Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: David Archer

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Guest: David Archer · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you. David Archer is an anti racist psychotherapist from Montreal, Canada. In addition to being trained as a clinical social worker, he is also a registered couple and family therapist. Though mindfulness, intersectional feminism, and critical race theory inform his philosophic approach, he works full time in private practice using EMDR, brain spotting, EFT, and other mind body strategies, which utilize memory reconsolidation.
• 1:28
  Areas of interest relate to working with individuals who have suffered from PTSD, racial trauma, minority stress, addictions, and eating disorders. Mr. Archer is an ally of LGBTQ, Black, indigenous, and oppressed people of color around the world. Welcome, David Archer.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. The name is David Archer. I'm an anti racist psychotherapist from what we call Montreal, Canada, which is actually the term that we wouldn't. It's more appropriate for it is actually and that's the name that we give to the the land of the Iroquois. The people who came from the Iroquois Confederacy.
• 2:11
  This is the name that they would actually consider it. And it's just really important to to say that because we have to know the land that we're actually on. We have to to, I I guess, take some time to decolonize our understanding of even what a country is and even what our people are, race, and all of these other things. And my purpose today is also to speak about what's called a anti racist psychotherapy. So I wanted to express gratitude.
• 2:46
  Thank you so much, Emma, for allowing me to have this conversation and to share this this space with with you and with your audience.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you coming on to have this conversation, and I already love what you've shared because I am located in Oklahoma, which is in the middle of The United States, and it is an area that was tribal land by reassignment and then still taken anyway. And so the congress even just passed a law that it really was a mistake and that the land really is native land after all. And so, like, two hundred years later, they have just now passed this law and everyone's sort of scrambling, what does it mean? What does it mean? And it means the same thing it's always meant that this was indigenous land that was basically stolen.
• 3:49
  And here that trauma, that historical trauma that gets passed down shows up in so many ways and there are such simple ways to respect that no matter what your culture is or what your history is to learn from it and to improve upon that, to heal from it, and even even in small ways. Like what's coming to mind honestly is that we have children adopted from foster care, and so in Oklahoma we cannot even cut their hair because it's such a part of native culture to not cut the hair. So no children in foster care in Oklahoma, you cannot cut their hair. And so that's one way it shows up. But the other way, just sharing where I'm at so that you sort of know my context too and where I am.
• 4:41
  Also near to us, near to where we live is Tulsa where the site of the race riots and was it 1921 I think? And an entire community was destroyed and over over lies and and prejudice and racism and their terrible, terrible things. And So that's my physical location. My emotional location is that, or who I am as a person, just so that I want to be fully transparent as much as I can so that we have a good foundation for our conversation. Two of our daughters that we adopted from foster care, two of our daughters have brown skin.
• 5:35
  They are biracial. And one of them, the older one, we took for her coming of age trip. We took her back to Africa last year to meet some of her tribe that we had been able to be connected with through different ways. And that was such a powerful, powerful experience. People listening to the podcast did hear a little bit about that conversation.
• 6:00
  And my daughter's also come on to talk just a little bit about what the protests and things this year have been like from her perspective. So they there's a little bit of that context. But when you presented at the conference with ISSTD about marginalized communities and societal trauma, these were such huge issues and there's so much that needs to be known and that's why I wanted to invite you on the podcast.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Thanks. I really I appreciate that. And I think that in 2020, there's this increased level of racial consciousness. But just like as you discussed or what happened in Tulsa is that it's it's just important to know that yes there's a higher level of consciousness at this time. But there's a certain thing called homeostasis.
• 6:54
  What is it that's maintaining the balance? And so as we are seeing an increased level of racial consciousness, we're also seeing what some would call a white lash or more a backlash from the just from the, I guess, the institution or the structure of white supremacy. So because what happened in Tulsa has also happened in Canada as well. So currently in Canada there's over in in Nova Scotia and also in The Maritimes right now, a lot of racial turmoil and what's going on is that white supremacy does not like competition. So the destruction that happened in Tulsa is very sym it's symbolic, but it's also a pattern.
• 7:37
  Is that whenever there are certain types of racial gains, then there oftentimes is this equalizing factor that takes place, this thing to maintain homeostasis, to return back to balance. So it's not unlike when you're trying to make a change in a family. The reason why you need to have everybody who's a part of the family to work together is because some people can benefit from the discord from the dysfunction. So sometimes the response to racial progress is often race riots, And many race riots were oftentimes in The States. They were initiated by white people.
• 8:13
  And this is in part because there's a fear of of elimination. There's like this steep down fear that something bad will happen if everybody wins at the same time. But that's the reason why I look at white supremacy as being the glass cannon. That in a way, even if it targets people who are from different backgrounds, locations, the impact of the blast ends up shattering the force itself. And so even white people suffer under this this curse of white supremacy.
• 8:46
  This idea that we need to have white supremacy and that we need to have black suffering so that we can preserve this myth racial superiority. So, there's links between all of us and I think it was it's really important for me to to speak about anti racism in psychotherapy because I look at a lot of the the problems that are going on as being a result of trauma and even a result of unprocessed trauma specifically. So, that's why it's so important for us not to not to lose steam. That we're so close to making it so that we're all seen as fully human. We're so close to making it so that we're all treated with dignity and respect.
