moisture properly and give access to
• 1:02:07
  nutrients and things like this. I often find myself talking to
• 1:02:12
  people about the ingredients used in certain potting mixes
• 1:02:16
  and how, for example, looking into the ingredients where
• 1:02:21
  they're sourced from and the make up of that particular
• 1:02:26
  potting mix or soil. Because it might be using 90%
• 1:02:31
  like wood chip. It might be using lots of things
• 1:02:34
  like, you know, composted chicken manure or various
• 1:02:37
  different things that have these different water holding
• 1:02:39
  capacities or nutrient profiles. And, and obviously the, the
• 1:02:44
  sterilization that goes through the contamination and all of
• 1:02:47
  these different things. They say it's approved for
• 1:02:49
  organic use when often it's not and it doesn't come from organic
• 1:02:52
  sources and all of these things. But that's a whole another
• 1:02:55
  rabbit hole. But do you find that making the
• 1:02:59
  wrong or making the wrong choice or or starting out right by
• 1:03:03
  really thinking about the quality of the ingredients in
• 1:03:05
  your soil, you're therefore going to get a much better
• 1:03:07
  result long term with the wicking system.
• 1:03:11
  Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the mistakes
• 1:03:13
  I made in the beginning is I didn't know a lot about
• 1:03:16
  gardening when I started and I had a weaknesses and I thought
• 1:03:20
  it's the key to all my problems. So not realizing that if I start
• 1:03:24
  with bad soil, no magical wicking system is going to
• 1:03:29
  improve that soil. You need to have good soil.
• 1:03:32
  And it's funny game on this whole journey has made me
• 1:03:35
  realize that the whole commercial soil industry, like
• 1:03:40
  our food industry is very much regulated.
• 1:03:42
  And unfortunately, you know, potting mixes and things like
• 1:03:46
  that all have some things in them that we may not realize.
• 1:03:50
  And and one of them is in Queensland is the fire Ant
• 1:03:53
  problem. As a result, you know, there's
• 1:03:56
  regulation that says they'd have to, you know, put chemicals in
• 1:03:59
  there to kill or get, you know, kill living things like, you
• 1:04:04
  know, fire ants will. We don't want to kill.
• 1:04:07
  We want everything to be living in our soil.
• 1:04:10
  So you really have to, you can start with something, but at the
• 1:04:13
  end of the day, you're going to have to build it and add and add
• 1:04:16
  to it to create as much diversity in the soil as you
• 1:04:21
  possibly can. And but that's a whole another
• 1:04:23
  podcast. Yeah.
• 1:04:25
  I totally agree with that. It's such a good point to leave,
• 1:04:29
  leave people thinking about. But just one last thing that I'd
• 1:04:32
  love from you mate, is, is what's your top of mind thinking
• 1:04:36
  at the moment in terms of way you're keen to be moving and
• 1:04:40
  talking about? What's something that's that
• 1:04:43
  you're passionate about at the moment that you're hoping to to
• 1:04:45
  sort of bring more light to? Yeah, so creating resilient
• 1:04:50
  communities is something that I'm quite passionate about
• 1:04:54
  resilient creative communities, I might add.
• 1:04:56
  And I think there's I think there's going to be a big shift
• 1:05:01
  towards people who want to be, to be a part of a community that
• 1:05:07
  that is around food security and creative building practices.
• 1:05:14
  I guess a bit like the Amish, but I'm not talking about a
• 1:05:16
  commune or anything, but I'm, I am talking about people becoming
• 1:05:18
  more aware that they need to be connected to farmers, to
• 1:05:23
  communities that are growing like yourself, teaching,
• 1:05:26
  educating. And I think people will be
• 1:05:29
  amazed when they do start to get immersed in that, how much
• 1:05:33
  there's a world that they didn't realize was there that they
• 1:05:37
  would probably really enjoy if they they took the step of faith
• 1:05:41
  just to try it. A community garden is a great
• 1:05:45
  place to start. Just getting into a community
• 1:05:47
  garden. The people you will meet from
• 1:05:49
  all different walks of life that have some amazing knowledge
• 1:05:54
  about natural systems. And it's yeah.
• 1:05:58
  So yeah, being involved in that. Very, very cool, mate.
• 1:06:01
  Well, I share that too. I think that's a wonderful thing
• 1:06:04
  that you're doing. There we have it, ladies and
• 1:06:21
  gentlemen, fascinating conversation with Paul and I
• 1:06:24
  think you'll agree he is really seriously doing some cool things
• 1:06:28
  and spreading awareness, but also showcasing what can be done
• 1:06:32
  with a little bit of creativity and a little bit of thought.
• 1:06:35
  And I'm really grateful to Paul for sharing some of these.
• 1:06:38
  And I would love to get him back on to dive a little bit further
• 1:06:42
  into some of these learnings and teachings that we touched on
• 1:06:45
  today because there are so many different rabbit holes and
• 1:06:48
  conversations that could have come off this.
• 1:06:50
  So if you'd like to see Paul back, let me know in the
• 1:06:54
  comments section below. Go and hit up Paul.
• 1:06:56
  His links will be in the description.
• 1:06:58
  You can go and say good day, and you can go and say that you
• 1:07:01
  enjoyed the conversation. If you did, sharing this episode
• 1:07:04
  around with your friends, tagging me on your stories, if
• 1:07:06
  you're listening to it is always fun.
• 1:07:08
  I love seeing where people are listening from.
• 1:07:11
  And a review, as always, helps people find the show.
• 1:07:14
  So I'll be forever grateful if you could do that.
• 1:07:17
  Otherwise, look, that's it from me.
• 1:07:19
  I'm looking very much forward to another episode each and every
• 1:07:22
  week. So sit tight, enjoy your gardens
• 1:07:24
  and get out there in the sunshine, get your hands in the
• 1:07:26
  soil and live a happy and healthy life.
• 1:07:29
  We'll see you very soon next week on the very next episode.
• 1:07:32
  Bye for now.