Latest / CEOs and ABCs / Amber Wendover (Ex-Microsoft & Amazon Leader) A Conversation on: The Line Between Ambition and Self-Sacrifice

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Amber Wendover (Ex-Microsoft & Amazon Leader) A Conversation on: The Line Between Ambition and Self-Sacrifice · CEOs and ABCs

• 0:00
  Amber Wendover: I collapsed in my kitchen in front of my 17 year old daughter.
• 0:02
  Kevin Rice: 82% of executives report extreme exhaustion directly tied to burnout. In a 2017 peer reviewed study, they reported that burnout more than doubles your risk of physical illness such as heart disease, diabetes and depression. That's why I'm so excited to introduce my guest today, Amber Wendover. Amber is the founder of Thinking People, where she works with high profile executives and leadership teams from some of the world's most recognizable companies. Her experience stems from years in the corporate world where she held leadership roles at Microsoft and Whole Foods and eventually helped launch Amazon's Go product.
• 0:38
  Amber Wendover: But here's the thing. I was actually really sick for 10 or 15 years before I actually went to the ER.
• 0:44
  Kevin Rice: If you've been feeling the effects of burnout, struggling to show up for yourself, or wondering how to integrate yourself back into your life, this is going to be an amazing episode for you. Welcome to CEOs and ABCs. Real stories from execs who lead at work and show up at home. Career moves, parenting, wins and fails, and everything in between. I'm your host, Kevin Rice. Here's today's episode. Welcome back to CEOs and ABCs. My guest today is Amber Wendover. Amber, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:14
  Amber Wendover: Thanks for having me. Kevin.
• 1:16
  Kevin Rice: I'm excited to chat with you today. I think as I've done more research and got to know you a little bit, your core philosophy around it starts with you is so important and it's something that really resonates with me personally because if, you know, I kind of think back and reflect on my own story. There was so much martyrdom and so much self sacrifice and I was the one staying up till three in the morning and skipping workouts and sacrificing my sleep and time with my kids. And I imagine a lot of executives out there do the same thing and I'm sure a lot that you work with. So I would love to hear kind of this philosophy of it starts with you, like, where did that come from for you? And maybe you could just elaborate on it and kind of help us understand like everything that goes like the context that goes into that thinking.
• 2:07
  Amber Wendover: Yeah, there's two parts to this story. You know, I started my business and I knew philosophically that to be a good leader you have to start with yourself. So I have a background in, you know, understanding personalities and styles of people and I've read all the literature that says people mimic the highest person in the room. So I built my business around this premise of it starts with you, but Kevin, I didn't know what it meant until I collapsed in my kitchen in front of my 17 year old daughter and I literally almost killed myself because of burnout and exhaustion and working too much. So over the last just three years, I personally, it sounds similarly to you. Right. I just had this kind of moment where I needed to step and say, what are we doing with our careers? And this wasn't about you or the executives I work with. It was really about me. Like what am I doing with my career? And if retirement isn't on the horizon, what does it starts with you really means? And so I've been on my own for nine years, but I've really been thinking about the philosophy of it starts with you for the last three years because of me collapsing on my kitchen floor.
• 3:19
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Tell. I mean that's scary. Especially with your daughter there. What happened leading up to that?
• 3:24
  Amber Wendover: Oh my gosh, it was, it was, it was kind of horrible and, and people sometimes get cringed a little bit. But I. Nine days before I went to the er, I actually woke up in the morning and I had a business trip. I was going down to San Jose to work with Samsung and I actually had blood in my stool and I made a comment to my husband and he's like, you should really go to the doctor, Yammer. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will. And I made that doctor's appointment after work. But Kevin, after work for me was a three day trip to San Jose. I came back to Seattle to onboard a new client. It was December, so it was Christmas time and we had three holiday parties over the weekend. I was getting on an airplane at six in the morning on Sunday to fly to New York to deliver a keynote on Monday so I could make a doctor's appointment at the end of work, which would be eight days later. On Tuesday. I made the doctor's appointment, but they were completely booked until the middle of January. I collapsed in my kitchen on the Tuesday after I returned from New York.
• 4:29
  Kevin Rice: Wow. I probably would have done the exact same thing when I was in the thick of my career. Right. I would have looked at it and I would have thought, but it's Samsung. Like this is a huge client. I have to be there. It's a keynote presentation. I have to do this. I'll take care of myself just after I get through this. Because at the time work was my priority and everything else came second.
• 4:51
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. And being a consultant, it's money. So if I don't show up I don't get the daily rate for that work. And oh, by the way, I only have 25 executives waiting for me in San Jose or a room full of 500 people in New York. I didn't have a good backup plan for me. So the thought of canceling work. I have kids and we have a mortgage and we have bills and we have college. So it's like there's no way I was going to give up that much money to go to the doctor for something that, truth be told, I actually didn't think was that big of a deal. I mean, it was scary, but I'm like, ah, things happen. It's not that big of a deal. Nothing's going to happen to me because I'm invincible and I'm fairly young. So this, this can wait. This can be a January problem. No problem.
