Latest / The Jon and Marc Podcast / How AI Creates 8-Figure Closing Arguments

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How AI Creates 8-Figure Closing Arguments · The Jon and Marc Podcast

0:00
Having had the pleasure of working with you and your firm
0:02
for 4-5 years now, we've seen you evolve.
0:06
I like to think of us as sort of a bigger law firm, but we
0:09
maintain a boutique type of feel.
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You have to always be mindful and looking out for new
0:14
opportunities, especially if you want to have a bigger firm, a
0:17
successful firm and 1:00 that's going to potentially continue to
0:20
grow. For those of you watching, this
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is what you want to hang on to. Welcome back to the John and
0:40
Mark podcast. I'm John Robinson, Mark Rio.
0:43
We're here today with a very good friend and one of the best
0:48
lawyers running one of the best law firms in Chicago, like
0:51
Bonomart. Hi everybody, Thanks for having
0:54
me. Happy to be here.
0:55
Absolutely. Mike runs Levin and Perconti,
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which is a you probably will do a better job describing it than
1:02
I do. I I call it catastrophic injury
1:03
and medical malpractice. Yeah, I think that's Baer 25
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lawyers, just a really great group of of people that I've
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been working with for over 20 years now.
1:13
Your firm has a very interesting history and for those of you
1:18
that don't know because we walk by and you don't have your name
1:21
on the building, right, So here we are downtown.
1:24
We ate at RPM Seafood last night.
1:26
We're across the street, did not even realize.
1:28
And here we are now in the offices and your office is
1:31
beautiful. This is one of the most tech
1:33
forward firms that unless you get to walk through these doors
1:36
and see it, you really don't know that this is happening
1:39
here. As a person who came from like
1:40
high tech, this is very like, reminiscent of like a SAS
1:43
company's office, not the traditional like law firm's
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office that we go visit. Well, I think that I'm very
1:49
appreciative that you noticed that.
1:51
We actually we were on the 4th floor of the same building.
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We had about 10,000 square feet. We were growing at the time.
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We've continued to grow and we're sort of just running out
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of space for everybody. So this space, which is the
2:04
floor below became open and we actually there was not a single
2:10
wall, single office. It was just a blank empty space
2:14
and we were able to design it with the, the contractors, the
2:18
architects, you know, the only slight regret is we signed a 10
2:21
year lease in January of 2020 and moved in and then the world
2:24
shut down. But I couldn't be happier with
2:26
how it turned out. And obviously we've been back in
2:29
full time since and it's, it's just a great space, great
2:32
location right on the river. In one sentence, can you
2:35
describe the Levitt and Perconti Law firm?
2:38
You can take 2 sentences if you need.
2:40
I would think the best way to describe us is that we've become
2:46
compartmentalized over the year, but we've maintained
2:49
collegiality in the last 20 years.
2:52
We've grown as a firm, but we thrive on that environment where
2:56
an open door policy, we're constantly talking with each
2:59
other and I think that's what it takes to be successful as a
3:03
trial firm. That was about four sentences.
3:05
But it's hard for me to do that when I've had, when I've been
3:08
here for so long, having. Had the pleasure of working with
3:11
you and your firm for about four or five years now.
3:14
We've seen you evolve. When there is breaking news,
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I'll get a text from Mike and he'll say, hey, what can we do
3:21
about this? Or you guys will find some new
3:24
niche and we'll have a collaborative conversation about
3:27
how do we go and figure out how to get these types of cases.
3:29
Having buy in from the top on being forward thinking as a law
3:34
firm seems to be from the outside looking in extremely
3:37
important. How did those things
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materialize? After we get off the phone and
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have a conversation, say hey, this is how we're going to go
3:43
after this, how does that work its way down to the rest of the
3:46
firm? Yeah.
3:47
I mean, it starts. We talked to you.
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Obviously the marketing, especially in the Chicago area
3:52
is really competitive. But I think wherever you are,
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whatever type of firm you are, if you're going to get into a
3:59
new practice area or if you're going to jump on a breaking
4:02
story that could result in litigation, you have to make
4:06
sure that you have the infrastructure set in place that
4:10
to handle that, to handle those types of cases, whatever those
4:13
cases are. Because that's we have to keep
4:17
in mind, we're representing one client with one story and we
4:22
have a lot of cases. I don't like to think of us as a
4:25
high volume firm because we have and are always willing to
4:29
dedicate the appropriate number of staff that is efficient in
4:33
number training, supervision to handle each of those cases with
4:37
the the care and attention that they need.
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I mean, I like to think of us as sort of a bigger law firm, but
4:42
we maintain a boutique type of feel.
4:45
Question for you on that too. So it's very interesting.
4:48
Like you say you're, you're in a very competitive market in
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Chicago and a lot of these breaking news cases seem to come
4:53
across your doorstep pretty often.
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You guys get your hands on them. In a market where you're not the
4:57
biggest player, you're not the biggest spender, how does that
5:00
keep happening? Well, number one, we're I'm
5:03
curious, so I'm trying to always pay attention.
5:07
That's something I've learned from Steve Levin.
