Latest / Future Christian / From Pulpit to Platform: Alexander Lang’s Journey

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From Pulpit to Platform: Alexander Lang’s Journey · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
0:10
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
0:36
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
0:47
Today, Martha Tatarnic again welcomes Alexander Lang
0:50
to the show. Martha had a great episode with him
0:53
back in season 14. We'll put a link in the show.
0:56
Notes Alex is a former PCUSA
0:59
pastor who worked in church ministry for 20
1:01
years. He has since left the
1:04
church to pursue a technology business that is
1:07
designed to help people form meaningful relationships.
1:10
Alex's interests include independent film,
1:13
electronic music, and deep conversation with people
1:16
who question, doubt and want to
1:19
dig into the most complex issues we face as
1:22
humans. When he's not working on
1:25
books, podcasts, or the restorative faith
1:27
movement, Alex enjoys spending time with his wife
1:30
and two sons. One more thing.
1:33
Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever podcast
1:36
app you're listening on and share this episode with a
1:39
friend. Thanks and enjoy the
1:41
episode.
1:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
1:52
the co host of this podcast, Martha
1:55
Tatarnic. Today I am having a conversation
1:57
with someone who is becoming quite well known to our
2:00
future Christian community, Alexander
2:03
Lang. Alex, you're becoming a bit
2:06
of a fixture on this podcast and I'm so
2:09
grateful for that being the case because it is always
2:12
such a, uh, delight
2:14
and a uh, time full of insight when I get
2:17
to be able to talk with you.
2:20
>> Alexander Lang: Oh, thank you. Wow, that's really
2:22
kind as an introduction. No, I'm really happy to
2:25
be here. It's been really nice to be able to
2:28
uh, consistently come back and talk to you all,
2:32
uh, and to be part of your, to be able to speak to your
2:34
audience.
2:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure. Now, just a, ah, refresher to
2:38
our listeners or to give some context to
2:41
new people tuning in. Um,
2:44
Alex, we've had a few really interesting
2:46
conversations on past Future Christian
2:49
episodes. The first time we talked was about a
2:52
year ago I think, and it was after
2:55
your choice to leave parish
2:57
ministry, an article that you had
3:00
written about your reasons for leaving parish ministry
3:04
going viral. And uh,
3:06
I felt quite privileged to be able
3:09
to talk with you in the midst of
3:12
all of the many media requests that you
3:15
were fielding at that time. Um, then
3:18
we talked earlier this year about your new
3:21
book, Restorative spirituality for the
3:23
21st century rationalist.
3:27
So why don't you catch us up
3:30
on what is going on for you right now. I know that you
3:32
do have a few creative irons in the
3:35
fire, so can you just, uh, tell
3:38
our listeners what's getting you out of bed in the morning these
3:41
days or keeping you up at night?
3:44
>> Alexander Lang: Sure. No, no, no. Yeah. The last time we spoke, as you
3:47
said, I had just published Restorative, uh,
3:49
Beauty. And as you can appreciate, because
3:52
you're working on a book right now, uh, it feels good to
3:55
have it behind you. So when you're in the middle of it, it's just so much
3:58
time and effort goes into that. And so to be
4:01
freed of that, uh, was just
4:04
a wonderful thing. I was able to kind of turn my attention back to
4:07
my podcast, which is the Restorative Faith Podcast, which
4:10
is a little bit different from. From the way that you
4:13
all run yours, which is basically conversations,
4:16
uh, one on one for the most part. And with
4:19
mine, it's more of a highly edited kind of thing. The
4:22
best analogy is actually Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history
4:25
is kind of the way that I modeled it after, like, an
4:27
episode. Takes me about 50 hours to put it together.
4:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my God.
4:30
>> Alexander Lang: Uh, uh, where. Yeah, because I'm like, I have a whole team.
4:33
I have, like, a team of reporters who work with me, and so they go out and
4:36
they find these interviews. And so to
4:39
actually get it together and to have a
4:41
full, full episode, it takes quite a lot of time. So I dropped
4:44
my whole season all at once. But we've been working for two years on
4:47
season four, which deals with the conflict between,
4:50
uh, science and religion and, uh, science
4:53
and Christianity in particular. Yeah, it's a big one.
4:56
My podcast focuses on why people are leaving the church,
4:59
and science and religion are a huge one. So I've been
5:02
waiting a couple of years to be able to do this, and I have some
5:05
amazing guests, uh, for the season, so
5:08
I've been working on that. But then, of course, the other
5:10
thing that I've been working on for the last several
5:13
months is a, uh, YouTube series called
5:15
Quoro.
5:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yes. And that is what we're specifically
5:19
going to be talking about today. But I
5:22
just can't help to weigh in a
5:25
little bit about your podcast and, uh, to say
5:28
I'm very excited to hear that
5:30
season. Coming, uh, to the,
5:33
to the podcast universe, there. There probably
5:36
is, like, some analysis that you could do about
5:39
various personality types and what sort
5:42
of podcasts we gravitate toward putting
5:45
together. Because I do think that there are elements of
5:48
your personality that I have seen emerge across
5:51
our conversations that
5:53
suggest that you like to, you know,
5:56
have, um, some,
5:59
some control over the details of
6:01
how, of how
6:04
an episode comes together.
6:06
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, uh, my wife always says that
6:08
if I can make it harder, I will. And so, I
6:11
mean, I hope that when people listen to it, they feel the love and care
6:14
that went into it, because that's
6:17
super important to me. And
6:20
I want to say I really appreciate
6:23
podcasts like these, where, like, it's a whole
6:26
different kind of thing to find people to have them
6:29
on and to have these conversations like you all do. Those are so important
6:32
because the consistency of those conversations, they matter,
6:35
you know, whereas not everybody can wait two years
6:37
to put out a couple of episodes like I'm doing.
6:40
So I think that this is just as important, equally as important
6:43
to what I do.
6:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think both are valuable. It's
6:48
just sort of interesting, uh, the different
6:50
approaches and the different benefits of
6:54
each approach. I think, um, is pretty
6:56
cool. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's going to be a lot
6:59
of fun to be able to check that out as well.
7:02
So let's talk about Kokoro, though.
7:05
Um, when you were first sharing
7:08
this idea with me, you said
7:10
that it was very much influenced
7:14
by the work of Mr. Rogers
7:16
neighborhood and, uh, that you grew up with
7:19
that being a, a big influence in
7:22
your life. I grew up in Canada and,
7:25
uh, Mr. Dress up was sort of more of the show
7:28
that I watched growing up. So I don't, I actually,
7:31
like, don't know that I ever watched a
7:33
Mr. Rogers episode when I was a kid.
7:36
Why don't you share with, um, with
7:39
our listeners what it was that struck
7:42
you as a child about that show?
7:45
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a. Ah, it's. You'll have to tell me about Mr. Dress up
7:48
sometime. I don't, I don't know what that is.
7:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a Canadian.
7:53
>> Alexander Lang: Like many children in the United States who grew up on
7:56
public broadcasting television at, uh, PBS,
7:59
we, you know, you had access to
8:03
Mr. Rogers neighborhood, which was part of their programming,
8:06
uh, in the morning hours. And particularly if you only had a
8:09
couple of channels like we did, you know, we, we literally had an antenna.
8:12
When I was growing up in the 80s, we, uh, didn't have cables, so that
8:14
was, that was one of the things you had access to.