• 9:30
  And this is why this the idea of black lives matter. It's not that black lives matter only in only in the in June 2020 is that, you know, black lives matter so that all lives can eventually be treated with dignity and respect.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: I just want to soak in those words because there's so many layers to it, whether it's as an individual or my own family or my own community or right where I am or how I vote or what's happening in the greater nation. We have elections this week, tomorrow, tomorrow's the day and in the greater world in different ways there's there's so many applications to what you've shared already. How do you pack all of that in to the context of therapy?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Thing is that therapy itself is a it's an interesting endeavor, therapy. It's because like the the therapist there's it's like as if there's this idea that the therapist has the answers. And because my approach is more like a EMDR and brain spotting and trauma informed and all. More of like what's happening in the body. It's kind of like the therapist can't really know the answer in advance for what will be the inevitable process that's going to lead to the resolution of trauma.
• 10:55
  It's like we set up a certain framework and we know that if we use the adaptive information processing model, if we use systemic therapy, if we use IFS, if we use any of the other forms of therapy, we know that something is likely to to take place but we don't always know what will be that specific session that will lead to the complete resolution of everything. And so I say that just to to answer the question is that for me it's as much as possible. It's about being present with the client. For me, it's about being compassionate to myself and also, for me, it's not so much the the the end goal but more the the journey that we undertake like during the the process of reconsolidating these issues. But also the approach that I take takes into account the fact that it's not only like kind of, like, why things are happening.
• 11:55
  It doesn't we don't always have to be so focused on the past. We have to have an understanding of the past, but we also have to be present focused as well. And so while I may not have an answer specifically for kind of like how things will go, it's more about from day to day, how can we make it so that the person I'm talking to can kind of see themselves as awesome as they actually are and how therapists themselves can kinda stay focused, like, learn a deeper appreciation for life and also, yeah, that the therapists themselves can preserve themselves when there's a whirlwind of other things on the news every single day, right? I try my best to just stay present and also I feel that the more that I try to take care of myself, then it makes me a better in a better position to take care of others as well.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: What does that look like staying present but being aware and compassionate with yourself that you don't have all the answers? And, again, for example, just for conversational purposes, because I'm I'm trying to think and trying to apply and the listeners know our family a little bit and so I'm trying to put it in context to wrap around and make it really really applicable. Like, we we never plan to adopt for example. But when these particular children cannot go home then then here we are and they have different disabilities, they have different biological families and it gives so many examples of people's assumptions around us. So my oldest daughter and my middle daughter are the ones that both have brown skin, but it is my middle daughter and my youngest daughter who are half sisters.
• 13:46
  They have the same mother, but they have different fathers. But because the other two have brown skin, people assume that they are sisters and that we got them as a pair. And that's not only not how it happened, but we also didn't get them. Like, they're not happy meal toys. Collecting children.
• 14:06
  That's that's not how it works. And then
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly right.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: At the same time so so now I have biracial children that have landed in my home and if I were in charge of restoration and restorative care and trying to even as much as it's safe and possible to do so, we maintain connections with their biological families but I'm not allowed to send them back, right? And so I'm caught in my own ethical dilemma because I think if I were in charge of foster care this is what it would look like. But I can't at this moment change those systemic things. But in the middle of it, being present, then I can do some things while I can't change other things. I can't change that I am white or that I grew up not even in The United States or that I have a different disability than one but the same disability as another when we both have cochlear implants.
• 15:08
  And, those kinds of issues like what I can't change, but what I can change are things like making sure that they have black baby dolls and making sure that they have black books and picture books and not just on the cover but written by black people and like taking our daughter to Africa. All of those
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: things Yes. Definitely.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I agree. But all of those things are connections to culture. Like, I can do so much, but I also know that I can't like, I I don't want to undo anything and that this isn't, like, a whole white savior scenario. Like, that's not what happened and it doesn't fix things. Like, those are their issues to wrestle with and learn.
• 15:54
  Right. There are some things I can do, like and I can work really hard to learn how to braid their hair. But also, the woman that has braided my oldest daughter's hair since she was four is still important to her even though she got adopted. And so we can still keep going back to that woman and let her keep that part of her community even if she can't live at home. You know, so so I'm just I'm just trying I know those are all personal examples and not the therapy setting, But just for context of I hear so often people say
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: It's okay.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I can't change this or this part isn't my like, it's almost like, we talk about trauma and dissociation.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Almost like this dissociation from society, like an external dissociation. External dissociation. How do you make that present for people to be aware in the therapy setting of what they're acknowledging or dismissing and don't even realize?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: That's a great question. Alright. That's that's a great question. Let me let me try to unpack this thing, okay? So, it's just to say that I think even your personal example is a therapy question because it's like therapy, the, I guess, like, the framework that we're working in in the psychotherapeutic context is the personal.
