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WeAreDevelopers LIVE - Like Peas in a Pod: What Happens When People Clone Your App? · Coffee with Developers

• 1:48
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_04: It felt a bit like Groundhog Day, didn't it?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like seeing the intro three times in a row, but yeah, fair enough.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't it just it's when you feel like you're in control of software and then you're just not clicking anything and the thing plays three times, you know.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Edge cases, there we go.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're testing in production, we're real men.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: That's what we do here, so that's pretty good.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's not called production, it's called spy life or spicy production.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe that's what we should call the show.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, it's good to, I should say, Chris, it's good to have you back on the show.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, having the the captain actually steering the ship, you know, because I I felt like I was just avoiding icebergs.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But we got there, you know, we didn't do a full-blown Titanic.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I'm going with this analogy, but we're still here.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's good to have you back.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's interesting because I had these this analogy for my closing talk in the uh in San Jose, but I didn't do a closing talk because we actually got Simon Willison instead.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: So I might actually be using that uh in India in the conference when uh uh I find the story about the Titanic absolutely fascinating because it's like the story of hubris and technology and blind belief in in new features, and uh yeah, it's it's a it's a good uh thing to actually point into the direction what we do with AI these days.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: So hopefully it's not gonna be too shoehorned.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_04: I always get excited about things.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_04: I went to a Titanic exhibition, so that's why I thought I had to put that in there as well.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, and the analogies.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's good to see.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I like that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: We both just got our visa for India as well, and we also looked at the Visa website and had lots of fun with that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: So we might be actually doing a um, I don't know, uh, mystery science theater 3000 version of reviewing the website because holy cow, there were so many interesting uh holy cow, uh there were so many interesting things in there that was just fascinating to see that, like going to this side.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I just got my email that I'm actually have my visa now, and the official email to tell you that the visa has arrived is actually called let me find it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: That is visa.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, I can't can't find it right now, but it's basically Gmail or something.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: No no reply-I B F R T that's the email that it that it comes from, and status regarding e visa application, and then the number, and then it's like a block of text, like really, really big, and then somewhere in there is granted.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: So that's good.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it really is.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean it's also something that you know, the scale that they must be serving is huge, so it's not surprising, but starting off with uh with a coughing fit.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, you know, that the kind of scale, oh excuse me, the scale of what they're serving, you know, the number of people applying for visas and the kind of um the fact that we can see by looking at that site, and we'll we'll bring it up on a future show, that it's um very much a Frankenstein site, isn't it?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can see where it's evolved from kind of probably the very early days of HTML until now.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, it's let's just say you can you can tell.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean it's good that you don't have to download a PDF and fill it out and scan it in and and fax it to them like we did in the past, so that's good.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, we'll go from there.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_04: Talking about people that do amazing things and do uh and uh do things in browsers that I thought were not possible for a long time now.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: Our guest today uh is Ivan Kutskir.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_04: Kutzkir.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: And he's the maker of Photopee.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: And Photopee.com is basically Photoshop in the browser and has been my replacement for Photoshop for the last five years, I think, or four years.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: So um, and it's basically it does everything that Photoshop does, it's just in the browser, and I'm very excited about having you here and being able to talk about uh the ideas that you had there and what you did.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: So we're gonna do that, go into that in detail later.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: But first of all, how are you doing, Ivan?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh hello, uh I'm doing good.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thanks for having me here.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, it was fun.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: Like when I started using Photope, I was like, okay, I was complaining about things that weren't working, and immediately people answered me, and I'm like, I thought, oh, there must be a massive team behind that that actually fixed things uh immediately.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: But it's just Ivan.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: That's it.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's no there's nobody else in that company, it's just you doing it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's true.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: How did you get to that?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like, did you do is it your main income right now, or do you do other things on the side as well?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is it still a side hustle or is it your main project?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's it's been uh my main uh project for many, many years.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, I started working on it while I was still studying at the university.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing my finishing my bachelor's degree, and it was just a hobby that I did in my spare time.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And once I finished graduated, I decided to keep working on it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: It it was not making money yet, but I just decided to keep pushing it for a couple more months and see what happens.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh gradually it became my main uh main uh work.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: So let's let's get into that much more uh uh in detail later.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go through the bits that we collected a bit up front so we have our live show what people expect to come in this show.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: So um now let's take a look at what I collected this week that you probably haven't looked at.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: I know that's actually uh not the idea to start moving mine.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: Hang on.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um not show my Gmail, that might also be a good idea.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I always find this interesting as well.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're kind of when we uh when we have people like you on the show here, Ivan.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: We will get back to uh photo P later, but um I came from a teaching background and uh the amount of students that use use your product, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think is is probably something you are aware of, but it's um uh when you've got things like the you know the the largest provider of graphic software in the world, the subscription-based one that we won't mention, um, you know, it's actually you know, I think it's it's great because I think me and Chris, we've both come from uh the kind of world where we we got into this possibly through things like, you know, it's pirated software.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not that I would ever um approve of that, but actually we didn't have the kind of free alternatives or the the the good kind of you know, not clones, but the the things that were these kind of remakes of these kind of um Adobe software.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's actually really cool to have you on the show and and think that I had so many students that were using your work.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's kind of strange now to be talking to the man who built it, you know.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we'll get back to that later.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's good that you didn't say the name, but then you said Adobe.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: So that that that should keep it that should keep it uh keep it very very hard to figure out.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: So that's pretty good.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so there is a new trend in companies to actually start whitecoding internal applications.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I mean, this shouldn't be news to a degree, but I think it's interesting to see uh that this is now being uh uh basically I don't know, does it replace the internal hack days that we used to have or the hack weeks where basically engineers were allowed to do things on the site on a certain date?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: Or is it just that companies have realized that this is actually a really good idea to do?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I mean, I want to point out that you, Daniel, I mean, uh, to my uh with me pushing you gently in a direction, have been doing that for the last few weeks.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: So we have our own internal video editor now, and we have our own internal thumbnail generator for like preview to thumbnails and these kind of things, because we kind of want to be independent of third-party companies where you pay like$50 there,$100 there, but it actually adds up to things that are not necessary.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: And you did the other thing, if you use third-party software, you never can change it, uh can share it with the whole team.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: You always have to then like give people your login to use it, which feels weird and feels wrong.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: So just wipe coding your own tooling in the company that way feels like a much uh more simpler way.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, just doesn't apply to you, Ivan, because you you and you don't have people in there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: But like, do you think the idea of uh of people just building vibe coded apps in the company to show off things to each other is a beneficial one, or is it something that could um could accelerate the red release of software in general?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I guess uh each new tool, well, you still have the option to not use it, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can still do the things the old way, but in general, yes, every new tool uh gives you more possibilities and uh usually makes your work faster.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what I think.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think we found so much of time was uh was was just spent though, like um kind of bogged down in the UI of these third-party tools.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like a good example would be you know Google Google Drive.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: We all know that there's uh you know, there's massive pluses to Google Drive.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to share, you know, massive amounts of storage available, it's it's quite cheap.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the downside is that um when you're working with lots of video and things like this, you have like constantly you're you're being fed uh the sorry, this video is processing screen.