Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10-13) (5/17/26)

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Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10-13) (5/17/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
0:03
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where
0:07
we left off with a Michael Thomas interview with the
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OIG inspectors. Question okay, and with the round you also
0:16
don't need to speak with them. You just have to
0:18
make sure that they're in there and they're alive, Thomas,
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just make sure. Yeah, for the round, just make sure
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that they're in there. Question okay? And at all times
0:28
do two officers needed to do the rounds and the counts?
0:32
Answer supposed to be yeah. Question. And what's the primary
0:36
purpose of conducting counts and rounds Thomas, to make sure
0:40
there's a body inside the cell? Question okay, And like
0:43
you said, no one has escaped Thomas, Yeah, make sure
0:47
somebody's in there. Question. Now, are cell counts and rounds
0:51
documented Thomas? Yeah? Question okay? And do the CEOs signed
0:56
documents after they conduct rounds and counts? Tom? Yes? Yes. Question. Now,
1:03
in this case, from twelve am to eight am, there's
1:06
two people that are assigned to the shoe correct Thomas, yes, question,
1:11
and two people have to actually conduct the rounds, correct Thomas, yes. Question.
1:16
So if you and Noel are the only two officers
1:19
in the shoe? Were you both responsible for documenting the
1:23
round sheets and the count slips? Thomas documenting the count slips,
1:27
not the round sheet. I mean, if I'm not mistaken,
1:31
there's no direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it or
1:34
do it. It's not assigned or numbered that has to
1:38
do this or number has to do that. The only
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thing that we have to do is sign a count slip.
1:44
As far as signing a round sheet, he gets cut off.
1:47
So both have to sign the counts. But for the
1:49
round sheets, if one person signs it, are they basically
1:53
signing for both of you? Thomas? Yeah, if you're going
1:56
to they sign it for Bothes, So both people are
2:01
responsible for that signature. For the rounds, Thomas, Well, because
2:05
I sign it, she can sign it. It doesn't make
2:07
a difference. Question. But she's signing on behalf of the
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both of you, Thomas signed that the rounds weren't completed. Yes,
2:15
question okay? And what do you do with the documents
2:19
after they're signed? So let's talk about rounds first. After
2:23
the round sheets are signed, can you just explain to
2:26
me what a round sheet is? Do you keep everything
2:29
on one document Thomas, for all three shifts are all
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on one document. Question, so starting on each date from
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twelve am he gets cut off by Thomas. If it
2:41
says twelve am, I can't remember the exact date. It
2:44
should start from one or maybe it's twelve oh one
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and continue on. Question okay, and what about count? Sorry?
2:53
What do you do with those sheets after your document?
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The thirty minutes Thomas cuts them off? They stay there.
3:00
I guess they get sent to the lieutenant's office at
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the end. They get sent to the lieutenant's office at
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the end of the day. Question okay, And who collects them? Thomas,
3:09
Internal usually collects them. Question and what is internal? Thomas,
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how do you explain internal? The staff member that rides
3:18
up the elevator and at the end of the day
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you collect five security sheets, round sheets, a bunch of
3:23
different paperwork he gets cut off? Is internal like part
3:27
of control? Thomas? No, it's a person in an elevator
3:31
because inmates can't ride the elevators by themselves because we're
3:34
in a high rise. Question okay, Thomas, So it's not
3:39
like a compound center. So the officer on that usually
3:43
collects all the rounds. If somebody else hasn't done it.
3:46
The officer on the elevator will usually do it, which
3:50
is called internal question. Is it a lieutenant or an
3:54
officer or either? Answer by Thomas, it's an officer. Question,
3:59
it's an office okay. And do you call anyone with
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the numbers for either counts or rounds? Thomas? You call
4:06
control center? Question? Do you call them or did they
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call you? Thomas? No, you call them? Question you call them?
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And how do you call in the control center? Do
4:16
you ask for someone? Thomas? No, you call CNA. I
4:20
forgot and don't ask me what CNA stands for. Because
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you have a control center and then you have another
4:26
person and if it's still two, because it used to
4:29
be one at a time, but you have the control
4:32
center and then another person in there, and the person
4:35
is called CNA, and you would call them and they
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would have a sheet they would call for the count
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that they could verify for the count question. Is it
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just for the counts not for the rounds? Thomas, it's
4:48
just for the counts? Question? Okay? When you call, do
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you give them a number? Thomas? Yeah, you call and
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give them a number? Question okay? And is it just
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one overall number? Thomas, Yeah, it that's an overall number
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question for the shoe, so it would be you wouldn't
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say per tier Thomas. No, No, they just say one
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base count of the whole shoe. Question okay, So on
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August tenth, during your shift from twelve am to approximately
5:16
six thirty three am, when did you conduct rounds in
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the shoe? Thomas on August tenth, I didn't question. No
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rounds were conducted. Thomas, No, I don't recall doing any rounds.
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Question okay. When did you conduct cells during your shift
5:34
in the shoe? On August tenth? Thomas sells question, sorry,
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cell counts? My bad? When did you conduct the counts
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during your shift? Thomas? I didn't question, You didn't okay,
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and didn't know well Thomas, No, she didn't question. No,
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she didn't. So no one conducted rounds or counts on
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August tenth, twenty nineteen, mister Thomas, No on my shift,
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no question, okay, prior to six thirty three am. On
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August tenth, twenty nineteen, when was the last time you
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conducted a round within the shoe? Mister Thomas I he
6:11
gets cut off. Would you have conducted rounds on August ninth,
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twenty nineteen, Thomas, yeah, prior the day the day prior question,
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and do you recall if you actually conducted any rounds
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that day? Thomas, I probably did it for the rounds
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and then my counts. I probably did a couple there. Yeah,
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question a couple Thomas. I know I did my count
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I don't know how many rounds that I did. Question Okay,
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do you know if you did the twelve am, the
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three am, and the five am Thomas, Yeah, I would
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assume I did. Yes. Question, So if we go back
6:46
to the video, we'll be able to see that you
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did those Thomas, You'll see if I did it. Question
6:52
all right, so your belief is the August ninth, you
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did actually conduct those rounds. Thomas, I would assume I
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did my counts. Yes. Question. Okay, we're all in the
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rounds that were documented conducted on August ninth. Thomas, I
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don't know. I don't know. Question. Would you guess that
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they weren't, Thomas, I guess that they were before anything
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else before I said that they weren't, I would guess
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that they were. Some rounds were probably conducted. Question. Okay,
7:21
some were conducted, so maybe some weren't, Thomas, Maybe some wasn't.