• 5:34
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, like, you know, the money side of it's important, but I just imagine, you know, being on stage, right. Something pulls you to that, right? There's, there's validation that comes from being on stage and speaking and then adding a really big client to your roster, getting the prestige of working with a brand like Samsung. I can see the thought process and I could see how I would have gone down the same path. Now, when you, you went to the er, what was the diagnosis? Like, you mentioned one symptom, but was there more indicators leading up to it?
• 6:06
  Amber Wendover: It was December of 2022 when this happened, and now we're what, at the end of 2026. So I have a lot of time to reflect on this. Looking back, there was a lot of symptoms, but in the moment, I didn't realize there were symptoms. So the cause of the collapse was actually extreme stomach cramping, like to the point that I physically couldn't stand up. I just had so much pain. But here's the thing. I was actually really sick for 10 or 15 years before I actually went to the ER. But my symptoms, exhaustion, like extreme fatigue. I was like, kind of gray. I was like, my skin was gray. Like if you actually look back at pictures, I lost the brightness in my eyes. I was really inflamed. I had put on a lot of weight. I wasn't exercising very well because, like, my bones and my joints hurt. But Kevin, all of that was masked because I was an up and coming corporate America woman with kids. And so when people would say, amber, are you tired? Of course I'm tired. Cause I'm working full time and I have two kids and. Are you exercising? No, I'm not going to the gym because I work full time and I have two kids. So in retrospect, I can see the destruction of my health. But in the moment, if you would have looked at me and said, hey, Amber, are you this sick? I would have said, absolutely no way. And it's also really easy to kind of say, you know, weight gain is because I'm in my mid-40s and I've had these kids and, you know, society actually kind of creates a trap for us that I don't think we really know what exhaustion and, you know, changes in our body and our health. And oh, by the way, Kevin, I was the best at having a cup of coffee in the morning, powering through my schedule, and if I was lucky, I would eat like a scoop of macaroni and cheese while I was like, you know, doing something with my kids. So I actually wasn't eating very well either for this whole time leading up
• 8:04
  Kevin Rice: to the ER or three cups of coffee, depending on how late the night before was.
• 8:08
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. And sleep, it was non existent because I would work, you know, I would do the kid thing and then my kids would go to bed at anywhere from, you know, 8:00 o'clock to 10:30, depending on their age. And then I would get back online and I would work until, you know, midnight or two in the morning because I was the girl, I got it done. And I loved Kevin being the girl that got it done. And it was kind of a champion title. Right. Because I also was the working mom of these two young kids. And like, you're not going to tell me I can't be successful at work and raise these two kids right?
• 8:41
  Kevin Rice: For me, it was always like, my identity has always been the guy who finds a way, whatever it is, like find a way. And that can be really difficult because some things you just need to accept and like, let go of. And it's really hard when that is your identity. Like things that logically I know I should just let go of because it doesn't serve me anymore. I still hold onto it and I try to fight and find a way. And so it's actually becomes like counterproductive to have that as your identity.
• 9:12
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. I don't know if we're going down a path that you want to go down. But I think identity is really tricky too, because if you would have asked me what is my identity, I would have actually said my identity was being a really good mom. I wouldn't have said my identity was my title or my corporate success or any of that. But in retrospect, I'll tell you what I did from the time my kids were kind of old enough to have a conversation. I remember telling them, you know, what's really important to me is that I'm a good mom. And when I pass away, I want you to stand up at my funeral and say, my mom was a really good mom because. And I asked my kids to give me this list. And this was like a reoccurring conversation. My kids are almost 21 and 22 right now, and I still ask them this to this day. But I realized, Kevin, that I was basically asking my kids for a to do list. And as long as I went down and checked off all of those things, I was like, yeah, I nailed it. I was planning my funeral speech based on the to do list, the tasks. And if you think about it, that's how I was actually kind of navigating my work. Give me a task, I'll get it done. And I won't just get it done like a hundred percent. I'll get it done with 150%. And so I realize now that my whole identity, it wasn't about being a corporate successful person or a mom. It was Amber gets it done.
• 10:35
  Kevin Rice: Right, Right. There's a lot to unpack there because I think in some ways that's a really great tool to be open and transparent and communicating with your kids and getting input in other ways. I feel like it kind of puts a lot of pressure on them. And depending on their age, that might be an appropriate pressure. Right. Like if I were to ask my 10 year old, how do I need to show up for you as a father, I wouldn't want him to essentially parent me and tell me how, you know, become my parent and teach me how to parent, you know. Now there are, there's some very sweet things that come from a conversation like that too. But then also this idea of like thinking about your eulogy, I've heard that from a other people before where they like, you know, really think about like end of life earlier in their life and that helps them kind of prioritize like what's actually important to them. So, yeah, I think, I think that's a really interesting way of like defining your identity and like bringing your kids into the experience, depending on how old they are.
• 11:31
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. And I think, I think too, it changes. And I'm not telling anybody to go do this, you know, your kids.
• 11:36
  Kevin Rice: I don't know. I think it's a good, interesting exercise. Right.