5:09
You have to always be mindful and looking out for new
5:12
opportunities, especially if you want to have a bigger firm, a
5:15
successful firm and 1:00 that's going to potentially continue to
5:18
grow. And you just have to really
5:21
think and read and and just better, better have whatever
5:26
knowledge base that you need to handle these types of cases and
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just always be willing to explore other opportunities.
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What has the growth trajectory looked like post COVID for you
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guys over the past five years and the distribution of
5:39
different case types? So I would say around the time
5:45
of COVID, especially, you know, in the last three to five years,
5:48
historically, we've always handled nursing home abuse and
5:50
neglect cases. We've always handled medical
5:53
malpractice cases. And for reasons that have
5:57
nothing to do with the underlying substantive merits of
6:00
a nursing home abuse and neglect case, we've had to unfortunately
6:03
be a little bit more selective. I mean, we've seen a lot of big
6:07
nursing home chains in Illinois and, and frankly, some of these
6:11
chains have facilities across the country.
6:13
They've gone out of business, they've sold their licenses,
6:17
they've declared for bankruptcy, they're not maintaining
6:20
sufficient liability insurance coverage.
6:22
And it's really, really unfortunate, especially here in
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Illinois, We have a great set of laws that are meant to actually
6:29
encourage nursing home residents to act like private attorney
6:33
generals and bring litigation. But they're sort of rendered
6:37
meaningless when a nursing home or the corporation that operates
6:41
it does not have the financial means or viability to pay those
6:45
claims. And as you probably know and
6:48
have experienced, you know, trial lawyers often have to
6:50
regulate big industries. We've seen it historically in in
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tobacco, cars, all that kind of. Pharmaceutical pharmaceuticals,
6:59
right? So while we are still have a
7:02
very active nursing home practice, you know, I've tried
7:05
to do things outside of our cases.
7:08
A few years ago, I wrote a letter to about 100 state
7:11
representatives and legislators, elder advocacy groups, just sort
7:15
of highlighting the significance of the problem and, and
7:19
explaining to them. And many of them called and
7:21
said, I was, I'm really surprised that there are no laws
7:24
that require a nursing home to maintain any minimum insurance
7:28
coverage. So, you know, I'm, I get some
7:31
traction in that regard. And we've seen some new players
7:34
that thankfully are bringing sufficient insurance coverage to
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the table. So we're still actively
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prosecuting those cases. But because of that shift, we've
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explored some other areas. We've had a really robust birth
7:46
injury practice that's kind of developed over the last four to
7:50
five years. We are handling a significant
7:53
number of Sylla cases that are referred to as group home abuse
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cases. And I guess a common thread, if
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you're just thinking of those 3 case types, nursing home Syllas,
8:03
birth injury cases, is that at the heart of it is we're
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representing a really vulnerable population.
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Whether it's a baby that's still in the womb, A developmentally
8:12
disabled person that's living in a group home or state
8:15
developmental center, or obviously and a nursing home
8:18
resident who has certain medical conditions.
8:21
You know, they've lived a long healthy life off.
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And then the one time that they rely on somebody else for some
8:27
help, they're betrayed basically.
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And in a lot of the times it's not because of a bad staff
8:33
member, a bad caregivers, you do see some extreme examples, but a
8:37
lot of times it's because a corporation is running the
8:40
facility and they're not devoting enough staff.
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They're not of devoting enough resources, training, supervision
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of those staff. And you know, the common theme
8:49
is they're putting profits over people is when you cut the the
8:52
most necessary resource staff, people suffer.
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It's human greed over human need, profits over people.
8:59
Those are the types of themes that you see especially in the
9:02
abuse and neglect cases in nursing homes and group bones.
9:05
That brings up some good questions I had around staff.
9:07
So for example, you mentioned that you, if you're going to
9:09
take care of clients, you want to make sure you have the proper
9:11
staff to adequately serve their needs, right?
9:14
So you built, you have a, you had a very thriving nursing home
9:17
abuse practice, but you still do we know those cases are getting
9:20
less and less due to all the the reasons you listed.
9:23
What is your thought process as a leader of the firm of where to
9:26
properly use your existing staff to find those different issues
9:30
that go into our case steps go after?
9:31
Yeah. So when I mentioned we, we are
9:34
compartmentalized, but we maintain collegiality.
9:37
I'm trying to think about, as are my partners, Steve and John
9:41
and Margaret, we're all trying to think about ways to make our
9:45
staff, whether that's lawyers or staff members, as efficient as
9:48
possible to give the client the best experience.
9:52
So, you know, for example, we have an intake or case
9:56
acquisition department that's staffed with four to five
10:00
different paralegals. One of our partners has a hybrid
10:04
role and she litigates some cases, but she also overseas
10:08
that department. One of the staff members in that
10:11
department, her whole job is to get medical records.
10:14
I have another staff member in that department that guides the
10:18
client from the time that the intake comes in and we make the
10:22
decision to sign the case up. His job is to keep the client
10:26
informed while we're investigating the case, just
10:29
give that client updates because again, we have a a large number
10:33
of cases, but for each of the clients, it's typically that's
10:37
their only case and we have to always keep that in mind.
