Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host Christina Kantzavelos interviews Charmaine Husum

Transcript

Guest Host Christina Kantzavelos interviews Charmaine Husum · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of the Trauma
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Theverst podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
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  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
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  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
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  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
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  Speaker 2: Hey Charmaine, Hi Christina, so lovely to be here with
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  Speaker 2: you today.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you on here for folks
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  Speaker 3: listening or watching to hear what tools and resources you.
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  Speaker 4: Offer, including your new book.
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  Speaker 3: But before we share all of that, please let us
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  Speaker 3: know about your practice and how it evolved into what
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  Speaker 3: it is today.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm a registered art therapist and somatic counselor.
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  Speaker 2: I work with people to support them in healing from
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  Speaker 2: symptoms of trauma as well as depression, anxiety, and one
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  Speaker 2: of the areas that I focus in or ways to
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  Speaker 2: support both the preparation and integration of psychedelic experiences or
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  Speaker 2: non ordinary states of any kind. So the way that
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  Speaker 2: my practice evolved really was from a lot of my
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  Speaker 2: own personal experiences, a lot of different influences that have
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  Speaker 2: been a part of my life like meditation, sound healing.
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  Speaker 2: I'm a Kundlina yoga teacher. Indigenous traditions that I've been
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  Speaker 2: trained in also really add to what I offer. Other
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  Speaker 2: areas I'm trained in as internal family systems, transpersonal psychology.
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  Speaker 2: So these are all pieces that I incorporate into my
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  Speaker 2: work with others.
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  Speaker 3: Amazing And for those who don't know what are non
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  Speaker 3: ordinary states?
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  Speaker 4: If you were to just say.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, non ordinary states like we're talking about psychedelics,
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  Speaker 2: really here in ways to support a psychedelic journey to
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  Speaker 2: be long lasting. But it's not necessarily that we're needing
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  Speaker 2: to use a psychedelic to get to this place of
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  Speaker 2: needing integration. So non ordinary states could be using breathwork
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  Speaker 2: like holotropic breath work, or it could be having a
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  Speaker 2: Kundalini awakening. Deep transformative meditations can bring us to a
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  Speaker 2: non ordinary state or an ecstatic state. Ecstatic dance can
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  Speaker 2: be another one near death experiences, and interestingly enough, even
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  Speaker 2: the act of creating art can bring one into a
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  Speaker 2: non ordinary state. So a non ordinary state is basically
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  Speaker 2: any state of consciousness that is different from our waking reality,
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  Speaker 2: and it can mean a lot of things. For a
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  Speaker 2: lot of people. But the potential for healing is huge
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  Speaker 2: if we are able to properly integrate these experiences.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for that beautiful, perfect explanation, because so often
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  Speaker 3: we associate that with strictly psychedelics, and that isn't the
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  Speaker 3: only route for us to get to get to that state.
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  Speaker 3: And even without psychedelics, it's so important to have, in
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  Speaker 3: my opinion, that assisted therapy piece attached to it, right,
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  Speaker 3: because to help us understand, prepare, integrate what comes up
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  Speaker 3: during and afterwards, even before things can come up before
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  Speaker 3: we even enter into that state.
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  Speaker 2: So thank you absolutely, And I just want to say
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  Speaker 2: oftentimes people may feel called through their dreams or through
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  Speaker 2: meditations to these states, right if they're using a specific medicine,
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  Speaker 2: or there could be some information coming to the surface
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  Speaker 2: before one actually has a non ordinary state. That is
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  Speaker 2: kind of a just a prelude into what will be experiencing.
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  Speaker 4: So amen, Amen, I know I personally had that as well.
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  Speaker 4: I'm sure too, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know one thing that we often don't
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  Speaker 2: talk about, something that I incorporate into the work I do,
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  Speaker 2: is we experience non ordinary states every night when we
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  Speaker 2: go to sleep with our dreams. So having a relationship
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  Speaker 2: to our dreams understanding what they might mean for us
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  Speaker 2: can be another non ordinary state that we can utilize.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think for me it's been life changing
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  Speaker 3: to get a dream journal, like to really create a
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  Speaker 3: relationship with my dreams. And in fact, you know, as
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  Speaker 3: we as we the more we journal, I think, the
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  Speaker 3: more we remember our dreams and details, and it's such
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  Speaker 3: a it can be such a beautiful insight into what
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  Speaker 3: we're experiencing and letting us see it from a different perspective.
