Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 384] Black Sabbath’s Dio Era: The Albums, Songs & Legacy with Chris Sutton

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[EP 384] Black Sabbath’s Dio Era: The Albums, Songs & Legacy with Chris Sutton · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Says, I mean, he's utterly triumphant, majestic on there. He
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: gives this astonishing performance. He absolutely realizes what a chance
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: he's got to carry on in the big time, and
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: he just takes it, absolutely takes it and runs off
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: with him. I can't think of anybody else they could
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: have worked with. It could have inspired them to produce
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: anything as good as this. We're totally bombed rock and roll.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, I leave you, you're reading Little Hands as
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: it's time to rock and roll. I totally booked.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Book on Rock and Eric Sanitch. This
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: is the podcast for those about to read and rock.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: If you'd like to support the podcast get episodes commercial free.
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  Speaker 2: You can do so by signing up for the backstage
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  Speaker 2: Pass from Patreon. It just five dollars a month. The
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  Speaker 2: link is in the show notes. Or he can do
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: what A booked on rock dot Com. All right, our guest,
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  Speaker 2: our returning guest Chris Sutton. He's back this time. He
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: has got a brand new book with all the insight
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: on Black Sabbath thedo Years. The book is called Black
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Sabbath the dal Years. Every album, every song part of
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  Speaker 2: Sonic Bond's on track series. Chris. Always great to see you.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: How you doing, man, I'm doing great. Eric. It's every
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: time I finish a book, the thing I look forward
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: to is chatting to you because we always seem to
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: really get to the real bones of what the book's about,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: don't we. And it's always such great fun to talk
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  Speaker 1: to you.
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  Speaker 2: Eric. Yes, I have to reserve, like this will be
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the first interview you do for each book. Yeah, We've
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: always had so much fun. I mean this is probably
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  Speaker 2: fifth sixth book. I think we've covered from here.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's seven seven.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: We did the Chic was the last one.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: You've done Alice Cooper twice yep Ic DC, we did
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  Speaker 1: who else in my Sparks we did?
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  Speaker 2: We did Sparks, Yes, which got great response. Those types
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  Speaker 2: of bands, those I love to do those types of
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  Speaker 2: books because sometimes here in the States, certain bands may
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: not have the following here that they do in other
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: parts of the world. And then you realize with the comets,
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  Speaker 2: you know, like we I just did an episode with
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  Speaker 2: Stephen Lamb of Sonic Bond, who did a book on focus,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: you know, and you get some responses that you realize
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: that there are fans out there. You know for bands
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: that are die hard, so obviously this is a band
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  Speaker 2: that everybody knows about if you're a fan of Rocket
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Roll and who doesn't know Ozzy Osbourne, which leads to
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  Speaker 2: the interesting story here is how could you replace somebody
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  Speaker 2: like Ozzy Osbourne? Well, Black Sabbath did and they did
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  Speaker 2: so very well. And there's a lot been said and
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  Speaker 2: written about Sabbath with Ozzi for obvious reasons, but it's
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  Speaker 2: great to see the do years get some of the spotlight.
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  Speaker 2: When did you discover Ronnie James Dio that era of
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  Speaker 2: Black Sabbath and how did you feel about it in
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  Speaker 2: terms of him being a replacement for Ozzie.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what he was like in the USA,
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  Speaker 1: maybe slightly different, but over in England. I've been into
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  Speaker 1: rock music for some time. I got into Black Sabbath
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  Speaker 1: around the time of Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or was seventy three,
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  Speaker 1: and then Rainbow popped up to Deep Purple and that's
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: where we first most of us knew about Ronnie James
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  Speaker 1: Dio was because he was Rainbow's vocalist and those first
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: three studio albums and live album with Rainbow were extremely
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  Speaker 1: well received in the UK and Europe. I'm not sure
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  Speaker 1: how much they went down in America, but I mean
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  Speaker 1: people really embraced Ronnie. James. Dio is a great rock
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  Speaker 1: and roll singer, so we knew his quality, and it
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  Speaker 1: was an enormous shock when he left Rainbow. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I couldn't understand that. I know what the reasons were
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  Speaker 1: that Blackmore wanted to do better in America, more commercial,
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  Speaker 1: the sort of the foreigner route. I guess you might
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  Speaker 1: say journey, you know, that kind of vibe. But Doo,
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  Speaker 1: to me and a lot of people, was as important
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  Speaker 1: in Rainbow as Blackmore. I really think that. And I
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  Speaker 1: think that becomes quite evident when you listen to Heaven
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  Speaker 1: and Hell. You can really see what Doo's input was
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  Speaker 1: in Rainbow because he brings it with him into the
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  Speaker 1: first album Heaven and Hell, and you get this colossal
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  Speaker 1: amount of Doo jammed in with Iomi and Butler and
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  Speaker 1: Ward and the other thing to bear in mind, I
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  Speaker 1: think is is that nineteen eighty year seventeen nine, eighty
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  Speaker 1: eighty one, there was a big sea change in classic
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  Speaker 1: rock bands, particularly where you clearly see them sitting down
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  Speaker 1: and going or hang on the decades changed, it's a
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  Speaker 1: new decade. So some of them start wearing suits to
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  Speaker 1: get different hairdooes, change the band members. You can see
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  Speaker 1: this all across the board in so many bands. You know,
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  Speaker 1: some like Zzy topgot stratospheric, Yes, change direction completely, Rush
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  Speaker 1: start wearing suits and so on. And with Sabbath, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 1: the big thing is the change of vocalists. Is there
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  Speaker 1: change that they make for that era, which is Ronnie
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  Speaker 1: James dio coming on board. So in Britain, I certainly,
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  Speaker 1: much as I loved Donzie and I couldn't understand why
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  Speaker 1: they didn't take time off, but bands just weren't allowed
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  Speaker 1: to take time off. Ronnie James like for me an
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  Speaker 1: incredible alternative to bring in for a different direction. Now,
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  Speaker 1: whether the band name should have stayed the same as
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  Speaker 1: a moot point, isn't it, Eric, You know a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people think it should have been a new band name,
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  Speaker 1: and I think Tony Iomi and Geezer Butler would certainly
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  Speaker 1: have agreed with that that it's not Sabbath as such.