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Nobody's perfect question? Okay, all right, question one person has
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to do the round. Where's the notebook? Thomas, that's the
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round sheet question? Okay, So this is August tenth, twenty nineteen.
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The round sheet chose twelve through it was only signed
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up until six six thirty, different dates, different tiers. Okay,
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can you just explain? Are these is this for the
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overall shoe and the different tiers listed on it? Mister
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Thomas the yes question? All right? Now he gets cut
8:03
off by Thomas. It's not labeled at different tiers. No,
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it's not labeled at different tiers. Well, yes, each paper
8:10
is a different tier. Question. Yes, So like this says
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Tier G, that one is Tier H Thomas. Yeah, question
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correct Thomas, each thing's a different tier, question tire k Thomas,
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No tiar L question, that's a different count. Okay. So
8:29
these are what's signed after a round is conducted, Thomas. Yeah.
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Question all right, and these are signed, but none were
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actually conducted, Is that correct? Thomas? Yes? Question Okay, are
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any of these signatures actually yours? Thomas? No question? Okay,
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So whose signature? Whose initials are these? Thomas, it's Noel's question.
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All right, but as you mentioned before, you are both
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actually responsible for signing. Thomas. No, we're both not responsible.
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Question I know, but responsible for Thomas cuts them off signing,
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he gets cut off conducting them. Thomas. Both are supposed
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to be conducting. Yeah, both are responsible for conducting. Question. Okay,
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so why didn't you guys conduct the rounds? Thomas? I
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couldn't tell you. I was tired that day. As you
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can see you by the paper, I do a lot
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of overtime. I was just tired, just exhausted that day. Question. Hum,
9:27
all right, can you just initial that date? Sir? Thank you?
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And you said that you also didn't conduct any of
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the cell counts on the shoe on August tenth, twenty nineteen. Correct, Thomas,
9:39
cell counts? What do you mean sell counts? Question? The counts?
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So that was the rounds? These are the counts Thomas counts? Yes? Question, Sorry,
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the inmate counts. I don't know why. Somebody wrote, Okay,
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so the twelve am, three am, five am, none of
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those were conducted, Thomas, No, question? Are the the three
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where they? Can you just tell me what it is
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we're looking at here? It looks like, this is the
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overall twelve am count. Thomas cuts them off. Institution count. Question,
10:12
So this is the institution count and this is for
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all three of those counts. Twelve am, three am, five
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am Thomas, yes. Question. All right, awesome, mister Mitchell, who
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is a lawyer and the number doesn't change or anything? Thomas, no, Mitchell, okay,
10:29
all right. So is that the time of the count Thomas, No,
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that's the time of the counts on either one of them.
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That's not the time of the counts. Question. Look at
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the bottom, Thomas, Yeah, the time when it was printed.
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The time it was printed question at the top and
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at the bottom is the time of the count? Thomas? Yeah?
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What time? Question? The first one was at twelve forty
10:56
nine was when it would have been cleared? Is that correct? Thomas? Yes? Question,
11:02
And then this one would have been three. It looks
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like Thomas three twenty four. Question three twenty four. I
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don't know what the three nineteen on here means, Thomas,
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it means good verbal GV means good verbal. Question. Oh, okay,
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so good verbal at three nineteen Thomas clear, accounted question.
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And the next one was at five thirty. So that's
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the overall count. Can you just tell me what are
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these pages? Thomas? That's the hospital which is the suicide room.
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That means that three inmates were out of their cell
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that were down in the suicide room. Question Okay Thomas,
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I mean those four inmates. Question. And what about this?
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What's that? Thomas? That's just the paperwork that's in the
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computer system saying that they were taken from one place
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to another. Question Okay Thomas, they were taken from their
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cells to the hospital. Question okay. And these are the
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actual count slips, Thomas, these are the actual account slips.
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Question all right? Can you find which count slips were
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the ones used from the shoe on August tenth? Thomas,
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I would say, Za, question. I think it might be
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the next page. Okay, So that's Za, the very last page.
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And two signatures are those? Thomas mine and Noel's question
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you and Noel? Okay? And you actually did sign this Thomas, yes?
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Question okay? And it says eight ten nineteen. And what
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does that time? Say Thomas twelve? Oh one question? Who
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would have filled that part out? Thomas? He gets cut off.
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Can you tell Thomas, Yeah, that looks like my handwriting. Question?
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So your handwriting would have filled that out, all right?
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And did you have a conversation with Noel at the time.
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Thomas No, I don't recall any conversation with her. Question
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you don't recall. So was it like, hey, we're tired,
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let's just fill this out? Thomas, I don't recall. It
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could have been I don't recall saying that, but it
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could have been something to that nature. All right, folks,
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we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next
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episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
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we left off. All of the information that goes with
13:16
this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
13:20
and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
13:24
this episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off
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with a Michael Thomas interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question,
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do you remember having any conversation with Control Center or
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the Absolute Tenant about the fact that those numbers are different?
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Thomas No. Question. So do you remember were you the
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one who called that number on that night? Thomas, I
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don't remember. Question you don't remember? Thomas, I don't remember.
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Question you don't remember? And I only say this just
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because of everything that surrounding this. These were the three
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counts prior and obviously Thomas, uh huh, this is the
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kind of reason for us interviewing you, Thomas. But then
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also he gets cut off. Question do you remember it
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says here you can look at the next So this
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is thea what does that number say? Thomas seventy two? Question?
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Whose handwriting is this? Thomas? This one is mine? That's mine? Question?
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So that's all yours? And you did sign this one, Thomas, yes. Question,
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and this is the three am count Thomas, uh huh. Question?
