Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER 'FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE,' STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES?

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CARNIVAL CRUISE TEEN CHEERLEADER 'FOUGHT FOR HER LIFE,' STRANGLED DEAD, WHY NO CHARGES? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: The carnival cruise teen girl, the little cheerleader, we now
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  Speaker 2: learn thought for her life, strangled dead a mechanical strangulation.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: What is that and why no charges? I'm Nancy Grace,
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: being with us. Teen girl Anna dead on a carnival cruise.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Her body is found stuffed under a cabin bed, life
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  Speaker 2: vests stuffed on top of her to hide her dead body.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: In the last hours, Anna Kettner, the teen girl cheerleader
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  Speaker 2: going to that Titus Little Christian school, already had her
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  Speaker 2: future mapped out, very organized, planning to join the military
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  Speaker 2: and ultimately be a police officer in the K nine unit.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: That little girl, the one scrubbed in sunshine.
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  Speaker 2: Let's see a picture of Anna, please, there you go.
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  Speaker 2: That's Santa Keptner. She's dead. Yes, the first photo was
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  Speaker 2: her experimenting with blonde hair. She's dead, stuffed under a
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  Speaker 2: cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blanket mummy style we've
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: been told, and then with life jackets crammed on top
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  Speaker 2: of her to hide her body.
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  Speaker 3: Listen, Anna Kaepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship
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  Speaker 3: now ruled a homicide, her autopsy stating she was mechanically
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  Speaker 3: asphyxiated by another person or person's The medical examiner finds
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  Speaker 3: two bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may
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  Speaker 3: have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker
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  Speaker 3: held an arm across her neck.
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  Speaker 2: See her in her little dive shirt. She loved to scuba,
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  Speaker 2: she loved to snorkel, she loved to fish, loved being
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  Speaker 2: out on the water. Joining me at the scene. Private
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  Speaker 2: investigator Robert Crispin with Cristmins Special Investigations, former Federal Task
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  Speaker 2: Force for the Department of Justice. This is the US government.
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  Speaker 2: He has worked his entire life in this jurisdiction. It
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  Speaker 2: is a floating crime scene. And now, Robert Crispin that
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  Speaker 2: we learn it was a mechanical strangulation. I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: go to doctor Kimmel Crowns in just one moment, the
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  Speaker 2: crime scene, the crime scene when you were living in
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  Speaker 2: close quarters with someone sharing a small cramp space, the
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  Speaker 2: DNA processing of that scene becomes even more vital. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: it's like a peachry dish of DNA and now it's
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  Speaker 2: all gone. Can you refresh everyone's recollection about the cruise
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  Speaker 2: ship investigators that first process that scene.
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  Speaker 4: Well, scary enough.
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  Speaker 5: Those guys aren't crime scene tech guys, and they're not
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  Speaker 5: former law enforcement guys. These are guys who took a
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  Speaker 5: test on the internet, got their license, and all of
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  Speaker 5: a sudden, they're protecting, you know, four thousand.
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  Speaker 4: People on a cruise ship.
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  Speaker 5: But what's critical about this homicide is going to come
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  Speaker 5: down to DNA.
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  Speaker 4: It's going to come down to DNA.
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  Speaker 5: And what the medical examiner says in the autopsy, the
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  Speaker 5: cause of death, et cetera, et cetera. More importantly, did
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  Speaker 5: the victim fight DNA under her nails?
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  Speaker 4: Did she scratch the suspect?
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  Speaker 5: In all of these cases, Nancy, these victims fight for
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  Speaker 5: their life.
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  Speaker 4: They're clawing DNA is under their.
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  Speaker 5: Nails of the suspect who's trying to kill them. This
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  Speaker 5: is going to be very very very important, critical evidence
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  Speaker 5: to go towards and arrest, an indictment or something to
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  Speaker 5: get this guy or rested.
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  Speaker 4: And put in jail.
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  Speaker 5: It's going to take a little bit of time now
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  Speaker 5: because obviously we don't have a confession, because if we
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  Speaker 5: had a confession, he'd already be in jail.
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  Speaker 4: So the FBI.
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  Speaker 2: Right there, Robert Crispin. I heard you referring to cause
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  Speaker 2: of death and mod man of death as et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: et cetera. Okay. I remember reading one of my own
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  Speaker 2: transcripts of a trial. I tried a felony and I
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  Speaker 2: was writing the appeal to hold the conviction on appeal.
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  Speaker 2: And I must have been very, very tired by the
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  Speaker 2: end of that trial because I was arguing to the
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  Speaker 2: judge and I was making my legal argument and said
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and judge blah blah, Okay, like you're etcetera, etcetera. I
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  Speaker 2: know one person, aside from myself that will take issue
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  Speaker 2: with the cause of death and manner of death being
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  Speaker 2: called et cetera, et cetera. Doctor Kendall Crown's joining US
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  Speaker 2: Chief Medical Examiner Terran County, host of Hitney podcast Mayhem
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  Speaker 2: in the Morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the
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  Speaker 2: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Kendel Crowns, thank
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  Speaker 2: you for being with us. Got a lot of questions
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  Speaker 2: for you about mechanical strangulation. What is it.
