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Dan Clark - Education from Senior Leadership · Let Them Fly - Heather Harries Ed Hub

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Let Them Fly with me, Heather Harris.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: If ever you've wondered whether your child is on the right path, this podcast is for you.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Each week we meet people who remind us that there isn't just one route to success.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm joined by Dan Clark, who swaps some of UK's most prestigious schools in the exciting challenge of opening a brand new British school in Dubai.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about what really makes a great education, how schools are changing, and what parents should be looking for today.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, welcome to Let Them Fly.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a real pleasure to be here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for the invitation.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's lovely that you're now in Dubai.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's been quite a long process of you moving across and starting here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me, what attracted you to Dubai?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the question.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh look, I've been coming backwards and forwards from Dubai.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is about 2009-2010.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at Repton School in Derbyshire and was involved a little bit in an exchange programme with the school that opened in Nadoshiba back then.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I came backwards and forwards over seven or eight years.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I've always had a thought I might come back.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I worked at Marborough College after Repton.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then really out of nowhere, had a call from a headhunter about an opportunity here in Dubai at Queen Elizabeth School and was really excited by it and just decided to go for it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was back in January 2025.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And here I am now.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: The Queen Elizabeth campus is gorgeous.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's up in Sports City.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a nice small school, which is, I think, unusual in Dubai.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're likely to start with between 300 and 360, we think.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the best schools are constructed on the human scale, you know, where there's a sense in which the senior staff know just about everyone if they can.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's certainly been my experience of schooling over the past 20 years.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we're very keen to keep the school on a human scale, both in terms of its overall size, but also in terms of things like class sizes, you know, so that children feel well known and have a strong sense of belonging in the school.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's so important.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, while I love big schools and I think they've got lots of opportunity.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I personally, I'm a small I'm a small schoolgirl.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love when staff know children and you just get that beautiful relationship somehow.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and actually when I reflect on my experience of boarding over 18 to 20 years in boarding, you I again I think that parents are really buying attention from experts in boarding.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's obviously all the other really exciting factors about it, but at root it's about the fact your child's gonna be very well known by a team of highly committed, passionate experts.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, we're trying to recreate something of that here in Dubai because I think that is what distinguishes the very best schools from even the best schools.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's people at the end of the day, it's people, isn't it?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, you're from Scotland.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we don't need any introduction to that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Whereabouts in Scotland?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Edinburgh's one for me.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then I studied at St Andrews uh uh in the late 1990s, which dates me a great deal.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and from there, uh I did a couple of jobs before getting into teaching, but I started my first teaching job at a large comprehensive school in the city of Derby, uh, and then kind of made the three after three years made the leap uh to boarding education at Repton, which was just around the corner.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: What attracted you to go into education?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because where did where did education start for?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's actually again another good question.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I did some voluntary work teaching English in Poland uh with a friend of mine.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I did that for a while, and that's actually what got me going and got me thinking that this might be an appropriate pathway for me.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I had a great time there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was residential, uh teaching English to children who were already very good at English, so kind of teaching idiomatic English uh to children who had the grammar set already.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what really started it with me.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to do my teacher training at the University of Warwick uh back in 2004, uh, and that's really where the journey starts.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a view that I wanted to work in the maintained sector to begin with, um, but then actually I realized that I was trying to give more than they were willing to take, partly because my own schooling in Edinburgh, which was at George Harriet School, was very Victorian, if I can say, and they just expected you to contribute in a whole range of ways.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the first school I worked at, it was a very good school, but actually there wasn't an expectation of contribution.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, boarding schools will take anything you're willing to give them.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week during term time.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually much more fitted what I felt a good education ought to look like.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I it's it's very strange, isn't it?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because schools, some schools, as a pupil, you want to give everything to, and others they don't seem to actually want that integration.