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What does this say? Thomas seventy two? Question? All right,
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So do you recall a conversation with the absolute tenant
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with regard to the discrepancy? Thomas. I don't recall. I
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don't recall a conversation with redacted the discrepancy. But I'm
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sure that another one was sent down changing because they
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wanted to clear. I'm sure that another one was sent
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down saying seventy two with the correct number on it.
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The person that can see that's down there definitely would
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have verified that, oh, you can have the wrong number
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and switched it out. Question do you remember those speaking
15:10
with the person on the phone and saying that. Thomas,
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I don't question. You don't remember any conversation with them
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telling you you've got to do a new account, a
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new count slip. Thomas, I don't recall any conversation. I
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would be sure that he didn't just let that just
15:25
go with the wrong number on there, or maybe he did,
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maybe he didn't. Question, Well, I think it was a
15:31
she that you would have spoken to, Thomas. It's a he. Question, Oh,
15:37
this person is a he, So it wouldn't have been
15:39
redacted that did this one. Thomas, what do you mean question?
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Who would have? Can you tell me which, because doesn't
15:46
the absolute tenant have to take one of the counts?
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Can you tell me who it was that took this
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count at twelve am? Thomas? I couldn't tell by the handwriting. Well,
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I don't know who took it. It doesn't say who
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took it. It just says who prepared it. Question, Okay,
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do you at all recall speaking with redacted about these counts?
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On August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, No, I don't question. No,
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So is this the first time that you're even noticing
16:14
that the count Thomas, that the count slip was wrong? Yes,
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this is the first time. Besides, this is the first
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time he gets cut off. Would that be a big
16:23
deal if you're sending in account slip that's wrong though, Thomas.
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Would it be a big deal. Yeah, it would be
16:29
a big deal as far as the wrong count being
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called in and then the correct count slip would have
16:34
been changed before the count was cleared. Question Okay, Thomas,
16:39
So I'm sure the correct count slip probably was sent down,
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it's just obviously not here. Question. But being that it's
16:46
kind of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your
16:48
memory of any kind of correction to this. Thomas. No,
16:52
it's not sparking my memory by any kind. But I'm
16:55
sure a correct count slip would have been sent down.
16:59
Question Okay, Thomas, it would have just been left at
17:02
seventy three and that's the wrong number. Question, So a
17:07
new count slip would have been sent down. Is there
17:09
any reason for them to have that count slip that
17:12
was originally prepared attached to this document Thomas, unless it
17:16
got misplaced. No, I don't know they would put that
17:19
onto this document. Question Okay, fair enough, or any supervisors
17:24
present or any supervisors So you already said you didn't
17:28
conduct any counts. So obviously no supervisors were present for
17:32
any counts or rounds during your shift, correct, Thomas? Uh huh? Question?
17:37
Were they required to be present for any counts or
17:40
rounds during their shift? Thomas, They're required to take one count.
17:45
I don't know which count they're required. I don't know
17:48
what's the book thing, but which one they required? But
17:51
are there required to take rounds in the shoe while
17:54
I'm there? I don't know. Question? Okay, Thomas, I don't
17:57
know if they're actually supposed to have to do one
18:00
around per unit or anything like that. I really don't know. Question.
18:05
So when you say they're required to take one count,
18:07
do you mean in the control center Thomas, in the
18:11
control center downstairs? Yes? Question. Yeah, they're supposed to take
18:15
an institutional count Thomas, exactly. Question. But are they required
18:21
to go to the shoe and physically do either a
18:23
round or account during each shift? Thomas? I don't know. Question.
18:28
Did they ever do that during any of your morning?
18:30
Your shifts from midnight to eight am? Thomas? Did they
18:34
ever come take account with me? Question? Do a round
18:38
or account with you? Thomas? Yeah, I've seen them do
18:41
it before. I've seen them just come. Some will count
18:44
a unit from time to time. Question Okay, Thomas, I
18:48
don't recall that night which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants
18:52
i'll count that unit so you don't have to worry
18:54
about it, since we'd be shorthanded. Sometimes if they're out
18:58
there and about at that time, they'll just take it.
19:00
Then they'll take the three count. Like I said, it varies.
19:04
There's as far as I know, there's no black and
19:07
white way to do it. Question Okay, so you don't
19:10
know Thomas as far as he gets cut off. Question
19:14
a requirement saying that you know a lieutenant needs to
19:17
do account or around Thomas. Yeah, I don't know of
19:20
any requirement. Question So you think when people did it
19:24
in the shoe, you think your understanding was that they
19:26
were doing it just to help you out. Thomas, Yeah,
19:29
if they did it while I was in the shoe, yes.
19:32
Question do you recall when you worked in the shoe
19:34
if there were any recent times, like I know you
19:37
worked on August ninth, do you remember at all? I
19:40
know it's a different day Thomas on the sixth, I think.
19:44
Question do you remember at that time if a lieutenant
19:46
helped or assisted with the count Thomas, I don't question,
19:51
you don't Thomas, I don't question fair enough, all right,
19:55
So you already said we don't need to go through
19:57
all these individually, Thomas, okay, question one by one, you
20:02
said you didn't do the twelve am at three am
20:05
and the five am. What conversation did you have with
20:08
Noel about this during that time? Answer? I don't know.
20:12
Question I know you asked specifically about the twelve am,
20:15
but what about it during your shift at all, like
20:18
not doing any of the counts or any of the rounds.
20:20
What conversation did you have with Noel Thomas. I don't
20:25
remember having any conversation with her about it, no question,
20:28
So it wasn't even discussed, like, hey, it's long night,
20:31
we're all tired, let's just not do these. Thomas. I
20:34
don't remember. Question no Thomas, I don't think so. I
20:37
don't remember anything like that. Question all right, So not
20:42
one of them were conducted, but no conversation with regard
20:45
to it, Thomas, I don't remember any conversation with us
20:48
talking about it or anything like that. Question okay, And
20:52
on the twelve am at three am five am, did
20:55
you call in the counts or did Noel call in
20:58
the counts. Thomas, I don't remember who called in the counts. Question. Okay, Thomas,
21:04
I don't remember. It had to be either one. There's
21:06
only two of us there. I don't remember who did
21:09
it exactly. I really don't question. All right, So, like
21:12
you said, with regard to the rounds that are signed,
21:15
both are responsible. You know, you're supposed to both conduct it.