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  Speaker 1: Sabbath was the four guys from Aston from Birmingham. But
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  Speaker 1: record company politics are going to dictate that that brand,
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  Speaker 1: Sabbath brand is worth preserving over any solo band name.
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  Speaker 2: And in the book you detail that burnout that was
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  Speaker 2: happening with Sabbath before Eysie left. Do you think the
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  Speaker 2: band would have survived if Deo hadn't entered the picture
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  Speaker 2: when he did. I.
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  Speaker 1: As far as I can tell, a lot of it's
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  Speaker 1: about money. That they owed money to the record company.
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  Speaker 1: The record company were putting money into making an album
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  Speaker 1: that wasn't happening. That's the amount of pressure that they
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  Speaker 1: are under, as well as the burnout of the band themselves.
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  Speaker 1: You put those two together. Nobody's turning around saying, here,
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  Speaker 1: have a six month holiday and we'll come back, you know,
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  Speaker 1: go off to health farms or whatever it is. You know,
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  Speaker 1: let's see where we're at. That option is just not there.
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  Speaker 1: That the worry is to make an album, and Ozzie
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  Speaker 1: seems to have been in the worst position apparently to
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  Speaker 1: actually make the album, whereas Dio is still hungry to
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  Speaker 1: maintain the success that he probably felt that just maybe
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  Speaker 1: come and gone. Perhaps, And of course he's quite an
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  Speaker 1: older person, which we didn't know at the time. He's
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  Speaker 1: quite a he've been singing since about nineteen fifty eight
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  Speaker 1: on records, you know something like that.
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  Speaker 2: That's amazing. How old was he at that time in
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  Speaker 2: seventy nine eighty.
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  Speaker 1: He was thirty something check it. I'm not sure, but
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  Speaker 1: he wasn't in his twenties. So he's not like a
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  Speaker 1: whipper snapper, if you like. He's somebody who's been there
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  Speaker 1: and been around. He was an older person.
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  Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, the comparison to the Van Heilen story where
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  Speaker 2: Sammy was late thirties when he joined Van Helen. Similar
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  Speaker 2: here he got a guy who's been around. One fascinating
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  Speaker 2: part of the story is how close Sabbath came to
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  Speaker 2: falling apart entirely by seventy nine. Was there a point
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  Speaker 2: where Tony Iomi seriously considered ending the band?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe so. I think Tony could see that
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  Speaker 1: Geezer was having problems, personal problems and was on the
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  Speaker 1: edge of leaving, which he did for a while. Billboard
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  Speaker 1: was struggling with his personal problems at the time. It's
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  Speaker 1: alleged that Tony had some issues going on as well
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  Speaker 1: at the time, So a solo album would have looked
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  Speaker 1: like maybe an easier route. And you've certainly energized by
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  Speaker 1: Ronnie James Dio, There's no doubt about that. I think
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  Speaker 1: at some point you would have he would have preferred
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  Speaker 1: to have made a solo album or an Iomi Dio album,
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  Speaker 1: which would have looked more on the cards, but the
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  Speaker 1: record company would have had none of that at all.
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  Speaker 1: And that happens later on as well with Seventh Star,
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  Speaker 1: the other eighties album that's you know, the one which
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  Speaker 1: features Tony Iomi's Black Sabbath featuring Tony Iami. So there
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  Speaker 1: you can see the record company politics saying, yeah, we
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  Speaker 1: hear what you're saying, Tony, but it's a Black Sabbath
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  Speaker 1: album again.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the branding, the name, the name is still of value.
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  Speaker 2: You mentioned that Dio initially thought that this was just
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  Speaker 2: maybe a collaboration rather than actually joining the band. How
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  Speaker 2: quickly did it become obvious that this was something bigger.
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  Speaker 1: I think it became obvious once Doo went around and
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  Speaker 1: started jamming with Bill and Geezer and Tony at first,
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  Speaker 1: And once they started that going down that route, it
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  Speaker 1: became apparent they'd got something really quite special. They'd gone
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  Speaker 1: through many many months of not coming up with anything.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit harsh. I think that
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  Speaker 1: Asie Osborne came up with melodies, local melodies and some lines.
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  Speaker 1: But I've always had the impression of the line share
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  Speaker 1: of the musical side of Black Sabbath had come from Iomi,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and Geezer Butler, I'd never got the impression
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  Speaker 1: that Ossie was really heavily involved in that aspect of
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  Speaker 1: the songwriting. So you do read them saying that Ozzie
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  Speaker 1: wasn't coming up with anything, but I always think that's
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  Speaker 1: a little bit harsh on him, to be frank Eric,
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  Speaker 1: because we know Geezer wrote a lot of the lyrics
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  Speaker 1: as well.
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  Speaker 2: And I think the process was the same too with
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  Speaker 2: Asie's solo band. The band came in with the music,
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  Speaker 2: but as He had that great ability to come up
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  Speaker 2: with the melody over that music. So I can't sell
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  Speaker 2: Assie short on that. But yeah, it really was that
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  Speaker 2: collaborative effort where they all come together and they think
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  Speaker 2: it with this situation with Ronnie, how did the songwriting
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  Speaker 2: process change?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think it. For start off, Ronnie wanted to
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  Speaker 1: write all the lyrics, so all the lyrics about Ronnie
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  Speaker 1: James and Kizer doesn't write any lyrics at all, and
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  Speaker 1: Ronnie goes straight back down the source of the route
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  Speaker 1: that Richie Blackmore had got fed up with him doing
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: in Rainbow, you know, the kind of the wizards and
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: demons and rainbows and roots, very magical mist call lyrics.
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  Speaker 1: So he brings all that with him to the party.
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  Speaker 1: Although in fairness, on the Longlive Rock and Roll album,
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  Speaker 1: the last one he did with Rainbow, he does mix
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  Speaker 1: it up on that a bit, the several songs that
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  Speaker 1: don't go down that route. And Ronnie could also come
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  Speaker 1: up with melodies almost instantly, so you hear him singing
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  Speaker 1: across the music as well. He'll sing his own melodies
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  Speaker 1: over the tunes. And obviously quite famously the people say
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: about him singing iron Man, you know, he sings to
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  Speaker 1: the riff all the way through the song. You know,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: he doesn't always do that. Again, I think that's very unfair.