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  Speaker 6: So?
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  Speaker 7: Mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the
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  Speaker 7: chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe. Specifically,
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  Speaker 7: mechanical strangulation, what they're referring to as a bar hold
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  Speaker 7: or chokehold, is where the arm is placed across the
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  Speaker 7: front of the neck and then drawn back with the
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  Speaker 7: other arm, impressing your trachea and making it impossible for
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  Speaker 7: you to breathe. The other situation is the crotted sleeperhold,
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  Speaker 7: where they put your neck in the cruck of the
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  Speaker 7: arm and then compress both sides of your crodit causing
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  Speaker 7: the blood not to flow to your brain and you
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  Speaker 7: pass out. So either one of those scenarios could be
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  Speaker 7: what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangul.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand something. You put your arm across
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  Speaker 2: your neck to demonstrate mechanical strangulation. But we have learned
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  Speaker 2: tonight that Anna had two bruises on the side off
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  Speaker 2: her neck, not the track, not the front, the side
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  Speaker 2: off her neck. What does that mean?
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  Speaker 7: So it could mean when they're compressing the neck with
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  Speaker 7: the arm, that they're placing pressure with the other arm
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  Speaker 7: along the side of the neck and the arm is
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  Speaker 7: kind of to the side causing the bruising. It could
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  Speaker 7: also mean that he placed her in a crotted sleeperhold
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  Speaker 7: and using the cruck of his arm, both sides of
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  Speaker 7: his arm compress on either sides of her neck, compressing
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  Speaker 7: her karated and karatids, and caused her to pass out
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  Speaker 7: and die from lack of blood to her brain.
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  Speaker 2: You know another thing. Let me check with Shannon Butler
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  Speaker 2: on this investigative reporter WFTV Channel nine in Florida, who's
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  Speaker 2: been on Anna's case from the beginning. Shannon, we are
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  Speaker 2: being told that while the entire autopsy is not complete,
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  Speaker 2: specifically toxicology and other lab work, that there was no
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  Speaker 2: sign of sex attack. Have you learned that as well?
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  Speaker 8: Yeah, that's what we understand. I mean, remember, most of
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  Speaker 8: the information that we had been getting came mostly from
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  Speaker 8: family members, but that death certificate, at least preliminary information,
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  Speaker 8: does suggest that that's the case.
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  Speaker 2: Dancing, Okay, I'm looking at the death certificate. What part
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  Speaker 2: of the death certificate tells you there was no sex attack.
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  Speaker 8: Well, the death certificate does not, but information that we've
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  Speaker 8: received from sources from the family members have indicated that
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  Speaker 8: that is not a place.
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  Speaker 9: In this situation.
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  Speaker 2: Really really okay, because you refer to the death certificate
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  Speaker 2: as proving there was no sex attack. And there's not
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  Speaker 2: one word on this death certificate according that says anything
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  Speaker 2: about lack of sex attack or sex attack, so it's
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  Speaker 2: not on the death certificate. So we're getting the no
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  Speaker 2: sex attack knowledge from the family.
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  Speaker 4: Is that correct?
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  Speaker 8: The family and from other sources that are close to
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  Speaker 8: this investigation. But that doesn't mean Okay, we're still a
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  Speaker 8: long way from having all of the answers that we
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  Speaker 8: need in this case. And I don't know that anybody
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  Speaker 8: is satisfied with the information that's been released so far.
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  Speaker 2: You know, doctor Kendle Crowns, I want to follow up
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  Speaker 2: on what Shannon Butler just told us from WFTV, Doctor
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  Speaker 2: Kendall Crowns. If we don't have the toxicology report, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: then how am I to believe that we have a
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  Speaker 2: DNA result from a rape kit?
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  Speaker 7: Well, toxicology reports can take up to six to eight weeks,
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  Speaker 7: so you potentially don't have the DNA report back from
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  Speaker 7: a sexual assault kit or a rape kit because there
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  Speaker 7: hasn't been enough time pass. So again, there'd have to
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  Speaker 7: be a little more testing done, a little more stuff
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  Speaker 7: done by the crime labs before it's all back. My
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  Speaker 7: answer to that is maybe there is still DNA out
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  Speaker 7: there waiting to get done and we just don't know
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  Speaker 7: about it yet.
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  Speaker 2: Dodger Kentle Crowns, how long did you say would type
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  Speaker 2: for a talks you for?
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  Speaker 5: It?
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  Speaker 2: Can't there be a rush on it.
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  Speaker 7: There can be a rush on it, but typically it
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  Speaker 7: can take six to eight weeks depending on what drugs
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  Speaker 7: are on board. Especially if there's some sort of synthetic
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  Speaker 7: or designer drug being looked for, it can take up
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  Speaker 7: to two months.
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  Speaker 2: What do you mean by synthetic or designer Please.
