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Mini: Hard Conversations · Why We Do What We Do

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  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
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  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do Mini. I'm your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: host Abraham and I'm your gros Shane. We are a
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  Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans and
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  Speaker 1: non human animals do. And this is a short discussion
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  Speaker 1: in which we do a topic for like ten to
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  Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and get out of there and that's it.
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  Speaker 1: So it's Mini Mondays. This is our ninety third Mini
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  Speaker 1: that we have done, so we're coming up on one hundred.
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  Speaker 1: We've been doing this for almost two years, which is
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  Speaker 1: wild to think about it close. Yeah, so that's what
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  Speaker 1: I gotta say about that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just short, bite sized episodes.
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  Speaker 3: So if you're joining us for the first time, this
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  Speaker 3: is not our general like weekly format. This is just
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  Speaker 3: kind of like topics that could probably they may. We
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  Speaker 3: aren't larger explanations, but we felt like, yeah, this was fine.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. This will also not necessarily be standard mini format
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  Speaker 1: because I've done this once before where I sort of
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  Speaker 1: just threw a topic at Shane and didn't give him
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  Speaker 1: any warning, and that's kind of what this is. Although
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  Speaker 1: he has seen my notes and thoughts on this, and
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  Speaker 1: we even briefly discussed it, so much less of a surprise.
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  Speaker 1: But this one is going to be more of a
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  Speaker 1: discussion than sort of the way that we tend to
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  Speaker 1: present these, where we are explaining something or talking through
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  Speaker 1: a topic or concept and and maybe critiquing it. This
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  Speaker 1: is more of like a dialogue where I actually I
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  Speaker 1: want to have like a sort of back and forth.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't really write these notes with the intention that
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  Speaker 1: we would we would read through them, but that we
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  Speaker 1: mostly'd have some ideas for us to talk about. The
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  Speaker 1: other thing to note before we jump into this is
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  Speaker 1: that if you're joining us so the first time, then welcome.
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  Speaker 1: We hope that you enjoy this conversation. If you are returning,
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  Speaker 1: then welcome back. Thank you for joining us again. Anyway,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to support us, you can join us
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, pick up some merch leave us a rating
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and review, like subscribe to a friend. Go over those
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  Speaker 1: things more at the end of this discussion. But I
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  Speaker 1: think that is it for preamble before we jump into this,
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  Speaker 1: or am I missing anything?
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  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so we're talking about this idea of hard conversations
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  Speaker 1: kind of and what that means and the inspiration for
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  Speaker 1: this discussion. You might feel like, all right, who said
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  Speaker 1: something to Abraham to make him feel like he needed
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  Speaker 1: to say this on a podcast? Nobody. This is not
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  Speaker 1: any event particularly related to those podcasts. It really wasn't
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  Speaker 1: even an event that directly transpired at all. It was
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  Speaker 1: actually just me thinking about this sure and feeling like
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  Speaker 1: it feels like we are among the few who are
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  Speaker 1: professionals who decide to sort of take positions on things
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  Speaker 1: and have our positions be known. And I felt like
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  Speaker 1: we are missing an opportunity to have discussion that would
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  Speaker 1: help lead our societal discussions and a more productive route.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason is is it because it feels like
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  Speaker 1: people don't want to have the hard conversations with people
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  Speaker 1: that are around them. They don't want to talk about religion,
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  Speaker 1: they don't want to talk about politics, they don't want
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  Speaker 1: to talk about news. They just want to have small
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  Speaker 1: talk so that they don't they don't stir the pot
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  Speaker 1: if you will. And well, I can understand the peel
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  Speaker 1: of this. I think it kind of does us a disservice.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't disagree.