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  Speaker 3: And you offer courses correct, yea, at this time, can
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  Speaker 3: you tell us more about them?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been training professionals and experiencers on ways to
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  Speaker 2: utilize therapeutic creative techniques to support preparation and integration for
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  Speaker 2: maybe the last seven years. I've been offering these courses.
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  Speaker 2: I have another one coming up here September twenty second,
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  Speaker 2: which really trains people, but teaches people, whether you're a
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  Speaker 2: professional or someone who's experienced a non ordinary state or
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  Speaker 2: using a psychedelic goes through specific protocols on ways that
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  Speaker 2: we can incorporate art and art therapy into our integration
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  Speaker 2: and preparation in order to support us, So yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: I think it's important to name too. There's a difference
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  Speaker 2: between making art, which can feel very therapeutic, and art therapy.
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  Speaker 2: So art therapy is something that is offered by someone
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  Speaker 2: trained as an art therapist, which requires postgraduate education a
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  Speaker 2: master's agree in art therapy, and so it's we're using
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  Speaker 2: clinical approaches with creative processes. So yeah, I feel like
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  Speaker 2: there's a myths there in psychedelic assisted therapy where the
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  Speaker 2: creation or the utilization of therapeutic art really enhances the
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  Speaker 2: experience for it to be long lasting.
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  Speaker 3: M This is a random question, but how do you
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  Speaker 3: feel about experiencers using art during an experience?
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  Speaker 2: If it's available to them, it can be very powerful,
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  Speaker 2: and I've heard trying that I don't. My experience has
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  Speaker 2: been and those that I work with is that. And
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  Speaker 2: also the research is that it's not very accessible right
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  Speaker 2: when we are in a non ordinary state or when
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  Speaker 2: we're under the influence of a psychedelic to use the
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  Speaker 2: art materials themselves. But what is extremely supportive is to
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  Speaker 2: use art therapy or have an art therapy session before
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  Speaker 2: one's experience and then taking that art into their journey.
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  Speaker 2: So when we're using art in this way, what we're
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  Speaker 2: doing is we are taking pieces from our unconscious and
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  Speaker 2: from within us and moving them outside of us now.
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  Speaker 2: So now we have something tangible, something we can look
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  Speaker 2: at and hold and feel and remember as we move
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  Speaker 2: into our journey. So an activity I do with people
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  Speaker 2: I work with is in preparation, and I do this
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  Speaker 2: with most of my clients that I'm working with to
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  Speaker 2: heal traumas. We are creating a tangible representation of what
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  Speaker 2: healing feels like inside, about what safety feels like inside.
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  Speaker 2: So I may use language depending on who I'm working with,
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  Speaker 2: you know, creating an image of our soul or our essence.
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  Speaker 2: So we do this in combination with guided meditation, and
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  Speaker 2: then I invite one to create what they felt in
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  Speaker 2: that meditation that connects them to their self energy. And
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  Speaker 2: this has been super very powerful for ones moving into
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  Speaker 2: their journey. So now they have a representation of what
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  Speaker 2: strength feels like inside, what safety feels like inside. And
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  Speaker 2: what it does is it just allows them to go
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  Speaker 2: deeper into their psychedelic journey because they have within them
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  Speaker 2: this sense of safety, right, because it can be really
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  Speaker 2: difficult moving into these experiences. Really we're pulled out of ourselves,
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  Speaker 2: So how can we remain in our body?
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  Speaker 3: I completely agree with that, and I've been on the
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  Speaker 3: receiving end of it, and I can just tell everyone
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  Speaker 3: how amazing and powerful and beautiful it is, because yeah,
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  Speaker 3: we do. We do have that safety within us. It's
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  Speaker 3: it's a matter of really recognizing it, seeing it, feeling it,
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  Speaker 3: to be able to access it during right during that
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  Speaker 3: state and even just out in the world in a stressful,
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  Speaker 3: you know, situation. Before we hopped on, I was just saying, like,
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  Speaker 3: how you know, I've been in a semi stressful situation,
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  Speaker 3: and you know, Charmaine has provided me with tools that
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  Speaker 3: I've been able to access through through these exercises, So
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  Speaker 3: even without being in a you know, non ordinary state,
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  Speaker 3: I can I can also say that confidently say it's
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  Speaker 3: also helped these stressful states as well, because we have that,
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  Speaker 3: like I said, that that place of strengthen of peace
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  Speaker 3: within ourselves that we can we can access if needed.
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  Speaker 3: It's just a matter of us connecting, really connecting to it.
