Latest / Flyer Magazine / Everything you need to know about joining a group. The FLYER Show 4 December 2025

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Everything you need to know about joining a group. The FLYER Show 4 December 2025 · Flyer Magazine

0:09
SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to this week's Flyer Show from the Water Studio.
0:12
SPEAKER_04: My name's Ian Seeger, I'm EdHex, and I'm Dave Corderwood.
0:15
SPEAKER_04: Tonight is mainly about groups, because groups are a pretty good thing, although little caveats in there.
0:21
SPEAKER_04: However, importantly, I should say that we are joined by Mark Gregg, the smartest person of the Aviator Ball, who bid and won this experience.
0:29
SPEAKER_04: Quite possibly the top experience of his life so far, but we're not going to ask him that just in case he decides it isn't.
0:35
SPEAKER_04: So welcome, Mark.
0:36
SPEAKER_04: We'll be seeing Mark a little bit later when he comes and joins in the show.
0:39
SPEAKER_06: Fantastic.
0:40
SPEAKER_04: Right.
0:41
SPEAKER_04: I've got to thank Sky Demon.
0:43
SPEAKER_04: I knew I nearly went into the news there, but it's got to thank Sky Sky Demon.
0:47
SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much for sponsoring this show.
0:49
SPEAKER_04: It wouldn't be possible without you.
0:50
SPEAKER_04: I know we always say that, but if you don't use it, and frankly everybody does, go jump on and give it a go.
0:55
SPEAKER_04: So here's today's, not today's, this week's even top tip.
1:03
SPEAKER_03: Hi, I'm Tim from Sky Demon.
1:05
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to this week's top tip.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: When you're on the ground at an airfield, the airfield brief at the bottom right corner of the screen offers you useful information, and this will appear without you having to interact with Sky Demon.
1:18
SPEAKER_03: The most appropriate frequencies are displayed at the top, and the elevation of the airfield is displayed at the bottom right.
1:26
SPEAKER_03: When you've taxied close to a runway, you'll see the name of the runway in the centre and its physical length at the bottom left.
1:35
SPEAKER_03: This is its overall length and not a particular declared distance.
1:39
SPEAKER_03: If we have surface wind information from a metar or forecast, we also display the crosswind and head or tailwind components with arrows.
1:49
SPEAKER_03: If you're at a big and unfamiliar airfield, you can tap on the airfield brief to see tools for finding holds and taxiways that somebody might refer to on the radio.
1:59
SPEAKER_03: Select one and Sky Demon will highlight it on the map.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: For our full user manual, go to skydemon.aro and choose help and support.
2:13
SPEAKER_05: There you go.
2:14
SPEAKER_05: Very good.
2:15
SPEAKER_05: Makes me wonder with Sky Demon.
2:17
SPEAKER_05: I mean, what's the what's the genesis for for top tips?
2:20
SPEAKER_05: Is it people going, you should add this?
2:23
SPEAKER_04: Or I think loads of people send in ideas, go add this, add this, add this.
2:27
SPEAKER_04: And Tim is pretty good at going, no.
2:30
SPEAKER_04: And and actually starts off with like they've got negative points almost.
2:34
SPEAKER_04: Right.
2:34
SPEAKER_04: And then they build up if they because otherwise it'd be too easy just to you.
2:38
SPEAKER_04: We've all used that software that's got tons and tons.
2:40
SPEAKER_04: Oh, there's too much stuff in here.
2:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
2:42
SPEAKER_05: So actually fixing, fixing, building things off, fixing problems is less is more.
2:47
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
2:47
SPEAKER_04: And it needs to happen.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Addressing the pain points.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:51
unknown: Yes.
2:51
SPEAKER_05: There you go.
2:52
SPEAKER_05: Less well, talking, well, less is more.
2:54
SPEAKER_05: Let's hope there's more of really flyable weather coming our way.
2:58
SPEAKER_05: So shall we see what Simon has in store for us?
3:01
SPEAKER_05: What shirt he's got.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Evening all.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: I hope this evening finds you well and looking forward to the weekend.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, this weekend's weather is all a bit of a mess, so you're going to have to be very clever on how you plan your flying.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: That's because we've got quite an active uh series of weather systems that are going to be moving through the country.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: There are windows in there, um, but you've just got to be careful with them.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: So keep your eye on the timing.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: That's going to be key to this weekend.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So this is the forecast for eight o'clock on Friday morning.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Keep your eye up here in the top of the screen because that reveals the timing of things.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: You can see that actually Friday morning, not too bad.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one or two showers around Western Coast, but generally for most of us, it is going to be a decent start.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: Some rain for northeastern Scotland, and already rain piling in to western parts of Ireland.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: And during the course of Friday, that spreads its way eastwards, so that by midday it's across the whole of Northern Ireland, getting into western Wales and southwest England.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Notice most other areas though, increasing cloud, but generally dry.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, one or two showers could affect the southern coast of England, but overall it's dry.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say typical bases here are going to be about 3,000 feet, and the tops are probably at around 8 to 12,000 feet, but obviously lowering a lot as this system moves in from the west, and we go into non-verfar conditions as we get through the afternoon.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: So that by dark, that rain is into southwest Scotland, northwest England, the Midlands, and much of central southern England.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: But notice eastern areas of the country still stay dry and flyable.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Overnight that rain moves its way eastwards, low pressure moving into um or just off the coast of Northern Ireland, and then Saturday.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: What a mess! These are heavy, thundery showers rattling in on the returning polar maritime air mass.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: We'll know what that is if you've been to weather school.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: And further heavy showers, too, across southern parts of Scotland.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Probably only northwest Scotland, maybe parts of north east England fare best.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: But we are looking at some QNIMs, most of those across western and southern areas.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Local flying may be okay, but I think going further afield, you're really going to be pushing it through the channel, northern France.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: We've got heavy showers as well.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Pretty windy across England and Wales, gusts of 30 to 35 knots, perhaps 40 to 45 knots across western coast, slightly better across northern Scotland.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: But that just looks a mess, doesn't it?
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Now, as we get in towards Sunday, so the showers are going to be fading away.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So Sunday morning actually starts better.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: That's nine o'clock on Sunday morning.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: Fairly cloudy.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Some showers, some rain, western parts of Scotland, northwest England.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: But overall, it's looking okay.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a bit misty at first, but that mist or lift, it then stays cloudy as we get into the afternoon for many of us, before more rain gets into Ireland, Wales, and southern parts of England during the course of the afternoon.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: But just to go back again, if you can get out there at the moment, and the timing on this is changing, but if you can get out there Sunday morning, then for most of us that looks better before conditions deteriorate into the afternoon.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Although, even in the afternoon, Scotland, Northern England, Eastern England look like they're fair okay, as does North Wales.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Basis here again, 3,000 feet tops about 12,000 feet, but as that rain comes in, we're into non-VFR lower than a thousand foot basis at 15 to 18,000 foot tops.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: The winds will pick up again in the southwest later on Sunday, but not as much as they will on Saturday.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: So you see what I mean about getting that timing absolutely nailed.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: And that leads me really nicely into telling you about aviation weather school part one because if you do want to nail those timings, this is the course for you.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: I've just announced my first live online course of 2026.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be held on the Tuesday evenings of the 27th of January and the 3rd of February between 6:30pm and 9 pm.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: Book your place now.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: What a perfect Christmas present for you.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, you can book your place by going to weatherscall.co.uk or scanning the QR code there.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: I will get you flying more.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: I'll get you flying more safely.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: I'll show you how you can make rapid forecasts yourself, make the most use of forecasts from um the official sources, and get you spotting weather windows five days in advance and nailing these timings down so that you can be more confident in uh the weather that you are forecasting yourself.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Um it'll be super to see you there.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, have a great, have a safe flying weekend, whatever you're doing.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for watching.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: Keep the sun shining, and I'll see you next week.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Bye for now, folks.