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  Speaker 7: Like synthetic marijuana, bath salts, those kind of designer drugs
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  Speaker 7: that every so often show up that we don't have
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  Speaker 7: a lot of specific testing for. Some more has to
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  Speaker 7: be done every day that the drug chemists are making
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  Speaker 7: new variations on drugs that the toxicology labs are constantly
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  Speaker 7: having to test for to try and keep ahead.
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  Speaker 2: Of Now another issue straight up to Sydney Suner joining
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  Speaker 2: US Crime Stories investigative reporter Sidney, the word is getting
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  Speaker 2: put out that there was no sex attack and that
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  Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol did not play a contributing factor in
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  Speaker 2: her death. We don't even have the talks report. We
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  Speaker 2: don't have a DNA report, so where is this coming from.
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  Speaker 2: It's premature.
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  Speaker 10: I agree it's premature. It's coming from family members who
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  Speaker 10: have seen a more detailed death certificate than has been
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  Speaker 10: released to the public.
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  Speaker 1: But how do we know.
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  Speaker 10: How do they know this information if those reports have
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  Speaker 10: not been made official. There are so many confusing details
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  Speaker 10: about this case.
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  Speaker 2: Nancy, Yeah, Sidney, I think that people very often they
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  Speaker 2: project what they want to be true. There was a
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  Speaker 2: lot made at the get go, and this is on
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  Speaker 2: a court video. We have it on video where a
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  Speaker 2: civil attorney stated that the teens had been drinking. Now
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  Speaker 2: Carnival Cruz says, oh no, they were absolutely not drinking.
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  Speaker 2: But again, Robert Crispin, the proof will be in the pudding.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody can say whatever they want to say right now.
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  Speaker 2: No sex attack, sex attack, no drugs or alcohol.
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  Speaker 1: Drugs are alcohol in the system.
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  Speaker 2: We don't have any of those results. And again, remember
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  Speaker 2: the bands that everybody wears on cruise ships. They will
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  Speaker 2: tell it sure whether you I said earlier, had a
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  Speaker 2: bag of chips, much less much less a drink.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: That Carnival Cruise will give a miner a drink, so
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  Speaker 2: it may very well not show up on a risk band. Again,
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  Speaker 2: they're denying any alcohol was served to a miner, but
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  Speaker 2: could the miner get the alcohol in another way? Haven't
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  Speaker 2: you ever driven up to a seven to eleven and
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  Speaker 2: you see a bunch of teens out there and they're
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  Speaker 2: paying people or asking people to bring them out beer.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely, I've seen it. As a matter of fact.
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  Speaker 5: Carnival's blanket statement has to be that Nancy. They can't
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  Speaker 5: come out to the public and say that they serve
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  Speaker 5: miners at sea.
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  Speaker 4: They can't do that.
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  Speaker 5: And any of this information that's coming out is being
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  Speaker 5: released from the family.
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  Speaker 4: And don't forget Nancy.
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  Speaker 5: They had at least twenty four hours before that ship
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  Speaker 5: got back to the port of Miami that that family
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  Speaker 5: was able to get together, concoct their story and see
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  Speaker 5: or decide what they're going to release. They had a
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  Speaker 5: lot of time for family, protect family. And that's why
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  Speaker 5: this family may not want to release that she was
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  Speaker 5: sexually assaulted.
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  Speaker 4: If she was, they didn't want that out there.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, Crispin, Yeah, I learned that Anna was feeling badly.
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  Speaker 2: She's felt poorly. It was because of her braces were
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  Speaker 2: hurting her, and she asked to go back. She asked
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  Speaker 2: to go back to the room early during dinner. She
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  Speaker 2: went back, but then she got dressed up and re emerged.
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  Speaker 2: And what we're learning is she had on this cute
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  Speaker 2: little outfit. But in one report, Crispin, just one, it
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  Speaker 2: said Anne was wrapped only in a blanket with life
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  Speaker 2: Best stuffed over her only only in a blanket, which
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  Speaker 2: led me to believe that she was naked under the blanket.
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  Speaker 2: That's yet to be born out. But if that is true,
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  Speaker 2: or if she was partially clothed, why else would she
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: have been partially clothed, stuffed under a twin bed, or
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: naked wrapped in a blanket unless there had been a
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  Speaker 2: sex attack. What I'm saying is just because there's not DNA,
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  Speaker 2: just because there's not sperm on or in her body,
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  Speaker 2: does not mean there was not a sex attack.
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  Speaker 4: Correct.
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  Speaker 5: And if you go back and you listen to one
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  Speaker 5: of the statements that was made from Anna's ex boyfriend's
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  Speaker 5: father that the step son had climbed on top of
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  Speaker 5: her one night when she was in bed.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I know that Project Innocence and the Poverty
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Law Institute and all the defense bars You're gonna get
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: mad when I say this, but they could just chew
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  Speaker 2: on this. When you don't know a horse, look at
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  Speaker 2: his track record. Listen.