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, where every time you try and scrub to a different part of a video, you can't really, because it has to, I don't know what their loading mechanism is, but it it doesn't do any kind of like streaming where it'll just take you to it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh it's a really kind of um clunky way of actually navigating your own uh data and your own uh assets and and and content.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so just putting this simple UI on the front, I think was was kind of the way we approached it, wasn't it, Chris?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where it was uh it's not actually doing anything in terms of um stuff that isn't already there in Google Drive, but it's just giving it a UI and making it easy to navigate around.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that even if somebody in the company builds something that does that, that's already gonna, it's just removing that friction, you know, that you often have with the third-party systems that come with a lot of things that aren't really designed for you in particular.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, especially with UIs that grew over time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_04: And basically, I mean, Photoshop is a great example for that, or also Office.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's so many features in there that you're always like, who needs that?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_04: Can we remove that?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_04: When I worked on the edge developer tools, it was the same thing there.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's like a few tools in the edge developer tools, the Chromium developer tools that were built for YouTube and for Google internally, like nobody else understands any of these tools.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay, let's let's let's take them out, and it's not necessary to ship them.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then, of course, 6,000 emails came in that I need that daily or once a year, but it's not here anymore.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_04: So that's why I'm there.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like changing UI and moving things around is a very, very big problem.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's why uh jumping from third-party tool to third-party tool is a big tricky thing.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's two things in there as well that allows people that are not technical to build little apps and actually show that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_04: And we see that internally in VR developers as well.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_04: Our marketing people and our salespeople build their own apps to do own things, and other than bugging us or bugging the engineering team to build them, they can do it themselves.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: And it gives them a great um uh sense of achievement because I've done that kind of thing rather than like I had to wait for the engineers to get the finger out and actually start moving and doing the thing for me.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it empowers people incredibly internally, and I think it's a good thing.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, the other big thing that went around, and I didn't have a link for it yet, but uh that uh that people are wipe coding uh new interfaces for Android TVs yet, because Android TVs are like this huge thing of ads and random other services and things, and they basically they they ask Claude as all these TVs are connected over wireless, you can actually access them, and people are basically hacking their own TVs to have like three buttons instead of like 15 offers, and that's something that I really really appreciate as well because I'm using an uh Fire Stick and an Amazon Fire Stick, and 90% of the interface is basically things that I don't pay for yet, and they want me to pay for rather than things that I could watch.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I I love that we can use a system like Claude right now to hack these things and make them easier for us.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it's very cool.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do much of that, um, Ivan?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in terms of like when, you know, you you've come from sort of building something very, you know, in terms of you were having to almost reverse engineer, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You were having to look at kind of uh uh features that were maybe out there in other software and then try and build them on your own.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you find though that the tendency is just to now try and move fast with agentic coding and kind of change how you work, or are you still are you using it as a sort of a foot up, but but ultimately still kind of using the human judgment of you know reviewing the code that it generates kind of as thoroughly as you would if you'd written it yourself?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or has it has it changed anything about how you're working?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am starting to use more and more uh of these AI models in my own work.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think I'm definitely changing the way I work, but it's uh I I don't use AI as much as many of other developers do.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I haven't hacked my uh TV yet or any of my other devices, but I'm really excited to see to see these things happen.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to see that uh the much much many more people can become hackers and uh get into this uh process, and it slowly becomes uh more accessible to everyone.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: At the same time, it feels a bit like a lock-in.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I just I'm coming back to that later when I talk about our coding competition.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I just used like all the different models to do a demo of some code thing.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: And the last one that I used was Google Gemini.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: And basically, I'm like, okay, how do how can I use Google Gemini?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_04: I just go to ChatGPT and tell it to do things.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: I go to Clot and tell it to do things, and with Google Gemini, it's like, okay, we need you to sign into our IDE, and then we need you to generate a code and give us$20 up front to actually start coding, and then it built something and it stayed within that thing.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay, why can't I just use that and copy and paste it back into my local editor?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: But this is basically where where I feel like that uh sooner or later these companies, also when they do internal pipe coding things, they have to uh they have to question themselves, who do I actually invest in?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Accenture just announced that they allowed that they offer$29 a month for all their people to use on Cloud each month.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's like uh that's like one or two of these apps, basically.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's basically it's not really much, but uh it feels like the companies have realized that like the power of AI coding and HND coding is great, but it also comes with a bill that you probably haven't thought about yet.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: So that's something that that I think will be interesting to see.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I haven't gotten much into that, but I found it interesting that Google open source has uh has a treaty on like what it costs to use open source, and it basically the open source itself is free, but making it work with your needs and actually contributing to it is a cost for companies as well.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's a very, very good reminder because I'm uh I'm very tired of people uh seeing open source as free.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Open source is free, but free as in puppy.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's like you get a you get a free puppy, but then you have to then you have to train it, you have to make sure it doesn't eat your slippers, you have to make sure it doesn't shit in your living room.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: You basically have to put effort in to put to use open source, and you should, when you use open source, also contribute back.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and not many people realize that this is an extra effort because a lot of times open source software also comes with lots of options and not much documentation.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: So that's another uh overhead that your company might have.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: So it's an interesting little treaty about like what uh how what it means to take open source on.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I like that Google put a put a spotlight on that rather than saying like, oh, we can use everything for free, that's fine.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: Two security bits, uh image magic, which I guess you use under the hood as well, Ivan?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh no, no, no.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I never used it, but I'm aware of it, and I I admire the effort that uh that uh the developers put into it, but I I never used it properly.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: So image magic is like FFmpeg for images, it basically allows you to create images of all shapes and forms, convert them, do things with them.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: And as it is, of course, a binary conversion, there's opportunities to do that.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a CVE right now that there is a uh arbitrary file read through image magic.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: So if you have if you use it, patch it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's basically the answer that I can say right now.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it's uh uh it's a pretty pretty powerful tool, but again, really hard to use if you if you're not uh if you're not used to it or if you're not getting into it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_04: And this is has been around for quite a while.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_04: The Cyrillic homoglyph, uh, and that's still a problem in chromium's typosquatting filters.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, this is a headline that basically, if I read that to my wife, she would be like, okay, what the hell are you telling?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, first of all, why you're speaking English?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: And secondly, why is nothing in there in there understandable?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: So the idea is basically that you have an A in the Cyrillic alphabet that looks like the A in um in uh the uh Latin alphabet.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: So you have like Adobe.com, which is not adobe.com, but a phishing site that looks like adobe.com, and that Cyrillic A looks so perfect in the domain that you're basically not realizing it.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: So um that in the past that has been done with visa.com and PayPal had a big issue.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: There was a there was a Russian spy site for decades that based basically PayPal with that A instead of the real A.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so that's what a homoglyph is basically, something that looks similar to another one as a letter.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: And typosquatting is basically that when you when you have a when you have a uh um a package that's that looks almost the same name as another one, you actually buy that.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: The same with like domain names when you get like paypal.com and you would get popal.com.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_04: If people do do a typo, you actually buy that domain to send them to your thing.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think my favorite typosquatting is still this uh guthip.com.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Oh you spelled it wrong.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's just get instead of github.com.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: That is one of my favorite like typosquatting things that is basically not evil.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it seems like that Chromium still has the filter problem with those.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: So always take a look at the domains uh and make sure that they actually are the right thing.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: And that the other thing is like when you do an Rn next to each other, uh, it looks like an M.