7:32
SPEAKER_04: Right.
7:32
SPEAKER_04: So we've got Sky Demon, we've got the weather, must be time for some news.
7:35
SPEAKER_04: Dave, I see you're first up.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Yep, Popham Airfield.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: The battle is on, unfortunately.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Last Friday, Basing Stoke Council uh issued its draft local plan, which included a new garden village being built on the Popham on Popham Airfield.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: It will have 4,250 houses plus a school and other infrastructure.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: It would obliterate the airfield.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: There's a consultation running until the 23rd of January 2026, where everyone who cares about Popham Airfield, and that that's the entire universe, right?
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Definitely us.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, is urged to respond.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Now it's very easy to say respond, but what do you say and how do you do it?
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, fortunately, the campaign group called Popham Matters, which is separate from Poppham Airfield, um, has stepped up with a quick and easy guide.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, one of the points they make is that even if you responded to an earlier consultation, you have to do it again.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Because this second draft plan comes on top of the government increasing its house building targets, and then all the councils have had to revise, revise their figures.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: So, Brian Lloyd, who is spokesperson for uh Poffam Matters, um, you remember he was on the show on the 23rd of October.
8:41
SPEAKER_04: Henry, stick one of those cards up so people can go watch it.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: So Brian said, please do it again, as this is a new separate consultation, and the total number of objections and responses carries weight.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Rather than repeat what you said last time, change it a bit.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's some arguments on the website that he's put forward.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, remember them, remember that a factual argument is much better much harder for them to ignore than it is an emotional argument.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: So go for the facts.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's all sorts of links on Pop and Matters, and we'll put the link to Pop and Matters website in the in the description.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a whole lot of information there to help you make that response, but do it, just do it.
9:24
SPEAKER_05: And it is can't stress enough.
9:26
SPEAKER_05: If you've already made, if you've already participated in sending um um an email in the past, because this is a new round, you must send a new email.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and do it through the process that is outlined on Popham Matters because that way they can't ignore it.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Just random emails arriving they can ignore.
9:47
SPEAKER_05: Very good.
9:48
SPEAKER_05: Well, let's hope.
9:49
SPEAKER_05: Well, we can live in hope that something good comes out of that.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: Yes, absolutely.
9:53
SPEAKER_05: Like we say, it's really easy to lose an airfield and nigh or not possible to replace.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Pop them is so special.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:01
SPEAKER_05: It's is is f it uh just an incredible piece of the GA network in the UK.
10:05
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
10:06
SPEAKER_05: So um, yeah, can't let it go.
10:08
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
10:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um so more.
10:10
SPEAKER_05: Uh talking of airfields, uh, are you in the market for an airfield?
10:14
SPEAKER_05: I I don't.
10:15
SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, it doesn't everyone, yeah.
10:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh well, there's an operational airfield, uh, complete with runways, hangar, uh, house, cafe, shop.
10:23
SPEAKER_05: And it's been listed for sale in what the agents describe as a rare and unusual opportunity for aviators and rural entrepreneurs.
10:31
SPEAKER_05: Tell me more, he says.
10:33
SPEAKER_06: How much?
10:33
SPEAKER_05: Um Yeah.
10:34
SPEAKER_05: Well, this is Darley Moore Airfield, uh uh known as also known as Long Chimneys Farm, and in terms of how much um it's on the market for 1.5 to 2 million.
10:43
SPEAKER_05: Seems like an unusual price setting there.
10:46
SPEAKER_05: But anyway, that's that's what you've got to work with.
10:48
SPEAKER_05: Uh it's just south of it's south of Ashbourne in Derbyshire, and it comes with a mix of freehold and leasehold land uh that supports uh flying app has supported flying activity for decades.
11:00
SPEAKER_05: Um the airfield's also home to Airways AirSports, uh, which is a microlight maintenance company.
11:06
SPEAKER_05: Um, it's uh set alongside the A515 at Darley Moor, um, and the property blends a small farm with a busy recreational airfield.
11:15
SPEAKER_05: Uh, there's a bungalow on site, um, should you want to live, uh, and there's a long stretch of old wartime concrete.
11:21
SPEAKER_05: Uh, plus, there's grass runway that's capable of all-year-round light aircraft operation.
11:27
SPEAKER_05: Um, overall, 35 acres of leasehold land held on a long-standing tenancy.
11:33
SPEAKER_05: Um, uh, the buildings and the access road are freehold.
11:37
SPEAKER_05: Um, and the current operators run a thriving flying club, and that's supported by on-site catering, who doesn't love a cafe, um, aircraft storage, and visitor accommodation.
11:48
SPEAKER_05: So um, there's a hangar, built commercial spec, ample space for multiple aircraft.
11:53
SPEAKER_05: Um and uh yeah, it's uh yeah, it's uh apart from the one and a half to two million.
11:59
SPEAKER_04: The entry point, yeah.
12:02
SPEAKER_05: Yes, yeah.
12:03
SPEAKER_05: But uh we'll put a link in the uh in the video description.
12:06
SPEAKER_05: So should you be interested, but um it's it's a rare opportunity.
12:10
SPEAKER_05: But uh like we say, sometimes it's living the dream, isn't it?
12:13
SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, to have your own airfield and set up.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: So I went looking for it on Google Earth just out of interest.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: And I saw that the original airfield, the old RAF base, is just to the north of this property.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's very clearly identified as you know, the three runways, but they're now being used as a motor racing circuit.
12:30
SPEAKER_05: I that's pretty that's that's almost the tale of most old Waterline airfield, isn't it?
12:35
SPEAKER_05: Motor racing circuit now.
12:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it doesn't come with the newest purchase, by the way.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: Talking of motor racing circuits, yes, good news.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh, there's a new air display extravaganza with the Hampshire Air Festival taking place this year.
12:48
SPEAKER_04: Next year, not this year at all, next year.
12:50
SPEAKER_04: Next year.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: Next year.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: In fact, it's the 12th to the 13th of September 2026.
12:55
SPEAKER_04: Um there'll be and it takes place at Thruxton.
12:57
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
12:58
SPEAKER_04: A motor racing circuit and an airfield, the archetypal motor racing circuit in airfield.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: So two days of lots of lots of aerial fun.
13:05
SPEAKER_04: They've got Pyro stuff on the Saturday night.
13:08
SPEAKER_04: They're expecting Spitfire because it's the 90th anniversary, so probably at least one of those.
13:12
SPEAKER_04: And they're a bit common these days anyway, aren't they?
13:15
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that that looks like a good thing.
13:17
SPEAKER_04: And it's great to see another big event happening.
13:20
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's it's Ein Truxton, uh, got new owners, uh, was it last year?