8:17
And so I watched this program every
8:20
single day, probably from the time I was
8:23
probably two, uh, till I was about five or
8:26
six. And, uh, if you
8:29
don't know much about Mr. Rogers, what's fascinating
8:32
about him is that he. He was one of
8:35
the first people ever to speak to
8:37
kids in a way that they could really
8:40
understand. But he didn't pander to children. I think
8:43
that's really important to say because he would talk
8:45
about issues that really impacted their lives. I mean, he talked about
8:48
conflict and sadness and anger,
8:51
divorce, death, violence. I mean, even war. I mean, he
8:54
talked about big, heavy things that were going
8:56
on. And I think it's something that's important to
8:59
point out about Fred Rogers, which I love, is that he was a
9:02
Presbyterian pastor. So he
9:05
attended, uh, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
9:08
and was ordained as a minister in
9:10
1963 to
9:13
serve people through television programming.
9:15
Ultimately, he chose to serve children specifically.
9:19
Uh, and what I love about Mr. Rogers, if you. If you really
9:22
dig down into it, he never explicitly discussed theology on
9:25
the show, ever. Right. But underneath every
9:28
one of his shows was a beautiful
9:30
theology of love and
9:33
acceptance. And so back in
9:35
February, I was perusing YouTube,
9:38
as we do, and I came across an
9:41
old episode of his show. I hadn't watched it in quite some
9:44
time, and I got to the end of the show, and he said
9:47
he has his famous words. He would say every time, which
9:50
is, you've made this day a special day by just
9:53
your being you. There's no person in the
9:56
whole world like you, and I like you
9:59
just the way you are. So he would say that at the end
10:02
of every. Every program he did. And
10:05
I'm, um, not going to lie. There were tears in my eyes, like, hearing that
10:08
again, because, you know, as an adult,
10:10
I can't remember the last time someone said to
10:13
me, I like you just the way you are.
10:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow.
10:17
>> Alexander Lang: And so then I got to thinking about it.
10:20
You know, wouldn't it be nice if there was
10:23
someone to remind us that we're enough like a Mr.
10:26
Rogers neighborhood for adults, where every
10:29
so often we could come together and be reminded
10:31
that no matter the difficulties we're facing in our lives,
10:34
we are loved and worthy just as we are.
10:37
And so, for me, I kind of thought about that, and I was like, you know,
10:40
personally, I think we need to hear that message
10:43
as much as we can now more than ever?
10:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you feel
10:50
like you were
10:52
clocking as a kid that,
10:54
um, there was a faith dimension to
10:57
what he was saying? It's really
11:00
like, as an adult that you've been
11:03
able to kind of Revisit.
11:06
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah.
11:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: No.
11:07
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. I had no clue at the time. And in
11:10
fact, I didn't even know about that until I was
11:13
at seminary that he. That that was part
11:16
of his. That that's who he was. And so it's
11:19
only in retrospect, looking back at it and kind of
11:22
seeing the show, I was like, oh, my gosh. And. And,
11:24
uh. And yeah, it had a huge impact on
11:27
me. In fact, at one point, I think this is a really
11:30
fascinating thing. When I was really digging into my
11:33
theology, what I truly believed. I went and I read about
11:36
Fred Rogers theology. And to be honest,
11:38
they. They mirror each other. So even though he
11:41
never once used the word Jesus, he never once used the word
11:44
God, his theology, for the.
11:47
By and large became my theology.
11:50
Which is. Which shows you how effective it was.
11:53
Yeah.
11:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's amazing. That is amazing.
11:56
Like, to be able to. To line that
11:59
up so clearly. Wow.
12:02
Um, so, I mean, we're
12:05
always, as faith leaders, we're always
12:09
just trying to noodle
12:12
our way through how we communicate
12:15
faith in a world that
12:18
sometimes seems a little apathetic or even
12:21
resistant or, um,
12:24
combative toward faith.
12:26
>> Alexander Lang: Um.
12:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um. What? Like,
12:29
do you think that there is, uh, a
12:32
message for Christian leaders in how
12:35
Fred Rogers went about doing this?
12:38
>> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. So, you know what's interesting
12:41
about Fred Rogers, I, uh, think this is. This is a fascinating
12:44
element of who he was, which is that
12:47
when he pursued television programming for children
12:50
as his ministry, the gatekeepers in the
12:53
Presbyterian Church didn't fully understand what he was
12:56
trying to do. Like, they kind of felt he was out there.
12:59
Like, they. They were like, uh, okay, I guess you can do this. But
13:02
they didn't. The. The only analogy they had at the time were
13:05
these charismatic preachers on television. So I think it was
13:08
really hard for them to envision exactly how his
13:10
television show was going to work. Or for that matter, how
13:13
would he be a ministry of any kind.
13:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. Uh, right.
13:17
>> Alexander Lang: Today we can look back on that. Right? And we can say to ourselves, oh, my
13:20
gosh, there's such a genius behind what he was
13:23
doing. The problem is, is that he was thinking on a
13:25
completely different level than most pastors.
13:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
13:28
>> Alexander Lang: It's, uh, like for most pastors, their understanding of sharing their theology
13:31
and faith is centered in traditional methods. So, for example, you
13:34
know, the weekly sermon or teaching a class
13:37
or a mission trips or pastoral care. And I don't
13:40
think. Don't get me wrong, like, I don't want to, you know,
13:43
demean any of that. Those methods are tried and true and they still represent how
13:46
the vast majority of pastors approach their
13:49
ministry. Mhm. But I think with the
13:52
erosion of the traditional church,
13:55
these methodologies, from my perspective, are becoming
13:58
less effective simply because they
14:01
rely upon people being heavily invested in
14:04
their local church. That said, even for the people who
14:07
are invested, the format of the service
14:09
doesn't conform to the way we consume information these
14:12
days. So just like for example,
14:16
the weekly Sunday sermon, so our
14:19
attention spans have become so short.
14:22
The idea of listening to a person speak
14:24
at them for 15, 20,
14:27
30 minutes, however long it is, it just doesn't make sense
14:30
anymore. And so even if you're super charismatic
14:33
and a great communicator, it's just not
14:36
the way that most people consume information
14:39
any longer. So I think what Fred
14:41
Rogers demonstrates is that
14:44
non traditional methods of communicating theology and faith, they
14:47
can be super effective, but you
14:50
have to be willing to think outside the box. I mean,
14:53
he looked at the culture of his day and time and
14:56
he saw this burgeoning medium of
14:58
television and he realized there was this massive
15:01
gap. Nobody was really trying to meet. Children
15:04
where they, where they are, right? Mhm.
15:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
15:07
>> Alexander Lang: But perhaps more importantly, Fred Rogers
15:09
understood that,
15:12
you know, by impacting them
15:15
and imprinting them with these theological ideas at a
15:18
young age, you're laying a really critical
15:20
foundation of thought that can follow a child
15:24
for the rest of his or her life. And as we talked about, I'm, I'm
15:27
a great example of this, uh,
15:30
in my own life that he was able to do this.
15:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, when you
15:36
share those closing words from each of
15:39
his episodes, it does sound like a
15:42
very Christian message. It sounds
15:45
like a message that, you know, we
15:47
hope people walk away with from
15:50
our Sunday services. So, yeah, it's
15:53
quite brilliant and seems like very ahead of its
15:56
time. Let's just put a pin in. There's
15:59
a few things I want to follow up with about,
16:02
um, that
16:04
idea of adapting our message to
16:07
new media. Um, so I want to
16:10
circle back to that eventually. But I
16:12
want to talk about Kokoro specifically
16:15
because, um, it isn't just a
16:18
remake of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. You're
16:21
not working for PBS and
16:24
you're, um, Vision isn't for
16:27
children. So,
16:29
uh, why don't you sketch out for
16:31
us, um, how you're structuring
16:34
Kokoro.
