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INTERVIEW: Shaka Senghor Reveals Life's "Hidden Prisons", Finding Freedom, Forgiveness + More · The Breakfast Club

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Don't every day a week ago clicks up the Breakfast Club.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: You don't finish for y'all done morning.
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: Everybody is dj en Vy Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the gud
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: We are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: in the building. Yes, indeed, Shakas and welcome back, Brotherling.
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  Speaker 4: I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Thank y'all so much for having
• 0:18
  Speaker 4: me back. Man.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Shaka just put out an amazing new body of work, Man,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a new book, How to Be Free, a proving guid
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  Speaker 1: escaping life's hidden prisons.
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  Speaker 2: Man, what is a hidden prison?
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  Speaker 5: It's the things that you don't see that standing away
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  Speaker 5: of you living the best life for yourself.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 5: So, when I've thought about this, this big idea and
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: created this kind of blueprint to help people live the
• 0:41
  Speaker 5: life that they're fully capable of, the fully deserving of,
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  Speaker 5: I recognize that we all had these hidden prisons, you know,
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  Speaker 5: self doubt, negative self talk. You know, that's one of
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  Speaker 5: the big things that kind of standing away. But there's
• 0:53
  Speaker 5: also things like anger, grief, shame, things from our childhood
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  Speaker 5: that really doesn't allow us to show up fully authentically
• 1:01
  Speaker 5: in our full potential.
• 1:03
  Speaker 6: You know, I wanted to.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: I know you got the book out, but there's a
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: lot that's been going on, and I figured you would
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: be the right person to ask some questions about so
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: everything going on in Atlanta.
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  Speaker 6: It seems like people, I wouldn't.
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  Speaker 3: Say, glorify the street, right, glorify things that happen in
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  Speaker 3: the street. And I feel like sometimes people don't know
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  Speaker 3: how to get out of it. Right, you see what
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  Speaker 3: happened to Atlanta. Everybody's a niche, this person's a rat.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: When do you get to an age or what do
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  Speaker 3: you tell those young as it says, hey, it's not
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  Speaker 3: worth it.
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  Speaker 6: We see what's happening. But it seems like they don't
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  Speaker 6: learn their lessons.
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  Speaker 3: So what do you tell one of those little young
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  Speaker 3: those little young brothers out there.
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  Speaker 2: Because that's a prison that's not hidden.
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  Speaker 5: But I think one of the things with our culture,
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  Speaker 5: specifically like hip hop culture, is we've kind of intermingled
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  Speaker 5: the idea that these guys are really street guys and
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  Speaker 5: really they artists. They're kids who are trying to figure
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  Speaker 5: out how to make money using the talent but also
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  Speaker 5: using the stories from a background that society has sold
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  Speaker 5: us on as being like the way to show up
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  Speaker 5: in world, right, like the only way we can make it.
• 2:02
  Speaker 5: And what I tell the young people is that it's
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  Speaker 5: made way more money in legitimate enterprise. And like I
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  Speaker 5: was pretty decent with street sales, but I can tell
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  Speaker 5: you make way more money in legitimate enterprise. And the
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  Speaker 5: accessibility to it now is something we see. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: like you can take a phone and build a whole career, right,
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  Speaker 5: And so I think we have to separate like what's
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  Speaker 5: really the streets from like what's music culture and these
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  Speaker 5: kids pretending to be street guys, because it's kind of
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  Speaker 5: ridiculous if you think about it. If you're making all
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  Speaker 5: this money in music, then why are you going backwards?
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  Speaker 5: Because it's not many guys that's really financially successful coming
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  Speaker 5: for the streets, Like and I mean, you talk to
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  Speaker 5: any of the guys that actually are you know, recognized
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  Speaker 5: from being in that environment, they tell you most guys
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  Speaker 5: don't make real money in the streets. Most guys are
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  Speaker 5: basically minimum wage.
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  Speaker 4: You know, workers.
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  Speaker 5: So if you're making all this legitimate money in music,
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  Speaker 5: why would you kind of try to intermingle that with
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  Speaker 5: this identity that's not real?
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  Speaker 4: Man?
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  Speaker 1: That's a great point and what do you say to
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  Speaker 1: people who act like the screeches in industry?
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  Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is.
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  Speaker 1: You'll have folks that will say things to you like, well,
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  Speaker 1: who determines what's legal and illegal?
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  Speaker 2: Or who determines what's right and what's wrong.
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  Speaker 1: Because they'll say, there's people out here that make money
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  Speaker 1: selling alcohol.
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  Speaker 2: There's people that out.
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  Speaker 1: Here that's making money selling marijuana. Now I'm like, that's
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  Speaker 1: not the same, Like the screech is not a real industry.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I mean it's a kind of dispersed industry. Right,
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  Speaker 5: It's like anything goes, but you when you look at
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  Speaker 5: how you know, for example, the marijuana industry, right, how
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  Speaker 5: that's evolved to become legitimate enterprise. Right, Like that's where
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: we should be, folks, And how do we change laws
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  Speaker 5: and policies to work for our advantage insteady being victimized
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  Speaker 5: by these policies and then somebody else reaps all the benefits.
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  Speaker 5: And so you know, I'm always telling telling you know,
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  Speaker 5: the young people that I mentor is really think about
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  Speaker 5: how do you get ownership and whatever it is you're
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  Speaker 5: interested in. Like that's I've been in Silicon Valley for
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  Speaker 5: three years, which actually is one of the inspirations for
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  Speaker 5: right now this book, because I work with people that's
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: like ultra wealthy, and yet I see them have kind
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  Speaker 5: of like some of the same prisons that you know,
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  Speaker 5: I see.
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  Speaker 4: People in a neighborhood.
