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Setting Boundaries that Stick with Jules Taylor Shore · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Trauma Thepist podcast Plus listeners can listen to episodes early
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Speaker 1: going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma Thepist podcast
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Speaker 1: and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma neverst Podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson, and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. All right,
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Speaker 1: it Jewles, here we go, So we are ready five
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Speaker 1: for three, two and one, our folks, welcome back to
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Speaker 1: the podcast. Super excited to happen with my guest today,
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Speaker 1: Jules Taylor Shore.
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Speaker 2: Jules, welcome, Ah, thanks for having me. I'm so thrilled
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Speaker 2: to be here.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. So Jules is the therapist, author, teacher, and mom
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Speaker 1: who's creating spaces where people can move into more self compassion,
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Speaker 1: self trust, empowerment, and integrity. She regularly teaches and speaks
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Speaker 1: to people from all over the world and translates new
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Speaker 1: understandings and neurobiology into practices that can support brain change.
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Speaker 1: She's the author of Setting Boundaries that Stick. How neurobiology
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Speaker 1: can help you rewire your brain to feel safe, connected
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Speaker 1: and empowered. Jule, Welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thanks so much. It's great to be here and thanks
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Speaker 2: to everybody listening. And it is our most precious resource,
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Speaker 2: right you are gifting me with your time, so cheers.
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Speaker 2: Everybody appreciate that.
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Speaker 1: So before we get going, share with the listeners where
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Speaker 1: you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: Right, So, I grew up as an American mutt, moving
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Speaker 2: a lot all around the country. I didn't grow up
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Speaker 2: in one spot. I was the longest. I was a
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Speaker 2: place with two and a half years. Well, so bounced, bounced, bounced,
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Speaker 2: not military other stuff going on, but bounced a lot
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Speaker 2: to a lot of different and states. I've lived in
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Speaker 2: the West Coast, I've lived in the South, I've lived
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Speaker 2: in the Northeast. So lots of different spots. And now
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Speaker 2: you know what happened is I married a person who's
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Speaker 2: not as nomadic as me in Austin, Texas and now
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Speaker 2: I've been here for twenty years.
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Speaker 1: Oh wow.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I landed despite myself in one spot Austin.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Marieko, I've never been there. I've heard a lot
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Speaker 1: of things, and you've been there as what appears to
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Speaker 1: be a change has happened in it.
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Speaker 2: That's yeah. When I moved here, it was it was
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Speaker 2: still a small towny sort of feel twenty years ago
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Speaker 2: when I got here, and even when I landed here,
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Speaker 2: people were like, stop moving here. So I was one
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Speaker 2: of the people who invaded this city a long time ago,
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Speaker 2: and it has changed enormously since I've been here. I
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Speaker 2: was telling my husband the other day, I was like, Oh,
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Speaker 2: I feel like we moved without moving because the city
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Speaker 2: changed around us so much.
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Speaker 1: So before we were recording, I mentioned to you, how
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Speaker 1: I feel you've kind of distinguished yourself in the field
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Speaker 1: of mental health in terms of focusing what appears to
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Speaker 1: be on boundaries and the neurobiology and how this impacted
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Speaker 1: and so forth. How did this all start for you,
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Speaker 1: this interest in right becoming a therapist and then we'll
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Speaker 1: get more specifically into boundaries and so forth.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I started doing therapy the way lots
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Speaker 2: of us start, which was by being a client. So
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Speaker 2: this is a second career for me. I did not
3:45
Speaker 2: start out doing this. I have a background in theater.
3:48
Speaker 2: I was a director in New York for a while.
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Speaker 2: I decided I decided that it was really, really, really
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Speaker 2: hard to make a living in that And I grew
3:59
Speaker 2: up in a family that has a lot of wings
4:04
Speaker 2: in auto industry, and I know how to work on cars.