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  Speaker 3: And and gosh, the art. I mean, I've gotten to
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  Speaker 3: see some of some of the art.
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  Speaker 4: From folks who've worked with you too.
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  Speaker 3: It's just it's all you know, it's it's across the
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  Speaker 3: born and it's also like just fascinating.
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  Speaker 4: Interesting, cool, beautiful.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you can attribute a bunch of different words
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  Speaker 3: to it. So yeah, what what you do is really
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  Speaker 3: fascinating and what you offer. So with the courses though,
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  Speaker 3: you don't have do you have to be a clinician
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  Speaker 3: in order to take the courses?
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  Speaker 2: No, okay, doesn't have to be a clinician. The courses
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  Speaker 2: are I have some different courses, some are on demand
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  Speaker 2: that incorporate a lot more guendolina, yoga and meditations, sacred geometry,
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  Speaker 2: and so I find that those courses can be really
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  Speaker 2: supportive for those wanting to move through something on their own.
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  Speaker 2: So they are a little more geared towards one who's
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  Speaker 2: had an experience and then is wanting to move forward
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  Speaker 2: with learning those techniques and protocols on their own. The
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  Speaker 2: live courses that I teach, I've been teaching through the
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  Speaker 2: New York Therapy Institute, and those ones have been focused
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  Speaker 2: more towards clinicians, doctors, psychologists, guides, psychedelic guides, but we
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  Speaker 2: also have some people sign up that are ready for
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  Speaker 2: that that are experiencers. Right, So yeah, anyone can take
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  Speaker 2: those courses, but they're intended to really teach those specific
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  Speaker 2: protocols on using a harm reduction lens too. Right, That's
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  Speaker 2: a huge focus of my work is both trauma informed
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  Speaker 2: and a harm reduction lens, but teaching people to use
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  Speaker 2: these protocols and tools so they're not going back to
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  Speaker 2: the medicine over and over again. So they're really instilling
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  Speaker 2: in both preparation and integration that sense of the healer
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  Speaker 2: being within right, So using a trans personal psychology language,
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  Speaker 2: there that inner healer. And so when we're able to
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  Speaker 2: identify that that is inside of us, the medicine that
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  Speaker 2: we took, the energy of that is now inside of us,
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  Speaker 2: or the experience we had, we can access that experience energetically.
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  Speaker 2: We're able to utilize those tools moving forward in life.
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  Speaker 3: M Yeah, And I think that's the the importance of
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  Speaker 3: that therapeutic component. When we decide to sit with a medicine,
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  Speaker 3: it's like, how do we integrate that experience in our
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  Speaker 3: day to day living so we don't feel this this
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  Speaker 3: you know, constant need, I must go back to the
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  Speaker 3: met in order to experience this, I must go back
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  Speaker 3: to the medicine. Creating this sort of dependency that we
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  Speaker 3: sometimes sometimes hear about. It's not too often, but sometimes
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  Speaker 3: we hear about it, and this helps us remember, like
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  Speaker 3: that what it showed us is within us forever.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah I wanted to say there, or sorry, go ahead, no,
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  Speaker 2: go ahead, go ahead? Yeah, you know, you know, we
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  Speaker 2: know or you know we hear that psychedelics are not addictive,
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  Speaker 2: and they are not because you need the more you take,
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  Speaker 2: the more you would need, right, And so what is
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  Speaker 2: addictive though, is looking for heightened experiences or looking outside
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  Speaker 2: of ourselves for healing. And so because what I find
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  Speaker 2: is that the medicines and non ordinary states as well,
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  Speaker 2: but they can really bring trauma to the surface. And
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  Speaker 2: so it's so important to be holding that trauma informed
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  Speaker 2: lens each step of the way as we're working through
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  Speaker 2: our journey, because it's we never know what might come up,
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  Speaker 2: and especially in using art in this way our therapy,
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  Speaker 2: we're also trusting that our psyche protects us. It's only
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  Speaker 2: going to bring up what we are ready to hold
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  Speaker 2: and handle. The medicines are as gentle always right, they
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  Speaker 2: can bring things up that we may not have expected,
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  Speaker 2: and so it's really that container we hold afterwards that
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  Speaker 2: supports the longer healing, agreed.
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  Speaker 3: And I think the resourcing that you do in advance
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  Speaker 3: as well with that nervous system component and like you said,
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  Speaker 3: finding that piece inside so that if these things come up,
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  Speaker 3: it's like yes, you know, yes, this is challenging and
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  Speaker 3: I have the strength to be with it, to move
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  Speaker 3: through it, to feel it, to heal it.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, all of all of those, all of those things.
