Latest / Queer Voices / November 26th - Remembering Lily Roddy, Reviving ANGELS IN AMERICA, Defending LGBTQIA + Marriage Rights

Transcript

November 26th - Remembering Lily Roddy, Reviving ANGELS IN AMERICA, Defending LGBTQIA + Marriage Rights · Queer Voices

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_04: Here we go with another Queer Voices.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: First up, happy Thanksgiving to anyone listening.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: We are thankful to have you as a listener.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_04: This show has been on KPFT for over five decades.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: We've got three segments for you tonight.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: First up, Deborah Moncrete Bell talks to Lana Kobel about Lily Brotdy and her upcoming celebration of life at the Montrose Center on December 6th.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_04: The community will miss Lily very much, and so we really want to celebrate her.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: Then, me, Brett Cullum, I get to talk with Wesley Whitson about the revival of Angels in America at Rec Room Arts this holiday season.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's a powerful show about the Reagan era and the AIDS crisis.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then, author Arlie Ingalls joins me to talk about same-gender marriage, Kim Davis, and the bullet that we just dodged with the Supreme Court.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: I want to remind you, you can always donate at kpft.org.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: Your help keeps us on the air.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Just hit the donate button, let them know that Queer Voices sent you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: But Queer Voices starts now.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_06: This is Deborah Moncrief Bell, and I'm talking with Lana Kobel.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_06: And we're talking about our friend Lily Roddy.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_06: Unfortunately, Lily died a few weeks ago after suffering a heart attack.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_06: Lily was the longtime astrologer for OutSmart magazines and other publications before that, and a preeminent astrologer in the state of Texas.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_06: So, Lena, first of all, tell me what was your relationship?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I knew Lily when Lily was Phil about 44 years, I'd say ago.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_07: And I can honestly say that I was Lily's first student.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_07: I had been to a retreat and they told me I would be a good astrologer.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, What's that?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_07: And then when they read my chart and knew way more about me than I was comfortable with, I came back to Houston and got a reading from several different um astrologers and went back to Lily at the time, who was Phil, and said, I want you to teach me astrology.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_07: He goes, Um, I don't do that.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, Well, I don't think you understand.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_07: When the student's ready, the teacher will come.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_07: It's time for you to teach astrology.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_07: That started Lily teaching some gazillion years ago, and we became best friends.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_07: We had a student mentor relationship.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_07: So I knew Phil, Lily through transition.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_07: And um we were quite close, actually, quite close.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, I first met Lily as Phil, kind of casual.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_06: We would see each other around the neighborhood or whatnot.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_06: Such a nice person and so pleasant, and I always enjoyed having those interactions.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_06: But then later, after the transition, uh, I would see Lily a lot more, and we would be more in community spaces with one another.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and so I was a fan, even though I'm not a big believer in astrology, but the thing that Lily would come on the show either late December or in early January and share on Queer Voices the astrological forecast for the year.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_06: And that was something that I always looked forward to is is is is hearing what uh the interpretation was.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_06: Lily's longtime partner, Yvonne, went through that transition time.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_06: And I I think that's something that we don't really talk about a lot.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_06: People that are in relationship, and when one of them transitions, so in learning from Lily, you didn't even know what astrology was, or you didn't know what an astrologer was when you started.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_07: I was I yeah, I was not familiar with astrology at all.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_07: As I said, I had been to a spiritual retreat and I didn't know anybody there, and they nailed me.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, just like knew me.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_07: So I became on a mission then to find out what astrology was because quite frankly, I'm a bit of a control freak and I didn't want anybody else knowing that much about me that I didn't know about myself.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_07: So I chose Lily over about two, there were three astrologers I had readings with.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_07: And I just, I was very, very comfortable with Lily.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_07: She was, I would say that probably the most significant thing uh about Lily was her care for other people.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_07: And when she talked to you, you knew that she truly cared.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_07: She found ways to explain things that were in very supportive ways.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_07: It was, it was, and I and I've been in several astrology different groups.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_07: I will tell you that she was probably one of the most supportive astrology mentors that I've run across because some of it can get very competitive.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_07: And Lily reached a lot of people from across the nation in her practice that she did, her astrology practice.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_07: I know she read for major corporations, she read for individuals, she even read for uh some folks on Wall Street, which that might just make everybody sit back and go, hmm, how does that happen?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_07: But she did.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_07: She was quite adept.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_07: She's left very, very large shoes to fill.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_07: And I'm not sure that that's with her style the way she was, that's not going to be an easy feat.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_06: Oftentimes I would read my horoscope for the month after the month because I just had not picked up the publication or whatnot.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_06: The interesting thing to me was sometimes like, wow, that was so on point.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_06: But like I said, I'm not a big believer in it, but it was always interesting to me.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_06: But what you said about Lily, about her kindness and her carefulness with people, I think that is so true.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_06: I always sensed that about her.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_06: That to me, the loss is not at her as an astrologer, it's her as a friend.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_06: And I'm at that age where I'm losing a lot of people.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_06: It's uh some are more difficult than others.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_06: And this was one of the more difficult ones in part because I always felt that Lily was part of our Queer Voices family.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_06: And I know the folks over at Outsmart are all heartbroken, and there's a community.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_06: When when you look these days, how do we find out about someone's passing?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_06: Too often it's we open up Facebook and there it is.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_06: You know, you have to think about it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_06: You have to sit there for a minute and go, my gosh, uh, and and then the grief sets in.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_06: And that that's one of the things about Lily's passing is that it I want to honor her and I want to celebrate her.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_06: I know there's going to be a service.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know if it's being called a celebration of life.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_06: Can you give me the details on that?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_06: I can because I've been instrumental in getting it set up.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_07: Um basically, I let me let me let me give you the details here, but let me go back and address something that you said.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_07: Lily is was probably the most evolved human walking the planet that I know.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_07: Um and I say that for multiple reasons.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_07: I I I've addressed her kindness and and her insights into psychology and then into the world of astrology.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_07: Whether you believe in it or not, I will tell you that she she probably, as she did for me and many other people, she was spot on to every significant event in my life from the time that I knew her to the time that she passed.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_07: But the thing that is so remarkable about Lily is that she lived her life authentically and with courage.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_07: You can just look at how she started out living her life in a relationship with a man as a gay couple in college, and then came to Houston and um ended up getting married to a straight woman for a while.