Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 12 – Ron Otto | The Power of Unconditional Love & Truth
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Ron Otto, welcome back to the Better Preaching Podcast. Ron: Hi Frank. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, the last time we spoke, I promised our listeners you'd talk about your all-time favorite sermon series. And you shared a little bit about that actually, the last episode where you talked about your Jesus period series, which I love that. And if if you haven't heard that episode, BP2 listeners go back and pick that up. But I I'd love to hear about some things you have coming up, Ron. What what what do you have? What are you looking forward to? I know you plan well in advance. what what has you really stoked to preach in the coming months or next year? Ron: my gosh. This is gonna be a little humbling because until some people hear what I'm going to do with it, they're going this is really cheesy and it's gimmicky, and and men who love to be critical about that, that I'm gonna give you something easy to be critical about. I I'm just on the eve of a series starting this fall that I've titled the moon people. The moon people. Now, Dr. Frank Weller: V The Moon people. Ron: yes. Now, talking with some of the young guys in in my sermon writing group, these young guys are all impressed with these old illustrations that Frank, you and I have put to bed a long time ago. The starfish illustration, really, you know what matters to this one, and they've heard it and now. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. yeah. Matters to this one. Ron: They they can't they can't wait to use it. And I'm like, man, we put that we Dr. Frank Weller: That's amazing! Ron: put that to bed forever. Well then I mentioned during this conversation, I said, well, it's it's the moon one also. The the moon has no light of its own, it only reflects the light from the sun. And that got them going, and and one of them coined the phrase, so we're the moon people, and it was meant to be a joke. But it begs the question: the moon has no light of its own. It just reflects light from the sun, S-U-N. We have no light of our own, but Jesus said, let your light shine. Where'd that light come from? It came from the sun, S-O-N. And so when I'm when I'm with an unbeliever, what do I most want to reflect from Jesus to that person? it it and I came up with four. I I came up with four that I most want to reflect. and and for any father who has a who's dealing with a prodigal, you know, what what do you most want to reflect to that prodigal from Jesus? Well the unconditional love of course which we we we use that phrase frequently but nobody has ever really unpacked it. Or I should say nobody has unpacked that in a long time, what unconditional means. the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus, absolutely. But but also the truth. that that while we're reflecting Jesus to this child who's off track. I wanna be truthful too. You know, you're off track. Dr. Frank Weller: Yep, John one fourteen, full of grace, full of truth. Ron: There it is. And and and that tension, as you know, Frank, between grace and truth, wow. What I find most often is Jesus opens with grace, but he closes with truth. And and we live in a Dr. Frank Weller: And it depends on the situation, doesn't it? Ron: Yeah, well we live in a world where truth is disappearing. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, wom so the woman at the well he leads with truth. Ron: Yeah. Yeah. I Well, when she says, Dr. Frank Weller: Right? You've had five husbands, this guy you live with is not your husband. but the but the Ron: You're a man asking me for a drink, I think that's a little bit of grace there, you know. He's he's opening Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah. Ron: the door for that conversation. But yeah, you're right. It it goes both ways. Dr. Frank Weller: And it's hard to know. It's hard to know. Do you lead with grace? Do you lead with truth? and I Ron: It is. Dr. Frank Weller: and and yeah, I think you're right because because in in our fellowship of churches, we've been conditioned to lead with the truth. And so I think it's more important now that we say, Okay, what does it look like to lead with grace? Man, I'm gonna drive to Lincoln for this series, Ron. Ron: It should be fun. I got one next year too I'll share with you that maybe somebody Dr. Frank Weller: Hey, Ron: here listening. Dr. Frank Weller: before you do, there is no planetary body in our solar system that generates its own light. Except for Earth. Ron: Hm that will preach. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I don't know, something to something to think about, right? Because you know, w we're the only ones who have power plants and incandescent light bulbs, and but it's not just the moon that has to reflect light. Every planetary body in the solar system is a is a reflector, including Earth, but we're the only ones that generate our own light. So something to think about. One one page only. Ron: Frank, I'm gonna need you to write that up and have it on my desk by tomorrow. That was great. Dr. Frank Weller: yeah, what's the so tell me about that other Sermon series you have coming up? Ron: Alright. This is so raw. This is so raw. I'm not there yet, but next year, Easter's gonna be at the end of March, and so leading into Easter, I've been trying to look at this. I read one little phrase. I'll be brief here. The phrase in the book, he the author made a connection to the five miracles of Calvary. And I I had never Thought about the five miracles of Calvary, and so just challenging myself. He didn't go into it, he just dropped that phrase and I went in and sure enough I came up with five. well then I got my head turning. How many miracles are there to the to the empty tomb? Well, surprisingly, there's five. How many evidences are there to