• 11:41
  Amber Wendover: But I'll give you some examples so my kids were like seven and eight. Things that were really important to them is that I was at the soccer game or I was at the dance recital, or I taught my daughter how to bake chocolate chip cookies, or I would be home for dinner. And then as things progressed and they got older, it was like, you know, it was really important that I was there for prom. I had the time to teach them how to drive a car, that I was there for the tough conversations. So it was never meant to be this like catastrophic, oh, mom is gonna die conversation. It was just little snippets of what it did. In all honesty, the positive of this is it helped me create kind of my negotiables and my non negotiables when it comes back to work. So, for example, I had a really strict non negotiable that I was gonna be at home for dinner pretty much every day of the week. Now I travel and stuff, so there's always the exception. But when I could, I prioritized dinner. So I would come home, we would have dinner, we would have eat dinner as a family and we would do whatever. But then, Kevin, I would get back online at, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11 o' clock at night and finish the work that I missed because I had to come home for dinner. And in hindsight I'm like, where did we get to corporate America where people can't come home and eat dinner at 6:30 at night? Like, how did we get there?
• 12:59
  Kevin Rice: I think a lot of people do. I think just most of us log back in at 8 or 9 o' clock and go till midnight and then we're sacrificing our sleep. Right. That's the first thing that goes for almost everybody. And I spend a lot of time in that kind of martyr space of like, I would do what it took to get the job done and at, you know, any expense. And usually the expense was to myself. Right. And I imagine that of the high level executives that you work with, that's probably a pretty common theme. And you know, so I'd love to hear like, you know, when you're working with executives, like, where do you start? Like, how do you help them get out of that, like martyr syndrome that I know so many executives are deeply ingrained in.
• 13:42
  Amber Wendover: I work with executives at big, big fortune, you know, 100 companies. And I work with executives that are in startup land trying to like build an IPO and get acquired and stuff. And I think, Kevin, that the tricky part is I'm not sure people can actually see it while they're in it. And I think that, you know, if you think about the old book, what got you here won't get you there. It's this whole premise of we do, we do, we do, we're an individual contributor, we succeed, we succeed, we succeed and it gets us on this pathway to success. And so a lot of what I do with executives right now is they, they make fun of me because I sound like a broken record. I'm like, what's the cost of that decision? And they'll tell me some business answer and I'm like, no, no, no, no. What's the cost to you for this decision? And if they don't understand the cost to them, it's not actually my place to tell them. But I can continue asking questions like, what's the cost? Is it worth it? How does that impact your family? Are you sleeping? Are you exercising? Is this sustainable? Are you worried about burnout? So I think, you know, in executive coaching world, they'll always tell us we don't solve the problems, we don't give the answers, but we ask really good questions to help somebody figure out the answer themselves. So that's what I spend a lot of my time doing, is asking people, what's the cost? And if people say it's worth it, I don't think it's you or me. It's not our place to say, really.
• 15:16
  Kevin Rice: Have you had moments in your own career, your own life, where you've had to really examine the cost of a new opportunity, a new client, a promotion, things like that, where you had to weigh the benefit to your career or the cost to your family, or vice versa too? Like maybe it was something that would really benefit your family, but it would sacrifice your career. Have you had a decision like that? What was the cost and how did you make a decision?
• 15:41
  Amber Wendover: I have this decision Inflex, I think every single day of my career right now, one that is. There's a couple that really stand out to me though. I spent some time working inside Amazon. I was a full time employee at Amazon and that was a great job. I was on the innovations team. We were working on the Just Walk out technology. So I don't know if you've seen like Amazon go, I remember it, I
• 16:04
  Kevin Rice: think they sunsetted it recently, like in the last couple of years.
• 16:07
  Amber Wendover: But they have, and they've morphed the technology around and whatnot. But I was on that team anyways. Long story short, shortly after that role, I was offered a really big executive role at Amazon to do Training and learning and development. My kids were in middle school at the time. And if you've watched Amazon stock, you know, this was, this was several years ago, Kevin, I would be on that trip, retired right now with the stock and the income. But I turned the job down. And it was a big conversation between me and my husband. And it was, it's the life changing, changing jobs. It really is, right? Like my husband, his name's Jeff, he's like, oh my, to be your pool boy and our big fancy house and money wouldn't have been an issue. Prestige wouldn't have been an issue. I would have been known. And I turned it down. And I turned it down because I had these middle school kids that had told me their non negotiable was me being at home for dinner and making it to these sporting events. And this is nothing against the people that make the decision to take the job, but I just personally didn't want a nanny to stay at home with my kids while I went out and did this big corporate job. And then I also worried about my husband, like what would his identity be? There's some conflict I think that potentially comes in that, with like roles. And so anyways, long story short, I turned it down. My kids ones have graduated college, now one's still in college. I would be lying, Kevin, if I didn't think about that job and tell you, hmm, I wonder what would have happened.
• 17:42
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Do you ever kick yourself? You think about you like, does it, do you wonder about it, like, how life would be different?
• 17:50
  Amber Wendover: I do. And I took that offer letter, I framed it. And whenever I need an ounce of like confidence, I look at that letter and say, you know what? I was good enough to get that letter. But Kevin, I think about it all the time because it's corporate America, right? And it's America. And I hate to say it, but prestige is, it's addicting. And money, a lot comes with money. And so I get it. I've walked in the shoes of the executives that I coach. And back to your point around identity, it's a big identity to get those jobs.
