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POWER: GIFT OR CURSE? · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Married 30 years today.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow, cool, dude.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_05: Awesome.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_05: I never thought we'd get past five.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Congrats, man.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, thank you.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, man.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's see.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: We are live on Facebook.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: So how many years did you say it was?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: 30.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: 30 years married.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: Ken, you've been married how long now, Missy.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're moving into our 13th.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Rusty, how about you?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this will be our 15th.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, it feels like a trap.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I'm in trouble.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_05: It's only a trap if she's on the if she's watching it on her Facebook page.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the middle teens, insignificant milestone.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Tim, uh, Tim, are you allowed to date yet?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: They they do let me, yes.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_06: With the chaperone.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have to have a certain, you know, enough distance for uh for Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in between me on the dates.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: So how long have you been married, Turkey?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it'll be seven years in October.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the courtship ends at year eight, I think.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh deal.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what we talked about was we're starting this thing about power.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: And Vince, since you weren't here, ask any questions you have because if anybody else is hanging in there, they probably have the same question.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: What we're gonna do is uh, how many of you got the book?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: Did you guys get the book?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: Playing God.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: I haven't yet.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I have not yet.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's uh Plain God by uh Andy Crouch.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: Subtitle is Redeeming the Gift of Power.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: And um, it's just a brilliant book, man.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Takes a takes a I don't know if I call it counterintuitive, but it he just he just sneaks up on it pretty cool.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_04: But we're gonna possibly, and again, if we need to uh delay just so we can all get some of the reading done, that's cool.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if you could do that for me, that'd be great.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but we're gonna uh be using that book as a brat backdrop to our discussion.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: But what we said we'd do this week is each of us give some thought to just the concept of power.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and again, we're using power, and it's I guess you could say and it's as literal and broad.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, in other words, you can go anywhere you want to go for now.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: And uh we just thought we'd share some thoughts, get the discussion going about power.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the uh the the advertisement I use, I thought if we had to, we could um we could actually use the ad to uh I'm trying to figure out the quickest way for me to see it.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um we could actually actually use the ad to um as for the questions like what is it, who has it, is it good or bad?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_04: What does God say about it?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: Why don't we trust it?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_04: Can I be trusted with it?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um so you don't have to do that, but that's there if we want to use it.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: Hey Jeff, how you doing, man?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_04: Good, all right.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_04: So uh who wants to kick us off talking about power?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: And and guys, I don't necessarily mean this kind right here.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean we can talk about it if you want to, but I don't I don't want to shame you.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: So what are y'all thinking?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my, it's gotten quiet.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_04: All right, let's start in the nursery.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna start anyways.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna I was gonna go.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I had let's start in children's church.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm still feeling the love.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm just exercising my power.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and I'm feeling the control.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I um yeah, I had a few thoughts that kind of came uh as far as general sense, um, and then in one really particular instance that was significant um from the old testament, but I I just kind of just started with defining power, the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I thought first about kind of what we were talking about last week with God's kingdom um being uh excuse me one second.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: Slow slow down your definition and say it again.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: That was pretty cool.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: The capacity is power, yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is power.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I thought about uh I'll get to the Old Testament example first, but um, I thought about if if we're talking about the kingdom of God and him being in charge, that's his rule and reign, and then thinking about our control, like we talked about last week, and what is our role and responsibility.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if if we uh you know distill Dallas Willard, the divine conspiracy, his definition is to overcome the human kingdoms of this world with love, justice, and truth.