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  Speaker 3: I you know, as somebody who has been pretty outspoken
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  Speaker 3: about my beliefs for as long as I can remember.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I was raised to be very polite, and
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  Speaker 3: I was raised I'm sure you've probably heard we a
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  Speaker 3: lot of us heard this, Like you don't talk about politics,
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  Speaker 3: you don't talk about religion because it's always like a
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  Speaker 3: hot button topic. But I think that there's like a
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  Speaker 3: certain responsibility to talk about it in meaningful ways. And I,
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  Speaker 3: as somebody who's outspoken, I don't even think twice about
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  Speaker 3: it anymore. I'm like, this is what I'm going to say,
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  Speaker 3: and then like later I'm like, oh, maybe should have
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  Speaker 3: reeled that in a little bit in this context, you know.
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  Speaker 3: But I think this is actually good timing too, because
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  Speaker 3: there's like some recent discussion and behavior analysis about like
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  Speaker 3: professionalism on social media and what that looks like for
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  Speaker 3: behavior analysis and for the profession, And a lot of
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  Speaker 3: that discourse comes from the way that we present information,
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  Speaker 3: not we, but like I say, the collective we, the
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  Speaker 3: way that we present information, but the topics that we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about, our public opinions about politics, our public opinions
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  Speaker 3: about current affairs, current events, all those things like that
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  Speaker 3: is I think part of that conversation which I'm so
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  Speaker 3: glad that we're gonna kind of look at that a
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  Speaker 3: little bit.
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  Speaker 1: That's interesting. I hadn't heard this, and I'd be curious
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  Speaker 1: to know, like is it does it seem like it's
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  Speaker 1: trending toward we should have those conversations or we shouldn't.
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  Speaker 3: It was trending towards we should have those conversations if
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  Speaker 3: they don't make the field look bad. It was like
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  Speaker 3: kind of mass couched in, like this idea of professionalism,
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  Speaker 3: but essentially just kind of like, hey, like we have
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  Speaker 3: to be professionals because being unprofessional whatever that means, and
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  Speaker 3: that loose definition of unprofessionalism is hurting the profession at large.
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  Speaker 2: So that was like kind of.
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  Speaker 3: Where it was where it's at, But it was it
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  Speaker 3: was kind of like we need to be more neutral
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  Speaker 3: as professionals, which I thought was interesting.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure I agree with that position for a
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  Speaker 1: variety of reasons.
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  Speaker 2: I disagree with the two.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I just wanted to do it, but it was
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  Speaker 3: one of those things where I thought it was an
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  Speaker 3: interesting it's an interesting discourse in the field right now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I'm glad that you brought that to the forefront,
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  Speaker 1: and I imagine that you and I fallow pretty similarly
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  Speaker 1: on this, and we'll find out, I think, in this discussion. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: but I think there are those who don't think we
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  Speaker 1: should express our opinions or have the kinds of conversations
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  Speaker 1: we do like to have on this podcast. But really
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  Speaker 1: the purpose of my thinking on this does extend beyond
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  Speaker 1: just us as a podcast. I have been lectured about
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  Speaker 1: expressing my opinion and maybe more importantly, when I should
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  Speaker 1: not express my opinion by other people around me in general. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And as I said, I think you can hear this,
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  Speaker 1: and it almost sounds like I think right wing people
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  Speaker 1: tend to make this argument, this whole freedom of speech argument,
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  Speaker 1: and they're not trying to have a conversation. They are
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  Speaker 1: just angry because they get called out when they say
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  Speaker 1: racist things. Sure, as a matter of fact, they kind
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  Speaker 1: of want to shut down the conversation. They just want
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  Speaker 1: to be able to offend people in any way that
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  Speaker 1: they want, say whatever they want and there not be
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  Speaker 1: any consequences to anything that say. Right, what I'm actually
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  Speaker 1: arguing for is kind of the exact opposite of that.
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  Speaker 1: In a sense, I can appreciate the concern around being
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  Speaker 1: ad dick to people I also can appreciate a little bit,
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  Speaker 1: like thinking about this from a professional organization standpoint, you
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  Speaker 1: have the like, we don't know what in retrospect we
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  Speaker 1: will have said that we will agree with what we said.
