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A Mother and the Adventures of Gabriel | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

0:07
Hello, Kate, you made it. Hello, Brian.
0:10
Thank you very much for inviting me.
0:11
It was, it was a pleasure and I'm sorry I was a bit late
0:15
getting to the station. There was something going on in
0:18
Plymouth. There were lots of police cars.
0:19
There was a road closed but made the rendezvous and you're here
0:25
at the UK column studio. So question, what's your
0:29
impression? First time at the column?
0:31
What do you think? What do you think?
0:33
Oh. Well, there's more of you behind
0:34
the scenes than I ever realised. I did contact Debbie Richards
0:38
beforehand to understand what the environment was like, so I
0:42
knew where I was, where I was coming.
0:43
So she'd already given me a brief but I didn't realise there
0:45
were so many of you that the team was so big.
0:47
Well, the key point about this week is we're all together and
0:52
that that's because there was a social event going on last night
0:55
which was really lovely. It is nice to have everybody
0:58
together because working remotely is OK, but it has its
1:02
has its disadvantages. And just just for the audience,
1:06
Debbie, that you're talking about, lovely lady who was
1:09
working with it is working with a charity called Match Mothers.
1:13
And that charity works with mothers who are alienated from
1:19
their children. Might, might be due to social
1:22
services, or it could be to do with some other event in their
1:26
lives. And she does a great job in
1:29
counselling them and and getting them from a bad place into a
1:34
better place. So the next thing I'll say is
1:38
how did you meet Debbie? I met Debbie at an event that
1:42
you were at 2 as your guest in Reading.
1:45
What was it about March, March or April time where there are
1:48
about 30 of us mums? I'm sure this father's in the
1:51
same position, but the thirty of us mums who have been
1:57
undesirably forcibly separated from our children to various
2:02
degrees. Yeah, and there is a there is a
2:06
specific interview that I did with Debbie and we'll make sure
2:10
that the audience can find that. And the other thing is that I
2:13
did a little, it was a chat really with Gemma Cooper from
2:18
the UK column where I asked her what her experience was of that
2:23
match mother meeting when all those ladies were in the room
2:27
with a lot of emotion. Now today we're going to do
2:31
something a little bit different because although there is the
2:35
basic undertone that you are separated from your son Gabriel,
2:40
you've been doing some really fantastic work which has taken
2:43
you into a, not just a, a national initiative.
2:48
It's, it's actually gone international.
2:51
And we're going to, we'll generally break the story with
2:54
the audience, but today we're going to be talking largely
2:57
about something really positive. But there are some questions
3:01
which still have to be asked about the system which has acted
3:06
in a way that's ultimately broken the bond between you and
3:10
your son. But what you did was very
3:12
positive. So tell me a bit about yourself,
3:17
because professionally you were a physiotherapist.
3:20
I used to be a physiotherapist for 20 or so years.
3:24
I had my own business, only worked in NHS for about 5 years
3:27
before I realised that was not a sustainable place to work.
3:30
So I set up my own clinic. So I grew so I have 4 clinics
3:34
and then sold the last one in 2020 because by that point I was
3:40
teaching the anatomy and Physiology of business to other
3:43
clinic owners. It come about because you live
3:49
in a 3D World as a physiotherapist, you see things
3:51
in structure and function and as I was learning how to run a
3:56
business, I was getting frustrated that I couldn't see
3:57
the anatomy and Physiology of it.
3:59
And once I cracked that, I was sharing that business knowledge
4:02
and language that I knew other clinicians would understand.
4:05
Right. So the important, the important,
4:08
one of the important points here is that you are an educated lady
4:13
and you've worked in a professional field in physio.
4:19
And yet at certain points the child protection system has
4:23
deemed you sort of incapable really of looking after a child.
4:28
They've made a judgement about you, even though reality is that
4:32
you've been a good mother, a very capable lady.
4:37
You've done that professional job.
4:39
You've also latterly had some very interesting papers
4:43
published, which we'll we'll get on later.
4:46
But you, you're here today to tell this story about how you've
4:50
worked with your son on the subject of storytelling, and
4:56
this has now grown just from your son, Gabriel.
4:59
It's gone international. It it This is quite an amazing
5:02
story in its own right, isn't it?
5:05
It's only starting to dawn on me, Brian, quite what Gabriel
5:08
and I have achieved and those that have supported and helpers.
5:11
But if I go back to when Gabriel was a very tiny baby, he just
5:15
wanted to be read to and read to and read to at bedtime
5:18
endlessly. And I think most children are
5:19
like that. They just love oral
5:21
storytelling. And yes, it begins with bedtime
5:24
stories, and it has grown arms and legs.