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  Speaker 11: She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to
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  Speaker 11: tell anybody because she was scared that he would do
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  Speaker 11: something to her.
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  Speaker 3: Joshua too, says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: one sided. The sixteen year old is obsessed with Anna
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  Speaker 3: and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep.
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  Speaker 12: He said that I tried to tell the parents that
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  Speaker 12: this was happening, and they didn't want to believe me.
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  Speaker 1: He's like infatuated, attracted her like crazy.
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  Speaker 4: He's always wanted the dator.
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  Speaker 12: Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is
• 14:54
  Speaker 12: his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that
• 15:02
  Speaker 12: Anna's ex boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here.
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  Speaker 12: So keep that in mind, Christopher, I blame you.
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  Speaker 2: That from Inside Edition and at Just Mom nineteen eighty
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: four on TikTok, that's Anna's bio. Mom, So explain to
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: me Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV. According to what we're
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: learning from her ex boyfriend Joshua Too, it's not just
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: what she said happened. He was on FaceTime with her.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: They were facetiming late at night. Anna fell asleep, but
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the FaceTime was still going and he, according to reports,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: saw the sixteen year old stepbrother crawl on top of her.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: He saw it.
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  Speaker 2: It's not just her saying that happened to her, and
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  Speaker 2: then he goes on to state she did not feel
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: safe around him. She was scared to tell anybody because
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: she thought he would quote do something to her.
• 16:03
  Speaker 9: That is what he said to reporters here.
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  Speaker 8: He also told his dad that, and his dad told
• 16:09
  Speaker 8: reporters that there was always this fear Anna had of
• 16:13
  Speaker 8: her stepbrother, but it wasn't just something that she talked about.
• 16:16
  Speaker 8: The boyfriend said he knew about it and then he
• 16:19
  Speaker 8: saw that when it happened on FaceTime and even said
• 16:21
  Speaker 8: like get off of her.
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  Speaker 9: So there are a lot of questions about.
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  Speaker 8: Exactly what Anna told him and if that really happened,
• 16:29
  Speaker 8: but that was his statement to reporters just after she
• 16:32
  Speaker 8: was found dead on that Christian.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Two doctor Janey Lacy license p likecho therapist, CEO of
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Life Counseling Solutions. She's an author, she's a star of
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: her own podcast on YouTube, Doctor Janey Lacey, thank you
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: for being with us. Why wouldn't she tell her parents?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Why did everybody else to know she was afraid of
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: the teens step brother?
• 16:52
  Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, I think this speaks to a larger issue
• 16:55
  Speaker 13: that I see in blended families, especially sometimes adult minimize
• 17:01
  Speaker 13: concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy would mean they have to.
• 17:06
  Speaker 14: Confront deeper problems in the family structure.
• 17:09
  Speaker 13: And there's often like this pressure to present this unified,
• 17:12
  Speaker 13: happy family image. But when children don't feel safe and
• 17:16
  Speaker 13: their safety doesn't come first, especially when a young woman
• 17:19
  Speaker 13: says she's uncomfortable when a boyfriend reportedly witnessing an appropriate behavior,
• 17:23
  Speaker 13: I mean, those things can't be dismissed.
• 17:25
  Speaker 14: So I would suggest that she probably didn't tell her
• 17:27
  Speaker 14: parents because of whatever the family dynamics, probably could have
• 17:30
  Speaker 14: been minimalization, dismissing, or there was no safety there, so
• 17:34
  Speaker 14: she confided in her boyfriend at the time, and perhaps
• 17:38
  Speaker 14: of friends. But we see this very common and blended
• 17:40
  Speaker 14: families when the picture of the happy family comes before
• 17:44
  Speaker 14: the safety and the feelings of the children.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Nancy to Spencer Erinfeld, known as the Cruz Lawyer, that's
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: one of his specialties. He's the founder of Aaronfeld Trial Lawyers.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: He's also an author. Spencer's thank you for being with us.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Before I take you down the garden path of cruise
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: ship law. You had to confront this at some point
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: in court. One in four women look around you. One
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: in four women and or girls have been sex assaulted
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: in some way.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Bam.
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  Speaker 2: Yet we know it's not reported. We know that the
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: statistics do not bear out that it is reported. There
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: is shame attached to it. The girl woman thinks it's
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: her fault. Wow, did I leave him?
• 18:35
  Speaker 15: On?
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Was that my fault? Society enforces it? Why she out
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: with a short skirt?
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: On?
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Why she out at a bar by herself? Ad nauseum?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: The victim is always blamed. And I wonder in this
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: case if this little girl, it goes to this title
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Field Christian School, wants to be a K nine handler.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: That's her aspiration. Was afraid no one would believe her
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: or even blame her.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: What about it?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Aaron Feld?
• 19:04
  Speaker 9: Yeah, Unfortunately, it's very true, Nancy.
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  Speaker 6: Both men and women or the victims of sexual assault
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  Speaker 6: are very reluctant to come forward for all the reasons
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  Speaker 6: you just spoke of, the guilt, the shame, the stigma,
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: and all my years.