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_04: So you got Rn Rnikrosoft.com.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Rn eta.ai is still free.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: I was actually thinking about getting that one because if you did if you look at the screen, it actually looks like an M.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: Or in an email, it looks like an M, but it isn't.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that is a real security issue.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_04: So always look at look directly at the domain and see what's happening there as well.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, interesting things.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there is a uh tester for open AI generated content from open AI.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: So if you drag something into it, it actually will tell you if it's been generated by OpenAI or not.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: So this is a great way to actually test if something has been AI generated or if something is there.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: I want, I mean, this is audio files and image files.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, with text they did this like hidden characters as well in there, but that was crackable within a second as well.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: But uh it's it's interesting to see that kind of stuff.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: Is this something that you're considering for photopey as well to actually uh to actually do a testing or or uh um like watermark detection or something?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something that people ask for?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember many people asking for it, but I guess you'd still have to use AI, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: To detect AI.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So they probably have some advanced models.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, personally, uh since the beginning of PhotoP, I've been offering only the services which can run on the device of the user.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I never offered any like Server side because I I was not making any money at the beginning, so I could not afford any expensive servers.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So every since the beginning, everything was supposed to run on your phone or on your laptop, your tablet.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the the uh these advanced AI models is not something I've been focusing focusing on.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm wondering if that's an A API as well, and if not, it should be one.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, verify content with the API.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: So you could actually use an API to do that as well, and it's a post API to provenance checks.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are far from perfect, though.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I will say these are far from perfect because I saw there's been a big issue last week, which was that lots of people in the kind of video world will run audio through something like Adobe Podcast Enhance.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a UI-based um kind of tool.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's mainly because it is just a kind of very smart, very simple, it doesn't sort of overprocess things, it does the right amount of background removal.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the time people will, and I do it myself, finish off a video, quickly export the audio, run it through that.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't get the kind of results that I wanted in kind of my video editing software itself, now that will instantly uh tag it with the kind of metadata if you upload it to YouTube as AI generated content, which there's nothing really about that.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know you could say by the book, it's it is technically AI generated because they probably do some kind of voice cloning or something in there to like patch over mistakes, but but it's not, is it?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: In essence, it's somebody just having the background removed that's no different than you would have done in your video and so uh personally.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh it's impossible to detect AI content properly.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can make AI which uh detects some features of your content, but uh then you make a tool which removes these features from uh the content.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in general, uh they will not be able to create a proper tool which detects AI content, like 100% uh right.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it is interesting when, like, for example, Apple just announced that all that they removed all the new DeFi apps from the App Store that basically allows you to upload a photo and show that person naked.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: And uh then basically said, like, this is completely against our terms and conditions, and you're not allowed to do that, which is a good thing.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but then Grok is basically allowing you to do that.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: So, what do you do?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: You block the whole of X and Grok then as well.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_04: So it's there's always one company then that says, like, oh, it's freedom of speech to allow you to do that and steal stuff or or copy things, and yeah, it's it's an endless race, uh, and it's a very interesting one in terms of uh lawyers and uh and laws and uh things coming that direction.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, we're gonna come back to that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd say that uh all all this was possible for decades, but you had to learn how to use a photo editor, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But now you can do it with a single click in a couple of seconds, and I and suddenly yeah, it becomes a bigger problem because it's not like 1% of people who can do it, but 100% of people.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's also the cost of it is becoming much lower.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: So basically, as soon as something like that allows you to do it to automate it, you can get a bot to do it rather than a human to do it.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, when we did Photoshop manipulation in the past, it was a skill, it was even even funny pictures were a skill to me.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: And now it's like everything is just generated in the same fashion and it looks always boring as hell.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like I'm I'm so tired of these cartoonish uh chat GPT style things.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm still part of several communities that do Photoshop editing to make funny and inappropriate humor pictures like beta.com or worth1000.com back then.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's something that we shouldn't think we should think about that the uh automating it is cheap and uh using it for for horrible purposes and stealing things then is cheaper as well than it used to be.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: But you as you said, it's nothing new.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_04: This is interesting.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, there's a Mac APK now.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_04: So basically, what it allows you to run Android apps natively on Apple Silicon Macs, because before that you always had to use uh uh an Android uh emulator, or you had to connect your phone and actually use it as a third-party thing, and now you can actually run basically all APK files, which are the uh the which is the file format of uh of Android uh on macOS.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I find it really interesting because you can now take some of the older games and actually run that on your desktop that were only available for uh for Android before.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I guess this is only possible because Android is open source and you could reverse engineer the APK file format much easier than you could uh reverse engineer any other out there.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_04: But it's just if you have an if you have an Android app that you really really like and you want to learn it on your map, uh on your Mac, you can do that now with the Mac APK thing.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool, very cool.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: And then you have these huge buttons, and like basically I remember when the iPad came out, and then everybody just basically did an iPhone interface on the iPad, and everything was like this big, and just one interface element on the whole thing on the 15-inch Mac uh iPad.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but uh interesting to see.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: If you have company uh meetings and you don't have them, there's a fake meeting app that allows you to actually run an app, uh run a meeting in Teams or in Meet.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: And uh that basically then gives it gives you a fake meeting and you can tell people that you're busy inside a meeting.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's really good.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's really good.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I had a go.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we say it's really good because it's you know it's one of these like brilliantly pointless things, but it's like I I love the kind of earnestness that the landing page has got, you know, where it's like pixel perfect, like we do an absolutely perfect recreation of the team's interface, you know, it's so perfect, nobody nearby can tell.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like all for this purpose of like pretending you're working.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean that that is pretty good.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give them that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it does um the only thing I will say is Sarah Johnson keeps turning up at every meeting, and at some point somebody's gonna ask, like, why is this person always here?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Does she work for this company?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I love it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's so good.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: There will be someone who actually uses that and and actually does kind of do nothing.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do they call it?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Quiet quitting.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, when people just do nothing at their jobs.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but still, good fun, fun project.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: It reminds reminds me of the old panic screens that games had.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like basically, I remember there was a text adventure that I like that I love to play on DOS machines called uh Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the book as a text adventure, and had a panic button that if your boss looks after on your screen, you can press it and it gave you an access database instead.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: So basically, games basically showed like, oh, you're working, you're not playing the game.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: And it was uh uh that was a that was uh an ESA egg that a lot of them had in there before.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: Now uh I just had a bit of time on my hand because I was supposed to be on vacation, that that didn't work out.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I wanted to do some coding again and I wanted to do some fun bits, and I thought uh we make this as a challenge.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: So we have a challenge here right now uh called without love.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I have an HTML document, and I found this uh printout in a church that had like quotes from Lao Tzu about love and without love.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: Things without love are something else, and I thought that was pretty cool.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: So I made an HTML document out of that, and this is basically it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's basically a simple HTML document with a UL in there and a span duty without love is irritation, responsibility without love is disrespect, and so on and so forth.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: Now, what I want you to do is actually take this and do something creative with it and give it back to us, do a pull request, tell us about it, and we're gonna pick three winners from that uh from that competition over the next few weeks.