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  Speaker 1: I can think of several instances whereas he does something
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  Speaker 1: quite different to whatever tone he's playing on the guitar,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: you know, But that's that was what was leveled at him,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: was that Neon Knights is a good example. Will probably
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: go through some of the songs, but there you can
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  Speaker 1: hear Deo singing across what's going on music then it
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  Speaker 1: is quite a difference.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, absolutely. I mean you can hear in the groove,
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  Speaker 2: the overall groove of these songs. It's different from The
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  Speaker 2: Sabbath as he is. In fact, Tony has said that
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  Speaker 2: Ronnie encouraged him to play more solos and stretch out
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  Speaker 2: more melodically. I think you talk about that in the book.
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  Speaker 2: Did that unlock another side of Tony as a guitarist?
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  Speaker 1: It certainly seems quite liberated, if you like. But his
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: guitar sounds quite different on a lot of I don't
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  Speaker 1: think he sounds as I only like as we knew.
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  Speaker 1: There are some songs where you hear it come through
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  Speaker 1: quite clearly. On the riff of Heaven and How you
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: sort of think, oh, yeah, that's that's old school Sabbath
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: coming in there. And Children of the Sea you can
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: hear it on the chorus of that as well, that
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: kind of But a lot of the songs now on
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Night's the first track, he doesn't sound much like Black
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Sabbath to me at all. Quite frankly, I like it,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: I love it, but I think it's very different direction refreshing.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: But is it Black Sabbath? That was some of the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: questions now, at the time when it came out, I
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: think we all embraced it. I was much younger then,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: so they just tell you, don't they, this is the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: new Black Sabbath, we have a new singer, this is
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the band, Here is the album, and he just sounded great.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: What was going on behind the scenes, who'd done what,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: who'd said? What would have happened? Meant nothing because we
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: didn't know it.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Bill Ward. Now, some fans felt that his jazzy improvisational
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: style became more restrained during this era. Do you think
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the music demanded a more disciplined approach.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so, because there's been some suggestions on
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the internet, of course, that it's not even Bill playing
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: on the album. I'm sure it is Bill, but I
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: don't think he remembers much of it. In some interviews
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: he says he doesn't remember lot, and then you'll say,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Lonely is the word is the best track on the album,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: and you just remember that one. So he remembers something.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: But certainly there's less of those little improvisations and in
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the music than we've had before. So I'd say this
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: is a more solid kind of album, if that's fair
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: to say. Even when they go down there, the sort
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: of the Ballady route and the more laid back route
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: with things like lonely is the word. It still doesn't
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: sound so like a planet caravan, for example, that we
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: had in the past on the Paranoid album. There's nothing
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: as diverse as that. It is an album for the eighties,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Isn't It's It's and you think where we come from.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Never Say Die is much as I try. I think
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: that's a very flawed album, the last one with OSSI,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: and the production's terrible on't It and then on Technical Ecstasy,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and when they did the super deluxe edition of that,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: the outtakes and the working versions whatever of the song
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I think are miles better than the ones that were
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: actually released. I think the sound more authentically like Black Sabbath.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: There's less layering and messing going on with it, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: with this because Dio suggests bringing in an outside producer,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the guy who he'd work with in Rainbow, Martin Birch,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: and that I think clearly makes a difference. So he's
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: probably curbing some of those excesses that are crept in
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: on the two Black Sabbath albums before this.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Heaven Hell, that's the album from Rite eighty. That's the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: first with Ronnie and you describe it as a revitalized,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: modernized Black Sabbath. What makes this album still sound so
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: fresh today? It really does. You can listen to it.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't sound needed.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: No, it's odd, isn't it. I mean you've got to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: give credit, I guess to Martin Burg. It's I mean
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: the band. The songs are mostly terrific. There's one or two,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and interestingly, the one or two I think are a
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: little bit you know, may not filler, but not quite
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: as great as the two that Iowei and Butler both
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: picked out as being the ones that are probably a
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: little bit lesser perhaps on the album. The running order
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: is something I'm quite not sure about as well. But
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: there's some interesting Sabbath tropes on it. I love the
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: end of Heaven and Hell where Tony pulls out these
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: little acoustic passage. Just wish that was a bit louder.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: That's really really nice. And there are some class songs
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: on there aren't there? And I think it's about DYEA
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of this album for me. You've got where
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: the guy was at. I think he was running out
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of cash, out of Rainbow has much chance, my time
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in the big side time Sorry gone. And then he
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: comes back with this and they do better in America
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: with this than Rainbow did with their Down to Earth album,
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: which is the one he should have been on, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: that must have given him some satisfaction privately, I would imagine.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Let's talk more about Neon Knights explodes out of the
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: speakers with so much energy. You're right that the album
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: opener captured the band's renewed confidence and excitement. It immediately
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: announced the fans this is the new Black Sabbath. Like
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: you say, it doesn't sound like the Black Sabbath of old,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: yet it stood up over the years became one of
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: the defining Dio era Sabbath songs. Why do you think
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: that is? Why does it still connect so strongly with
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: the fans today?
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Well, I can remember the first time I heard it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I remember it was in the living room where I
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: lived in Norfield, Birmingham, and I brought it back and
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: put the needle down, and you're thinking like, wa, wow,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: you know, and this is they're just saying so healthy
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: lean mean up for it, and Dio says, I mean,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: he's utterly triumphant, majestic, on there, he gives this astonishing performance.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: He absolutely realizes what a chance he's got to carry
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: on in the big time and develop, and he just
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: takes it, absolutely takes it and runs off with him.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I can't think of anybody else they could have worked
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: with it could have inspired them to produce anything as
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: good as this. I really really can't. Because they do
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: try again, don't they. Through the eighties, things happen, as
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: we know. And originally this book was going to be
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: about Sabbath in the eighties, but that just as I
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: started to look at the possibilities and what we were
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: going to cover, it just seemed too disjointed, which I
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: think they were through the eighties. But when they got Dio,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: who is, you know, probably the best alternative Tony ever
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: had to Ozsie. I would guess he must think that
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: because every time he has a chance to work with
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Ossie or he takes it. That's the first option, you know,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: That's what goes on. What happens and Neon Knights is explosive.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: The last track written for the album because they wanted
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: something fast and up tempo to open it, and the
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: previous two albums that opened We would Never Say Die
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: we never say die. Technical Ecstasy had opened up with
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Backstreet Kid, you know, and these were the up tempo,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: charging out the traps kind of songs, and he wanted
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: another one just like that. The difference is Martin Birch
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: produces this, so it sounds much better and it is
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: a terrific opener. It really is.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yea and Lady Evils on This album has a very
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: strong Rainbow influence lyrically stylistically. Do you hear it as
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: almost as a bridge between Rainbow and Black Sabbath?