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  Speaker 1: So if we take a neutral position most of the time,
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  Speaker 1: then we'll be unlikely to find ourselves having to look
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  Speaker 1: back and apologize for the things we said and did
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  Speaker 1: in the past. And I understand that. I think that
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  Speaker 1: makes some amount of sense. But I think like there
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  Speaker 1: are some like directions that you can lean toward where
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  Speaker 1: you're probably going to end up on the right side
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  Speaker 1: of history eventually, And that is like being compassionate toward
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  Speaker 1: other people, like having a radical stance of advocacy for
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  Speaker 1: people with disabilities can only be looked on favorably in
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  Speaker 1: the long run, Like sure as the current Trump administration
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  Speaker 1: and gains further momentum, like it'll probably be in it'll
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  Speaker 1: can be maybe be considered inappropriate from a conservative perspective
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  Speaker 1: to be nice to people with disabilities. That feels like
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  Speaker 1: that's in the realm of possibility for them, like that's
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  Speaker 1: the route they tend to go, And maybe for a
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  Speaker 1: time it'll look like it's unpopular to have that position,
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  Speaker 1: but in the long run, those are gonna be our
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  Speaker 1: values anyway. So like having like fierce advocacy for those
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  Speaker 1: people I think can only be met appropriately with like
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  Speaker 1: that was the right way to that was the right
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  Speaker 1: thing to do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes sense.
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  Speaker 3: And I think that, Yeah, there are some things that
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  Speaker 3: feel like easy wins, like and then there are there
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  Speaker 3: are some that like there is more nuanced those conversations,
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  Speaker 3: Like I don't think it's very difficult to say that
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  Speaker 3: ICE is a terrorist organization.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's easy.
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  Speaker 3: I think that's that's that's that's low hanging fruit, Like,
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  Speaker 3: that's not that's that shouldn't be a difficult conversation. But
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  Speaker 3: for some people that is because it challenges their notions
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  Speaker 3: and their beliefs about what the country should look like,
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  Speaker 3: or what justice looks like or any of those things,
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  Speaker 3: and like it which which is just it's just misguided
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  Speaker 3: in those spaces. But like I just feel like it's
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  Speaker 3: one of those things where we can't even have a
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  Speaker 3: conversation about it without getting like people just infuriated by it, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, or without someone playing an ad all right,
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  Speaker 1: we're back. Had to bring just a moment of levity
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  Speaker 1: just for the sake of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So I think one of the things I want to
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  Speaker 1: say about this is that, like, if we cannot have
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  Speaker 1: a dialogue in good faith because we are afraid that
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  Speaker 1: doing so may provoke disagreement from our audience, then we
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  Speaker 1: have no hope as a species.
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  Speaker 2: Oh greed.
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  Speaker 1: I think that, like, we can only move forward as
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  Speaker 1: a species if we continue to talk to each other
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  Speaker 1: and create space for people to be wrong so that
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  Speaker 1: we can help shape those dialogues in a more productive direction.
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  Speaker 1: And this actually reminds me. We had a conversation a
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  Speaker 1: while back sort of on this point, and we pointed
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  Speaker 1: out that science is that process. Like in science and
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  Speaker 1: like thinking of peer review and scientific discussions and conferences,
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  Speaker 1: we espouse some idea about things, and then we submit
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  Speaker 1: it for criticism, and then our peers point out the
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  Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses of that argument, and that argument then
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  Speaker 1: evolves in a more productive discussion. We are like, some
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  Speaker 1: ideas will not survive that criticism. We're like, someone will
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  Speaker 1: pitch it and then maybe feel very strongly about it,
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  Speaker 1: and we'll all sort of collectively look at it and
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  Speaker 1: be like, well, no, that doesn't hold up for all
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  Speaker 1: these reasons, and then that idea kind of peters out
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  Speaker 1: and dies, and other ideas might come out and they're
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  Speaker 1: too extreme, but they're not wrong, they're just too extreme,
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  Speaker 1: and there's like, all right, okay, so here's the good
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  Speaker 1: parts of that argument, but we need to shave off
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  Speaker 1: these parts that are just they're not helpful and sort
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  Speaker 1: of hone it back down to a place that's more reasonable.