16:35
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I wanted to create a show that
16:38
talks about important issues that we face
16:40
as adults. And
16:44
I think that's the driving force
16:47
is that there's always a
16:49
theme that drives every episode. So trust, uh,
16:53
anxiety, curiosity, Regret, doubt.
16:56
So it's, it's these, these themes that, that are
16:59
universal to every single person. Anybody can relate to them. So
17:02
that's really important where, where we start, right?
17:04
And then what I did was I broke
17:07
every show into four segments. So like Mr.
17:10
Rogers Neighborhood, I wanted the segments to be
17:13
predictable. So every episode follows
17:16
the same pattern.
17:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
17:17
>> Alexander Lang: Um, so the first segment always starts with
17:20
a story that establishes the theme. And
17:23
I always tell this story sitting in my green chair in my
17:26
living room. And this is similar to how Fred would begin his
17:29
program in his living room, uh, every show.
17:32
And so, so I tell this story that establishes the
17:35
theme. And then the second segment is usually an
17:37
interview that takes place in my kitchen.
17:40
So this is often where Mr. Rogers would,
17:43
uh, interview his guests. You know, he'd bring people in, he'd be, oh, somebody's at the
17:46
door and he'd open the door and he'd bring them in and come on in. And sometimes
17:49
he'd talk to him in his living room, other times he'd take him to the kitchen and have a
17:52
meal. So what I always do is I prepare
17:55
a meal or a snack or a dessert that
17:58
reflects the topic of the show, uh,
18:01
that we're talking about. So, um, I want to play a
18:04
short clip for you of one of these interviews and just to give
18:06
you the backstory on it. This particular episode is called
18:10
Wounds, and it's about the physical and
18:12
psychological injuries we incur as children and how
18:15
they manifest into adulthood.
18:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
18:17
>> Alexander Lang: And so, so I'm Speaking with, uh, Dr.
18:20
Kenyatta Fletcher, talking about how the
18:23
people she works with, how these wounds can manifest in
18:26
their lives. In the program that you work in, you know,
18:29
where you are right now with the patients who you see, how many of
18:32
those patients that you see have that
18:34
childhood trauma? So depending on
18:37
how we define trauma, at least
18:39
80% of our clients have
18:42
some form of trauma. Um, much of the
18:45
trauma does come from childhood and it
18:48
is physical, sexual, uh,
18:51
emotional abuse. You know, what are some ways that
18:53
you've seen psychological abuse play
18:56
out in some of your clients? So
18:59
psychological abuse, one of the hardest
19:02
things to deal with because it has long term
19:05
lasting effects. There's a certain level of stress that
19:08
is positive and then there's negative. So negative
19:11
stress is high, stressed environments all the time, whether it
19:14
stems from, you know, your economic status
19:17
or any of that, witnessing violence. Um, but
19:19
emotional and verbal abuse is one of those
19:22
things that's hard to let go because it impacts
19:25
your thinking about your, yourself, um, and how
19:28
you feel in Terms of, of life and what
19:31
others think about you, your self esteem. So after
19:34
finishing the interview, then I moved down to
19:37
my family room for the third segment, which is
19:40
I'm always sitting on the floor. And during the segment
19:43
we're always engaged in something tactile, like I'm
19:46
building something. Now Mr. Rogers, he would always have an object
19:48
lesson. And you know, running a church, when, uh, you're talking
19:51
to children, object lessons are really important, usually for the
19:54
children's sermon. But I always felt like having,
19:57
um, something that's physical to represent
20:00
what we're talking about becomes so important. And so I
20:03
decided to mirror this in my episode as a visual
20:06
representation. So the, um, basically the
20:09
title slides for my episodes are always that
20:12
object, whatever that object is that I'm working with.
20:15
Um, and they all have something different to do with whatever we're talking
20:18
about. Now, concurrent with me
20:20
constructing the object, I'm also teaching a
20:23
specific concept that's the linchpin of the
20:26
episode. So for example, the
20:28
episode on trust, while I'm talking about the concept of
20:31
trust, I'm building a structure out of Magna tiles.
20:34
And I don't know if you have ever played with Magna Tiles before.
20:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, I don't think so.
20:40
>> Alexander Lang: I never had them when I was a child, but they're new, so
20:43
my kids had them. And basically they're these tiles made of basic
20:45
shapes like squares and triangles, and they have
20:48
magnets inside of them that you can very easily
20:51
build with them. It's kind of neat what you can do with
20:54
them. Um, and so I play with my
20:57
sons with these, with these magnetiles all the time. And so the
20:59
idea though that I use them for, I pull them back out because my sons are
21:02
teenagers now. Uh, but I pulled them out and I thought the
21:05
idea was to represent how trust between two people is
21:08
like a structure that we build over time and how
21:11
that structure can be damaged or even
21:13
destroyed when trust is broken.
21:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. And I mean that, that's
21:19
really great too. Just in terms of like
21:22
all that we understand now I think
21:25
about learning styles and about
21:28
the ways in which concepts are
21:30
reinforced psychologically in the human brain
21:33
is to have kind of those different elements
21:35
of, of uh, how you
21:38
get at a concept. Right. Like to have
21:41
that um, tactile piece, like
21:44
brilliant. It's really.
21:45
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, yeah. Well, and the hope is, as you said, you know,
21:48
they're, they're not going to remember everything that I say,
21:51
but what they will remember that like in their brain. You're right,
21:54
they're going to link Together. Oh, there was this object,
21:57
and. Oh, yeah, this. He was building that building. And it was about
22:00
how trust can disintegrate. Now, they. That may be all they remember,
22:03
but that's okay because at least they remembered something.
22:06
And you're right, it's. It's having those kind of connections that
22:08
really. That really matter. And then from there, I moved
22:11
to the final segment, the fourth segment, which is in my dining room.
22:14
And so whatever I was working on in the previous segment, now that's
22:17
on display next to me while I talk
22:20
about strategies for addressing the issue. So this
22:23
is kind of like my practicality. And this is. This would be where I
22:26
diverge a bit from Mr. Rogers, because Mr.
22:29
Rogers, he would provide practical applications for
22:31
children. But, you know, children, by
22:34
nature of their disposition, you know, they
22:37
have very limited capacity to change their circumstances.
22:40
Like, they just. They just can't do it because they have so little
22:42
control over their environment. And so really,
22:45
the function of his show was just to make those children, for
22:48
the most part, feel seen. Like that was really what he was trying to do, which
22:51
was beautiful. Um, but as adults, we have more
22:54
volition, right? We have choices in our lives, and we also
22:57
have more baggage that can weigh us down. So we actually have things
23:00
that life experiences that have hurt us. And
23:03
so the goal at the end of each episode for me is really twofold.
23:05
One, I want to let the viewer know
23:08
that whatever baggage they're carrying with them, that's
23:11
understandable, that's part of life,
23:13
and you shouldn't feel judged for that. And
23:16
two, I want to provide inspiration and strategies
23:19
for improving your life. And so I want
23:22
to play a short clip where I'm discussing how
23:25
finding a deep sense of purpose is one of the
23:28
best ways to overcome our anxiety. And for just a
23:31
little bit of context around this clip, earlier in the episode, I
23:34
discussed Maslow's hierarchy of need. And I come back to
23:37
that in this section as a grounding point for
23:39
purpose in our lives. So from my
23:42
perspective, what I think we need to do
23:45
is we need to look at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of
23:48
need, self actualization. The idea
23:51
behind that is that you're reaching your full
23:54
potential as human
23:57
being. And in reaching that potential, what you're doing is
23:59
you're taking your gifts and you're using them for the
24:02
benefit of people all over the
24:05
world. I think one could argue that the greatest
24:08
purpose a person can have is when
24:11
they know that their presence is changing the
24:14
world for the better. And I think the place where we can
24:17
do this best is with the people in
24:20
our lives, our friends and our family. Because
24:23
when you invest those gifts that you have, and we all
24:26
have very special gifts that we can use, when
24:28
you use those to improve the lives of the
24:31
people around you, expecting nothing in return, what
24:34
often happens is you are shown a great deal of
24:37
love and appreciation. And that's so much better than
24:40
any amount of money you could
24:43
receive.
24:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: So I'm interested,
24:47
like, I think that um, what I'm
24:50
hearing across these clips and
24:53
across your
24:56
uh, descriptions and the segments and so
24:59
on is um,
25:02
very much like applicability
25:04
to the things
25:07
that like, as adults we
25:10
struggle with, um, that like
25:13
very sort of universal
25:16
experiences of you get to
25:19
adulthood and you've got wounds
25:22
and you've got trauma and you're looking
25:25
for healing and you're looking for purpose.
25:28
So like,
25:31
are there
25:34
specific Christian
25:36
theological principles that you're,
25:39
that you're building into this
25:42
as well without using Christian
25:45
language? Do you feel like there are more
25:48
general faith principles that you're,
25:51
that you're drawing on?
25:53
What, what's kind of the theological
25:56
underpinning that, that you're working
25:59
with?
26:00
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, so my thinking has been
26:03
shaped and formed by theology. So that's,
26:05
I can't really divorce those two things any
26:08
longer just because of, as, you know, as a
26:11
pastor, this is just something that it becomes part of your
26:13
thinking. Uh, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't do that.
26:17
But as you heard in that clip, you know, there's a lot
26:19
of theology bound up in that clip. Yeah, right.
26:22
Um, I'm articulating a very
26:25
particular approach to finding
26:27
purpose that is of course resonant with Jesus's
26:30
teachings. So if somebody watches that episode
26:33
and they follow my advice, they will be living
26:36
a faith based life whether they are Christian or not.
26:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
26:41
>> Alexander Lang: But also like Fred. Right. Even
26:44
though there's a lot of theology undergirding my approach,
26:47
you're never going to hear me talk about God or Jesus in
26:50
any of these episodes. And uh, and I think
26:53
that's kind of like to me, the beauty
26:56
of kind of what comes out of this is for somebody
26:59
to have an encounter perhaps with
27:02
the divine or with these teaching
27:05
principles that can shape their life where they don't
27:08
necessarily even realize, oh, this is explicitly Christian.
27:11
In fact, if you told them that, they might turn away from it
27:14
because they would say, oh, I don't want anything to do with that. But when
27:17
you package it differently, that provides it in a way that
27:19
people say, oh, well, that feels like Something I should, I should
27:22
try. That feels like something I should apply to my
27:25
life.
27:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, just like, correct me
27:29
if I'm wrong here, but what I really
27:32
hear you saying is
27:35
that like the offering that you
27:38
are putting together here is
27:40
very much based on Christianity as
27:44
an action based faith
27:46
rather than a doctrinal faith. So
27:49
like, I don't hear you saying that
27:52
you're, you know, trying to explain the mystery
27:55
of the Trinity in a way that like,
27:57
will sort of get into people's
28:00
consciousness without them realizing it. Like, that's not
28:03
the takeaway. Like, the takeaway is very much
28:05
like these are the, the things that
28:08
you can actually do to lead
28:11
a more holistic,
28:13
healed, healthy,
28:16
um, fruitful life. Does that,
28:19
just that.
28:19
>> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. Well, yeah. And you know, for
28:22
me, I've always
28:24
approached Christianity and Jesus teachings as a
28:27
blueprint for life. It's one of many types of blueprints that a
28:30
person can utilize. Personally,
28:33
I feel that it's a, uh,
28:36
beautiful blueprint for life and it's a very fulfilling,
28:39
probably in my opinion, one of the most
28:41
meaningful ways that you can live. Now
28:44
other people might disagree with me. We, you know, that might
28:47
look at that and say, no, that's not the case. But I think
28:50
that if you take his teachings, you put them into
28:53
practice, that is going to lead to a
28:55
life that is, that brings you meaning
28:58
and purpose and fulfillment in a way that other
29:02
choices, uh, whether they be philosophical
29:05
choices or theological choices, may not. I'm not saying it's the
29:07
best way ever. I'm not saying it's right for everyone. I'm just
29:10
saying that I think that it's a good way to live your life.
29:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Every funeral that I've been doing lately,
29:16
the family wants John 14 where Jesus
29:19
says, I am the way, the truth and the life.
29:22
And um, you know, really like I
29:25
am the way, I'm the road. Like
29:28
this is, this is a path
29:31
that leads to truth
29:34
in life. Right. Like, yes, that,
29:37
um, I, I think it
29:39
is very arguably at the
29:42
heart of what Jesus was about.
29:46
>> Alexander Lang: I would agree completely. I think that's a great way to put it.
29:49
Uh, uh, and you've, you've redefined that verse in many
29:52
ways because the traditional way that people have interpreted that,
29:55
of course, is that you believe in him so you can go to
29:57
heaven. You just taking the concept of the way and saying it's a
30:00
path forward, a road that you can walk down. I mean,
30:03
that's a beautiful redefinition of that verse. And I think that
30:06
for me, I Would agree with that wholeheartedly.
30:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. It's a path that leads
30:12
somewhere. Good. Um, I
30:15
guess the other follow up piece that I'm wondering about,
30:18
like, I'm intrigued by
30:21
Fred Rogers ending every
30:23
episode with this affirmation
30:26
that like, you are good
30:29
and worthy just the way that you are. Do you feel
30:32
like there is kind of a, uh,
30:35
basic affirmation that you're trying to
30:37
communicate in Kokoro?
30:40
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I end every episode. I do borrow this
30:43
from Fred Rogers. I have an ending.
30:46
Um, I say, no matter who you are,
30:49
no matter where you've been, no matter how you feel,
30:52
please know that you are loved, you are seen
30:55
and you are cared for, if by no one else.
30:58
By me. So that's how I end every
31:01
episode. Um, and I feel
31:04
like this will get into kind of where the show is
31:07
ultimately going within the things
31:10
that we're talking about. Like, particularly when you're
31:13
talking about things like wounds or anxiety or people
31:16
don't feel like they are greatly
31:19
loved or seen or cared for.
31:22
Um, and so when you're talking about these kind of hard things,
31:25
often, and, um, they're not every episode is
31:28
really, really challenging and hard. Some are about
31:30
imagination and curiosity. There are other
31:33
things. But when you're talking about these hard things, I think people
31:36
need to know that no matter what they've been through,
31:41
that somebody sees you. Mhm,
31:44
mhm. And wants the best for you. Because I don't
31:47
know, I. In my experience, not everybody has
31:50
somebody like that in their lives.
31:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think, um, I think knowing
31:55
that you're not alone, I think knowing
31:58
like being able to trace that there are reasons
32:01
why you feel this way, there
32:04
are resources for changing the
32:06
script. I mean, I think all of those
32:09
components are
32:11
extremely important and
32:13
some sometimes really easy to lose in
32:16
adulthood.
32:17
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I, uh, I think that the,
32:20
what I see for a lot of people is there's a
32:23
huge divide. There's people who have the
32:26
tools to be able to
32:28
take those hard things and start to work with them and the people who
32:31
don't. And I think that one of the most beautiful things
32:34
about where we are today is that
32:38
you can offer tools to people. I mean, that's
32:41
essentially what I'm doing, is I'm offering thoughts and tools
32:44
for how you could restructure your life, uh, particularly
32:47
if you were not privileged enough to have those
32:50
things, to be able to enter, to
32:53
even know. I mean, uh, something that is so
32:55
striking to me so often is that
32:59
you can talk to people and
33:02
you realize, oh my gosh, it's not that
33:05
you don't care about these things, it's just that you've never been exposed
33:08
to them. And with the right kind of
33:10
exposure, those tools can help you transform
33:13
your life. But until you have that exposure, you don't
33:16
know what you don't know.
33:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
33:21
Okay. I want to come back
33:23
to this idea of
33:26
repackaging, um, our
33:28
core Christian messages
33:31
and communicating them in new
33:34
ways. Um, and just
33:36
give me a little leeway here because
33:39
this is an ongoing conversation for us in the
33:42
life of the church, particularly around social media.
33:46
Um, I think that
33:49
what we have tended to do in the
33:52
church, and I'm speaking from my neck of the
33:54
woods in the church, is that we have tended to
33:57
use social media as a
34:00
way of
34:03
marketing, um, our events. You know, like getting
34:06
people to come to the church, getting
34:09
people to follow our services, getting people to listen
34:12
to our sermons, getting people to
34:15
come support our
34:18
bazaar or whatever. And obviously
34:21
I think that there's value in doing all of that.
34:24
But I've really been
34:27
asking our team here to
34:29
consider also, particularly
34:32
with TikTok, because
34:35
we've just made some
34:39
experimental steps into TikTok,
34:42
um, like whether there's a
34:45
way of thinking about our use of social
34:48
media that is
34:51
not about trying to loop people
34:53
back to the church,
34:56
but instead is about
34:59
communicating a
35:02
message that we actually believe people need to
35:04
hear into
35:09
the social media landscape. Right. Like,
35:12
um, like I, I
35:15
am really convinced,
35:18
for example, that,
35:20
um, that
35:23
people need to be invited to see the nearness of God
35:26
at work in their lives. Like, people need to be invited
35:29
to have language and um,
35:32
vision to talk about and
35:35
see how the fingerprints
35:38
of the divine are kind of smudged all across
35:42
our human existence. And maybe that
35:44
is a, ah, good in and
35:47
of itself is to
35:51
be inviting whatever audience you happen to
35:54
connect with to just see the world
35:57
around them in a different way
36:00
without it having to
36:03
then also be
36:06
an invitation to. And come to our church.
36:08
Right. And come to
36:12
come to our Sunday service specifically, or,
36:15
you know, come to this upcoming fundraiser.
36:17
Um, how are you
36:21
sort of thinking about,
36:23
um, the
36:26
platform you're using, which right now is YouTube.
36:29
Right. Um,
36:31
like,
36:34
is the goal just
36:37
to, to be putting out a
36:40
message that people need to hear
36:42
or is there, is
36:45
there also a loop around,
36:48
you know, and then do
36:51
something about it?
36:53
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So you're, you're asking kind of a multi layered question
36:56
with this, which is, which is, I mean it's, and it's a,
36:59
actually I think it's a really fascinating question. What you're bringing
37:01
up. So let's take it back to Fred Rogers
37:04
just for. Because I think this is an interesting thing. Right. So he saw the
37:07
medium, like we talked about, the medium of television in
37:10
1960s is a way to reach children. And
37:13
social media platforms, they represent this
37:15
remarkable tool that has the potential to reach millions of people.
37:18
I mean, more than television ever could. Right.
37:22
However, one of the challenges with these platforms is that
37:25
unlike traditional television, whether or not
37:27
someone finds your clips is going to rely
37:30
heavily on what the algorithm decides to show
37:33
them. Right.
37:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
37:35
>> Alexander Lang: So I think we all know from being on these platforms,
37:38
content like what I'm creating is not
37:41
often going to show up in the feed. What tends to drive
37:44
the clicks, the likes, the interactions, are
37:47
clips that grab people's attention, which of course are going to be
37:50
things in the extreme. So um, it
37:53
can be extreme sports, it can be comedians making fun of
37:56
people, people, uh, doing dances that people love.
37:59
Right. Police, uh, chases celebrities and politicians saying
38:02
things that are controversial. So these are
38:04
the things that people watch and these are the things that tend to get the uh,
38:07
most like that show up. Mhm.
38:10
Now that said, there are
38:13
literally billions of people on these platforms. So just
38:16
because you post thoughtful content, it doesn't mean
38:19
there isn't a niche for you. Right? There's going to be
38:22
a niche out there. So I, but I
38:24
do believe that if you're going to get people to
38:28
watch something thoughtful or even theological,
38:30
how you dress it up matters.
38:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
38:33
>> Alexander Lang: So for example, let's take you're
38:36
preaching, you preach on Sunday. If you take a clip from you preaching on
38:39
Sunday morning and turn it into a short on
38:42
TikTok or YouTube or whatever on
38:44
Instagram, unless you're saying something
38:47
absolutely ridiculous like staring at the sun is
38:50
going to give you the ability to see Jesus, then it's just going to go
38:53
to the bottom of the heap. Right. No one's ever going to see that.
38:55
Now if you take that same content from your
38:58
sermon and you turn it into a skit where you act it out with
39:01
yourself, or you're able to catch
39:04
people's attention by delivering the content in a unique
39:06
way, then you have a higher probability of getting your content to
39:09
land. So I think to answer your question, yes, I
39:12
believe these platforms do offer the ability to
39:15
help people to examine their lives and see the
39:18
world differently, just like what Fred Rogers
39:21
did. But it has to be very
39:24
different and outside the box compared to what the church
39:27
currently offers.
39:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, because I guess the thing with
39:31
Kokoro and the thing that I'M
39:34
constantly struggling with, and, you
39:37
know, lots of us in Christian leadership are
39:40
constantly struggling with, is how you get out of the echo
39:42
chamber. Like, ultimately, you don't want
39:45
Kokoro to just reach
39:47
the same people who are already engaged with
39:50
your work. Right. Like, you want to
39:53
make a connection with people who.
39:56
Who haven't heard that message and
39:58
who are going to be
40:01
built up and strengthened and
40:04
given something good in their lives that,
40:07
like, they need. Right.
40:11
Not just sort of enrichment for people who are
40:13
already, like, tuned
40:16
into the good news. Right.
40:19
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, that's. And I think that's the challenging aspect
40:22
of this platform is that
40:25
the things that people like, why do people get on it? They
40:28
don't get on it generally to think, oh, I want to be
40:30
enriched. Like, they get on it to be
40:33
entertained. Right, Right. So I think
40:36
that's the challenge with it,
40:39
is that most
40:41
people's purpose in being there is not the purpose of what
40:44
we're trying to create. So you have to be
40:47
sneaky. I mean, I hate to say that, but you just kind of, uh. Do you have to be
40:50
sneaky about it? And so, like, one thing that I'm doing with my
40:53
stuff, which is so my show, it ranges anywhere
40:56
from, you know, it can be anywhere from 14 minutes to 24 minutes. It
40:59
depends on what we're talking about. The, uh, interviews, all that stuff.
41:02
I know that putting that up in a big block
41:05
is going to do me no good. Right. Like, I'm going to put
41:08
it up there. I'm going to say I edit the show so it's a whole show so people can watch
41:11
it. And I want people to watch it. But how do I get people to go to the
41:14
show? I get people to go to the show by creating
41:16
small little shorts of my
41:19
stuff that'll catch people's attention. And m.
41:22
Then hopefully what that'll lead them to is to that segment
41:25
that that's from. So they'll watch the segment and then from the segment,
41:28
my hope is that they'll go to the whole show. So the
41:31
idea is that you have to. You literally are laying
41:34
breadcrumbs for people and hoping
41:36
that they will be able to
41:39
eventually find their way. Because when you think about it, that's how
41:42
we find our way to most things that we like now is
41:45
it's a short that kind of gets us, you know, what's
41:48
our appetite? Then we kind of say, well, wait, who is this person?