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  Speaker 5: I've seen people who is actually in real prison have
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  Speaker 5: that same kind of mental blocks that doesn't allow them
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  Speaker 5: to show up authentically. Even though it looks like they
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  Speaker 5: got all the travelers of success, they're still not happy
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  Speaker 5: and fulfilled. So that's to me, it's more like, how
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  Speaker 5: are you getting equity, but also how are you creating
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  Speaker 5: like the mental equity to really live a life that you.
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  Speaker 4: Want to live.
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  Speaker 3: I got one more question with that. Is there a
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  Speaker 3: cold when it comes to the street in your opinion,
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  Speaker 3: But we.
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  Speaker 6: Had a conversation about cold. Is there a cold? Is
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  Speaker 6: there a cold that you're supposed to follow or is
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  Speaker 6: it just.
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  Speaker 3: Is it legal activity, you know, I mean, or is
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  Speaker 3: there something that guidelines that should be followed.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I grew up in the era of like
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  Speaker 5: crack cocaine, so I can't speak to with there's codes.
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  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 5: I haven't been in the streets in like thirty some years,
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  Speaker 5: and I'm fifty three years old.
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  Speaker 4: Man, successful business man.
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  Speaker 5: I'm an entrepreneur, married, I got a kid, I got investments.
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  Speaker 5: But I do you know, I mean, I still do
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  Speaker 5: a lot of work with with people in prison and
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  Speaker 5: in the neighborhoods, and you know, I kind of know that.
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  Speaker 5: You know, it's the codes are really your personal values, right,
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  Speaker 5: everybody can say that they're real and to them handcuffs
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  Speaker 5: going up to you in that terrogation room, and you're
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  Speaker 5: really facing a life sentence. And that's what that's what
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  Speaker 5: we don't talk about, is how many different ways you
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  Speaker 5: can end up serving life without actually even really doing
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  Speaker 5: anything meaningful, just by associations, right, you know, when you're
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  Speaker 5: talking about those rico charges, a lot of these guys
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  Speaker 5: not making real money. They just around and then you
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  Speaker 5: get swooped up and the way the farest players, they
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  Speaker 5: gonna load up everything they could charge you with and
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  Speaker 5: then most likely you'll plead out, which is like ninety
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  Speaker 5: five percent of people do.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't.
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  Speaker 5: I stay out the streets and I'm out here just
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  Speaker 5: being a grown mary man.
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  Speaker 3: No, we try to tell the youngers that to stay
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  Speaker 3: out the streets absolutely in a minute, it ain't worth it,
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  Speaker 3: and any little bit of money you were gonna make,
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  Speaker 3: or any little bit of clouds that you're gonna make,
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  Speaker 3: ain't like worth the ten life sentences, two lifesent This
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  Speaker 3: is a one life sentence, you know.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, it ain't worth missing your family, life, your kids.
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  Speaker 6: It ain't worth it.
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  Speaker 4: Man.
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  Speaker 5: You know, the nineteen years in prison that I serve,
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  Speaker 5: I've watched life go by. You know, I came home,
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  Speaker 5: my younger siblings were adults. My nephews and nieces didn't
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  Speaker 5: even know me, you know, they had to get to
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  Speaker 5: know me. And so you can't you can't replace those years.
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  Speaker 5: You know, there's nothing you can do to get that
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  Speaker 5: time back. And this is what I can tell you
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  Speaker 5: for sure about about prison. Life is the toughest break
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  Speaker 5: under those circumstances. Everybody when they when they hit that
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  Speaker 5: pillar at night, they're wishing that they would have made
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  Speaker 5: different life choices, you know what I mean. So I
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  Speaker 5: wouldn't wish that on anybody, and I try to discourage guys.
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  Speaker 5: I think one of the things I will say that
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  Speaker 5: I'm proud of that I'm starting to see in our
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  Speaker 5: culture it's more interest being you know, placed on actually
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  Speaker 5: the legitimate financial investments you know, I think about what
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  Speaker 5: the young brother's doing on your leisure. You know, I
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  Speaker 5: think about Wallow and some of the brothers I've been
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  Speaker 5: able to interact with, and I'm like, Yo, that's that's
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  Speaker 5: a move right there, because it's still cool at the
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: end of the day. If it's really about making money.
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  Speaker 5: Investments is a way to make make a lot of money,
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  Speaker 5: you know, And that's the freedom that I even talk
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  Speaker 5: about in the book.
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  Speaker 4: It's like financial freedom.
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  Speaker 5: You know, how are you taking advantage of these opportunities
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  Speaker 5: that's really right in front of you? And you know,
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  Speaker 5: my philosophy is simple. I came from nineteen years in prison,
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  Speaker 5: seven years in solitary confinement, to becoming really, really successful,
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  Speaker 5: not only as an author but also as an investor.
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  Speaker 5: So my philosophy is like, if I can do it
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  Speaker 5: coming from those circumstances, what excuse you got?
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  Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 5: So I tell my mentees, you got to take every
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  Speaker 5: excuse off the table because I've done all the hard
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  Speaker 5: work for you. And that's you know, That's what I've
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  Speaker 5: done in this book is like, here's a framework and
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  Speaker 5: a blueprint for you to literally live the freeest life possible.
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  Speaker 1: One of the biggest hitting prisoners I see is people,
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  Speaker 1: you know, being defined by their past mistakes, are not
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  Speaker 1: knowing how to let go of their past mistakes. So
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: how do you keep from being defined by your past
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  Speaker 1: mistakes when the system is sometimes even your own people
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  Speaker 1: want to keep you stuck there?
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  Speaker 4: Man, I stay out the comments. It's brutal out there. Man.
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  Speaker 5: No, but but but really it's a lot of self
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  Speaker 5: affirming care right. It's like negative self talk is one
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  Speaker 5: of the biggest self imposed prisons I've found where even
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  Speaker 5: successful people are doubting themselves or you know, dealing with
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  Speaker 5: imposter syndrome, like why am I in this room?