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  Speaker 1: And like, you don't see scientists going on PR campaigns
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  Speaker 1: for some idea, using persuasive rhetoric and appeals to emotion
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  Speaker 1: without any evidence for what they're saying. Right, politicians do, right.
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  Speaker 1: You rarely see scientists pushing an agenda grounded in ideological belief.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why I think science is like if our
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  Speaker 1: normal discourse looked like scientific discourse, I think would be
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  Speaker 1: infinitely better off.
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  Speaker 3: Oh my god, in scientific discourse, I think, I think
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  Speaker 3: is really a fascinating topic in general. And I think
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  Speaker 3: this is one of those ones where I recommend to
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  Speaker 3: everybody why we need to read books like Bad Advice
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  Speaker 3: by Paul Offit, Yeah, because I feel like that is
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  Speaker 3: a perfect example of why scientists do not go on
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  Speaker 3: PR campaigns. And why the ongoing discussion about scientific methods
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  Speaker 3: and current information and current best evidence like is so
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  Speaker 3: critically important.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: When I have had discussions around politics or religion with
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  Speaker 3: people that approach it in those good faith arguments, in
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  Speaker 3: those spaces, they have been productive, they have been useful,
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  Speaker 3: they have opened up my eyes and all those things.
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  Speaker 3: But like I think that oftentimes what you'll see is
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  Speaker 3: like people will use bad examples of what they consider
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  Speaker 3: good faith arguments and those are no longer that's not
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  Speaker 3: part of the discourse. Like we were kind of talking
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  Speaker 3: about this before, but like always use the example of
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  Speaker 3: like Charlie Kirk as an example of that. Was those
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  Speaker 3: were never good faith arguments. No, those were never He
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  Speaker 3: was not ever intending to go into that discourse in
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  Speaker 3: good faith. He was not approaching dialogue in a way
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  Speaker 3: that was meant to be productive or anything like that.
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  Speaker 2: That was never his goal.
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  Speaker 1: It was rhetoric.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and it was he always had these talking
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  Speaker 3: points and what aboutisms that would like unfurl the conversation
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  Speaker 3: or like undo the entire purpose of what a good
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  Speaker 3: faith discussion should look like. Yeah, Charlie Kirk was never
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  Speaker 3: the example for good faith arguments.
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  Speaker 2: In that space.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Tucker Carlson like never really engaged in good faith arguments.
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  Speaker 1: Alex Jones, Oh my god, like the opposite of a
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  Speaker 1: good faith discussion.
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  Speaker 3: And there are people they're extremists, they're extremists on the
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  Speaker 3: loft side. Two that do the same thing like that
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  Speaker 3: will enter it with like. And that's because again they're
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  Speaker 3: because because these types of discussions should, like I say,
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  Speaker 3: I like, I would almost think of it like this,
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  Speaker 3: discussions around politics and religion should almost be approached apolitically
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  Speaker 3: or religiously, right, Like you should be approaching it with like,
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  Speaker 3: I understand my point of view, but I'm willing to
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  Speaker 3: have a conversation about this and be willing to be wrong,
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  Speaker 3: and that is ultimately or willing to like at least
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  Speaker 3: acknowledge that my perspective is not the only one in
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  Speaker 3: this discussion.
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  Speaker 1: Like with curiosity.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, compassionate curiosity is the best way to approach it.
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  Speaker 3: So thank you doctor Tyer Sellers for giving me that
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  Speaker 3: nugget many years ago, because that was that's absolutely what
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  Speaker 3: it should be. It's compassionate curiosity. I want to learn
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  Speaker 3: more about you so I can better understand what this is.