• 17:12
  I also believe that the the personal is professional. I I don't believe that a professional is able to be neutral. I think that anybody who has been socialized in an American or North American environment that like automatically we have culture. In Canada, it's a little strange though, okay? Is that sometimes you'll speak to you'll speak to some people and they'll say, they don't have culture.
• 17:42
  And then after you say, but, okay, so is your culture the same as like in Texas? Then, be like, no, no, no. Okay, like, like I I do have culture. And it's like, it's only when we're confronted with the other that we're able to reflect on on who on who we are. And it's it's a very fascinating thing.
• 17:59
  So I kind of look at it that because race itself is a social construction. And that means that it's it's not really real. And it also means that 's a guy named Carl Linnaeus, like, and I like the either the fifteenth or could be the sixteenth or seventeenth century back then. So there is an individual who decided that there are separate races. And this was not a real scientific it wasn't designed for to advance science.
• 18:30
  It's more designed to advance colonization. Because the thing is that you can't go and remove people from where they live and kill them and and harm them without dehumanizing them. So you need to have a racial hierarchy in order to delegitimize and also to kind of endorse and to kind of, like, make it okay to harm others. So this whole thing is social construction. It's just most white people just happen to be white.
• 19:00
  And I, as a black person, I just happen happen to be black. But just know that these are terms that were created. So, for me, the the answer is not so much because it is true that you can, like, you can kind of do what you, what you, what you must as a parent, making it so that the child sees value in their of making it so that the child sees themselves reflected in the media that they're consuming. You know, to me, until the child is beautiful regardless of how her hair looks, regardless of how her skin looks, regardless of her gender, regardless of her her preferences, her even regardless of her sexuality. You know, it's it's kind of just to say that what we need to do is as parents, as members of our community, we have to learn to to find ways of accepting ourselves and loving ourselves and when we have this love to give, then, the process itself is a bit easier But right now, when I think about it, I kind of look at it that white supremacy and this idea of racial categorization and saying one person's better than another person.
• 20:13
  My my perspective is that it's led because it that these beliefs themselves are traumatic. These labels themselves, they they harm. They they don't really help. And so many white people are distilled unless someone else is not white, Then they become white. And then the other person becomes something else.
• 20:34
  And I think that's what happened to the African when the colonizers appeared. I think that's what happened to the the native when the Europeans invaded there as well. So, it's it's really just to say that this this dissociation and also then this preoccupation with race and this dissociation from race. These are both trauma responses. And although it's it's not it's not something that every, like, you know, this is, I'm coming from the perspective of a psychotherapist, but we can actually treat trauma responses in that way.
• 21:07
  But even if you're not a psychotherapist, if you're living with someone who has trauma, if you yourself, you have trauma, and you know, going to therapy, learning to appreciate, learning to love yourself, learning to to laugh a bit more, to enjoy life a bit more. These are all therapeutic activities that that anybody can do. But that's that's generally the way how I look at it is that these these racial categories are trauma. They're they're infused with trauma and these racial prejudices, these baseless prejudices we have, we can also reprocess them. We can also change them.
• 21:46
  Whether it's in the individual, the family, community, or the society that people are a part of. There's there's a way to get through this.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: What is the difference? Can you clarify for me the difference between people who, and I say people just to make it an other to be able to talk about it I guess, learning from you right now. People who quote don't see color and so then also won't acknowledge issues and not othering people so that we can just be people?
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Good question. It's a good question. So what's interesting is the same person who says they don't see color, they see gender. Like I've I've never met someone who who will speak to a person who presents as a female and say, I don't see you being a female. Like, they don't say anything like, you know, we're all people.
• 22:41
  Like, it's with this whole like, girls and and boys thing. They don't do that. Because because the thing is that, like, race is highly dissociated for many white people. So many people who will say things like, I don't see color. They have to understand that that's what privilege is.
• 23:02
  Like, the privilege is that you don't see color. Like, it's like, for example, like, like, it's like a a woman is likely to know themselves have gender because they're going to see it reflected in their everyday experience that that kind of, like, the advertisements that are targeted towards women, the the body image issues that are kind of like targeted towards women as well. Although we do see now higher rates of anorexia nervosa in boys. We didn't used to see it as much. Speaking of anorexia is just to say that that itself is highly dependent on a culture's, like, decision about who is beautiful and who is not, who's perfect, and who is not.
• 23:51
  All of that to say is that the person who says they don't see color, they're it's it's not that they're color blind. It's it's not that they're seeing things in a distorted color palette. It's that they don't want to acknowledge race. Because if they acknowledge race, they have to acknowledge racism. So it's a it's a convenient defense but also a dissociative response because it's too much pain to really acknowledge that.
• 24:19
  Wait a second, that racism kind of structures the whole like that white supremacy is kind of behind a lot of our institutions, a lot of our communications. That the reason why you'd need to buy a doll that looks black is because there's a push to get dolls that look white as being more beautiful than those that look black. That's all too much. It's all too it's all too risque and too taboo. So it is much more comfortable to say we don't see race.