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  Speaker 4: Do I really belong in this room?
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  Speaker 5: And so for me, you know, the way that I've
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: kind of mapped my life out is really through writing
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: it down Like journalists, one of the greatest hacks in
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  Speaker 5: life is like when you see it, you can be
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: super clear on Hey, here's who I actually am, not
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: who they say I am. I get judged all the time,
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: like why are you able to do some of these things?
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  Speaker 5: You know, you went to pro went to prison for
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  Speaker 5: a homicide. You know, it's one of the most regrettable
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  Speaker 5: acts in my life, and It's something I could never undo,
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: which is why I'm so conscious about talking to the
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  Speaker 5: young guys about the decisions that they make. And I've
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  Speaker 5: also lived fifteen years of freedom where I've been able
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  Speaker 5: to create, you know, a lot of value for community
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: that I mean, I've invested in the community in the
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: real way, and so I've done way more good than
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: I've done bad. But the reality is people are going
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  Speaker 5: to bring that up. You know, they're gonna judge you
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  Speaker 5: for that. And so that's why that self talk is
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  Speaker 5: so important, and journaling and really writing it down and
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  Speaker 5: getting super clear about who you are really is what
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  Speaker 5: makes the world of difference.
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  Speaker 6: Let me ask you a questions. What's free to you?
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  Speaker 4: Right?
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  Speaker 3: And the reason I asked that is some people look
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  Speaker 3: at free as financial freedom. One of my biggest things
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: for myself was making sure my kids were free. And
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: when I mean free, I mean this life is short.
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  Speaker 6: Try to set them up.
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  Speaker 3: Where they can do what they want to do just
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: to be happy. Right, if my daughter wanted to do
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: here for the rest of my life, what ever made
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: her happy? It ain't about the mansions, the cause and
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: all that that we think that some people idolize.
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: Some people don't. But what's free to you? Because I
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: always felt just living a free life and being happy
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  Speaker 6: is free to me.
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: Yes, it's really having complete agency and autonomy over my
• 9:53
  Speaker 5: time and how I spend it and who I spend
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: it with, and being able to wake up and every
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: day and say that I'm intentional about the where I
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: live my life, that I'm unburding by anything that does
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  Speaker 5: not coincide with my core values.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 5: And so you know, I'm an artist, so I want
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: to wake up and be able to create, you know,
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  Speaker 5: I want to be able to spend time with people
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  Speaker 5: that I actually value and care about in a meaningful way.
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: And like being able to create space for myself and
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: create a lifestyle that really allows me to have that agency.
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  Speaker 5: That's like the ultimate freedom.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 5: But then I you know, I drilled down into like
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: what is financial freedom? You know, that's really recognizing that
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: my money actually works for me instead of me working
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: for money. What does freedom look like with love?
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: Is being able to show up authentically with my family,
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: being vulnerable, being open, you know, not playing this kind
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: of put this mask on as a dad or as
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: a husband, and being able to show up in that
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: way man, it's the most incredible sense of freedom. And
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: then you know the socially, you know, one of the
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: things that this will be the first place that I
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: shared this on because it was share. Recently, Oprah talked
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: about me putting in for my partner and she asked
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: me what would mean if I got my partner, and
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: I said, it the mean that I'm you know, now
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: I'm back included in the tribe, because there are barriers
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: when you have a felony on your life, you know,
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: and it's been you know, you know, I caught this
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: felony in nineteen ninety one and it still impacts my life,
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: my wife's life, my son's life, and unfortunately, we just
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: learned that they didn't give me that pardon, and so
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: I had to reimagine, like what this freedom looked like
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: to be unburdened by a system. And really what it
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: looks like to me is I was a presidential party. Well,
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: it wouldn't have been president and governor because I was.
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: My case was state so Whittmer in Michigan, and they
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: shot it down at the fifteen years and I'm talking
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: about come on, yeah, what I've received in fifteen years
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: is like unparalleled for somebody who was formally incarcerated. But
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: it was one of those moments, right, Well, I had
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: to go back to my own book, the own my
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: own framework of like, Okay, how do you navigate that disappointment,
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: you know, without it spiraling? Right, Because it's infuriating when
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: you think about, I've done all this work in the
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: world and I'm still told that it's not enough, you
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: know what I mean, how does.
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: That make you feel?
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: Because you you know, not that it's it's you know
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: that you deserve it or you earn it, but you
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: did so much for your city, right, You've changed, You've
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: talked about your change, you accepted what happened, like you've
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: been a man and said, you know, this is what
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: it was.
• 12:21
  Speaker 6: But you've made it your life.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: To make sure that you've changed and you give back
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: and that for them to turn you down, what does
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: that do to you?
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean it was it was a moment.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: Man.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: I remember my wife and I we were you know,
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: she had brought the mail in and she handed me
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: the mail and you know, we both kind of like excited,
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: like all right, well what's going to happen?
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: Right? And I open up and it was just like
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: the way they shot me down.
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: It wasn't even no clarity as to why, right, it
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: was just like, you've been denied reapplying two years. And
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: in my man, I'm like, Okay, what do I What
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: do I accomplish in two years that I haven't accomplished
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: in fifteen?
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Right? And so it's that thing of like that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: That reminder that comes back over and over You're not
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: worthy to be fully included. And so what I what
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: I what I did is I actually literally went to
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: the playbook that I've outlined in How to Be Free,
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: and I went back in our journal. I was like,
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: how do I really feel about this? What does this
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: really mean for my life? And what is my plan
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: moving forward? Because initially I was like, man, I'm not
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: a plan back in two years? Like why would I?