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: And those three people will be on a podcast with us where we have to where we talk to you about why you've done the things you've done and how you've done the things you've done.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: And the these people also get a free ticket for our any of our events, either for the India event coming up or for the one in America next year or for the one in Berlin next year.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_04: So um that's basically it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna give you$10,000 or$200,000 because I don't have them.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: But I think it's just so much fun to do these kind of things and just play with them.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so what I've done just to uh just to get started with it as well is um I've done those two.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a mover and a shuffle.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: The shuffle was the one that I normally do things kind of stuff.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: So basically, you just have this uh this shuffle animation, and then you show the thing, the letter as it as you do.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: And uh with that, I realized there's a weird thing.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to do that without love in the middle, staying, and stinginess and the other one on the side.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_04: So basically, instead of the whole thing moving around, I was like, How do I do that in CSS?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I then went back into the old tricks of like embedding the other two spans in there and then using um uh uh position relative on the main span and move the other ones out with a negative margin and a positive margin or like position absolute and plus hundred percent.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: And it always felt weird because you had to do like the uh the width uh either fixed or or just basically know the width of the thing.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: I know there's probably 10,000 tricks in CSS right now to do that, but then I found out about uh um about anchor positioning, and that was something that is now in CSS available in all the browsers, and this is what I want you to think about as well if you take part in that.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: Just take that opportunity to play with something that you haven't done before and actually try to understand how it works.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_04: And this is how what I did with anchor positioning, and that's how I got that mover solution here.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: So this one actually does that thing in the middle that always stays in the middle, and the other one it's just basically two elements that I used with anchor positioning to the right and to the left of the main element, and then I basically crop them to one line and just move them up and down by setting a CSS uh um variable on the main element or CSS uh custom as custom attribute on the main element and basically making the transition.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_04: So there's that the only JavaScript in that is setting uh setting and uh and deleting that uh that CSS uh variable, and the rest is done by CSS.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: That is all in the repo as well.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: If you want to play with that, then you can basically take a look at it um in the repo itself.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: So there's the entries, and I've got the Chris Hallman ones here, and this is the mover and the shuffle.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's all just one HTML element.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I really, really started to like uh anchor positioning, so I'm gonna do much more with that one in the nearer future.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, a bit hacky with the 1.3 em tab to move the thing around, but it works out quite well, and that's the whole of the JavaScript.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I've did I've written that by hand, like like a caveman, because I liked it, and I think that's something that might be fun for you to do as well.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: And a shuffle is even simpler, it just basically takes one of the LI elements and hides them all and then shows one of them at a time.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, this morning I I talked to all the agents in the in the field, what they would do with that, and it was quite interesting to see the bits that they came up with.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: So um here's basically Claude Claude Opus is doing uh it did a flame thing where you move it on this one to show it uh when you move it over there, and you press it to make the whole flame light up the whole thing.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a readme file in there, what Claude Opus thinks, what it was.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: What really drives me nuts is that like basically I would I would have uppercased this one.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like if they're actually not part of the sentence, then I I would have really uppercased the words in instead of just like showing them in lowercase here.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_04: But uh it was just basically like, oh yeah, it was basically saying, like, oh, there's a there's a light, and that's the beautiful thing, and that's what we should be doing.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: Now chat GPD also came up with a light solution, and it actually has a 4.40 found.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: Is that it?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a bit more it's a bit more simple, and I hate that it jumps.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that it didn't realize that like basically the two lines here should be absolutely positioned or something.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: So basically it should be there, but it does the same thing of moving uh having a canvas in the background to move the light around and then just do the bits in there as well.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: You can hold the light.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do the keyboard shortcuts work?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I can't quite read them, but in the bottom corner I know it says move to reveal.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then are there any keyboard shortcuts?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know in the past it's given me ones on the UI, like here's a keyboard shortcut, and they didn't work.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whereas with Google Dust.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: You you can you can tap through it, but that's it.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's no other keyboard shortcut that I know about.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, but uh they both went for the light scheme, so that was interesting.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_04: Then I actually went into copilot in my Visual Studio Code and got this.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, what are you even doing?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_04: This is just like what?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, uh, and uh then I realized I was in the head of the document instead of the full document.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: And when I did the full document, this is what uh uh copilot did.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's cute, but I mean I'm not impressed.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I mean I asked it to do something interactive, and the whole interactivity is basically the the transitions that it actually did.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Which is probably the right place to do it to be a nerd on a show about development.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: But um, what's the font there?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it looks like Garamond or something like that, like a maybe a kind of uh a fairly sort of system font.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh to home, it's not Tahoma, is it?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it's in it's in that kind of uh realm, you know, something that's a bit of a system font.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just because I thought that would be an interesting choice because it tends to kind of most of the time just install Google fonts and go for like, you know, Seg SegUI.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right, yeah, interested.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just thought it's interesting it made that choice, you know.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's basically the SegUI Tahoma Geneva.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's like the old list of all the system fonts uh in in one go.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what it did here.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: And then uh Mistral, um, the French one that actually um okay, I got that wrong.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: Mistral.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_04: Mistral did uh uh did uh a whole like uh um particle system.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a French system, and it did it didn't go on strike halfway through and burn things down, so that was interesting.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, it was uh uh so that's pretty cute, I think.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: But uh it didn't know what that is.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that 3JS or something?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be I'd be interested to know what that is because it looks like a sort of 3js animation, you know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that there's been a thing going round about um I saw a big post about somebody who was a 3JS developer and they were saying they're no longer doing it because AI effectively can just they can just prompt everything, and so a lot of their work has gone and things like this.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was just interested to know like maybe if it had used 3JS, because that might be kind of the point they're making, uh, if the AI is is reaching for it as its first kind of approach towards any kind of animation beyond basic CSS animation.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's just uh it's just an on particle system, it doesn't need 3.js for that.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_04: I mean that's simple math.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we have done that in a long time.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I say it's simple math because I've done it a lot.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but yeah, it's uh uh it's it's interesting to see.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's also interesting to see how they actually generated it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: That chat GPT, for example, did the whole thing uh um packed, like minified, whereas like all the others actually added comments and made it editable and talked to you about what it can do.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that was interesting as well.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_04: And what else do we have?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_04: And then I went for Google Gemini, and Google Gemini I cannot host on that repo because for some reason it asks me to use the Google code, uh the Google Gemini um access code for it.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I mean it went all in.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you take a look at that, that's basically like it has generated sounds, it has background images, it allows to have like a flow, a mandala, an anthology, and you have different styles for the uh for the particle systems in the background.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_04: You have a dark and uh and light and three different themes, and yeah, it basically is like a huge thing.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, 65k or and also it's not that bad, but still it's like um, yeah, it really went in and has uh uh autumn uh generated sounds, and what I found interesting because it actually does a lot of like mandala stuff, and I I'm not quite sure, I'm not that that firm in different religions, but I thought mandala was not uh Lao Tzu, was not like a part of the Yi Qing, but it's an Indian thing, so I don't know if they actually mixed that, but it's yeah, beautifully done.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: So um that's not what I expect from you, but if you can do that kind of stuff, cool, do it.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: Please send a pull request, maybe be part of this, and then we can actually get you on the show and we can get you a ticket for our conference.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm looking forward to what people can come up with, and it's just a fun thing to do to try things out, and uh yeah, we're gonna meet at the event then later on.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: So that's pretty fun.