• 18:24
  Kevin Rice: What went into that decision? It sounds like, you know, talking to your kids was super helpful because you knew what was important to them. But when you're like weighing it, like, do you go through any sort of process of like, here's my criteria, here's how I know which direction to go. Was it something you just intuited and you felt into it or was it like a very logical process?
• 18:45
  Amber Wendover: No, it was a very off the cuff process. I'll tell you what, it's done though, and, and part of the reason why I think I'm actually a really good coach now is because I can go back to that part of my life, that, that real pivotal moment. And I help people now do an exercise where I'm like, separate the facts from the assumptions. And I also help people think about what do you have, what do you really need and what do you want? And I think if you're facing a big decision right now and you separate the facts and the assumptions of the decision and the what you have, what you want and what you need, I think it does give you kind of a logical framework now to work through some big decisions. But for me, honestly, all I can tell you is the mom got the best of me. And I was like, I love my children more than anything. And I didn't know this then, but in hindsight I think I would have collapsed in my kitchen floor faster, but I didn't have a logical explanation. I can't give you a logical explanation as to why I turned that job down. Because I. A bottle of wine, sometimes that's all you need. That's all you need in life. A bottle of wine and a husband too. You know, I think we would be naive if we didn't think about a family dynamics with a partner.
• 20:09
  Kevin Rice: Sure.
• 20:09
  Amber Wendover: And part of it I really do think is, you know, what's Jeff's identity and what did he want? And he has a pretty good career. And so are we gonna be these two parents that just go full throttle on our careers and then what happens with the kids? And we also had a dog, so even if we figured out the kids, it's like, what happens to the dog?
• 20:29
  Kevin Rice: How do you feel like that decision paid off at home with your family and with your kids? It sounds like it was something that was a heart centered decision. How has this played out for, for you? How has it benefited, you know, your family dynamics?
• 20:45
  Amber Wendover: I think it gave me conviction and I think that as you're going through your career, you have inflection points regularly, daily, weekly, monthly, every performance review. We all have decisions. And I think this is actually where it starts with you was born. I do believe this because when I turned down the job, I was like, okay, how am I going to start my own business and how am I going to make a bigger impact? And so it helped me have conviction and confidence. It helped me define success for what success meant for me, which I think is really, really important. And this is also not fair. Because I kind of know a little bit of the ending of the story because of the age of my kids. But what my kids will tell me now is I am a role model to them of making hard decisions for what's in their best interest. And I think happiness is something that is really, really confusing in the world because I think we confuse happiness with loyalty. I'll say yes to the norm. I'll do what's expected of me. I won't cause conflict, I won't speak up. But happiness, I actually think, is knowing your non negotiables and having the conviction to make a decision that makes you happy. I would have never known that in this Amazon decision that my kids would come back and say, hey, you know what? I'm a role model for them to make decisions about their happiness. But I think that's happened, and I think it's given me some credibility in my job because I can talk to executives and I 100% understand the enormous pressure that they're under when you're talking
• 22:19
  Kevin Rice: about happiness and confusing it with something. I started thinking back just in the moment to kind of when I was going through my own burnout phase, where it was like I was working 80 hours a week, I was traveling, I was raising two kids as a solo father. At the time, the pandemic had just started. So, like, everybody's going into lockdown. I was totally shut down, burnt out. I talk about it as robot mode, but if somebody were to ask me if I was happy at that time, I would have said yes. But it. It wasn't because I was actually feeling happy, because I wasn't really feeling anything at all. But I would have. Like, in retrospect, I think I was confusing happiness with, like, obligation, sense of duty, fulfillment. Right. I wouldn't necessarily say I was happy, but I would say I felt proud that I was taking care of my obligations to my family, financially at least. Like, I wasn't really doing it very well emotionally. But to my company, to my family, I was like being a responsible father and man. But that's not the same thing as being happy.
• 23:22
  Amber Wendover: It's not. And I think there was a class that I would put back in high school or in college, like in business school. I really think there's something about, like, the definition of happiness and joy and fulfillment, too. Right. And kind of circling back to the conversation about what did I want my kids to say when I pass away. I've also rethought about legacy because I think often people will think about legacy like the Capital L, the tombstone legacy. And really, legacy is lowercase L. It's the tiny little things that you do every single day and the impact that you have on people and the impact that we have on people. You might not even understand or know the impact that you've had on someone. Like, someone listening to us talk today on your podcast. We might touch someone's life, and you and I might never know how we help them. But I think that's really cool, and that's part of, like, my brand now and my definition of happiness. Because, Kevin, what I want more than anything when I pass away. And I promise I'm not morbid. I'm not thinking about, like, I'm gonna die or anything, but, like, I guess I am thinking about I'm gonna die. But I would love for someone that I have touched their life that I didn't know. They just randomly show up at my funeral, and they say, amber had an impact on my life that she never knew I had. And so I've kind of refocused, framed my definition of happiness. Joy, impact. It's not about the corporate title anymore. It's not about the money. Of course I need to pay my mortgage. But I. I think that if. If executives and leaders and managers and all of these people that we're talking, all the people in the world, right. I think if we could get to the core of what brings you joy, what helps you be fulfilled, where you get personal satisfaction from. What are the things that make you uniquely you, and how do you capitalize on that? If you take that part of you to work, I believe you're going to be a tremendous leader, and I believe your company is going to be really successful. I believe that with my whole heart. And that's what I think it starts with you really means.