10:40
We have a 2 lawyers that just process settlements.
10:43
They do everything from lean resolution to all of the
10:46
paperwork that's required because sometimes that's a case
10:49
within a case, especially if you're dealing with a wrongful
10:52
death case. They have two staff members.
10:55
We've trained different lawyers to, to handle different types of
10:58
cases during COVID. Back to one of your earlier
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points, before COVID, we had actually worked with a couple of
11:04
lawyers, nationally known lawyers in the field of birth
11:08
injury litigation. And when we worked with them on
11:11
a couple of cases, we kind of thought to ourselves, huh, maybe
11:14
we should explore a partnership. Were those?
11:16
Cases that, like you guys, originated and then referred out
11:19
originally. Yeah, we, we, we talked to them
11:21
a little bit about the cases. We ended up cutting a deal with
11:24
them to bring them in on a couple of cases.
11:26
Then we thought, you know, bigger picture, maybe there's
11:29
something we could do that we actually formed a new
11:32
partnership during COVID in November of 2020.
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We made of that felon, Steph Cardelli.
11:38
Dove has been prosecuting birth injury cases for 40 plus years.
11:42
His son-in-law, Steph, they were at the same firm together.
11:45
We formed a partnership with them and it's been, you know,
11:48
wildly successful. I mean, now we're prosecuting 80
11:51
cases in combination of cases that are filed and cases that
11:55
were investigating. And we're doing it all over the
11:57
country. I mean, I've tried 4 birth
11:59
injury cases in the last four or five years and I had maybe
12:03
worked on one before. All of those Seth has been on
12:07
and all of them have been big. 8 Figure results including a
12:10
record outside of Cook County for any Met Mail case in in
12:14
Illinois history. Incredible.
12:16
Yeah, this, for those of you watching, this is what you want
12:20
to hang on to, right? The growth story, the
12:22
diversification instead of folding or retracting when you
12:26
face headwinds, right, you look for areas of opportunity.
12:30
It's interesting what you did with Seth and dove in birth
12:33
injury, because you very well could have kept going down the
12:36
road that you were going on before you wound up partnering
12:38
with them, right? This build verse buy mentality.
12:41
You could have built it and it would have been organic.
12:44
But you went out and you said this is an area that we see
12:46
opportunity. We have a way to generate these
12:49
cases because you guys have such a a strong digital presence.
12:52
And then you said, hey, we're going to former partnership,
12:56
we're going to move forward with some of the best attorneys in
13:00
this specific area of practice to help bolster your team.
13:03
Yeah. And, and I, I think it, I mean,
13:05
we actually, I think we hired 5 lawyers in 2020 and 2021.
13:10
But it comes back to one of my earlier points.
13:13
If we're going to really make a push to get these cases, we
13:18
wanted to have the infrastructure set up so that we
13:21
can make the decisions about whether there's a case and if we
13:25
decide to prosecute the case. We have, you know, two of the
13:28
most, they probably have more medical legal knowledge in this
13:31
field than any other people in the country.
13:33
Both have been chairs of the AAJ Birth Injury Litigation Group.
13:37
And it's been really, really exciting.
13:39
But you know, you always have to maintain with the clients from
13:42
the client's perspective or think about it from their
13:44
perspective. Is the consumer making the right
13:48
choice because they're going with the firm that actually has
13:52
and is willing to devote the necessary money and other
13:56
resources to prosecute the cases.
13:59
As you know, these are highly complex medical cases.
14:02
Oftentimes we're getting experts in about 8 to 10 different
14:05
medical disciplines. That's another thing that Seth
14:08
and Dove had brought to the table.
14:09
They know experts all over the country.
14:11
So we're making really, really well informed decisions from the
14:14
get go, whether to investigate, whether to prosecute the case
14:18
and then if so, we have the best experts in the country to
14:21
support the case going forward. I think it's really smart what
14:24
you guys did it. It's interesting too because you
14:26
use your existing staff base and expertise to service that new
14:30
client base. But the cases you guys are are
14:32
servicing are very long cases, right.
14:34
So it's not like you're going from auto accidents in the birth
14:37
injury. You have the infrastructure in
14:39
place to handle a relationship with the client for 345 some of
14:43
these. Birthday.
14:44
Cases can be 10 years long. Yeah, I mean most of them are
14:48
not quite that long. We have had some outliers that
14:51
have gone beyond five years. But yeah, in certain areas of
14:54
practice, you're definitely playing the long game.
14:57
It's not a soft tissue auto case that's going to get resolved
15:00
with maybe a Depp or two, maybe a pre suit settlement demand.
15:04
These are cases that are going to, you're going to have to
15:06
invest not only in the right staff to handle the cases, but
15:10
they're, they're very expensive to prosecute the basis when
15:13
you're getting all these. Experts.
15:15
Right. I mean, we're talking cases that
15:17
go to trial. You know, we may be investing
15:19
300 to $500,000 on those cases and so there's obviously some
15:24
risk there that you've got to be willing to take.