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I absolutely do. I mean, I mean, Iomi crunches enough
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: in his Sabbath style and he puts in these lovely
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: little bit of wa wai notes that come in. But yes,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: this is a very very runny James Dio song. I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: think could have sat on the Long Live rock and
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Roll album for example, And this is it. This is
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: what made me wonder about when you look at the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: history of Rainbows, who looked at that time Thissus, his
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Black MOR's band, these are the people who works with.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: But you think, well, looking at this the evidence on
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: this album, Ronnie must have had an enormous influence on
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: those albums. And again it's a really good song, Lady Evil.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: It's I don't think it's one of the best, but
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: it is a good song.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And the story behind Die Young and Craig Grueber's claimed
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: contribution is fascinating. You get into this in the book.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Grubber was in Rainbow if I got this. Craig, he
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: was in Rainbow with Ronnie but then was also in
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: the early recording sessions on Heaven and Hell until Geezer
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Butler joined.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Butler had been there and had then gone to deal
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: with these personal issues in the UK. And it didn't look,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I suppose at one point as though he might come back.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: And obviously you wait for Geezer Butler, don't you. And
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: maybe they thought that waiting for Gezer was somewhat akin
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to waiting for Ozzie. We'd been waiting for Ozzie and
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: now we'd be waiting for Gezer. So in the meantime,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: in any case, they decided to bring in Craig Gruber,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: who had been on the first Rainbow album with Ronnie
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: and had been in Elf, which was the band that
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Ronnie was in before Rainbow, so they knew each other.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: And Gruber had been sacked from Rainbow as Richie blackmore
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: slowly replaces everybody in the band except for Ronnie James
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: dere So Gruber had been disappointed before, but probably I
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: would guess the opportunity, the money, all those things, and
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: he came back, and Gruber has done well. He did
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: several interviews over the years where he claimed and in
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: actual fact, the final bass parts on the album are
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: actually his on the whole album, on the whole album,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: and not Gezer Butlers.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, And how much influence did he have on this
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: one song day Young?
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: He claimed that Tony I Am he had said, you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: if you've got anything, we're looking for an up tempo
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: kind of track, and he had got stuff because the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: guy was a musician and wrote stuff. And he claimed
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: that fundamentally all of Die Young, except for the middle eight,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: was his tune. I know this has happened. I can
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: think of several cases where this has definitely happened in
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: other bands. And it's quite well known where somebody has
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: written and it's just been said, well, okay, here's a
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: bit of money. Just keep quiet about it, because he
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't look right on the album sleeves if somebody else
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: is credited, and maybe it's one of those who will
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: probably never really know. And I don't know enough about
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Gruber's writing to say that that's a great Gruber tune.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: It sounds to me actually looked more like IOMI tune
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: in fairness, but he did make these claims, And then
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: you have the claim that Geezer Butler comes back and
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: doesn't listen to the album and just listens and then
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: puts the bass parts on himself without listening to what
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Gruber had actually played. The only probable exception I think
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: is Heaven and How, which is isn't one of Gruber's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: parts at all. It's one I think that he'd actually
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: picked up himself, Geezer Butler. I think he'd actually got
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it from Jeff Nichols, who had been brought over to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: play keyboards but had been a bass player in a
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: band called Courts in Birmingham. And the base part for
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Heaven and Hell that actually come from an old court song.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I think that's the only one that Gizer pretty much
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: played as was all.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Right, let's move on to eighty one's Mob Rules, which
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I think I would give it a slight edge over
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: the first album. For me, it sounds darker, heavier. Was
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: that intentional from the band's perspective, it's very interesting.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: There's been some revisionism them over the years. I think
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: because at the time I'd agree with you. I thought
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: it was actually at the very least as good as
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Heaven and Hell and maybe a consolid I've read some
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: people then started saying it's not as good as Heaven
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and Hell or it's more of the same. But I
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: think there's some really really strong songs, and it's certainly
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: as strong as there is on Heaven and Hell, and
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: there's a kind of a similarity between the two, I think, Eric,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean, you can kind of match them.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: See it opens We've turned up the Night, which is
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: pretty much a rewrite of Neon Nights, I suppose you
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: would say, in many ways, and maybe Sign of the
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Southern Cross, I can kind of match that with maybe
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Heaven and Hell or Children of the Sea, perhaps on
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: on the Heaven and Hell album. I think it's a
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: really excellent album, Yeah, I do.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I think the title track is a classic. It's my
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: favorite saddest song from the Deal era. Ominous threatening sound
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: to that riff, Ronnie, what is he saying lyrically here
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: with this song?
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting one. If you listen to Fools
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: The Mob Rules, it's about that kind of mod mentality
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I think, where people just can I can follow other
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: people's opinions, just think for yourself and don't follow what
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: everybody else is saying. And that's abstoually quite different to
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: what the cover painting is, which is I like the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: cover painting. I think perhaps it's not necessarily an album
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: cover for me, although I do think it's a great painting.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: You are a right that The Mob Rules is one
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: of the very best things that's come out under the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: name Black Sabbath without a doubt.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Technically not a title track, right, the Rules album. Yeah,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: but is it political, as you say, is he making
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: a political statement here? Is he making a society statement?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: It's making all those statements. I think it's a whatever
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: you want it to say kind of think. But it's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: generally about going your own way and not following and
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: being independent, keeping your own views. But you know, I
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: mean four, you know there's some songs you've heard so
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: many many times and you kind of switch off a bit,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: but I can't hear that song without that rift just
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: hitting me. Oh my god.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it gets into your blood.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: The big one for me on there, and I kind
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of felt like this was happening. It's probably the Sign
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: of the Southern Cross, which is it's that perfect blend
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: of Ronnie's Rainbonus and and sort of old school Black Sabbath.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Really and you find yourself waiting for Tony to hit
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: the rift Don't You Come In, which he worked so brilliantly,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: absolutely extraordinary, It really really is, and it's one of
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: their very best songs, Sign of the Southern Cross. I
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: think from this era, I would pick their best song
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: has probably been Heaven and Hell because I think it's
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: a pretty fair summary of the strength of the whole band.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: It's an amazingly great riff on that Heaven and l album.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: That's my favorite on there. On this album, I always
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: say my favorite song is Sign of the Southern Cross
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: for the same reasons, and then I put on the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Mob Rules and I'm not sure anymore.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
• 25:12
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• 25:14
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• 25:17
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• 25:20
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• 25:23
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• 25:25
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• 25:33
  Speaker 2: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to the show. An album that's become one of the
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: most debated albums in Sabbath history, nineteen eighty three's Live Evil,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and a lot of the debate is surrounding well, there's
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of tension surrounding the mix. So after researching it,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: what's your perspective on what really happened?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Perspectively, it's a six to one and a half a
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: dozen and the other and a lot of old nonsense.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Quite frankly, what happened? What's well here?