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Speaker 2: So I left New York was an auto mechanic for
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Speaker 2: a while here and then and then was in a
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Speaker 2: really hard space in my own life. I thought therapy
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Speaker 2: was super dumb. I was not ever going to do it,
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Speaker 2: and ended up in desperation because I was so helpless
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Speaker 2: and hopeless in that moment in my life, I did
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Speaker 2: not know what else to do. I did sometimes walk
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Speaker 2: out of my therapist's office telling him this is dumb
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Speaker 2: and I'm not doing it anymore, and then I would
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Speaker 2: keep showing up the next week. I'm one of those
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Speaker 2: I'm one of your toughest clients, y'all. Anyway, So yeah,
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Speaker 2: So I found that over time it really helped me
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Speaker 2: shift things in ways I didn't think it was possible,
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Speaker 2: and recognized my own history of a pretty intense trauma
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Speaker 2: during that time and was able to really wrap my
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Speaker 2: head around, oh wait, therapy maybe could be something not
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Speaker 2: just that changes folks, who provides a space where change
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Speaker 2: is more possible. But maybe I could do it. So
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Speaker 2: two years in, I'm still I'm still turning wrenches for
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Speaker 2: a living. And I'd looked at my therapists. I was like, Patrick,
5:24
Speaker 2: how did you get your job? I think I might
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Speaker 2: want it, And he told me about going to grad
5:29
Speaker 2: school and what you had to do. And I applied
5:32
Speaker 2: and I got in a couple places, and one of
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Speaker 2: them was here in Austin, and so I ended up
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Speaker 2: going to grad school. And then inside of that process,
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Speaker 2: I got really interested in neurobiology. So I went to
5:44
Speaker 2: grad school. I started in five oh six something around there,
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Speaker 2: and I'm terrible with dates. My mind does not do
5:53
Speaker 2: time in that way. So sometime around that ish and
5:57
Speaker 2: back then or I don't know, maybe it was a
6:00
Speaker 2: pocket in time, or maybe it was my university that
6:04
Speaker 2: I was going to. There were no classes on the brain,
6:09
Speaker 2: which as a mechanics struck me as super weird because
6:12
Speaker 2: I would never ask one of my guys to work
6:14
Speaker 2: on a break system if they didn't understand how breaks worked.
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Speaker 2: Why are you asking me to help people with their
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Speaker 2: brains if I don't know how brain works? And that, yeah,
6:24
Speaker 2: that led me down a path of pulling in some
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Speaker 2: friend and family contacts who had some connections with Vanderbilt
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Speaker 2: Medical School, and I ended up being able to go
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Speaker 2: and do classes there in the medical program corresponded like
6:42
Speaker 2: not for credit, like just like, oh hey, can I
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Speaker 2: come and audit this class? And so I would take
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Speaker 2: in the summers and sometimes at distance would take medical
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Speaker 2: school neuroscience classes. Got really interested in it. I have
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Speaker 2: a science in mind, and it worked really well with
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Speaker 2: how I think anyway, and so it Yeah, I went
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Speaker 2: down that path and then ended up in interpersonal neurobiology
7:09
Speaker 2: land studying with Dan Siegel and Bonnie Badnock for a while,
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Speaker 2: and all of that helped me see how the different
7:20
Speaker 2: techniques we were doing were working. It made it more
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Speaker 2: clear to me, Oh, is what is it that's changing brains?
7:27
Speaker 2: And so then I ended up really specializing in neurobiology,
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Speaker 2: interpersonal neurobiology in particular, and wanting to help synthesize all
7:39
Speaker 2: this information so that we could help clinicians not have
7:44
Speaker 2: to learn the entire brain, but know enough and particularly translate,
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Speaker 2: Oh here's the research, here's what that might mean clinically,
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Speaker 2: what can we do? And so then I ended up
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Speaker 2: teaching quite a lot helping people understand how brains work
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Speaker 2: in a way that's a little bit more howatable.
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Speaker 1: That's yeah, yeah, yeah interesting when you you said initially
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Speaker 1: you were like therapy, No, don't want to do it.
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Speaker 1: You obviously found a therapist, something clicked, what was working
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Speaker 1: for you at that moment.
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Speaker 2: He costs five dollars an hour, and that's how much
8:26
Speaker 2: money I had. I was seriously. He was at a
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Speaker 2: community clinic and I got assigned to him, And you know,
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Speaker 2: part of I think part of my history led me
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Speaker 2: to be a person who discounts needs or doesn't think
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Speaker 2: about doesn't think about advocating for myself very well, especially
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Speaker 2: not at that time. That's very different now. But I
8:52
Speaker 2: think that history led to like I never even questioned,
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Speaker 2: like is this working for me? No, it did, and
8:59
Speaker 2: he was awesome. And I'll tell you there were I
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Speaker 2: tell my interns this all the time, for the people
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Speaker 2: who are like studying with me in their postgraduate work.
9:10
Speaker 2: I I can look back now that I have quite
9:15
Speaker 2: a lot of trauma training under my belt. I can
9:18
Speaker 2: look back and go, oh, yeah, he didn't actually know
9:21
Speaker 2: that much about trauma training. And I can look back
9:24
Speaker 2: and go, oh yeah, I found out later when I graduated.