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this includes the whole world and all of human society at the individual, corporate, and governmental levels.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I thought about the power that we have been given from Jesus, all authority was given to him by the Father, and then he commissions us in um in Matthew 28 to go and make disciples to bring the kingdom to advance the kingdom.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, just thinking about our power there, thinking about how we have power with our tongue, how you know Proverbs and so many scriptures speak about it having life and death.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if we are alive in God's kingdom, we've been commissioned, sent out, we have power to create or tear down with our words and with our actions.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that was one thought.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh an example of of how all that kind of went sideways with power and leadership was um was I was thinking about Rehoboam, um, you know, when Solomon died and his son became king, and how the people said, Hey, look, you know, this is how your father led us.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, could you um could you kind of take down the the level of in which he was leading?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: He was he was pretty cruel to us.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the scripture even talks about in 1 Kings 12.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he had uh they they had taxed um the taxes were so high they had been taxed heavily, and how Rehoboam um had wise counsel around him, and uh and they had given him wisdom, but um, but Rhoboam didn't listen to the wisdom.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: He listened to his friends who were around his age, and they saw the power he had to make the decision, the power he had just from the authority he had in the leadership position.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, his his line as he listens to his friends, he goes back to the people and says, My father laid on you a heavy yoke, I will make it even heavier.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: My father scourged you with whips, I will scourge you with scorpions.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then of course the people responded to that by rebelling.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the the kingdom of Israel was split and divided.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So um I just thought of how the power that he had and the opposition he had, how he didn't use it to to listen to wise counsel to wisdom, um, but he used it for gain, you know, politically, power, authority, um, and didn't take the advice and and the uh you know the devastating effects of that.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um those are just two kind of overall kind of good thoughts, examples, um, and then the not so good abuse of power um and see how it affected generations and generations by splitting the kingdom.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Chip when you last week, you know, mentioned maybe coming with a scripture or just whatever.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I immediately thought, and I was just looking it up, but they're both in Matthew 18.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I immediately thought about um, you know, Jesus said, Who's grace in the kingdom?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he and he brought a child up.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's so counterintuitive.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And when you think about we we had to enter the kingdom as a child.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the whole thing there of dependency, you know, being innocent, etc.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Then the other the other one that came to me immediately was the two disciples' mom who came to Jesus and wanted to make them great.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And again, his response was you know, let them be the servant of all.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, where we get power and what it is is just so so difficult from it's so different from everything we uh normally think about and finding the place where they actually can be used properly and intersect.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when I think about the kingdom, those are two two things that I thought about is that we we come totally dependent, you know, on him and have to come as a child.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then he said, if you want to be great, you know, serve, which I've already I've always understood that service is the tangible expression expression of love.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you kind of looked at love throughout the Bible, you know, it's not just obviously emotion, but most of it's you know, Galatians, you know, we're free, but don't use your freedom, you know, as for your own way, serve others.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so really it's a tangible act of and Dallas Willard again expresses defines love as willing the good of another.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: But how do I will the good of another?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not simply, well, I send you good vibes, but that I actually in some tangible way, if needed, sacrifice, surrender, and serve someone that's and that's how love is expressed.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think of I think of the interest of the kingdom and at the bottom line of power, you know, the thing of being as a child and the the virtue of love.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: How that's expressed and how we do it and where it goes, and you know, how we have influence on others, and but um that's what I think of.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing I thought, you know, real quick, I mean, I immediately thought of Acts, but we are also then given, you know, dunymus the power.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: So there is this union with Jesus now by the agency of the Holy Spirit that we have that dynamic as we're walking and living with him.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it all comes from dependency and not the other way around.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And everything in our everything in our life, our psyche, our world, our message that are sent, our own nature is to exert our own power, our own control, our own influence, our own will.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And yet the kingdom is just the opposite.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: The more we give up, the more he gives us, and we do it through him.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where the ultimate strength and power really comes from.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's so contrary to everything that we understand and lean toward.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I went.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm excited as we you know progress over the next few weeks, you know, getting to uh you know what's broken and why.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: Because, you know, starting with some of the thoughts Tim had, even the definition, you know, uh some of what you're saying, Ken.