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John Todd is keeping Montana wild · A New Angle

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: This is A New Angle, conversations about how we're doing and where we're going.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Justin Angle.
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  SPEAKER_00: This show is supported by the Headwaters Foundation,
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  SPEAKER_00: First Security Bank, and the University of Montana College of Business.
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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: Hey folks, welcome back and thanks for tuning in.
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  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm speaking with John Todd, Executive Director of Wild Montana.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wild Montana's mission is to unite and mobilize communities to keep Montana wild.
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  SPEAKER_01: People should really put public lands and conservation and this thing
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  SPEAKER_01: that defines us as Montanans at the very top of their list.
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  SPEAKER_00: Since 1958,
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  SPEAKER_00: Wild Montana has played a key role in securing 16 wilderness designations
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  SPEAKER_00: and protecting millions of acres of public lands.
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  SPEAKER_00: JT, thanks for joining me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
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  SPEAKER_00: So tell us, where did you grow up and what did your parents do?
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  SPEAKER_01: I grew up right in the middle of Tennessee,
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  SPEAKER_01: so mostly on an old farm about 50 miles out of Nashville.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's been in my family for a really long time.
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  SPEAKER_01: And my dad was a pharmacist,
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  SPEAKER_01: and my mom spent all her time and energy raising three very feral,
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  SPEAKER_01: wild boys, of which I'm the third.
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  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
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  SPEAKER_00: How did you make your way to Montana?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why was that on your radar screen?
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  SPEAKER_01: I had a really tight budget of about $300,
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  SPEAKER_01: which allowed me to apply to maybe 10 schools that I was looking at out west
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  SPEAKER_01: to transfer from.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I started college in Tennessee, but knew I needed to make a run for it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: The University of Montana accepted all my credits that I had at the time,
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  SPEAKER_01: um, was affordable and welcoming.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what sold me was I think they were on the cover or inside of outside magazines,
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  SPEAKER_01: top 10 outdoor towns to live in.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is just, it's just spoken.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got to go.
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  SPEAKER_00: And joined Wild Montana in 2012.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is Wild Montana?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why do you exist?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the oldest, largest public lands conservation organization in Montana.
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  SPEAKER_01: We exist for the sole purpose of making sure that the place that we love and
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  SPEAKER_01: the things that keep us here,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is for a lot of folks like me,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's our public lands, that a few of those places stay just the way they are.
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  SPEAKER_01: In a time when the state is changing dramatically,
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  SPEAKER_01: when people are moving in, we're being discovered and not to pass judgment on that.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of good that comes from some of those changes.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of demand for Montana.
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  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: But the reason that people come here,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not because we have the best weather or the best beaches or great shopping.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're coming here because there's big wide open spaces.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's big tall mountains.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's places to float on the weekends down the river.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're coming here for our public lands.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And these big natural open spaces.
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  SPEAKER_01: And our goal is to make sure that some places on those public lands stay the way they are.
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  SPEAKER_00: When did conservation become an issue you were interested in?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, growing up in Middle Tennessee,
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  SPEAKER_01: I had about a three or four hour drive to get to any sizable chunk of public land.
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  SPEAKER_01: I fell in love with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget going on my first backpacking trip,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I did with my oldest brother,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then putting together my first backpacking trip with two of my best friends over
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  SPEAKER_01: in the Smokies.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I just absolutely fell in love with the freedom and the challenge and sort of
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  SPEAKER_01: the purpose that those trips could give you.
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  SPEAKER_01: This idea of kind of getting lost to find yourself.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that conservation is an issue with something that I discovered at
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  SPEAKER_01: that age,
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  SPEAKER_01: but a recognition that these places aren't here by accident and
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  SPEAKER_01: that they take effort.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's somebody that's maintaining the campgrounds or somebody that's maintaining the trails.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually you come to the conclusion that, oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: there had to be somebody that actually worked to establish these places came
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  SPEAKER_01: into my conscious.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then when you got to Montana, how did that discovery then manifest out here?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I fell in love with Montana over what I call the three Bs.
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  SPEAKER_01: The first one was beer.
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  SPEAKER_01: I woke up my first morning and realized that I lived just a couple blocks away
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  SPEAKER_01: from Kettle House on the south side.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then also, of course, I realized I was real close to Bernice's Bakery.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's the second B and I absolutely love Bernice's and being able to walk down
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  SPEAKER_01: the street and get coffee and really good pastries.