• 25:25
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, that's amazing because, yeah, like I said, there's a difference even with fulfillment and happiness. Right. There's a lot of times where I would tell you in my life, I was fulfilled, but I don't know that I was happy. And I think happiness comes from doing things that you enjoy. Interest, hobbies, you know, spending time with your kids. But, like, for me, a lot of the stuff that is, you know, fulfilling doesn't necessarily make me happy. It's like almost like a different experience. And I'm sure a psychologist could better explain it than me, but those are different prongs of self, right? There's, like, your health, there's taking care of your joy. And, you know, for me, I had to kind of rediscover what makes me happy after I kind of went through a burnout stage and where I started. And this was some guidance from a personal development coach that I worked with who was amazing for me. He was like, what did you do as a kid? Like do the things you used to do as a kid. And so I found myself out buying Magic the Gathering cards and I was like building Legos with my kids and like doing the things that I used to love as a kid. And I was like, wow, as an adult, I still love these things. And that started to bring me happiness in addition to the fulfillment because like we are, you know, multifaceted humans and there's, there's a lot to having a holistically fulfilled, like, you know, life.
• 26:48
  Amber Wendover: I love it. And I also don't want to be naive and say that like, you know, happiness is you doing something than doing your corporate job right now. But a lot of the things that I coach leaders that I'm working with right now is very similar to what your personal development coach said. Because I think we forget that fulfillment is something that genuinely brings us joy. It can be a 20 minute walk, it can be a 15 minute peloton ride, it can be a 60 minute yoga class, it could be cooking a home cooked meal, whatever it is to you, right? There's things it could be playing with Legos with your son. And, and I think that as executives and middle managers, really, I think we forget to bring that time into our day. And what would it, what would your day be like if you woke up in the morning and you did not check your email right out of the gate, but you grabbed a cup of coffee, you sat in your front room, you watched the sunrise, you went for a walk, you played with a dog. I don't know what you're going to do because I don't know what makes you happy. But if we all did that right and kind of grounded ourself, then you go to work neutral, or could I say even a little bit happier because you did something to take care of yourself. And now all of a sudden your work day is just a tad bit better because you focused on your health yourself first. And then what would happen after work if you paused, even if it's the car ride home or the walk from your, you know, your office to your kitchen for some of us that are working remote and you said, I'm going to take this 15 minutes or 20 minutes and I'm going to now think about what do I want to go in my home life like what intention do I have in my home life and what would make me happy tonight? I think these are just slight little mind shifts that we can all consciously make that actually help us be better people. And therefore we're better leaders and better parents.
• 28:42
  Kevin Rice: What's the pushback? I imagine you probably get pushback when you're coaching executives on this and they're like, I don't have time for that. First thing, I've got to check emails because they're coming in from overseas or east coast or west coast and, you know, I got to rush off to work and then I need the evenings and, and so I imagine the pushback is I don't have time for that.
• 28:58
  Amber Wendover: That is the pushback. I don't have time. And I think time is an illusion. And I think half of our deadlines, they're, they're formed out of habits. And I also, I'm, I'm a, I'm a global facilitator. I have people. I wake up and, you know, the other side of the world is emailing me. I have someone that I work with that lives in New York. So my inbox is also really busy in the morning. But if you actually think about it, most of us know, hey, Amber's on the West Coast. And so the expectation of me responding at 5am or 6am Most of the time it's not the expectation of the person sending me the message, it's my own expectation and it's a habit that I've created. It's so convenient for my alarm to go off on my phone, which I changed that, by the way. I don't have my alarm on my phone anymore, but I used to have my alarm on my phone. So I would touch my phone to turn my alarm off. And guess what? My emails are right there. And guess what? It was a boost of confidence and identity because all of these people needed me overnight. Kevin. It's validation. So I get to start my Checklist right at 6 o' clock in the morning and oh, busy me, I don't have time for coffee, I don't have time to work out because these people need me. Well, the people still need me, but is there real, do they need me at 6am or do they need me at 8am? So I challenge us all to think about our habits that we've created. And what's your motivation for responding to that email at 6am? For a lot of us, I think it's validation that we're needed. Now I know there's important things, right? I do Work with companies where things really happen and you have the 6am crisis. I think that's the exception. I don't think there's a 6am crisis every single day. And if there is, there's probably something wrong with your business. And we need to look at the operation of your business as to why you have 6am emergencies every single day.