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_07: And then I never will forget when they got a divorce, and then uh she called me one day, and she had been giving a lot of thought to transitioning, and she said, I wanted to call you and let you know that I've decided I'm gonna go ahead with this.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, Well, what does Yvonne think about that?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_07: And her answer was immediate and precise.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_07: Yvonne loves me, so it doesn't matter.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, Well, that's the right answer, and I guess I'll see you at the uh lesbian dances on New Year's Eve then.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_07: So welcome to the club.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_07: And we had a good laugh about that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_07: Lily was so much more than an astrologer, she knew what it meant to be courageous and how she lived her life, and she was committed to living her life authentically.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that because she had so many different perspectives that gave more impetus to her humanity to others.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_07: And this morning I I was at a church service.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_07: The minister talked about that God does not judge, that God looks at love, and that all beings are entitled to be love.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_07: And then he told the story of someone who had transitioned.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_07: And I immediately started crying because I started thinking of Lily.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_07: And when you think of the courage that it took for her to live her authentic life in spite of many of the obstacles that now exist for trans people or queer people, anybody who is beyond the mainstream, I think that is Lily's lasting legacy.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that is the gift that she has given to so many people, particularly in the Houston community.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_07: I was a main part of the Houston community for years and years and years, and just recently in the last five years, relocated in North Carolina.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_07: Everybody knew who Lily was.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, there will be a celebration of life service.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_07: It is going to be on December 6th.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_07: It will be at the Montrose uh Counseling Center.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_07: We chose that venue because we felt that probably her visibility and the most number of people she touched were familiar with that location.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_07: It'll be at two o'clock from four o'clock.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_07: And we welcome anybody who knew of Lily, knew Lily to come celebrate her life with those of us who care deeply about her.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_07: She's with us every day, I tell you.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_07: I get a reminder every single day since her passing.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_07: She she's still talking to us.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_07: And is my understanding corre correct that uh people are invited to bring food?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, we're good.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_07: We're good, there's a there's a few core of us that are bringing some food, but the room holds 130 people.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_07: We have no idea.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, we're not taking RSVPs, it's a come as you are kind of thing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and we've got a few speakers that will be talking at the event, but it it is meant to be a celebration of life.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_07: And if people want to bring food and we'll have a place, there's gonna be a social time immediately after the uh celebration of life that people can converse and tell great Lily stories because God knows she had a great sense of humor.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_07: She was one of the funniest people I knew.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_07: And half the time we'd be on a Zoom call and we'd look at each other and bust out laughing, and everybody looking like, what are you laughing about?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_07: But she was very, very funny.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_07: And so she was she would want people to have a good time in her memory.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_06: There is an article in Out Smart magazine, and in it, Yvonne talks about her experience with Lily as Lily's partner and going through that time of transition.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_06: It there was just love there, and you love the person, and that was so wonderful.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_06: All trans people, when I think about what they go through to be their authentic selves, uh is there's so many lessons to learn from that.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_07: She was authentic, and you knew that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_07: She led other people to have a courageous life because she was living her life courageously.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_07: I truly believe that that is probably the biggest gift she gave anybody who had any contact with her at all.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_07: She's a humanitarian and and and will be sorely missed, particularly in this time.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_06: Music was important to Lily, and I remember hearing her and Phyllis Fry play in duet together.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and I certainly enjoyed myself listening to the music and enjoying that.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_06: Can you tell me more about other things Lily was involved in?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_07: Those of us who knew her really well, we basically called her a master detective.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_07: He was when she dug into a subject matter.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, she she would dig in deep.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_07: So she's done a lot of astrological and history research.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_07: She, when I first met Lily, was very much into Tai Chi, did a ton of the martial arts type things, actually, for a while was wielding a sword.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_07: And I was like, careful, you could hurt yourself.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_07: But she was very physically active.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_07: We used to speed walk all the time around Memorial Herman Park.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_07: But basically, her guitar, she loved to serenade us before we'd start class on Thursday nights in the astrology class.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_07: But she just she just scared about people.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_07: She was really one of those people that really cared about people and where they were coming from.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_07: Now she was also quite truthful, okay?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_07: She wouldn't just tell you what you wanted to hear, which part partly goes with that authenticity that she has.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_06: Did Lily have any indication about her health situation?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_06: It seemed like it was so sudden because I had not heard about her being ill or anything, but she just had a heart attack.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, she she just had a physical two m two months prior, and the doctor said she was fine, meant to go suddenly.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_07: I I I feel like she was probably one of the fortunate ones.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_07: I certainly hope that I get to go out that way.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_07: But yeah, she was she was been given a clean bill of health and just had a heart attack.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_07: She didn't suffer, which we are all very grateful for that.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_06: Certainly.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_06: It just is another lesson there that you just never know.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_06: And so that message about living your life as though each day was your last day, because it could be.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_06: And if you can't go peacefully in your sleep, something that's quick is much preferable to many other things like a long-suffering illness.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_06: Can you tell me a story about Lily that you think exemplifies her persona?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_07: I know I know that one of one of my favorite stories.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_07: We used to, like I said, speedwalk and exercise together a lot.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_07: At the at at the time, I was trying to figure my whole thing out.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I looked pretty heteronormal normal at the time.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_07: Lily could always press better than I ever could when we'd be speedwalking.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_07: And so it was pretty funny.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_07: My mom, my mom decided to get remarried and just insisted that I had to wear a dress because I had started making changes and I was coming out.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_07: She she took me to a beauty pageant shop and made me buy one of these sequin dresses that that was just glittered from here to uh the horizon line.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_07: I wore it for 20 minutes and then I decided that the best way to to honor that dress was to give it to Lily.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, baby, you could wear this far better than I ever could.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_07: Well, we we used to always joke about the fact that we kind of traded places because I look a lot more masculine now.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_06: That's funny.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_07: And so we we would all the time kid about, well, God, if we had pictures of us back then to compare to now, it would be like a comedy show.