15:26
How do you manage that? Deciding what you're going to
15:29
take on or you know, these are big swings you're taking with
15:32
these cases you like take over like big bets instead of a ton
15:34
of hitting a ton of singles, you know you're going to be looking
15:37
for some home run, a lot more home runs, a lot more triples.
15:39
What is that? I don't want to use a baseball
15:41
analogy, but how do you manage that in your thought process of
15:44
managing cash flow capital? But like when to decide to take
15:47
these big swings? Yeah.
15:48
I mean in, in a the jurisdiction obviously factors into it.
15:53
I mean, we're going to unfortunately have to look at
15:56
jurisdictions where there's no caps on damages.
15:59
So the upside on a case has to be there.
16:02
You know, it's got to be probably in the mid 7 figures.
16:05
We cannot take every single case that comes through the door, but
16:08
we certainly want to be able to give the client the the
16:12
appropriate experience where even if we're not going to be
16:14
able to take the case, they know that we've given it careful
16:18
consideration and maybe we're able to give them some answers
16:22
so that they can move on. Whether we take the case or not.
16:25
The nature of this practice is you're going to be handling more
16:28
catastrophic injury cases that do have big upside, but you
16:33
know, you're going to have to have some patience and be
16:35
willing to take on some risk, especially if you're going to
16:37
maximize the result of a case. You've got to be taking cases
16:40
with the mindset that you may have to try it.
16:43
And really that's with any medical malpractice case.
16:45
That's sort of a common thread. If if you're taking cases in the
16:49
plaintiff's personal injury world, to really maximize the
16:53
value, the other side's got to be knowing that you're willing
16:56
to try the case. If you're not, then you're
16:58
probably going to have to take less than a in a settlement, and
17:02
that's just not in the client's best interest.
17:04
Once you start trying cases, you increase the value of your other
17:08
inventory. As you focused on taking more of
17:11
these birth injury cases, there are still, as you said, a a
17:14
subset of these that you just not willing to take a risk on.
17:18
How do you avoid those clients of yours who you have to
17:22
communicate that to? Not speaking highly of the firm
17:25
after the fact, right? Whether it's reviews or just
17:28
word of mouth. It is a very sensitive issue.
17:31
It it's tough. I, I mean, there's certain
17:33
things that just because of and I don't blame the, the people
17:37
for being upset when we have to tell them we can't take their
17:40
case. But I think the, you know,
17:42
having an efficient process, keeping them well informed and
17:45
really explaining what we are doing or what we reviewed, how
17:49
we came to a certain decision. Sometimes there's procedural
17:53
hurdles, like maybe it's beyond the statute of limitation.
17:56
Maybe they call us from a jurisdiction where you know,
17:59
there's a cap on the non economic damages and the
18:04
economic damages may not be significant enough to justify
18:08
spending that that type of money.
18:10
But the best you can really do in this regard is just be
18:13
respectful of them, make them feel.
18:16
And and this has got to be truthful that you gave it
18:19
careful consideration and and just try to show a little bit of
18:24
empathy. Obviously some authority.
18:27
There is a reason why we're we're coming to this decision
18:30
and that's really the best I think that you can do in that
18:33
regard. But if you write them off, if
18:35
you just send them a letter without talking to them and
18:37
explaining, you're just setting yourself up for bad reviews and
18:41
just, you know, a negative overall experience.
18:43
We have so many clients who come to us saying, what do I do?
18:46
I got a bad review. And at scale they try and
18:49
attempt these review removal services which are expensive
18:53
like. They operate in a very Gray
18:55
space. But really the answer is First
18:57
off, avoid the bad review in the 1st place, right?
18:59
Treat them right in the beginning and if someone leaves
19:01
you a bad review, you contact them.
19:03
If they actually were a client and you had to let them go, like
19:06
just explain the situation. Yeah.
19:07
I mean, I, I've had that experience with you John and you
19:10
know, that's been the approach we've taken.
19:12
I've, I've asked you about should we look at getting some
19:15
review service to have them removed.
19:17
You've appropriately guided me through that decision making
19:20
process and we decided not to do it.
19:22
And I've responded to some of them and I don't know if it
19:25
changed the reviews or not, but I've talked to some of them and
19:29
at least I've left with a feeling that, you know, at least
19:32
they now understand what went behind the decision in the 1st
19:37
place. And, and some of them you, we
19:39
can't change, change them all. And you just got to do more in
19:43
that regard because we all know that they're important to
19:46
increase the number of positive reviews.
19:48
But but it's it's a, a tough, tough thing to have to deal with
19:52
because you're going to do have to deal with it.
19:54
I wouldn't. Consider, I don't think you
19:56
would either consider the nursing home abuse practice area
19:59
as a dying litigation in in any regard.
20:01
But we know, we know what the issues are with private equity
20:04
and coming in and really making it much more about dollars than
20:06
it is about serving. The people who need the help,
20:09
well, not exactly a parallel in other markets, there are similar
20:13
headwinds that are being faced, whether it's in asbestos and
20:16
mesothelioma litigation where you have just a smaller number
20:19
of people every year getting a diagnosis or we went through
20:22
this in Florida where there was tort reform and Georgia, Georgia
20:25
as well, tort, tort reform, which has a much broader impact.