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  SPEAKER_01: But maybe a couple of months after I had moved here,
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  SPEAKER_01: I did my first float trip down the Missouri Breaks.
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  SPEAKER_01: And having six or seven days to do a 150 mile float from Fort Benton all
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  SPEAKER_01: the way down to the Fred Robinson Bridge and Highway 191 in the fall,
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  SPEAKER_01: almost all alone, seeing very few people out there.
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  SPEAKER_01: Dealing with the elements, you know, crazy headwinds.
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  SPEAKER_01: We caught a Chinook for a couple days,
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  SPEAKER_01: so it got really warm,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the wind was blowing one way,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then the wind turned and blew the other way,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we had skim ice forming on the side of the river,
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  SPEAKER_01: seeing sheep coming down the Badlands,
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  SPEAKER_01: getting through the White Cliffs,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: thinking about the stories of Lewis and Clark and seeing teepee rings and the people
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  SPEAKER_01: that were here well before them.
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  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely fell in love with that landscape and immediately went back
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  SPEAKER_01: to Fort Benton and asked one of the local outfitters there for a job.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I discovered conservation.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's when I really started thinking about how I apply what I was learning here at
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  SPEAKER_01: the University of Montana and the environmental studies program
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  SPEAKER_01: to actually organizing people to protect these places.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we talked a little bit about Wild Montana for a moment there,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the organization rebranded from the Montana Wilderness Association in 2021.
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  SPEAKER_00: Many listeners might be familiar with the Montana Wilderness Association.
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  SPEAKER_00: Why the rebrand?
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  SPEAKER_01: Tell us about that story.
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  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I love about the organization that I work for is,
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  SPEAKER_01: and actually one of the things that makes it strong is its ability to think
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  SPEAKER_01: about how to adapt and change.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think for...
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  SPEAKER_01: Long before 2021,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we actually executed the rebrand,
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  SPEAKER_01: people were thinking about the name,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: just how the scope of work that we were working on had sort of outpaced the brand.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the change sort of reflected some of the growth that we had already been doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: As well as some of the anticipated growth that we see,
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  SPEAKER_01: how we go about conservation now is very different than how they went
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  SPEAKER_01: about conservation when this organization was founded,
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  SPEAKER_01: which was really focused on getting the Wilderness Act passed
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  SPEAKER_01: because we were founded before the Wilderness Act even passed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then designating wilderness specifically.
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  SPEAKER_01: And for the last several decades,
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  SPEAKER_01: this organization has been thinking about conservation more broadly.
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  SPEAKER_01: It includes wilderness.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's always going to be a part of our work.
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  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that we're really motivated by and that our supporters are motivated by.
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  SPEAKER_01: But thinking about how we apply conservation through a little bit of a bigger lens
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  SPEAKER_01: that can outpace what Congress can sometimes do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, and bring new tools and resources to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: these public lands that we all treasure and love,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether that's through,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: funding at the state legislature,
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  SPEAKER_01: which has nothing to do with wilderness, um,
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  SPEAKER_01: or working on oil and gas issues or, um,
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  SPEAKER_01: finding ways to designate conservation management areas on the Rocky mountain front.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like those are sort of separate from wilderness.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so having a broader brand captured some of the work that we were already doing
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  SPEAKER_01: and some of the work that we hope to do in the future.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so explain that range of tools in the kit, as it were.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, capital W wilderness designation is a specific thing, congressionally designated.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are the other types of public land?
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  SPEAKER_01: Most folks,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they think about wilderness,
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  SPEAKER_01: they think about the Bob Marshall or the Selway Bitterroot or the Absorca Beartooth.
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  SPEAKER_01: And these are large,
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  SPEAKER_01: permanently protected public lands that are sort of held to
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  SPEAKER_01: the highest conservation standard.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there's a whole range.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a range of other designations out there and tools.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mentioned one, the Missouri Breaks, that's actually a national monument.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's something that's allowed by the Antiquities Act.
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  SPEAKER_01: A lot of folks,
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  SPEAKER_01: when they think about public land conservation,
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  SPEAKER_01: they think about maybe the Charles and Russell National Wildlife Refuge
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  SPEAKER_01: or Red Rocks.