• 30:43
  Kevin Rice: Right. Hi, Kevin here. If you're enjoying this conversation and you know someone else who's working to grow in their career while staying present at home, I'd really love it if you could share this episode with them. It's one of the best ways you can help us and help more leaders build their careers in a way that they're proud of without missing the moments that matter most. I like what you said about getting an old school alarm clock off your phone, right? That's a great example of like just changing a dynamic. Like creating a forcing function, I guess is what I'm looking for, but it's creating a forcing function so that you don't reach for your phone every day. I had an example that was kind of similar to that in my own life where it was like there was a few months I was going through some personal stuff and I fell into a rut of like watching TV at night. And that's like the worst thing that you can do for so many reasons because it's like super unproductive. It like, you know, biologically does not prepare you for bed. And I just like, I kind of fell into this habit, right? And like habits get ingrained pretty fast. And I was like doing this for a few months and like, TV shows are so good, but it's just not the best use of my time and I couldn't figure out how to get out of it. Well, at the time my son was kind of having like nightmares and he wanted to sleep in bed with me. And so I was like, all right, like you can sleep in bed with me, that's fine. And then I realized, oh, when he sleeps in bed with me, he goes to bed at 8:30. I go to bed at 8:30 and now there's no way for me to watch the television shows. And so then all of a sudden it just like broke that habit for me after a few weeks. And like now I just don't do it anymore and I go to bed at 9 o' clock and I start my kind of bedtime routine at 8. And so that way I'm like prioritizing sleep and I get up at 4:30 in the morning. But that's my sleep window. And so for me, that was a great forcing function. I'm curious for people that you work with, executives, startup founders, so much pressure, so little time, they've developed these habits. How do you help them change the habits? Because it's great. You could have the solution for them. Bake time into your day to prioritize yourself, be more intentional, just have quiet time. But how do you get them to like actually make the shift?
• 33:00
  Amber Wendover: I love your story. It just, it makes me so happy and it reminds me of like habit stacking and you take a non negotiable, which is your son who really needs you, and then you did something for him and you, you stacked a new habit and you created a new habit. The way I think about this at work is I think about it as like the five second pause or the five minute pause. And I worked with an executive once, he's actually executive at Microsoft, and, and this is his story, but he told me, so I said, what brings you comfort? So I asked the question, you know, what, what brings you comfort? So when you think back even to your childhood, what brings you comfort? And his answer to me is he remembered being a little boy with those bears that have clothes on him. And he would lay in his bed at night and he would rub the corduroy pants of his little teddy bear. So he's like, this teddy bear. The thought of this teddy bear in corduroy brings me comfortable. And so I'm like, okay, how do you bring that into your life? Like, how do you bring that comfort feeling into your life as an executive, you know, and your busy schedule? So long story short, we came up with a solution and I think this was brilliant. His wife was a seamstress, so she sewed corduroy in the pocket of his pants. And so every time he walked to a meeting, it is socially acceptable to put your hand in your pocket. He would put his hand in his pocket and he would rub the corduroy. Every time he walked out on stage, he would put his hand in his pocket and he would rub the corduroy. And that was the birth of this five second pause. Like it really has. So it's like, what is something that brings you comfort? It could be a picture on the screenshot of your phone, it could be a memory. I actually engraved it starts with you on my bracelets. So it's like, how do you think about something that you can do really quickly at work that can bring you mindfulness? Because if you think about like meditation and yoga and I know this isn't about religion, and I'm not Buddhist, so I don't want to pretend I understand it. But a lot of religions, it's really about mindfulness, and it's quieting your mind around you. And so that executive putting his hand in his pocket, it quieted his mind for a second. Me looking at my bracelet quiets my mind for a second. So I think you really do not need an hour to go for a run. I think it's great to go for a run. Don't get me wrong. Go to the gym, do all of those things. But I can't be at a work meeting and say, sorry, I'm going to go take a hot shower, you know, put on some candlelight, listen to a sound bath, and I'll come back to this meeting. But, Kevin, I can. I can look at my bracelet or I can put my hand in my pocket, or I can grab a warm cup of coffee to ground me in those couple of seconds and say, okay, I'm back and I have a new perspective or a quieter mind to work through this. This problem or this conversation.
• 35:47
  Kevin Rice: I love that. What a creative way of coming up with, like, a solve to that problem of not feeling comfortable. It's a great example. I think for me, it's just that kind of, like, pattern interrupt to change your state. One of the things that is very personal to me is like, if I'm in a funk or if I'm in a bad mood, I can put on the song Come and Get yout Love by Redbone and, like, instantly come out of it. Like, just instantly. And my kids know it. Like, probably 50% of our dance parties. Like, if. Like, if we're all in a little bit of funk, getting ready for school, I'll just pause breakfast, put that song on, There's a dance party. We'll do it for, like, 10 minutes. And it. And, you know, it completely shifts the dynamic of the morning. And now all of a sudden, instead of fighting them to get ready on time, they're, like, packing their own bags. Everything goes smoother. So sometimes you just gotta, like, interrupt the current state you're in or the pattern you're in. And, yeah, like, get creative and find the way.