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's a it I education is it fascinating, it absolutely fascinates me why a school becomes that model.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's so much about people.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned people before, and certainly I feel that, you know, that in staffing my school now, we're looking for those who are willing to contribute more and who see education as much more than just turning up and teaching five lessons in a day, but actually whether you can support the broader aims of education through character development and actually being a role model.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Again, when I think about my experience in boarding, you know, staff were expected to be role models, not just in the classroom, but on the sports field, in the chess club, in the choir, you know, in everything that they were doing, because they're under scrutiny 24 hours a day in some cases for those who are residential.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so finding staff who understand that and who are willing to contribute to that degree has been priority one for me in terms of setting up the school.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: When I was in school, I went to a very, very boring comprehensive school, but my mother was um educated in St.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Leonard's in St.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Andrews.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, lovely, yeah.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, and she was chair of the governors at this comprehensive school I was at.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she was on a mission to make sure this comprehensive school was exactly like St.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Leonard's, which was somewhat challenging, but to some extent, with the her and the headmaster, they they achieved it to quite a lot of the extent.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was incredible, you know.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, from my perspective, one of the things that attracted me to this job was that I had a chance to visit Queen Elizabeth School in Barnet as part of the interview process.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to Neil Enro, who's the headmaster there, I was like, your local fee-paying competitors must really loaths are bad words, but you know, they must find being alongside you very tricky because the offering there is uh really like any independent school I've worked in.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a very rich offering across all of the domains.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I think Queen's one of those schools that when people say to you it's a state school, for you you sort of go, is it?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Are you sure?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they describe themselves as a state school like no other.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which again, I think is a really good way of describing what they're doing though, you know, and they have facilities and staff who are really totally incredible.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really is what attracted me.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what makes a good school is that kind of combination of having uh the resources, whether human or otherwise, to give children horizon opening opportunities in the school.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we're aiming at in my school.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I think school has to be somewhere you don't just attend, it makes your dream so big that you you almost believe you can't achieve it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of it's it's you know, it opens your eyes so wide.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there are a couple of really good examples of that from the school in Baron.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for example, two of the most important people in the world in AI, for example, Demis Hesebis and Mustafa Suleiman, both were at QE, I think at the same time, you know, and uh I've kind of underplayed that a bit, but it's actually a remarkable thing that two of the most consequential people in the world today happen to share classrooms, you know, and and share, share an experience.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know whether they want to talk about that very much necessarily, but actually, again, in terms of children finding someone or something they can aim at that came from the same context as them, I think can add something really, really powerful to the educational experience.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think a s a good school enables.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I once somebody said to me recently, they said it's always yours to lose.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have a good idea, it's your idea to lose to somebody else if you don't do it.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think obviously Queen Elizabeth gave them that platform to bounce from.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and actually, I if I might give you an example, we've designed our innovation and technology facilities with this kind of thing in mind.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we've had this idea that a child should be able to go from concept to product on the same corridor.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so there's a uh kind of CADCAM studio, a more traditional metal work and woodwork space, but also an e uh uh 3D printing space.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the idea should be that a child can have an idea and can, over the course of a day or a week with guidance, bring a product or an idea to fruition.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in a world in which you and I were on a panel talking about AI, but you know, I think if you think about AI and the future which AI is going to generate, the acquisition of knowledge over time, which has been part of the traditional school model, is going to become less and less salient, I think.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, children who have the skills uh to get their ideas to fruition, I think are going to be a significant advantage in an economy where knowledge is less important.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I think so.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think AI give gives everyone an equal playing field to be amazing if they've got those ideas to bring forward.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm just gonna sort of come back to the transition between UK and Dubai.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now you've been bouncing back and forth for a number of years.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: What differences do you notice in education here than you notice in the UK?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really good, good question.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one is that there's the the diversity and that's available to families is incredible.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that parents have got what I know, 300 and some schools in the city to choose from.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's an exact number, but certainly many more.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it strikes me that uh families are much more dynamic and perhaps even discerning about school choice, you know, that they will make choices around moving much more promptly than might be the case at home.