• 24:57
  But when when a person tells me that they don't see my race, they're also telling me that they that they don't see me as my identity. Identity. Because regardless, I identify myself as being a black man, and many black people, a black comes even before my gender, before my sex, before my categorization. So it's like it's just to say that, yeah, if if you're saying you don't see me as being a black person, you're blind, maybe not, maybe not blind. Because even Stevie Wonder, Stevie Wonder knows he's black.
• 25:34
  And Stevie Wonder still like fights for the cause of Black Lives Matter and is an activist like in terms of his his his pursuit for justice for all people. So it's like, if you don't see race, do you see disability? If you don't see race, do you see sex? Do you see gender? And if you don't see my race, then you cannot fully love me or care about me.
• 26:05
  You cannot fully appreciate who I am. The idea is that we want to be able to see people who are able-bodied, non able-bodied. We want to see people who are heterosexual, non heterosexual. We want to see people who are all over, who are from all walks of life. But it's just that we want to be able to to treat all of them with love and compassion.
• 26:29
  So, that's that's the key is that we must be able to acknowledge all aspects of the self. Excuse me. And if we can acknowledge what's in us, then it's easier for us to acknowledge what's in the other.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I think that you said something really important there about loving all people, including ourselves, loving all people well because I think there's a distinction especially in the South where they call the South Of The United States, they call it the quote bible belt and it's Yeah. A hotbed of evangelical nastiness and aggression, which is really ironic because it's like the opposite of what they say they stand for. And there's microaggressions and just outright aggression against people, groups of people, whether it has to do with orientation or sexuality or gender or race and the whole all lives matter. If if all lives matter, then we have to see them as people. And seeing people as people, even in the therapy setting, is what helps us see where trauma is and where healing is needed.
• 27:49
  Again, using a personal example instead of a patient, we have our youngest daughter is, medically fragile and so we receive regular visits from the palliative care team which includes a chaplain. And last week a, they were talking to my oldest daughter about her feelings about our daughter and how she was doing and and her, any concerns she had and sort of the traumatizing effect on the siblings who who love their baby sister but have watched her fight to stay alive and and and those emotional issues. And she was trying to tend to that trauma, but my daughter looked at her and said, I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about if on Tuesday I can still play outside or not.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Because she's so anxious. She's a she's old enough. She's only 12, but she's old enough to be Mhmm. Aware enough. She understands so much.
• 28:50
  And when we drive home, we live out in the country because of the pandemic. We had to move for our daughter to be safe, and we we live out in the country. And to get to where we live, we have to drive through a whole neighborhood of, people flying Trump flags. And not talking about the politics, but talking about the traumatizing impact of that. We were walking to a farmer's market in the neighborhood and someone spit on her, my daughter, because she has brown skin.
• 29:28
  And Yeah. What 12 year old should have to deal with that? And and when we talk about all lives matter, this this it's an example where privilege comes in. You you have the privilege to love all people, but you're not noticing some of those people.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Yeah. It's convenient. It's that but the thing is though is just understand that the person who's is a racist, it's it's that he does not see the person who has the category of race because white people don't have a category of race, but because they're the default, just like how men are the default. But, like, the person who's racist, he doesn't see the person who has a racist as being a human because you you need to delegitimize a person before you can harm them.
• 30:19
  It's kinda like like in a way, you kind of have to make it so that in pop culture that black people are seen as like animals or are are compared to animals and are seen as aggressive and seen as, like, unintelligent. You need to have those images in order to to be violent towards them. Like, this person who did this terrible thing. This because as a black person too, I've been spat on as well when I was younger. So it's like, know how terrible it is.
• 30:58
  But it's and also just so you know, this isn't only in the bible belt. Whoever, like, just for the listeners as well to know that, yeah, white supremacy does not distinguish in racist countries. So thing is that you're going to see that there's racism, but it just manifests itself differently depending on whether you're in the South, if you're in the Northern States, but also in Canada because you guys don't see our news but yeah, we we have racism here too. It's just that the racism in The States is aggressive and ours is passive aggressive. So, there's many representations of what racism looks like and it's true.
• 31:34
  I don't have the cultural understanding of living in those areas and I'm not trying to minimize any of that stuff. But just to say that there's a constant push in society to make it so that specific people should be harmed and specific people's rights should be delegitimized. And that push is what makes it so violence becomes possible. So even the person who does the violence, they're part of a system that that has pushed them and encouraged them to see this as being possible. This one last thing is that when we in in the summer, when we're seeing the videos of of police violence.
• 32:20
  This it's interesting because like white people as well are killed by police officers. And it's very interesting because you will not see as many videos of white people being killed by police officers. And you gotta think, well, what, like, what, what is that? And it's it's not to say that I like the actor or anything like that, but just to know that it's more acceptable to see black bodies and brown bodies who have been subjected to violence than it is to see white people who've been subjected to it. So when you see footage from The Middle East, they're going to show like the bodies and the violence and the blood.
• 33:05
  But over here, we don't see that happening to white people. And just know that it's those types of things that are it's like sometimes the sometimes what's not being covered, which is the communication in itself. But I do wanna say that that person, these guys, even the people flying the Trump flags and all of this stuff, it's that there's a social context that permits them to kind of see certain people as being valued and certain people as not being valued. But but this is bigger than just a Democrat and Republican. This is this is bigger than just left wing and right wing.