• 19:22
  Speaker 9: Of repenting victims of sexual assault on cruise lines, both.
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: Men and women, that many of them have been victimized before.
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: This is not the first time they have been the
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: victim of sexual abuse, so they have this compounded emotional
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: paralysis that stops them from reporting it. And Nancy, if
• 19:43
  Speaker 6: they do, the cruise lines, in my experience, are the
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: least hopeful to them in getting them the cure they
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: need and preserving the evidence of these types of assaults,
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: and the cruise lines are guilty of not reporting them
• 19:58
  Speaker 6: because those reports have to be on the Department of
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: Transportation website that will list the number of sexual assaults.
• 20:06
  Speaker 9: That happened per cruise line per quarter. And if they're
• 20:10
  Speaker 9: not reported, the cruise lines don't have to report it.
• 20:13
  Speaker 9: And if they're not report.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Enough, my stars, that's an incredible fact.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Now. Earlier, doctor Jenny Lacey was describing how some girls
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: may not come forward and tell their own family about
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a family member or relative that is assaulting them. She
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: brought up that this was a blended family. Well, it's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: very blended. Listen.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: By the time Anna is five, Christopher Kaepner is having
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: an affair with a teenage babysitter. When Tabitha Donna Hugh
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: turns eighteen, Chris marries her and they have two children together.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Heather has a hard time maintaining a relationship with Anna
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: due to the bitter divorce with Chris.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: We have reached out to Anna's family, we have not
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: heard back, and I want to remind everyone that nobody
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: has been charged tonight. And I'm wondering why we are
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: told doctor Kendall Crowns that she quote fought for her life.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: How do we know that?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: How could we possibly know that? Tell me Anna Nutshell,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: how would we know she quote fought for her life?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: There's evidence.
• 21:34
  Speaker 7: Often with strangulations, the evidence is trying to get the
• 21:38
  Speaker 7: UH objects off your neck, so you'll see scratch marks
• 21:42
  Speaker 7: on the neck from the individual's fingernails themselves. You can
• 21:46
  Speaker 7: also see injuries on the person who is the suspect
• 21:50
  Speaker 7: suspect in the case as well, scratches on their face,
• 21:53
  Speaker 7: scratches on their arms. If you see intense particular hemorrhages
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: or small pinpoint hemorrhages on the face, you know that
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: the compression may have been released and then brought back,
• 22:02
  Speaker 7: and it could be that sign of a struggle as
• 22:04
  Speaker 7: well as well as the bruising on her neck could
• 22:07
  Speaker 7: be from her thrashing about trying to get the restraint
• 22:11
  Speaker 7: off her neck. So there's a number of signs that
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: could show that she fought back to try and get
• 22:15
  Speaker 7: out of the hold.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: A doctor, Kendlegrounds, You're amazing. You just told me two
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: things I hadn't already thought of. You mentioned that if
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the stranglehold him to put on her and then released
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: and she still kept fighting and it was put back,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: you're saying that that would result in additional particular hemorrhage,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: which is all the stress. You know, when you're wearing,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: you're getting your blood pressure right, and it feels like
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: part of your arm is going to blow up because
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: of the pressure. It gets so tight, right, That's what
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: happens to your eyes. The pressure is so tight that
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: the tiny blood vessels in your eyes hemorrhage, they burst,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: and you see that in asphyxiation strangulation be manual or
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: ligature or mechanical. So explain to me what you were saying.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: If the pressure had been put on your neck, released
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: and put back, what would you see as evidence of struggle?
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: So again, that would be the particular hemorrhages that you're
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: talking about, the little pinpoint hemorrhages you see in the eye,
• 23:29
  Speaker 7: but you also see them in the periocular region or
• 23:32
  Speaker 7: around the eyes as well, can be throughout the face,
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: the gums. And what happens is it only takes a
• 23:38
  Speaker 7: little bit of pressure to compress your jugular which is
• 23:41
  Speaker 7: four point four pounds, and you're crotted, which is eleven
• 23:43
  Speaker 7: pounds of pressure. And once those are compressed, you do
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: still have a little bit of vertebral artery circulation coming in.
• 23:51
  Speaker 7: But what happens when those are released all of a sudden,
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: that blood comes rushing back into your head. And then
• 23:56
  Speaker 7: if the compression comes back again, that blood is trapped
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: second time, and then that can cause the particular hemorrhages
• 24:03
  Speaker 7: to become more expressed or more pronounced, because you keep
• 24:07
  Speaker 7: getting that blood flow restored and then compressed, and then
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: restored and then eventually completely choked off or constricted. And
• 24:15
  Speaker 7: that's why you'll see more and more bursting of the
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: hemorrhages because of the blood keeps coming back in and
• 24:20
  Speaker 7: then getting stopped.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: That helped me a lot, But I still have one
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: question regarding what does it prove? Is it primitive? Would
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the original particular images look different than the second round
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: of particular hemorhages? I mean, can I look at her
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: particular images and determine that the pressure had been applied, released,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: applied again? Could I tell that strictly from the particular
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: hemorrhage alone?