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: The story is is that well Ronnie James deal, I
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: think he's generally very believable about most of what he says.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: He's saying that they had times to come in to
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: sit down and do the mix, so they'd turn up
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: him and Vinnie and Geezer and Tony wouldn't be there
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: and would come in later, so they would start work
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: with the engineer and doing the mix and sorting stuff
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: out and whatever and what have you, and then Tony
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and Geezer would come in later and work on it,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: and then their work would be changed the following morning
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: by by Ronnie, who says he just wouldn't do that,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: And actually I don't think he did. I think there's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of personal stuff going on, and in any case,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: it's a pretty dreadful mix. Anyway, it wasn't the greatest
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: mix at all, and it's now been thanks to Wind
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: who came out with this colossally incredible mix. You know
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you say times I nearly fell off my chair. Well,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I got to review the remix of Live Evil, and
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I felt sure that these were completely different shows or something.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: And Win Davis is one of the first I talked
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: to for this book, and I said, people are saying
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: that you're not using the same sources and someone that
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: were on Live Evil, he doesn't sound the same, and
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: he says, I absolutely am using the same. I can
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: guarantee it. I'm sitting looking at the file now. I
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: did not use any different versions or anything.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: That tells you what a difference a mix can make.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Have you heard the two mixes I have not? Oh? Oh, Eric,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: if you do one thing when you go away from this,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: get Wyn Davis's remixes a live evil and you will
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: be astounded. They are, literally, I would say that the
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: best remixes I've ever heard, and I've heard so many.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: It's like he's varnished it, buffed it up and cleaned
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: it and it's just become this incredible recording.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Was it taken from two shows Seattle and Dallas?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Two or three shows? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got the
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: shows listed in the book. And then there were overdubs. Now,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: whether he had all the overdubs as well to play with,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but he used all the original sources
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and there were some guitar overdubs and a bit of bass,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: and as there always is on live albums. Whatever anyone says,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: it actually came from four shows Fresno, Seattle, Dallas, and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: San Antonio. I mean some of the things he had
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: to do. He was using pro tools and swinging back
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: between the old and the new mixes to make sure
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: that he got things synced up and in the right places.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: He said he took a lot of time, an awful
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: lot of time and a lot of feedback to actually
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: get it right. He says he had tried using different
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: versions originally. That was the obvious way to go is
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: to not bother trying to remix lively. Well, just do
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: a remaster of it and then put out another version
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: if you like, by using completely different recordings. And and
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: they could have easily done that because the four venues
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: that I mentioned just earlier, they've got the recordings from
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: every song from those shows, so he could have just
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: picked different versions.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was like a handful of shows,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: not two shows. It was like.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And he could have just picked different songs from those
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: shows who had an alternative version of Live Evil, but
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: they didn't. I Finally, that's what the band wanted, was
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: to actually improve it, and it is absolutely phenomenal.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that, Tony. I only thought about getting
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: David Coverdille to take Ronnie's spot in the band after
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Ronnie left. That's in the book. Well what led to
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Ronnie's exit from the band in eighty two and what
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: led him back to the band ten years later.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: They've been a huge fallout over the mixing of Live Evil.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And that was really the Okay, that was the I think.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: It was the final straw. Geezer refers to Ronnie being
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: more assertive and trying to take control, demonstrative, and he
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: certainly is like that. I met him once for a
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: while and everybody who's met him will tell you what
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: a sweet, lovely person is who will take the time
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to talk to you, and he did, which was particularly
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: nice because I wasn't even there to meet him in
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the first place. I was literally waiting to meet UFO,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: another band, and Ronnie James Dio came out of the lift.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: When was this This was on the Mob Rules Tour,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: so about in nineteen eighty one two something like that,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and I'd gone to meet UFO and I was sitting
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: there waiting, and then out of the lift and the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: hotel foyer came around with James Dio and Geezer Butler
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: because they'd been playing at Stafford Bingley Hall on the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Mob Rules Tour the previous night. And it's quite funny
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: because they were surprised to see me. They thought I
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: must have been a fan of somehow worked out where
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: they were after the Stafford Show and was waiting, and
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: both of them were in these enormous fur coats that
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: went almost down to their ankles because it was quite cold,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: you know, and Dio hated the cold apparently in Britain.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: But he was very very sweet, both of them weren't.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: He just took time to talk about and they seem
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: very positive about the future the band had got then.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: So I think Dias a sort of person who at
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that point he would have been easy perhaps to fall
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: out with, because he did like he had his own opinions,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: strong opinions maybe, and I suspect and Iomi makes reference
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: to this in his book that he's he doesn't like
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: those sort of scenes and fights and arguments. Really, that's
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: not in his nature.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: The Book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
• 31:39
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• 31:41
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• 31:45
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• 31:52
  Speaker 2: dot com the Bonness podcasting network. It is what you
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: want to be listen with confidence. By the time The
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Humanizer came out in ninety two with Ronnie on there
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: metal had changed dramatically. What impresses you most about that
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: album today?