13:24
SPEAKER_05: A couple of years ago, yeah.
13:26
SPEAKER_05: Time moves on, doesn't it?
13:27
SPEAKER_05: But um, yeah, new owner clearly developing great opportunities.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: And and because it's a motor racing circuit, it's got all those facilities for for people to go.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: Car parking.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Car parking.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, cafes and stuff like that.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, it's it's the basis for a great event.
13:43
SPEAKER_05: And this I think this event grew out of the Victory Air Show, which was at Leon Solent.
13:48
SPEAKER_05: So Deadless.
13:49
SPEAKER_05: It might have been.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Solent Airport.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: It's called now.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Solent Airport.
13:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:54
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:54
SPEAKER_05: So uh but yeah, so move to move to um Truxton and um one for your calendar next year.
14:00
SPEAKER_05: We did wonder if it was the same time as um as the Goodwood Festival of Speed, but actually no, no, the Goodwood Revival.
14:05
SPEAKER_05: The revival, yeah.
14:06
SPEAKER_05: But it's that's the week later, isn't it?
14:08
SPEAKER_05: That's right, yeah.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't want you wouldn't want to clash with that event in the south of England, because uh that's gonna take everything.
14:16
SPEAKER_04: Cool, right, on to today's subject, groups, group flying.
14:21
SPEAKER_04: I think groups are good because uh a little while ago we actually spoke about ownership, didn't we?
14:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think one of us, possibly me, kind of said if you learn to fly and you just rent the PA 28172 for your flying school, that kind of gets old a bit quickly.
14:34
SPEAKER_04: You it's really tough to go further with that.
14:36
SPEAKER_04: What you really need to do is get into a group or or sole ownership, but a group is a great way of getting into it, learning things.
14:42
SPEAKER_04: Plus, it reduces your capital outlay by quite a lot of money.
14:45
SPEAKER_04: So you can find a whole load of really interesting groups for not a huge amount of capital expenditure.
14:50
SPEAKER_04: It gives you a built-in social circle in in aviation mentors, people who can take your flying to the next stage.
14:56
SPEAKER_04: There's just all sorts of really good reasons to do it.
14:59
SPEAKER_04: Um so I think groups is a good thing to talk about.
15:02
SPEAKER_04: Have we all have we all been in groups?
15:04
SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah.
15:05
SPEAKER_05: I I I've I've been in I've I've had I've been in groups, but they've only been small groups, they've been me and one other pe one other person.
15:12
SPEAKER_05: And a bit like you might remember when we were talking about buying an aeroplane a few weeks ago.
15:18
SPEAKER_05: Um my experiences of buying aeroplanes were definitely not routes that people should have taken because I I have been a bit gung-ho and a bit, you know, not it's like this is not a not a manifesto that you should follow sometimes.
15:32
SPEAKER_05: Uh, because I've got into it with friends and not had a strategy, not had an exit strategy, um, not had a plan for I it's it's one it's with people you know, you go, shall we do that?
15:46
SPEAKER_05: And you go, yes, and we've gone off and and bought an aeroplane and everything else has fallen into place.
15:52
SPEAKER_05: But I think as you will learn, if you're gonna go into group ownership, make sure it's got some structure.
15:59
SPEAKER_05: So but I've in my experience, owning with a someone else has been great.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: I've I've had an R V6, an R V eight, um clip wing cub, and I've currently got one of my R V3s is a is a is 50-50 share, and that works really well.
16:14
SPEAKER_04: So I think it's quite interesting because you've obviously you you bought the aeroplanes in a bit of a gung-ho way and you kind of got into the groups as a bit of a gung-ho way.
16:21
SPEAKER_04: But for you, that's really worked well, but you've been very selective.
16:24
SPEAKER_04: These people have been your friends before.
16:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
16:26
SPEAKER_04: And I think it it's really important, as we'll come to later.
16:29
SPEAKER_04: You know, if you're gonna if you're gonna get involved with more than two people and have a bit of a threesome plus, then you really need some kind of etiquette and some some structure in there.
16:37
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
16:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
16:38
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
16:39
SPEAKER_04: Dave, you had a group?
16:40
SPEAKER_01: No, I've never been in a group.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: I've owned an aircraft, but mostly I've rented aircraft.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And it kind of works because you know, you know, you can cost it out exactly, you know how much you're gonna be spending.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: But it is a problem sometimes when you you want to go flying at a weekend.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: That's when the flying school, which is probably going to be the people renting the aircraft, that's when they're at their busiest.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: So trying to tie you know an hour or two together when it's when the aircraft is available and the weather's playing ball is very hard.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Group community.
17:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I I I've had I've been in two groups, both of them advised for different reasons.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: Nothing, nothing, nothing wrong with the airplanes or the groups.
17:15
SPEAKER_04: First one was actually the PA28 I learned to fly in, Golf Broth Golf Provocito Charlie Charlie.
17:19
SPEAKER_04: Stood out there at Gloucester, I believe.
17:21
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
17:21
SPEAKER_04: Um I I bought a share in that.
17:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, but it was still run by the group, and so effectively my share gave me a discount, but access to it was quite difficult because as you say, the the group stuff was still the school stuff was still going on and kind of really took precedence.
17:36
SPEAKER_04: So that was a difficult one.
17:38
SPEAKER_04: But I sold that share um fairly quickly.
17:40
SPEAKER_04: So I didn't lose any money on it, so that was that was a good thing.
17:43
SPEAKER_04: And then I had a share in an Oster, a J1N.
17:45
SPEAKER_04: Sorry to hear about that.
17:47
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I don't know what some people don't like Osters because they just they just haven't understood.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: They're great classic aircraft, they're in, you know, they fly quite nicely.
17:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they are lovely.
17:56
SPEAKER_04: It was a lovely aircraft.
17:57
SPEAKER_04: And this one, I at the time what I really needed was an airplane that I could use for transport to get from A to B quite easily.
18:03
SPEAKER_04: Um and the Oster was something that you kind of had to you had to kind of love and encourage it.
18:08
SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't a jump in and go.
18:10
SPEAKER_05: No, it is one of those types, I think, a bit like uh an English electric lightning where uh it's like 30 maintenance hours for every flight hour.
18:18
SPEAKER_04: It did need quite a lot of maintenance.
18:19
SPEAKER_04: Um Miles, bless his cotton socks, saw him yesterday, he's looking good.
18:22
SPEAKER_04: Good.
18:23
SPEAKER_04: Um Miles, I think it wouldn't be too unfair to say he enjoys the maintenance side of things.
18:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, so Miles can fly the oston, you know, doing the tap it or something, I don't know, whatever it was.
18:35
SPEAKER_04: So in the end I had to steal it.
18:36
SPEAKER_04: Oh, you're one of those people.
18:38
SPEAKER_04: Take it somewhere else.
18:39
SPEAKER_04: So I actually had access to it.
18:40
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, no, it was it was a great group.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: And you know, if it was available today, yeah, I'd probably join that group again.
18:46
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
18:46
SPEAKER_04: So I I got different I flew the airplane once.
18:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
18:49
SPEAKER_04: With Miles.
18:50
SPEAKER_04: And you broke it.
18:52
SPEAKER_04: He's that person.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: The pink window fell out.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: There's a pane of perspective, fell out, went through the through the fin.