9:27
Speaker 2: I was his first client ever. He was a like
9:31
Speaker 2: practicum student inside of a university. I must have blown
9:35
Speaker 2: his mind, poor sweetee. So so you know, he's doing
9:41
Speaker 2: his practicum and internship work and I'm seeing him. He
9:45
Speaker 2: was a brand new therapist. And I think there were
9:47
Speaker 2: two things that made our work really, really helpful. I
9:52
Speaker 2: was in a domestic violence relationship at that time and
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Speaker 2: kept moving out and going back into it and moving
9:58
Speaker 2: out and going back into it. And he managed whatever
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Speaker 2: he had to do on the inside. He managed not
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Speaker 2: to judge me for that, and that was huge. I
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Speaker 2: think that was a big piece of our work together,
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Speaker 2: was to be in an environment where I could be
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Speaker 2: honest about what was happening in my life but not
10:18
Speaker 2: be have that kind of shamed like what are you doing?
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Speaker 2: Isn't this wrong? Isn't this not healthy? On me? How
10:27
Speaker 2: come you're not leaving? I think he did that really well.
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Speaker 2: And I think he genuinely cared about my well being
10:36
Speaker 2: at the same time. And I think that there was
10:39
Speaker 2: a magical combination of that that even though maybe he
10:44
Speaker 2: was brand new and he didn't have the skill set
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Speaker 2: and blah blah blah blah blah. Even though there are
10:49
Speaker 2: some trainings or some therapists. I've seen later in my
10:52
Speaker 2: life who did have those skill sets, and those were
10:54
Speaker 2: magic experiences for different reasons. I do think, Oh, here's
10:59
Speaker 2: the you know, don't judge people and care and you'll
11:05
Speaker 2: go a long way in helping someone find their way
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Speaker 2: out of really hard spaces.
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Speaker 1: Right, really interesting. So I'm curious about this. Obviously, you're
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Speaker 1: you're what appears to be a passion for neurobiology and
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Speaker 1: boundaries and empowerment. Does all this.
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Speaker 2: What's invented into that?
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Speaker 1: How?
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Speaker 2: Right? Here's what was happening is I was just helping
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Speaker 2: my clients face hard realities. I'm a couples therapist, I'm
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Speaker 2: a trauma specialist. Love of my clients are couples who
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Speaker 2: have complex drama histories, right, So I was just helping
11:44
Speaker 2: them face hard stuff that is reality in our life
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Speaker 2: that we're not going to get away from. Oh, you
11:50
Speaker 2: could take one piece of stimulus from the outside. You
11:54
Speaker 2: could take one thing that happens, and five people see
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Speaker 2: it and they have five different emotional responses to it.
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Speaker 2: Of course they do. Brains are different because we all
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Speaker 2: live into our histories and we have different DNA that
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Speaker 2: made each brain its own little unique domination and I'm
12:11
Speaker 2: never going to be able to change that. And you
12:14
Speaker 2: all trying to get that to change to make people
12:17
Speaker 2: feel more same as you in order to feel safe
12:21
Speaker 2: is never going to work because they're not same as you.
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Speaker 2: And what if that's okay? Can we build safety while
12:27
Speaker 2: we recognize that. That's how the psychological boundary was born.
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Speaker 2: So I started looking into, Oh, what parts of the
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Speaker 2: brain are actually guessing what's happening in other people's minds
12:40
Speaker 2: those parts of the brain. So that's the mentalization neural network. Oh,
12:45
Speaker 2: that's a spread out network, but its hub is in
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Speaker 2: the superior tempo sulcus and the temporal briietal junction, which
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Speaker 2: is kind of deep in the brain. Oh, what is
12:56
Speaker 2: what language does that part of the brain speak? It
12:58
Speaker 2: speaks image and metaphor, by the way, And what is
13:02
Speaker 2: it listening to? Oh, the afferent wiring is actually coming
13:06
Speaker 2: from areas that are listening to your visceral sensations. Oh wait,
13:10
Speaker 2: so that means that the network in your brain that's
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Speaker 2: guessing really fast, it's got a super fast processing speed
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Speaker 2: to a twelve of a second. It's guessing really quick
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Speaker 2: what's happening in somebody else? And it's listening to your
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Speaker 2: belly and heart to do it, and it's speaking to
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Speaker 2: you in image and metaphor to let you know what's
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Speaker 2: actually up with them. Oh, and then it's happening so
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Speaker 2: fast you're not putting appliues between that guess and believing
13:37
Speaker 2: that guest to be true. And so I that one
13:41
Speaker 2: came out of that. Or here's another hard reality. I
13:45
Speaker 2: want to live in my value system, but my lower
13:49
Speaker 2: brain works at such speed and my triggers happen so
13:53
Speaker 2: fast that sometimes I'm behaving in ways that don't match
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Speaker 2: my value system. What do we do with that containing
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Speaker 2: boundary was born? How do we help utilize the neurobiology
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Speaker 2: of compassion, the speed of the basal ganglia, the moral reasoning,
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Speaker 2: and quick access of the prefrontal cortex and tie them
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Speaker 2: together in both the bottom up and top down process simultaneously. Oh,
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Speaker 2: could you create a practice that activates that so that
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Speaker 2: you can support yourself well, even in triggered moments, even
14:27
Speaker 2: in really reactive moments, even in really hard moments, so
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Speaker 2: that you can put a pause between what you feel
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Speaker 2: and what you do, so that Oh, now I have
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Speaker 2: the choice of maybe doing something that is a little
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Speaker 2: bit more matching of how I want to show up
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Speaker 2: in the world.