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: Why would I do that? I've accomplished so much. I mean,
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: I'm been Grammy nominated album with NAS, Emmy winning film
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: with Able to Verney, New York Times Bestseller fellow at
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: m I T Fellow at Virginia Tech Kellogg Like you name.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: It your community work, community work, you know what I'm saying.
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: And so I'm like, what more? What more? Do they
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: want from me?
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: And it was like through that process of writeing and down,
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: it was like, you know, at the end of the day,
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna show up in the spirit of gratitude for
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: all of it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: Have you talked to the government.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: Have y'all spoke at all?
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: I've never spoke to the governor because you go, it
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: goes through a whole parole, board, part and board. I
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: spoke to the lieutenant government. I actually know lieutenant governor.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: And then he running and he's running for governor.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: He's probably running for governor.
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: So yeah, Gilgris, Yeah, and so you know, it's it's
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: it's one of those things where you just kind of
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: go back to like what is my role in this right?
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: And for me, it's coming back to a spirit of gratitude.
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: My life is blessed. I'm blessed. Even the things that
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: challenged me betters me. And so that's how I so
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: it's approach it.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: You know, we pay attention to stuff like that Governor
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Shapiro's with Governor joshapairoll he pardon Wallow, Yeah, you know
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. So you know, Governor, your women, I hope
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: you know, attention to stuff.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: Like that that's real.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: You know one of the other hidden prisons man that well,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about hitting prisons. Can freedom
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: be obtained if you are physically free, but you're still
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: battling things within your stuff? That's why I love that
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: you did this guide to being a hitten prison, because
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I wonder that when you're you're out physically, yeah, but.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Can it truly be attained if you still battling things
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: within here?
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: Here's one of the things that I shared in the
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: book that I think blew people mind is that I
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: realized I was incarcerated before I was having a prison
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: cell like. Mentally, I brought into a narrative that my
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: life can only have two outcomes dead or on prison
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: before twenty one.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: And I ended up living that narrative.
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: But I was also free before they ever let me out,
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: because I took the time to really start to do
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: the hard work right of asking that question, how did
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: I end up here?
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: Right? Like?
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: How did I end up serving out my most promising
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: years in a sale Like? I wanted to be a
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: doctor and an artist and I ended up getting caught
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: up in the street coach when I was fourteen years
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: old and dealt with all the things that came with that.
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: And so when I was actually in physical prison, I
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: started to kind of write my way out, journaling I
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: got free before they ever let me out. And so
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: the reason I wrote this book is working in Silicon
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: Valley and working in the community, I started to see
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: a consistent trend of people really who were like stuck.
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: You know. Sometime it was grief.
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: Sometimes they couldn't get over the loss of a job,
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: the loss of a loved one.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it was shame.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: You know, Silicon Valley is a very aggressive environment, right,
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: It's like it's hard. You got to be a real
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: hustler to survive in that environment. And I would see
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: people just get broken from being shamed when they didn't
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: execute on the project. And so I started to see
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: these consistent patterns anger, the inability to forgive, which is
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: something that I think really is a hidden prison for
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: a lot of people, where you get stuck and this
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: thing of like I'm going to hold on to like
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: not forgiveness person. Meanwhile that person out somewhere frolicking, and
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: you get up upset every time you think of it,
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: and you just can't move on with your life. And
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: then there's also like these well intended prisons, right, helicopter parenting.
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: Have you see that parent who's just like, I'm gonna
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: do all the things for my child. I'm a Hoffer
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: over room. And then your child doesn't build up resilience,
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: They don't build up any agency, they don't build up
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: any capabilities.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: And even in love life, right, it's like we broke up,
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: but we're going to remain friends. And then you wonder
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: why you can never find a husband or a wife
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: because you're trapped in these old narratives. And so it's
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: a lot of people that's out here that's stuck in
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: the old story.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Talk about the forgiveness freedom, right, that was a tough
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: one for me for a long time.
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: Right, I held things right?
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know I was.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: I was talking to somebody recently, and then I didn't
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: hold them for forgiveness or non forgiveness. I held them
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: for revenge, right, because I felt like I needed that
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: look back.
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: I mean I need that for two right.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: So that's one of the most difficult for people. So,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: so break that down. As far as the forgiveness freedom.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: That's a great one.
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: So interesting enough, a couple of years ago I got
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: a letter from the guy who shot me when I
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: was seventeen years old. This exchanged our beef. It was,
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: you know, thirty seconds right put up on the block.
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: We had words exchange.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: He shot me.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: I never saw this guy's face, shot me three times.
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: I get this letter and he's like, yo, I'm the
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: guy who shot you. I apologized at the time. He's
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: still me in prison right now. I got mad respecting there.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, Like I can literally call
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: and shoot somebody. Somebody on their books, take care of dude.
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: I felt that old anger come up for hot second,
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: for a hot second, and I literally said, well, what
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: do you preach? You preach that people are worthy of
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: second chances, Like you got to be a man of
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: your word. You gotta honor that right. And so I
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: had to sit with that, and I realized that the
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: anger was rooted and I never saw.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: This guy's face. So I looked him up on the.
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: Computer, saw his face, and I made peace with that,
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: and I started writing him a letter. And then I
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: was like, you know what, I don't owe him that
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: I can forget his brother moved on. But instead I
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: actually wrote a letter to my mother because we were
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: in a space of healing and I was getting to
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: a space of realizing I thought I had forgiven her,
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: but I was holding on to something, and so that
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: letter allowed me to release that and get to a
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: space where Man, my mother and our relationship has evolved
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: to the point where I feel like the parent, you
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: know what I'm saying, and trying to protect the little
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: girl that got hurt.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: That turned her into a hurt woman and a hurt mother.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: And that was the beauty of forgiveness, is like I
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: forget this guy. I had to let it go. I
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: could have, you know, been back in that old energy.