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  SPEAKER_01: So there's these places that are specifically set aside to protect certain species.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the places that are right outside your back door.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Bozeman,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Gallatin Range where the majority of Bozeman's water comes from is
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  SPEAKER_01: on Forest Service land.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what a lot of people interact with.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe if you're out in eastern Montana, you're,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know, you're thinking about these chunks of BLM, Bureau of Land Management land.
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  SPEAKER_01: How do the nuts and bolts work?
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  SPEAKER_01: How does land get conserved, if you will?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, my first answer is optimism.
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  SPEAKER_01: When you work on conservation,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially when you do public land conservation,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is a little bit different from private land conservation,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're actually relying on other people to make those decisions for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't protect that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Our job is to tell people stories about why they're important
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  SPEAKER_01: to certain stakeholders or communities,
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  SPEAKER_01: remind them the benefits that they receive from them,
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  SPEAKER_01: persuade them that these are important places to act for,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then go and tell their decision makers that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times our work happens through these really long stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: Confusing and complex processes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like when the Lolo National Forest goes to revise its forest plan,
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  SPEAKER_01: it goes through a forest plan revision.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does these every few decades.
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  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they take three, four, even more years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Giant bureaucratic processes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: But people have to show up for those.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the magic happens is when the public steps in and says,
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  SPEAKER_01: these places are important for these reasons.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is where my family has gone to hunt for generations.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is my favorite place to go fishing.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is our favorite campground to pull our trailer to and park at and camp
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  SPEAKER_01: and spend a week over summer break.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that's where conservation happens on public land is getting people to show up
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  SPEAKER_01: and tell their decision makers that these values are important
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  SPEAKER_01: and they require these specific prescriptions for certain places.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how are you making choices as executive director of Wild Montana and the sorts
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  SPEAKER_00: of issues that you get involved in?
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  SPEAKER_01: When our organization shows up,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're thinking about sort of a number of values that our members
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  SPEAKER_01: and our supporters have told us is important to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're the farthest from human development and human encroachment.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they're the places where you can go and see the Milky Way for the first time.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're the places where you can go and you cannot hear a thing but natural sounds.
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  SPEAKER_01: They are the places where you can go and Really challenge yourself and get lost and unplug.
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  SPEAKER_01: The places that are at a premium in our world right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: and especially here in Montana,
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  SPEAKER_01: protecting that value that exists on land is one of the most important things
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  SPEAKER_01: that we organize some of our conservation efforts around.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole lot of other values like what are the places that are most important
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  SPEAKER_01: for connectivity?
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  SPEAKER_01: When a grizzly bear needs to get from the Northern Continental Divide Down to
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  SPEAKER_01: the greater Yellowstone ecosystem.
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  SPEAKER_01: What are the chunks of public land that connect those, the stepping stones for species to take?
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  SPEAKER_00: And why is connectivity important?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why do we care about it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think a lot of people live here,
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  SPEAKER_01: not just for our public lands,
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  SPEAKER_01: but actually because of the wildlife that we have in the state.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those things that sort of sets us apart, even from other states in the West.
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  SPEAKER_01: And most Montanans are here because they appreciate not just the open space,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the species and the wildlife.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you appreciate the fact that elk need to move from,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: summer range to winter range,
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  SPEAKER_01: then you're thinking about,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay, how do we connect those places through conservation measures?
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  SPEAKER_01: Where's the conservation funding that we need to secure acquisitions
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  SPEAKER_01: to connect this one spot of public land where we know they like to be
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  SPEAKER_01: to this other one and give them safe passage?
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  SPEAKER_00: And so you must get into lots of negotiations and conversations about trade-offs.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the highest use of the land or whatever framework you use?
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  SPEAKER_00: How do you balance the demand for Montana,
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  SPEAKER_00: economic development,
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  SPEAKER_00: housing, these sorts of issues with what you're advocating for?
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  SPEAKER_01: Nothing happens with our decision makers without some level of compromise.
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  SPEAKER_01: A decision maker could be a forest supervisor that's making that decision on
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  SPEAKER_01: the low, low forest plan revision.
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  SPEAKER_01: It could be a district ranger who's making an important decision about a timber management plan.
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  SPEAKER_01: It could be a member of Congress.
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  SPEAKER_01: It could be a state legislature who's sitting in a budget committee hearing thinking
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  SPEAKER_01: about where conservation financing needs to be directed.
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  SPEAKER_01: But when you ask a decision maker to act on something,
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  SPEAKER_01: they're going to say, who are you bringing with you?