21:19
One actually has to sign Thomas. Somebody has to call in. Question,
21:24
somebody has to call it in. So you're both taking
21:27
responsibility for calling them in. You both take responsibility for
21:30
signing the round sheets. Thomas, yes. Question. Okay, So if
21:34
you're documenting these rounds, did you document these counts? You
21:38
obviously had to document the counts at the time that
21:41
they were called in, correct, because you've got to provide
21:44
the count slip. Thomas. Yeah. Question. So if you're preparing
21:47
the count slip, why aren't you just how long does
21:50
it take to conduct a count Thomas fifteen minutes? Ten
21:54
fifteen minutes? Question? So if you're preparing the count slip,
21:58
why aren't you just conducting them? Thomas, Like I said,
22:02
just exhausted most of the time, as you can see
22:04
by my monthly. I do a lot of overtime. Like
22:07
I said, again, I'm usually the internal. I do prefer internal,
22:11
but as you can see, I do shoe quite a
22:13
bit as well. And it's just something that just happened.
22:17
It really is no easy way of putting it. It's
22:20
just something that just happened. Question okay, Thomas regrettably. Question,
22:26
So how often would you document cell counts that you
22:28
didn't conduct Thomas? Not often at all? Question? Not often, Thomas, No. Question.
22:34
Would it be like one per shift, two per shift? Thomas? No,
22:37
Like I mean, like I said, no one's perfect and
22:40
everything like that. But I could say I've done. I
22:42
usually get up and do around, just walk around and
22:45
everything like that, and it shows that I walked around
22:48
and everything like that. But it's not very often that
22:51
I just said fuck it, excuse my language, that I
22:54
just disregard my job and my duties. It's definitely not
22:57
often at all. Question Okay, Thomas, But like I said,
23:02
he gets cut off. Question, it happened in the past.
23:06
You just don't know how it Thomas, Yeah, it did.
23:10
It's I'm sure it happened in the past. Like I said,
23:12
I'm not going to sit up and say I'm perfect.
23:15
I get everything on the dot bullet that, but I
23:17
try to get as most of it like that. Sometimes
23:20
you have bad days. Sometimes you have good days, but
23:23
with everything else, I just had one and I know
23:26
it was a bad day. Question what about rounds? How
23:29
often would they not be? Thomas? Same thing, same thing. Question,
23:34
Same thing, Thomas, same thing. You don't get as many
23:37
rounds as you can. I don't know what the number
23:40
of it's seven, ten or twelve or whatever the case
23:44
of the number it is, but you do get the
23:46
rounds in and everything. Even if you get them done,
23:49
if you don't get them done by every half hour,
23:52
you know what I mean. I've done them every hour
23:54
one time, you know, just being exhausted. Question, right, Thomas,
23:58
But I do get some done, and like I said,
24:01
this particular time, I guess I didn't get anything done.
24:06
Question Now, does it have anything to do with like
24:09
being the twelve am to eight am shift? You know?
24:12
Why do they have three separate counts at that time? Thomas?
24:15
That's an institution thing. Question? Is it what the inmates
24:19
like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they're
24:22
done more often? From that time? Thomas? It's actually changed.
24:27
Before the count was done at nine to forty five.
24:29
Now it's done at ten. I don't know the particular
24:33
reason why. That's just standard BOP protocol since I've been
24:36
there to make most counts. Question, Okay, do you know
24:41
of any other staff members that are also entering their
24:44
slip counts and rounds? Thomas? I don't know what other
24:47
staff members do. I'm locked in whenever, if I'm on
24:51
internal or if I'm on indiscernible, if I'm on one unit,
24:55
I don't know what other housing units are doing. Question. Sure,
24:59
so you mentioned you were certainly were other times that
25:02
you didn't do counts and rounds, so obviously I'm assuming
25:05
you weren't always working with Noel. Correct Thomas, Yes, I
25:09
wasn't always working with Noel. Questions, I'm assuming those counts
25:12
and rounds weren't conducted with another staff member, correct Thomas, No,
25:18
I said that were conducted. Question not all of them? Thomas? Yeah?
25:22
I did say maybe not all of them, or maybe
25:24
most of them, or maybe all of them was conducted.
25:26
You know what I mean. It's not always just not
25:30
done at all, Thomas. But I have conducted my accounts before, absolutely. Question.
25:35
But I want to make sure that we're certain that
25:38
obviously you Thomas cuts them off that I said that
25:42
I'm not perfect. Question Yeah, that you didn't conduct all
25:45
your accounts that you were documented. Thomas, you can be
25:48
certain that I'm not perfect, that I've conducted every single
25:51
one of mine all the time, but I've conducted most
25:54
of my accounts for most of the time. Question Okay, gotcha? Thomas? Absolutely.
26:01
All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here and
26:03
in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
26:05
pick up where we left off. All the information that
26:08
goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
26:12
What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
26:15
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where
26:19
we left off with Michael Thomas at his interview with
26:23
the OIG inspectors. Question so when that happens, though, would
26:28
you have conversations with staff members in general, like, hey man,
26:32
it's just a long day, let's not do this one
26:35
answer Thomas. Absolutely. That depends on so many different variables.
26:40
There's really no conversation about well, you know, we're not
26:43
going to do this or anything like that. There's really
26:46
no conversation about that question. I would just think that
26:51
if there is no if it's supposed to be done
26:53
and there is no conversation about it, that just seems
26:56
like they're never done. So what do you have to
26:59
say cuts them off? Not really he gets caught off, Like, Okay,
27:03
let's gip this one, Thomas, Like I said, I'm not
27:06
the only one that does. This actually looks a lot
27:09
different from what I'm used to seeing as you can see,
27:12
because right now these only have stars. Some people have
27:16
s by their name because they did more overtime than others.
27:20
So sometimes you could just be tired. Sometimes it doesn't
27:23
have to be a conversation. Somebody just didn't bother you
27:27
and you just didn't do the round at all. Question.