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_07: But uh, you know, I think she helped people on all levels, and I think that's a good example.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, she helped people find themselves.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I mean, what greater gift to be able to give people, whether it was just through talking to you or through astrology counseling or whatever the modality it was at the moment, or playing her guitar or cracking jokes.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_07: It it didn't matter.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_07: She she was there for the human experience.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_07: I have a very heavy heart because there's a lot of us that are gonna really miss her.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_07: I know that she's not gone, but we're still gonna miss her every day.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_06: So this is Deborah Moncrief Bell.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_06: I've been talking with Lana Koble about the life of Lily Roddy.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_06: Lily, a longtime astrologer and dear community member, passed away earlier in the month of November due to a sudden heart and heart attack, and she will be greatly missed.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_06: There'll be a celebration of her life on December 6th at the Montrose Center on Bernard Street from 2 to 4 p.m.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_06: And people are invited to bring finger foods, different kinds of foods to share and be in community and honor our dear, precious friend Lily Roddy.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, this is Brett Cullum, and today I am joined by Wesley Whitson.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_04: He's he's been on this show before.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: What the heck?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: He's an actor who seems to be everywhere these days.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_04: Just recently, he played Hamlet and Hamlet for Fourth Wall Theater.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: Then he moved over to Main Street Theater, where he did the 39 steps and played like 39 freaking different characters.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Now he is at Rec Room Arts playing Prior Walter and Angels in America.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: And get this, they're doing both parts simultaneously.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_04: Over seven hours of theater in which Wesley is playing the lead.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: I'm exhausted just thinking about this.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: Seven hours.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_05: I know it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's a marathon.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: The biggest marathon.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, Angels in America, Tony Kushner, landmark epic play developed in 1990 at an LA workshop in the early 90s.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: It was just all about angels.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: The play itself is about New York during the 80s, the Reagan years, interweaving several different stories connecting these people.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: They're all struggling with uh relationships and their identities and the AIDS crisis and the politics.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, you're playing Prior Walter, who famously gets diagnosed at the beginning of the show and journeys on this whole thing and starts having visions and really sees the actual angel in the title of it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then we've got Roy Cohn in the mix, and we've got all of these different things: straight guys turning gay, gay guys breaking up.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's a whole hot take drama.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: So what made you want to audition for Angels in America?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's one of those dream shows.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_05: From the second that I first encountered it, I saw myself in it, and it became an aspiration to be in that show to tell that story.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's always had this pull to it.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I wasn't alive when it first premiered, but no kidding.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: Make me feel old.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: But it's importance.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_05: It can't be overstated.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_05: I remember the first time I encountered it was in high school in the library.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_05: And it was just the cover art that pulled me into it.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_05: The angel crouched over in shadow and her wings, they're the red, white, and blue wings.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember thinking, what is this?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_05: And I think a lot of the themes at the time that I first read it went over my head.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_05: But I remember being a senior in high school and the librarian saying, You need to take this home.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: And it was the um the HBO, the miniseries, the two, the 2003 mini-series.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_05: And oh my goodness, that's when it really, like for me, oh my goodness, this is this is funny, this is tragic, this is gay, and and unapologetically gay.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I think that's one of my favorite parts of the show is it's not pandering in any way.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_05: These are real people, and I think that's just it's a gift.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_05: It's a gift to get to work on and a gift to get to play.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, I kept thinking about you're so young, and you're young enough not to have lived through this.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I actually did.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: I actually went through it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: I remember that when the show premiered and the time period at this moment when Angels in America came out, it was just part of a larger dialogue.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: There was a lot of theater with centered around AIDS.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we had the normal heart and we had Angels in America, and we had Jeffrey, and all of this stuff that was addressing it from all angles.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: And this piece seems to have emerged from that pack.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: And it seems to have had some staying power, and it's still talking to people.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's what's so wild.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_04: But how did you, as somebody who really didn't go through this era, how did you prepare for this role?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, good gosh, Reagan America.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_05: It was a lot of just research.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: In the same way that I had to research for Hamlet, it was that all over again.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_05: It was providing myself with the necessary context to understand what kind of world I would have been living in.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_05: I watched that great documentary, How to Survive a Plague.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_05: Have you seen my goodness?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_05: It details act ups fight to be heard and then to get medication that could help curb the effects of AIDS, you know, hear us, hear us, hear our cry.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_05: There's this great book that I also read.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_05: It's an oral history of angels in America.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's called The World Only Spins Forward, and it details from its inception until now, when only it was that 2017 that it was at the National Theater.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_05: And that was really helpful as well to kind of hear from Tony Kushner himself what was behind the creation of this piece.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well what's funny was that Tony even admits it was just a dream.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: It was a dream that a friend told him about.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: About him being sick and an angel crashing through the ceiling.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: And it just it it was the imagery that kicked off this thing.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: But what's so wild is that you know it's about AIDS, but it is an America fantasia.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: It is taking the gay experience of that time and looking at our country and looking at the entrenched history and the movements of it, and just politics and the politics of disease and all of these different things that happen.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_04: And just, you know, by inserting this Roy Cohn, this nasty piece of work, this gay man who worked so hard against us, died of AIDS, and never wanted anyone to know he was a homosexual.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: And wild thing is, is that for today, he was a mentor and a lawyer for Donald J.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: Trump.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yep.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that just if that doesn't hit home.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: I know.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think that's probably a big part of why they programmed this show, is with conservatism on the rise again in this country, there are echoes of Reagan America even now.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: And what's funny, I asked my mom, were the Reagan years at all similar to what we're going through right now?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_05: And she was like, no.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: No, they weren't.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_05: There's no precedent for what we're going through.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: No, but I remember when Angels came out, Clinton was in office.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: And so Angels felt like a rear view look.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: I felt like we were looking back.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: And and right now, watching it again on stage, watching you all go through this, I feel like it's a preview of what's to come.