18:59
SPEAKER_04: It would have been fine if it hadn't gone through the rudder, it would have been great.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, that was that was like, okay, offline again for another god knows how long.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: It did take I I remember that happening because we're on uh a short final for Popham and uh we were into flying into a headwind.
19:16
SPEAKER_06: Traveling that short is on final.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes, into a headwind.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't a very strong head, it was only about 15 knots, but it took, I reckon it took an hour after crossing the threshold.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Austin's.
19:28
SPEAKER_04: They're not that they're not very fast.
19:29
SPEAKER_04: They're not very fast.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: And the other thing that was a bit weird was because I had drum brakes, so you'd sit there and try and do your power checks.
19:36
SPEAKER_04: The brakes just wouldn't hold.
19:37
SPEAKER_04: It was just like moving forwards all the time.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: It was another.
19:41
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, great airplane.
19:42
SPEAKER_04: And you had like scars on your thing.
19:44
SPEAKER_04: Oh, what from being injured by the aeroplane?
19:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
19:47
SPEAKER_04: Anyway, great kind of enough of obscure non usual chairs.
19:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I I just want to make one mention early on, which is the difference you quite often see um non-equity groups.
19:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I I think non-equity groups have got some really good positive points about them, but it is important to notice to to remember that a non-equity group is just a rental by any other name.
20:09
SPEAKER_04: Right.
20:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, so you do have to make sure that you know there are some airworthiness considerations that have to be taken into account.
20:15
SPEAKER_04: And and also, you know, if you even though you might call it a group in insurance terms, it needs to be put on higher and reward.
20:23
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
20:23
SPEAKER_04: So that makes a big difference as well.
20:26
SPEAKER_04: So it's a great way to do things for all sorts of reasons, but it's not really the kind of group we're talking about here.
20:32
SPEAKER_04: It is aircraft rental, uh, but if you're gonna get into it, nothing wrong with it.
20:36
SPEAKER_04: Um but go into it with your eyes open, make sure that all of the cons make sure it's not treated like a a group of privately owned.
20:43
SPEAKER_04: Be clear about that.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: Be clear about that.
20:45
SPEAKER_04: It's it's a different way of working out the membership of it.
20:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
20:50
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: But talking about structures, I went looking for some advice and uh I went to the BMAA, which has a very good uh document available, and we'll put the link to that in the description.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: I also had a quick look at the AOPA site in the US.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Of course, in the US they call it fractional ownership rather than groups.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, I want to show your citation.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, the BMAA document is very good.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things they say is straight away is the group should have a name and a structure.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Um the name may include the aircraft registration.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Some people do that, others just call themselves the uh the Percival Perishes or something like that.
21:30
SPEAKER_04: Um so but it also does it have to be like an unimaginative thing like the registration or something corny.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: You can do or can you you can call it anything you like, it just needs to have a name.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: But you also need a very important point apart from that is also to clarify the aircraft's home base.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Where's it going to be located?
21:49
SPEAKER_01: There have been uh occasions, apparently, um, where somebody who did not live near the home the home base that everybody considered was the home and took it back to who.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Closer airfield and refuse to bring it back.
22:02
SPEAKER_04: I didn't refuse to bring it back when I stole the Oscar.
22:04
SPEAKER_04: I brought it back.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't I wasn't talking about you, I mean that's just the case, but um yeah, it's that sort of thing.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: You've got to have a home base uh to and also the CA kind of wants to know where it's based as well.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So uh when you register it with the CA, um, you have to register either all the owners or you can appoint a trustee to uh to look after it all.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Um in that sort of uh agreement, uh, there's things like you've got to be clear about buying and selling.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: So you could have clear procedures for purchasing and selling the aircraft.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh so and you've also got to define the structure in terms of shares.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like every member should have equal ownership and uh liability based on their share.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: So if you've paid for a quarter, then you've got a quarter of the ownership and um and the liability.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, quarter of liability.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh this is important because when you come to sell the aircraft, this needs to be spelled out the process here, because this has the the potential to create havoc and distress, I think, in the uh selling process.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you you've you know it's quite quite a bit of money involved here.
23:09
SPEAKER_04: And that and that that applies equally if the whole group's deciding to sell the whole thing, or probably even more so if one of the shareholders is deciding to sell.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, well, it's it's only courtesy and polite, if you like, to for somebody who wants to sell their share.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing against them selling it, they they should be able to sell it.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whatever the reason they may need the money, may have given up flying, but they should offer it to the group first, because the people in the group may know somebody who's applied and wanted wanted to join the group.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and they also the the rest of the group will want to know a bit about whoever takes it over, comes in.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've mentioned about the dining club thing.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: What was that?
23:44
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, no, there was a thread on the flyer forum when we asked for people's experience, and um one of one of the groups said, you know, A, one of the things was okay, we always have a must-attend AGM every year so we can sort stuff out, which sounds like a great idea.
23:57
SPEAKER_04: And then the other one says they do quite a lot of social stuff with their group.
24:00
SPEAKER_04: In fact, they could call their group really, they could consider it to be a dining club that just happens to own an aircraft.
24:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:06
SPEAKER_04: So we and that's one of the good things you get with group ownership, isn't it?
24:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, but you know, you can see how that could go wrong if someone says, uh it's time for me to move on, I've got to need to sell my share, and they sell it to I I don't know, someone who who isn't doesn't fit with the group vibe.
24:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, there is, I mean it this point about if you have to have a forced uh sh uh sell selling of the of a share, you know, you should it's a difficult situation.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: It may be because somebody can't afford it anymore, can't meet their financial obligations.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh could be any number of reasons.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, Paul Kiddell came up with a good bit of advice, and that is to have a bit in your agreement whereby uh have a vote amongst uh shareholders uh on a on a point.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, if somebody's behaved a bit somebody proving to be a pain in the neck, and you you can have a vote, and if necessary, the majority rule and says, Yeah, sorry, mate, you're out.
25:03
SPEAKER_05: Um and I think that's that that's the thing with with groups for anything, really, is that uh it's very easy to go into stuff and everything's rosy.
25:12
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you need you need the plan for when things are difficult because actually you want easy to follow instructions and a process when things are actually causing you the most angst.
25:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_05: So in a group, you do need a do need a plan should it go wrong.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And and and there's simple things like the actual running of the group, you need to have strong financial controls.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: It's worthwhile appointing a treasurer.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: And I remember reading a forum thread actually quite a long time ago, this forum thread, but it's by a chap called Rob P, who uh is who is a regular on on the forums, and he was saying if you're a treasurer, add a bit more margin to the to the uh month to the uh hourly flying costs because everything costs more to be expected.
25:56
SPEAKER_05: Well we all like to go, oh no, it's not that expensive.
25:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
25:59
SPEAKER_05: But actually you need to be realistic.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: You do need to be realistic.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Things like a dedicated bank account, uh uh recommended for managing group funds.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, all of the fixed costs, things like hangarage and uh insurance need to be worked out quite clear fairly.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: The the running costs are things like fuel maintenance, they uh they also need to be worked out clearly and identified.
26:22
SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, and depending on how different people fly it, different people have different fuel burns, and that yeah, that's quite you know, we've joked in the past, particularly if we've been hiring an aeroplane, we haven't done it, we've been really good.
26:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but you know, what are the power settings?
26:34
SPEAKER_04: There's no full rental power listed in here.
26:36
SPEAKER_04: So it's full forward all the time.
26:39
SPEAKER_04: But if you've got someone in the group doing that and everyone else is going along running lean of peak, if that's their thing or whatever, then that that's quite different in meters.
26:47
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
26:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
26:48
SPEAKER_04: A question for you, Ed, given that you've you've sold a share in your RV, because it it's always seemed to me to be a little bit different.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: If someone's got an airplane that they've owned for say 10 years, yeah, and then they decide to group it out, yeah.
27:00
SPEAKER_04: Is it it must be hard for them not to still consider themselves as the owner of that airplane and the other equal shareholders who've paid money as kind of equality?
27:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I you would tell that's definitely one of those situations you wouldn't you can't get into group ownership or sell or selling a share in your airplane if you aren't open to the fact you go, this person is going to have an equal standing, and I want to I want to work with them and and everything about operating this airplane is a is a 50-50 thing.
27:32
SPEAKER_05: It's not like I will tell you how to do these things.
27:34
SPEAKER_05: That's you're doing a group for the wrong reasons if uh if that's the way.
27:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, I I there was a there was a situation that I experienced, not a group that I was in, uh quite a few years ago now, where uh a chap had done that and he was very specific about exactly how to arrange the sheets that covered the airplane at night.
27:52
SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't just the fact that it had to be covered, it had to be covered in a very specific way.
27:56
SPEAKER_05: And it's odd how that became the focus of like angst.
28:00
SPEAKER_05: Groups can be.
28:01
SPEAKER_05: Groups can be brilliant, but the uh most unusual things can become the the spanners in the whole dynamism of the whole operation.
28:11
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I think relationships are hugely important in in aviation.
28:15
SPEAKER_04: Well, in life, but so in in aviation, I think you know you need a great relationship with your maintenance straight company and a great relationship with your group of people, otherwise it just becomes unpleasant.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things that the BMA recommend in their their draft agreement is a a group appoint uh a maintenance focal point.
28:36
SPEAKER_05: I think that's a great idea.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so one person who looks after maintenance, although it's it's the responsibility of every shareholder, but you need to have someone who really deals with the maintenance company.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
28:46
SPEAKER_05: And groups groups can be I know I had it in my mind that um groups could only be 20 people, but apparently that's changed and you can have any number.
28:55
SPEAKER_05: I mean, clearly a group with loads of people in it, the availability is going to be low.
28:59
SPEAKER_05: But is there a sweet spot for groups?
29:01
SPEAKER_05: Is it I and I reckon it might be like three, four, or five people?
29:04
SPEAKER_04: I think it depends on the airplane.
29:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think you know, some airplanes are kind of a little bit esoteric and you don't want to fly them all the time necessarily.
29:11
SPEAKER_04: That'd be like a kind of interesting thing.
29:14
SPEAKER_04: Others, if it's if you know, if if you've got four people you love long distance touring and you've got a long distance tourer, yeah, you know, everyone's going, I want my two weeks here, I want my two weeks there.
29:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, then you know it's probably okay with four, but it wouldn't work with twenty.
29:25
SPEAKER_04: Or twenty, no, or ten.
29:27
SPEAKER_04: No.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: But that's the kind of thing that should be covered in the agreement.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how long you can take it away for.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you know, obviously if if you buy a touring airplane, you want to go touring.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: So what happens in a case like because you know you've you've must have come across this, where uh you pick up, you go fly the airplane, they've only got a quarter of a tank, so you decide to fill it up, and then you fly it, fly it somewhere, come back, and you're leaving it with say three-quarters of the tank.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: What happens to that half a tank you've paid for, which can be quite a sum of money?
29:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think I mean that you hand you hand the receipts to the treasurer, and the treasurer deals with it basically basically is the only way you can do it.
30:03
SPEAKER_04: I think there is a there's a there's a uh a more interesting airworthiness point there, which is you can and you can leave an aeroplane with a lot of fuel in it, which has been fine when you've landed, but the next booking, if the next booking's got three or four people in it, yeah, that may have put it overweight.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, and there's a whole load of things like that.
30:21
SPEAKER_04: You need to be you need to communicate with people.
30:24
SPEAKER_04: You know, like I'm taking it away tomorrow into a short strip, please don't leave it full of something.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: In terms of booking, I was gonna say that's what people use.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: That's that your booking system would would help with this because you know if you can look at it and see that the yeah, the day before someone's taking it away, you can just give them a call, drop them an email saying, Don't uh you know, don't fill it up, I'm gonna be going to be full of them departure.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: So most people, I mean, from what I read, is there are various booking systems out there.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: There's Schlot.
30:54
SPEAKER_05: Right.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: You may not be pronounced like that, but Schlot.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And then there's also what's the other one?
30:59
SPEAKER_05: Gaboko.
31:00
SPEAKER_05: Gaboko.
31:00
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
31:01
SPEAKER_05: Uh and you mentioned that the cheap you could just be a cheap, uh cheap and cheerful and just use like Google spreadsheet or something, or Google Calendar or there are so many easy tools these days that are free and available.
31:13
SPEAKER_04: So you know, Google Calendar, every every group should have a WhatsApp group for the group.
31:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:18
SPEAKER_04: No one wants to phone everyone up these days.
31:20
SPEAKER_04: No, no one does that anymore.
31:21
SPEAKER_04: No one's even got a fixed landline, have they?
31:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Um remember those, Henry?
31:26
SPEAKER_04: No, probably not.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Um question I sort of come up here uh on looking at this BMA thing.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: What do you do about personal things?
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Supposedly you've got a set of headsets and you want to leave them in the airplane.
31:40
SPEAKER_05: I think you need to be really clear.
31:42
SPEAKER_05: The airplane as it's left is an entity and it's if if it's it it it is that thing.
31:50
SPEAKER_05: And if you leave stuff in there, then you should expect people to not necessarily go, oh, that's so-and-so's.
31:55
SPEAKER_05: I respect that.
31:56
SPEAKER_04: It's like someone I mean, I think I think you know, depending on what the airplane's used for, it's got a certain amount of equipment.
32:01
SPEAKER_04: In the in the cupboard, there might well be four life jackets that belong to the airplane, and anyone who wants to go overseas can chuck the life jackets on.
32:08
SPEAKER_04: Headsets, I would say I mean, always I'd recommend people to take their own headsets.
32:12
SPEAKER_04: By all means, have a couple of spare headsets sitting in a cupboard that are group headsets if you really want to do that.
32:17
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but don't get bent out of shape if you leave a ram mount in it and someone else uses it and you go, Oh, you you did something to it or something like that.
32:24
SPEAKER_04: You have to you have to have a degree of perspective.
32:26
SPEAKER_04: Because there will be some people who who like you know put the control locks in a certain way with the seat belts and stuff.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: You just have to understand that Yeah, there there are.
32:35
SPEAKER_04: I know those things wind you up by a hundred percent of it.
32:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think that's that's very much you you need to be you need to know you're in a in a situation with other people.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: It would wind me up if I came back to the airplane and seat belts all over the place.
32:48
SPEAKER_05: Well, and it's in a mess.