41:51
You click on the thing and then they usually have something a little larger. And
41:54
then you're going like, to the whole thing. So I feel like you
41:57
have to use that methodology, but you have to. But
42:00
the other thing is, and this is kind of another aspect to it, which is
42:03
hard for you in your position and why it's easier for
42:06
me. So you're running an entire
42:08
institutional church right now. Right. Like, like, you. You
42:11
are. You're. That's, that's, uh, that's your job.
42:14
So for me, I can think about this all
42:17
day, every day. I can put tons of time and resources into which,
42:20
by the way, like to edit my episodes. You're talking
42:23
about, you know, 30 hours a week for me to do that.
42:26
So you don't have that kind of time to
42:29
write to film. Right. Like, like,
42:31
you need. You would need a group of people
42:34
to come together and help you do this,
42:37
to, uh, make it happen. And that's the problem is that most churches,
42:40
A, they're not thinking that far outside the box.
42:43
B, you know, even if you personally have
42:46
the capacity to do it well, you often don't have the time
42:49
to do it well enough to make it, like, to make it
42:51
stick. Because, uh, it's not just getting one thing they
42:54
have. You have to constantly produce
42:57
content.
42:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
42:59
>> Alexander Lang: And I think that's the hardest thing about it.
43:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, it is exciting that
43:05
you have the capacity to be
43:08
able to invest that sort of time
43:10
and vision and imagination
43:13
into, um, I think what's a really
43:16
important, important creative venture and like,
43:19
such an important frontier for us to be
43:22
on. Ah, in Christian leadership and faith
43:25
leadership. Like, are you. I
43:27
guess, what is your vision for
43:30
where you hope Kokoro will go? And
43:33
like, a sidebar to that question is like, do you
43:36
hope people like me and other
43:39
Christian leaders, do you hope that, like, will
43:42
access your show as resources that
43:45
we can offer our people? Like,
43:48
is that. And our audiences, like, is
43:51
that part of what you're hoping to do?
43:53
Realizing that, you know, a lot of us
43:56
who are leading churches are strapped for time and
43:59
resources.
44:01
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways the
44:05
hope is, you know, if we're thinking, like, what kind of audience would it
44:08
be like if you kind of start there? You know, I think that for
44:11
me, my, my audience is. Is definitely
44:14
people who want meaning. They're searching for meaning. So that's going to be like, my, my,
44:17
my initial target audience is people searching for meaning
44:19
thinkers, people who love to learn. Um,
44:22
but I also, it's not just that, you know, I'm also
44:25
thinking, okay, if you're, if you're somebody who's
44:28
depressed or you're somebody who's dealing with anxiety and you come
44:31
across one of my clips. Well, that's something that
44:34
could really get you going down this
44:36
path. That wouldn't, which is why I'm trying all these
44:39
different things. So it's like my target demographic is people
44:42
pretty much like you. Right. It's, it's people who
44:45
listen to this podcast. And I hope that, you know, I would
44:48
love it if somebody took a little clip of what I did
44:51
for, uh, one of my sections and used it in their sermon or use
44:54
it, you know, that's what it's there for. It's, you know, I make it and, and
44:57
I want it to be, I want it to be spread in that way.
44:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
45:00
>> Alexander Lang: Um, but I think one of the problems with
45:02
this medium that we get
45:05
into is that as much as the content
45:08
lends itself to a person having
45:11
a rich inner life and exploring these topics that could
45:14
really widen, give them an interaction with the divine.
45:17
The thing that you have to get more comfortable with in
45:19
delivering this message is that you are trying to
45:22
cement yourself as someone who is recognized by the public at
45:25
large. I mean, I hate to say it, like, I hate the
45:28
word influencer, like I actually despise it because
45:31
it brings to mind the idea that your credibility
45:34
is being used to peddle all sorts of goods and services
45:37
that come from endorsements.
45:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
45:39
>> Alexander Lang: And that's of course diametrically opposed to the way the mainline
45:42
church operates. Like, we try not to
45:45
have personality driven ministries in the
45:47
mainline church. Right. We don't, we don't want that in our churches.
45:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
45:51
>> Alexander Lang: But the problem is, is that in the world of social media,
45:54
name recognition does matter.
45:57
So I think that if you're really going to invest time in trying to
46:00
spread ideas to these platforms, you're
46:02
simultaneously going to have to build a
46:05
following. And I think that in and of
46:08
itself is hard for a
46:11
lot of pastors generally to
46:14
get their mind around. Because I think that if you're
46:16
humble enough about what you're trying to do as a pastor,
46:19
that's not really your goal. Your goal is to spread the good news,
46:22
right? Mhm. It's not about you, it's about this
46:25
larger message that you're trying to get out there. But in order
46:28
for it to really work on social media, you have to kind of get comfortable
46:31
with that idea and live in that tension a bit.
46:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And where are you sort of falling on that tension
46:38
right now? Like, do you feel like you can
46:41
walk that line?
46:42
>> Alexander Lang: Well, I think before that Viral moment
46:45
back in, uh, like a year ago,
46:48
um, I was not very comfortable with that at all.
46:51
In fact, when I started Restorative Faith. This is interesting. I
46:54
remember I was doing the website and there were no, there was like one
46:57
picture of me on the website. And I remember I had
47:00
somebody come in and take a look at it because I wasn't getting any views. And they
47:02
said, well, of course it's not getting any views.
47:05
Nobody knows what it's about. They like. And
47:08
they're like, what's it about? I was like, well, it's about these ideas. And they're like people.
47:11
And like this woman was really direct with me. She's
47:14
like, people don't care about ideas. She's
47:17
like, I'm sorry to say it, like they don't. They care about
47:19
who's the person conveying the idea.
47:22
So unless you're going to get out there and put your. So now
47:25
my face is all over the website. Right? Because,
47:28
because. And I. And that was hard for me because I was like, well, no, it's
47:31
not about that. It's. It's about, it's about the ideas
47:34
themselves. So for me, I think that was like a
47:36
first step. And then when that thing went viral, that's when I was
47:39
like, oh, this is what. It's a little taste of what it's like to be
47:42
in the public eye like that. It's not super fun all
47:45
the way around, I'm not going to lie. But at the same time,
47:49
people paid attention.
47:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. It is, uh,
47:53
kind of an interesting
47:55
paradox of social media
47:59
because like, we're always complaining about how
48:02
social media is
48:05
sort of the death of personal in
48:07
person communication. And yet it is
48:10
so driven by the personal, by like that
48:13
desire to connect personally
48:15
with, with others.
48:18
Right. Like to feel like this is somebody
48:21
that, that I,
48:24
I know about their lives and therefore I'm
48:26
interested in the ideas that they
48:29
have to share. Although there's something kind of
48:32
beautiful about that too. Right. Like that,
48:34
uh, that just basic human desire that no
48:37
matter what media we come up with and how
48:40
the platforms change and stuff like that
48:43
desire to connect personally
48:46
is always there.
48:48
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. Which you know, just to kind of
48:51
say, you know, where Kokoro goes.
48:53
Because, you know, the idea is I'm making these 12
48:56
episodes for a first season, but
48:59
the idea is I want to garner enough
49:02
consistent viewers that I'm going to have an audience
49:05
who wants to engage with a live show,
49:07
so.
49:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay.