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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, let's I am?
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Speaker 2: I am, I going right right now.
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Speaker 1: It's just it's very intense, and I'm wondering, for the
14:52
Speaker 1: for the sake of our listeners, if we can put
14:54
Speaker 1: this into what would this look like when you're working
14:58
Speaker 1: with someone?
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Speaker 2: Well, well, it depends on yes, exactly what does all this?
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Speaker 2: What does all this look like? It depends on which
15:06
Speaker 2: kind of boundary I'm working with. So I talk about
15:08
Speaker 2: four boundaries in my book. Let's do the containing one,
15:11
Speaker 2: because that's the one we just talked about. So that's
15:14
Speaker 2: where I'm going to put a pause between what I
15:15
Speaker 2: feel and what I do. And so if I'm working
15:18
Speaker 2: with somebody who is in my office, they're wanting that skill.
15:23
Speaker 2: The first thing we're going to do, the skill of
15:26
Speaker 2: putting a pause between what they feel and what they do.
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Speaker 2: I want a containing boundary in my life. I've noticed
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Speaker 2: I have these behaviors. They're not in line with my
15:35
Speaker 2: value system. I want that to change. The first thing
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Speaker 2: I'm going to do is tell them, well, one, of course,
15:42
Speaker 2: it's really hard to put a pause. You have a
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Speaker 2: fast brain on the bottom and a slower brain on top,
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Speaker 2: and the slower brain is where you're going to remember
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Speaker 2: who you are in like a value centered way. Moral
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Speaker 2: reasoning is integrating up in that third eye position. All
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Speaker 2: that very center park medial prefrontal cortex is doing a
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Speaker 2: lot of your moral reasoning for you. And that's pretty
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Speaker 2: slow compared to that trigger, compared to those feelings. The
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Speaker 2: first thing I'm just going to do is say, guess what,
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Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with your neurobiologically. We understand exactly why
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Speaker 2: this is happening, no biggie. And also you want to
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Speaker 2: do something different, great, And we're going to build that
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Speaker 2: with three tools, and we're going to weave those into
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Speaker 2: a single tool in the end. The first tool I'm
16:30
Speaker 2: going to do is I'm going to help them find
16:32
Speaker 2: a gesture, a movement in their body that's going to
16:36
Speaker 2: mean to them compassion. In order to find that, what
16:43
Speaker 2: I do is I have them think about somebody who's
16:47
Speaker 2: not too challenging for them, not complex relationships. So sometimes
16:50
Speaker 2: I wouldn't lean towards a partner maybe, or towards a
16:54
Speaker 2: boss or something like that. Maybe towards a kid, their
16:58
Speaker 2: own child, maybe towards a niece or nephew, maybe towards
17:02
Speaker 2: a dear friend who they have a really good connection with.
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Speaker 2: Let's imagine something hard happened for them. Can you let
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Speaker 2: your body fill up with that feeling of compassion for them?
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Speaker 2: And then can you just notice how your body wants
17:17
Speaker 2: to move when you think about offering them care And
17:23
Speaker 2: that sometimes will elicit a little bit of a movement.
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Speaker 2: For folks, sometimes what they need is to feel that
17:30
Speaker 2: feeling and then just notice, Oh, okay, if I had
17:34
Speaker 2: a movement that meant this feeling to me, what would
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Speaker 2: that movement be. So I've had people, for anybody who's listening,
17:42
Speaker 2: I'm just holding my hands up in front of me
17:44
Speaker 2: and I'm opening them out like I'm holding a bowl.
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Speaker 2: Oh I've got people go, oh yeah, it's this. It's
17:50
Speaker 2: like oh kindness. Other people they're like, oh, it's this
17:56
Speaker 2: shoulder thing where I remember I'm about to hug them
18:00
Speaker 2: times all oh sweetie, putting a hand on a heart. Right,
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Speaker 2: So sometimes it's different than that. I've had a musician
18:09
Speaker 2: who had this, and their music is all about spreading
18:13
Speaker 2: kindness to the world, and so of course that makes
18:17
Speaker 2: sense for them, right. So a gesture that's uniquely yours.