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like now it's prophecy again.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, this is really making me antsy.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to fly off my seat because I just thought, oh, gosh, this has so much to say to today with that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: And you mentioned Act Up.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: They were very effective at what they did.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: But during the day when they were a lot of people were very critical.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of the gay people were very critical of them saying, You're going too far, you're doing too much.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: You need to shut up, you need to be nice, you need to not do this, you need to not attack.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: But good gosh, how much did they get out there?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: And how much did they speed up the AZT trials and all of that kind of stuff?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really is about activism, and it's really not about sitting in your department and being pity party for yourself.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_05: This is, I think, it's a battle cry in a lot of ways.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: The great work begins, is not so much a declaration as it is like, act up, get out there, do something about this.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_05: Don't don't just sit sit and you know, let pass by.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I have to ask you, this cast, good lord.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: It is like they went and they said, okay, who's the best person at the alley?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, we'll take her.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_04: Who's the best person at stages?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, we'll take her.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_04: Who's the best person at Catastrophic?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: We'll take him.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm just like Susan Coosin opens the show, is the the part that Cindy Nixon did on Broadway, and you know, just as a rabbi and does all these male parts, totally different for Susan, but just amazing.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then you've got Greg Dean as Roy Cohn.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, my lord.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_05: I know.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_05: Gnashing, gnashing teeth is how he described that character.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's a flawless thing.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's amazing.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: And then you're retained with Meg Rogers because you guys did 39 steps together.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: I have to tell you that I've seen the show many, many times because I was, you know, like I said, I was there at the beginning.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: I love her Harper.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's a little bit different.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's a really neat, she does a very signature thing to it.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_04: And then, of course, you've got Elizabeth Black.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_04: She's a master at comedy, but she's also really good at carrying the weight of things.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: Just an incredible group of actors.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: What's it been like working with this cast?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_05: I'm wonderful.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_05: You know, the funny part about Angels is a lot of it, it is so epic, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_05: Most of the scenes are little two-hander scenes.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's not all eight of us are all on stage at once.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_05: Most of it is really intimate, despite its scope.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_05: So a lot of the rehearsal process would be us with just the scene partner that we were working with at that time.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: It it wasn't until recent that I feel like we've all sort of been in the room with one another and we've been able to see what other people are doing.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: And Angels is one of those plays where it's like every single scene you watch, you're like, oh my God, that's such a good scene.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_05: And then the next scene will happen.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_05: You're like, oh my God, what an incredible scene.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_05: It keeps on sort of building upon itself.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_05: And yeah, it's been a pleasure to be in the room with all of these people.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_05: They're just, they're very inspiring actors.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_05: I was telling them that last night of just like, what a gift to be able to work with each and every one of you.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_05: You make me want to be better, you know.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_05: You see people like that doing such good work, and it it makes you want to step up to the plate.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's an interesting thing because Rec Room Arts is a very ambitious theater, but they only have 60 seats.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's a small space, it's very intimate.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: We're we're we are right on top of you as an audience, and we can see every little flicker of anything that's going on.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: So faces.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a very neat way to experience Angels in America.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: Your directors, it's Matt Hewn and Sophia Watt, very likely sublikely people for rec room.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: How did they divide this job of directing?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_05: Did Matt directed Millennium and Sophia is directing Perestroika?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: They've been able to watch both throughout the process and and give us notes from their own perspective, which has been really nice.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_05: When you're working on only one show for so long, it's really nice to have going into Perestroika and seeing, oh, that's how this part of Millennium is connecting to this part of Perestroika, I think can kind of inform the storytelling we're responsible for in part one or part two.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_04: How long did you rehearse?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_05: Oh boy.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_05: It was about 50 rehearsals and approximately 220 rehearsal hours.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_05: Two months.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_05: Two months.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when they did this thing on Broadway, they did Millennium.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: And then they waited six months or eight months, and then they brought in Paris Tort.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't do it together.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_05: This is not typical.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_05: What we're doing is not typical.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_05: To do both at the same time is, I mean, it's a real challenge.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: It would have been a real challenge if we were only doing one of them.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of people don't understand what this is because you referenced the Mike Nichols HBO miniseries.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_04: And the miniseries is the script.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's a little bit cut down.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's only six hours, so they take out about an hour.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_04: So you will see more material.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's really cut up in part two.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_05: Millennium, it sounds like he's been, Tony Kushner has been pretty confident in Millennium since it first premiered.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_05: Like, and it is kind of a well-made play, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's kind of gotten this natural dialogue to it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's only once the angel arrives that everything sort of breaks open and it gets it gets weird in part two.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: But I think that what a lot of people don't know is that Mike Nichols did a naturalistic view of it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: He he took it to film and he did some beautiful photography.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_04: But the original origins of this show was that it was going to be Berthold Brecht or Erwin Piscator.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: It was going to be this epic theater, which has its idea that it's always going to remind you that it's theater.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: You're going to see the actors do the scene change.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: You're going to see them do costume changes.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: You're going to see them talk about subversive political themes.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: And those gentlemen back there, when they had that movement, they wanted to up-end society.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: They wanted Brecht didn't even like that term.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: He called it dialectic theater because he wanted to have these deep ethical discourses that were entertaining, but he wanted to talk about politics and all this other stuff.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: And Kushner kind of embraces that.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_05: The script really does lend itself to screenplay because a lot of it is scenes, right?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_05: And when you put split screens on camera, it's gonna just look like editing.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna look like cuts from one scene to another.