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I think that it's a strong album.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I particularly like about it that it kind of for
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: me if you wanted to know what Black Sabbath back
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: in the Osborne era the earlier could sound like with
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Ronnie James Doo, I think The Humanizer has some of
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: that going for it. Certainly. Iomei's riffs are crunching a
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: more sledgehammer style than they were on the Moberles in
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Heaven and l album. It very definitely does sound like
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Black Sabbath to me. But again, in the recording of
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the album it had been a tortuous roots where as
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: who was actually going to sing on it in the
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: first place. It hadn't originally been intended to be Ronnie
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: that was going to be involved. I think I think
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: they'd wanted other people. They'd had a flirtation with Ian Gillen,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: hadn't they. You probably remember that, Yeah, So, yeah, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Tony Martin at one point came in when they'd had
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: another fall out with Deo on the making of the
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Humorser album, and I need'd come back in for a
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: bit and then running come back again, so it's all
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: quite confusing.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Really what and then Deo was a again? What happened then?
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Same type of thing for different times?
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, just to Humanized. I think it got
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: again one of their best songs for me on it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: You know, if you're making like a compilation, if you
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: ever done this of like your car or whatever, so
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: you look and think about what would be the best
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: songs you might pick. I think I under Humanizer is
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: one of my very favorite songs with Ronnie James.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: It wasn't one of the singles. TV Crimes and Mastery
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: of Insanity were the singles.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: That's right. My favorite is I. I think that's an
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: incredibly strong song that they came out with, and they
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: always kind of played it live, so they must have agreed,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I guess. But again, the fallout comes because of this
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: thing of Ozzie having to retire and wanting to finish
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: off by having a reunion with the guys from Black
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Sabbath that these last shows, where was it costing me?
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: So wasn't it? And I think that they wanted to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: have this reunion.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, So that led to them saying to Ronnie, look,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: we've got to do this well.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: The idea was was that Black Sabbath would support OZSI
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: on his last two shows, and that Ronnie would come
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: in and do the set with the guys, and then
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: he would effectively go off assiou do a set and
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: then would come on for the encorse with Geezer, Tony
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: and Bill and Ronnie, And you know, I've got to
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: have some sympathy with him on this sort of said well, no,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not going and supporting the guy that I replaced
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: in the band, so you can forget it sure, And
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's fair enough. I really I don't think
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: there's any of us watching this podcast who would have
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: done it differently, because you can see the writing on
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the wall. I mean, you can clear his day, see
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: what the possibilities are going on there, can't you.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Well, what was the relationship with Ozzie and Ronnie over
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: the years. What did they say about each other in
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the press, How much did they know each other personally?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I've read different things. I've read that they got on okay,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: that they were kind of respectful of each other. There
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: were certainly incidences where they were less than respectful of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: each ither. Mean, it has to be said that certainly
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: comes from. I mean, you've got Ronnie Doo saying calling
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Assie a clown. I don't want to support that clown,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: but he was obviously an angry guy at that point,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: so you can understand that. And then you've got Doo
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: having a dragon on stage and a dwarf figure I
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: think was nicknamed Ronnie at one point in his show.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: So but you know, at the end of the day,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: I think it's just just as what it is, isn't it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it just didn't seem as ugly as the David
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Lee versus Sammy thing. There were some jabs taken, but.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it's an odd one, isn't it. You're right,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, with wrath and we haven't I.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Mean, don't think about all the articles you read about
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Day versus Samy, you don't. You don't see that a
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: lot Asi versus Ronnie every now and then. Maybe, but
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think they facilitated that as much as David
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Sammy did with the shots they would take out each other.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right when you put it like that, and
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: it's almost hard to understand, isn't it. It is? I mean,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I see Van Halen with Sammy is quite a different
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: entity to what they are with Wrath, I really do.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And I think because they're different entities, I can't see
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: why they get so upset and you've got deep purple
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: with their changing singers and so on and so forth.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as you returned to Sabbath in ninety seven, that
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: reunion lasted through two thousand and six until Ronnie returns again.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: They renamed the band Heaven and Hell this time. The
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: name change. Legal reasons for.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: That undoubtedly, So I think I think there's probably two things.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I think one is they probably couldn't go out as
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Black Sabbath because I believe the name was at this
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: point was owned by I was the osborn and Tony Iomi.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I think that the Osborns had got part of the
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: legality of the name, and when they had helped out
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Tony with an incident earlier on, so I believe they
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: could have vetoed it. And in any case, I think
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: it was it was the right thing to do. I mean,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I think in honesty the projects all along shouldn't have
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: been called Black Sabbath. And I think Ronnie had never
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: been quite happy about doing the ear as songs, even
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: though he'd done War Pigs. When he was back in
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the Elf days he covered Warpigs, So we did love
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: early Black Sabbath, but I never personally thought he sounded
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: too comfortable an Iron Man or even Black Sabbath, because
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: for me, I think he put a bit he goes
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: overly dramatic on both those songs. It always makes me
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: smile a bit, you know, as he used to get
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: this kind of quite almost a sinister normality to the
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: way he does Black Stuffath. He sounds like a guy
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: who has encountered something quite evil and he's quite still
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: shocked by it. And I think Dio's version goes a
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: little bit towards pantomime with a small p really the
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: way that he does it, And I understand he's trying
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: to put the drama into it, but I don't think
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: that that drama necessarily was needed or indeed helped. So
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I think he was certainly quite glad that now they
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: got all this material, we won two three albums and
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: so on behind them, and a couple of songs on
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: a new compilation, they could go out as Heaven and
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: help different name put the names underneath so everyone knows
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: who's actually involved. For those who haven't figured out who
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: they are and do an entire set of their own material,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: and I think that was the right way to do it.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was a great response to it.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a great set of songs, isn't it. And
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: we've just been talking about some of their songs. It's
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: it's it's just a fantastic rock metal set list from
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: four absolute stars of the genre. So I mean, yeah,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: they couldn't really go wrong.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: At all, which leads to the live album, which was
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: a smart move, the live from Radio City Music Hall
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: album oh seven, and then they decide to record a
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: studio album two thousand and nine is the Devil you know,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: it's under the Heaven and Hell name, So talk about that.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on this album, Debuty number eight?