• 24:51
  Speaker 7: No, No, there would be no way. It's just if
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: they're really pronounced. Well, I'm telling you the science. But
• 24:58
  Speaker 7: if it's really pronounced, you can get an idea that
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: there's been more blood flow restored. But if there's just
• 25:04
  Speaker 7: minimal particular hemorrhages that occurred initially, it won't be necessarily different.
• 25:10
  Speaker 7: It's just that the fact that there's more of them
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: means that there was more more.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: She said something about thrashing her head back and forth.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to look for evidence proving a struggle because
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: we have been told, quote, she fought for her lie.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: You mentioned scratches, got it agree?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: But what did you say about her.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Thrashing her head back and forth, which would indicate a struggle.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: How can I tell she thrashed.
• 25:37
  Speaker 7: Put the neck in a carotted sleeper hoole and she
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: starts pushing against the pressure on her neck that can
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: cause the bruising. Also internally, when the skin is dissected
• 25:48
  Speaker 7: up and you look at the neck muscles, you can
• 25:51
  Speaker 7: see stretching of stretching hemorrhages of the neck muscles from
• 25:55
  Speaker 7: them trying to pull out of the hold as well,
• 25:57
  Speaker 7: So you can see that internally like hemorrhages the musculture
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: that showed that she was violently fighting against the constrictive
• 26:05
  Speaker 7: process on her neck.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: she shares with her brothers. After eating, The teen boys
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone.
• 26:23
  Speaker 16: Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their
• 26:26
  Speaker 16: cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard
• 26:29
  Speaker 16: the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning
• 26:33
  Speaker 16: and screams from inside the room.
• 26:36
  Speaker 11: He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful
• 26:39
  Speaker 11: way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that.
• 26:42
  Speaker 11: Like something was like banging around and stuff, and like
• 26:46
  Speaker 11: the chairs were getting thrown around in the room.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: From Inside Edition, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old Anna
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: kept her The little girl was wrapped Anne and sheets,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: possibly a blanket. It was a full twenty four hours
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: before her body.
• 27:04
  Speaker 17: Di found.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Anna Kittner, the teen cheerleader, dead on a carnival cruise ship.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: The cruise ship insisting there was no alcohol serf to teens,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: but in a videoed court hearing, a lawyer says they
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: were drinking. What is the truth? Don't know yet because
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: in the last hours a gag order has been placed.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: In other words, the medical examiner can't speak. Everybody's clamped down.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Nobody can speak.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: Why.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Why is that?
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: That's very very unusual. But we're learning a lot because
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: of divorce proceedings. Listen.
• 27:48
  Speaker 17: Court records from stepmom Sean tell Hudson's divorced indicate her
• 27:52
  Speaker 17: sixteen year old son and his stepbrother may be a
• 27:55
  Speaker 17: suspect in the teen's murder. The FBI has remained silent.
• 27:58
  Speaker 17: No charges have been fined.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I would have difficulty in them putting the sixteen year
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: old on the stand because I don't want anything done
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: that would incriminate the young man. So I believe what
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: they're saying. Shannon Butler joining US w FTV on this
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: case from the very beginning, joining US out of Florida.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: You've got ongoing divorce custody proceedings and and those the
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: mom of the teen step brother files any emergency here
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and saying I'm not answering any questions. Nobody's taking the
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: stand because it could hurt my son's right to a
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: fair trial, a fair trial on what obviously the Anna
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Kepner murder.
• 28:40
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that was the first we had heard about the
• 28:42
  Speaker 8: stepbrother being a suspect. We didn't get any of that
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: from investigators. But then you go into this, you know,
• 28:48
  Speaker 8: separate court case, and that's how that information was revealed,
• 28:52
  Speaker 8: and that's what kind of started everybody now asking these questions.
• 28:56
  Speaker 8: And if you, you know, listen to the family members
• 28:59
  Speaker 8: about that brother. They talk about how he was very
• 29:03
  Speaker 8: very distraught over this, how they had to he had
• 29:06
  Speaker 8: to be hospitalized, the behavior.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, the teen
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: step brother was distraught, distraught, correct, that's what they say. Okay.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Was he distraught about Anna being dead or about him
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: being a suspect.
• 29:27
  Speaker 9: That's still the question.
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: The family was very very clear that he was very
• 29:31
  Speaker 8: very upset after this happened and had to be Hospitalizing.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Spencer Aaronfeld joining us. The cruise lawyer, he's handled so
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: many cruise ship cases, typically for the complainant, the alleged victim,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: not the cruise line.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: He's got to say many.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I tried to count them, couldn't count them. Spencer. We
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: were told that the team brother was so distraught that
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: he had to go in the hospital. Then he was
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: miraculously released from the hospital. He wasn't wearing a band aid,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: he wasn't on crutches. Why was he in the hospital?