27:30
Do you almost like wait for someone to take the initiative,
27:33
and if they don't take the initiative, you both just
27:35
kind of sit there? Thomas, No, No, Like I said,
27:39
It's just it could happen in any different variable way,
27:42
you know what I mean. But most of the time,
27:44
I would say, most of the guys in there do
27:46
their accounts. Question, Okay, there are more accounts not being
27:50
done in that morning shift though, versus the day shift. Thomas. Again,
27:54
I don't know what other people do. Question sure, Thomas,
27:59
when they're about in their housing units or not. Question Okay,
28:02
And it's kind of a common practice at the MCC
28:06
not to do rounds in the shoe and the counts. Thomas, No,
28:09
it's not a common practice. I don't want to say that. Question.
28:13
You wouldn't say it's a common practice. So this was
28:16
an unusual event, is what you're saying. Thomas. Yeah, definitely
28:20
an unusual event. Question. Okay, I'm going to move on
28:26
to the next thing. Let's just talk a little bit
28:28
about the shoe layout. Do you have do you mind
28:32
just so we can get these away from you, do
28:34
you mind just initially Thomas? Okay, and dating the top
28:37
there both the rosters as well as the count slips.
28:40
We already did the rounds, correct, Thomas, the rounds, yeah, question,
28:45
So just initial and date the top. It's just to
28:48
show that where Thomas cuts them off that we spoke
28:52
about it. Question. It's what we discussed, and this one
28:56
we didn't actually go over. My bad. Thank you sir
28:59
for initial and dating those. So this is the layout
29:04
of the shoe. It looks like you said that there's
29:06
two levels in the shoe. Correct, it starts on the
29:09
ninth floor. Thomas. Yeah, it starts on the ninth floor
29:12
and goes all the way up to the tenth. Question. Okay,
29:16
are you able to tell by this by looking at
29:18
the letters which one is the first floor and which
29:21
one is the second? Thomas? No, I can't tell. Question
29:25
that isn't the cells? So like the cell numbers and stuff?
29:29
Do you know which one are like L H and
29:31
all that kind of stuff? Thomas. By the numbers, no,
29:34
I couldn't tell you which number is what? No, I
29:37
couldn't tell you what number. I really couldn't tell you
29:40
what the numbers are. Question. That's fine? So there are
29:44
they basically Thomas. I'm sure that this could be the
29:47
top and this could be. Question Are they basically identical
29:52
layouts though, Thomas? On every one except fo Yeah, every
29:56
housing unit is set up the same absolutely. Question. Okay,
30:03
so it looks like that aside from this, this says Stares.
30:06
So it says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be
30:09
on the first and which is the second? Thomas? The
30:13
kitchen is on every housing unit. Question you have to
30:17
tell me indiscernible, like as far as you like. This
30:23
is what I'm noticing as a difference. These cells look
30:26
like they're all the same aside from here it looks
30:28
like they're visiting activity. And then here it says kitchen
30:32
area and here it has this area. So by looking
30:35
at that, are you able to tell what the first
30:38
and what's the second. So I'm noticing the difference between
30:41
this and this. And like I told you, folks earlier,
30:44
this is a bit disjointed and it jumps around. So
30:47
I'm doing my best to try and keep it in
30:49
a sequence that's followable. Thomas, Right, yeah, okay, because this
30:54
says office, I would have said that this would have
30:56
been the bottom, but this says office. This got to
30:59
be the bottom because of visiting floor. But he gets
31:02
cut off. This has m over here see this hasm
31:05
in front of it, This has k question. These are
31:09
the tiers. Thomas m h yeah, okay, okay, yeah, this
31:14
is a tier. Okay question, That's what I was saying.
31:18
And Thomas, oh, in front of there, you said, I
31:21
see I heard that you said indiscernible, So h would
31:25
be this would I think K is the and it's
31:29
just all disjointed here, folks. Is where where's g G
31:32
is the top there we go? Question? That's what I thought. So,
31:37
and these are the l tier over there, Thomas. Oh,
31:40
because this is ten South. This is ten South. Question
31:45
And just since you mentioned it, what is ten South Thomas,
31:48
another housing unit inside the institution? Question? Is it the
31:52
super secure one inmate percell? Thomas? Yeah? Question it has
31:57
cameras in it. Thomas. Yeah, cameras all around and everything
32:00
like that. Question right, so high profile type of thing, Thomas,
32:05
high profile inmates and everything like that going there. Yes. Question?
32:09
All right, So did you say then this is because
32:12
that's ten South, this is the second floor? Thomas? Yes?
32:15
Question All right, I'm just going to ride on top
32:18
of this right here. Second Thomas, okay, question second floor,
32:23
And on this one, I'm just going to write first
32:25
floor Thomas. Yeah, you separated by floors, but they're all
32:29
in one place. Thomas, it's not too different separate floors.
32:34
When you're saying floor, I'm thinking ninth floor, seventh floor.
32:37
But this is all technically. Question it's all the shoe Thomas,
32:42
it's all the shoe. Yeah. Question correct, But there are
32:44
two floors in the shoe, right, Thomas. No, it's really
32:48
not well, yeah, it's not two floors question, like a
32:51
split level almost, Thomas. I don't know how to explain it.
32:55
It's not two floors like that, because then you would
32:58
say it's three floors because when you go down, you
33:01
go down the steps into one and you just go
33:03
up the stairs. But it's all in one area, like
33:07
this would all be ten south and this would be nine,
33:11
and then all this would be seven. But right here
33:14
you'll go down and you'll go up, but it's still
33:17
all on the same floor question. Okay, Thomas, it's all
33:21
on the ninth floor question. So it's all on the
33:24
ninth floor. So is the second level of the ninth
33:27
floor Thomas, the second level of the ninth floor question?
33:30
Should I change second level or second floor to second level? Thomas? Yeah,
33:35
because you say floor, you're thinking like you went from
33:38
one floor to another, like is this the third floor
33:41
and downstairs would be the second floor? Question? Sure, Thomas,
33:45
But this is all it's all one question. So ninth floor,
33:48
second level, Is that correct? Thomas? Yeah, okay, I don't
33:52
have a problem with that question. First level, all right,
33:56
So you can tell me where it is that the
33:58
officer's station is set up, where are you when you
34:01
work in the shoe? Is it all in a centralized location?