5:27
This is a very interesting point because I I have 6 grandchildren
5:32
and although all those children read and they still like mum and
5:38
dad to read to them or grandparents to read, the older
5:41
ones are now getting a little bit away from being being read
5:45
to. But I, I just found find it
5:47
lovely that in this age of the TV and videos and video games
5:53
and phones, you still see the enthusiasm for really good
5:58
children's books with, with a rhyme in it and lovely pictures
6:03
and a simple story and the children absolutely engage with
6:07
that. Well, I think what I've
6:09
recognised, and again I hadn't realised the significance of it
6:11
until I've ended up in this situation, is my Yorkshire
6:15
grandfather used to recite monologues to us endlessly.
6:19
I still can hear and it gets me through, if particularly in his
6:22
Yorkshire accent, every morning reciting it.
6:25
And my mum read to my brother and I at bedtime until we
6:28
finished Junior School. So we'd have a family story time
6:30
and then go to our bedrooms and read our own our own books.
6:33
But it also meant we were exposed to things we wouldn't
6:35
have read otherwise. You remember brother, with a
6:37
never of black Beauty, I would never have read Revolting
6:39
Rhymes. And so when Gabriel got to about
6:41
6 or 7 and he wanted to be kept being read to, I remember
6:46
raising an eyebrow with my mum. Really.
6:47
Do I have to keep reading? She said to me yes, because I
6:50
read to you until the end of Junior School.
6:51
And she was absolutely right. So we'd always kept reading a
6:54
book at bedtime, something that he perhaps wouldn't choose to
6:56
read himself. And then he would read his own
6:58
book. But if I was just too tired to
7:01
read, we would just make up a story or play with story dice.
7:04
And some of the characters in our made-up stories do appear in
7:08
the books we've since produced, so when we end up separated,
7:13
it's just obvious to return to storytelling in the car.
7:17
He would always have audiobooks. He's just always loved consuming
7:20
audio stories. And, and audio is, is a nice
7:25
medium. We're on video now, but we, we
7:28
still know absolutely in the UK column that people do like just
7:32
audio because you can be driving or walking or cycling, whatever
7:36
you want to do. And the thing about the reading
7:39
in the books is that engagement immediately helps the the
7:44
child's not only reading, but also spelling and grammar that
7:49
will. Stories of how we make sense of
7:52
the world. It's how we make sense of our
7:53
identity. We get to test out different
7:55
philosophies. We get to test out problem
7:57
solving. We get to figure out how we're
7:59
going to solve issues, how we're going to have fun, how we're
8:03
going to celebrate success. We get to figure out our place
8:06
in the world and who we are and and and and make sense of the
8:09
world around us. Yeah.
8:10
And you also said to me that as a as a physio, the whole process
8:15
of interaction with your patient is that you have to ask
8:19
questions. Well, it's, you said basically
8:22
the the dialogue of course between you is, is oral, you're
8:27
asking somebody what they feel, where's the pain and you have to
8:31
gradually tease out the story from that individual.
8:34
So again, I think some of the key things I realise I'm now
8:38
applying is that you've got to create an environment where
8:41
people are comfortable to share the story and the answer always
8:46
lies within somebody's story. So a very simple example as a,
8:50
as a physio, when you're predominantly extracting, I was
8:53
extracting stories about back pain was, well, you've got to
8:55
find out what actually makes you better.
8:57
So if you tell me you work at your desk all day and it hurts,
8:59
but you're better when you're walking, well, there we go.
9:01
We've got a big clue to your answer.
9:03
So 20 years of physiotherapy and I don't know, it must have been
9:07
over 5000 people that came through my clinics.
9:10
I'd probably say one person brought their story written
9:12
down. Everybody orated their story.
9:15
But you have to have created the environment that they're
9:17
comfortable to do that and have some sort of framework to be
9:21
able to extract the information, clarify any gaps.
9:25
And also I think what's really vital is the verbal handshake.
9:28
So when somebody has orated their story to you and you feel
9:31
you've clarified their story, repeating it back to them and
9:34
just checking, have I got this right?
9:35
So they have an opportunity to add their own edits.
9:38
But the answer always lies in somebody's story.
9:41
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. A key thing.
9:46
You had your contact with Gabriel broken and you shared
9:53
with me a video actually, of the day that your son was taken and
9:58
he was literally taken from you and your grandparents by police.
10:04
And he was marched down a short driveway in his pyjamas and he
10:10
was put in the cage in the back of a police van.
10:14
He was forcibly removed from my care the week before he turned
10:17
10. And you haven't been able to,
10:21
you haven't been able to see him since then The.
10:24
Policemen were armed. Yeah, the policemen were armed
10:30
and your son is taken away from you and.
10:32
He's put in the back of a cage. He's put in a cage in the back
10:36
of a police van and you've never harmed your son, you've never
10:41
abused him. You've never starved him.
10:43
You've never done anything to him.
10:45
And nobody had contacted me for conversation beforehand.
10:48
Yeah, but a court, a family court process takes place and
10:54
your contact with your son is broken and it just leaves you
10:58
with a telephone call once a week.
11:01
We speak for an hour a week on FaceTime and I'm able to write
11:07
to him. So I used to write to him every
11:11
day. And then after a few months, we
11:13
agreed I would write once a week.