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Was that a delay tactic? Then we were told he
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: was quote so upset he quote couldn't talk to FBI investigators.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Sounds a lot to me like invoking your right to
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: remain silent.
• 30:37
  Speaker 9: One hundred percent, Nancy.
• 30:39
  Speaker 6: And it also destruction of evidence because when he went
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: to the hospital, I'm sure that he changed his clothes.
• 30:45
  Speaker 9: What happened to his clothes.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: I'm sure he was cleaned, and his fingers and what's
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: under his nails, and all sorts of things that would
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: have been invaluable evidence to the investigators and prosecutors.
• 30:57
  Speaker 9: In this case were probably lost by that. To the hospital.
• 31:01
  Speaker 9: It really interrupted the chain of custody.
• 31:04
  Speaker 15: Of a lot of evidence that would have been left
• 31:07
  Speaker 15: on him, including potentially bodily fluids and things that may
• 31:12
  Speaker 15: have been on his hands, on his clothes.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: You know, Spencer Ernfield, you are my own personal chamber
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: of hers. I hadn't even thought of that yet. The
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: fact that he goes straight into a hospital setting and
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: his clothes could be god knows where, Robert Crispin, that's important.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I want to see his clothes. I want to look
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: for microscopic evidence. I'm wanna look for blood. I'm wanna
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: look for sperm, I wanna look for her blood. And yes,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: I want to see his underwear for obvious reasons. It's
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: probably all gone, Robert.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: It probably is Nancy.
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: Hence the long delay before the ship got back to
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: locking down the crime scene, locking down the people their clothing,
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: not letting anyone and go anywhere. Intermingle talk to people,
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: separating everybody.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: It's just it's a recipe for disaster.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: Those clothes tell investigators and prosecutors and judges and juries
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: so much information. It's insane, the information that comes out
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: of just your clothes, or what comes from underneath your fingernail,
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: or what comes from actually on your body.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Nancy, come on, how many times have.
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: You known or heard where a fingerprint is actually pulled
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: from a body somebody else's fingerprint.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Also, because of this court hearing, we hear allegations that
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: the teams have been drinking. Is that true? We don't
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: know yet.
• 32:44
  Speaker 9: Listen, we feel there.
• 32:45
  Speaker 18: Are some circumstances regarding that the sixteen year old and
• 32:50
  Speaker 18: the mother's judgment regarding that cruise that would affect you know,
• 32:57
  Speaker 18: obviously that her ability to care for the my child,
• 33:00
  Speaker 18: the nine year old. The sixteen year old was allowed
• 33:03
  Speaker 18: to drink, the teenagers were given their own room in
• 33:09
  Speaker 18: which to stay. Just a lot of circumstances that showed
• 33:14
  Speaker 18: that the mother in this case was not exercising appropriate
• 33:19
  Speaker 18: supervision over this child.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: And of course the cruise ship is vehemently denying that
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: the teens had alcohol. Of course, the family is stunned.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: They've got Anna dad stuffed under a bed. They've got
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the sixteen year old reportedly a target. Listen.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: He was a good student, played soccer.
• 33:41
  Speaker 19: He played soccer, very quiet young man. He had demons,
• 33:45
  Speaker 19: I think in his past and he was trying to
• 33:48
  Speaker 19: deal with those.
• 33:49
  Speaker 17: Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked Ganna's sixteen year old
• 33:52
  Speaker 17: stepbrother is being eyed as a suspect and their murder.
• 33:55
  Speaker 17: Describing them as two peas in a pod and very close.
• 33:59
  Speaker 17: She says the teen was distraught when he learned and
• 34:01
  Speaker 17: his body was found and couldn't speak during an initial
• 34:04
  Speaker 17: interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he
• 34:07
  Speaker 17: can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation.
• 34:11
  Speaker 17: When they arrived back in Miami.
• 34:13
  Speaker 19: He was an emotional mess. He couldn't even speak. He
• 34:19
  Speaker 19: couldn't believe what had happened.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: That from our friends at ABC. Did you hear that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: doctor Janey Lacy joining us license psychotherapist. He was an
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: emotional mess. He couldn't speak, he couldn't believe what happened.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: He was in the room when it happened. According to
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence, unless we want to believe she choke, helled
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: herself and stuffed herself under the bunk tonight, no charges.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: What does that mean to you?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: An emotional mess, couldn't speak, couldn't believe what happened.
• 34:50
  Speaker 14: It means a couple of things, Nancy. In that interview
• 34:52
  Speaker 14: her talking about his demon.
• 34:54
  Speaker 13: So did the family know that he had some struggles
• 34:57
  Speaker 13: and they weren't adequately addressed?
• 35:00
  Speaker 10: And then the.
• 35:00
  Speaker 13: Critical question to me becomes, then where were the adults.