34:04
I'm assuming it's on the first floor, Thomas. It's on
34:07
the first floor, and it would be roughly. This is
34:10
kind of a setup that's crazy, but it would be
34:12
over no, because that's K and L. So this would
34:15
be it's between K and he gets cut off. So
34:19
is this the kitchen area question? This is recreation? Would
34:23
it be somewhere over like here? Thomas? Well, see, because
34:26
of the way that this is set up, it would
34:28
be somewhere over here. It's not level with the tears question. Okay, Thomas, Like,
34:34
because how this is set up? May I question? Yeah,
34:38
you can even draw Thomas, all right, Like I'm saying
34:41
it's in this space here officer station, but it's not
34:44
on the same level as the tears question. Okay, Thomas.
34:48
Like the way if I say officer station, he gets
34:51
cut off, So it's like blow it, Thomas, You're thinking
34:54
it goes down if I say officer station here, you're
34:57
thinking that it's right next to KA and M tier
35:01
But it's not like that question, Okay, Thomas, Like this,
35:05
the officer station would be somewhere on this general area,
35:08
right here, But then K Tire is over here, but
35:11
it's downstairs. Question okay Thomas. And then J Tier is
35:16
upstairs but it's still on the ninth floor. But it
35:19
just goes like I said, it has steps here, like
35:22
how is it? It got steps down till one steps
35:26
going down to two? So they're not on the same
35:29
He gets cut off. I understand question or answer by
35:32
Thomas Flora as the officer station. Question, so you think
35:38
it's actually outside here and not more like in here? Thomas, Yeah,
35:42
it's kind of like in between. I would say more
35:44
like here, like in between them. Question. Okay, so from
35:48
the officer station, can you see like the doors to
35:51
the cells? Thomas, you can see the doors to the cells? Yes,
35:55
question you can Thomas, you can see inside the cells?
35:58
Absolutely not. But I can see the doors to the cell. Question.
36:02
So you can see the doors, but you can't see
36:04
inside Thomas, you can't see inside the cells. No, you
36:08
could just see the door. Question all right. Could you
36:11
see the door to Epstein's cell? Thomas, you can see
36:14
his door. Yeah, you can see his door from there.
36:17
Question Okay, So from the officer's station, was Epstein pretty
36:20
much the closest cell to the officer station Thomas, No, question,
36:25
it wasn't Thomas, No, it's not the closest the M tier,
36:29
because if I'm not mistaken, Epstein was on the second tier,
36:32
so he would have been on L tier. He would
36:34
have been up here, So all the cells in M
36:36
tier just right here would have been the closest to
36:39
the officer station M tier, and even this tier would
36:43
have been closer than him. Question Okay, Thomas, if I'm
36:47
not mistaken, Epstein was up here. Question do you remember
36:50
which cell he was in? Thomas? This one question? Do
36:54
you mind just marking that like put a star or something.
36:57
But you could see his door but you couldn't Tom, Yeah,
37:00
you could see. He gets caught off. It wasn't the
37:03
closest question Thomas, Yeah, it's not the closest to it.
37:07
Question does it sit up here though? If you can see,
37:10
like from down here, you can see there, Thomas, I
37:13
don't know why he would sit there in that particular cell.
37:17
Question but you can see the door Thomas, yes, question okay,
37:21
And I'll just go through. And you said you couldn't
37:24
see actually inside the cell though, Thomas, No, you can't
37:26
see inside the cell. Absolutely not. Question And you approximately, like,
37:31
how far would that be from the officer's station Epstein's cell?
37:35
The estimate was fifteen feet Thomas, okay. Question does that
37:38
sound right? Thomas, We're good with that. Question. So on
37:42
August tenth, twenty nineteen, did you ever see anyone inside
37:46
of Epstein's cell? Thomas, No, question, not from the hours
37:50
of twelve am to six thirty three am. Thomas, No,
37:54
from I never seen anybody going inside the cell. Question. Okay,
37:57
so you didn't ever witness anyone it may it's members Thomas, No,
38:01
I didn't. Question okay. And were you present in the
38:05
shoe for your entire shift from twelve am to six
38:08
thirty three am? Thomas, yes. Question okay, is there like
38:12
a bathroom and everything in the shoe for you to utilize? Question? Yes,
38:16
there is, yes. Question, but you can't recall ever leaving Thomas,
38:21
I don't recall going to the bathroom. Question now, not
38:24
to the bathroom. I just meant, was there a reason
38:26
for you to leave that door that someone would have
38:29
had to unlock or lock or let you into the
38:31
control center? Would have let you in? Well Thomas, Well,
38:35
no reason. Somebody had to go upstairs and count the
38:38
other units. One of us had to go up there
38:40
and count the other unit. There's a reason. If you
38:43
want to go to the bathroom or get a drink
38:45
of water, you can go over there. But I don't
38:47
remember if I left or not. I don't really recall. Question.
38:51
So your recollection is that you remained in the shoe
38:54
for the hours of twelve am two six thirty three am. Thomas. Yes, question,
39:00
So point being, you would have known if someone went
39:03
in or out of Epstein's cell Thomas, yes, question, and
39:08
no one did Thomas, No one went in as far
39:11
as I know. No. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap
39:15
up right there, and in the next episode dealing with
39:17
the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
39:20
All of the information that goes with this episode can
39:23
be found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and
39:26
welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
39:31
we're going to get right back to the Michael Thomas
39:33
interview with the OIG investigators. Question, are you aware of
39:39
any issues with the camera system in the shoe on
39:42
August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, no question, No, did you
39:47
know if any of them weren't recording Thomas, I don't know.
39:50
Question No, and you never spoke with anybody about the
39:54
camera system Thomas, no. Question. Did someone live monitor you
39:58
all when you're in the shoe? Thomas, I don't know.
40:01
Question you don't know. Do you know if someone is
40:04
live monitoring the range of these tiers? Thomas, I don't know.