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: So this is without love.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_04: So hopefully there's gonna be lots of research, lots of things in.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna put that on social media and on my blog and on the magazine today as well.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: And now we're gonna come to a fixed session that uh I talked to Ivan before.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: We have a game called Fake One News where I'm gonna read you headlines and you're gonna tell me if the headline is real or if it's something I made up.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: I collect about 600, 700 headlines a week for our newsletter.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_04: So I have a lot of choice from things.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_04: So let's see what you can see.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a there's that there's a high score, so you can see uh how you fare against the other people that were on the event as well.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_04: So let's play fake on news.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so we're into fake on news.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Ivan, your round will start.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Chris will read you the questions.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have 30 seconds, uh or rather read you the the headlines.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have 30 seconds per headline to tell us if it's real or if it's fake.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then you'll go on the leaderboard at the end.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: So best of luck.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_04: Framework non grata, codex flags, Ruby on Rails, and Angular is outdated and redundant in code reviews.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I haven't seen it anywhere, have you?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming not.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yep, it's fake.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: Not saying it's real, but it's fake.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_04: Good start.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: OpenAI's blunt warning to employees about preserving company secrets.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: If you're getting hit on, it's probably a spy.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_04: This is about people uh online dating sites.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: News, have you heard this story?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, I'm not sure.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is a lot going around.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean it sounds so weird.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go with you, Ivan.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it doesn't sound like news, so therefore it probably is.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit slow.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's poison.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's it is news.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_04: They actually said that like make sure that you're not going on dating sites and giving out open AI secrets.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if I go on a dating site and people ask me about my job and about secrets of my company, that's got that's gotta be a red flag, right?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_04: But okay, maybe who knows?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: Number three.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Zoom adds proof of human badges to show that you're not an epic.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds to me like news, but I'm not sure.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't know somebody still using Zoom.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: What do we think?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Five seconds.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh news.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh news.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: It is actually news.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_04: We gotta fix it.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: We gotta fix it.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um video game reverse engineering community shuts down because AI has made it too easy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: That could be real, but I think I heard something like this yesterday, so I think it could be news.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: It does it does feel as well like it could be the show.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Should I answer or you, Daniel?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, no, it's for you.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm just I'm just for me.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I I thought it's 30 seconds for all the questions, but it's for each question.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_04: So no, for each question, yeah.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: And uh Daniel, you have to fix that uh that that news white on high light hair.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_04: That is not a question.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah, just yeah.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_04: Noted.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_04: Noted.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: Number five.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: Pet suspect ransom negotiator ran shiny hunters extortion site.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't seen anything about that, have you?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds so specific that it feels real.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's fake.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go for it.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna go with you.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's actually real news.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_04: There was a lawyer that actually specializes in ransom negotiation with uh ransomware people, and it turns out that he's probably the guy that ran that website as well.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's your first one that's incorrect.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: So four out of five is a very strong start.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_04: So let's see how you fridge hack costing millions and sparking fires stemmed from poor security.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard about news in France.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if it's related.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I like the fact you've got some specifics though.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's more than most of us.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say it's news.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this this thing.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, all the fridges in supermarkets in France didn't work for three days because of a cyber attack.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Number seven.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_04: One, two, three, four, five, six password linked to Denmark data breach affecting 8.8 million people.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: That feels real on every level.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard the news about the database in Denmark.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if the password is correct, but it was like very simple passwords.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say news, I think.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hope this isn't a technicality with a password.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is news.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: And it's so sad.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, these these can't be passwords on like login fields.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_04: This must be hardwired passwords on hardware, on routers, and things like that.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: That basically nobody ever changed.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: So nobody's dumb enough to do one, two, three, four, five.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: No, I take that back.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_04: People are stupid.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: I am.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: Right, number eight.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: Microsoft integrates Copilot directly into Windows 11 taskbar, making it mandatory for all users.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not on Windows, so I haven't seen it, but it would it would make sense maybe.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I have Windows, but I don't even know what Copilot is.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I never used it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I know there is a button on my keyboard.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let's go with news.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's fake.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: I thought maybe they get a capital.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't think I lost it when they showed ads in the start bar, so that was weird, but they don't go that far yet.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: Number nine.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: Starbucks painted toilets with anti-wifi paint records twenty thirty-two percent average shorter use and fewer views.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's really funny.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: What even is that?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's fake.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'll go with you on that, but I I feel like it's so specific.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Should we go for fake?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_04: Good instrument.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_04: It is actually fake.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, sadly enough.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but there is anti-Wi-Fi paint you can buy that basically makes sure that your Wi-Fi doesn't go to the flat next to you.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_04: And we also made sure that mobile connectivity was never available on office toilets in Yahoo! and Microsoft because then people don't stay that long.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I had no idea about this.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is amazing.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I also think the headlines that you can barely understand because there's there's just like word soup, you know, like that, they're usually the ones that are real.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: So number 10.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: Someone torturing LLMs in a robot prison has triggered the dumbest database in AI yet.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: Dumbest debate.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hard to understand.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Robot prison?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that sounds like fake, but I I've never heard of any robot prisons.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or how can you make one?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say it's fake.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hope so.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_04: This one was actually news where somebody actually bombarded LLMs with fake information, and there was another another guy that actually stole one of those cameras, one of those flock cameras in America, and actually put them in his basement and showed it like screens, 8k screens of uh of traffic uh uh of license plates in like for like 200 milliseconds at a time to see how long it takes until the flock camera crashes.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: So people are using are doing that right now.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: We're not far away from the flash fields parties from the movie AI, I think.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, wow, number 11.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, it's a real discovery.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_04: Claude cracks a 25-year-old NSA number mystery.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen a few of these headlines of cracking mysteries.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you think?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've never I yeah, I've seen also I've heard about cracking mysteries, but I haven't heard about NSA number mystery.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is that supposed to be?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_04: Well, the NSA is National Security Agency in America, and they had a they had a cipher that was uncrackable.