49:09
>> Alexander Lang: So like in the first episode I stayed openly, like at the
49:12
conclusion of the first Season I'm going to host a weekly live
49:15
choro on Patreon beginning, uh, in
49:18
January. And so the show,
49:21
the live show will have some similarities with the film show.
49:24
Like, I'll tell stories, we'll have points of learning. I'll probably
49:26
interview people. But the big difference, like the
49:29
core difference is that I want to spend time
49:32
interacting with people who are,
49:35
who saw me and now they want. Because the
49:38
whole point is like, I want to build a community and I want
49:41
to talk about their lives. I want to talk about what are you facing.
49:43
Like, uh, and create this supportive community
49:46
where those words, I told you at the end aren't just
49:49
words. It's actually happening for
49:52
them in real time when we get together. So
49:55
like January 8th, uh, you know, that's when it
49:57
launches on Patreon. And so like 7 to 8pm every
50:00
Wednesday Central, uh, standard time. That's where I'm going to do
50:03
it for about three months and see what happens. You know, if
50:06
nobody shows up, nobody shows up. But I'm m going to try.
50:09
And I think you have to do that because the difference between my
50:12
Mr. Rogers neighborhood and uh, where he's
50:15
talking to children is they have a suspension of disbelief
50:18
that m. Like, to them there's no diff. Like they're in Mr.
50:21
Rogers house with him. That, that, that
50:24
glass doesn't, doesn't appear to them
50:26
adults. We do not have that suspension of disbelief. We need that
50:29
interactivity to feel connected. And
50:32
so my hope is, is that, that we. That Patreon
50:36
would be like the perfect bridge that allows us to
50:38
like, create that community from all over the world.
50:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, that sounds very pastoral
50:45
and like, again, it sounds like a, uh,
50:48
uh, reworking of some of the
50:51
basic pillars of church community
50:54
into something that,
50:56
um, is maybe going to
50:59
connect people who wouldn't be interested in a
51:02
church community but would
51:05
be very much nurtured
51:08
by, um, authentic
51:10
community and the living. Out of
51:13
those core messages. Where does the
51:16
name kokoro come from?
51:19
>> Alexander Lang: It's a Japanese term. Uh,
51:23
I come across it a number of years ago.
51:25
And, um, it really, it's. It's a
51:28
sacred word in Japanese culture that talks about
51:31
the connection between body, mind and soul, or heart,
51:34
mind and soul. Kokoro encompasses
51:37
what we're thinking and feeling, uh, our
51:40
aspirations for ourselves, which is kind of cool. Uh,
51:43
and then, because that's a lot of what I'm talking about. But one of the
51:45
best English renderings of it, I think is the heart of the
51:48
map.
51:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
51:49
>> Alexander Lang: Uh, which I think embodies the purposes of the
51:52
show.
51:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: And is that a definition that you
51:56
give out on one of the episodes, or that is sort
51:59
of built into the each
52:02
episode?
52:03
>> Alexander Lang: The opening episode is where I describe. In fact, in the opening
52:06
episode, I talk about Mr. Rogers. Uh,
52:09
I just lay it out of kind
52:11
of what we're here to do, and I define it for
52:14
people and talk about what Kokoro is meant to be and what we're
52:17
trying to do. So that. That's like the opening pilot is really trying to
52:20
do that part of it all. Ah, right.
52:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, Alex, I've gotten to talk to you a couple of
52:25
times now, and, uh, both on this
52:28
podcast and some conversations offline,
52:31
um, I feel like there are themes that keep coming
52:34
up in our conversations and in the
52:37
work that you're putting out into the world.
52:40
Um, I think that there's a lot around,
52:43
uh, you know, what faith looks like for the modern
52:46
person. Um, that word beauty
52:49
keeps coming up. And beauty as a
52:52
connection to the divine. Do you feel like
52:54
Kokoro is a building
52:57
of these, you know,
53:00
recurring themes? How does that connect
53:03
to those recurring themes that you keep coming
53:06
back to?
53:08
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I mean, for me personally,
53:11
I feel very fortunate that I have a
53:14
background in film, uh, the way that I do,
53:17
because, uh, when I decided to create the show,
53:20
you know, most people when we're talking about social media, they film stuff on their
53:23
cell phone.
53:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
53:24
>> Alexander Lang: Uh, and for me, what I
53:27
wanted to do is I wanted to create something that had some artistry to
53:30
it and that felt,
53:33
um. Because, I mean, the truth is that it's really me speaking
53:36
into a camera for the most part, for. For most of the
53:38
show, uh, and
53:42
that can get old very quickly. So to me,
53:45
I really wanted to make it so that there was some
53:47
beauty inside of it.
53:50
Um, and so for me, as much as I
53:53
could when I'm filming the thing, um, I
53:56
wanted people to see it and be like, oh. I want it to be
53:58
striking in enough that it was different than what most people
54:01
see out there, that it's close to film, but
54:04
not quite. So it's kind of like this in between. And so
54:07
we do a lot of shots that are. That
54:10
are very intentional around things. So I
54:13
did. I'll give you an example that I just really like. I just edited
54:16
the fourth episode, which is about curiosity.
54:18
And in the segment where I'm doing the tactile thing, I'm doing
54:21
painting. But at the same time, while I'm painting, I'm talking
54:24
about Leonardo da Vinci, who was known for being this
54:27
super curious guy, uh, who. And that's.
54:30
And it's a big reason why his paintings are
54:33
so incredibly beautiful is because
54:36
he, he managed, through his
54:39
curiosity about the world, to learn about,
54:41
like, physics of light refraction and, and
54:44
uh, how to, like, make really deep saturated colors.
54:47
He, you know, he would exhume bodies
54:50
and like, cut them apart to learn about musculature.
54:53
So while I'm painting,
54:56
you're seeing in the same room at the same
54:59
time his paintings projected on the
55:02
wall. Which, of course, my paintings are
55:04
horrible, like little kid versions of paintings, but there's a
55:07
contrast to them. The point being that there's this really kind of
55:10
beautiful resonance between them
55:13
that it gives you this moment of like, oh, my gosh, like, this
55:16
is really, uh, it's like
55:19
a beautiful way of going back and forth rather than me just sitting there and being like, well, let me tell
55:22
you about Leonardo da Vinci. Right?
55:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
55:25
>> Alexander Lang: Like, there's this moment of you're kind of seeing them go back and
55:28
forth and then there's really beautiful music underneath it.
55:30
And so my hope is, and I don't know if it'll happen, but
55:33
my hope is that there are moments
55:36
where people will feel that through
55:40
the combination of writing, creative camera shots and music,
55:43
that they encounter something beautiful. And
55:46
that is a touch of, oh, I feel that
55:49
divine inside of me. And so that, uh, I
55:52
mean, and I don't know if that's going to happen. Like, I don't know if that will
55:54
occur, but that's what I'm aiming for.
55:57
Uh, the show itself.
55:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, I have to say, Alex, like, over
56:02
the course of getting to know you,
56:05
I just have so much appreciation for the
56:07
level of detail
56:10
and, um, intentionality that you
56:13
bring to all of the different
56:16
media that you explore, whether it's
56:19
your writing, whether it's, um,
56:21
kokoro, uh, whether it's
56:24
podcasting, um, I just
56:27
feel like you are so attentive
56:30
to those details that actually make
56:33
something pop with beauty and
56:36
can sort of catch somebody off guard.
56:38
Um, and I think that being caught off guard,
56:41
whether people have the language for it or not,
56:45
is, uh, a connection to the
56:47
divine. I really do.
56:50
So let's take a break and we're going to
56:53
come back for some closing questions that
56:55
are custom made for you,
56:58
Alex, because we've talked enough
57:01
that, uh, I know some of the things
57:04
that you might be interested in wrapping up
57:06
with.