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  Speaker 3: And you know you mentioned sacred geometry earlier, So for
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  Speaker 3: those who may not be familiar with sacred geometry, can
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: you speak to so even you know have written about
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: it and that will lead us actually to your books
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  Speaker 3: as well.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So sacred geometry is it's close to my heart.
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  Speaker 2: It's something that I enjoy engaging in artistically. It's not
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  Speaker 2: something I would always I would necessarily bring into an
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  Speaker 2: art therapy session because it can be difficult for some.
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  Speaker 2: But I do find sacred geometry is something that seems
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  Speaker 2: inherently connected to psychedelics. Right if you look at the
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  Speaker 2: work of Alex Gray or Martina Hoffman or you know,
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  Speaker 2: some of these psychedelic artists, a lot of the imagery
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  Speaker 2: reflects things that may be seen, visuals that people may
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  Speaker 2: have while they're in a psychedelic state. But really, what
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  Speaker 2: sacred geometry is is this kind of inherent wisdom of
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  Speaker 2: nature for life to survive and thrive. We see it everywhere.
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  Speaker 2: We are geometrical beings. Our DNA is geometric. We see
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  Speaker 2: it in plants, in flowers, in trees, right, they are
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  Speaker 2: designed in order for water to move to their roots
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  Speaker 2: in the fastest way possible. And so yeah, there's many
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  Speaker 2: different forms of sacred geometry, many different like actual images.
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  Speaker 2: If we look at the flower of life or Metatron's
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  Speaker 2: cube or pie or a Fibonacci sequence, there's there's many
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  Speaker 2: different images we can look at. But I find it
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  Speaker 2: powerful as a tool even to look at, right, So
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily creating, but drawing or sorry of coloring it in,
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  Speaker 2: or or just looking at an image of sacred geometry
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  Speaker 2: can be powerful in a way that there's a language
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  Speaker 2: being spoken in that medicine that I think reaches us
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  Speaker 2: on a cellular level. So that's my own personal piece
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  Speaker 2: of that. It's not always something I bring into my
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  Speaker 2: therapeutic work.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but you're right, even just just looking at
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  Speaker 3: it is super to me, healing and powerful like a
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  Speaker 3: honeycomb for example, I mean you just I could just
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  Speaker 3: watch it for hours of different flowers. I mean everything.
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  Speaker 3: Sacred geometry is in everything. It is is everywhere. It's
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  Speaker 3: a matter of how we how we view, how we see,
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  Speaker 3: and I feel like connecting with it in this way
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  Speaker 3: helps us connect, you know, to nature, and connect to
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  Speaker 3: ourselves something.
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  Speaker 2: The name with that too is the importance. So I
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  Speaker 2: feel that art or and therapeutic art is is fundamentally
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  Speaker 2: important in this work that we do, but as is meditation.
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  Speaker 2: And so when I use sacred geometry in meditation, I
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  Speaker 2: you know, just looking at an image with a softened gaze,
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  Speaker 2: there's different lines that maybe appear brighter and then others soften.
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  Speaker 2: And I love the work of Robin Carhart Harris right
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  Speaker 2: and the correlations that he's made here with between what's
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  Speaker 2: happening in the brain and the default mode network going offline.
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  Speaker 2: How we see that when people meditate, we see that
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  Speaker 2: when people are using psychedelics, but we also see that
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  Speaker 2: when we're making art in the brain. And I would
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  Speaker 2: like for the research to be done on this correlation,
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  Speaker 2: right that it feels like something's amiss here. Why are
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  Speaker 2: we not including art in this process of psychedelic assisted therapy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's let's bring KRT onto on here and have
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  Speaker 3: a discussion. Yeah, because it's true, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: great question. And I hope I hope it does happen.
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  Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, there's there's so much to say about
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  Speaker 3: art and there's so little research giving us providing us
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  Speaker 3: this information.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I can feel it sensationally, so can you.
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  Speaker 4: But it'd be nice to have research backing it up
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  Speaker 4: and going nope.
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  Speaker 3: This is this is why, this is why it works,
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  Speaker 3: that is why it's so it is so therapeutic and powerful.