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  SPEAKER_01: Whose interest am I satisfying beyond just yours or your own?
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  SPEAKER_01: And our approach for decades has been we're stronger when we bring a community along with us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that can take a very, very long time.
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  SPEAKER_01: For example,
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  SPEAKER_01: Wild Montana has been working for over two decades now on a plan
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  SPEAKER_01: to permanently protect the Blackfoot and the Clearwater Valleys from
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  SPEAKER_01: the Mission Mountains across the valley over to Sunday Mountain,
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  SPEAKER_01: scapegoated Additions all the way up to the Continental Divide.
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  SPEAKER_01: We've been thinking about this landscape and the places that need to be addressed
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  SPEAKER_01: for conservation,
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  SPEAKER_01: wilderness designation specifically,
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  SPEAKER_01: the places where we can boost recreation,
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  SPEAKER_01: where we can support some needed uses and desired uses from the communities
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  SPEAKER_01: that help our recreation economy,
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  SPEAKER_01: as well as thinking about places that there is a high fire risk and we are next to
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  SPEAKER_01: the built environment.
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  SPEAKER_01: And where do we apply tools to keep people and property safe?
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's drill in on that example in particular,
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  SPEAKER_00: because the landscape you described there,
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  SPEAKER_00: it crosses a broad array of types of landscapes,
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  SPEAKER_00: types of land ownership,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's public or private,
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  SPEAKER_00: various economic interests, various ecological interests.
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  SPEAKER_00: How does Wild Montana navigate all that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, you said the word already, but listening.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the conservation community sometimes can get out ahead of itself
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  SPEAKER_01: and really make some assumptions that we've got these maps,
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  SPEAKER_01: we have these values, we know what's best.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's a really important distinction
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  SPEAKER_01: between what your positions are and what your interests are and being able to sort
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  SPEAKER_01: of figure those things out as you go is key.
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  SPEAKER_01: It definitely requires a lot of listening and sitting down with folks
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  SPEAKER_01: who do not think and see the world like you do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to need to bring a decision maker,
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  SPEAKER_01: a collective of people, a collaborative of people.
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  SPEAKER_01: That say,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: I may not agree with John on everything that he has to say
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  SPEAKER_01: about wilderness designation or conservation management areas or how
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  SPEAKER_01: to address this wilderness study area.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I know John doesn't agree with me on where we think we need
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  SPEAKER_01: to have timber harvest projects and timber management.
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  SPEAKER_01: But about 80% of what we have provided here, we all think is a good idea.
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  SPEAKER_01: And when you hit that sweet spot of where your Venn diagrams overlap enough
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  SPEAKER_01: that you can continue with your interest,
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  SPEAKER_01: that your values are taken care of,
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  SPEAKER_01: even if you don't get 100% of what you want,
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  SPEAKER_01: you've got something that you're ready to take to a decision maker,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether it's a force supervisor or a member of Congress.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back to my conversation with John Todd after the short break.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: A New Angle would not be possible without the generous support of
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: the Headwaters Foundation,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: working side by side with Western Montanans to improve the health
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  SPEAKER_00: of our communities.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't do that sort of work without access to capital and education.
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  SPEAKER_00: Two critical catalysts offered by First Security Bank and the University
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: of Montana College of Business.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Steve Albini and you're listening to A New Angle.
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to A New Angle.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm speaking with John Todd of Wild Montana about public lands.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would assume you can't help but notice like this is a difficult political environment, right?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like people want 100% or nothing.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're quite polarized.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: How do those dynamics contribute to the difficulty of what you all are trying to do?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have pretty strong opinions on this one.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you expect to get 100% of everything you want,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: you're effectively agreeing to the status quo.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to draw out that comment because I think it's important.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: If your position is my way or the highway, yeah, nothing will get done.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: For the collaboratives that we've been a part of that I'm aware of
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: that are most successful,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: that's kind of a founding principle is can you come to the table
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: with some solutions?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you...