40:08
Question you're not sure, Thomas, I'm not sure. I don't
40:12
think so. Question. Do you know how like camera systems
40:15
are set up, what they're appointing at, and what they're
40:18
supposed to be covering. Thomas, I don't because some of
40:22
the tiers have cameras. I mean some of the cells
40:24
have cameras. I don't know. Question when you say some
40:27
have cameras, Thomas, I couldn't tell you. Question. Would that
40:31
be just like ten South and then ten South Lower
40:35
are the ones that have cameras? Thomas know because some
40:38
of the other tiers, some of the other cells have
40:40
cameras inside redacted question some of the other cells do
40:45
have cameras in them? Thomas, yes. Question aside from ten
40:49
South and ten South Lower Thomas yes. Question, Okay, what's
40:54
the purpose of that? Thomas, I don't know. Just when
40:58
I came here, they had cameras. Question Okay, so not
41:02
outside of their cells, but in their cells Thomas, inside
41:05
of the cell yes. Question was there a camera inside
41:09
of Epstein's cell Thomas, I don't know if his tier
41:12
particularly have cameras, but I do know some of the
41:15
tiers actually do have besides ten south lower G tier.
41:19
If I'm not mistaken, it's either G or H, but
41:21
I think it's G. Yeah, G besides G and ten South. Yeah,
41:26
some of the other cells do have cameras in them. Question. Okay,
41:30
anything that you know that would capture the inside of
41:32
Epstein's cell area? Thomas, No, not inside his cell question No, Thomas,
41:38
if he doesn't have a camera inside his cell. Question Okay,
41:42
I'm going to move on to the next section. This
41:45
is about sleeping. Do you recall sleeping in the shoe
41:48
on August tenth, twenty nineteen, between the hours of twelve
41:51
am and approximately six thirty three am. Thomas, I recall
41:56
dozing off from here and there? Yes, I do. Question
41:59
do you all how long you were asleep? Thomas? No,
42:02
I don't question. Do you recall if Noel also slept
42:05
on her shift? Thomas, I don't No, I don't question.
42:09
So you don't know how long she was asleep for Thomas,
42:12
I don't know. Question Okay, were you and Noel seated
42:16
next to each other on August tenth, twenty nineteen, Thomas,
42:20
If you're saying seated, like how me and he gets
42:22
cut off? No, we're not seated like that. Question. How
42:26
far away were you? Thomas? Maybe a foot two feet apart?
42:31
I mean, it's not too far. But we're just sitting
42:33
like right adjacent and next to each other. It's like
42:36
how it is it's like an L shape. Question Okay,
42:39
but I mean you're sitting with one another Thomas, Yeah. Question,
42:44
you're not like touching, but you're sitting with one another
42:50
in the same area, but like one person is facing
42:53
one way and another person is facing another way. Question Okay.
42:59
And you don't recall seeing Noel actually sleeping Thomas, No,
43:03
I don't recall her sleeping. Question and you did those off?
43:06
You did sleep, but you don't remember about how long? Thomas,
43:09
I do not. Question. Was it about two hours? Does
43:12
that sound about right? Thomas? I really couldn't tell you.
43:16
Question Okay, do you know if you were both asleep
43:19
at the same time? Thomas, I don't know. Question. Did
43:22
you discuss like, hey, I'm going to sleep, you stay awake? Thomas, No,
43:27
we did not. Question No, okay, no discussions were had.
43:32
Are you authorized to sleep during your shift in the
43:34
shoe Thomas, No, you're not. Question okay. Is that policy
43:39
that you're not allowed to sleep? Like, how do you
43:41
know that you're not authorized to sleep? Thomas, You're just
43:45
not allowed to sleep at work. I don't know if
43:46
it's policy or not. Question okay. And you knew at
43:50
the time obviously, Thomas, yeah, question okay. And just to
43:55
go back, you know at the time you had you
43:58
knew that you were falsified those records at the time
44:01
of the rounds counts and those count slips on August ninth,
44:06
when you were actually certifying that you knew that you're
44:09
incorrectly certifying them Thomas, the count slip question, yeah, Thomas, yes.
44:15
Question Okay. Have you ever fallen asleep previously while on
44:18
duty at the MCC Thomas, I probably have. Question yeah Thomas, yeah.
44:25
Question is that kind of like understood if you work
44:28
that shift that you kind of can doze off? Thomas,
44:31
no answer, no question. Is it a lot less active
44:35
during the hours of twelve am Thomas. I mean, of course,
44:39
everybody's asleep at that time. All inmates are asleep at
44:42
that time, but it's a lot no body is no
44:45
interaction or anything like that. So I mean sometimes you
44:48
get bored and you know, I mean, you can sleep
44:50
through that. You just nod a little bit. It's happened
44:54
with me a few times. But I mean I do
44:56
get up from time to time and try to drink
44:59
and definitely got a k red bull on hand from
45:01
now on. Question Okay, what about Noel? Have you worked
45:06
with her in the past? Thomas, I don't remember. Maybe
45:09
I have. I don't know exactly. I've been here fourteen years. Question,
45:14
so do you recall her sleeping in the past? Thomas, No,
45:16
I don't. Question what about other people that you work with?
45:20
Do you recall other people that would also sleep? Thomas No,
45:24
I can't recall if they were sleeping or not redacted. Question.
45:28
You are just taking ownership for yourself. You know you
45:31
fell asleep, but he gets cut off by Thomas. That's it.
45:35
Question Okay, did Noel ever tried to wake you up
45:38
when you were sleeping? Thomas? I don't recall. Question No Thomas, No,
45:43
I don't think so. Question did anyone report that you
45:47
know of? Did anyone contact you to try to wake
45:49
you up? If people were watching you on the cameras,
45:52
did anybody say hey, wake up? Or did Noel ever
45:55
say hey, you've got to wake up Thomas? No question. No.
46:00
Where is the CE required to be during their shift
46:02
in the shoe? Is it just all over the area? Thomas? Yeah?