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: It did. I think it's got some very very strong
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: songs on it. It's got again, it's got one of
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: the very very best songs on it, the Bible Black
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: is you can put that up there of anything. It's
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: a great way for Ronnie to go out and unfortunately
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: this is his last studio recordings really with Black Sabbath
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: of Heaven and Hell, we should say, and I think
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: it's a really good final album. It's as good, I
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: think as it could possibly be.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what a what a premise to a song the
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Black Bible. It's a dark, twisted version of the Holy Bible.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just it's just come out and
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: has been reissued with the live albums from this era
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: as well as a new re release and I haven't
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: got that yet, but I'll just be hoping that the
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: remaster is worth getting it for and so on and
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: so forth. But again, yeah, it's just a fine tribute.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: I know that they wanted to do another album together.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, where could they have gone?
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Sadly Ronnie dies in twenty ten. You know, maybe this
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: was the time where they were finally like the future
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: was free and clear, you know, as he was doing
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: his thing and that was it. But then again, you know,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: you got the demand for Sabbath with Azie, so I
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: think that would have gotten in the way. You could say, again,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: but they you said they did plan on another album, Well.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: They were, I mean, I mean in the ending, whichever
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: way you look at it, on both routes that effectively,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Tony and Geezer have got working with Ronnie, working with Ozzi,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: both of them sadly end up because of the singer's
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: passing away. It's health in the end. And this is
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: where we are at now. I mean a lot of
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: the people watching this and the what not. Every week
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at the rock places, I look online and
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: another one of my kind of treehouse gang as I
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: call them, of stars and musicians has passed away. That's
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: how it is. If they had done another album with Ronnie,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: there wouldn't have been any surprises. I don't think. I
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: don't think they would have bout that anymore. You would
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: have got more of the same and fair play to them.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Fair play to them, I guess it would have been
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: a pretty big deal though. If they did put on
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: a show or maybe tour with both errors, that would have.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Been God you think, can you imagine?
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Find the bookdown Rock website at bookdown rock dot com.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: There you can find all the back episodes of the show,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: episode in video and audio, links to all of the
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: platforms where you can listen to the podcast, plus all
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: and x. Also check out the book down Rock blog.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the book down Rock online store, pick up some book
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: down Rock merch. It's all at booked on rock dot com.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: The history of Black Sabbath. When that is written, what
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: do you think the ultimate legacy of the do era
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: really is?
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Well, he certainly saved the band as a name as
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Black Sabbath, whether you think they should have carried on
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: as Black Sabbath or not. They had that brief flirtation
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: with Dave Walker when Izzie had first walked away, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: that wasn't anything terrific from what we saw from the
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: one performance. I think he gave them a really really
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: great second bite at the cherry. Didn't he like a
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: second wind? It's a strong era. I do know people
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: who prefer the years we've running to the years we've seen.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: That's interesting.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: He preferred that they find that that's more to their taste,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: and I think this is I think running. I mean,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: look at the guy. I mean, he'd recorded three of
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: the biggest albums in rock and metal ad and he
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: done Rainbow Rising, which is one of the greatest Holy Diver.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I guess you know in heaven and Hell he's got
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: those three three different bands that given acts. There's not
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: many people can say that. And Tony Iomi, I mean,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: what a riff machine, what a monster. There are so
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: many colossal riffs and throughout this work and solos that
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: he done with Running and Geezer Butler. Absolute legends, all
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: of them, absolute legends.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: And this book captures it all. Black Sabbath, the Deal years,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: every album, every song out now find it wherever your
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: books are sold. I know in the UK always best
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: to go to BURNINGSHD dot com. Yeah, you could go
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: to Amazon if you'd like to get a copy. In
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the States, look for a Juniorest bookstore. Booked on rock
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: dot com. You can always find your nearest in your
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: penny bookstore now, Chris cof. People can find you online
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: or you got to bring your website.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. It's words on music.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: That's one word.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Dot online words our music that online, which I've I've
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: been to it, and I want to thank you because
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: you have posted I think all of our interviews there.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: I thought I had. Then I found some bits and
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: edits and video clips that you'd put and I've missed. Ah.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've got to keep up.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be linking to this. It's been an interest.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: I've got tons and tons of material and ideas of
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: things to put on, going back to when I started
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: back in my ear going to the Birmingham ode in
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: in Birmingham, So you'll be getting a lot of detail.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: The one thing I will say is I'm not doing
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: short stuff on there, so either read it in bits
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: or don't read it, because there won't be anything like
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: short and quick.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I don't do that.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: And what the other thing I intend to do is
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of the interviews that I've done for these books,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: you kind of have to use clips here and clips
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: there and so on, so you'll start to see them
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: come up as they were in a sequence. So already
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: on there. It's a very interesting interview. I think we
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Mike Butcher, who co produced and engineered Black Subbath Sabotage
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: album that's already on there, and he's very interesting talking
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: about how they recorded Sabotage and what happened. That's the
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: whole piece. So you haven't got a way through my
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: book on Black Sabbath and the seventies to find the
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Butcher bits. They'll be there.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here we go and you got your book right
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: there on the front page.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Can I say thanks by the Waiting books, I
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: mean thanks to your show. I get emails messages from
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Americans mostly, it has to be said. The Sparks book
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: was colossal to me if I got from that, and
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: it's really great to I love hearing from people. So
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: if anybody wi to get in touch, ask any questions
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: or anything, I'll reply to everybody.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much, Chris. Even if I can help
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: sell one more copy of a book than I've done
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: my joke.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, thanks. This is always the greatest thrill to
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: come on and talk to you.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Oh you are I've I have folks that I call
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: a friend of the podcast, and you've been on many
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: times and I always love having you. Now we have
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: great discussions, so I'm looking forward to to what's next.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, man. I just you mentioned UFO.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Has there been a Sonic Bond book on UFO?