• 33:42
  It's it's kind of how the countries were made. You you couldn't have these guys if, like, the country wasn't founded on the elimination of native people and and the enslavement of black people. Like, you like, it kind of it it kind of makes it kinda adds up when I when I look at
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: it. I I have absolutely seen that. My work is now virtual like so many because of the pandemic. But before that, I was frequently traveling around the world working with the UN and UNHCR and UNICEF and different NGOs and seeing the same thing exactly what you're describing in different countries and different places in the world. Similar things happen, but it's different groups against different groups or different tribes against different tribes or different Yeah.
• 34:30
  Faith traditions against other faith traditions or cultures. Or sometimes it's really a culture, and outside of that culture, people think it's a faith tradition. And really, it's not about that religion at all the way the western society sees religion. It's it's about history and culture. And so I've I've just wanted I agree with that.
• 34:54
  I've absolutely witnessed that myself as well.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For sure. And it's because it's it's it's the default. It's it's terrible. But, yeah, the the default way of operating has been constructed to be this way.
• 35:11
  And so the the reason it's just like, the way how we actually heal from trauma and the way how we heal from these irrational responses, okay, and well, they they do have, like, a logic, a certain there's a there's a logic behind racism. There's a logic behind, like, the white supremacy and all that stuff. But the way how we heal from these things is when we're actually able to name them and when we're actually saying that this is the trauma. This is the difficulty that we're going through. And when we can actually say, okay, this is the challenge and when we can actually be like, wait, why are there these disparities?
• 35:48
  I'll I'll segue a little bit. It's kind of this is about, like, from a family therapist perspective. Usually, what will happen is that I'll get I'll get a parent who will say something like, fix my kid. Okay? And so then they'll say, like, my kid is acting up.
• 36:04
  You know, they're doing all this stuff. And then after I'll say, okay, so I can see your child, but are you willing to come in as well? And have the whole family come in as well? And usually the parent is like, well, why do you need to see me? And it's just, it's very fascinating to me.
• 36:20
  Because it's like, we're so used to looking at an individual as being the problem. But that's because we are in an individualist society like we who live in the Northwest. But it's like if we're just looking at it as like the individual, then we're often going to end up blaming somebody. And so we kind of, when I'm trying to work with a family, I want to see the child because I have to see the environment that the child will return to after we work together. So if if we're going to work together and then the child is is like dealing with anxiety and I teach the child a technique and then they go back home.
• 37:04
  They're trying to do the technique and then the parents are like, what's that stupid technique you're doing? Or they don't like the kid and they say bad things to the kid. Then the kid will come back to the next session and say, hey, that thing didn't work. So, the reason why you want to have family therapy situation is because when you find out that the parent or the parents, in many cases, are alcoholics or suffering from their own mental mental health issues, trying to nurse their own traumas, and doing this at the expense of the child's well-being and safety and security. If you're able to have the whole family in, then you're able to see who has power and who does not.
• 37:44
  But we cannot resolve this type of problem that's affecting collectives of individuals when we're coming from an individualist perspective. Or else we end up victim blaming. Or else we say that the woman who went through the sexual violence that it's because her dress was too short. Or else we say that the black person who's not achieving in school, well, it's because he he doesn't have a good work ethic. It's that we have to talk about where what is the society that people are living in.
• 38:19
  We gotta look that big into it. We gotta see not only the families but we gotta see all of the the circles that surround them. We gotta see the whole ecological model, Raffin Brenner's. And when we're able to see, like, who the individual is, when we're able to see who does the individual speak to, who does the individual live with, what is the individual eating, like like, everything like, what where does the individual go to school? Where does the individual, you know, how does the individual see other individuals who look like them?
• 38:53
  When we're, when we're looking at things from a systemic perspective, we avoid blaming. We start to say, okay, what's happening instead of why did this person do this? And in many discussions about racism, they often end because a person who has power is usually like, I don't want to give it up. And so we have to really because that's the only the only reason why racism is still here is because white people can benefit from it. Because if it if there was no benefit, if there was no function to the suppression of others, it would be gone.
• 39:30
  So, like, the thing is that, like, when white people are able to realize, wait a second, Like, what are we doing? What's the whole purpose of this? Is there another way? Is there a better way? And the people who have power are able to then make different decisions.
• 39:48
  But when we're given options, we can have them. But if we only if we're only surrounded by the so called default mode of operation, and if we think that this is the only way how things have been and how things are gonna be, we gotta open up our history books. And if we don't see the answer over there, then we gotta make a new one for the future.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I'm just still soaking that in. There's so much.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's because I'm I'm a systemic therapist and like my perspective on this is like I'm looking at things from a social, cultural, and all these other lenses. So, not trying to throw too much at at everybody but I I love this topic because I feel that this is this is what we haven't been doing And so I I don't know if like there are other people who are doing this besides me. But for me I'd love to reach out with those people.