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Speaker 2: That's going to mean to you compassion. Now, why on
18:23
Speaker 2: earth do we want a gesture? Because of the basal ganglia,
18:27
Speaker 2: which is a part in your lower brain, so it's
18:30
Speaker 2: subcortical way down deep in the middle of your brain.
18:34
Speaker 2: It's wrapped all around your limbic system, and it does
18:37
Speaker 2: procedural movement and the emotional meaning of movement. So if
18:41
Speaker 2: I put my fist up to give you a fist
18:44
Speaker 2: bump right right in a social situation, you don't have
18:48
Speaker 2: to guess that that means camaraderie. If I gave you
18:51
Speaker 2: a high five, you don't have to guess that that
18:52
Speaker 2: means support. You just know what that means. If I
18:55
Speaker 2: put my thumb up in the air or I made
18:58
Speaker 2: little heart hands, nobody has to guess what that means
19:02
Speaker 2: because your basil gankly already knows the emotional meaning of
19:05
Speaker 2: that movement. So what we're going to do is we're
19:08
Speaker 2: going to hook in a speedy lower part of the
19:11
Speaker 2: brain to remind us ooh, in real time of compassion.
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Speaker 1: Now, let me introduct to you for a second. Why.
19:18
Speaker 1: I mean, I can surmise, but why compassion? Why?
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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Because compassion releases gabba, which is an inhibitory
19:27
Speaker 2: neurochemical into the lower brain, and particularly when you're in
19:31
Speaker 2: self compassion, because we're going to start pointing it out,
19:34
Speaker 2: but then we're going to learn to point it in
19:37
Speaker 2: self compassion releases gabba in the amegdala fear processor, the
19:43
Speaker 2: antire insula pain introceptive pain processor, and the anterior cingulate
19:49
Speaker 2: cortex meaning of pain and meaning of fear fear processing space.
19:55
Speaker 2: So we're gonna release gabba, which is going to go
19:58
Speaker 2: sh to all of those fear and pain processors by
20:06
Speaker 2: reminding ourselves of self compassion in real time, right, and
20:11
Speaker 2: we're going to put it at the speed of the
20:13
Speaker 2: basil ganglia. That way, we hook a lower brain speed
20:17
Speaker 2: into our containing boundary. So that's part one of it, right.
20:22
Speaker 2: Part two is remembering a value word. So I have
20:27
Speaker 2: people come up with two value words. One is a
20:30
Speaker 2: value word for who they want to be in their
20:33
Speaker 2: own integrity, and the second is a relational intention value
20:38
Speaker 2: word that's who they want to be in relationship. And
20:43
Speaker 2: so I do a little exercise with them which is
20:46
Speaker 2: detailed in my book. If anybody wants to find out
20:48
Speaker 2: more about that, you can access that there. But I
20:52
Speaker 2: lead them through a little exercise and we work with
20:55
Speaker 2: ooh finding a word that means this is who I
20:59
Speaker 2: want to be. So my personal integrity word is courage.
21:04
Speaker 2: And what I noticed when I was doing my exercise
21:07
Speaker 2: where I pictured myself in a really good moment and
21:10
Speaker 2: I'm trying to describe, Oh, who is that person? What
21:14
Speaker 2: is that person like? What are they doing that's so great?
21:18
Speaker 2: And I noticed that everything I was describing it had
21:23
Speaker 2: to have courage as part of it. So courage is
21:26
Speaker 2: the word that reminds me to step into my value system. Right,
21:31
Speaker 2: So we do that exercise, and then the third piece
21:34
Speaker 2: is relational intention word. So that's where I have somebody
21:38
Speaker 2: come up with an example of themselves showing up well
21:41
Speaker 2: with someone they don't know very well, someone who's under
21:45
Speaker 2: them in a power dynamic, So if you're a therapist,
21:47
Speaker 2: like a client, or maybe a parent like a child,
21:51
Speaker 2: somebody who's dependent on you in a power down sort
21:53
Speaker 2: of situation. And then someone who's a peer, so it
21:58
Speaker 2: could be a partner or a close friend or a
22:01
Speaker 2: work colleague. Oh, in all three of these scenarios, I
22:05
Speaker 2: showed up really really well. Is there a small word
22:09
Speaker 2: or phrase that could remind you of what was the
22:12
Speaker 2: same about each one of those scenarios. Because each one
22:16
Speaker 2: of those scenarios you showed up with great relational intention.
22:19
Speaker 2: I bet there's something in common with all of them.
22:23
Speaker 2: So these are the ways I help clients find their words.