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_05: But on stage, there's a real heightened theatricality to that.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_05: One scene is being played downstage while another one is happening upstage.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you guys do that amazingly.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: You overlap over each other.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_05: That was something that they did in the national theater production that we we read in the The World Only Spins Forward.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: It was a way that to kind of keep the flow of the play going, for it to be all one seamless hole.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_05: Because the scenes are they're rapid fire, right?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_05: And they're they're kind of short and choppy and it it can stop the flow if there's a scene change after every single blackout.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_05: We've got to change the the set.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's like one big pressure cooker, is the way that Matt kept on describing it.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_05: We're gonna keep on ratcheting up the tension, ratcheting up the tension.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's gotta keep on moving, keep on moving, keep on going.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: Great job on that.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's got a lot of things that are scary for actors.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you've got to do a lot of physical things and you've got to play being ravaged by a disease.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and kind of fall apart on stage and to do a lot of really vulnerable scenes.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, the doctor's exam scene is pretty dang vulnerable.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_05: It is, yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: So did any of that give you any pause?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: Were you nervous about that?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_05: No.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you you sort of have to be.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_05: It's asking you to step up to that would have made me so nervous.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_05: Why would it have made you why would it have made you nervous?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's a lot to ask for an actor to really expose everything, to play and and not only expose everything, but to do it in a state of sickness, to have sores, and to have things like what Walter, prior, prior Walter has to do.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's he's in a very compromised, it's it's not sexy.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_05: No, it's not.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_05: And that's not body horror.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_05: That's the part of it that I think I I don't want to say I took comfort in, but like it would be different if I were a sexual scene that I were performing on stage and I was stripping down.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: That would make me feel vulnerable in a different way that this does.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_05: This is serving the story, and I also find it to be really political.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: What Tony Kushner is doing is forcing an audience to look at something that they at the time were not looking at, that they were not talking about.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_05: We're not having this conversation.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_05: For God's sake, Ronald Reagan wasn't saying anything.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_05: How many years was it before he even addressed the crisis?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I think what he, what Tony Kushner is doing here is really powerful.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: He's forcing people to look.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_05: This is what it is.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know, how that second act opens where you see how much prior has deteriorated and you see him defecate on stage.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_05: Like he's really forcing an audience to to confront the disease in a way that I think they otherwise would not.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_04: No, absolutely.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it's right there.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_05: It's right there.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it we're so intimate.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really striking.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_04: And then you guys have had like intimacy coaches, Hebrew coaches, all these different things.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: You've got all these wigs and all these costumes because not only are you playing in one character, but you're playing several characters.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: All of you actually go in and out of different characters.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't think that Susan Cousin is a woman, except for like maybe one scene in the first part.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_05: The end of Act Two is when she finally shows up as her like main Hannah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_05: There's a story from the most recent National Theater production.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_05: The woman who was playing Hannah came in the first day and asked Tony Kushner, she was like, Why am I playing all these male parts?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_05: There's gotta be some core sort of reason for it, some sort of connective tissue.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_05: And he looked at her and said, just have fun with it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then plus, I mean, oh my gosh, Meryl Streep played that in the miniseries.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know Meryl Streep.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: She probably actually transitioned.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_04: Well, this is a show that the Queer Voices audience would definitely need to see.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: So it is Rec Room Arts.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: And what are the dates again?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_05: How long do you guys run for?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_05: We'll run until December 20th.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_04: And you're gonna do days where you do the both of them the same day?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: There will be dinner served in between the shows.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_04: They actually serve dinner?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_05: They're going to be serving dinner.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: I I don't have more details than that, but we've been told that they're going to be serving dinner in between the shows.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_05: And those dates are Saturday, November 29th, Saturday, December 6th are the marathon days.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right around Thanksgiving.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody bring your leftover Thanksgiving for Angels of America Marathon.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_04: And we'll have a potluck.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_04: And Rec Room Arts, I mean, it's a small space, so tickets are gonna be hard.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: You gotta really put them in advance for sure.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_04: I I got them months ago.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, literally.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: And when I looked, the early part of the run is pretty, pretty tight already.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_05: I I'm really, really hopeful that people will will come out to see it.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting what the show has meant through different points in time.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_05: When you were talking about in the Clinton years when it first premiered, it was on the tail end of the AIDS epidemic.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_05: There was a lot of anger still surrounding it.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_05: Listen to us, hear us.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_05: And then a couple years later, when it was revived, I when they did it in the 2000s, and that's during Obama years, it became this sort of story about hope and belief and and moving forward.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_05: And now I wonder what it will mean to audiences in 2025.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_05: I'm really, really curious to see what the response to it is now.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and the ones that I'm most curious about, like I sat behind two older gentlemen last night and they had seen myriads of productions of it.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they and then they lived through it.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_04: They were the generation that really went through this period.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: And for them, I'm sure it was like going back in time and seeing this.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: I'm more curious to see what your generation is gonna react to it because you weren't there.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: You came out in the age of prep and treatment, and it wasn't a death sentence.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: I still remember the times when if you heard somebody tested positive, it was like the floor dropped out, and you thought, oh my gosh.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I cannot tell you how many people I knew that ran up their credit cards, that wiped out their retirements, sold their insurance because they were convinced that they were gonna be gone.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: And God bless them, some of them are still here today.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_04: And and thank God, but they didn't think they would be.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: They thought, for sure, I'm I'm blowing this out.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm I'm out of here because of this.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: It really was a death sentence for so long.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: And now, thank goodness we've got all of these things to combat to where it is even the Crowfoot clinic is working on immunization against it.