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  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I agree with all that completely. And
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  Speaker 1: I think the point is, like I said, a lot
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  Speaker 1: of the right wing talking points, they'll say this whole
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  Speaker 1: freedom speech thing, and they're like they they're like, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: we shouldn't be oppressing you know. The people get criticized
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  Speaker 1: for the things they say, and as as you mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: like they're not good faith arguments, they're not actually trying.
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  Speaker 1: Like all they want to do is rile people up,
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  Speaker 1: make them afraid, make them agree with their point, and
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  Speaker 1: try and like manipulate it. And like it's not about
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  Speaker 1: like finding out where I'm wrong, it's not about like
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  Speaker 1: engaging people in sort of an idea that I might have.
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  Speaker 1: It's literally just about winning and losing in those arguments
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  Speaker 1: and like standing your ground. And I think that's enormously counterproductive,
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  Speaker 1: so much so that like I think that's probably where
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  Speaker 1: some of the idea for like not having those discussions
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  Speaker 1: it all comes from. But here's where, honestly, I think
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  Speaker 1: the biggest problem that I have with this is, or
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  Speaker 1: the greatest concern that this rises raises for me. It's
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  Speaker 1: I think that the fact that we don't want to
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  Speaker 1: talk about this is at least a contributing factor to
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  Speaker 1: the extreme division we have today. It might be the
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  Speaker 1: primary reason, but it's at least a reason if it's
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  Speaker 1: not the primary one, Because what happens is is we'll
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  Speaker 1: have this idea in our head and we'll just think
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  Speaker 1: about it, and the more we think about it, the
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  Speaker 1: more right we think that we are. And as soon
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  Speaker 1: as we put that out into the environment, then someone
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  Speaker 1: can like help be, like point out the flaws and
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  Speaker 1: weaknesses of that idea and have us then adjust our position.
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  Speaker 1: Like I've had this experience my where I've thought about
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  Speaker 1: something and I just keep rehearsing it to myself, and
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  Speaker 1: the more I think about it, the more I'm like,
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  Speaker 1: this is an infallibly correct position. I'm right, And so
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  Speaker 1: I'll say it and someone else will point out immediately
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  Speaker 1: they're like, well what about this? I'm like, oh right, damn,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and it's like it's those useful conversations, And
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  Speaker 1: what happens is we've now designed echo chambers where people
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: just repeat each other and they just say things that
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  Speaker 1: they agree with, and if not, then they don't engage
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  Speaker 1: with anyone and they just allow the echo chamber to
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  Speaker 1: exist in their head and nobody tells them and so
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  Speaker 1: like extremism is able to blossom, bloom and grow in
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  Speaker 1: those spaces where we don't have one another to provide
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  Speaker 1: a counterpoint, to provide a counter example or a counter argument,
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  Speaker 1: right is to say like that is too much, or
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  Speaker 1: like no, you're wrong, or even like you're right about
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: some of this, but like here's some other parts. And
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: so when we just allow those things to fester in
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  Speaker 1: those circles, then we get so entrenched in our views
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  Speaker 1: that we can't hear anyone else anymore. So I I
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  Speaker 1: think this idea that we shouldn't have these conversations is
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  Speaker 1: part of, if not the reason, we've ended up where
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  Speaker 1: we've ended up, in this horrible nightmare of a breach
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  Speaker 1: of a cursed timeline that we seem to live in.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that we have to be
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: willing to have the conversations.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that the other side too, is like
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  Speaker 2: the thing.
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  Speaker 3: I think that we have to be willing to not
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  Speaker 3: have the conversations when it is when we can recognize
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  Speaker 3: when it's not in that good faith space. Like I
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  Speaker 3: think that we have to recognize like, oh, you're not
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  Speaker 3: ready to have this conversation because you're not entering the
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  Speaker 3: space on the same playing field.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I think that's right.