22:26
Speaker 2: So my word is kindness, and so then I practice
22:30
Speaker 2: hooking that all together. So my gesture is a hand
22:34
Speaker 2: on heart that reminds me of the compassion, and I
22:38
Speaker 2: remind myself who I am courage, how I want to
22:41
Speaker 2: be with others' kindness. And there in a moment, now
22:46
Speaker 2: I could get ooh, there's for example, Like earlier today,
22:52
Speaker 2: I had a moment with my husband, my sweet family
22:56
Speaker 2: has moved recently inside of Austin to fixer upper, and
23:01
Speaker 2: we are having some challenging things come up, as is
23:05
Speaker 2: common with those experiences. And he was in a pretty
23:09
Speaker 2: dysregulated stayed a little earlier today, and everything in me
23:14
Speaker 2: wanted to jump in and manage that. And honestly, he
23:18
Speaker 2: was not doing anything to me. I could just tell
23:21
Speaker 2: he was in distress. He's freaking out a little bit.
23:25
Speaker 2: He's like muttering to himself while writing notes, looking at
23:29
Speaker 2: his phone about something and then writing something else down
23:32
Speaker 2: and I asked him once, do you need any help
23:35
Speaker 2: with anything? No, I can't write now. He was flooded
23:39
Speaker 2: like okay, And everything in me wanted to go in
23:43
Speaker 2: there and manage that feeling, right, because one of the
23:45
Speaker 2: ways I kept myself safer when I was growing up
23:48
Speaker 2: was making sure everybody was okay around me. Right, instead
23:52
Speaker 2: of doing that, I can notice that impulse and greet it,
23:56
Speaker 2: courage find miss and remember what that's absolutely the kindest
24:02
Speaker 2: thing I could do for him? Is it managing him
24:04
Speaker 2: right now?
24:05
Speaker 1: Now?
24:06
Speaker 2: What's the most courageous thing I could do for me? Well,
24:10
Speaker 2: trust him that he's going to work through this and
24:13
Speaker 2: we're going to come together in a minute and everything's
24:16
Speaker 2: going to be okay. That's me living into my value
24:20
Speaker 2: system that I really do believe that everybody, whatever you're
24:25
Speaker 2: thinking and feeling is just you becoming you through time.
24:28
Speaker 2: I shouldn't mess with that. And I can remember that
24:31
Speaker 2: in this moment. And then I went and played spoons
24:35
Speaker 2: with the card game with my kid, and later on
24:38
Speaker 2: we came back together and worked through that moment and
24:40
Speaker 2: he was able then to tell me what was going
24:42
Speaker 2: on in him right, And again I enter that conversation
24:47
Speaker 2: courage kindness so that I can add some regulation to
24:51
Speaker 2: my low brain, so I don't just act from it, right, right,
24:56
Speaker 2: So I use all these practices in my own life.
24:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, jeez, I'm just hearing an incredible amount and
25:05
Speaker 1: like an invitation to slow down self awareness. This whole
25:12
Speaker 1: process is just feels like an invitation to uh, you know,
25:21
Speaker 1: imagine or think about how we can have, for example,
25:24
Speaker 1: compassion for someone else to in turn have it for ourselves. Yes,
25:29
Speaker 1: it seems like so easy.
25:31
Speaker 2: It is actually way easier.
25:34
Speaker 1: But I can't have compassion for myself of course.
25:38
Speaker 2: And you know what's funny. Neurobiologically, they're actually the same network.
25:42
Speaker 2: It's just pointed a different direction. So don't worry about it.
25:46
Speaker 2: Just turn it on towards somebody else and then it
25:48
Speaker 2: pointing it towards you. You'll get it over time, a
25:52
Speaker 2: little bit by little bit.
25:54
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like, let's pull out a
25:59
Speaker 1: little bit here. I appreciate you going into detail about that. Yeah,
26:03
Speaker 1: look at you talked about in terns you're working with.
26:06
Speaker 1: When you look at the state of UH education for
26:10
Speaker 1: therapists right now, do you see that this neurobiology being
26:17
Speaker 1: covered presently now? In our in our in the culture
26:21
Speaker 1: of therapists and so forth, a tiny.
26:24
Speaker 2: Bit more, and it was when I went to school,
26:28
Speaker 2: but not by a lot.
26:31
Speaker 1: Why is it important?
26:34
Speaker 2: I think it's important in a few different ways. One is,
26:38
Speaker 2: I think sometimes our therapy skills are teaching us to
26:42
Speaker 2: work against natural energy and information flows in our brain,
26:46
Speaker 2: and I don't want us to do that.
26:49
Speaker 1: I want us to work with more about that, what
26:50
Speaker 1: do you mean by that?
