Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #73 Beyond the ‘I’m So OCD’ Meme: Understanding Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with Dr. John Guerry

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#73 Beyond the ‘I’m So OCD’ Meme: Understanding Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with Dr. John Guerry · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

Dr. John Guerry- OCDLiz: [00:00:00] alright, listeners, I'm really excited. I know we've been, um, Sarah and I are always going through our Rolodex trying, I mean, do people even know what a Rolodex is anymore? I mean,College Is Fine Podcast: No, no. WhatchaLiz: I'm always going through my contacts. Thinking about who is amazing, funny, um, and intelligent and has something really interesting to say from my past.And I'm really excited today 'cause a colleague of someone who I trained with at Montefiore in the Bronx, uh, is here today. And we are gonna talk about a topic that we've been wanting to talk about, which is OCD. You know, every single person I think I see thinks they have it, and I think we could learn a little bit more about it.And. I want you to meet John. So John, introduce yourself. Tell the listeners who you are, where are you, what are you doing?John Guerry: Yeah, I'm John Gary, and I am in private practice just outside of Philadelphia, uh, on the main line. Um, and we're in a group called Harbor. [00:01:00] Um, and in addition to kind of our love of working with people of anxiety and OCD and kind of related, um, issues like that, we also share a love of a very long, cumbersome acronyms.Uh, so, uh, the home for anxiety, repa, repetitive behaviors, OCD and related Disorder. Um, so here we are, um, and, uh, and we have two locations in Philadelphia. And, uh, I'm on the main line, um, to, to serve kind of, uh, differentLiz: Um, I, I mean, we talk a lot on here about the acronym situation that exists within behavioral therapies. So, um, but it's too much, but I.John Guerry: Yeah,College Is Fine Podcast: It's too much. Too much, or not enough depending on whoLiz: Great.College Is Fine Podcast: 'cause we keep on making them new ones, so I guess No, just kidding. They'reLiz: All right. Well look at that. Right? Within the acronym of where you work is OCD. Um, so I thought we could start a little bit. I mean, Sarah, do you also feel, I mean, particularly with the rise of TikTok, um, the amount of tiktoks I get sent about, um, symptoms. My patients are experiencing [00:02:00] that they now think that they have OCD.Um, it is definitely a diagnosis that I hear more about and questions about. And also, um, it's in the vernacular, right? It's colloquially kind of used. Um, so you agree though, right Sarah? It's it's all over the place.College Is Fine Podcast: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, it's like for better or for worse. You know, we always say like, is it good that they've come in to see usLiz: Right.College Is Fine Podcast: of something they heard onLiz: Um, what is, what I can, anyway, we can go more into that, but I also think so many people, it's the thing I get asked the most aboutCollege Is Fine Podcast: manyLiz: almost 99% of the time the answer isCollege Is Fine Podcast: almostLiz: no. You, you know,College Is Fine Podcast: time the answerLiz: doing too much. Like,College Is Fine Podcast: youLiz: no, that's thing, that's notCollege Is Fine Podcast: like a diagnosis. LikeLiz: of.College Is Fine Podcast: that's a typical thing. That's not OCD or this is kind of within the normal range of, of behaviors, but I think it's fascinating to people. and I think that enough people around them have said something like, oh, I have OCD or I'm so [00:03:00] OCD, that people start to think, huh, could this be something that I, I've got going on?So,John Guerry: we see that a lot too. And I, we also see theLiz: Yeah.John Guerry: as I'm sure you guys too, where we haveCollege Is Fine Podcast: yeah.John Guerry: are diagnosed with OCD and are just, stressed and even hurt and a little offended by kind of people saying things like,Liz: Yeah.John Guerry: OCD about this, or kind of holding it out asCollege Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.John Guerry: kind of like a. like a cool quirk or, or something that the others want, wanna identify with. Uh, and so that's, that'sLiz: Right, right, right.John Guerry: ALiz: So John.John Guerry: right?Liz: Wanna take, um, a stab at trying to describe what OCD really is.John Guerry: Yeah. I, I, I, so it's. And thinking about it's, you know, it's definitely a bug and not a feature. Right. Um, and thinking about how just, you know, we all as humans, right? We kind of like, we're we, we, we float around on currents and things like that. And there's to, to some extent there are things kind of related to like the [00:04:00] spectrum of OCD, right?So like, which of us can't kind of relate to just like having like. Yeah. Lucky socks or underwear, right. For like an important test or, um, or things like that. Or just having a particular order that we never really kind of thought about kind of using the way we like