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean it ain't what we see.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's not what we see functioning around us, and whatever.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm I'm kind of excited about this.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's a cool direction to go.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so uh anybody else, what you think?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Can I make a um maybe just an observation?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, since we're talking about maybe this is the maybe this is the um almost the preface to future conversations we're gonna have.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of those kind of preface thoughts I had as Tim was sharing some of the definition of power, I began to think about that that it's um there were I I think my theory is that we are born with an ability to recognize power.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we have instinctual fears, uh, even as children, you you kind of research there's common psychological um fears of falling or heights or things that that prove to be fatal.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll say this: my observation is it's easy to recognize power, and yet it's very difficult.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: My theory, it's very difficult to define it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: When we begin to say, well, what is it?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's really put it into terms, let's really um explore.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's so much easier to point to and say, that's it, and that's it, that's it being good, or that's it being bad.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then to articulate, well, what is it?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: What am I seeing?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: It really gets challenging.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that maybe that's just a almost a preface thought or an elementary thought I had on power is that we often see it and and and know power is being used or wielded or misused or used in a way that's hurtful or helpful, and yet to slow the tapes down and say, well, what are we really seeing?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's what is the social exchange?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: What's the currency of power?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot harder to define, articulate, um, systematize, file.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just some of my initial thoughts.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then I think Russ, that's good.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, then you've got it on different levels.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's the individual, you know, then there's the collective, then the there's the institutional, and so there's different levels in which you think about and see power.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: So when we talk about it, we're probably gonna be bouncing to different ones of those levels, which they're all different and they all play out differently.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you're gonna love this book, man.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Ken, he talks about institutional power.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: Gosh, dude, it's just brilliant.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: It is absolutely brilliant.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's really cool.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: Rusty, I agree, man.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think, and that's part of why I'm excited because we're if we just don't get in a hurry and don't, you know, don't don't try to paint with a broad brush, I think we can we can kind of peel back some of the layers on why why the concept can be muddy.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um one of the things he says early in the book is that that that we live surrounded by power, swimming in it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I got lights on right now, that's power.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: It takes power to raise my arm for crying out loud.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's almost nothing that happens in our entire reality that doesn't involve some version of power.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: And obviously, we're you know, we're not necessarily gonna talk about you know the power it takes to move my finger, but but it's there's there's there's a relationship, like kind of what you're saying, Rusty, and it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be interesting, and hopefully, uh hopefully we'll hit some of the sharp edges too.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um how about somebody else?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Chip, I think you, you know, if you start wading into this area, you know, one thought uh that I had was that you know that to me, this conversation when you talk about power, uh uh identity is has to come into the conversation, you know, uh when you're talking about power.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think it this I think it's a this is a this is a good group in that it's you know you're gonna get different perspectives on this.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like your perspectives, mine's gonna be a little different, Tim's gonna be a little different, you know, just because of the age difference, I think, in in how we're how we are um creating and you know defining our own identities.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think this is this is swirling around in this conversation that makes it interesting to me.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, your uh our identity is a powerful thing in and of itself, you know, and and subconsciously we don't we don't even realize what's going on, you know, like every, I don't know, every few seconds our identity is resetting, it's it's rebooting, it's resetting in light of what you just said.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well, who am I?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: In light of what Tim just said, well, who am I?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: In light of what Rusty just said, well, who am I?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: We're constantly asking ourselves that question.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is going on inside our mind, we don't even realize it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Who am I?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Who am I?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Who am I?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: In light of what I just heard, who am I, who am I, who am I?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and there's a there's a there's a need for in all of that that's happening in you know in our in our brains that we don't even, it's not even like a top of mind kind of thing, but there's a need for that, uh, for power, you know, for a certain amount of power, uh, with with all that that happening, you know, in our in kind of our subconscious mind.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: But the verse that I that I had that I read this morning that I thought was from First Corinthians chapter one, which is uh verse uh 18.