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, man, that don't feel good in my spirit,
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean, Because I've said to people
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: like you aren't your worst moment. And like that guy,
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: whatever moment he was in when he shot me, I
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: was in a similar moment when I shot somebody else.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: But would you feel different if he didn't apologize, If
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: he didn't come out and say I'm sorry.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Would you.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Feel differently and not say, you know what, I needed
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: that apology, you know what I mean?
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: Would it make you feel different?
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Would you still forgive the same way if he didn't
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: apologize and you found out who it was, Yeah, I would.
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: Because I have the wisdom how to understand that oftentimes
• 19:48
  Speaker 5: people are operating out of a spirit or hope that
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: has nothing to.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Do with me. Oo you know what I mean.
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean like a lot of times we're holding
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: on to things with people that we aren't even really
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: thinking about how did they arrive at that right? Like
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: you know I talk about in the book, my brother
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: was murdered in July twenty twenty one, and I remember
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: sitting in my family's living room and I'm you know,
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: I'm coming home. I'm like, let me come home and help,
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: but my brother let me be a support for my dad,
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: my mom. And then I had this moment where I
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: was watching my step mom and she's heartbroken. It's her
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: baby boy that's been murdered. And I felt guilty, you
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: know what I mean. So I was caught between this
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: world of trying to grieve for my brother, guilty because
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: I made somebody else family feel like that, you know
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: what I mean. And so I was sitting there like,
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: what's stuck with this energy? And so when I look
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: at somebody who's done something that's harmful, like I can't
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: like just just them solely based on that without looking within.
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: And when I look within, I realized that the decision
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: I made as a nineteen year old kid came from
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: a space of hurt, PTSD, all the things. So whether
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: he would apologize or not, I have to realize that
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: that he was probably similar, you know, he probably came
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: through gun trauma and gun violence and there was something
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: inside him that was broken, you know what I mean,
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: that had nothing to do with me. That's how me
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: and my mother was able to hear my mother she
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: started to open up to me man about the things
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: that happened in her life, and it all made sense.
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: You understood, you know what I mean.
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: I understood that she was, you know, sexually assaulted as
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: a kid, she was abused as a teenager, you know
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: what I mean. And so like once I recognize that,
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: I have to see that in anybody that I have
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: conflict with, that something inside of them is dictating the
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: behavior in the same way that it happened with me,
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean. So that's how I get
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: to that deep forgiveness. And that's one of the things
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: about the book that you as you begin to read
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: through it, not only are you getting these powerful stories,
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: but you're really getting like, here's a how to unlock
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: that door and let yourself out, because when you don't forgive,
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: the other person isn't suffering like you're You're trapped in
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: that cage, right, And so I wanted to make sure
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: that people had the keys let themselves out.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: You have a shocked by the amount of people that
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: want to keep you in that box. That that that
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: box of oh yeah, he murdered somebody when h nineteen
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: years old, because I saw the comments on Joe Rogan.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: But then on the flip side, yo, you your your
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: redeeming quality was that moment. It was the fact you
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: went to prison. I was at Rikers with you. Yes,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I said, the connection that you have, you know, with
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: these inmates. You tell that story and they automatic you
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: can you can see them like, oh I can relate
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to what that brother went through, Like they look at
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: you as a beacon of hope. You know, somebody who
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: paid it to society and made it. So you have
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a shock how people want to keep you in that box.
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: I'm never really shocked because I know that oftentimes people
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: are operating out of their own hurt, you know what
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: I mean?
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: And like they're hot. They are.
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: We live in a snap judgment society, like people can
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: look at you and make a decision and a split
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: second without actually really getting to know you. You know,
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: That's one of the things I was super happy when
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: we went into Rikers Island is the work that you're
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: doing in the world. I think it's some of the
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: most incredile but meaningful work ever. You know, this mental
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: health piece is so important to our culture, and prison
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: is where it's really needed at.
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: And for you to be able to bear witness to
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: that in that testimony, you see that people aren't in
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: there like yo, let me get out and wild out.
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: They're really looking for help and they're really hurt.
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: And so you know that balances out for me, you
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: know what I mean, to go in there man and
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: pour into people and like those are my people, that's
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: my tribe, you know what I'm saying. But to go
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: in there and the pouring to them and had them
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: pour into me, like that balances out all the negativity,
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean, and what I always think
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: about you know, I'm thinking about them people in the comments.
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: You know, I sometimes I'm kind of petty in my thoughts.
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, I'm like, here, this person
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: is trying to troll me, and I might have just
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: flew in on a PJ. I'm good, you know what
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: I'm saying, Like I'm great, man. My wife might have
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: just went out and had an amazing dinner. My son might
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: have accomplished something brilliant, Like life is good, and like
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: that's where I think sometimes we get lost at especially
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: with like you know, all the digital content is we
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: forget we're living a real life. We're really present in
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: the moment. And again that's another practice that I have.
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: It's mindfulness. It's like it doesn't mean that you don't
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: hear the things. I just bring myself back to my
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: real moments. Where am I really at in life? You
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: know what I mean? Am I stuck in nineteen ninety
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: one because that's where they want to be?
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Or am I actually present? You know? Am I out
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: here pruning my plants? You know what I'm saying, I'm.
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: Out here you know, doing whatever it is at home
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: that brings me joy?
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: Am I sitting out and the grives just reading the
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: book and enjoying life while these people are miserable, you
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: know what I mean.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: So I don't give too much, but you do.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: You do understand people's mindsets sometimes, right. I remember the
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: first time when I heard the story, and I remember
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: the first time you came on the breakfast club reading
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: the comments, and the first thing people would say was, well,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: why him?
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Right, he just did this?