shower or towel off or tie shoes or things like that. So to some extent there's this like, um, gradient or like spectrum. Um, so that's the current that we all kind of float in, right? And, uh, it can be related to stress that we seek more of this in ourselves and, and other people. Um, but then once it becomes OCD, it really is kind of more like the whirlpool, like, um, that is comp a completely different experience, right? Um, where people just get locked into these terrible kind of cycles of having these like repeated, intrusive, like odd, know, unwanted, right? Like thoughts kind of worries images, pictures in their mind, impulses or urges. over and over again, popping in their head over and over again and makes [00:05:00] them really, really upset.Like scared, uncomfortable, um, things like that. And I'm sure we all know the classic examples of of, of this. I can give some too. It's helpful, but, but then the compulsions come along and people do that. Not because they're, 'cause they're crazy, but because it, it works, right? Um, nothing works better. Uh, in terms of like immediate kind of relief or symptom reduction in the short term than engaging in this, in, in a compulsion, right? Uh, and so,College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah.John Guerry: when you do that, uh, the, it's so it, it feels better. Um, but then it kind of grows the beast over time, right? So, to back to your original question, right, so it's, it's something that we can relate to, like all kind of forms of kind of, uh, mental health, you know, behavioral health difficulties. Um, but it becomes a very different thing once you can reach the criteriaLiz: Right. I, I think, um, there was the study that they didCollege Is Fine Podcast: ILiz: a lot of, like, a lot of,College Is Fine Podcast: there was a study that they did and a lot of, like a lot of these studies, they were done on collegeLiz: or not.College Is Fine Podcast: where they asked. People, whether or [00:06:00] not they've had some version of a quirky or intrusive thought. And I thinkLiz: or moreCollege Is Fine Podcast: right,Liz: said that they had these thought meaning like in a typical college classroomCollege Is Fine Podcast: thoughts.Meaning like in a typical college classroom, most people are saying they've had them. And the big joke, of course, among all the people with OZ is like, and another 10% were lying. You know, like the, we all have someLiz: with,College Is Fine Podcast: of these thoughts. And once ILiz: I started to more attention like, Hey.College Is Fine Podcast: I started paying more attention.Like, Hey, let meLiz: When I was living in New York, I definitely would be on the subwayCollege Is Fine Podcast: livingLiz: and have the thought of like, oh my gosh, my goodness person.College Is Fine Podcast: be on the subwayLiz: Like,College Is Fine Podcast: thought of like,Liz: you know,College Is Fine Podcast: I could justLiz: and, and whereasCollege Is Fine Podcast: youLiz: someone else who had those unique might say that same exact thingCollege Is Fine Podcast: elseLiz: andCollege Is Fine Podcast: sameLiz: start to wonder like, oh my gosh, I homicide. Right? Whereas that,College Is Fine Podcast: wonder like, oh my gosh, amLiz: that's not like, soJohn Guerry: Yep.College Is Fine Podcast: Right? Whereas I wasLiz: why?What's the difference between the ones who haveCollege Is Fine Podcast: SoLiz: work,College Is Fine Podcast: the difference between the onesLiz: right? That's.College Is Fine Podcast: quirky thoughts like, like most of us have? Right? That's not so strange. And when [00:07:00] people start to feed into it.John Guerry: I, I, I love, I love that study, right?Liz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: the content of thoughts, right? We have like thousands and thousands of thoughts a day, right? That that's kind of what our brain deals us. And most of the time they kind of, uh, they float in and out without our awareness. Um, and so there really is when they can look at people who have OCD as compared to people who don't. There's no difference at all in the content of the thoughts. It's the reaction to them. Right? And so, uh, so I'm gonna go on a limb, right? You know, Liz and, and, and Sarah, right? Like, we, we have thoughts like these and hopefully this isn't too kind of, uh, frightening for your audience to hear this, right? Of having the thought, um, I'm sure I have about kinda pushing someone on a Subway platform. The difference is, I can't say for sure if I've had it because I wouldn't notice it. It's just, it's the kind of thing that, um, that doesn't stick. Uh, I don't have a particular reaction to it because, uh, and maybe this is partly just, again, I didn't, I didn't earn this partly 'cause of just, just, again, it's a complex play of genes, uh, and life [00:08:00] experiences and things like that.But also I think being a therapist kind of inoculates you to some extent, a little bit. Um, just knowing the thoughts are just thoughts, right? Uh, and then they kind of float in and out without me kind of assigning any particular importance to it. Uh, with someone with OCD, again, they