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  Speaker 2: That's more research coming to the surface. I'm so grateful
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  Speaker 2: for that. Even you know, my book is is there's
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: a ton of research in in my newest book, Psychedelics
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  Speaker 2: and Art Therapy. But yeah, more MRI functional MRIs need
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  Speaker 2: to be done about you know, what is happening in
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  Speaker 2: the brain and why is there this connection between meditation, psychedelics,
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  Speaker 2: and art therapy, and how can we utilize all of
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  Speaker 2: those to really feel safer when we move into these
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  Speaker 2: medicine journeys, because that's what is happening for those using
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: all three of these components.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, amen, And again, working with you do you
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  Speaker 3: do combine all of it together, so hence why your
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: sessions are so powerful, And we'll get to those in
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  Speaker 3: a moment, but I want to go back to the book.
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  Speaker 4: Can you tell us more about your latest book?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, my latest book, Psychedelics and Art Therapy, a
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  Speaker 2: trama for manual for somatic self Discovery, published through Routledge.
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  Speaker 2: It's just been this labor of love, right, all of
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  Speaker 2: my work in research over the last it's been twelve
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  Speaker 2: years already that I've been working in this field with
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  Speaker 2: a focus on using art, therapeutic art to support preparation
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  Speaker 2: and integration. Yeah, it's uh, it's been a joy to create,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm super grateful for all the endorsements. I know,
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  Speaker 2: is Stan Groff endorsed it, Brigitte Graf, Bruce, No big
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  Speaker 2: deal because I know I'm like, what these guys lib
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  Speaker 2: all on the same page. And also I'm loving, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the work of Brigitte Graf too. I don't think that's
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  Speaker 2: spoken about enough and her her book on holotropic art
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  Speaker 2: is just amazing. So yeah, it's been a joy creating it.
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  Speaker 2: What I've done in the book is really the first
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  Speaker 2: half focused on different theory that can support people in
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  Speaker 2: learning about ways to use art within psychedelics, I too.
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  Speaker 2: And then the second part is is actual activities, art
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  Speaker 2: activity and meditations that I recommend kind of more of
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  Speaker 2: a manual for people to move through those nine different
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  Speaker 2: protocols I've created. But what's different about my work, I
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  Speaker 2: find is the lens I take with what I teach
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  Speaker 2: really has a strong harm reduction focus to it. I
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  Speaker 2: believe that the medicines are powerful, but I'm not an
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: advocate for people to use illegal drugs. They're illegal in
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: many places, and so I don't advocate for that. What
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I advocate for is working towards developing and strengthening that
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: connection to self, that connection to a spirit within ourselves.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And so in the book, I speak a lot about
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: the shadow sides too of this work. And really what
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: brought me to feeling comfortable enough to come forward with
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: the work I do, because that's whole other piece, right,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: is that we've been moving through this psychedelic renaissance and
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: these medicines are illegal in a lot of places, and
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: so what kind of pushed me to want to share
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: what I was doing in a larger format with a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: published book is a friend of mine dying after using
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: these medicines and then another colleague dying both from suicide.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: And so what I see with the clients I work
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: with as well, is that because I work with trauma,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: so many are going to these medicines as this magic bullet,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: like this is going to be it, This is finally
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: going to heal me or help me heal from symptoms
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: of trauma. I don't believe that it is a magic bullet.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe for some it's been, and that's fantastic, But in
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: order to properly hold spaces for people as therapists, I
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: think we really need to recognize the importance of proper
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: preparation and integration and have those in place for our
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: clients before we're moving, before one is moving into a journey,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: because it can be very destabilizing if one hasn't had
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: the proper support or done the work needed beforehand.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Amen.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Amen, I think like we we have this tendency to
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: romanticize the just plant medicine and psychedelics in general, and
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: we don't think of, you know, all all of the
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: things that can that can happen and have happened, and
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: the importance of that assisted therapy component, like what that's
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: why it's so important and ensuring that we have the
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: vessel to be able to hold what comes up if
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: in when, if and when it does. And I don't
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: feel very dissimilar about things like em E, M, d
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: R and other modalities. Right when we go into them
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: too soon without the preparation, the resourceing, the nervous system support,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: things can also arise right that we're not exactly ready for.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: So it's just as I think as clinicians like who
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: are who are listening and watching right now, really knowing
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: and under and understanding that is vital for the for
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: the safety of the client, the patient you are working.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: With, absolutely, yeah, and something that you know, kind of
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: coming back to that art directive I spoke of at
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: the beginning, where you know, we're tapping into that sense
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: of safety and then creating an image of that. Really,
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: you know, the idea of that is understanding the difference
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: between a trauma var text and a healing vortext And
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I believe it's Peter Levine speaks about this right that
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: we really need to create and know what does a
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: healing vortex feel like in our body? What does it
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: feel like to be in that? So then we can
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: dip our toes into the traumatic piece, but we're not
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: being sucked into the vortex of that. And psychedelics especially
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: are not always gentle and they can pull us into that.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, clinicians supporting clients, we need to be
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: aware of that and and aware of how do we
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: create the healing vortex before the potential of a trauma
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: vortex is it comes to the surface.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Amen, Amen, Amen, amen, Yeah, thank you, thank you for that,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: and thank you for writing about that in the book,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: and for for clinicians more interested in your work. Where
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: can they Where can they find the book? Where can
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: they find your courses?