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: Why is he on Oprah? Why is he on a
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: breakfast club? Like this is not fair because people are
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: so used to people doing things and not changing.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: They see, like you said, they see the negatives things,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: but they don't see the other side of it, right,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: And sometimes I feel like, and this is why sometimes
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I have a problem with Sometimes people are the church
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: that do foul stuff or they talk about the stuff
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: that they shouldn't do, and then you see them doing
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: the thing like we're not all human, like we all
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: don't make mistakes, right. But it's always I always says
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: apology is fine, but it's the change behavior that shows everything. Absolutely,
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: And we've seen your journey from that change behavior. So
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you understand why people's first knowledge of first
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: mind frame is this, that and the other.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: Right you have to yeah, no, absolutely, you know.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: And I think about how we arrive at our conclusions
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: right as we see the end product. So they see
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: me here, you know, they don't see the work that
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: it took for me to get here.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: They see me on Oprah, and I realized I came home.
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: I was literally hustling books out of the trunk of
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: my car like a lot of people be like they
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: got it out the mud. Me and my brother we
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: always talk about we got it from beneath the mud.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: I used to set up tables and gentlemen's clubs. You
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: know what I'm saying to be like yo by these books, right,
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: And I've got rejected so many times. I mean I've
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: tried to get employment, felly came up, like you name
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: a rejection.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: I's got it.
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: Right, And so they don't see that part of the
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: of the journey. But also understand, right, people feel like,
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: you know, you you've done something bad in life. You
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: don't deserve any good to happen to you, you know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: but I hate you for that.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah it's hypocritical.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna name names, but we've got
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: rappers who've done that and rap about it, and yeah,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: haven't shown any.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Change made at all. They still get welcomed everywhere.
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I celebrated absolutely, And I think that's one of
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: the things in our culture, like we pick and choose
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: what we what we celebrate, and would always just try
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: to tell people is like, understand, as long as you
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: wake up breathing, you're on a journey, you know what
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, And where you start doesn't mean it's where
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: you have to end. That's That's the amazing thing that
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: you know people will really get out of the book
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: is that Look, I started, you know, in the in
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: the worst of environments, with the worst of circumstances, and
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: mentally I began to break free from that and start
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: to think about what is what is life possible abilities?
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: Like I was telling you know, the brothers and sisters
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: in prison yesterday, I wrote down when I was in
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: solitary confact I didn't even know if I was getting
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: out of prison. I was like, but if I ever
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: get out, here's all the things that I want to
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: manifest in my life. And I still had those journals
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: right now in my garage, and I wrote down everything
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: that I wanted accomplish, you know what I mean.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: And so I did that because life really.
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: Is a journey and as long as you wake up breathing,
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: you got an opportunity, and it's really up to you
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: to seize that opportunity. And so that's what I've done.
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: I've seized the opportunity. And I just keep growing and
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: keep building, and keep evolving and keep being just curious
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: about life.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: One of the things that kept coming up yesterday even
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: at Rikers was the topic of grief. Yeah, and man,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: grief is one of those hidden prisons that it's almost like,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you know, you're get in trouble back in.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: The day, you end up doing a weekend. You had
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: a good week, you that work, but.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Getting locked up for the weekend, you do some of
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: those guys that had to go in on the weekend, Right,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: That's what it feels like with grief.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: So how do you get out of that hidden prison
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: of grief?
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, that's that's that's when I actually start
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: with grief because I think it's the toughest prison for
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: anybody to get out, because can't nobody gets come to
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: you to be like charlamagn't stop grieving, Like that'll be
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: mean or cruel, right, and all grief isn't the same, right, Like,
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: you know, when I think about my brother's death. I
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: think about that diffinitely from my grandmother who just got
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: older and she passed and she transitioned sad miss Granny
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: missed the things.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: My brother that was traumatic.
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: You know what I mean, sonstandable, It's more understandable, right,
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: And so those different type of grief. You can go
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: back to work after two weeks after you know, grandma passed.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: Somebody in your family is murdered or tragically lost, that's.
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: More difficult, right.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: What I what I arrived at for myself is gratitude.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: You know, how do I How am I thankful for
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: the time that I spent with my brother? How am
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: I thankful for my brother's name is Shara is always
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: want to shout him out's name?
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: Is?
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: How do I honor what he meant to our family?
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: You know, my siblings and and and that's what allows
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: me to heal.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: But here's the thing, like in the book.
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: Even the way that we designed the book, there's a
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: door in this part where it's about digging deeper. And
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: the reason I created the open door is because sometimes
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: you go in and out of these things. If you
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: live life long enough, you're gonna grieve more than once right,
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: And it's not always death. Sometimes it's an employment loss,
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: it's a love loss, it's losing a friend, friendships to end.
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: And to me, it's always about gratitude. You know what
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: am I thankful for in this experience? And it doesn't
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: take away like the longing for those moments or missing
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: my brother. It just allows me to reframe that his
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: life wasn't the moment it ended. It was all of
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: the things that came before that. And I got a
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: chance to appreciate that and spend time with him, and
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: you know, and and and love. Well, this was my
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: only little brother, you know, this my baby brother, and
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: and all the time we got a chance to share.
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: You know, I wanted to be able to honor that,
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: you know, through a spirit of gratitude.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, you talk about that in the book.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: So it's like, whenever that grief comes up, just just
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: be grateful for the time you did spend.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, Like what what part of that?
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: I go back to like my brother, Like I have
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: a younger sister named Bootsie and her and she's the
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: baby girl.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: He was the baby boy.