didn't do anything wrong.Just a huge part of OCD is just genetics and, and lots of complicated factors, right? That give rise to just having thoughts and then being them, being a bit sticky, and then kind of having big kind of reactions to having those thoughts, right? That like laden them or kind of laces them with this like radioactive kind of emotion, right? Uh, and then. Then having big reactions to thoughts oftentimes kind of ensures, especially if we're trying to suppress them or push them away, or, um, give them kind of more power in that way. Explain them away, then they're gonna come back, they're gonna come back even stronger and more frequent. Um, and so I guess maybe the other thing I would say is, uh, I have heard it said [00:09:00] once, uh, at a conference, and this stuck with me like 10 years ago. That. Um, and I think this clicked for me too about kind of something to some, there's something in there about why I love doing this work is people with OCD are just the loveliest of people. Um, they have such big hearts, uh, and they care so deeply. Uh, and so that's a part of how OCD gets you. Um,Liz: Hmm.John Guerry: really attaches itself to the things that are most important to you. Um. Like your values and the things you're passionate about, right? So why can parents get OCD kind of related to their children? Um, romantic partners get OCD oftentimes, sometimes right? About, uh, about their spouses, things like that, right? And so when we have thoughts that are unwanted and we don't like them, they don't feel like they are represent of us as a person. Then this sets the stage for us to have big reactions to, to the having of those thoughts, right? Uh, and again, can lead us to push us awayLiz: Yeah, I think, um, when you were [00:10:00] talking about that, John, I was thinking about, um. A reaction, um, amongst peers, how peers kind of, um, in college might not really understand, uh, how difficult OCD symptoms are while navigating the college experience. And a patient of mine has a lot of worries about morality.Like, am I a good person and worries about, you know, shouting things that are inappropriate that would not be in line with their values? Right? Um, and she was telling me like. The reaction from her friends has been like, that's like so irrational. Like you would never do that. Like we know who you are as a person, right?Like there's this almost like oversimplification from people that you can kind of just talk and, and of course my patient's like, yeah, I know rationally. I really don't think I would do that. But there's some evidence of doubt, I guess perhaps that she could at some point. Um, so maybe you could speak a little bit about like.What are some [00:11:00] common reactions that, or, or, or difficulties that people who do have OCD, like how, uh, the environment maybe responds to 'em or reacts to them?John Guerry: Yeah, I think this gets back to just how, again, it, it's a good thing that, we as humans can relate to the experience of other humans. Uh, on the other hand, we can never live in each other's bodies. Right. Uh, and then, and again, I think, you know, just when you, when you hear. You know, just in on social media or kind of elsewhere, right?Just the, the normalization of OCD that as we kind of talked about a little bit earlier in this podcast, um, that can kind of backfire and be a little bit, um, invalidating of a person's experience, uh, of what it's like to just truly have OCD. Um, you know, as we kind of talked about a little bit before, like through OCD.It takes up so much bandwidth, right? So much brain power. People are just, uh, just, just a sailed kind of, [00:12:00] you know, inundated all day long with these kind of unwanted kind of fears, um, that often take the form of like, what if, uh, and they can't be reasoned with. So then we haveLiz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: of yes but reactions. Um, and then people again get stuck in these cycles of just trying to manage it desperately with the compulsions, which then completes that circuit in your brain. tells you the only way to feel better about that thing is to do that compulsion. Right. Um, but kind of back to your question, Liz, so, you know, when people are talking about being so OCD about something or seeing it as is and, and I feel like I know where the intentions are coming from. Often there, there are good intentions, right?Trying to kind of reclaim that and talking about this is, uh, in an affirmative way, uh, and the ways in which it helps them. Um, but really it's, it's just a completely different in terms of function and form, uh, when we're talking about true OCD. So, for example, I'm curious what you guys think. Um, oftentimes when I feel like people are talking about, um, oh, I'm so OCD about [00:13:00] this, they're, they're being self-deprecating, but also might be talkingLiz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: you know, a positive ish personality trait that they feel pretty good about it, but being like very organized. being very kind of neat and fastidious. Um, they're really good at keeping track of