46:06
Question just walking around? Just within the shoe Thomas, it's
46:10
just with just guess in the shoe, well some other
46:15
you're required to be inside the shoe? Question? Is there
46:19
always two people required to be in the shoe at
46:21
all times? Can there ever be one person left alone
46:24
in the shoe? Thomas? I've seen when it's been one person.
46:28
If I'm not mistaken, it's required for us to be
46:31
I think a minimum of two. Question. Okay, so if
46:34
you need to actually leave the shoe during that shift
46:38
when there's only two people there, what do you do
46:41
if two people are supposed to be there? Do you
46:43
have to call and see if someone else can come
46:45
and replace you? Question? If you're talking about life for emergencies,
46:49
maybe of course somebody has to replace you, and maybe
46:53
that could be just shorthanded and you just left alone.
46:56
But I know sometimes we used to have to count
46:59
next door. We used to go count nine the ninth floor,
47:02
so it just varies. Question. Okay, so do you have
47:07
like a certain amount of time that you're allowed to
47:09
leave one person alone, Like, for instance, if you've got
47:12
to go and get help with the count, are you
47:14
allowed to say, hey, I'll be right back, and you
47:17
get like a ten minute window or anything like that.
47:20
How does that work? Thomas? I don't know if it's
47:25
a particular number or anything like that. But if you're
47:27
going to go count eight, or if you're going to
47:29
count ten and then you're going to count nine, that's
47:33
no particular time question. Okay, Thomas, you know what I mean.
47:37
People walk different, and I probably walk faster than say
47:40
mister redacted or yourself, where some people might be walking fast.
47:45
As far as I know, there's no particular set time question.
47:49
So you already said you didn't leave the shoe on
47:51
August tenth. Did you know if Noel left the shoe
47:55
at all on August tenth? Thomas, I don't recall. I
47:58
don't remember. I don't remember. Question. You just know that
48:03
you were there the whole time, Thomas, if I didn't
48:06
count ten, I don't know if I counted ten or not.
48:09
I don't remember if I counted ten or not. Question, Now,
48:12
if you count ten, is that considered leaving the shoe,
48:15
because isn't that count part of the shoe? Thomas, I've seen.
48:19
That's a different number, it's a different floor. You're not
48:22
inside the shoe, you're inside ten South, which is a
48:25
totally different place. Question. Okay, but you don't have to
48:29
go through like control and all those door locks. That's
48:32
all kind of within the general shoe area. Thomas. Control
48:36
has to pop the door. Question. Oh, they do have
48:39
to pop the door, Thomas. They do have to pop
48:42
the door for you to get inside. Sam processed. You
48:45
take the phone off the hook, You ring the officer
48:47
inside the control and he has to pop the door.
48:50
And then once you're out, once Control pops that outer door,
48:53
the officer inside has to open up the inner door. Question. Okay,
48:57
so it's its own separate unit, Thomas. It's its own
49:01
separate unit, just like any say, if I go to
49:05
he gets cut off. So there's two officers at twelve
49:08
and six thirty, Thomas cuts him off. No, it's one
49:12
officer up there. Question, there's only one officer up there, Thomas.
49:16
It's one officer up there, so that's why somebody has
49:20
to go up there and count. Question Okay, is it
49:24
always from twelve am to eight am one of the
49:28
people that are in the shoe always has to assist
49:30
ten South Thomas. Most of the time they assist ten South,
49:35
and sometimes more often than not, they have to assist
49:38
nine North as well. Question okay, and what's nine North Thomas,
49:43
the unit across the hall. Question is that also like
49:46
a special housing unit type of situation? Thomas, No, it's
49:50
a regular housing unit. Question Okay, But you don't know
49:53
if that's against policy or not. Thomas. I don't know
49:56
if it's against policy. If you're just helping out because
49:59
you're sure handed? Question sure Thomas, short handed? Then question
50:04
all right, are you guys authorized when you're in the
50:06
shoe to be able to access the computers for your
50:09
own personal reasons? Like are you allowed to do internet
50:12
searches and things like that limited personal use? Thomas? I
50:16
don't know if you are or aren't authorized or not,
50:19
But I don't know if it's unauthorized or not. Question
50:23
you're not even sure Thomas, I'm not question. They don't
50:26
talk to you about like what you can and can't do. Thomas.
50:29
I know you're locked. You can't just shoot, search Facebook
50:32
or YouTube and those things are not allowed on those
50:35
types of computers redacted. Oh, okay, you're not allowed to
50:39
do like email or like Facebook. Thomas. You can't do
50:42
any of that stuff. And you can't access as far
50:45
as I know, you can't access your own personal email.
50:48
You have the job email and everything like that, and
50:51
that's about it. Question are you allowed to do like
50:54
regular internet searches though, and things like that? Thomas, I
50:58
really don't know, no Thomas, No. Question. Do you recall
51:03
using the internet on August tenth? Thomas, I wrote my
51:06
name and it says, yeah, I recall using the Internet
51:09
at the time. Question okay, do you remember what you
51:12
were searching for? Thomas? On it says motorcycle? Question motorcycles?
51:17
All right, But do you know if that was authorized
51:20
or not authorized? Thomas, I don't know. Question, so you're
51:24
not sure? Okay, are you aware if Noel was also
51:27
utilizing the computer? Thomas, I don't know what she was on.
51:31
Question No, but do you know if she was using
51:34
the computer? Thomas yeah, if she was, I don't know.
51:37
Like I said, we're facing two totally different directions. Question. Sure,
51:42
do you know where you were seated, what desk you
51:44
were seated at, where you happen to be seated at
51:47
the OIC desk? Thomas, there's no specifically this is the
51:52
OIC station and this is somebody else here. It's not
51:56
labeled that way. Question, all right. The reason why I
51:58
ask that there was a sign on the OIC's desk
52:03
that said Epstein is required to have a cell mate.
52:06
So I was told that the OIC had like a
52:08
specific desk. Do you call recall seeing that sign? Thomas,
52:12
No question on any of the computer or desk areas, Thomas,
52:17
I don't question that Epstein's required to have a cell mate. Thomas, No,
52:23
I don't. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here,
52:26
and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're
52:28
gonna pick up where we left off. All the information
52:32
that goes with this episode can be found in the
52:34
description box.