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that keeps people on their toes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think also that families are choosing to Dubai for the longer term.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: When I visited back in 2009, 2010, it felt like many people were here for a contract and would put their children in school, but always had this long-term view they would go home.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, but it strikes me now, and you must know, given the work that you do, uh, that families tend to be choosing to stay for longer here.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're we're around a number of quite well-established communities, Talawa Gaff, uh, Victory Heights, for example, where people seem to be choosing to make their life not just for a short period, but actually for the whole time.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's definitely a different narrative of people moving here than they used to be.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: The change in demographic as well.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the schools are soaking that market up, and we're seeing the differences of those demographics in in just about every school.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with me that not every school is right for every child?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, I yes.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're in our major recruitment phase, uh, as you'd imagine, as a founding school, and I've had lots of conversations with families about that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, school fit is one of the most important decisions that a parent is going to make, and not every school is going to be right for every child.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so I think that parents rightly ought to be taking a lot of time over that decision, meet the people who are going to be involved in the education.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe what I would say is don't be distracted by the shininess, is what I would say.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, I think that every school in the city has got facilities that even the best schools in the UK would struggle to match.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that can be possibly dazzling in some ways.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I think that the real education is going to be in those who are using the facilities to deliver the educational experience.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's certainly one thing I'd recommend parents think about is meeting the people where they can, at the most senior level they can, to get a sense of what the culture of the school is going to be, given that the school leader ought to be driving the culture of the school.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think one of the problems is that if you come from the UK and a lot of people moving here are currently in UK state schools, and you live in a village, and the school at the end of the road is the one your child gets automatically put into.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly you arrive here and you've got a choice of English, IB, American, Canadian, I don't know, whatever type of curriculum.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the city's your, you know, it's it's you literally your choosing ground.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they're going to pick a mix.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the danger is that parents kind of, this school is opening here, it's shiny and it's new, and we'll go there.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then two years down the line, that school's opening and they jump.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's the impact on education for parents who are constantly jumping schools with their kids?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, I always think about this perhaps in a slightly different way.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's some good evidence that changing teachers is one of the most impactful things that can happen for a child in a negative sense.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because the loss of momentum, even with the best teachers, is difficult to make up.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I would see in that context, which is if you're moving a child to school routinely and regularly, it can be damaging if it's done too often.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes it has to happen.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's not much you can do about it if you're relocating.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, regularly moving schools can have a damaging impact on progress over time in a way that it's hard to uh perceive in the immediate moment, but actually will play out over time.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I would always urge families to kind of think about that quite carefully uh before doing it, because it can be uh unsettling uh at best and possibly damaging at worst.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I absolutely agree.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I tend to say to parents a lot, they'll phone up and they'll say, you know, I should I move my child?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the first question I say, Is your child happy?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if the answer is yes, why are you moving them?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and actually, uh, a conversation I had about three weeks ago with a family who'd approached us about the one of their children.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the parents said to me, Well, why don't you want to have my other child?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, you haven't mentioned them, and you seem to be suggesting that they're quite happy in their current school.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's the case, then that's a really good position to be in, I think.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I look, I I don't envy parents who are having to make that choice, especially where they are perhaps a bit unsettled with the current school.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, there'll be the right decision to make for some families, but in some cases the right decision will just be to stick and ride it out because in the longer term, these things tend to pan out.