20:29
Or your your traditional personal injury lawyer.
20:31
When faced with something that is an external factor out of
20:35
your control, what is the appropriate response as someone
20:39
who leads a large organization with a lot of moving pieces?
20:43
Speak out about it. I mean, I the example I gave
20:46
earlier, you know, I don't know if the letter I sent is going to
20:50
bring about any change, but it's bringing some awareness to the
20:53
problem. Because I think in listening to
20:55
the question, one of the things you said about the asbestos is
20:58
that if lesser people being diagnosed with it.
21:01
The horrible thing about the area of nursing home abuse and
21:04
neglect that we're dealing with is it's not that people aren't
21:08
being neglected and abused. We are having to turn down cases
21:11
because of nursing homes gone out of business, which that is
21:15
the type of situation where you would hope would raise some
21:18
awareness with people that might have the power to bring about
21:22
some sort of change, whether it's a change in the law,
21:25
whether it's a change in how it's decided that a corporation
21:29
gets a, a nursing home license. But you got to talk about it.
21:32
I mean, I think it's one of our jobs, not as trial lawyers, not
21:35
just to prosecute cases, but you're trying to bring about
21:39
change in different industries. And if you don't speak up about
21:43
it, then you're guaranteeing that you're not going to do
21:46
anything about it. Nothing's going to change, you
21:48
know, from from a strictly business perspective.
21:51
It's exploring new business opportunities, new partnerships,
21:56
new areas of litigation, but always being mindful about
21:59
whether or not you've got the right people in place to handle
22:02
those cases. I think that's kind of the best
22:05
we can do. And then just more globally
22:07
support the the people that are running for office that you
22:10
think are going to advocate for victims of corporate malfeasance
22:14
or medical malpractice, abuse, neglect, and that are going to
22:17
be a voice for those consumers when it comes time to talk about
22:22
things like tort reform. I mean, it's a very competitive
22:25
market in Illinois, but we've got also a a huge network of
22:30
lawyers that are doing things both in Illinois and nationally
22:35
to to try to stop tort reform from happening in our state then
22:39
nationally. But something we all have to be
22:41
concerned with all, all the time, the preparation.
22:45
Advocacy. I think the advocacy piece is
22:47
something that has not done enough in the industry.
22:50
There are some players that are are outspoken that there's if
22:53
you look at when things are coming through, you don't see a
22:55
ton of people actually trying to make substantial change in their
22:58
markets in the region and their wherever they are to make like
23:02
in nursing home. Like I recently had my
23:04
grandmother in a nursing home facility.
23:05
It was a nice one and the standard of care there was poor.
23:09
For a nice nursing home. There's like, I can't imagine if
23:12
you're have a loved 1 going to a like not well run one, the
23:17
issues that come up and with a huge ageing population, if you
23:20
don't advocate for the industry to change, there's about to be a
23:24
huge amount of people's family members that might be negatively
23:27
impacted over the next 1020 years.
23:29
Sure. I mean you just reminded me of a
23:32
couple things. 1 is, I get that question a lot.
23:35
What, what nursing home should I?
23:38
And, and honestly, I mean, someone called me in the last
23:41
couple of months and I said, look, I'm going to give you a
23:45
recommendation, but it's more deductive reasoning.
23:49
Like I'll look at the nursing homes in this particular area
23:53
where you're looking. And I'll tell you the ones that
23:55
I haven't had a lot of experience with.
23:57
And usually that's a good sign, but it's, that's, it's
24:01
unfortunate. I mean, and the other thing I do
24:03
is it's been a little while, but there's an advocacy group that
24:06
meets at a library sometimes on Saturday or Sunday mornings.
24:12
And I was asked to participate and talk to these people.
24:15
And, and, you know, once in a while they may call me with a
24:18
case, but I, I don't really care.
24:19
I'm not doing it for that. It's truly to try to educate
24:23
family members with loved ones in a nursing home about what
24:27
they can do to select a nursing home and what they can do when
24:31
their loved 1 is in a nursing home to try to mitigate the
24:35
likelihood of something bad happening.
24:37
So I'll talk about the resident care plan conferences and each
24:42
step of the process that needs to happen in a nursing home, how
24:45
you can be involved in that process.
24:47
Because the. Honestly, for someone who's
24:49
thinking about putting someone in a nursing home, a loved one
24:52
in a nursing home, and it's not like you're actively thinking
24:55
about it or often times it becomes necessary because
24:58
unfortunately, yeah. But people feel guilty about it.
25:01
And I try to tell them you can't feel guilty about it.
25:04
It's there are situations where you're just not equipped to care
25:08
for somebody on your own without professional help.
25:10
That's what they're supposed to be there for.
25:12
But that trust often gets betrayed.
25:14
So I try to talk to people about, you know, every time
25:18
someone goes in a nursing home, they're, there's a process that
25:20
has to happen and you should be involved in it.
25:22
There has to be an assessment, a care plan, communication of the
25:26
care plan, implementation of the care plan, reassess.
25:30
And then the process starts again.
25:31
You try new things and boy, that sounds pretty basic, right?