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: It says, for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: But to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I love and I like the quote you gave us from the book, the Andy Crouch book.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I like that quote.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the misuse and rejection of God's gift of image bearing takes the takes the form of idolatry and injustice, the two things God most hates.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: I love the first part of that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and where I see what's happening in that verse and talking about that the cross or the gospel is is is the power of God, is that the the gospel confronts idolatry in a way like nothing else.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that is if you read on, I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna read it all, but if you read further in there, you know, he kind of Paul goes on to say, you know, the Jews want the Jews basically, the Jews want power and the Greeks want wisdom.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: The Greeks love, you know, wisdom and beauty and you know, and all that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: The Jews want they want they want policies and they want rules and they want power, you know.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: They and and the gospel kind of confronts both of those.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and and it and it and it and you and you have to really to take it one step further, you kind of got to jump even over to James chapter one, where he says, basically, um matter whether you're rich or whether you're poor, that what the gospel does is the gospel, the gospel elevates the poor man, and the gospel brings, he he humbles the rich man.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: And both of those are places of honor with God.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what I and that's what I think that he's kind of saying there to me.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: I just I just made the note here that you know that that the gospel confronts confronts idolatry, the idolatry of wisdom and the idolatry of uh of power uh by leveling out the playing field, so to speak.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um that it includes everybody.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's open to anyone, no matter no matter where you are, that that it that it sort of level poor or rich, it levels that out, and it and it fulfills it fulfills those desires that we all have for power and wisdom, but it fulfills them in a way like nothing else.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that that was my thought on it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: Jeff, a question.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: Would it be wrong to insert the word in probably half the sentences you just used?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_04: Would it be wrong to insert the word potentially?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, it potentially lifts the poor, it potentially brings the the powerful down because clearly it doesn't automatically happen.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I guess the reason I'm bringing that up is that's kind of why we're talking about it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: Because I agree with everything you said, with the caveat that dear God in heaven, it just doesn't happen automatically.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I'm saying?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: Everything you just said is a truth represented by scripture, but where could we point where it's actually happening?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: Does that make sense?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I I think the state, you know, the state of our world, the fact that we do see so much idolatry and we do see so much injustice, I think it it, you know, that that makes the case.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, those are the the that's the evidence.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: When you see idolatry of of of of of of power and wisdom, and you see injustice, then you know that kind of I guess makes makes the case for us that when you see those things happening, and I think we can all agree we're seeing it happen, that that's where our whole the whole concept of the image bearing, we've we've just it's become distorted for us.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's good.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: Aren't those two words brilliant?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, three really image bearing, uh idolatry, and uh injustice.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you guys wait, man.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna love this stuff.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: With what Jeff said, that's where I would bring the individual you know concept back, because obviously the cross is a whole influence on the cause, you know, the cosmic influence.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: At the summary of the individual's life, the ability for power is really the ability to choose.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's where we've been, that's what we've been given.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what makes us different, you know, humans from every and from anybody else or animals is God has given us the free will, or let's just use the word agency to choose.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: So even though the even though the cross has come, you know, that then brings a new way of the power that we were just talking about there on the individual level, I still have the power, the agency to choose.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I choose that route.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And even if I come to the cross, which I think is where you maybe you're getting to just by responding to the gospel on the other side of the cross, I still have to choose.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And my agency to choose determines whether I live out of love, whether I stand for justice, you know, whether I walk in the nature of Christ.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say at the fundamental level, when I think about power, I think about we have been given the agency to choose.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: We still have a will that can go left or right, that can go for good or for wrong.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: The power, the the power of the cross gives us extra power to make that choice, but we still have to lie, have to live a life that's of agency that's made by choice.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I would go back to the individual level.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um because the cross well, I'll watch what I say here, but the cross doesn't have a lot of impact if we don't choose it, and doesn't have a lot of an impact if we don't continue to live out of it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: It is the central point of power in the world, but we still have to have the agency, the personal agency to choose.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that's and that's good, Ken.