32:50
SPEAKER_05: And it's well, talking of being in a mess, and even things like washing the aeroplane I was gonna say, I was gonna mention washing that needs to be in the in the agreement of how how the airplane's left.
33:02
SPEAKER_05: Um and it might even be that uh getting together and washing the airplane is a group of things.
33:06
SPEAKER_04: It should be, absolutely it should be.
33:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you wouldn't want to go back to one of Ed's airplanes and for him to find out that you've washed it, only to find out you've washed it with water and not with distilled water, for example.
33:16
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that would be a problem.
33:19
SPEAKER_04: It would, I could see.
33:20
SPEAKER_04: Um It's like, oh what?
33:21
SPEAKER_04: You did it in circular rather than.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: Oh my word.
33:24
SPEAKER_04: I mean that's a great point because we can joke about it now, but you get back to your airplane that's lovely and that everyone loves, and all of a sudden the the perspex is all scratched.
33:33
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's because someone there's lots of potential on an airplane well-meaning sometimes to go wrong.
33:40
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, you know what it's like when you've got a passenger who gets into your airplane, it grabs the door and treats it like a VW golf, you know, oh no.
33:47
SPEAKER_04: So there's a lot of stuff like that.
33:49
SPEAKER_04: Um you need you need you just need to be clear, have group.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: I think group group airplane washing and pampering or hangar washing and pampering is a great once every month or so is a good idea.
33:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Um it's well worth having a look at the BMAA document.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: It's very detailed.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: You may decide not of all if it's for you, but it's it's a great place to start.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: They're not a bad bunch of BMAA.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: They've got some good stuff on there, I have to say.
34:11
SPEAKER_05: Um so interesting.
34:13
SPEAKER_05: So I had a look around um just the last last month or two uh on online on Facebook on various websites for sale, um, shares that you might find.
34:25
SPEAKER_05: Um so I found there was a fifth share in a Cicata TB20, nice touring airplane,£18,750.
34:33
SPEAKER_05: Looked really nice, well equipped, base at Sherban and Elmett.
34:37
SPEAKER_05: Um uh engine, reasonable life, prop just overhauled, uh really good fit,£250 a month, um, and£175 per hour wet.
34:47
SPEAKER_05: Um that looked really good.
34:48
SPEAKER_05: A tenth share in a Grob 109,£3,995.
34:53
SPEAKER_05: That's buggy.
34:55
SPEAKER_05: Fantastic.
34:55
SPEAKER_05: Um uh that's£90 per month and uh hourly charged wet,£55 an hour based at North Wheeled.
35:05
SPEAKER_04: One thing that I I do I've looked at that one and I think it is free if you turn the engine off and saw it.
35:09
SPEAKER_05: Yes, yeah, gliding hours are gonna be free.
35:12
SPEAKER_05: That's fantastic.
35:13
SPEAKER_05: Um 11th share in a tiger moth, that's at White Waltham, uh quite a well-known aeroplane.
35:18
SPEAKER_05: Uh well up together in maintenance, um£85 an hour per month.
35:23
SPEAKER_05: Uh sorry,£85 per month,£180 uh£80 per hour per flying hour.
35:30
SPEAKER_05: Um Robin Aeglon, which is a um quite an unusual Torah, but a 12th share in that, three and a half grand.
35:36
SPEAKER_05: Very capable Torah, uh£112 a month, um, and um£100 an hour wet plus landing fees.
35:43
SPEAKER_05: It's based at Erwesson, so that's£6.
35:46
SPEAKER_05: Um found a nice Rollerson Condor at uh Compton Abbas, a lovely group by the looks of it.
35:51
SPEAKER_05: One fifth share,£4,500.
35:55
SPEAKER_05: Looked really up together.
35:56
SPEAKER_05: Uh recent top-end overhaul, healthy bank bank account, they say, and engine fund, really important.
36:02
SPEAKER_05: Um, and that is£80 a month,£70 an hour wet.
36:06
SPEAKER_04: So there's some great stuff there, isn't there?
36:09
SPEAKER_05: There is.
36:10
SPEAKER_05: Um two different uh two different shares I found in an old and a new Cessna 182, uh just to give you some perspective.
36:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh 1964 182G, one fifth share 20k, um and or 1999 182S, uh one six one sixth share, 30,000 pounds.
36:29
SPEAKER_05: So you can get into the same airplane and choose your age point, and it gives you and you you you know just it just varies your spend.
36:37
SPEAKER_04: I mean the real challenge is that the market is not so big, so that if you want a 182, for example, there's not going to be 20 to choose from.
36:45
SPEAKER_04: And location.
36:46
SPEAKER_04: Particularly if it's location, yeah, location is really important.
36:49
SPEAKER_04: Try not to make that too many compromises at the beginning.
36:51
SPEAKER_04: Try and find something that's the other spot.
36:53
SPEAKER_05: It's really important to fix what you want and go out and pick and try not to be drawn away from your your kind of optimum choice.
37:06
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
37:06
SPEAKER_05: Um clearly, everything is quite often about making compromises.
37:11
SPEAKER_05: There's very rarely ever a perfect solution, is there?
37:14
SPEAKER_04: No, there isn't.
37:16
SPEAKER_04: There isn't.
37:16
SPEAKER_04: Unfortunately.
37:17
SPEAKER_05: But I think we all agree that actually a share in an aeroplane might be one of the best things that you can do for your flying.
37:24
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you the you look through that thing you've got there, the the prices.
37:28
SPEAKER_04: You can buy a share in an airplane for the price of a skanky old second-hand car.
37:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
37:40
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't expecting that.
37:42
SPEAKER_04: But I mean, seriously, it's not very the capital outlay is not a huge amount.
37:46
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you can well that's it.
37:48
SPEAKER_05: You can get you can have aircraft ownership of something nice for not very much.
37:52
SPEAKER_04: For not very much money.
37:53
SPEAKER_04: And if you get the right group, you get mentorship, you get a social thing, you get to stretch your your flight, you get to share flying with other people if you want to.
38:01
SPEAKER_04: It's if you get it right, it's fantastic.
38:03
SPEAKER_04: If you get it wrong, it's miserable.
38:05
SPEAKER_04: So don't get it wrong.
38:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:06
SPEAKER_05: Like everything in life.
38:07
SPEAKER_05: But good good shares can really elevate your flying.
38:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
38:11
SPEAKER_05: Yep, absolutely.
38:11
SPEAKER_04: Right.
38:12
SPEAKER_04: We're going to take a break from groups for a little while.
38:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:14
SPEAKER_04: I don't think we've don't think we've missed anything.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: No.
38:17
SPEAKER_04: It's not looking at me slightly strangely.
38:21
SPEAKER_04: Let's have a look at club news.
38:23
SPEAKER_04: Who's got who knows what the free landing fees are for December?
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Dave does.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: They are fantastic, actually.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: There's Carnarvon, uh, Tibbonham, Manchester Barton, Yatesbury, and 50% off at Standown.
38:35
SPEAKER_04: Biddy bargain.
38:36
SPEAKER_04: So far, I think that's 600 quids worth of landing fees this year if you're a club member and you're a club member for just six quid a week.
38:42
SPEAKER_04: Flyer.co.uk forward slash membership.
38:44
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds a month even.