57:07
>> Alexander Lang: Thanks. Looking forward to it.
57:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.
57:16
And we are going to close out with a couple
57:19
of questions These are usually
57:22
our rapid fire questions. Um, but because
57:25
we've had Alex on the podcast before,
57:27
have custom made just a couple of questions that
57:30
we can ask each other and uh, builds
57:33
on some of the things that we've talked about
57:36
over the course of several episodes.
57:39
So Alex, what
57:42
is an important
57:45
movie or TV show? I guess other than Mr.
57:48
Rogers neighborhood? Because we've already talked about that.
57:50
Um, uh, that would be a touchstone of
57:53
faith for you.
57:54
>> Alexander Lang: Most recently, definitely the Bear.
57:57
I don't know if you've seen that show.
57:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: I have not.
58:00
>> Alexander Lang: It's about a restaurant opening up in Chicago.
58:03
But oh my God, it's like, it's, it's, it
58:06
captures so many different aspects of life.
58:09
So talk about wounds. Everyone in that show is wounded in their
58:12
own unique way. Um, but how they love each
58:15
other in the show is really beautiful. Uh,
58:17
so it's about, it's a show that,
58:20
where everybody is trying to find their best self and
58:23
they don't entirely know how to do it, but with
58:26
each other they kind of start working towards that.
58:29
Uh, and the question is, are they going to be able to get out of their own way? By
58:32
the way, it's one of the most beautifully shot shows
58:35
I've ever seen. I mean it's gorgeous cinematography,
58:38
so I can't recommend it enough.
58:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, I have heard a number of people that
58:43
I like to listen to talking about the Bear, so I
58:46
feel like you have, um, just
58:49
confirmed that this is actually something I need to
58:52
get on watching.
58:54
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a good one for sure. What about you?
58:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think
58:59
I'm going to pick Hamilton, which I
59:02
realize is also or
59:05
primarily a stage
59:07
production, but I haven't seen it on stage. I've
59:10
only seen it uh, on
59:13
the Disney platform, the recording.
59:16
Um, and
59:19
there's just this profound
59:23
moment of
59:25
Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton having
59:28
really messed up and
59:31
then losing a child.
59:35
And in the midst of this
59:37
just gut wrenching grief,
59:41
um, there's this
59:44
experience of forgiveness and grace
59:46
and it uh, and it just gets
59:49
articulated in such a beautiful way. And I'm always such a
59:52
sucker for music, being part of
59:55
how, um, things are communicated. And
59:58
then, you know, the show
1:00:00
ends and
1:00:02
um, you sort of
1:00:05
wonder whether it was about
1:00:08
Alexander Hamilton or whether it was
1:00:11
maybe about his wife
1:00:14
and some of those other voices that
1:00:17
um, that we otherwise don't notice
1:00:20
or forget to tell some of
1:00:23
these stories. There's just like some really
1:00:26
cool points in that story
1:00:28
that uh,
1:00:31
flip the narrative
1:00:34
and um, just say
1:00:37
profound things to me about forgiveness and
1:00:39
grace.
1:00:42
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's an amazing show. I've seen it live. It's
1:00:44
fantastic.
1:00:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh, I'm jealous.
1:00:48
Okay, what about a signature song?
1:00:51
What, uh, would be a song
1:00:53
that you would kind of use as,
1:00:56
uh, an explanation of what
1:00:59
this is all about, what we're all about.
1:01:03
>> Alexander Lang: So I think that changes depending on where I am in my life.
1:01:06
But right now, I would say the song that does that
1:01:09
for me is Together by Nine Inch Nails.
1:01:12
Which I know will sound strange,
1:01:14
but, uh, if you remember Nine Inch Nails from the 90s,
1:01:17
they were, like this really, like, heavy band. But if
1:01:20
you. But I don't know if you followed Trent Reznor's career,
1:01:23
but he has teamed up with Atticus Ross. They've won two Academy
1:01:26
Awards for the film scoring. I mean, they're
1:01:29
brilliant artists. And so the two of them did a Nine Inch Nails
1:01:32
album back in 2020, and the track together
1:01:35
was actually used as
1:01:37
the background music for the first episode of
1:01:40
season three of the Bear. And,
1:01:43
uh, that episode. That opening episode,
1:01:46
like, blew me away. I could. There
1:01:49
was probably 20 words of dialogue in the whole episode,
1:01:52
but this song was the backing track to
1:01:54
it. And I've rarely been transported out of
1:01:57
myself like that before. The only comparison I have is Terence
1:02:00
Malick's Tree of Life. Um, so I was definitely
1:02:03
crying a lot when I got to the end of that episode of the Bear.
1:02:06
Um. Um. So honestly, that song could be
1:02:09
the backing track for all of life for me, like, if I.
1:02:12
If I wanted to be. So I. I highly recommend that.
1:02:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I'm gonna check it out immediately. And, yeah, I think
1:02:17
that tears are a really good sign that something
1:02:20
important is happening.
1:02:22
>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you?
1:02:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, again, like, it. It
1:02:28
can depend on, uh, the day and the
1:02:31
time. And it's really hard to narrow down one song.
1:02:34
But I would say that a song that I keep coming back to is
1:02:37
Jubilee by Mary Chapin Carpenter.
1:02:40
And, um. Yeah, to me,
1:02:43
it. It
1:02:45
speaks of some of those things that we've been talking
1:02:48
about today. Like, it talks about
1:02:51
wounds and it talks about healing,
1:02:54
and it. It talks about
1:02:57
that. That search for something
1:03:00
that is sometimes hard to name.
1:03:03
Um, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say some of
1:03:06
the lyrics. Cause I can't help myself. But,
1:03:09
um, one of the verses says, I can
1:03:12
tell by the way you're searching for something you can't even
1:03:15
name that you haven't been able to come to the
1:03:18
table. Simply glad that you came. And when you
1:03:21
feel like this, try to imagine that we're all like frail
1:03:24
boats on the sea, just scanning the night for
1:03:26
that great guiding light announcing the
1:03:29
Jubilee. Wow.
1:03:31
>> Alexander Lang: It's beautiful.
1:03:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I love sort of the.
1:03:35
To me, I hear Christian imagery
1:03:38
in the table and the jubilee and
1:03:41
the guiding light. Um,
1:03:44
but it's poetic
1:03:47
and I think universal enough
1:03:50
that people can just be
1:03:53
sort of struck by the. The
1:03:56
feeling of
1:03:57
understanding what's being said.
1:04:00
>> Alexander Lang: You know, for sure. For
1:04:03
sure. Now that's, that's, uh, that really hits
1:04:06
it quite well.
1:04:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, thank you so much, Alex.
1:04:11
And, uh, do you want to give
1:04:14
our listeners, um, just any
1:04:17
places where they can find you, engage with your
1:04:20
work, follow up on
1:04:22
Kokoro.
1:04:24
>> Alexander Lang: I'll send over the YouTube channel link so that you
1:04:27
guys can post it in the show notes. But there's going to be a lot of things.
1:04:29
I'll have it on restorative faith as well. So it's. So
1:04:33
there's going to be a lot of ways that I'm going to try to get it out
1:04:35
there. And, um, the first,
1:04:38
the first episode debuts, uh, September
1:04:40
18th. And, uh, then it's going to be every
1:04:43
Wednesday from that point forward for the next 12 weeks or
1:04:46
so.
1:04:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, good luck
1:04:50
and thank you so much. We always close with a
1:04:53
word of peace, so may God's peace be with.
1:04:55
>> Alexander Lang: You, Alex, and also with you. Thank
1:04:58
you.
1:05:05
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:05:08
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1:05:11
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