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that um the gospel confronts it, and then when it is chosen, it has the power to fulfill it in a way like nothing else.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's good, too.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, all identity and all power, I would even argue for that matter, has it has at its at its core a performative or a performance component to it.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right, yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and what makes what makes the gospel, I think what makes Christianity so so unique and and and special and and uh like nothing else is that it's the only identity that is received rather than achieved.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Totally, yeah.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really good.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: Russ man, you look like you're getting ready to say something.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I you know, I I I think we're I think what I'm always looking for, I'm always looking to kind of take um thoughts and and boil them down to their simplest um principles.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: But I wonder if I wonder if Tim uh Tim needs you to do that, by the way.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So but I what I wonder is like is what seems to be uh the principle that's that's in the discussion uh and is kind of seasoning a lot of these thoughts is just that um you know defining whether power or not is well whether sorry, I'm stumbling, if it's good or bad, or even like what you wrote as the title of this conversation, is it a blessing or a curse?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and I but I think it's duplicitous and complicated because um can I can can my power be a blessing for me and then a curse to Tim?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can I can I misuse it or wield it in such a way that my gain becomes his loss?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I so I just I think I think we're in this really complicated cultural moment when um the the things that are being debated, the things that are being discussed, the things that are being protested, the things that are being even bills written on Capitol Hill right now is about power, who gets it, how it's used, who benefits from it, who suffers as a result of it.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and and yet uh there seems to be this two-sided nature of power that if we you know, gosh, you know, it didn't take long to realize that um what started a lot of this discussion was was um some over policing and police brutality of uh you know an unarmed man on the ground.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and we saw this this power narrative playing out that was like just felt like I said, we could identify whoa, powers at at being used here in a wrong way, in a way that that internally we go, gosh, that's not there's this is wrong.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so now what what what was an altercation between a few individuals is indicative or reflective of this much greater power structure, authority of citizens or police, or freedoms, or rights, or uh, and then you get into does making the shifting power towards another faction, is that gonna is that gonna be for the betterment of all or some or to the detriment of all or some?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, super there's so much nuance and complexity here, but I think the church has seen for for years we've seen injustice, and and I think we speak a lot of times to the to the to the symptoms or to the fruit of injustice.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But this is one of the only conversations that I've seen that is really trying to go to the root of it and say, where where are we getting it wrong?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's the real sickness?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do we diagnose it so that the symptomatic injustices cease to surface and manifest or reduce uh yeah?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot of words just to say, boy, power is you know, it can be really good for some, and those that have it can certainly use it for the bad of others to hurt others.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_04: You know, uh, you know, Jeff, Jeff brought up the whole uh the gospel perspective.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, uh, one of the things I love about Christianity, not growing up in a Christian home, not growing up around a Christian worldview, getting radically saved in my early 20s out of Eastern religion and philosophy and drugs and whatever.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: My point being having a fresh set of eyes, if that if that's fair to say.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what I love about Christianity viewed properly, meaning it's not always viewed properly.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: And again, forgive me for implying that I think I'm viewing it properly, but um it answers questions really, really well.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_04: Now, the problem is, and Rusty, I think you're hinting at it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_04: I think we're trying to solve a problem at the uh at the fifth floor of the elevator when the problem's in the basement.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I was going.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's yeah, yeah.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, that's why honestly, I this this whole thing we're doing on power, this wasn't planned.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: You know, probably Rusty or Tim probably kicked us off in some direction last week with some.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Ken, it was probably a dumb question, right?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't remember, but probably some Tim probably brought up something weird, and we were trying to straighten it out, and we landed, we landed.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'm kidding.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but Rusty to your to your comment just there.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I hesitate to say it in any of the promotional stuff, but I think this is a really, really important way to approach the subject.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because it back to your question, is it good or bad?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is power good or bad?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: My answer is yes.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yes.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was going to the same place, you know, just with what Rusty said, is that you know, my pushback on that, or my my counter to that would be in some ways, we see it most magnified in the institutional expressions, you know, so it's it's so, and what we're dealing with right now is undeniable.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I I get I get despondent because I don't feel or see many remedies on that level.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whether it's political or laws or whatever, and I almost like, man, I just, you know, we've been here before.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is a more massive critical moment than I think cultural moment than we have been.