• 14:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's my experience.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: They I I think they do, and I think also there's a certain amount of resilience.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if a child is marginally unhappy, the resilience is sticking it out.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no there is there's no evidence to suggest that just because you move school, it will make them happier.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I think that's absolutely right.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: To your earlier point, I think one of the key things that is changing in Dubai is the fact that teachers are staying for longer.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, and I think that we have targeted quite long-served staff for our school for that reason that teachers who are already here and who are established don't have to worry about getting their Emirates ID, finding somewhere to live, getting the driving license, all that kind of stuff.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that teachers who are longer serving have really committed to a project, and that's what we wanted.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because and I think that's more the case than it was 10 or 15 years ago, when again, people might come and do two years, perhaps four years, and then head off somewhere else on an exciting adventure traveling the world.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean the problem, Dubai is ideally located for that travel the world adventure, and it's like two years here, two years, and it it's great, but it's not good for the school or for the children because there's no longevity.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: What does really strong academic rigour look like without impacting a child being a child, effectively?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Again, another really good question, and well-being is at the forefront of everyone's mind, the government here, schools here.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about it just about every day.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our concept is that children ought in school to be comfortably stuck.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's a very British phrase, I think it's fair to say.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but the idea is that children ought to feel school is a challenge every day intellectually, and actually not just intellectually, whether it's netball or whether it's chess or whatever else it might be, they ought to find it to be a challenge.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the culture of the school ought to be such that that's just an expectation, it's not a source of anxiety for a young person.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, curating that kind of culture isn't easy, I should say, and you need the right people to deliver it, you know, because understanding a child's level and what pushing that level would look like, I think, is the job of the good, the best schools, you know.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Can you find that level and can you push beyond it?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And finding that that really perfect space where children do feel comfortably stuck, we believe to be fundamental to that kind of academic push and the academic ambition that we want uh for every child.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's quite hard here though, because in a class, um, the the diversity within a class is is it's tough.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you've always got in every class in this in this country, there's an EAL element where the inference and the deeper understanding isn't there for sort of as as much as half a class in some situations.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does that balance for and we we get a lot of conversations from parents saying my child isn't challenged?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do they make their child challenged in that situation?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think uh I know as a Russian uh the UAE towards tutoring in many cases, actually, not just in the UA, the same is true back home as it's global.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a global to not.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think some of the best learning emerges from that sense of being stuck and not having someone deliver it to you.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, so I think for parents, uh perhaps this advice is slightly counterintuitive, but having the confidence to allow your child to find things to be hard, I would say is really fundamental because some of the best learning is happening in that space.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, you know, where they're finding hard.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember myself finding aspects of mathematics at school very difficult, but as a result, I still remember some of the very hard parts.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some of the easier parts have left me.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not much of a mathematician, to be honest, but I do remember things like quadratic equations I find to be difficult to master.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And some mathematicians who are watching might find that slightly laughable.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that was kind of I I'm with you.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm in your cab.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I find that quite hard, but even now I can still remember the quadratic equation.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I still manage it because I found it to be hard, and that's been very sticky.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think resisting the temptation to rush in, uh, which isn't to say don't get the support where you think it's needed, but actually resisting the temptation for that to be the first response.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because I think looking back in 20 years, your son or daughter might actually thank you for having given them the space to develop there and take advantage of the likely outstanding teachers that they have available to them.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And teachers are often more willing to help than sometimes parents will realize.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the best teachers are always willing to invest time in clubs or activities or even one-to-one catch-ups where children are finding things pretty difficult.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly in boarding education, that's been my experience that teachers are willing to throw time at anything.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, uh, and I think finding teachers again who are willing to give over that kind of time and commit to those kinds of um actually quite transformative teaching experiences, I think, are the best teachers.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad you said that because we get in August, we obviously, as I don't know if you know, I run a tutoring company alongside, and in August I get a rush of parents going, right, my child is starting year 10, I need a tutor in place.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll go, nope, you don't need a tutor in place.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let them get stuck.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: When they're and we we will watch their first, we'll watch them at the half term.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: If at half term they're really not coping, we're happy to come in and help.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: But you let them do it on their own because if they don't learn how to learn and they don't learn how to face challenges, they will never learn for the longer term.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And parents are horrified when I tell them we won't help you right now.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's possibly one of the most interesting and perhaps like a pernicious aspects of AI, which is that children no longer ever have to be stuck.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or, well, they will be stuck, but they get an answer which hides the stuckness, if I can put it that way.