25:35
But it doesn't happen. And that's why we have these
25:38
cases because there's a breakdown in these in some step
25:41
of the process, often multiple steps.
25:44
And it leads to unfortunate things happening, and it's still
25:47
happening all the time. Your practice areas wouldn't
25:51
traditionally lend themselves to an abundance of use of
25:54
technology or forward thinking, right?
25:57
You look at a case, it's going to take 345 years to develop.
26:01
There's a lot of manual research.
26:02
However, since the advent of AI not that long ago, you have been
26:07
very, very active. You just told me this morning,
26:09
hey, we just signed a contract with Supio.
26:11
We're going to start using Supio.
26:12
You guys have used Lidify for years.
26:14
What are some of the ways in the day-to-day operations of the
26:18
firm that you guys are using technology that someone may not
26:21
traditionally think is happening here?
26:22
Oh boy, it's one of my favorite topics.
26:25
I think it was around. I just tried a case in Goals
26:29
County in March of 23. It was that spring where ChatGPT
26:34
really started to become a little bit more mainstream.
26:37
And I just, I jumped on it. I started talking about it at
26:41
lawyer meetings and it took a little, I guess from the
26:45
lawyer's perspective. I, I was, I was intentionally
26:49
repeating myself because I knew it was going to take a little
26:51
time before people started to buy into it.
26:54
Then it got to the point where I just would walk into someone's
26:57
office, say hi, what are you working on, and then try to
26:59
think of a way they could do it faster.
27:01
The first example was that the lawyer meeting after I started
27:05
exploring with it, we meet every Monday as a group, the lawyers
27:08
and we just talked about different issues that are going
27:11
on, whether it's in the in the courthouse, we strategize about
27:15
cases, we evaluate cases. And I had taken the train this
27:19
particular Monday and walking to the train station and I recalled
27:24
one of the cases that was presented at the lawyer meeting
27:27
and I'm on my way to the train station.
27:29
I prompted that GPT and I said greatest settlement to man.
27:33
You know, that sounds basic now, but at the time it was like,
27:36
wow, So it, it does it and then I show it to the lawyer that
27:40
presented the case in honestly, you've got to obviously edit.
27:44
We've all heard the horror stories.
27:46
Don't let don't cite cases from it and it'll hallucinate the
27:50
cases and things like that. But it was unbelievable.
27:53
And I, I've just been a everyday user basically of ChatGPT, both
27:58
professionally and in my personal life.
28:00
Frankly, all the time. I, I, I just think from a idea
28:04
gathering makes us so much more efficient.
28:08
It, it's like having a basically a genius to brainstorm with and
28:14
now we've, so I think of it in two ways.
28:16
We've, I think I've probably told you, John, for the last
28:20
couple of years, I really would like basically ChatGPT, but that
28:25
operates with or analyzes our firm's proprietary data And I
28:30
demoed a lot of different products.
28:32
We landed on Supio recently, you know, entered into a contract
28:36
with them and it's not perfect, but it is, it should make all of
28:41
us significantly more efficient. And it's every step of the
28:46
process from the intake process to it answers discovery, it
28:51
writes discovery, it suggests discovery, it analyzes medical
28:55
bills and liens. So that's kind of more the, I'll
28:58
call it the task oriented use of, of an AI platform.
29:02
And then there's also a part of it similar to what I was.
29:06
I used ChatGPT a lot for. There's just like the
29:09
brainstorming. Give me ideas for the
29:11
deposition. Here are the anticipated
29:14
defenses in a case. Can you give me some suggestions
29:17
as to how I can refute those defenses, which we should be
29:20
able to do as plaintiffs orders because we get to select our
29:22
cases. It's different than insurance
29:24
defense lawyer. They don't have that luxury
29:26
though. Every single defense that you
29:29
hear in a plaintiff's Pi case, there should be some logical
29:32
fallacy within that defense that you should be able to refute.
29:35
But the ones the players, lawyers that are most
29:37
successful, spend a lot of time on that part of the preparation.
29:41
If you're getting ready for a depth, there's the knowing the
29:43
facts, which is obviously important, But what I've
29:46
experienced that I may be digressing into a different
29:49
topic that's somewhat related is plaintiffs lawyers don't always
29:53
spend the appropriate amount of time brainstorming role-playing.
29:57
What am I going to do? If this nurse or this doctor
30:00
says this, then how am I going to refute that?
30:02
And we get, we have a tendency to get a little too scripted,
30:05
but I have these case files within ChatGPT now where I
30:10
haven't disclosed, you know, any medically sensitive information,
30:13
but I've given it the basic facts of the case, the medical
30:17
issues. And I have like 60-70 page
30:20
outlines that just keep getting updated depending on which
30:23
medical discipline I'm going to be deposing next.
30:25
And it's like I have a buddy basically that I'm talking to
30:29
and preparing with it. It's interesting, I haven't
30:32
heard a lot of lawyers talk about using AI creatively for
30:34
brainstorming. Everyone thinks of it as like,
30:36
hey, in the legal space, like document generation, research,
30:40
case law, but it's like honest, that's how I use it.
30:43
It's like, hey, I want to figure out something.