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like if we don't, because here's the thing, it's interesting, even with the idol thing with Jeff was talking about, I think some of the big idols in our of our country, of our, you know, of the West is individualism and autonomy.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, when it comes to taking personal responsibility on an individual level, we don't want to do that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: We we've all been grouped in these labels now and categories, we're either left or right, we're either black or you know, white, we're either conservative or liberal or whatever.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: And yet none of those by themselves are going to deal with power.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think, if we're not going on the individual basis.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so again, I I it's we're we're seeing it most massive, like he's you know, like Rusty said, without a doubt we are.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, again, I kind of put things in boxes.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think individual, I think church, then I think you know, institutions from a from a king of perspective.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I would go back to if I had a basic definition as I'm thinking about it of power on the individual level, or maybe on all levels, I would say it's the agency to choose.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: We have been given the ability or the agency to choose.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: So power is good and bad.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: I may have the power, the ability to help my neighbor, or I have the pality or the ability to choose and to not help my neighbor.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I but some of the conversations on the on the higher level, I just don't have a lot of interest or leaning toward because I I don't know that there's a lot of remedies there.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if you vote for a certain person is gonna remedy some of this, I'm not you know, I'm not sure that.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good point, Ken.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like the I guess one of the real as you're as you're thinking, there's so many like thoughts.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to make sense of it in a way, like the what I I went to when you're talking about that right now is there's a monument in downtown Asheville.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you've ever been, it's uh the the Vance Monument, and it's from Zebulon Vance, who was you know a notorious white supremacist.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And for years it's been this point of contention downtown, um, especially in Asheville, being the you know more liberal progressive city that we are, um, that it's a point of contention for and hurt for you know um from someone or from a group of people.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Someone would say, you know, why are we monument just like Confederate monuments or whatever?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then another group is like, well, no, that's history, you can't tear down history.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so now there's this push in downtown um with all the events that the you know, if we're talking about power, now city council has voted to uh potentially remove it, and it's like the closest to it ever being removed that it's ever been.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got one group of people, you know, who are like, whoo, this is awesome, it's finally happening.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's good use of power in their minds because they're seeing it as yes, we're finally getting the power, our voices are being heard.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have a whole other group who are who are saying, you know, they're feeling like they're losing their their power or their voice because the thing that they, you know, the history, whatever they love about it, um, is some way they feel like it's being stripped.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like that's a metaphor for even a lot of things.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just so if you say, like, it's if your definition of good, like if you if you want the monument to come down, then that's a good use of power swinging in your favor.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: But if you like the monument and the historical aspect of it or whatever, then you feel like you're losing something.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I see what you're saying, like the the the upper levels of this is the good and the bad.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's kind of relative, I guess, in some degrees, is like, you know, if I see this whatever your political stance is, you could say, well, that's good if this person is in office, but for another person who even if for the sake of a Christian who has different views, they might see it as bad, but yet we all like love Jesus.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's an interesting, you know.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I guess if if I'm looking at power, I would try to start with myself and say, you know, well, as a leader, am I trying to be a moral leader using the good that I know of scripture, the the servanthood, like you said, and I think rest of you put it in the chat, like the servanthood aspect of it to try and utilize that form of power in a good way.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: But another thought I had as you were talking is I heard poverty defined one time as a lack of options.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um and when you were saying like the lack of power, for some reason that that just clicked in my head is like if I live in poverty, I have a lack of options.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when we went to Nicaragua the first time, um, that was the first time, this is years years ago, I really understood that definition um because I didn't have the option to, you know, go to uh a store and get food, like the closest store um, you know, is like 30 minutes away riding in this rickety old like cow truck, you know, and uh and there it there's just no there's no options.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you want um options, you have to go to like the the city, which is three hours away, and even there there's hardly any options.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, which has to do with power because it's a very corrupt government.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you saw a few years ago when they began to riot in the streets of Nicaragua because of of the um the government, um, and it was a misuse of of power, as we would say, you know, objectively, we could probably step back at some level and say that that form of government is oppressive to people, like the apartheid or whatever.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I wonder is you know, is there an adjective an objective way to step back and say, well, we can all agree that there are aspects of this form of power that are oppressive?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not there's always going to be someone who would disagree and say, no, you know, that's that's how, but I'm does that make sense?