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Where can they consult you?
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah? On my website is probably the best place. Center
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: of the Heart dot com spelled c N t R E,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: not e R, and all the links for my work
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: are there.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: This book is published through Routledge, so there's a link
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: on my website to that, but you can also find
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that on Routledge's website. My other book Sacred Geometry and
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: actually let me.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: Grab it, ring it, show it off.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is an older version, but anyway,
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Sacred Geometry Visionary Art is uh, my other book, so
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: that can be found on Amazon, and yeah, both are
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: are intended just to support connecting to ourselves, connecting to spirit,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: connecting to the medicine or to our experience in a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: way that we're able to thrive in life right that
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: we're not we're not just surviving.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: That's that's the goal.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: And I also want to say that with the coloring book,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: like such a beautiful mindfulness tool and exercise. So if
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: you're looking for more mindful next activities, you want to
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: turn to a.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Page I do. Yeah, and this is one of the
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: preliminary ones that was sent to me. But so it
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: doesn't have everything, but let's see, yees, I took the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: colors out of all of my artwork and then created
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: these images to be colored, and they're all based on
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: different sacred geometry images the Chakras. There's meditations to go
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: with it. And then in the other version of the book,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I included all of the original pictures as well, So
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: the ones you see at the background, this one doesn't
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: have it in it, but yeah, so you can cut
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: those out and use them as a tool for meditation
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: So so cool, really amazing. And then for clients interested
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: in working with you, they can also find you right
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: on your website and also shout out to the fact
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: that you meet with us for ninety minutes, right, it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: not just an hour. Can you just share little bit
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: about why ninety minutes instead of the arbitrary sixty minutes.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: So many therapists, I'm like, you, we go over, but
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: why do you do it?
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: What's your reason?
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question that comes up a lot
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: with people when you know they could be surprised by that.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: But really it's because of my own experience is in
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: therapy where I just feel like we're opening things up
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: at sixty minutes. Because I work with attachment as well,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: which is also a big part of my book Psychedelics
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and Art Therapy and the process of integration, I feel
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: like it's important to have that extra time right and space,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: and so I just include that in the same price
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: that I would charge people for an hour, because it
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: helps me too to go deeper with clients and support
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: support whatever is needed. But I feel it's important when
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: we're working with trauma especially, and attachment is usually a
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: part of that, reparenting that we're given that extra time
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: to support healing.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I cannot agree any anymore. In that I just I
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: think like the lot of a lot of the stuff
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: comes out's like we finally got over what happened in
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: the last you know, a week or two weeks since
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: I last you know, met with them, and we really
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: get into and get into the things at that hour
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: mark usually so and it's better also, I think you
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: basically so it's for my nervous system for us to
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: not feel like rushed or saying that thought or feeling
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: for for next time, because we usually never do.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: We usually never do.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: I sat on both sides right of the couch, so
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: to speak, and I know, I know how that goes.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: So thank you for that, and I think it's good
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: for other clinicians to hear on that perspective as well. So, yeah, Charry,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: thank you for coming on here and sharing your vast
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: amount of knowledge and wisdom with us. Is there one,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: like one takeaway for for listeners or viewers that you'd
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: like to share?
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a huge takeaway or something that I'd like to offer.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And maybe you know people have heard this in other spaces,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: But the medicine is within you. The power is within
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: you to heal, to expand, and psychedelics in particular they
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: open up a window for us, and it's an amazing
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: window that opens. But it's the work we do afterwards
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: in walking through that and preparing ourselves for that, which
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: create lasting healing.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you so much. I'm taking that in
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: And thank you to all who've come on here to
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: listen and to watch. And yeah, I've been so open
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: minded about this conversation.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: We appreciate you. Thank you again, Charmaine, my pleasure.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Christine. Yeah, thank you guys here today.
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: All right, lots of love everyone one, take care