30:46
I have a thread, I'm going to put it in there and then that
30:48
GBT is going to help me pull that thread to get to where I
30:51
want to go and use it creatively.
30:52
I think that's super interesting.
30:54
I even like a lot of times I'll be like, I want to do something
30:56
with AI, ask out GBT. I want to do this with AI.
30:59
How do I do it? And then it tells me and then I
31:00
go do it. But it's like it's an
31:02
underutilized thing for preparation.
31:04
I think it's just genius. We were one of the birth injury
31:06
cases that settled the night before closing argument, but my
31:10
partner was going to do the damages part of it and for a
31:13
long time. I think I'm not alone in this.
31:16
But plaintiffs lawyers can struggle a little bit when
31:19
trying to convey that the intangibles, the things like
31:23
pain and suffering, are actually more valuable than the economic
31:28
damages in a case like the medical bills.
31:32
The medical bills and those types of economics, a lot of
31:35
times we think are easier for the jury to hold on to because
31:38
it's concrete. We could put a number on it.
31:40
It's backed up, you know, to there's a bill.
31:42
Here, Yeah, yeah. But I truly believe that it's
31:46
the non economics that are more valuable.
31:48
So I put this concept into this birth injury case and I'll give
31:53
you one example what it came up with.
31:54
Literally I got goosebumps because it's set it more
31:57
succinctly than I've ever thought about it in my life.
32:01
It was something like reimbursing the plaintiff or
32:04
providing for medical expenses may provide a wheelchair or the
32:08
necessary physical therapy, but it'll never replace the feeling
32:12
that the child would have had of dancing on her own 2 feet.
32:16
And it did this with every single injury to the point where
32:21
I I was just blown away. I was almost upset we settled
32:24
the case because I wanted to hear and see the jury's reaction
32:28
to this. It was unreal.
32:31
But I think in the early days, it's still the early days
32:35
obviously. The early day two years ago.
32:36
In the early days two years ago, but what I, one of the things
32:39
that I, you know, coming back to this more bigger concept that
32:42
we're talking about is, you know, embracing technology is I
32:47
think of critical importance if you really want to have a, a
32:50
successful firm. It's not going away.
32:52
Not at all. And I think the firms that get
32:54
ahead of it are going to be really successful.
32:57
But what I was worried about, I think like other people, is AI.
33:01
Is it going to stifle curiosity or deep thought?
33:06
And what I have found it's that the, it's the most curious, it's
33:10
the most creative people are the ones that are actually getting
33:13
the most use out of these different software's like
33:17
ChatGPT, like Supio. I mean, the prompts that you,
33:21
you just keep thinking and new things all the time.
33:24
Like one of those basic ones that I've asked is I'll talk it
33:28
to ChatGPT about a case. I'll say this sounds so simple.
33:32
Is there any other information that you would need from me
33:36
about the facts of the case to give me a better analysis?
33:39
And it comes up with stuff, but it's, it's just a topic that I,
33:43
I get really excited about that I, all of my lawyers probably
33:47
get sick of me talking about. But I'm not going to stop
33:50
because I think it's really, really important and it's just
33:52
going to make us better and better.
33:54
And you owe it to the clients to utilize whatever resources,
33:57
whether that's a community or a list of of trial lawyers or it's
34:02
AI or it's Lex, whatever it is, you've got to take advantage of
34:06
what's what's out there. Yeah, you can either use it as a
34:08
crutch or use it as like a springboard for innovation to
34:11
just move faster and be better. Right, exactly.
34:14
And I think we're we're doing that.
34:15
So yeah, it's exciting. I think so.
34:18
I think Levin and Perconti is definitely a law firm that other
34:21
law firms should look to as how they should be running their
34:24
operation. Yeah, I.
34:25
And I, I really appreciate that. And, and you know, one of the
34:29
reasons why is that I think we're always looking to improve,
34:33
whether it's as substantively as trial lawyers.
34:36
I still watch really great trial lawyers give talks.
34:40
I read their books. I'm trying to learn management.
34:44
I mean, that's a new role for me in the last, you know, 5-6 years
34:48
or so. And I just want to keep getting
34:51
better. And I think that's what happens
34:52
when you've those in a profession that you really like
34:56
that it's kind of fun to continue to learn and, and, and
34:59
get better and better at whatever you're trying to, to
35:01
do. Yeah.
35:02
How, how do you appropriately balance those responsibilities
35:06
between people and actually being like the main manager of
35:10
the firm, litigating cases yourself and working with the
35:13
trial attorneys and then also being at the forefront of
35:15
technology and marketing? Yeah, and also making sure the
35:18
firm's making money and can pay its bills.
35:21
Yeah. I, I am getting better and
35:24
better at figuring out what data I need to and a lot of this is
35:29
based on conversations you and I have had and working together
35:32
figuring out what data I should be tracking.
35:35
Frankly, I learn a lot when I talk to some of the bigger
35:38
marketing firms that I know maybe not handling the cases but
35:42
refer them to us learning what they are looking at.