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: I think they've had some early success with it, but it's it's interesting.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: It could be eradicated as long as we do this.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: But then now we have these people that are anti-vaccine.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: Measles is a thing now.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, what where are we going?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like we're going backwards.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what scares me about Angels in America today is that it feels like, hey, this is coming to tractions now, you know, except for it may not be just an isolated thing.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: It could be like a COVID.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_05: And they're talking about marriage rights are maybe going to be revokable.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_05: They're talking about the Supreme Court is is talking about this is something that could be taken away and we'll have to fight for it again.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I think this play is asking us to keep that fight.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: Removing gay marriage has been on the Republican platform for a long time, just like abortion was.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: And abortion back to the states.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_04: I I have no doubt that they are going to try everything in their power to return this to the states as well.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then guess where we'll be in Texas?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just like our crosswalks.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely get out and support Angels in America and see what it's saying about that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_05: I love that they're painting the sidewalks in Montrose right now.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: It seems everywhere you turn, there's there's flags that are popping up.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: We won't.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, no.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Corny Vibes did a whole mural.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna see a resurgence of rainbows in the Montrose area.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I hope so.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: We're PO'd.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_04: If you're angry, if you're frustrated, go see Angels in America at Rec Room Arts through December 20th, 2025.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_04: Because Millennium has come and gone and we're still dealing with this crap.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: What the heck?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: Tony Kirstner knew that this was gonna speak to the ages.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_05: I truly believe it is, I think it's the greatest American player.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you did Hamlet and then you do this.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know where you go from here.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you go?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: Next episode.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: You've already, I mean, you might as well retire, Wesley.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_05: Like I said, this is gonna, I'm gonna be taking a nice long break after this.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_04: If anybody deserves it, it's you.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: My lord.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: Well, break legs, and we'll see you in Angels in America.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everyone, Lee here, and I'm with my husband Brett, and we're gonna talk about something that took place on November 10th.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: The Supreme Court rejected a request to revisit the decision on marriages between two people of the same gender.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Personally, I'm relieved and grateful that on that day, uh, equality won the day.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it does leave me asking the same questions I've asked for for many years.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Why are some people so deeply tangled up in the personal lives or choices and happiness of others?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Why is someone else's love such a threat?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Why does a human being's ability to build a family somehow become a battlefield for people who are not affected by it in the slightest?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: It will never make sense to me.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Energy that they're spending and willing to spend trying to take rights away from other neighbors and family instead of working on the world in a kinder, safer, and more supportive place for everyone.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: So my thing is we could invest that passion into reducing poverty, strengthening our education, supporting our veterans, protecting children, improving health care, or so many other areas uh that would preserve this planet.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: Love has never been the problem.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's the hate, the fear, and control that have always been the much bigger threats to our fabric of our society.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: Today, I'm thankful, thankful for everyone who supports us.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: I personally will continue to stand inside of dignity, compassion, and respect, even when it's exhausting, as it has been in the last several years.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: For now, love is love, and we won the day.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think about it?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: That's a lot to take in at one thing, but you know, I wanted to talk uh specifically about same-gender unions and give some history and context to explain where we are today and how we got to this moment where it was possibly going to change one more time in Swain.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_04: I was really scared.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that that might actually happen because we saw it happen with abortion rights, and I just thought, well, there we go.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's the next thing that they want.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: So, but when we look at it worldwide, same gender unions are legally performed and they're recognized in over 38 countries.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: So about 1.5 billion people, 20% of the world's population, can actually marry someone of the same gender in the US.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: One of the funny episodes in history, I mean, it comes from Minnesota, so it made it even more funny of all places, yes.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: Where you're from, right?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: Michael McConnell and Jack Baker were the first same-gender couple in modern recorded history, they actually got a marriage license because they went in separately.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: Was that it?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: It went in separately, and one used his initials and not his full name.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: So when they went to get the court to actually process it, they got the piece of paper, but they refused to.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_04: And it was never legally recognized in the United States, but they got a license.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: That was back in 1971.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: So the year before I graduated, and I do remember that story hitting the newspapers at the time.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, at that time, I was still thinking there has to be other people like me.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: And here they show up in the newspaper trying to get married.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, how do I find those people in the world that I live in?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so then beyond that, in 1989, Denmark became the first country to legally recognize relationships between two people of the same gender, establishing a registered partnership, uh, which gave them the same rights or most of the rights that a married couple would have that are not of the same gender, but it did not give them the right to adopt or obtain joint custody of a child.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: So they were blocking that part of it of establishing a family.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: But the legal recognition of same-gender marriage in the United States expanded from one state, which started Massachusetts was the first of all places, 2004, and it became the law of the land in all 50 states in 2015, following the Supreme Court's ruling, the historic Ober-Jafel versus Hodges, that states have to adhere to the rulings by the Supreme Court, and that recognized marriage as a fundamental right guaranteed by both due process clause and the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: So constitutionally it was declared legal some of the facts and on how this has changed, where we've come as a society.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: May of uh 2025, they did a poll.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: They found that 68% of Americans support marriages between two people of the same gender.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: 88% of the Democrats, 96% of independents, and 41% of Republicans support it, which is I find that interesting.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: So support among Republicans is lower than it has fluctuated with the 2024 poll indicating a 46% support, a decline from a high of 55% in 2021 and 2022.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it's it's declining, which I think is interesting.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_04: It hit a high.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: But the Republican Party for a long time in their official party platform, and I know this because I've read it, they targeted same gender marriages.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it was part of their mission, it was their vision for the country.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: But this is a little bit wild.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_04: Donald Trump's campaign actually removed that in 2024, and it's just now a general support for the sanctity of marriage.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know how that factors in, but there you go.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_04: So in 2022, Trump versus Jackson overturned Roe v.