• 35:03
  Speaker 13: If they were, where are these demons? And if he's
• 35:05
  Speaker 13: emotionally distressed in these types of things, right, that can
• 35:09
  Speaker 13: be a shock, truly a shock, because we do have situations, Nancy,
• 35:13
  Speaker 13: where when people go into what we would call a
• 35:16
  Speaker 13: narcissistic type of rage when they get some type of
• 35:19
  Speaker 13: rejection or they're not getting the things that they want,
• 35:23
  Speaker 13: that in that moment, the heightenedness of their emotional regulation
• 35:26
  Speaker 13: goes and they can have these moments where they kind
• 35:30
  Speaker 13: of black out, so to speak, and then when they
• 35:31
  Speaker 13: come to there's a gravity of what has happened to.
• 35:35
  Speaker 14: In their behaviors in the situation. So you know, it
• 35:39
  Speaker 14: also could be the consciousness of guilt.
• 35:40
  Speaker 13: When you have the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can
• 35:43
  Speaker 13: come on, come on strong, So I would probably say
• 35:45
  Speaker 13: it's somewhere in those two realms, Nancy.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Then you have the whole other can of worms with
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the bio mom. What are we hearing from her?
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: A never want friend, they call me and get a
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: hold of me and anything.
• 35:58
  Speaker 9: When he died, I.
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: Found out through Google, Heather says.
• 36:02
  Speaker 17: On top of discovering Anna died through internet searches instead
• 36:05
  Speaker 17: of her father, captainer also told her she wasn't welcoming
• 36:08
  Speaker 17: Anna's celebration of life service. She claims Captainer threatened to
• 36:12
  Speaker 17: have her arrested were a disguise to her own daughter's
• 36:15
  Speaker 17: memorial so she could say goodbye in peace. Other is
• 36:17
  Speaker 17: not mentioned in Anna's obituary.
• 36:20
  Speaker 12: I'm going to put a wig on and wear some
• 36:22
  Speaker 12: really tall shoes because I'm four foot.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Nine, was too and inside addition, and back out to
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Robert Crispin and private investigator Crispin Special Investigations.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: This is his turf.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: He's joining us from Port of Miami. Did you hear
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: that the teen.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Step brother.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Is too distraught to speak? First goes into a psychiatric hold,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: then he comes out really quickly. Guess he wasn't that ill.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Now he's too upset to talk about what happened in
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: the room for he and Anna were alone, and she
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: ends up stuffed under a twin bed, too upset to speak.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: He's too upset about quote what happened. He also told
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: someone he couldn't remember what happened.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: So what is that?
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: A temporary blackout?
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: So that's not uncommon they don't remember things. Oh, I
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: feel so bad. I got to go to the hospital.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: I can't I can't believe what happened. I don't remember Nancy.
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: Go back in the history of this kid. There's reports
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: out there that.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: He's had demons. I want to know what are his demons?
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: I want to know did those demons come to light
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: in that cabin with Anna?
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Why do I care about his feelings. I do not
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: by the way, she's being cremated, so I certainly hope
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: they got all the evidence that they needed to get
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: from her body. But that said, why do I have
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: to keep hearing about him being upset? She's dead?
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Oh That's what I'm upset about, not about his.
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: I understand, but that's very, very important to a prosecutor
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: in law enforcement, because how many times, Nancy, have we
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: had a suspect who killed someone never went to church
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: in their life.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: They're a suspect, we can't prove it yet, and all
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: of a sudden, now they found God. They go to
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: church every single day. That's a sign.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said what you just said, because
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV, you heard what Chrispin just said.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: The taine has not been charged. Why has a Tanane
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: not been charged? That said, he's not even being held
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: as a suspect. He is walking free. He is quote
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: under watched, underwatched by who who's watching him?
• 38:47
  Speaker 8: Well, that's the frustration from the family and frankly this
• 38:50
  Speaker 8: community along the coast there, that's the frustration, like when
• 38:55
  Speaker 8: is something going to happen, When is there going to
• 38:57
  Speaker 8: be in arrested, When are the answers going to come out?
• 39:00
  Speaker 8: So much we don't know about this case because the
• 39:02
  Speaker 8: FBI has not been transparent with their information their investigation,
• 39:07
  Speaker 8: which is not unusual for the FBI, But there's lots
• 39:11
  Speaker 8: of information that still is not out there. We can
• 39:14
  Speaker 8: only assume that they're building the case and that something
• 39:18
  Speaker 8: will happen soon, but there is no timeline for that.
• 39:22
  Speaker 8: We don't know how long we'll be sitting here waiting,
• 39:24
  Speaker 8: and this family will have to wait for some kind
• 39:26
  Speaker 8: of answer here.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about Anna's
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: murder mechanical strangulation, please call seven five four seven zero
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: three two thousand, repeat seven five four seven zero three
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: two thousand. It could be something that you observed. It
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: could be something your child told you that Anna said.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: It could be something the teen boyd If you know
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: or think you know, please help with This investigation is
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: ongoing and tonight still no charges. We remember an American
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: hero Officer, Alec Sanders Alambra PD, California, just twenty eight
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: killed in the line of duty, leaving behind aggrieving fiance.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: American Hero Officer Alec Sanders, Nancy Gray signing off goodbye.