38:45
SPEAKER_04: Six quid a month.
38:46
SPEAKER_04: Not six pounds a week, six pounds a month.
38:47
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds a month.
38:48
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds a week would be nice.
38:49
SPEAKER_04: You could pay that.
38:50
SPEAKER_04: We should have this optional thing.
38:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:52
SPEAKER_04: It's six pounds a month, optional donation.
38:54
SPEAKER_04: A bit like, would you like to have a 30% tip after I've just served you this donut or something in the States?
38:59
SPEAKER_05: But anyway, flyer.co.uk forward slash membership if you want to join.
39:03
SPEAKER_05: And why wouldn't you?
39:04
SPEAKER_05: Because it's one of the greatest bargains in general aviation, we think.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: And there's the other thing you get is access to a whole bunch of webinars.
39:11
SPEAKER_04: And Dave has made a we kind of made it a little bit hard to see the webinars, to be honest.
39:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:15
SPEAKER_04: So we've made it easy.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, we just created a new page on the website that is that lists the past two years worth of webinars.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: And you can just click there and then to play it.
39:26
SPEAKER_04: And I think I'm right in saying that not next week, but the week after we've got Nigel Webb talking about ISINC on the 16th, but we'll confirm that next week.
39:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
39:36
SPEAKER_04: Good.
39:37
SPEAKER_04: Very good.
39:37
SPEAKER_05: Well, it must be time for Fantasy Hangar.
39:42
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
39:52
SPEAKER_05: So this week on Fantasy Hangar, uh, because we've been talking about group ownership, we set ourselves the challenge of uh going into the classifieds and finding the most exciting classifieds, or interesting even, uh, that we could bring to the table.
40:07
SPEAKER_05: And we've got um our special guest, Mark Grigg.
40:11
SPEAKER_05: Mark, welcome on to the show.
40:13
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
40:13
SPEAKER_05: Um you bid successfully on the uh at the air ability uh silent auction at the at the uh the ball, and uh you've won your spot here and you've you've seen the magic happening on how the show takes place, haven't you?
40:26
SPEAKER_05: I will not reveal.
40:27
SPEAKER_05: I will not reveal.
40:29
SPEAKER_05: It's like there is no magic.
40:32
SPEAKER_05: But uh congratulations, uh, thanks for bidding, and it's great to have you on here.
40:36
SPEAKER_05: I know we're gonna have you last on today's fancy hanger choice.
40:39
SPEAKER_05: So um so it could be that you snatch victory from all of us.
40:43
SPEAKER_05: So um so who's gonna go first?
40:45
SPEAKER_05: Ian, what have you gone for?
40:47
SPEAKER_04: I went for something that I think is the epitome of aircraft share ownership.
40:51
SPEAKER_04: So not very expensive, funky, interesting airplane, one that you wouldn't couldn't eat a whole one, but you quite like a little bite of it.
40:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I found a um eighth share of a Fournier RF4, single seat motorglider.
41:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but fate really, really known for its great handling, um, really nice aircraft to fly.
41:10
SPEAKER_04: You see occasionally see one or two of them in the display circuit as well.
41:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
41:13
SPEAKER_04: Does really well.
41:14
SPEAKER_04: So uh an eighth chair is only gonna cost you£3,550.
41:17
SPEAKER_04: Well, that's a bargain.
41:18
SPEAKER_04: Which is, you know, in aviation terms, a bitty bargain, isn't it?
41:20
SPEAKER_04: I know you know um£35 an hour wet and£60 a month.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: That is not gonna break the bank.
41:28
SPEAKER_04: It's not gonna break the bank.
41:29
SPEAKER_04: And you've got this aircraft that otherwise, you know, a bit of a pain in the backside to own.
41:32
SPEAKER_04: If you own the whole thing, it's got bloody long wings, you've got to put it in a hanger.
41:36
SPEAKER_04: But this is kind of like perfect.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: Just go and fly from time to time when it's lovely.
41:40
SPEAKER_05: And a single seat.
41:41
SPEAKER_05: Little single seat, too.
41:42
SPEAKER_05: I find people say, you know, it does it's a bit of a solitary experience.
41:46
SPEAKER_05: So you probably don't want you don't want one of those all the time, do you?
41:49
SPEAKER_05: So uh having a share in it, perfect.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if that was if you go to your family, by the way, I've sold the Cirrus and I bought a single seat RF4.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that better be a share.
42:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, better be a share.
42:01
SPEAKER_04: So that's that's my entry into this.
42:04
SPEAKER_04: Excellent, Dave.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, I've gone for what can only be called an iconic aircraft.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: It's a chipmunk, um, an aircraft is the very first aircraft I ever flew in, light aircraft.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh this one is uh it's up for 10k for a one-six share.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's 60 pounds an hour dry to operate, uh,£70 a calendar month for fixed costs.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: It's based at Comton Abbas, which is you know, is a very, very lovely airfield.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, one I used to know very well.
42:34
SPEAKER_05: That's a nice place to be.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: It's a very nice place to be.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: But the chipmunk, but yeah, it actually has a place in my heart, chipmunk.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: It's just such a lovely airplane, and it comes with a bit of a military uh connotation as well.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah.
42:47
SPEAKER_05: Very nice, but I do think that chipmunk ownership that comes with you, I think you need to go into that with your eyes really open about the maintenance, don't you?
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, I've had several alphas, so I've already done that sort of business.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: I know all about maintenance.
43:02
SPEAKER_04: I think like the RF4, I think is probably I would say like a teenager.
43:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:08
SPEAKER_04: A mature teenager.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: The chipmunk is probably like looking after one of your elderly parents.
43:13
SPEAKER_05: It is, and they need x-rays regularly and uh hard to find parts.
43:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they keep leaking.
43:18
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_05: So if you're a chip owner, a chipmunk owner, if you're a chip owner, if you're a chipmunk owner, please don't be offended at Ian.
43:25
SPEAKER_04: No, they're great airplanes, I love them.
43:27
SPEAKER_05: Um but owning it in a group is the best way to own chipmunk.
43:30
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's a great, again, a great that's a great way to do that.
43:33
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
43:34
SPEAKER_05: Ed.
43:35
SPEAKER_05: Uh well I yeah, I went looking, saw a whole bunch of interesting stuff, but then I saw something so utterly fantastical that I thought it's got to be that.
43:44
SPEAKER_05: Uh and it's a quarter share in something with uh when the quarter share just is takes an enormous cost and makes it very chunky.
43:53
SPEAKER_05: And that's because it's a Mark I Hawker Hurricane.
43:56
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's right.
43:57
SPEAKER_05: It's a Battle of Britain veteran, no land.
44:00
SPEAKER_05: Flew from RAF Kenley in the summer of 1940.
44:04
SPEAKER_05: The share description says this will get the interested party into own into historic fighter ownership at a fraction of the price of owning a full warbird.
44:14
SPEAKER_05: And if you've got the experience in the training and they're talking 30 to 40 hours in a Harvard, then you can also fly it.
44:21
SPEAKER_05: I'm that's I'm hurricane.
44:24
SPEAKER_05: There is no talk of how much the actual share is, but we know that hurricane prices they're around about 1.5 to 2 million pounds.