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_04: Wade.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: That was horrible.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that was, I remember that vividly.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, the anger from my female friends was just wild.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_04: But Justice Clarence Thomas suggested in his ruling, in his remarks, that Ober Jaffel versus Hodges and same-sex marriages nationwide could be revisited.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: And that basically emboldened the Republicans.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_04: They thought, you know, hey, there's a shot.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: So there was a lot of state-level resolutions that were passed, like Idaho, Michigan, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_04: They put resolutions urging the Supreme Court to overturn their decisions.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's been really wild.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: It has been.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: It has been.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: And what they're trying to do is get it to return to the state's decision, which there have been efforts by the Republican lawmakers here to revisit the marriage between couples that are the same gender.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: These actions could occur except for the Respective Marriage Act, which is currently in place.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: It ensures that the that the marriage equality that we enjoy today wouldn't be overturned by a state ruling that they would have to recognize our marriage if it's performed in a state where it's legal, which ours was.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: Now we have to talk about the woman that is in the center of this storm, Kim Davis.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: She was an American former county clerk in Rowan County, Kentucky.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: She served there from January 2015 to January 2019, and she got huge attention in August 2015 when she defied a U.S.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_04: federal court order to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: So a lawsuit was filed against her, and the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Kentucky ordered Kim Davis to begin issuing marriage licenses.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: She appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court, but the application to appeal was denied at that time.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_04: And Davis continued to defy the court order.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_04: She refused to issue licenses under God's authority, which were her words, and she ultimately ended up in the clink.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_04: She was jailed for contempt of court and was ordered to pay ultimately$360,000 to the same-sex couple who she refused to marry.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_04: Davis was released five days later.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_04: She just spent five days in jail, under the condition that she not interfere with the efforts of her deputy clerks, who had already begun issuing marriages license in her absence.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_04: Davis basically passive aggressively changed the Kentucky marriage license used in her office so that her name wasn't on it.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: She has been working ever since trying to get this Supreme Court decision to be returned.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: And the Republican Party's been supporting her, hoping to overturn this, much like they did with the abortion case.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_04: Now, what do you think of Kim Davis?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, she's uh a kind of a polarizing figure, obviously, because not only is she the poster child for this effort, but she's also got some crazy lifestyle.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're going to pick someone to be your poster child for for this particular item, why would you pick someone who's been married four times to three different men?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I don't want to pass judgment on that.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we know a lot of people that have been married more than once.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: They live in a world where uh that should be okay.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, to to make that your history and then stand and say, okay, on religious grounds, I'm not going to process these just doesn't make sense to me.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't seem exactly pious.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't seem like you're following the letter of the biblical law and that you would be the person that would say the sanctity of marriage, because she went back and forth with a couple of these guys and she had babies outside of when she was married to them from them.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: She has four children.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_04: Now, two she had to carry via surrogate.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: So again, a very non-traditional family when you look at it.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: But basically, she owes$360,000 in damages.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: And that comes from$100,000 that was awarded to the same-gender couple by a jury for emotional distress, but it was the legal fees that is the killer.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's$260,000 in legal fees that she's owing.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, this most recent thing with the Supreme Court that they said they might hear her, but then they decided no.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: Thank goodness.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_04: But we're not out of the woods yet, are we?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: The marriages between two people of the same gender could still be overturned.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: But it's unlikely, uh, in the at least the foreseeable future.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: Supreme Court rejected the challenge by Kim Davis and they decided not to hear it.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: But the future court could overturn uh the precedent set by the how do you pronounce his name?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's Oberfell versus Hodges.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: But it would be a rare and difficult process.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Even if the court did overturn it, there is still in place the Respect for Marriage Act, which requires all states recognize existing marriages, whether it's between two people of the opposite sex or or two people of the same sex.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and it begs the question of our marriage would be okay, right?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because we're in Minnesota, and as long as Minnesota keeps that legal, which thankfully they were the first one to issue a same gender marriage license in 1971.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_04: But if Texas decided not to do it, that's that's interesting because would that invalidate the people that got married in Texas, or would they still have to I think that's an interesting question.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people that did get married in Texas because of the federal requirement.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: However, Texas still has it on their books that they don't support marriage between two people of the same gender.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: Now, the only ways that they can do this is a constitutional amendment, which that is hard.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: That is a difficult, that is lengthy, that is rarely done in these days.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: You do not see constitutional amendments very often, but there could be a new Supreme Court decision.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's definitely what they were hoping for with this Kim Davis appeal.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: But it's kind of weird because it's rare that they overturn their own precedent.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_04: But it's that whole Roe v.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_04: Wade thing, that was that was back in the 70s, and they overturned that.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_04: So it could happen.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_04: And there's definitely some future challenges that we have that they could.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's right.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: If they overturn their decision, what happens then does it fall back to the states?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever the states' laws say and allow, that's what it falls back to.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_04: So did you ever think in your lifetime you would see the ability for the LGBTQIA plus community to get married to each other?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, even when we met, that was still not something we met in 2005.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: Even at that time, I did not think that there would ever come a day where marriage between two people of the same gender would be the law of the land that it would be able to happen anywhere.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: That just never occurred to me.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: I remember when they did sodomy laws and that went all the way up to the Supreme Court and it became where we were legal.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that was where it ended.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_04: I thought that was our big victory for this 25 years.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_04: But no, it went it went forward.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_04: And 2015 was very surprising to me when it when it came down from the Supreme Court.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, that was during the Obama administration, and that was a huge, huge thing.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_04: I remember pride just exploded that year.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: And now it seems like a lot of marriages now in the US.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's a a significant amount of gay marriages now.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: There are.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, a lot of the people that we know are married.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: And it's interesting because we look at divorce rates, and divorce between two guys is low.