• 40:40
  I I'd love to to hear from people who are actually interested in solving the problem of racism. Because I think this thing can be solved. Because this thing started. It wasn't always like this. When we talk about when people were enslaved prior to European colonialism and all of that.
• 41:02
  It wasn't always like slavery because of like the look of your skin. Many times is that we book there's two warring parties and then the loser has to then work for the other, the other winner. But sometimes, even being an enslaved person in those societies, you'd still be able to work work your ways up the rank and still be seen as a citizen. But chattel slavery, okay? The white supremacy, the African diaspora, the Amafa, like every the everything that happened to us, this thing was is ridiculous in that you are going to, for multiple years, for centuries, be in this context where there is multigenerational trauma on a regular basis where you work until you die, and then there's a stereotype saying you don't work hard enough.
• 41:59
  It's like this thing is insane. It's it's this this thing is all of the it's it's insanity. And so the only reason why insanity continues is because we keep doing it over and over. So I think that there are ways of being able to resolve all of this because it started and there's a way to end it and for me, like I'm a therapist, so I just do it, you know, one person at a time, one one couple at a time, one family at a time. We we just have to have a motivation.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I see that with even my daughter, that moment when she got spit on and I had to make a conscious decision whether to attack this person for spitting on my daughter or how I was going to respond in the split second, which to me felt like an eternity of how I was gonna handle this as a parent.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, after
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Yes. After he spit on her.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And okay. So the thing is, if you're wondering how to actually change these things, okay, is that you gotta do it at a higher level.
• 43:14
  It's not only an individual level, but this idea of white person causes harm, we forgive the white person. This is actually it's another script that plays out in our in our culture. But a black person appears, and then black person is punished. You see this also exists. This is the racial violence towards black people, not only by police officers even though that's what's public.
• 43:42
  It's it's that there's routine. We're prevented. We're marginalized. We're prevented from participating at an equal playing field. So if you're wondering what to do about this thing, then you gotta use political power.
• 43:55
  You gotta start to vote, and this is the biggest turnout. I watched American news. You guys' news is more exciting and entertaining. It's like fireworks. Every time I turn on my thing, like, my computer against the viruses, every time I I look I log on and look at look at what's happening in The States, but I have a good malware protection program.
• 44:15
  Anyways, the thing is that, like, if you're wondering how to stop racism, it's that you gotta use political power. It's not only because you're like you can try to coarse or convince every racist person you meet. That's not it's it'll take a bit more than that. It has to be that people, like, you know, you you need a collective in order to to confront collective. You need, like, like, what we did have in the summer of, like, people being like, wow.
• 44:45
  We got it. Like, you know, Black Lives Matter. There were a lot of white people too who were protesting. And so that's why it's when white people are like, yo, we had enough of this. When white people are like, okay.
• 44:55
  Like, this thing has to go because black people routinely or many times in history have I forget who it was who said it, but this isn't my specific quotation. But many times through history, black people have helped the white society to kind of to reflect on this these dynamics that exist in the country to cut to get them to change. Like the Martin Luther Kings, the Malcolm Xs, the Huey Newtons, the every like, every activist, like, all that they're trying to do is just trying to say, look, let's just have more humanity. And so if you do want to actually see these things change, then you gotta get up and you gotta, you know, go on your Google, look and see who it is, who's responsible for certain, like, laws or, like, even, like, at the municipal level. Like, we need to increase our awareness and understanding of civics.
• 45:55
  Like, if we want to be able to impact our interpersonal relations between each other. Like, the thing is people have been fighting for people are all have always black people and activists and civil rights leaders and people who are part of these protests. They've been fighting to maintain equality and humanity. And if you're wondering what what you can do to make a difference is yes, that you must heal yourself, and yes, you must take care of yourself and practice your good self care. But you also have to look at it in terms of, like, what's what's a better way of of spending this this time?
• 46:38
  For me, like, the best way of spending this time right now is by, like, sharing the ideas that there's the better way of of living. Like, I can only do what I can as a psychotherapist, but I think if everybody does their part and if everyone does the best that they can, we can leave this this world much better for for our children because like I do think, you know, the youth are the future right now and I do think also that like that they're they're, you know, they're seeing a lot of things. This is a this is a really hard, hard year to be a child and a hard year to be a youth. I think we we owe it to them. We owe it to the next generation to do everything that we can.
• 47:22
  But not to like, we gotta do the things of standing up and, like, of course, not permitting anybody to, like, to harm our children. But also white people, you also have to speak to other white people too. Help us out. When white people are say are saying, look, this is enough is enough, then this thing is done. It's finished.
• 47:40
  It can't it can't continue unless it can't continue unless people continue to benefit from it. And people only continue to benefit from this delegitimization from this violence when we don't see that we're all part of the same family here.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: It's so important to address it, and we can't ignore it. And that's what I told my daughter in front of that man was that it was not her job to solve his work, but that also when you're talking about the greater context and the society and the bigger level of this, I think it's so critical for people, especially people who know about trauma and dissociation, who have these systems within them and like it's a microcosm and the bigger application of society and getting out to vote and making decisions to be a part of something. Not just using your voice, but honoring the voices of others and listening to each other as people and going back to what you said in the beginning about loving others well and loving yourself well. Because I just I think what I've learned from you is so profound about how it requires this, not just the dehumanizing to be able to harm someone else, but those who are familiar with dissociation. Recognizing that feeling as a flag that there is something my body or my mind is trying to separate myself from.