• 36:49
  Amber Wendover: I love that. And, you know, when you think about, like, iPhones or technology, how you can change the ringer and the sound for all the people, it reminds me of. I have this one executive who was telling me he changed the ringtone, and it was like this pretty aggressive ringtone because it was a partner of his that he didn't like. And I'm like, okay, if this is a person that you don't really like talking to, why are you putting such this aggressive ringtone for him? He's like, because it works me up, right? I know I have to go in and be macho. And I'm like, what if we flip that? And ironically, he did. He put his ringtone more to a tune that kind of brought him happiness, and that changed his perception going into answering the phone of this partner that he has to work with. But he doesn't really like. So I think, you know, your dance party, you know, we're all people, and at the end of the day, all we really truthfully need to do is neutralize our emotion and maybe neutralize it to make it slightly positive, like just a little bit more positive. And then you have some energy to go into that tough conversation or give the performance review or all the hard things that come throughout our day at work.
• 37:59
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, you mentioned a couple, but I'd love to dive more into some of the tools and frameworks that you work with your executives or even like, you apply to your personal life and your family in supporting them for, you know, avoiding burnout, being able to succeed in their career and still like, show up at home for their family. You mentioned habit stacking. That's one that's huge for me. Like, typically if I'm working, I'm on a treadmill. If I'm working out, it's with a friend or with my kids. Any new interests or hobbies that I want to get into are typically ones that my kids got to want to get. Otherwise, it just doesn't work for me. You know, I don't play golf because my kids don't want to play golf, but I do surf because I can get my kids to surf with me. What are some of the, like, frameworks or tools that you work with executives? Like, if there's any short stories you could tell?
• 38:45
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. So one of my, like, favorite activities to do and actually you might even want to do it now. All you have to do is grab piece of paper. Or you could do this in your head too. Think of a line on one end as a zero and on the opposite end is a ten. Zero is not bad. So you know that straight face emoji where you're just kind of like, eh, like things are just kind of fine. That's zero. So it's really important that zero is not bad. 10 is great. Super, super happy emoji. Think about all of the Roles that you play in your life and start putting them on this line. Right. So I. Okay, I'm a mom, so I'm gonna put myself like, kind of like maybe like a 7 or an 8.
• 39:23
  Kevin Rice: So are you rating yourself how good you're performing in this role?
• 39:26
  Amber Wendover: Yeah, from a 0 to 10. So mom, you know, 7 or 8. Executive coach, probably 8. Facilitator, probably 8.5. Kind of health focused. I actually give myself about a 9.5 because I was in the ER. Right. A cook for dinner, give myself like a three. A friend, give myself a five. The committee for our HOA. I'm giving myself a zero because I'm so disconnected from our HOA right now. Right. But you can just think of all of these different roles that you play. A manager, an executive. So fill up your line. I will actually walk executives through this. Now imagine where the 5 is. I'm going to tell you that a 5, Kevin, is an A. We almost automatically assume that a 10 is an A. A five is an A. So anything that's a five or a bluv. You know what, you're probably, probably doing a pretty decent job at it because
• 40:21
  Kevin Rice: we're all critical anyways. We're probably all like self assessing lower than we actually are.
• 40:26
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. And I think the first thing that we can do as individuals is stop going out in life thinking that we have to perform every role that we play at a 10 and just give yourself permission that a 5 is an A. And it's more than. More than enough, too.
• 40:43
  Kevin Rice: Maybe some of those you look at and you're like, I'm a zero as an HOA board member. Maybe I shouldn't even be doing this in the first place.
• 40:50
  Amber Wendover: Exactly. So anything below a five, you get to decide, okay, what, if anything, do you want to do with this? Right. So, like, yeah, I need to get myself out of the HOA committee because it doesn't give me joy. Before I collapsed in the kitchen, I would say exercise was probably like a negative 10. You notice I gave it the highest mark right now because I fully believe that without me, none of these roles that I play in my life will exist. So I was forced to reprioritize my health. That's not everybody's story, but I think once you get above the five, then you can start saying, okay, is this aligned to my purpose? Is this aligned to my legacy? Is the cost of what I'm doing good for me? You notice I gave myself as a coach and a facilitator. I'm in the sevens and the eights. I'm really good at my job, but I've actually released. I don't have to be perfect. And I think if all of us could reposition our Life, that A5 is an A, I think that would help us tremendously. And the things that are around a three or a four. Okay, well, what has to. If they're important to you, what has to happen to get them to the five? And I think a lot of things that hang out below the five, it's the hard conversation with an employee that we're actually avoiding. It's the friction with our spouse that we just don't want to address. It's not wanting to call the principal and deal with whatever's going on with our kid. It's not wanting to go make this hire of somebody that's being really difficult. But if you kind of give yourself permission to say, you know what? That's not my responsibility today. I don't have to make that decision today. Maybe the timeline is just made up because somebody says this has to be done by 5 o' clock tonight, but does it really? So I think it gives you this ability to kind of sort your roles and make sure that they're aligned to what is important to you.
• 42:42
  Kevin Rice: That's the intentionality that I think we all need to be bringing to our personal life. Because I've never met any executives that aren't incredibly intentional and present at work. But the challenge is, can you do that at home, too? And that's where I think, you know, a lot of people I've talked to, a lot of people I've had on the show have kind of fallen short. Is like, they don't bring the same level of intentionality to their home life as they do in their career.