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: Really low.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_04: Man and woman comes in second, and woman and woman comes in third, is like the highest divorce rate.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: So it's interesting.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: It is interesting.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of a new thing.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and talked about that.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: So we when we met and first decided that we were going to live together and and and life as a couple, it never it never occurred to us that we could get married.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: So we're doing that by choice.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're doing it without inviting the the government into our relationship.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: But then suddenly, but for me, when New York passed the ordinances that that or laws that that two people of the same gender can get married, then I thought, okay, this might end up becoming the law of the land at some point in time.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when we got engaged.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then when Minnesota passed it, my dad called me and asked, when are you two coming up to get married?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: And until then it really had not set in that we we could set a date and actually get it done.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: So and for you, what was your thoughts?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the before thinking we are not going to be able to get married or it's not even occurring to you to now, we can get married and have.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: What was different for you?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: It changed everything.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: The thing that was interesting is that people get hung up on the sanctity of marriage.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_04: And for me, it's not a religious thing.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's there was never a religious element.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: And even in our ceremony, there was no religious language used.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_04: It is absolutely about these things.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: In the 90s, I saw people who were longtime partners who were absolutely disenfranchised when one of their partners died, and the family swooped in and took over all their assets.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_04: And this was at the time of the AIDS epidemic.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_04: So they died in a very horrible long-term medical fight, and the family wasn't even there.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_04: And they came in and took everything from the other partner.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_04: And that is a legal protection.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think that marriage is a legal protection for us to be able to see each other in the hospital, even.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what it means to me, more so than just like some kind of I'm not trying to shake the pillars of religion.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, no, no, absolutely not.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is totally just a civil thing.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: We want the same civil pro protections that my married siblings get in our marriage as well.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: And your point is so well made.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because yes, we have seen so many times where one of the families will come in and just try to take everything.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Our our good friend, his uncle, living in New Orleans.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: The when his partner passed, he had willed everything to his partner.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: But even then, even still, the family came in and tried to take everything.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was so difficult, he ended up letting them take it and just moved on in his life.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what a what a sad statement.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: You build a life together, and then somebody else comes in and crumbles it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's not right.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, wills do not stand up to probate court.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if probate court enters, if somebody challenges it and says, you know, look, I'm a blood relative, and these people were not married, so I am entitled to this.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_04: If they don't have that legal protection, then they are wide open to it.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a lot of concern because I know that if I were to get sick or hospitalized, I want the ability and the legal protection for you to be able to come in and make decisions and be there because you are my family, and I don't want my extended family to make those decisions.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_04: That's definitely one of the things.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really about rights, isn't it?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's not that's the thing about Kim Davis is she talks about that it's under God's authority.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, this doesn't have anything to do with God in my eyes.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just the implication of that is that we are not under his umbrella.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact of the matter is we are under his umbrella.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: All humans are.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I just don't that doesn't even make sense to me.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it irks me that there's this idea of a separation of church and state, and they're going to make this a religious thing cause.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that this woman is going to continue to decry and appeal and all of that because a religious thing when I mean, honestly, she's I have been a serial marriage person.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_04: Only when it benefits her.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_04: Only when it benefits her.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_04: And that is one of the things that I think is wild.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_04: It does seem like that.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_04: And it seems like they're trying to take away rights from somebody.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_04: And once you've extended those rights to somebody, I think it's rough.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_04: Although, good gosh, we saw it happen with Roe v.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_04: Wade.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_04: That was crazy.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think that women definitely should have the ability to make decisions about their own bodies and their own conditions.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_04: And their health.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_04: And their health, yes.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: They don't need me to weigh in.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_04: No, I have the I have no say in that.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_04: And they shouldn't have say in our marriage.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_04: So are you scared?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_04: Do you feel like it could happen?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: I you know, I'm kind of back and forth on it a little bit.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it it would it would bother me more that they have enough support to make that happen.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: But even if the Supreme Court did overturn it, it it sounds like society generally, 68% of the people believe that it should be the law of the land.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: So society in general has has changed.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm less fearful of that.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, it would bother me tremendously that that we were a political pawn for somebody else's gain.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's a sad statement.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you know, and the thing that concerns me is that the Republican Party, 55%, 2021 down to 46% now, it's almost 10%.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_04: If that continues over the years, that could be a real ducky thing and make it even more and more partisan.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_04: But it's gonna take a lot to get to the whole society.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I think as a democracy, I think it's gonna be hard because it's not gonna be a popular vote kind of thing.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think it would ever come from a popular vote.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_04: No, I don't think so either.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_04: But if it serves a politician, that's my fear.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_04: So definitely stay vigilant and concerned.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_04: But we we definitely dodged the bullet recently, I think.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think so too.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: And thank goodness for that.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: I was very glad that they declined to hear it.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for listening to Queer Voices.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: From our family to yours, have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_04: Queer Voices is executive produced by Brian Plavinka.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: Deborah Bell, Brett Cullum, and Davis Mendoza DeRuzman helped to produce the show.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_04: Our contributors include Joel Tatum, Jacob Newsome, and Ethan Michelle Gantz.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_04: We are grateful for all of our staff.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_04: And remember that KPFT is listener-funded.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: You can make a donation and keep the queer voices coming at KPFT.org.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: Happy holidays, everyone.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Check our webpage queervoices.org for more information.