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, is is there is that even part of the conversation to say, um, you know, is is there objective parts of power that we could look at where it isn't this is good for me, bad for you, bad for me, good for you.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: But is that even part of it to say, you know, objectively, we can all agree that there are aspects of how power affects different forms of humanity, takes away their options, that that is bad, and begin to go from there.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, that's that feels like a lot, but I'm just trying, you know, I try to to listen to what everybody's saying, and and I agree.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of just where, you know, off the cuff kind of thoughts about that.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, somebody take that and make sense of it.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can I can I um share?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just was gonna say, Tim, as you kind of went into poverty and and ray, racial um tension and issues that you've seen uh globally.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um the reason I think this conversation is so important is because um, you know, I think maybe even one of the ways we got here to this discussion was realize me uh prompting that you know the theory that racism is ultimately the fear of one race or a people group, you know, fearing that another race or people group would have the same power that they have.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's my theory, that's my working definition of race.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think sexism, talking with my wife, it's it's the fear of you know, one gender having the same power as your gender.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's kind of rooted in sexism, um, socioeconomic, you know, uh differences are ultimately the the the fear or uh would would that you know that poor people would have the same power as rich people.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: So like I like I think you know, discrimination and and all that stuff, um I'm I please correct me, rebuke me if this is crazy talk, but I think it really comes down to the question is are they allowed to have the same power that I have?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think what's felt so tense in this, what I keep calling this cultural moment, is that we are we are ultimately asking, uh as a nation, regardless of how the outflow, the overflow is happening, is it okay for black people to have the same power as white people?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where some are trying to resolve that question through protesting, some are trying to resolve that question through through reform, some are trying to legislate, you know.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: As Ken was saying, so some of our efforts may even be futile.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Some of our efforts and attempts may even be non-productive.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Burning a target to the ground, looting, rioting.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: My thought is all of the applications of they're just people asking the same question.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are are we allowed to have the same power that you have?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: I like your definition in the context of power of racism.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I, you know, I just I think it's I think it's right on.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's why it's so threatening.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's why, you know, again, we can get into politics, which we need to, I guess, be somewhat careful.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: But if you contrast that to the other side, you know, of make America great again, some would say that's simply code for, you know, keeping the middle, upper white Americans in control of power.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you get you get right to the jugular of the conversation and of possibly the real you know, the real issues that are being dealt with.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And but you get people on the other side that are doing it as well.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think your definition of racism in the context of power is right on, in my opinion.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think uh interestingly, I'm just reading scripture this week.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um I happen to be in James.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: And um uh uh is it chapter three, maybe, where he talks about um selfishness and uh no no no jealousy and selfish ambition.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: And somehow I got playing with the words, and then and then I got interested in pride.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I've always had an issue with the word pride because of the way we throw it around.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_04: And here's a here's a here's a word that kept coming up with in in all three of those selfishness, uh, I mean jealousy, selfish ambition, and pride.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: And the word was relative.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: The word was relative, and and and here's what I mean.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_04: As I played with the definitions, it reminded me of a phrase I got from a book years ago.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_04: That what what we all pick a reference group, we all pick a group that we're gonna reference, kind of Jeff, going back to what you said about identity, we're we all consciously or subconsciously, and I would say some of and that's what makes some of this stuff so tricky is some of this stuff is deeply subconscious, but we all pick a reference group that we we measure ourselves by, compare ourselves to.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: And and then what happens is the the concept of relativity is like like here's how it works I don't I don't just want more, and that more can be anything, more money, more power, more influence, more fame, more fortune, more whatever.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: I don't just want more, I want more than you, and that's where the relativity comes in.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and and and kind of I'm trying to sneak it back around to the gospel.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_04: What's broken, like what idolatry to me is, idolatry is a force, is a is a false system of measurement and comparison.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: And um I just think as we get into this, you guys are gonna love this book, it's gonna make you think now.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: But as we get into this, um it's just gonna give us some cool ways to look at it, and we're gonna find a lot of what we've touched on today, uh and whatever, and just you know, some new language to use.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's gonna be fun, man.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be fun.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: Hey Chip, can I say something here before we wrap up?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you have to ask Tim, he's in charge.