44:32
SPEAKER_05: So a quarter of that is going to be like buying a brand new Cirrus SR20, I guess.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: I think a Mark I hurricane with World War I with World War II Battle of Britain provenance.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: That's gonna be a bit more than two million.
44:48
SPEAKER_04: I think you could be pushing three on that.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
44:51
SPEAKER_05: 750k.
44:52
SPEAKER_05: Do you own a Mark I hurricane with World War II history?
44:55
SPEAKER_05: Tell us how much let us know how much a quarter of it would cost.
44:58
SPEAKER_05: But yeah, I I I don't think you very rarely see opportunities like this.
45:03
SPEAKER_05: Uh and that does sound fantastic.
45:05
SPEAKER_05: And it is, it's based at Duxford, which is a Mecca for Warbird operation.
45:10
SPEAKER_05: And just but I think you need to, and if you can afford that share, you probably don't worry too much about the maintenance cost, but just bear in mind that a Merlin is a a TBO of 500 hours, and the the the do-nothing cost on a Merlin just starts at£100,000 apparently before you even get into replacing parts.
45:31
SPEAKER_05: So um but I'm and I'm guessing that uh that insurance and hangarage and all those things are probably also quite punchy.
45:38
SPEAKER_05: But apparently, according to Stu Goldspink, who's flown 11 hurricanes, and he's a bit of a warbird legend pilot, um, he says flying a hurricane, it's a it's a friendly warbird.
45:50
SPEAKER_05: If you get to know it, it's really rewarding.
45:53
SPEAKER_05: Um, and um and he's like, Yeah, this is a great opportunity for anybody.
45:57
SPEAKER_05: So yeah, with half a million pounds, maybe.
46:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
46:00
SPEAKER_04: And half a million pounds, and four.
46:02
SPEAKER_04: That's probably another 20, 30 grand for the harvest.
46:05
SPEAKER_04: I know, but it's fantasy hanger, isn't it?
46:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
46:08
SPEAKER_05: So yeah, so that's that.
46:10
SPEAKER_05: Mark, what did you find?
46:12
SPEAKER_02: God, I've been really uh busy looking.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: I've I found uh 20th share in a a vampire based in Coventry.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: Now vampire is got sort of sort of lineage.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: I used to fly the Jet Provost, so that's kind of like I guess it's sort of similar.
46:25
SPEAKER_02: Um I think the idea is that you can see your airplane flying air shows and say, I own a bit of that.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: But if you want to, you can learn to fly it as well.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: Um the cost of the share, no matter which way you do it, is£4,950.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: No, that's gonna be an error.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: That's not that much, is it?
46:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh but the monthly subscription is£300, which um is you know getting there.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: But the the the obviously the clincher or not clincher is the hourly rate, dry, of course, is to be determined.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh you'd probably have to have a special fund for uh runway preparers as well, isn't it?
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably.
47:02
SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, because that's famous for famous for blowing a section of the runway away, isn't it?
47:07
SPEAKER_05: It might have even been that one.
47:09
SPEAKER_05: But I it's a uh it's a de Havilland goblin engine, so I I'm guessing fuel burn on that's probably not low.
47:15
SPEAKER_05: They're gonna gobble up fuel, aren't they?
47:17
SPEAKER_05: It really is gonna gobble up fuel.
47:19
SPEAKER_05: And um and main to maintaining a first-generation RAF jet, probably you're not gonna phone light air spares when you need need spares.
47:27
SPEAKER_04: That's probably covered in your 300 equipment monthly as well.
47:29
SPEAKER_04: You'd like to think.
47:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it would definitely be interesting.
47:32
SPEAKER_04: Because I mean, if you owned it because you'd like seeing it fly, and they say about your share in the uh about the share in the vampire, would you uh by the way, we got a cash call, we need another 10k because we've got to change around it or something.
47:45
SPEAKER_05: And I'm guessing uh uh old aeroplane like that, it's a bit like old cars.
47:48
SPEAKER_05: And it when you see in the advert, it's like uh extensive spares package.
47:53
SPEAKER_05: Things like that don't go don't they haven't uh gone on in time without having accumulated lots of bits.
47:59
SPEAKER_05: So I recognize I think that's brilliant.
48:01
SPEAKER_04: That's a great selection of aircraft there, though.
48:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I just I know I d I mine for sure, uh Mark's definitely.
48:07
SPEAKER_05: They they're definitely aeroplanes that you wouldn't choose to you definitely want to have a share because that's a great way to own that.
48:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I and in fact, all of them really.
48:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think even the RF4 and the chipmunk, you know, they're they're great aircraft to share with other people.
48:22
SPEAKER_04: You just can't fly them enough.
48:23
SPEAKER_04: You work out the percentage of time an airplane actually flies, even with sole ownership.
48:27
SPEAKER_04: Most people, you know, we're all the same on party.
48:29
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I'm gonna do hundred hours a year at least.
48:31
SPEAKER_04: I know when ever does it.
48:32
SPEAKER_04: You never really do hundred and hours, hundred hours, you do 50 or whatever it is if you're lucky.
48:36
SPEAKER_04: If you're lucky, and then you work out the cost of that, and etc.
48:38
SPEAKER_04: It's like maybe I'll stop working this out for a little bit.
48:41
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
48:42
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
48:43
SPEAKER_05: So um uh so please tell us in the comments uh which one of our shares would you go for?
48:48
SPEAKER_05: Or maybe you found something that is equally exciting.
48:52
SPEAKER_05: Uh stick it in the comments, let us take a look.
48:57
SPEAKER_04: Dave, got any events?
48:58
SPEAKER_01: Yep, it's uh quiet timing yet, but they are happening.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Saturday, 6th of December.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: That's this Saturday.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Christmas flying at Comtonabas, and on Sunday, uh Santa flying at Fenland.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
49:10
SPEAKER_05: Well, is Santa flying in?
49:12
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
49:12
SPEAKER_05: You know he needs PPR and a day glow jacket.
49:15
SPEAKER_05: I'm showing us, yes.
49:16
SPEAKER_05: And a pretty thing.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: Cool, right.
49:19
SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much, everyone.
49:20
SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much for watching.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: Thank you very much, Martin Greg, for being the smartest person in the Aviators Board.
49:25
SPEAKER_04: Great charity, well worth sporting, fantastic event as well.
49:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, fly safe, enjoy yourselves.
49:30
SPEAKER_04: Don't forget to join.
49:31
SPEAKER_04: Six pounds per month.
49:33
SPEAKER_04: Flyer.co.uk forward slash membership.
49:36
SPEAKER_04: Like, comment, subscribe, all that kind of stuff.
49:38
SPEAKER_05: Take care, everybody.
49:40
SPEAKER_05: Bye.
49:42
SPEAKER_04: Do you know what we forgot?
49:43
SPEAKER_04: Hey boys.
49:44
SPEAKER_04: Actually.
49:46
SPEAKER_05: Actually, it's the next one.
49:48
SPEAKER_05: Join, quick.
49:49
SPEAKER_05: It's the news that uh our guest next week is going to be Bill Perrin, uh, author of From Spitfire to Vulcan.
49:55
SPEAKER_05: He'll be coming in telling us how to fly the Vulcan bomber.
49:58
SPEAKER_05: So join us for that exciting guest next week.
50:02
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50:04
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50:08
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50:16
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50:21
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