things. They, they make a list and they check it twice. Um, those kinds of things. And, and really that's, that's not even close to what we're talking about. Um, that's maybe more in the neighbor in the general kind of ballpark of something called obsessive compulsive personality disorder.Liz: Right, right.John Guerry: close to that. Right? Again, 'cause these, these kinds of behaviors and these kind of, um. These things that people are kind of prioritizing, uh, can be really adaptive and helpful, uh, depending on the context and if it's not at an extreme level. Um, but, but again, about adding to confusion, right?Having kind of those diagnoses share a lot of the same kind of letters and words. Um, and so that doesn't really help things,Liz: [00:14:00] No de I mean, definitely not. I think, yes, I agree. I think that, um, people often talk about OCD as being like this OCD aspect of their personality as being a positive trait. Um, and I often think too, even we've heard people who truly do have OCD, there are some aspects of the OCD that are. Helpful to them.Right. Um, so it complicates things more because I think there's both this, um, there is a reinforcing and also punishing part of the disorder for them. But I, I think we can summarize one aspect when people are kind of like, is this OCD or what is OCD? That there really is a difference. Between real impairment, um, in terms of like, what are these symptoms doing to you?Like in the case of my patient I was referring to before, there's a real cost to their relationships, um, in terms of the amount of reassurance they're looking for or the avoidance of conversations or topics that [00:15:00] may trigger their worries. Right. Um, to a really severe level that. You know, they're more socially isolated than somebody who, um, has a little perfectionism in terms of how they organize their closet.Right. And I think that one other thing that comes to mind too is thatCollege Is Fine Podcast: one other thing that comes to mind too is that you, well,Liz: obsession,College Is Fine Podcast: a specific opinion about what.Liz: right? And they tend to go towards more.College Is Fine Podcast: right, andLiz: my hands.College Is Fine Podcast: towards more. I wash my hands a lot. I'm really neat, or I'm really organized and I think that as we know, OCD, it's so much moreLiz: People really struggle with contamination, fears and germs, butCollege Is Fine Podcast: withLiz: I've definitely worked with people where you look at them, you would never knowCollege Is Fine Podcast: where you would look at them and you wouldLiz: they'reCollege Is Fine Podcast: know thatLiz: their,College Is Fine Podcast: OCD because they're not. Washing their hands to the point of having, you know,Liz: they're just suffering in silenceCollege Is Fine Podcast: They,Liz: andCollege Is Fine Podcast: are justLiz: never know what they're [00:16:00] doing becauseCollege Is Fine Podcast: knowLiz: internallyCollege Is Fine Podcast: perhaps they're doing something internally. LikeLiz: to be symmetricalCollege Is Fine Podcast: with whereLiz: when she was little.College Is Fine Podcast: to beLiz: Tap out LLCollege Is Fine Podcast: when she was little,Liz: and as she got older,College Is Fine Podcast: Out syllables.Liz: 17,College Is Fine Podcast: she got older and got to beLiz: good at,College Is Fine Podcast: 17, she just got so quote unquoteLiz: would go toCollege Is Fine Podcast: that she did it mentally. And so she would go to school and be the captain of the lacrosse team and she would make straight A's and she'dLiz: all that. Well alsoCollege Is Fine Podcast: by the end of the dayLiz: tappingCollege Is Fine Podcast: was doing all that while also 'cause Liz: people were talking, trying to.College Is Fine Podcast: as people were talkingLiz: Um, so I'm justCollege Is Fine Podcast: even in herLiz: about that, if you hear that about too, like what are some waysCollege Is Fine Podcast: about that. If youLiz: thatCollege Is Fine Podcast: aLiz: it might beCollege Is Fine Podcast: some ways thatLiz: so much, um, behindCollege Is Fine Podcast: soLiz: closed doors or hidden, butCollege Is Fine Podcast: behindLiz: or more surprising things about OCD that people might realize.College Is Fine Podcast: things aboutLiz: Um,College Is Fine Podcast: thatLiz: they, someone might not look like they're suffering, butCollege Is Fine Podcast: someoneLiz: they still.College Is Fine Podcast: look like they're suffering, but they still could really be struggling.John Guerry: Yeah, that's such a great point. It, it really is like, like so many forms of anxiety. [00:17:00] Right. Um, and OCD, of course, is a close cousin and often has an anxiety component. Just the suffering in silence, um, feature of it is just kind of the insult to injury, right? Um, this is very much kind of behind, um, how so many kind of people with OCD kind of suffer for years and years, right?Before they're even kind of walking into a therapist's office, uh, let alone getting diagnosed. Um, and then years often after that, before they're connected to kinda really good evidence-based treatment that has, stands a chance of helping