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: And really, we go with yeah, it sounds to me like fake.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, I paused our timer just there so we'd have time.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go for fake.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually news.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we've got one left.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see if we can get on the leaderboard.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_04: What if it is Google fonts to remove all.tf fonts because of copyright.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've not seen anything to do with that, and I like to keep up on my font news.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that's not true.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it's fake because Google fonts are usually free to use.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's only any copyright problems with them.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: Can you correct?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, it is fake.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_04: But PTF actually has a copyright on it, the format.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's basically a packaging format.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: The packaging format itself.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so there's a uh there's a licensing on there.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's why we got WAF, and that's why we got WAF2 as well.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_04: I love that we got WAF and Fido at the same time.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_04: So we got like the whole dog theme things.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's quite fun.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's great.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, what does that mean?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: What does that mean to a leaderboard?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_04: You are on place two.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: Very strong.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's exciting because it's exciting because you win fuck all.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_04: But like it's at the same time, it's your second on the leaderboard now.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it's a bit like in in Top Gear where people are like, why am I on this kind of thing?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: So let's talk about you and let's talk about Photo P.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, first of all, if you haven't seen it yet, photope.com, just go there and it's a Photoshop in the browser.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_04: It spins up immediately.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: You can start editing PSD files.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_04: You can actually start, uh, it comes up with a um with a uh an empty template, so you're actually using lyrics from the 90s music if you do.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_04: And um I paid for it for the last five years or something.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm really excited about it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm also very annoyed that although I pay, it actually tells me that I should turn off my ad blocker every single time.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't tell you this.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_04: It's uh I'm using uh I'm using um Edge with uh with what's it called?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_04: UBlock Origin.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and I'm also using LibriFox, so that might be the issue.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm using a VPN most of the time, but it's most of the time set to Czech Republic, so it should be it should be seeing it as my home.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it's it's a wonderful tool, and it really made my life much easier because the last Photoshop I had was Photoshop CC1, I think.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: And before that, it was Photoshop 6 and 5 and 4 that I paid for, and I didn't want to.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_04: And$50 a year sounded like a great thing.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, now what I've seen you in the headlines lately uh is that you actually have a lot of people cloning photop.com right now, and then even you're getting pull requests from these clones to fix, right?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_04: Is that something that happened?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_04: Or was it just a headline that doesn't?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_04: Not really.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there was just uh one project uh from some guy.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: I never I was never able to figure out who who he is or what's his name.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: He he just copied my code and uh he asked AI to remove all the ads and slightly changed some uh colors in the UI and he released it as his own product.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I uh I pointed out to him, hey, here's a proof that you used 99% of uh your code is actually my code, and then he started arguing and he removed it.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just one case where where he he originally started with with photo p the code of photo p and made just small adjustments to AI to release it as his own thing, but no, other than that, I'm not aware of anybody using uh my uh my code uh for their own projects.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_04: How many dependencies do you have on other source open source projects?
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you use any libraries or any conversion tools inside photo that actually are by other people?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I use uh um how it's called half buzz.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if you know it, but it's uh it's uh type sending uh software.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: So usually you can you give it like a word with in uh Unicode codes of whole world, and you give it a font, and it tells you what glyph should be put on what coordinate to create the whole word.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so for English it's super simple, it's just one glyph after another, left to right, but for Arabic, uh there should be different version of glyph on the beginning, or the end, in the middle of the word, and then uh you have even more complicated uh uh texts like uh Tai long.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thai, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thai, I think, is pretty complicated.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Khmer alphabet and these like uh Asian Urdu and stuff.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's really complicated.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all built inside HardBuzz, which is a library written in C.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the creators of HardBuzz uh made a WebAssembly version for me, which I use inside for P.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's cool.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_04: So he made that especially for you.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: You didn't have to do the WebAssembly version.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, yeah, I was actually studying the whole uh uh the whole uh specification of uh these things, and I was developing my own solution for a few years.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: And after I got really tired, I realized that the solution already exists and it shouldn't be hard to get a WebAssembly version.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: So after that, I switched uh the code.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I threw away the code that I've been working for hundreds of hours and I replaced it with hard buzz, and it worked really well.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_04: So you it started that you wanted to read PSD files, right?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_04: And then the rest came later.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, originally Photo P was not supposed to be a photo editor, it was just a web app for viewing PSD files.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was the original idea.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think because I I'd sort of I don't know, you imagine, don't you, when you kind of see something like that, that the you did have this big kind of mountain to climb in front of you right from day one, and you were like, Yes, I'm gonna rebuild.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: I would give up instantly somebody told me.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: But that's so interesting.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Just to sort of pick up on that, because we we actually kind of wanted to bring you on the show as well, because Chris, you'd um spoken to someone a couple of weeks ago who had kind of sent us a link, haven't they, and said, Oh, by the way, there's a cloned, uh, this person has cloned the entire Adobe suite and you can go and sort of use it now for free and things like this.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and you responded, Chris, and said, Look, it's not really about just like uh creating some features that are in these tools, it's the the user experience and the kind of edge cases and the details of those features that have really kind of allowed them to be as successful as they are.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's almost like what you're saying there about you know that you you might be able to um when you're talking about like the language details and all the things with Urdu and all the different languages, that's not the stuff that people are gonna be sharing when they say I've cloned this app.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna just show the the thing like opening a PSD and going, look, problem solved.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but actually like because they are going into it with the idea of I'm gonna clone Adobe's package, but actually no idea of quite how many decisions they will have to make along the way and how much time and effort that'll take.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I think yeah, that we also talked about the reverse-engineered versions, just basically uh taking the most the happy path solutions and not actually going into the nitty-gritty of the sub commands and these kinds of things.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: One of the big things where I love Photope is that the keyboard shortcuts are the same that I used to use in Photoshop.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: And that's I I know as a former browser maker, that's an absolute pain in the backside to make happen, right?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like how many clashes did you have to work around and how did you do that?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because I remember Google Docs still asked you to install an extension to get keyboard access.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's that's true.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are several keyboard shortcuts which browser wants to have for itself.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the the whole the the most awful one is uh control T for transforming.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in Photoshop, Control T is used for free transform, and it's been there for 30 years, and hundreds of millions of people are used to press control T, control D, and every time and like once a month, somebody makes a bug report that control T is not working, and I I always always have to explain listen, it's not me, it's the browsers which refuse to give websites a way to use control T.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so and so I have to use uh Ctrl Alt T, which browser ignores, and uh Photo P can detect it.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_04: You could do a WebAssembly version, then you get everything, but then again, you don't have any of the benefits of the DOM as well.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um I think like 95% of my users uh would not uh want to install something to their computers, they just enjoy the fact that you can just open a website, do what you need, and close it, and it's gone.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not staying on your device permanently.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's what many people appreciate.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: One thing that allows you to do is actually install your own fonts and use them in local storage.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that's something that I found really beneficial and useful as well.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_04: Because that's something I mean, where are all these fonts from that you have in there?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's tons of them.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_04: Is that like the free Google fonts, or is that another library that you have?