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody else did it, which is great. I've met
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of musicians over the years.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I'm working on Colkington that did the UFO book.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was. I mean because of you,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: any effect and all this and the linked sparks in
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: the eighties is sort of happening.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: In the core.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I'm working on that. I'm working on the entire book
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: and Alice Cooper's Billion Dollar Babies.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, oh man, that's awesome.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: And I've got material for that that nobody's ever seen
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: or heard before, which has blown me away from some
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: very generous people. And I'm doing another history book, which
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: is outside. I've wrote quite a few history books. I've
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: got another one of those on the way as well.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Cool. You look forward to Alice Cooper's book in the
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: fall very much.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Do you know? One of the problems. I think you
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: put this on. But one of the problems is knowing
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: when to stop, because you put out requests for interviews,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: and as you'll know, some people don't reply. It's gone
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: to their spam. They've forgotten it. It was the wrong day,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: something happened, and then they'll come back months later, or
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: maybe they weren't. You have to send another reminder and another,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: so you keep chipping away, but you always think, shall
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I stop now, or shall I hang on and try
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: again for that one or personal two people maybe order
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: it that I really would like to get their input,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: and that that kind of is a problem. I had one.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: But I love to talk to you though, because you've
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: talked with all the guys, I mean, most of the
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: members that he's worked with that it's done away.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that. There's there's people. I mean, for example,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: the one I'm trying to get for Billion Dollar Babies
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: is Donovan. Okay, and he sings. He sings the lead
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: vocals on Billion Dollar Babies with Alice Donovan, the folksinger.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: He's the other vocalist. And I got to reply from
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Donovan to say he would talk to me, and which
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: was beyond exciting. But now he's for whatever reasons, and
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: there could be a lot of reasons, he sort of
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: goes gone quiet. And that's okay. I understand that, but
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: you're still thinking, well, I don't want to finish this
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: book without him, and you.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Never know why. Maybe they have second thoughts, maybe there's
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: legal issues. Sometimes they are not allowed NDAs, they can't
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: say it too much. You never know what it is.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: You never know. But at this point, now they see,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: now that you've got this increasing body of work, these
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: books out, you know you can you get a little
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: more leverage each time.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: I think, so I mean, that was the main reason
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: for having a website. That it was because you could
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: then say to people you're trying to get hold of, Look,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: you can read the kind of thing I do. You
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: can read this until I'm not going to stitch you
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: up because I don't put everything in. I mean, people
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: do tell you stuff, and I try to send the
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: interview material back to them and say, look, this is
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: what you said, and on some occasions people have come
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: back and gone, well, I didn't mean to say that,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: or I'd like to put that in a different way.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: And that's okay with me because I'm not attempting to
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: do a journalistic kind of heavy approach on these things.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: You're a fan, They're my heroes. I'm a fan.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: You're a fan as much as you are a journalist.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: The website thing is interesting because there was a time
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: there where I thought, raw, maybe you don't need a website,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: But then I read all these articles about just marketing
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: and get getting the word out about because look, you know,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: I'm an independent show here, so I got to work
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: hard to get the word out and it is actually important.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: It's that you wanted to be the one stop, one
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: stop shopping type of thing or the hub for all
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: things your product. So when you do email somebody, you
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: could get too wordy or you just say, here's a
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: brief introduction, here's the link to my website. It's got
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: all the videos, got all the audio shows, it's got
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: the got a brief bio page. It's got everything that
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: you need to know. And I didn't realize that, but
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: that is an important thing. Websites are still important, especially
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: on the social media places you got to. You gotta
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: have a link to your website there, so it takes
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: them to everything. Link Tree is another good one, though
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: I don't have link Tree, but I have friends who
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: do link Tree, which is just a listing of all
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: their you know, all the websites that they're involved with,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: or where they write, who they write for and all that.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: But that's important to make it easy for people to
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: find you and find out about you.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: It was quite an eye on the really just starting.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: You think, I'll have a website so that that will help.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: And I have no idea what I was letting myself.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: I thought, I did oh, it's all yeah, right, I
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: did my I do my own website. Man, when I
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: first did it, I was like oof, I look back
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: at it and I was like, not too good. Still,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: I have work to do on it.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we've got one at work. And what's taken
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: off for us is the fact that we've got some
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: youngsters who want to come in and do TikTok, Instagram
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and they're talking in a language
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: I can barely understand, and I thought I knew this
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: stuff right. I mean, it's like those short clips on YouTube.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: When did that become a thing that you sort.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Of It's a huge thing, Chris. I'm telling you, the
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: shorter the length of a video, the more views I get.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: So the shorts are a minute or less now I
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: think YouTube allows a little over a minute now, but
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: those get more views. People their attention spans get smaller
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: and smaller, shorter and shorter, so you have to get
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: get them any way that you can. But then there
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: is the audience that does enjoy sitting down for an
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: hour and listening to an interview like us in full form.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: But then there are people that That's why I cut
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: them up into highlights too, because sometimes people prefer just
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: five minutes, ten minutes. So there's all these different variations
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: of it's interesting it is. It's a lot of work,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: but the folks that you're working with, they are younger.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: It's important to have him because it's like he got
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: to keep up with the changing times. I would never
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: have social media for my own personal life because quite frankly,
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody would give a crap. But I
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: need it for the show, so I you know, and
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: TikTok is for a younger audience, but hey, if I
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: grab a few more people, because quite frankly, I have
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: my nephew who's twenty years old, and he's got a
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: friend who loves classic rock and he's the same age,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: twenty years old, So you don't know, there are people
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: out there that love classic rock that are younger. Most part,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: when I look at the research, it shows that the
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: people that like reading the books that you write and
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: listening to the podcasts like I have, they're usually between
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: like I think, forty five and sixty five is like
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: the target, you know, because that's the age range that
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: grew up on it.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: A girl working with some work experience recently and she said,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: what do you do when you're not working here? And
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I said, well, actually write books. And I've got a website,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: that's what I like to do. Said, oh, who have
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: you written books about? And she said, and I swear
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: this is true, she said, who are a c DC?
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: Oh god, oh my god.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And that was my banker of the list of bands
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: that I looked at and thought, well, that's that's gonna
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: be okay.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: No, see, now that's become Yeah. So now if guarantee
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: that they know a song by a CDC, probably a
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: handful of songs that they've heard they just don't know
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: it's CDC.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it's. Yeah. I think we're definitely looking
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: at the end of an era maybe, and I suppose
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: some of the songs will survive, won't they As you say,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: they won't know it's a they don't even care what.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Chris, thanks again for coming on all the
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: best with this new book on Black So the deal Yu. Yeah,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: we look forward to having you back on again, especially
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: for that book on the Alice album. We look forward
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure where that one's going to
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: actually pan O. I know how I'd like it to go.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: And I think it'll be very interesting book because I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: think it is a very interesting album and an era
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: in American history as well as Alice Coop's own personal history,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: so I think hopefully I want to get.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: A lot of that across it, all right, Chris, thank you.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Thank you again. Eric you take care. That's it. It's
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: in the box.