26:51
Speaker 2: I want us to work with so Like, sometimes I
26:55
Speaker 2: might be taught thought stopping, for example, which is not
27:00
Speaker 2: a bad skill in several different circumstances. But if I'm
27:04
Speaker 2: really hot thoughts stopping, what I'm going to do is
27:08
Speaker 2: activate task positive networks in the brain, the frontal cortex
27:13
Speaker 2: in a more judgment assessment way than in a compassionate way.
27:19
Speaker 2: A lot of the time when I might use the skill,
27:22
Speaker 2: I might use it in a way that actually uptivates
27:26
Speaker 2: harshness towards me, like stop it already, you can feel
27:31
Speaker 2: that energy.
27:32
Speaker 3: Well, that will give you a wonky outcome, because I
27:40
Speaker 3: say wonky because it's nuanced, it's complicated.
27:43
Speaker 2: One is, it's probably actually going to work right there
27:46
Speaker 2: in the moment. That's probably true. A lot of times,
27:49
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent of the time, but a lot
27:51
Speaker 2: of times, you know what, you're going to get positive
27:52
Speaker 2: feedback that that thing you just did was a success.
27:56
Speaker 2: And I don't want to discount that, and I don't
27:59
Speaker 2: want to discount them. I woortance of having something like
28:01
Speaker 2: that in your toolbox sometimes and there's no intervention we're
28:08
Speaker 2: going to do that doesn't have both cost and benefit. Right,
28:11
Speaker 2: So we've talked about the benefit. Oh, it can be
28:13
Speaker 2: fast acting. Oh you can get feedback in the moment
28:15
Speaker 2: that that oh, big move you just did, it did
28:19
Speaker 2: create a stop. Good for you. Awesome, Great. Here's the
28:22
Speaker 2: only downside though, is you add excitatory neurochemicals to the
28:27
Speaker 2: brain when you're doing assessment in a judgy way, when
28:32
Speaker 2: you are harsh towards yourself. What you are doing is
28:35
Speaker 2: lighting your lower brain on fire. And I want people
28:38
Speaker 2: to know that so that if that's their choice, great,
28:42
Speaker 2: I trust you go forward and make your choice. And also,
28:47
Speaker 2: don't think it's cost free this kind of thing. And
28:51
Speaker 2: I think some of the nuances of how our interventions
28:55
Speaker 2: might be working with the brain is lost when we
28:59
Speaker 2: don't understand and the neurobiology at least a little bit.
29:03
Speaker 2: And I don't think we all need to become neuroscientists.
29:05
Speaker 2: I'm certainly not, And I think insights into this can
29:13
Speaker 2: help us all be really creative in some of the
29:18
Speaker 2: interventions we're even creating ourselves. If I hadn't looked at
29:23
Speaker 2: the mentalization neural network and understood it was listening to
29:26
Speaker 2: the belly and heart and speaking image. It's in a
29:30
Speaker 2: part of the brain just speaks image more, I couldn't
29:33
Speaker 2: have created the intervention I used to help people do
29:35
Speaker 2: a psychological boundary. So I think sometimes understanding these neurobiology
29:41
Speaker 2: pieces can help us creatively invent new interventions and test
29:48
Speaker 2: them out. And really, I do mean really test them out.
29:52
Speaker 2: I mean do an outcome study on your own work
29:54
Speaker 2: and see is it actually helpful to people? And if so,
30:00
Speaker 2: oh great, look at you. You learn to work with
30:03
Speaker 2: your own brain and help people work with their own
30:06
Speaker 2: brains really well. So one is around, like more interventions working.
30:10
Speaker 2: Do we really understand as well as we can because
30:13
Speaker 2: neurobiology is still really new. So you know, as soon
30:17
Speaker 2: as we learn something, we've been learned something that this
30:19
Speaker 2: proves the thing we thought we just understood. So let's
30:22
Speaker 2: not get away from ourselves. Let's keep incorrect humility around
30:26
Speaker 2: where we actually are. And I think these insights can
30:29
Speaker 2: help us create wonderful interventions. Another piece is I think
30:35
Speaker 2: it can help us as clinicians create a container for
30:40
Speaker 2: ourselves that holds us really well. Oh, of course it
30:45
Speaker 2: makes sense. This person is acting impulsively, their lower brain
30:50
Speaker 2: is fast. There's nothing I don't have to judge that,
30:52
Speaker 2: I don't have to think there's something wrong with them.
30:55
Speaker 2: I think we can create a really judgment the free
30:59
Speaker 2: of coreness container for folks. And then the other piece
31:04
Speaker 2: I think is that understanding a little bit of neurobiology
31:09
Speaker 2: can help people buy into therapy a little bit easier.