the to the resurrection? There's five given to us in the gospels. Then I backed all the way up to the Christmas story. How many miracles are there in the Christmas story? And I came up with five. Now I don't think five is important. It's just a curiosity, it's an oddity that there's five, but I titled the series Five Miracles, and for four Sundays leading up to Easter, I'm I'm gonna cover the five miracles of Christmas, the five miracles of Calvary, the third week's the five miracles of the empty tomb, and then the five miracles of the resurrection on Easter Sunday. And I just titled it five miracles. And and the the one thing I do have is that these are the evidences God gave. This is God's sovereignty. This is God's authority on display. That's why we have the miracles. And and this same God that worked way back then and and we know is gonna he's gonna work someday in the future in Revelation, but you know what? That same God is working today. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, love it. Ron: And and so I don't know how it's gonna unpack, but there it is. Maybe somebody out there can write it up and send it to me. Dr. Frank Weller: Maybe the f the look, the five miracles sounds like a doo wop group from Motown. So you know. Ron: I'm stealing that. I'm so I'm so stealing that. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. You gotta you gotta get put put together, you know, a little quintet there of doo wop singers underneath a street lamp. Yeah. I got you. Ron: Frank? That's gold. Dr. Frank Weller: What's your all time favorite preaching point? Ron: Y you know a little bit of my testimony. So this won't surprise you. My all-time favorite preaching point, it's more important how you finish than how you start. I I had a rough start. I I really didn't even think I could go into ministry, you know, and by a lot of grace, the grace of God and the grace of a lot of people, even Great Lakes had to show me grace. I had the opportunity to still go into ministry and It's just it just makes me wag my head. Well, as I'm reading through scripture, it happens over and over again. It's more important how you finish than how you start. And there's a lot of people in the Bible, especially in the life of Jesus, who had a very rough start. And Jesus uses them in ministry, he calls them into ministry. I mean, a demon-possessed man who's living in the tombs, he couldn't be surrounded by more darkness. And when his life is back on track, Jesus says, Now go tell everybody what the Lord has done for ya. That that is that is phenomenal. That that is a snapshot of my life right there. I find so Dr. Frank Weller: I love that. Ron: much hope in that. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I do too. We tell so students often will pop into my office when they're on their recruiting visit, whether they're student athletes or or whether they are here per to pursue academics. and I I tell every student who comes to my office the same thing. At Great Lakes, we we're concerned about where you're at, but we're more concerned about where you're going. And for us, your trajectory matters more than your location. Because I think exactly what you're talking about, Ron, the the it finishing well matters more than starting well. 'Cause it doesn't matter where we start, it's where we end up. Ron: Your your heart's in the right place there and and I hope people who work beside you there at at Great Lakes, I mean one day, one day students will point back to these colleges that laid these foundational truths in their life and give them a lot of credit. We're we're terrible at saying thank you when we're in your midst. But but yeah, with with without Great Lakes, gone into carpentry or or roofing or something. My dad taught me a roofing trade because he thought it was important to teach his sons a a a trade. And that served me well to get me through college, but I knew real early I didn't want to be a roofer. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Ron: So God bless all the roofers out there. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's like my friend Fred, who says that so he's he's Frederick Walter Lab the fourth. Now I'm gonna find out if Fred's listening to these podcasts. But the the the three Freds ahead of him were all electricians. And it just took him crawling around in a crawl space for a summer to decide he he wanted to go to college. And so he's not he's not an electrician. Something I ask a lot of of our guests on the podcast is which they prefer, preparing the sermon or preaching the sermon. I want to tweak that question a little bit with you. What do you like most about preparing? And then to follow that up, what do you like most about preaching the sermon? Ron: I enjoy both. My my sermon is open in front of me every day. I I can't explain that. I I don't rest well at night if I feel I'm behind. And so literally I open the next week's, the next Sunday sermon, I open on Sunday night. I just finished preaching that morning and a lot of a lot of men wouldn't do this. They don't think it's healthy. It it this is what works for me. So Sunday evening is a evening of re just relaxing here and my wife and I might be watching a movie, but she's gonna be on Facebook with our family and I'm gonna have my laptop and we sit on the couch together and I start shaping the next sermon. I start going through it. What does this say to me? I like the study aspect of learning something new. I like to study until I learn something new. Then that excites me to go into the pulpit. Now, the presentation, I love preaching in front of people. Frank, I asked my wife, I said, One day when I retire, are you still gonna make me go to church? Bonnie she looked at me, she goes, Yes, we're still gonna go to church. And I said, Well then I'd rather be the one up talking than listening. And I don't know. Dr. Frank Weller: I think it's an occupational hazard of preachers that when we sit in an audience, we are autum especially homilics professors, which I taught homiletics for over a decade. We're automatically evaluating. would I dunno if I'd done it that way, Ron: Automatic. Dr. Frank Weller: I'd approach it differently. I guess I would say something. Yeah. Ron: Yep, yep. So Dr. Frank Weller: And then the hardest thing ever is to walk out and shake that preacher's hand and say, Yeah, I appreciate that. Good work today. You did a really good job. Now for Ron: Wait a minute. You've done that to me. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, fortunately, my home church, which I I'm only at about once or twice a month because I'm on the road a Ron: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: lot, the they just do a great job there. And so I I don't I don't have to lie on Sundays, which is great because Sundays you should at least be the day you tell the truth. I'm able to look those guys in the eye and tell them they did a great job. But it's just an occupational hazard, isn't it? We're constantly evaluating. Ron: It is, it is, and but it's because it's it's something we're passionate about. You know, I I love preaching. I I think preaching is needed today more than ever. I I there's a lot of people out there I can listen to and I I can find something in their sermon I enjoy, something I like, something I've learned. I I struggle, struggle, struggle with a lot of judgment. listening to highly liberal preachers out there and some of the things they're saying. I I find it's I I can't get Second Timothy out of my mind. You know, they're gonna raise up people who are gonna say what their itching ears wanna hear. And it's just gonna be myths and you know they they won't hold to sound doctrine anymore. And I find that is is just breaking loose And and y your listeners know what I'm talking about. Several of the denominational churches who have gone so far to the left I'm judgy when I listen to those speakers. I am. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, and to lean into that a little bit, I think that it's giving rise to a resurgence of churches where there is good gospel centered truth being preached. And we're we're seeing that all across America, I think. People are returning to scripturally based churches. Ron: We have We have a solid foundation that that that in this shaky world that we live in, when they look at Christians, they see something different. They see the peace of Jesus on us. They they they see the love that they're desiring, but also Jesus said that it's the truth that's gonna set you free. And so pastors who are courageous enough to speak the truth, that's hard to find. And I think it's mostly in our brotherhood. We I think we do the best with it, but of course that's Dr. Frank Weller: We're biased. Ron: Yes, of course. Dr. Frank Weller: But there's there's truth, but it's gotta be truth wrapped in love, right? And when you when you when you have truth and there's no love, I I think that's the other end of the spectrum, and it's equally unhealthy. Ron: You know, Frank, here's one for anyone listening. when was the last time you told your congregation you just loved them? I do it frequently. It it has become it has become a hallmark in at the end of our services for me to tell my people I love them. And and I don't I'm not just saying it, I feel it deep in my heart. I love our people. And One Sunday I didn't say that, and a young woman who came out walked past me and she pointed it out. She said, You didn't tell us you loved us today, which made me giggle for a moment. And I said, Did you need to hear that? And this young woman looked at me and she said, Most Sundays you're the only one to tell me that for a whole week. Dr. Frank Weller: Wow. Wow. Ron: And I just I didn't know there were this these voids out there for so many people. And so I tell my church free and it has endeared them to me and me to them. And you you can get away with a lot of hard truths if if they know first you love Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's 1 Thessalonians 2.8, which is was kind of my it still is my life verse for preaching. We loved you so much. We were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you'd become so dear to us. And in that text, Paul talks about just loving the church, loving the church in Thessalonica the way a mother loves her infant. there has to be sharing of the gospel. And a sharing of our lives and that comes from a place of love. I I really appreciate what you're saying there. Ron: There's that tension again. You know, grace and truth is is one tension in our lives, but faith and science is another tension. peace, but also courage and fight. You know, there's there's these tensions that are purposely given to us in scripture that we all have to learn to navigate. And when to be a peacemaker and when to be unbending. You know, I can't I I love you so much, but I can't bend here. God's word will not allow me to bend here. I love you enough to tell you the truth. I can't applaud something God said don't do. I can't I can't applaud that. And man, that that tension that's where I grow is when I'm thrown into those moments where I have to speak both, grace and truth. Dr. Frank Weller: And I think those are powerful preaching moments when we explore that tension b because I I've often when I would preach about grace and truth, I would use the illustration of a rubber band. That the only time the rubber band is useful, the only time it has power is when it's in tension between two opposite poles. rubber band sitting on a desk by itself. Doesn't accomplish anything. You have to stretch it. It has to be intention for there to be power. And as preachers, when we really explore that tension, I think there's incredible power in it. And people lean into that because they recognize that we're living in a world that is trying to navigate tension. So it's it's a it's a useful place to be, even if it's uncomfortable. Ron: That's gold. Have that written up and on my desk by tomorrow morning. I'm totally stealing that. That's gold. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Ron: That's so good. That's so good. Dr. Frank Weller: No charge, man. I don't know where I heard it, but I got it from somewhere else. Ron: See, a rubber band just became an illustration. Are you kidding me? It's just a preacher can't stop but see them. Dr. Frank Weller: well, if you're gonna go there, then I'll give you the rest of the illustration. when you're holding the rubber band, if you let go of one side of it, it snaps you in the other hand. So if if if we're holding if we're holding the tension between grace and truth and we let go of truth, it hurts because it leads to hedonism. And if we're holding on to truth and we let go of grace, it hurts because Now it becomes legalism. So we've got to hold to we gotta hold both ends of of that tension in order for there to be strength and in order to avoid there being pain. And so yeah, get your rubber band ready. I'll in fact I'll mail you one. I've got I got a pack of big rubber bands from Amazon. I'll send you one. You could Ron: This has been Better Preaching by Great Lakes Christian College, and I want to thank Frank for coming on my show today. That was awesome. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey man, you know what? We we do what we can and we can what we do, Ron. Ron: I'm stealing that. I'll be using that this next year. Just trust me. That's gonna be used. Dr. Frank Weller: it's you you're welcome to it. Ron, what's what's one piece of advice you'd offer to your younger self? Ron: Well That's a gosh. I wasn't prepared for that one. That's a good question. My younger self. I I think I'd take more risk early. I I was a little intimidated at the beginning, a little just so careful. You know, s men have fallen in ministry and I I didn't wanna I didn't wanna be one of those who who fell or got run out of ministry. I was a little extra cautious and so some of my sermons were a little too fluffy. With that that tension you just described, you know If it's if it's all grace, if it's all just love, love, love, love, you know, you just sound mushy and soft. if it's all truth, you sound angry. I I I waited a long time to play the role of the prophet and just to speak forcefully. I think I would have done that a little bit earlier and and taken that risk. There's a there's a risk there though. I mean, there's a problem if the young guy who's only been there six months all of a sudden plays the role of the prophet, you you haven't won their hearts yet to play that role. And then there's a whole bunch of older guys who you've earned the right to speak hard truths to your congregation, and we've gone soft. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's so good, Ron. I I forget which might have been Bob Russell who said w w when we're young, we we tend to want to be more prophetic when we need to be more pastoral. And when we're older, we tend to want to be more pastoral and when we need to be more prophetic. And again, it's those two elements held in tension. Ron: Yeah. Yeah, I think I would have taken a few more risks when I was first put into the pulpit. Dr. Frank Weller: So you work with a lot of younger guys, what's the advice you're giving them? Ron: Set your heart to finish strong. I'm I'm in the last leg of my race now. 65. This is my last lap. when, you know, where where's the finish line? I don't know. I just I know I can see it on the horizon. And at this point I just wanna finish strong. I want those guys to finish strong. Frank, there's there's been too many talented Talented people who have gone out in ministry and fell flat on their face. they they blew up families, they blew up marriages, they blew up churches, and and I I don't want to be that man. I I feel I feel just so blessed even to be in ministry. I don't feel like I deserve this, but now that I've had this privilege given to me. I just want to finish strong. And I've shared that with my leaders also. that phrase has become very important to them, helping me to finish strong and holding my feet to the fire to do that. And so I work extra hard. Boy, Satan anything God loves, Satan hates. You know this, Frank. He He loves, God loves the church, Satan hates the church. God loves his word, Satan hates his word. God loves marriage, Satan hates marriage. And so, and he's gonna come double down on a preacher's life. And so I'm I'm trying to just finish as strong as I can at this point. I would give that advice to young preachers. There's a finish line one day, and you don't want to stumble across that. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Finish strong. Well, we finished this episode of the Better Preaching podcast strong. that went fast. Ron: I've loved this, Frank. I love this back and forth. This is such a great format. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. I'm glad. And we gotta have you back on, Ron. we'll we'll find a time where we get you back on and maybe go deeper in sermon illustrations. You can talk about what's appropriate, what isn't appropriate, what's risky, what ca I'd love to go deeper there, but there's lots we can continue to talk about because you love preaching. I love preaching. Our listeners love preaching. I want to thank Ron. I also want to thank our sponsors, Great Lakes Christian College. And I want to thank you for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching Podcast. Remember, you can check out past episodes at our website, www.betterpreaching.org. And you can listen to the Better Preaching Podcast wherever podcasts are hosted. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. We've got a great lineup in the next few weeks on the podcast. So join us again next week. For another insightful conversation, because better preaching makes a bigger impact.