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: And they have a special relationship, right, they talk smack
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: to each other all the time. So on those tough
• 30:21
  Speaker 5: tough days, I think about the way that them too
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: used to joke, you know what I mean, and that
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: brings me my spirit a sense of peace, you know,
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: And that's and that's you know. In the book, also
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: talk about we had this beautiful puppy that you know,
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: a negligent trainer left the gate open and got ran over,
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: you know, and it was like it was heartbreaking, you know.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: And I also talk about my younger son, Say who
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: being diagnosed with type one diabetes and seeing his young
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: life changed.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: So there's that type of grief.
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: Right and like now we have to manage and navigate
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: life through that lens, which is you know, it's wild
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: as a parent, you know, because you think about your
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: kid accomplished something. The first thing you do, let's go
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: grab ice cream, you know. So we had to start
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: thinking differently about all these moments, but again just leaning
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: into gratitude that he's the type of kid that's like
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm going to fight this thing and I'm
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: going to stand up you know, to my own body,
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: and like that watching him, that gives me a sense
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: of like, man, I'm thankful that we've embode in his
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: spirit so that he can, you know, he can rise
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: to the casion.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: In part three of the book, you talk about embracing
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: freedom and down the separate chapters. I'm just gonna name
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: all the chapters, but I want you to tell me
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: which one of those is the most important for finding
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: and embracing freedom.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: So you have hope and composure.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have love, you have joy, you have success,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: you have facing down fear, becoming unstoppable, finding true freedom?
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Which one of those is most important?
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: All of them? Trying to man, you gotta read all,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: But I would say the thing that I found the
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: most interesting was was joy, especially like as a as
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: a man. You know, we don't we don't often give
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: ourselves from missing to fully give in to the idea
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: that we can't experience joy and happiness and that it
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: doesn't make you sow for a week or a lame
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: or whatever. That it's actually dope and amazing, you know.
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: And so I think joy really kind of undergirds like
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: what it means to love, you know, to you know,
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: one of the things that is great to me is
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: like my son and my wife, they have similar energy.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: They're like excitable and like you know, they get turned
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: up like you know, for anything, and I always watch
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: that and it's just like, man, that's an amazing orientation
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: around life, you know, And even though I don't have
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: that type of energy, Like my mindset is more like
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: how do I show up in joy with them? And
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: then how I show up and joy in my own life.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: And it was a difficult thing I didn't even realize,
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: Like my reaction to things that are joyful was initially resistance.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: I got invited on an incredible trip to go to
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: Italy yacht for like thirteen days, and my instinct was
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: like figuring out ways why I shouldn't go on this trip.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: And that's when I realized it.
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: Was attached to something deeper, this this inability to really
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: just give myself permission to let go. And once I
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: identified that, I was like, oh, I'm not standing my
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: own way anymore. I'm showing up you name, you name.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: The same thing.
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: I'm going to it, you know what I'm saying, Uh,
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: And I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna be president and
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: like that to me is like the ultimate freedom.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was glad you used that term of joy
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: because I've been saying in this era that we're in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: right now, black people have to create safe spaces for
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: us to just simply experience.
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: Jo Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, because that's that's the thing. Like
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: so much of like where we're at coachally, we're in
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: survival mode, you know, and once you step out of
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: survival and getting the thriving, you realize that that joy
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: is like one of the greatest components of what it
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: means to live a life that where you're thriving at
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: When you're in that survival mode, it's hard to appreciate anything,
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean. It's like we we celebrate,
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: but are we fully present in that celebration, you know.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: And that's what I really wanted to offers, like here's
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: how you like not only not only experienced joy, but
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: be a joy hunter, you know. So I have this
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: part in the book where I talk about how do
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: you seek it out?
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: How do you go and find it?
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: How do you go in and experience and be curious
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: about life in such a way where you're like, oh,
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: that actually was joyful?
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: So when I'm when I'm out different cities, different times,
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: I'm like, what would bring me joy in terms of experience,
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: Like my one of my favorite things is I like
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: to collect first edition paperback books written by block authors.
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: So when I go into a city, I'm like, where's
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: the used bookstore at? And I'm telling you, like I
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: be hyped up, like I'm about to go get the
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: latest mixtape. You know what I'm saying, because that brings
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: me joy, that sense of fulfillment of like seeing these
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: pages that somebody has written.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a.
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: Writer, so that that's like my joy hunting. I'm like
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: out on a mission.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: You know, it's wild because as you're saying that, I'm
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: watching your wife smile and so like she felt, he
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: feels she knows the joy you feel from that, and
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: it resonates with her.
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, because I've drug her on some missions. Let's go
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: to this bookstore and I'll be turned up, but see
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: be with.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: It, you know what I mean.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like trauma is the root of all
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: hidden prisons?
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: I think trauma is one of the core anchoring pieces
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: of the hidden prisons. You know, a lot of how
• 35:20
  Speaker 5: we see our lives has been shaped by our childhood,
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: and there's like big trauma and small trauma, right, But
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: I think it's it's really shaped by just negative experiences,
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: because some don't quite rise to the level of trauma,
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: but they do rise to the level of like making
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: you think about something in a way that's unpleasant. And
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: I think that's where a lot of the negative self
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: talught comes from. It's like, you know, you're in environments
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: might it's like, oh, you can't accomplish that, and now
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: you've adopted that's not necessarily Trauma's just negative input, but
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: now it has you questioning whether you can accomplish a
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: thing or not, right, And so I think there's like
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: the kind of big trauma, then they're like this kind
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: of small negative inputs.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: How do we use your new book, How to Be Free,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: to shift from telling young people, especially young brothers, to
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: do better to actually creating healing spaces that deal with
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: that trump.
• 36:15
  Speaker 5: That's a great question. I think we saw a lot
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: of that yesterday when we was at Riker. So one
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: of the things that I've done with this book is
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: I started the largest book club in prisons.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: So we gave the book away to.