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Can you be one of those partners that comes to the table?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when you need to say no, there's not a period after that, but there's a comma.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, but how about this idea?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: We seem to be losing that a little bit.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is something that Montanans are really known for.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And especially when you get,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Out from behind a screen and, you know, in a bar or in a coffee shop.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Out on public lands.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or out on public lands, yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, go for a hike with somebody that you don't see eye to eye with.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I promise you, if you work at it, you'll find some overlap there.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I truly believe that.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And conservation's an issue that is cut across party lines in a variety of different ways.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: That has to be a big concern for you,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: maintaining integrity across a broader array of constituents.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: You certainly get into the weeds of,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: into the intensity of politics,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: but also you have to maintain a reputation as a good faith actor.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think about that leading this organization?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: My job is not to advance the interests of political parties.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: My job is to bring people along to change people, to change the map of Montana.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm sure about is if you have a one-sided solution, that it won't be durable.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: You may find some success, but I think it'll be short-term, and I think that proves itself out.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You might get a bill introduced, but you might not get it passed, for example.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And where we see the most success is when we build those working majorities
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: that absolutely cut across party lines.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one thing that I'm pretty sure our elected officials have figured out.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's why,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: when you're in election season,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: you see so many people with a shotgun over their shoulder walking around with
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: a bird dog and hunting or they're out for a hike or they're floating down a river.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's talking about Montana values, whatever those are.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of them is certainly access to a healthy system of public lands.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is not partisan.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And poll after poll shows that over 80% of Montanans consider themselves conservationists.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when you pull that thread,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: People will identify or they'll define that a little bit differently, I think.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fair.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, it's a very basic principle.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: People believe in having public lands and they want to conserve them in some way, shape or form.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So what's more difficult for antagonizing somebody who already disagrees with you
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: or disappointing somebody who thought you were on their side?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, being a part of an organization that mobilizes a lot of people,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: those conversations where people feel –
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Disappointed are the harder ones.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are your supporters.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe this is a statement on my personality,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: but sometimes I actually find a lot of energy sitting down with folks that don't see
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: the world the way I do and trying to figure that puzzle out.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think of it that way.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a challenge and I'm going to learn something here,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: but I hope that at least they understand my values when I leave.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think people making assumptions that just because Wild Montana is willing to come
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: to the table and compromise and collaborate and find constructive solutions
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: for communities and being disappointed by that sometimes is the hardest thing
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: to explain to folks.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: A few moments ago, you used the word persuasion.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's press on that.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is persuasion possible?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you believe in it as a thing?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then if so, how do you actually do it?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is effective?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I will say I'll go beyond.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a reality.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have two teenage daughters, so I get persuaded every day.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there we go.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Multiple times a day.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well said.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, persuasion is real.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So just recently,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Congressman Zinke introduced a bill that I was just sort of outlining for
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: the Blackfoot.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: A bill to protect one of the most iconic corridors in Montana,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: literally a place that you go from tip to tail to.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it tells you the story of Montana.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: It tells you the story of citizens fighting to establish
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: the first citizen-based wilderness area in the nation in the scapegoat.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It tells you the story of the struggle of Montana Mills right now.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It tells you the importance of water quality when you go down the Blackfoot River
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: and you think about its history.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: It tells you the importance of connectivity and corridors and species migrating back
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: and forth and up and down that river valley.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Ryan Zinke recently introduced a bill that took us a very long time
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: to persuade him is in the best interest of his constituents.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: he did that not because John Todd sat down and asked him to do it
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: or our staff specifically sat down, asked him to do it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But again,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: because he realized that there was a movement behind this thing and it had
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: the popularity and the support that was a politically viable option for him
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: to carry.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you need to move a decision maker sometime from inaction to action,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't mean that necessarily in a negative way,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: but you're educating folks and you're persuading them
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: that this is actually something that is good for their constituents.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's persuasion and action for sure.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do conversations like you just outlined with Blackfoot become a piece
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: of proposed legislation?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like how did all these different constituencies and trade-offs and negotiations get
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: then represented in some document that Congress maybe gets to vote on?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It usually starts with some disagreement or conflict.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for us,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: what actually triggered a lot of this work that spawned a community-based proposal
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: that eventually became legislation was actually because there was a snowmobiling,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: a highly sought after snowmobiling area that became recommended wilderness.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And for snowmobiles to access that place,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: it required an amendment to the forest plan,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: which is one of those bureaucratic processes that you were just talking about.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Us thinking about that in a creative way and saying, okay,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's a way for us to compromise here and allow this really important stakeholder
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: in the community access to an area.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But we can also secure their support of our interest maybe in a different place.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And working through that conflict and building a bridge between...