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: We have there is uh a database of maybe like 7,000 fonts in PhotoP.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And uh they are free fonts, free to use for commercial purposes.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they are come from all around the world, all around the various uh services like Google Fonts mostly, and there is like FontSquirl, and I think some other databases, and actually many many fonts exist on uh several locations, like this font is both in Google Fonts, in FontSquirl, or somewhere else.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I have I just like uh I have my own scripts which look into these databases, then uh and they try to download all the fonts into one uh folder and remove duplicities, and that's how I create the database.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, uh I there are piracy websites for fonts, it's hilarious, actually.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_04: That's just like the amount of like also malware in font files is just a big thing as well.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's good that you have a lot of them to choose from and people don't have to come up with their own stuff.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you can load your own fonts from your computer into Photo P.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have like TTF, OTF file on your computer, then you can load it into PhotoP.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if you bought a font somewhere, you can use it with Photo P.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking then about one thing about um because I was talking to a friend and and I always kind of use the these people that don't really have much to do with tech as a good kind of measurement of like some of the other things that we don't always think of because we're so sort of in amongst it, you know.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: But this idea of like the privacy first software, and uh a friend of mine who just doesn't he like openly doesn't know much about computers.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's just missed he's kind of calls himself granddad whenever he's on a computer, you know?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he was talking about an app, and I don't remember what the the purpose was, but he said, Oh, what I quite like is that it's privacy first.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh okay, that's not the sort of thing I would usually expect him to say.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then what he said to me was, What I mean is is that it doesn't upload it anywhere, right?
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now his understanding was just that he was working with a photo and that he just understood enough to know that it was all happening on his phone.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, that's something that like at least that understanding of like it's happening on your phone is something.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's kind of in the backdrop of all of this stuff, right?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: We know we've got kind of uh data sovereignty as like a more of an important topic around different continents, but that also we know that like there's agents indexing everything and scraping everything and then just it, you know, ingesting it in.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's almost this sort of uh for some people who maybe are not that technical, they're they're still seeing the kind of privacy first on your device, deleted when I'm gone, and they're actually understanding the benefits of it now.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that even though we think of AI as like the threats to Photo P in some way, like people stealing the code, I don't know if it's that simple.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's always going to be a uh a kind of a fairly sizable number of people that see the benefits and they don't want the all-singing over-the-top over-engineered AI version that comes with the subscription-based alternative, you know?
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_04: In terms, in terms of uh features, yeah, that's I mean, there's two things that I wondered about.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_04: First of all, like, did you get any trouble with uh with Adobe because of it?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_04: Did they come after you or anything?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I I never used uh code from anybody else uh without permission, and Adobe doesn't have any code uh like open source, so there's no way to um to use their code for me.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: But usually when uh somebody asks me, hey, look, there is the new feature in Photoshop which does this and that, I'd have to look into it, uh, find YouTube videos, how it's used, and uh try to come up with my own algorithm on uh how how could it be achieved.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you read some scientific papers about the research and then spend several weeks trying to build it.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: You're such a nerd, I love it.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love doing it actually.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it was so exciting when I uh, for example, when I was making the web app for PSD files, I was aware that only Adobe Photoshop can open them properly right now in 2013.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like GIMP cannot open them properly.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no other editor could uh uh render Photoshop files properly.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was like excited about doing something with what does not exist yet.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I mean what what is it?
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_04: PSD?
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_04: Is it a zip format?
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_04: Is it a uh container format?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is it it's a container format for uh bitmap graphics?
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: It has like unlike PNG, it has layers in it, so they can be many layers of uh of the image and coordinates of each layer, and it can have uh layer styles attached to each layer, like uh drop shadow, and it's actually publicly documented by Adobe.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Adobe has a documentation on its website.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean uh I had I at one time I had to use XSL TFO to generate PDFs from XML files, and yeah, that was not three months of my life I want to have back because some of the image formats out there are absolutely mental.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, EPS encapsulated PostScript, that could be anything.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like you have no idea what your file is.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just being a PDF, really.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like EPS, I always end up just using as a PDF.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: Where you start going, what's the benefit to this over PDF?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like some of the formats, and and I suppose when you when you also know that most people are going to be bouncing things down or exporting them rather as like PNGs or JPEGs and GIF slash GIF, if you want to call it that, you know, like you're having to serve all these other formats actually for for probably quite a small number of people, but you have to do it, right?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_04: I love all these websites that allow you to download uh transparent uh background images, and oftentimes it's just a GIF with like a white line around it and like random pixels, and you're like, this is not this is not a transparent page.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_04: This is just really horrible.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, I mean the thing about it when you said earlier that you that you always wanted to make sure that everything runs on people's computers, and that one I guess allowed you to scale much faster than anything else because you don't have much uh server traffic and you don't have to host all that stuff, right?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, I I was paying like$50 a year for my server up until recently, and and now I'm paying$500 a year, but it's still enough.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very cool to hear the inner workings of that as well, because you because you know, I think we're always curious, aren't we, about software like yours, where you know we we see it around, it becomes a staple of the internet, but you just never quite know A how much it costs to run and B, like you said, Chris, how many people are using it and and that people are paying for it as a as a kind of a monthly thing.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's really cool to know that it doesn't cost you a lot to run as well.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I looked at uh uh seeing that you are a nerd like us, uh uh I saw so many podcasts of you lately when I when I was doing the research for that from a few years ago, where people basically saying, like, oh, he's a millionaire now with a$50 a month uh thing and you make so many more millions with that every year.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_04: How do you feel about being thrown into that world of like here's a startup cool success guy?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: It feels feels nice, yeah.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I still make most of my money from ads, not from uh people paying for premium.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was it was quite surprising to to see Photopeia grow so fast in the past.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not growing that fast anymore, but in the past I was like really uh overwhelmed by all all the stuff happening around.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh right now I I make like one interview a year, but back then it was like two interviews a month for a whole year.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_04: There are a lot of them in Czech as well.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen, so it seems like they may be YouTubers and Czech press are interested in it.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um one thing that I always found interesting as well, but you just said like that the it's it's declining now, and I think that will happen more.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_04: Now that every gen AI company basically says like just create images, don't actually edit them, don't actually do stuff.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think the the case of editing photos and changing photos in an in an IDE or in a tool might actually be a thing of the past when you think about it.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because in people take selfies, use filters, uh use filters on like things like Snapchat, and now basically people take selfies, put them in chat GPT, and let them do things with it.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that like the the uh the editing thing will go even further?