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and the best AI choosing probably can help you develop the kind of cognitive skill that you need, but the worst uses of it actually won't.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: They'll do the opposite, yeah, which is uh to just give you the quick way out.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's actually potentially one of the benefits of a tutor is that at least they will have a sense of how you can be coached to acquire the skill rather than just acquire the knowledge.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: The problem with AI these days is that they will do their full GCSE, all of their coursework, all of their answers, and get to the exam and then not get the grade they've been matching for the last two years because suddenly AI is not in the exam with them, and that and that is the danger.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think parents get a bit duped by the AI answers that their children produce these days.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Although any good teacher can spot them from quite a distance, you know, and that's how to be my experience.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think the teacher can, but then we then you get that conflict with the parents saying, but the teacher's not giving my child the mark they deserve.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: I had one lovely parent the other day who said, but I checked their answer on AI and the AI said it was perfect.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I said, that's because AI wrote in the first place.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: She'd be like, no, marking their son work.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you're obviously um an academic at heart, and you know, if I cut you in half, I suspect it would say academic.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think education is going to go?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um As I said, I think that knowledge is going to become less a less a predictor of someone's economic success in the future.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I think entrepreneurship education, innovation education, I consider to be one of the next big things in education to the extent that we're investing in it heavily in our school because we think that's what's going to make the difference.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, met more children, especially in Dubai, which is a highly innovative and entrepreneurial place.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, children have got role models around them, their families, friends, parents, whoever it might be, who are making their way in the world without working for someone else, you know, and I think education is going to have to pivot much harder into that.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, it's a kind of abandonment of the Victorian model, in a sense, which was to produce children for the civil service in the UK or the kind of international colonial service.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for schools which are most focused on delivering that kind of education, and actually what I suppose you might call workplace encounter or kind of opportunities for children to for them to develop ideas and bring them to fruition will be uh putting children in the best position.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we actually have a one boy in our year 70s, a scholar for us, who is already set up his own business, 3D printing, and he 3D printed my phone case, for example.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was his first customer, you know, and that kind of experience, um, if schools can curate it for young people, I think is going to be hugely important in education.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hard to know how it's going to be scalable.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's possibly relatively straightforward to do in a small setting, you know, with one or two, maybe 10 children.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, how do you build a school which is totally geared up for that for a thousand or perhaps even two thousand children?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Harder to know, I think.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I we're working on it, but we don't have the answer.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think the danger is that there's a lot of children, we do a lot of coaching with children, and they sort of say, Oh, I want to be an entrepreneur.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you sort of say, Well, what does that look like in your life?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very hard because they see these sort of superstars and I don't know, social media stars, and they see that, but what they don't always see is the hard work and the the 24 different skill sets you've got to have to get there.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we actually are working at the moment with an old Elizabethan from the school in Barnet who I think made his first million while he was at school.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And let me say that.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he but interestingly, he and I had dinner together in London just a few weeks ago, and he focused this idea of setting up a school where there were no fees, but that he'd retain a percentage of any earnings that they made through entrepreneurship after leaving school.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, actually a really clever idea.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds possibly a little bit like you own a person, so that's got its own complications.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I think there are going to be disruptors in the market who will be willing to do things like that because the potential for growth and frankly economic earnings is really high in that space.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Dan.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we could have this conversation forever.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: It could go on.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have one curveball question that I throw all of my guests.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing everything you know today, if you could give your seven-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh be braver.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh be more confident.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I kind of waited a little bit before jumping into this first head shit, but actually, on reflection, I'm enjoying it such a great deal.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know why I waited so long.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, be braver, be confident, uh, I think is what I'd say.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time today.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's been amazing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, as we know, you open Queen Elizabeth School in September.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: August 31st.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: August 31st, Stephen.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we wish you a lot of luck there.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we will leave the links in the bio if anyone wants to go and look around.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you're always welcoming visitors.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.