31:13
Speaker 2: It certainly helped me. I mean I went into this
31:17
Speaker 2: field thinking this is a bunch of woo woo bs, right,
31:23
Speaker 2: And the more I've gone into neurobiology, the more I
31:26
Speaker 2: understand all this woo woo bs. Interventions are the ones
31:28
Speaker 2: that work best, by the way, but I needed that
31:31
Speaker 2: education to know, and as a client that was really
31:34
Speaker 2: helpful for me, just like as a clinician is really
31:37
Speaker 2: helpful for me. That's a piece of it. And I
31:39
Speaker 2: also think psycho education around this stuff can start taking
31:43
Speaker 2: some of the shame out. So I think we've been
31:45
Speaker 2: taught that we're supposed to show up without the brains
31:50
Speaker 2: that we actually love. Oh that my heart. It hurts
31:56
Speaker 2: so much when I think about, like how much truly
32:00
Speaker 2: we've been taught to judge ourselves.
32:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm speaking with Jules Taylor sure her
32:10
Speaker 1: book Setting Boundaries that Stick. How near biology can help
32:14
Speaker 1: you rewire your brain to feel safe, connected and empowered. Yeah,
32:19
Speaker 1: as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, how
32:24
Speaker 1: we can let ourselves off the hook when we're where
32:28
Speaker 1: of certain ways our brain's working. What, oh okay, and
32:33
Speaker 1: that can really we can, we can we can feel
32:36
Speaker 1: absolved from uh, feeling like where the cause? You know? Yeah,
32:43
Speaker 1: just let us off the hook some.
32:45
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and in a nuanced way. Right, I can
32:49
Speaker 2: let go of the judgment and still do a thing
32:52
Speaker 2: that makes it better. Right, what if you could have both? Right?
32:55
Speaker 2: You don't. You don't have to have harshness to change.
32:58
Speaker 2: In fact, passion is if you lean into Kristin Neff's
33:02
Speaker 2: work at all. Y'all, Kristin Nef is a wonderful researcher
33:06
Speaker 2: and compassion research and what she would say is, oh, no,
33:11
Speaker 2: there's no way for any kind of long lasting change
33:13
Speaker 2: to habit without compassion.
33:17
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, Wow, all right, what's next for you? You said
33:24
Speaker 1: you're doing a lot of teaching and.
33:26
Speaker 2: Stuff, doing tons of teaching. So I just wrote this book.
33:29
Speaker 2: I'm letting people know about that. I run boundary workshops
33:33
Speaker 2: that are peeny tiny. I don't let more than eight
33:37
Speaker 2: people in so we can actually do depth work around
33:39
Speaker 2: all these boundary pieces. So I do that regularly. And
33:43
Speaker 2: then the big thing I'm doing right now is something
33:46
Speaker 2: called the Stare Method, which is not a model of therapy.
33:50
Speaker 2: I want to be really clear about that. The Stare
33:52
Speaker 2: method is an integrative synthesizing framework so that you can
33:57
Speaker 2: put all those amazing therapy tools you have into a
34:00
Speaker 2: neurobiologically sound methodology, and so it helps It's an integrative method,
34:06
Speaker 2: so it helps you organize your toolbox so that your
34:09
Speaker 2: skills work with the brain. Really well.
34:12
Speaker 1: Wow, very interesting And where can people learn more about that?
34:15
Speaker 3: Yeah?
34:15
Speaker 2: That you can learn all about everything from my website. Okay,
34:19
Speaker 2: Julienne Taylorshore dot com. Julianne is spelled with one in
34:24
Speaker 2: so look up Juliannetaylorshore dot com or Jewles Taylor Shore
34:28
Speaker 2: on Google. You'll still find me because everybody calls me Jewles.
34:31
Speaker 2: And that's all over my website too, And just check
34:36
Speaker 2: out my website. It's got all the therapist training, all
34:39
Speaker 2: the boundary workshops which are for everybody. Any adult over
34:42
Speaker 2: the age of twenty five is welcome. You could be
34:44
Speaker 2: a therapist, but it's open to lay folks as well.
34:48
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I have a book out, so if
34:51
Speaker 2: you want a low cost way to try on some
34:54
Speaker 2: of these ideas, that's a great way to do it.
34:56
Speaker 1: Awesome, and we'll have that link up here at the
34:59
Speaker 1: show notes paid at the Trauma the Divers podcast dot com. Jules,
35:02
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Intense, very intense. I mean, yeah,
35:09
Speaker 1: you are intense. I love it. Thanks guy, Thank you
35:13
Speaker 1: take the time.
35:15
Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me.
35:16
Speaker 1: All right, we'll be in touch. Take care, all right,