• 49:26
  And almost instead of being afraid of dissociation or instead of thinking dissociation is only bad, using it as feeling information like other big feelings. Big feelings, they have information for me. And the information from dissociation is that someone, whether it's me or someone else, is getting hurt. And that when I have to step so far aback that I can't acknowledge these people as unique individuals or I can't help defend or help change or when I have to separate people from being people or categorize people to make an other so to excuse or dismiss this other behavior. When all of that starts happening, that it's a red flag that there's danger.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Mhmm. It's okay. I was having fun. Like, you know, it's it's really to say that, what we're what we're all trying to do is we're just trying to be the best humans we can be and just to make just to make the world better in the way that we can.
• 50:30
  And it's hard. It's hard being a parent. It's hard being a kid. This is a hard year for everyone. But in those types of situations, you know, protect your family.
• 50:39
  Protect the people that that that you love. Protect the people who who are worthy of your deserving of your love. And we gotta set boundaries and just not be around people who are going to try to cause harm to us. There's no there's you know, it's I just we we just gotta do the best that we can.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: I think that you've hit, like, on another piece of trauma because when you don't do those things, that's misattunement. Like, that's relational trauma. Right? Your emotional needs not being noticed and reflected and met. Mhmm.
• 51:16
  And so in the context of racism, when there are people who are dismissing that issue or actually causing harm to your children or family or friends or someone you know or someone you don't know who's just a human, that's that's additional trauma. That's misattunement. And maybe that explains some of the consequence of the divisiveness and some of the consequence of people who are not standing up or not speaking out when they have a platform to do so. That it's causing relational trauma. And I've seen so many, I don't know, on social social media or other posts of about how there's all this unfriending happening and other people are saying, no no no.
• 52:01
  We love everybody. Love every but but it's not love when there's misattunement and it's not love when there's relational trauma. And I think there's something significant under that about becoming part of the problem by thinking you're staying out of it.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So everyone I mean, has their their ways of being able to cope with things. Is that for me, I mean, this this has been very difficult year. Okay? So I've decided to kinda save my energy.
• 52:34
  And I've decided also to put my energy towards purpose. And this I think that when we decide for ourselves, like, what is it that we want to to leave as a as a legacy? What is it that we want to leave, like, like, the impact we want to have on the world? And this this prevents us from getting, like, in that shutdown state that many people have been going through during this whole, like, COVID confinement thing going on. And, yeah, it is true is that you do want to be able to defend, like, on on social media and and all that stuff.
• 53:16
  But, I mean, I'm a person that'll say, like, look. If you gotta delete these people, you, you know, you delete them. No need to try to to argue with someone who's gaslighting you. I would say that, like, think about, it's, it's more to know that, like, protesting is one way that is effective. Standing up for your rights.
• 53:34
  This is a a way that's effective. Changing legislation that's disproportionately targeting black people, brown people, all people, realizing we're all part of the same family. And it's not it's not only one. It's that you gotta do like all all of these. It's not it's not that there's only one that's the right way and it's not that like there's like no one really knows what the solution is going to be.
• 54:00
  But but yeah, it's pretty much just to say that. Is that people, everyone has to just do the best that they can. But like protect yourself, stay safe, and just know that there's a there's a bigger goal for why we're why we're doing these things. And if you don't know that bigger goal, make a bigger goal for yourself. Like, my purpose isn't the same as everyone else's.
• 54:20
  My job is to help people to recognize that they do have a purpose, that that everyone's life has meaning, including everyone who's listening even right now. And if we can, like, speak in this way, like, get some people's neurons firing and get some people thinking about things in a different way. And sometimes that's all it takes. But the the key thing is just not to give up. The key thing is not to to focus on the on the outcome.
• 54:49
  It's more on the effort. That we can say with with pride that we did everything that we could do to make the world a bit better for those around us on this day and the next.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: I think that is so empowering and also reorienting in all the chaos as we literally wait for the election tomorrow and what happens after that. There's something reorienting about that of in my world, in myself, what I can do is everything I can to care for myself and my children and the people around me and the world in a way of intentional, purposeful, conscious effort at being who I am and that that in itself is enough no matter what happens and no matter what the results of that are. Like like, just something something more active than planting seeds, but just being me and letting myself be me and doing my best at that in all the different ways that that may what that may mean to me. But letting that naturally unfold instead of focusing on what can or cannot happen or who is seeing that or who is not seeing that or what other people think about it and just being fully present and fully Yeah. Myself.