35:45
I sort of will adopt that type of model, trusting that the
35:49
people that are handling more of the day-to-day litigation, the
35:53
discovery and things like that, you know, giving them the
35:56
authority of the autonomy to do that kind of stuff, but always
36:00
making sure they realize that we don't expect them to do it
36:03
alone. I mean, that's why we meet every
36:04
Monday. I have a simple Google Sheet
36:07
that actually I created during COVID when we weren't in the
36:09
office as much where it's just easier to just for them to just
36:13
quickly sign up. So I'll look up my look at my
36:15
calendar every week and I'll block off time for the lawyers
36:18
to meet with me. But for some reason, it's just
36:21
easier than sending a calendar invite.
36:23
I don't know why, through Outlook, but it's easier.
36:25
All they have to do is put their name and they know that I
36:28
monitor that and that I'll be there, be in my office or we're
36:31
going to have a Zoom. But it's just trying to promote
36:36
a culture of positivity. I have very little tolerance for
36:40
negativity. We don't do everything perfectly
36:42
all the time, but I expect everyone in the firm to respect
36:46
each other and have positive attitudes.
36:48
I think that's really, really important because I think
36:51
sometimes there's stress, but it's really pressure.
36:54
It's, you may feel stressed because we're, it's a high
36:57
pressure type of area. I mean, I felt it and I'm
36:59
getting ready to give a closing argument on a, on a big case.
37:03
I, I realize I'm, I'm feeling a little bit of pressure, but you
37:06
got to just remind yourself, draw from past experiences that
37:10
you can handle it and that we're here for each other.
37:12
So I, I think that's a big part of it.
37:15
I mean, my role is evolved a little bit over the last 10
37:18
years where I still am active in litigating, you know, bigger
37:23
cases. I'm always going to try to jump
37:25
on big trials, things like that. But I'm also heavily invested in
37:31
terms of my time spent looking for new areas of business,
37:34
improving upon the areas that we've historically handling and
37:38
putting ourselves out there. Because if you're going to do
37:41
that, I think we are a appropriate choice for the
37:44
consumer because you think about it like a digital consumer.
37:48
Somebody sees a TV ad. I mean, there's tons of lawyers
37:51
that are saying we've recovered hundreds of millions and
37:54
billions of dollars. And what does that really mean
37:57
to the consumer, though? We do that obviously because of
38:01
the competitiveness of the marketplace.
38:03
But behind the scenes, we're trying to set ourselves up for
38:06
so that they have that boutique firm so that they want to feel
38:09
that they're almost entering into a contract for life because
38:13
of how we've treated them. We're never going to be top of
38:16
mind necessarily, even after we've handled the case.
38:20
But if someone says to you like, you know, I need a good dentist,
38:24
he may say you might want to try my person or you're going to say
38:27
you got to go to my guy. I want our current and former
38:31
clients to feel if they get asked that question from a
38:34
family member, a friend, someone in their circle, they say you've
38:38
got a call within a perconic. This is how they treated me.
38:41
This is what they did for me. That's our goal, basically, is
38:44
to make them feel like we guided them through a very traumatic
38:48
emotional time they either had when underwent some sort of
38:51
catastrophic injury. They lost the loved one, and
38:55
they turned to us to basically be their voice.
38:57
And we treated them in a way that they trusted us, they
39:00
respected us, and they'd recommend us to anyone that
39:03
needed someone like us in the future.
39:06
Yeah. What?
39:07
I see from the outside looking in are two things that you don't
39:11
see at a lot of firms. 1 is the incredible transparency
39:15
throughout the organization, right?
39:16
You have No Fear at all to just give me a call and say, hey,
39:20
John, what is going on with this?
39:22
And we'll have a conversation about it.
39:24
We'll do it on a call with the team too.
39:26
And you see that behavior become permeating throughout the
39:30
organization. The other is the one you just
39:32
touched on, which is you're still litigating cases, you are
39:36
hands on dealing with some of the marketing stuff.
39:39
You are testing out AI, you are, I mean, Steve Levin is over here
39:44
in the other room doing a deposition, right, right.
39:46
Like you guys are in the trenches with your team.
39:48
And I think that encourages a level of respect that you guys
39:53
are not just saying, hey, you do this, you do this, this is my
39:56
idea and you go and execute it. You're fighting along with them.
39:59
So it's it's very commendable. As I said, you guys run a great
40:03
operation. Very much appreciate you sitting
40:05
down with Mark and I today for this conversation.
40:08
Thanks for having us here. Your beautiful office.
40:09
This is fantastic. Had a great time.
40:11
I'm glad you guys are in Chicago when some of the best weather
40:15
we've had all year. I really appreciate and respect
40:18
what you guys are doing and I'm honored and humbled to be a a
40:22
part of it. You guys have had some really
40:24
top, top guests in the early stages of the podcast.
40:28
I would encourage people to watch because you guys have had
40:31
some great names and really successful trial lawyers all all
40:35
across the country. I think it's a great idea.
40:38
Awesome. Thanks, Mike.
40:39
Appreciate it. Thanks guys.
40:40
Appreciate it. Thank you very much for having
40:42
me. You're.
40:42
Fantastic. Thank you, I appreciate it.