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: Thirteen hundred prisons, to about a million people who are
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: incarcerated because I want to make sure that they had
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: access to this information and this framework so that they
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: can live the most free life possible, even though their
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: circumstances doesn't look look free. And I think what we
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: do is we start study groups, you know, we start
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: to really have these deep conversations, and like, it was
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: mind blowing to see how the people who are incarcerated
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: leaned into this book. Specifically, they had questions, they had thoughts,
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: they had all these things because we did create a
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: real framework within the book for them to kind of,
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: you know, guide the conversation. And it was amazing, you
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: know what I'm saying, to really see how that played out.
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: And I would love to do that out here where
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: we started to connect the dots, you know, especially in
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: our culture where it's like, you know, I'm I'm it's
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: wild sometime when I think about wrapping all the things
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: that they're rapping about it, I'm like, I really lived
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: that life, and but I may not be the person
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: that they see as being accessible because I'm not over
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: indexing on my past. I'm like, listen, I'm living a
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: whole different life and I want to bring you to
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: this part of it, not that old life, you.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: Know what I mean.
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: But I think this is a book opportunity that you know,
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: I would love to see more brothers and sisters in
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: the culture, like starting study groups and think tanks around
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: this framework, because it really is one of those problems
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: and we don't have nothing like it in our culture, right.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: Like you know, when I was when I was set
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: out to write this.
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: Particular book, I really was like, Man, I thought about
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: the books that helped me in my life while I
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: was incarcerated as a man, think of the secret man
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: starts with meaning all these books, and I didn't see
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: any book that was authored by somebody who really had
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: lived and experience that I had lived, and so I
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: was like, Oh, it's up to me to create that.
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: And that's how we ended up with this book. And
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: shout out to my brother being Horowitz, who actually encouraged
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: me to write a lesson book which was really powerful
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: and impactful.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Is a desire to be accepted a hidden prison?
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: Oh? Absolutely yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: I think it's one of the one of the biggest
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: hidden prisons is that we're uh and it's really who
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: are you trying to be accepted by? And what do
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: you think that they have that you don't have inside yourself.
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: And I think when you when you begin to strengthen
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: your sense of who you are as a human being,
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: then you are draw to you what you need. But
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: you won't go out seeking acceptance from any and everybody.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: The book is out.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Right now, and then you invite me to write is
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: yesterday man Shack was clinding me because I take.
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: He took a security personnel in an environment eight thousand, Yo.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: It was wid I don't practice.
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: It was that weird, like I was.
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: I was laughing the whole way as I was thinking
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: about what is going to happen when it's security walk
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: in and it's like literally hundreds of officers that are armed.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, Charlamne, you rolling in here with me? Man?
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: What are you doing?
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't even think about it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: You good in any hood, any prison. When you rolling
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: with me.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I understand that I didn't the practice bad habits. You
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying the movie that's right, that's right,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: But that was stupid. And then just make took his
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: fire when he made him saying and you know he used.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: To be a cop. So I was like, yo, you
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: ever wanted to be a CEO Rikers he was.
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: Like, Jesus, he's also doing your wealth ex bo Yeah.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: No, not this year. I'm a missing man.
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: That's I've done it a couple of years and man,
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: it's one of the best best experience. I really encourage
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: everybody to go check it out, and we're gonna do
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: one on Rikers Island.
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: Gonna make that happen.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: But you know, I'm glad you did bring that up though,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: because even though Shak is not doing it this year,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the years he's done it, it was such an important
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: It was so important to have you there as well
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: as Wallow because to your point, every year that we
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: did it, there was always people there who had either
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: just got out of prison or got people who are
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: in prison right now and we don't understand how that
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: impacts their mental especially brothers that just came home. It's
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: still institutionalized. And they were people like literally saying, y'all
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: need to add this component to the mental wealth x boo,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: because those are the people that are dealing with it.
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: Absolutely absolutely, and I'll definitely be there next year. I'm
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: so sad to be missing this one, but I'm super
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: excited to be out on tour with the book and
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: celebrating man, this book number three. Man, So it's actually surreal,
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: you know, and you know you've written books. You know
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: how hard it is to get a book, book up,
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: book out in the world.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: So a few weeks ago, man, so y'all holding hands,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: you have your hand braided all nights and beat back.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: You know you know the wild thing about about the
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: relationship with Oprahs. We're generally friends, man. And like when
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: I when I first wrote my book, I don't know
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: if I told you the story, but I wrote my
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: first book in solitary and I was like, Yo, anybody
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: want to read this book? And the guy was like, man,
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: this ain't over. Don't nobody want to read that ship?
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: And I was like, damn. I was like that was cold.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: But then I wrote it down as a goal. Opened
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: and read three of my books and invited me to
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: her home multiple times.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: And said that you were her greatest interview ever. Imagine
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: open saying that about you, just my greatest interview ever.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And then we became real friends.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Man.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: So that's that's my girl.
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: And I shout her out all the time and she
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: always reaches out. She I'm sorry, She'll be like congraands
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: on pub day, Shaka. You know, so she's genuinely she's
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: who she said she.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: Is, like, she didn't cook.
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: We didn't know tequila that time we was working. It
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: was it was it was great.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: She likes No.
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: She actually sent me a few bottles though that she
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: she she uped my game on.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: The tequilas years ago. She asked me what my favorite was.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: I told her.
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: She was like, let me send you, let me send
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: you something, and she sent me three bottles with my name.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: Absolutely and I drunk all three of them. Jesus all right.
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: Not at the same time, I figured that we'll pick up.
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: The book How to Be Free Shock.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Proving God to Escaping life' hitting prisoners. Don't forget that part.
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: That's everybody got a hid in prison. For every hidden prison,
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: there is a door, and this book is the key.
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: It's the breakfast club.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Good morning every day, up weak, click your ass up,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: the breakfast club.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: You don't finish for y'all done