them. Em. and so Sarah, yeah, that's also just such a great point because so many of the, kind of the symptoms of OCD, um, are, um, both obsessions and compulsions can be mental acts, and that can be really, really confusing.So back to your kind of your, your, your client, right? That kind of started tapping kind of first physically and overtly, and then became, then started to do that kind of in, in their mind again, this is kind of like the, you know, the metaphor of like. [00:18:00] Um, the duck on the, on the still pond, right? Um, you can't see that, like the legs are moving furiously beneath the water, right? Um, and that often can be, not always, but that can be the presentation of someone with OCD is that, um, they might be kind of quite well appearing and seem like they're kind of, they're, they're doing okay. Um, but a lot can be happening behind the scenes. Um, that also kinda reminds me of the context really mattering too. I'm sure you guys encountered this in your own clinical work. Um, someone can kind of come into your office, right, and they can not experience too much distress, um, or kind of, uh, or ostensible impairments, um, related to, for example, contamination kind of forms of OCD. Uh, and then you dig deeper and you find out that, um. much of their home life is organized around, um, feeding the OCD, right? Um, like they're, they're, they're kind of, they're wearing gloves when they're kind of, uh, [00:19:00] touching certain things. They might kind of suit up in something like, kind of like a, a barrier or like a hazmat equivalent of a hazmat suit before they go into their bedrooms. Um, and they might, and this happens so much, right? In relationships, again, OCD often kind of like gets people in the areas where it matters. Most of them like their relationships. And then if, if you're a kid, then parents will do everything they can to help their kid be less distressed, uh, and get through the day.And that unfortunately can mean kind of feeding the OCD, so it grows to the point where it's, it's again, they can be functional, but their life is organized around OCDs rules, right? Um, and those,Liz: I, uh, I was gonna say, John, and I think that's why this transition period to young adulthood in college, you tend, at least I've tended to see like a rise in symptoms because they're no longer in an environment where it's working for their OCD and now there's a lot of variables, um, that are not within their control that it, it, [00:20:00] it makes sense that it can kind of exacerbate the OCD symptoms.John Guerry: Yes. And you know, when we, um, you know, the curious, you know. sure this has come up in past episodes, right. So the, you know, what we're calling the college mental health crisis. Right. Which is very, very complicated of course. Right. Um, I'm sure you guys have delved into that quite a bit. Um, but just the idea, right, of of, of a young adult who has worked so hard, um, not just academically, but just in terms of their, their adjustments.Right. Uh, resilience kind of fortitude to do what it takes to be able to get into college once they get to college. Right. So that's a, that's. A version of how, um, emerging adults are really kind of suffering when the context changes pretty dramatically because a lot of the systems they had in place, um, that was trying to, in the service of helping them right, but actually was, uh, was really kind of [00:21:00] in the end doing somewhat of a disservice by making it harder for them to function without those accommodations and so different. Geographic location away from family, right. Dorm rooms, kind of with a roommate,Liz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: food, you name it. So many things are different. Um, and then that can really send a lot of, a lot of people into, into a tailspin.Liz: So we.John Guerry: I.College Is Fine Podcast: So we'veLiz: That come up. Okay. Said,College Is Fine Podcast: themes that can come up. Okay. So we'veLiz: you mentionedCollege Is Fine Podcast: canLiz: some of the,College Is Fine Podcast: Liz,Liz: um, what we thinkCollege Is Fine Podcast: of the,Liz: or morals,College Is Fine Podcast: what we think of as like scrupulosity or morality and worrying about. Um, not having a certain, you know, for instance, are they beingLiz: moralCollege Is Fine Podcast: Are they,Liz: philosophy,College Is Fine Podcast: of theLiz: a little bit aboutCollege Is Fine Podcast: scrupulosityLiz: you're,College Is Fine Podcast: We've talked a littleLiz: um, maybe we could do.College Is Fine Podcast: or tapping. Um, maybe we could just do a, a quick, almost like round robin orLiz: PopCollege Is Fine Podcast: what are some otherLiz: so that people can say, oh, okay.John Guerry: Yep.College Is Fine Podcast: so that people can say, [00:22:00] oh, okay. Like that's, um, start to notice it or feel like they understand a little bit more. Other things besides the kind of common. Contamination slash quote unquote neat freak type things.John Guerry: Right. Right. Yeah. And that, that's often the, the kind of the prototype of OCD that a lot of people think of, think of, but even that as, as I