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: The wilderness community and the snowmobiling community was just the beginning.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you start to break out maps and say,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: okay, how do I actually make a pretty big problem bigger?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that allows you to bring in more people.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's a timber mill.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a private landholder who has a certain interest here.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is folks who are really concerned about forest fire risk around
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: the community of Lincoln, for example.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they have some goals that you can achieve on public land.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's wilderness study areas in the landscape that need to get addressed.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you connect this landscape with other areas of protection on
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: the Rocky Mountain Front and the scapegoat and the Bob Marshalls?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when do you decide that it's time to go live, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like this thing is ready to put in front of an elected official.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of times you're looking to your decision makers of,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Where are your priorities?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: What can we help you with?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: What interests or stakeholders would you like to see?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of those questions get answered depending on who your target is,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: who you're asking to take this action for you.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they can say, oh, this stakeholder, this constituency is really important to me.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to hear what they have to say.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have their input?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have their support?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so you answer a lot of those questions just by sort of this back and forth kind
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: of feedback loop of who you're actually asking to take action.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned a few moments ago that, you know, it's an election season.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's no surprise that you see,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: candidates running for office,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: dressed in hunting garb or portraying themselves as public lands advocates.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know if somebody is the real deal?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: If they've been elected before, take a look at the record.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: So for folks that are seeking reelection,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: you have to do a little bit of homework and see where their votes land.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do their votes line up with their words?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do their votes line up with their promises,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: whether they're at a stump speech or in a campaign ad?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes a little bit of work for you to find either that information or
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: a trusted messenger.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of trusted messengers out there where you can find that type of information.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if they have been holding public office,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: really seeing where their votes line up with their words.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So hold people accountable to their decisions.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: For some folks that are seeking an election for the first time,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I really encourage people to spend some time with the candidates,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: go see them speak,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: go listen to them,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: ask them questions,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: check into their website and see what specific policies,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: not platitudes they're giving,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: the interests that are important to you, especially public lands.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, what are the specifics?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: What management prescriptions would you like to see here that's going
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: to make our lives as Montanans better,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: that's going to make these places more sustainable for
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: our kids?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wild Montana is a member-driven organization.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about the membership in general,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: and then if listeners want to become members, how would you advise them?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Always encourage people to go straight to our website, which is wildmontana.org.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ask questions there too.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Dig in, see what we're all about.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you see something that piques your interest,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: all of our contact information is on that webpage and you can reach out to me
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: or you can reach out to a member of our staff.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: As I said,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: the organization is one of the oldest and largest here in the state and in fact in
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: the West.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Founded in 1958,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: we have several thousand members and we have over 100,000 supporters that are
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: on our list now.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so those are the folks that we rely on to be able to persuade
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or compel our decision makers to take action on behalf of public land.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, wildmontana.org.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Super.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about the last time you changed your mind.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I knew you were going to ask me this question.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, back to the example I was sharing about getting Congressman Zinke to introduce a bill.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: We are at the end of a congressional session.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And while we would have loved to have had a member
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: of Congress introduce this bill much earlier,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think what has made me change my mind recently is that there is some hope.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was starting to lose some hope on making some measurable progress towards some
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: of Wild Montana's legislative goals.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when I say Wild Montana's legislative goals,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: what I really mean is these goals that the communities have been working on in
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: the Blackfoot now for over two decades.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we share those goals with those community members and stakeholders.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: I will say I've had to change my mind on hope and optimism of getting this bill,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: A, introduced, which is really important.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we're very grateful to Congressman Zinke for his leadership on that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm optimistic and changing my mind that we can get the rest
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: of our delegation there also in short order because between now and,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: um, the end of this calendar year is when the magic has to happen.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to get a bill, um,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: supported by the rest of our congressional delegation through a committee hearing
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: and, um, and introduced on the Senate side to actually get it passed.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I've changed my mind on, on whether or not that's possible.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm, um, I'm in the yes category now.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I love to hear that.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: JT, thanks for coming in,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: sharing the Wild Montana story, and thanks for all the good work you do.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Justin.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to A New Angle.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you like what we do and want to support us directly,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: please consider a subscription at anewanglepodcast.com.
• 28:22
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• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: A New Angle is recorded at Studio 49, a generous gift from UM alums Michelle and Lauren Hanson.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Our presenting sponsor is the Headwaters Foundation,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: working side-by-side with Western Montanans to improve the health
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: of our communities.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're also supported by First Security Bank,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: University of Montana College of Business, and Montana Public Radio.
• 28:48
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• 28:49
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• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot, and we'll see you next time.
• 28:55
  [music]