• 43:08
  Amber Wendover: Yeah. And half of the tools that we use in our career, they work at home and vice versa. Because it's teams of people working together. Your home is just your team of your family or your friends or whatever. Right. I'll also say, I think this is really interesting and insightful. My daughter told me she's. She's my youngest. She. She must have told me maybe she was a freshman in high school. I don't quite remember. It doesn't really matter. But she said. I said, do you regret that you didn't have a stay at home mom? And she said, no, I loved that you weren't home all the time. And I was expecting her to tell me all the bad things.
• 43:41
  Kevin Rice: She's like, I got into all kinds of trouble. Yeah.
• 43:44
  Amber Wendover: I Had a party, I did those stuff and she said, you taught me and Jake independence. And so I think, you know, there's this friction point. Kevin around should we be working parents or stay at home parents or the nannies? All these roles have a place, right? They, they have incredible nannies that they've had in their life. They've went to the YMCA aftercare program. I know people that have incredible stay at home parents and they are well rounded kids too. So this isn't like a, this isn't meant to be a war against, should be a working parent or a stay home parent. That's not at all what I'm trying to do. But I think if you think about your family, we're really trying to teach these kids independence. We're trying to teach them to be good collaborative people. We're trying to teach them communication skills. We're trying to teach them to take risks and to have grit and to do the big audacious things. And guess what? You as a leader, I think you're trying to get your team to do those same things. So I don't think we have to divide this. We're using the same tools on both sides of our world, I guess is what I would say.
• 44:46
  Kevin Rice: I love that. And if you were to look at all of your experience working with high performance executives or even from your own career of, you know, you were at Whole Foods and Amazon and Microsoft, you've worked, you know, a lot of the big Fortune 500s. What have those skills Skills has translated or have you intentionally translated into your parenting and like what has helped you show up better for your kids at home because of that professional career?
• 45:13
  Amber Wendover: I could almost pinpoint my career and take one learning from every big milestone. Being at intel taught me process, structure and routine. At Microsoft. The thing that I learned as a full time employee quite honestly was political savviness and negotiations with people and life is a really big negotiation. So I negotiate all the time.
• 45:32
  Kevin Rice: Especially with toddlers.
• 45:34
  Amber Wendover: Yes.
• 45:35
  Kevin Rice: Yeah.
• 45:35
  Amber Wendover: With neighbors. Right. With people that can help you out with what are my negotiables and my non negotiables? How do you communicate all of this?
• 45:43
  Kevin Rice: My almost 7 year old thinks everything is a starting point for a negotiation. Even and especially the word no, it doesn't mean no to him. It's a starting point for a negotiation.
• 45:54
  Amber Wendover: It's the beginning of a yes, dad. Yeah. You know, I think Microsoft is a complex organization. I worked for Insights, learning and development for some time. It was all about personalities and I, and I really learned that if you understand someone's personality, you can match and mimic, and it becomes a really good influencing tool and connection tool. And kind of like the chameleon. Like, how do you go through and just kind of connect with people that are very different than you? And I learned a lot about diversity of thought. I worked at Whole Foods, and I would say, hands down, the thing I took away from Whole Foods is it's okay to say I love my colleagues. Like Whole Foods before it was bought by Amazon, it is a community of people. They put the grocery store in a community and they decorate that store to match the community. And during crisis and everything that happens in your life, the number one thing you need is food. And so there's a resourcefulness, there's a community, and it is okay to actually love your colleagues, just like it's okay to love your family. We didn't talk about it much, but I worked for a nonprofit where I supported training and leadership development for 29 children's hospitals. Go work in the ER department of a children's hospital. You'll learn very quickly what is a crisis.
• 47:09
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. And gratitude for life.
• 47:12
  Amber Wendover: Yes. And so I think, you know, having that experience is. Helped me, like, really think about is this business situation, is it really a crisis or not? We talked a lot about Amazon, you know, big, audacious goals, like finding them, going out on them. And then I think now, like, as my own practitioner, practitioner relationships, like, I can't do my job without putting myself out there, meeting people. I think I met you, I saw you through LinkedIn. So I think relationship and networking are really important. So if I took all of those and do nothing else as a mom, if I pass those skills down to my kids, I think they have a pretty dang good start in their career.
• 47:51
  Kevin Rice: Well, for any, like, working parents that are kind of, like, listening right now, and they're like, in the thick of it, big career, not enough time in the day, not taking care of themselves. What do you want them to walk away from? This conversation with?
• 48:05
  Amber Wendover: It starts with you. No matter what situation you're going into, whatever it is, it starts with you.
• 48:11
  Kevin Rice: Amber, I tremendously enjoyed this conversation. I think you brought to light a lot about self sacrifice and the cost of self sacrifice and the fact that we all get to make a decision on, like, how far do we want to take this before our circumstances get really bad or our health deteriorates? You know, we can make the decision to prioritize ourselves. And to your core philosophy, it starts with you.
• 48:37
  Amber Wendover: I agree. It starts with you.
• 48:39
  Kevin Rice: If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. CEOs and ABCs is all about helping you grow in your career and show up at home. We have many more amazing guests coming up, so tap, follow and stay tuned.