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_05: Tim, can I say something before we wrap up?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, you may.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_05: All right, thank you.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_05: Um, sort of a three-layer thing, and I'm I'm getting to something, so I'm laying a little bit of a foundation and then I'll get to where I'm going.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um Ben Franklin was Benjamin Franklin was asked the question when the government um was being established, and they and he's and he was asked this question by a lady.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_05: What kind of government are we gonna have?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_05: And he said this a republic if we can keep it.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_05: What is the difference between a republic and a democracy?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_05: Because we think we're a democracy, but we're not a democracy, we're actually a republic.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_05: A republic is a moral self-policing.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, it's when people hold each other accountable along the way.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: Why do so many people love golf?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_05: Because it's self-policing.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_05: If you chip a ball and it goes an inch, you need to call that stroke on yourself.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_05: And there's this thing there of this, and if you don't, I don't see how you can write down a score without it bothering you in the deepest part of your heart.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_05: And that's just me with that.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_05: But then, you know, when you look at what is going on around us, there's this thing of desolation.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_05: And desolation is defined as the prevailing love for things low and earthly.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_05: And our country, and where we are as a society, is that that's where we put all of our attention.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_05: We put it on the love for things that are low and earthly, and it drives us away from this amazing relationship with God.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_05: And so I believe whether I believe that all creation is called.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_05: All creation is called, and I believe in a two-order calling.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_05: The first order of our calling is an intimate relationship with God, an intimate relationship.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_05: Then our second order calling is the doing that comes out of that intimate relationship.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_05: We can talk about a lot of power, we can talk about a lot of these things, but the root of it is this relationship, whether we call ourselves Christians or not, this intimate relationship that we have with our Father God.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_05: And out of that relationship will actually dictate how we handle power.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_05: It'll dictate how we treat others.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_05: Because out of an intimate relationship with God, that is where we are held accountable to the Trinitarian fellowship.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_05: When the Holy Spirit begins to deal with our hearts about things, and that is the thing that again, it's it's one of the hardest things because nobody wants to go do that.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_05: No one wants to really spend the time to have an intimate relationship with God because we're too busy doing other stuff, you know.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm just talking about on a on a grand, you know, just an overarching thing.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_05: And so I know Chip does.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but he's the only thing.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I was trying to say.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_04: I said, I do.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: What are you talking about?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_05: But there's this, but there's a thing in this intimate relationship about not only just coming to him as our as our genie and as our and as our Santa Claus, but actually submitting every area of our life to him.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_05: And that's where the rubber meets the road, and that's where it's hard.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_05: But that's okay, that's a part of the journey.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_05: And all of us are a part of the journey.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_05: Everybody listening to this is a part of the it's a part of our journey that we're going on, but we have to give God that place.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_05: And so that's just where I'm at in all of this.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_05: That's where my heart is.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_05: That's what stirs me.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_05: That's what gets me excited, that's what convicts me.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_04: So all right, we're gonna have to wind up.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um, good stuff, Vince.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: Good stuff.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, something you said right there at the end made me think this thought.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, unsurrendered, unsubmitted powers.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know, kind of kind of was buried in something you said there.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, please get the book.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm talking to you guys, but also anybody listening.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and uh why don't we do this?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh everybody ought to at least be able to read the intro.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_04: So let's let's come with whatever else we want to get into, but let's come with the the introduction as a uh a backdrop to what we might mess around with.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_04: And here's the thing about the intro.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: The intro, he kind of um you know, he he kind of like skims concepts that he's gonna get into in the book, and uh there's some pretty cool concepts you'll run into just in the intro.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_04: So if you would grab it, it's called Playing God, Redeeming the Gift of Power by Andy Crouch.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and um, we're just gonna spend some time chewing on it, talking about it, banging around it, and uh should be fun, man.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: All right, good conversation, good start, big topic, but uh