• 56:26
  That's that's a wonderful thing that that it feels so I don't know. As an American in the middle of the South, in the middle of the chaos of the election week, that literally in my body feels grounding and reorienting, and I am grateful. Thank you.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you. But as I gotta say is that that grounding feeling couldn't happen if you didn't make this possible. So, it's really to say that it's the communication between people. It's when people come together that that the healing takes place And so I really I really believe that. So, you know, we we want to support one another, also to elevate the voices.
• 57:08
  You know, I'm I'm sure for many people, it's the first time they heard black therapist, black psychotherapist, black family therapist before. So, let's just make it that you know, it's it's not for this David Archer. It's it's for the David Archers that come afterwards. Let's try to just make it that we all that we all win together and we can, possible. Like, but let's take care of ourselves and take care of those who are around us as well.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Tell us about your book. I wanna elevate your voice in that way. Tell us about your book.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. Cool. Sure. So, the name of the book is, Antiracist Psychotherapy Confronting Systemic Racism and Healing Racial Trauma and so, the basic idea behind it is everything you've heard me talk about. It's really to say it.
• 57:55
  That there's a social construction of race and in a way then, there's a social construction of trauma. So that certain people who have a different races are more susceptible to being on the receiving ends of certain issues and events. It's it's not only white supremacy, it's also the economic system of capitalism. It's kind of just to say everything that that people don't want to talk about is kind of what's causing us to be traumatized. So, like poverty and and like you know, trauma as as Emma hinted at like, you know, we also have to talk about dissociation as well and yeah, it's it's it's it's an effort to try to take an approach towards family therapy, trauma informed care, and mindfulness based perspectives for the resolution of of racial trauma and just knowing that racial trauma is not just what happened.
• 58:58
  It's what's happening and also our perspectives of what will happen. And so anti racism means that it's it's not only for for us to it's it's just to know that it's it's that we're we're trying to do it for everybody. We're trying to do it for the person who's white, the person who's black, and everyone who's within that spectrum. And there's it's it comes from a perspective that is based on EMDR and also memory reconsolidation. There's some neurobiological things that I'll be discussing and and just some some possible solutions that can help to make therapists a bit more informed and also people who who are you don't know have to be only a therapist.
• 59:46
  It's just really a way of understanding what racism is and how we can get closer to this to the solution of this sickness and just knowing that it's possible.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: There's so much freedom in that in the healing of that. And when you when you share about it, I see so many different layers of the implications of that. And and Mhmm. From from a very broad picture to a very specific one. And having that EMDR framework and tying that even back into the brain works.
• 1:00:22
  We've talked a lot about that on the podcast this year and I think that's incredible. That's incredible work. It's incredible academically but it's so effective in healing. My daughter actually ended up doing some EMDR work because of the flags and processing even that. There are people that we love very much who are republican.
• 1:00:49
  There are people who we love very much who are democrat. There are people we love very much who are just people. It's not about the parties. It's about that flag to her became a symbol of something that was hurting her that she felt in danger from. And so that othering again, like you mentioned earlier, and and coming full circle to what healing means to her and what freedom means to her.
• 1:01:18
  And she we what she ended up wanting to do after the EMDR and what she asked and we we were able to put out a request and do some research, and someone actually found one and got for her was she wanted a t shirt that said black lives matter, but she wanted a t shirt that said black lives matter in in ASL in the finger spelling because she's
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Okay.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: She's deaf with she's deaf with cochlear Yes. It was amazing. But she took that literal fear of the flag, not because everyone who has a flag like that is terrible. I I really am talking about her experience of it, not even the politics. Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  Yeah. For sure. But Because of the politics and because of things she has seen on TV or has experienced in protest or has experienced at the farmer's market trying to eat a muffin, it became a trauma symbol to her. And I'm sure she's not the only one, but turning that into something that not just was healing, but that she felt proud of, of this is who I am, a black deaf woman. And that's what she said in in that order.
• 1:02:31
  And it was interesting to me, like you said, about identity and what the order of that developing because that's what she said, black, deaf woman, and what that means to her. And to have that shirt with the hand shapes on it saying black lives matter to her meant.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: I hear.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: And can I also add that that's that's why I do this work? When you're working on trauma from gendered violence, then you're helping the a person to to it's like an action of feminism. It's an activist process. When you're helping a person recover from the trauma of white supremacy, this is an anti racist process. Is that the work is designed to make it so that people can liberate themselves.
• 1:03:25
  Like reprocessing trauma is about being able to get the person to love themselves, to acknowledge all aspects, all parts of themselves, and that itself in a society that's based on on white supremacy, being able to love yourself is an act of resistance.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Wow. I don't even have words in response to that. Loving Like Like, I literally frozen just honoring that. Loving yourself as an active resistance.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: But it was it was a pleasure speaking with you.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you very much. Loving myself as an active resistance. That is that is incredible. Thank you so much.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Alright. But but thank you, and, also, thank you for everyone who's listening, and thank you for taking the time to to listen to this message. And and I I hope everyone stays safe and and also just continue that compassion for yourself and for those that are around you as well.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Alright, Emma. You take good care of yourself. Okay?
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Sure. Thank you. I hope you have a lovely day. Thank you for what you're doing truly. Thank you for listening.
• 1:04:46
  Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.