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you are you worried about that your audience will go away because people just generate stuff now?
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it might.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, it's it's a question whether people will switch from uh uh classic photo editors to fully AI uh prompt-based uh editing.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it will be because uh it's it just works better, you can achieve uh what you want to do faster, or maybe the new generation will refuse to learn how to use uh photo editor because you know in Photoshop, in PhotoP, in GIMP, there are so many buttons, so many, so many menus.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: You should understand how layers work, how pixels work, and you it it all takes time to learn how to use it.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe like the new generation, like people who are 10-year-old, 12, uh, 15-year-old right now, they will they might refuse to learn all this stuff, to read books about uh photo editing, and they would prefer to use AI tools.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe yeah, maybe our generation of people used to do everything the hard way will slowly go away and uh will be replaced by others.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_04: I uh I I remember you could make a lot of money with Photoshop books explaining Photoshop to people, and that one that market is gone because now all the documentation comes with the operating uh comes with the company itself, and all of it is online, and people read it online rather than buying the book to get into it.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: And people uh also the YouTube uh channels about Photoshop and photo editing, they were really popular, also.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are still popular, but not as many of them.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: And even I do it when I cannot uh figure out how to do something in some software, I ask AI, I don't look online because I I I just uh write a question with 10 words and it gives me the answer right away, and it's faster than uh Googling it.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think even like the books or the YouTube videos about something, it becomes less and less uh needed.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_04: I guess it's also it shot itself in the foot by like putting a lot of ads in there as well.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm like, okay, how do I how do I crop an image and then you got like a seven and a half minute video with like three ads in it, and at the end it tells you the one thing that the keyboard shortcut that you wanted to know that could have been a website.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I think the the the education part on YouTube became a very uh much a uh show more ads or show sponsors rather than show the thing.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: And actually uh the Google search now, right now it tells you the AI answer at the top, right?
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's enough for half of the people.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: So nobody actually so only half of people actually goes to some website, right?
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Another half is uh okay with the answer from the AI.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe at some point there will be 99% of people who will just ask Google uh for that AI answer, and they will not uh expect anything else.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I would expect Google to say, like, give me the image and I remove the background for you.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's that would be the next step kind of thing.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't you don't even need to use it in your tool anymore.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_04: So that's where they want us to go to actually use everything in there.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_04: In terms of you're doing something in the browser that's very uh um, I mean, some of the bits in Photoshop were really, really hard on the machine, like drop shadows back then, uh uh like uh different clouds, these kind of things.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_04: I always use that to test the speed of my machine.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but uh do you have lots of reports about people saying that Photoshop Photo P crashes on or that it's too slow, or did we do a good enough job in browsers that it's not a worry anymore?
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think most of users are fine with how it works, but sometimes it crashes and it's some it happens when you have like eight gigabytes of RAM and you are running several uh many browser tabs, and then you open like uh 300 megabyte PSD and you try to clone a layer several times, and and each copy of a layer takes 100 megabytes.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And uh once uh once computer runs other RAM, your browser simply kills PhotoP.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it might happen, especially if if you you are low on RAM and you work with large files, it might happen.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this limitation uh does uh not exist in Photoshop because Photoshop can uh do uh caching uh to the hard drive, but it's not available in Photop yet, so you are in Photop you are limited by the size of your RAM memory.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you got the PWA version that would allow you to store things on uh on device.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_04: Because that's not interfered, because there are the other tabs don't interfere with it because it's its own thread, right?
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I think I could store uh stuff.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, it's it's more like uh reading the part of the file which you need, not reading the whole file into RAM.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so for example, when you have a hundred megabyte, 100 gigabyte PSD file, you probably don't have enough RAM to read it whole.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not possible to open Photo P, but it's possible in Photoshop, which reads only uh small portions of the file to show you the preview.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a different method of processing files in PhotoP.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_04: I think it would be possible to do in web.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_04: There will file streaming APIs coming and they're actually being uh being standardized now.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's an interesting one to come.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are these APIs, but it will require me to remake all my code that I've been writing for 14 years, so I haven't had time for that yet.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_04: How big is it?
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_04: How how big is the code base?
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like lines of code files.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think it's 160,000.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have it right here, so let me check.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right now it's five 5.2 megabytes of code.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's unminified unminified and it is uh it's yeah, 155,000 of lines of code that's written by me over the years.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_04: And not documented, of course, because you didn't have to care about that.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I try to write some comments from from time to time just for my for my future self.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if something is confusing, I I write comments for myself.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_04: Daniel, I stopped you from saying something.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_04: What was it?
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_04: You probably forgot by now, right?
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, well and really forgot, but um, yeah.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no idea.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was a long time ago.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, yeah, very cool.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Good to listen to this conversation then.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_04: Excellent.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_04: This was this was wonderful to have you on the show to learn about the ins and outs of Photope.
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, if anybody else wants to do uh Illustrator in the browser next, good luck.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and we go from there.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_04: Any last words you have for our audience, Ivan?
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_04: Ivan?
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure to be here, and I'm glad that people are interested in uh new new tools, new development with AI.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: PhotoP is not fully made by AI yet, so sorry for that.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe the photo p of 2030 will be fully written by AI.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_04: And only used by agents and not by humans anymore.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I guess that's that's where it did.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we we don't need interfaces for agents, we need APIs for agents.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_04: So uh it will be interesting to get that kind of stuff.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thanks very much.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_04: This was uh this was great.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Dan, any last words from you before we let people go on their holiday breaks?
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just gotta say a big thank you to Ivan, really, because you know, like I said, I had so many students over the years kind of saving their their hard-earned money, and they had very little of it by using Photo P.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're a massive fan of software, open source software, things that's that are that that's free out there, things built by individuals, and you kind of tick uh at least two of those.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, we um we really like having you on.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh thanks again on behalf of all those people and for myself, because I I used it a lot over the years as well.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's great to have you on.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_04: Cool.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thanks very much.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_04: This was We Developers Live for today.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we're gonna see you in India.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_04: We both got our visa now, and uh, we're gonna be traveling and packing our stuff our bags soon.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_04: Next Wednesday, uh, we're gonna have a recorded version, I think, on Tuesday afternoon.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna be with a person from India.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_04: So uh that's gonna be interesting as well.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_04: And uh have a go at that uh without love code competition.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm in I'm interested to see what you can do.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_04: And if you need any graphics for it, use photo pee.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, nice.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks very much.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_04: Bye bye.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_04: Bye bye, guys.