know you guys know,Liz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: so much variability in terms of kind of what contamination related OCD looks like. Um. You guys have, maybe you've talked about this in other podcast, but I know you guys know this, you know the two basic flavors of OCD, um, and not to make light of OCD, right?'cause we're trying really hard during this, this whole episode. Not to make light of it, but it's OCD, that is to say that, um, OCD is starts to whisper and then we will talk loudly and then we will. Uh, reach the decibel level of screaming, right? That something bad is gonna happen, um, unless kind of something is done right. So the classic [00:23:00] form of of, of that related to contamination might be, um, I'm gonna get contaminated by germs, um, and I'm gonna get sick. I'm gonna get other people sick. Uh, that's gonna lead me to, to be responsible for maybe I have kind of a, um.Liz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: who's immunocompromised or no people at school who are kind of especially susceptible to illness.And I just can't imagine, um, having that on my conscience to not do absolutely everything I can to take safeguard. Right. To protect kind of myself right. And others from the possibility of, of contamination, um, by germs and getting sick. Right? Um, so that's kind of an example of, you know, harm related OCD. then there's just so, or just right OCD, um, which is, uh, in, in, in many ways a trickier form of OCD. Um, we can, if it's helpful, we can get back to that one. Um, but just so, or just right OCDs. I don't know why things have to [00:24:00] beLiz: Mm-hmm.John Guerry: Um, it just feels just wrong if, if, if it's not this way, right? So if I, if I touch something with one elbow, I just feel like I gotta turn around and I gotta, I even it out and touch it with the other. There. Um, I feel like, um, kind of back, not sure if this is, um, with a particular concern with kind of Sarah's client, but the tapping right. That that could have been related to harm. Like, if I don't do this, these certain number of taps or in this certain way, or in this certain pattern or for this length of time, then something bad could happen, right?My girlfriend could get hit by the bus tomorrow, or it could be related to, it just feels like it, it feels extremely uncomfortable. It feels not just right, it feels just wrong, uh, if I don't do it this way. Um, but back to the contamination form of OCD, you guys probably see a lot of, um, just so contamination.And, uh, and oftentimes when I see that in my office, I know that it's gonna be a bit more of a slog often, right? So it's, it's not so much that, um, someone is worried about [00:25:00] aLiz: Hmm.John Guerry: a negative outcome, or a consequence of touching kind of dirt or germs and getting contaminated, things like that. It just the feeling of dirt, right?The feeling of having something kind of on my hands, right? Some kind of substance, whether it's dirt or kind of germs or kind of like shock on the, um, at school or whatever it is. Um, so that, that feeling of contamination, um, that canLiz: Well, there's, so, there's so many I feel like, um, that we're not gonna have a chance to go into entirely. But John, there's, so, there's a lot of resources. Is there any place that, like if somebody's listening to this and they like wanna get online, which we know everyone is Googling all the time, which also is a compulsion in OCD, um.Where would you, is there like one place that you've vetted and you really are like uncomfortable with people kind of going on? There might be a quiz or they can kind of look at the content to learn more about symptoms.John Guerry: Yeah, I would say just, just, uh, without hesitation, the international OCD [00:26:00] Foundation. Um, so that is probably, um, just the most helpful go-to starting place, right? Um, starting place, middle place, and, and even kind of ending place for so many resources for both, uh, clients, um, their families, parents, uh, and clinicians.So the, it's, it's a website that is, and an organization that is just really devoted to, um, to people who are, um, either suffering or think they might be suffering from symptoms of OCD. Uh, or we'll have kind of loved ones family members who kind of, who might as well, uh, as well as clinicians who are interested in learning more. Um, and so I, I, I think, I think that's, that's, I'm curiousLiz: I mean that's,John Guerry: but, um, but,Liz: I think it's a great resources resource for families and for patients. And they do have little like screeners and questions. And also if you're looking for a therapist who specializes in evidence-based treatments, which we've talked a lot about here on this podcast, it's a great place to look for therapists that [00:27:00] are in your area and maybe you're lucky and you go to a school in Philadelphia or outside Philadelphia, and you could potentially see John or someone.In the practice that he works at. But John, thank you so much for being on. This has been so helpful. All right.John Guerry: welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me. I.