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  Speaker 3: Like, I'm not asking you to be like an expert
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  Speaker 3: on this topic. I'm asking you to be at least
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  Speaker 3: practice philosophic doubt in this space. And if you're not
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: at that stage where you can even do that, then
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: we can't have this conversation in any sort of really
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: meaningful way unless you're willing to at least approach that space.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Because I mean, I've had these conversations I like with
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: people where we start talking about politics and it just
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: becomes talking points and bullet points and it becomes like,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: you know, sound bites, and I'm just like, go, yeah,
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: you're not ready, yeah, to like acknowledge or like recognize
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: there may be a bigger issue here or something else
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: going on, Like you're not ready to recognize that, Like
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: your talking points are blatantly wrong with evidence. Yeah, and
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: you still are like the playing team sports you know.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, You're right, Like there are gonna be people
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: who who are definitely not ready for it now possibly
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: never will be. And yeah, it's not very productive to
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: have those because then they will just become further entrenched.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: But the experiences I've had for the most part with
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: people when they are willing to engage. Is that the
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: face to face, honest discussion with them, where we get
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: to recognize one another's humanity is like a really good
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: time to allow yourself to have a real conversation. And
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: even if tempers get heated, it's nothing like what happens
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: when you're sitting behind a screen reading a comment or
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: like you're stuck watching someone else's video where they post
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: their hateful, bigoted nonsense. Yeah, and like the actual real
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: conversation you have with someone, like it doesn't have Like
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to I think see people for
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: like being people. Yeah, and like there are gonna be
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: times that people can't do that, Like it's you're absolutely right,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Like some people aren't ready for it, but I think
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of us are. And I think we shouldn't
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: be afraid of the conversation space if we're willing to
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: engage in good faith just because someone might bristle at it.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I think that that is what furthers the divide.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, all right, we've gone so long for
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: a mini I think we should probably call it there.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: But do you have any other I'd love to I
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: think I dominated the platform as far as time for
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: this discussion, so I want to give you space to
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: add anything else that you'd like to say.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I feel good.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: I feel like you and I are very aligned in that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I think that you're you taking up all of my airtime. Again,
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: that's perfectly fine. I think it was good.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well I'm sorry, You're good, You're good.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, No, it was good.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: It was good.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: I think it's a good discussion. I think it's so important,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: and hopefully folks know that when you listen to this show,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: that we are always willing to have those discussions too,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: Like we are willing to like engage in good faith
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: discussions and like really truly like we mean that, like
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: we're willing to be wrong. Yeah, Like that's perfectly fine.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: I've gotten corrections, We've read them on the air, Like, Yeah,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I actually love it when i'm when I get to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: find out that I was wrong about something because then
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I learn something new. Yeah, and learning is my absolute favorite.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So I'm more than good with it and I invite it.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: But again, like these have to be like real, actual
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: discussions that we're having, Yeah, and not just like rhetorical
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: talking points where you're just interested in being right and
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: having people agree with you and getting your way. The
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: interest should be, again, what can we learn right in
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: these spaces exactly? Okay, I'm going to briefly say, support
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon, leave us a rating and review, email
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: us if you like to tell us your thoughts on this.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: You can reach us directly info wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: on the social media platforms, and we do look forward
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to hearing from you. Thank you to my team of people.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you to my patrons. If you join on Patreon,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'll read your name on our full length episodes and
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: you get some behind the scenes content extrapisodes or add
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: free episodes, that sort of thing. Thank you all for listening.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you for recording with me today, Shane.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I think I said the things. Is there anything I'm
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: missing you'd like to add before we wrap it up?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Nothing else?
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Okay? I said that all so fast. I apologize for
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: those of you for whom that was too fast. But
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: this is Abraham, this is Shane. Why we do what
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: we do? Mini is out.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Bye.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why we do what we do?
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.