11:14
So then I'd send him a parcel every week based on, you know,
11:17
it's Chinese New Year, it's Valentine's, it's Saint David's
11:19
Day, based on a sort of something, some inspiration I
11:22
could find from the calendar. And I still write to him every
11:26
week. Sometimes it's a postcard,
11:28
sometimes it's a parcel. It it it varies.
11:31
OK. So let's bring in a bit more of
11:33
the story because that that was the situation that you were in.
11:37
And then I think you watched an interview that I did with the
11:41
column. Is that have I got that right?
11:44
Is that how you found the column?
11:45
I found the column, I was running my own podcast.
11:50
Jeremy Nell got me through 2020 and at some point I started to
11:55
run my own podcast and it was basically business education for
11:58
the clinic owners and you had as an audience.
12:00
And at some point I had both Sam and Mark Bailey on my podcast
12:03
who were in New Zealand, and they directed me to you.
12:07
So yes, via New Zealand, I came back to Plymouth.
12:10
Well, that, well, that's pretty good.
12:12
And I started to realise I wasn't alone.
12:14
That's when it dawned me I wasn't alone.
12:16
And so then you start digging and asking questions.
12:18
Well what is going on here? Because I'm being blamed for
12:21
things that don't make sense, facts being ignored, conjecture
12:25
is absolutely out of hand. And you start to question what
12:29
is going on, what is going on. So you start digging in to, you
12:33
know, discovering like the 2020 harms report, finding Cher in
12:36
the University of Manchester's reports, and just finding other
12:40
examples that start to actually make sense about the fact that
12:45
harm is being done by the family courts to, well, I was looking
12:49
at point of view from mothers and children, but again, I'm
12:51
sure there are fathers in similar situations.
12:54
Yes, now we're, we're not today. We're not going to spend a lot
12:58
of time talking about the Family Court, but this is for our
13:02
audience. This is setting the scene that
13:04
you're, you're a mum and you physical contact with your son
13:08
is broken. And the only contact you've got
13:11
is to, to be able to share letters with him and speak to
13:15
him over the phone. And at the time you first spoke
13:19
to me, I will say it was evident to me that you were, you were, I
13:23
think you were very tired and you were also in a very bad
13:26
place. And so you told me the positive
13:29
and that was that you were still in contact with Gabriel.
13:33
Because of course, for some parents, they suffer because
13:35
they don't have any contact. I think one of the things that
13:39
was actually very helpful about watching the videos, there were
13:42
two that really stuck out to me. Leah Summers, social worker from
13:46
Gloucestershire, who described what the experiences of dealing
13:50
with Gloucestershire Children's services from her perspective.
13:54
And also Claire and Bethany's video where the removal of
13:59
Gabriel was very similar, just more rapid.
14:03
And that I found gratitude. I could find gratitude, which I
14:08
think made a big difference to how I started to approach what
14:13
we were doing because I could find gratitude for Gabriel's
14:15
age. The gratitude.
14:16
We did have contact. They didn't know where he is.
14:18
I can write to him. Yeah.
14:20
And by by gratitude, you mean just keep this simple.
14:24
It was a positive aspect because when when people go through
14:27
these horrible processes through the family courts and they
14:31
children are taken away, everything is dark and
14:34
everything is negative. So I'm putting words in your
14:37
mouth, but but you were saying that you you started to be able
14:40
to see some positive things that you did have in the.
14:44
Situation you were in start having to find appreciation for
14:47
what you've got and what you can do with what you've got you've
14:50
got to find a way of getting to a solution.
14:53
It's quite clear that being able to think critically and read
14:59
reports is not seen with gratitude by the system.
15:05
But if you can find gratitude or appreciation for what you do
15:08
have in your Gabriel said it to me Mum.
15:11
He said to me, Mum, use all your skills.
15:13
So all my skills means I am going to read, I am going to
15:15
speak, I am going to do what we what we've done with stories,
15:19
which we'll talk about in a moment.
15:20
And I think that was the thing it's you start to realise when
15:23
you hear other people's stories that actually within your
15:25
situation, you have things and everybody's different, but you
15:28
have things that you can do. And it's exactly what Gabriel
15:31
said to me. You then, once you see what you
15:32
can do and what you have got, how do you use all your skills
15:36
to create focus, stop being so distracted and make something
15:41
happen? Yeah, something very positive
15:43
happened as is so. Yeah, because I didn't see that
15:47
ranting and raving on the soapbox was going to help either
15:49
of us. And I was just very, very
15:50
concerned. I was very aware that my only
15:52
option, which again, probably goes back to the physiotherapy,
15:56
but my only option was to empower my son.
15:59
The situation we were in. He was silenced, as many
16:01
children are. And this is, you know,
16:02
documented repeatedly in like the KC report and the Harms
16:06
report and the recent UN report of the family courts in the UK
16:10
when children are silenced. What is your only option?
16:13
Your only option is to empower your child.
16:15
And previously I'd have used sport to do that and cheered him
16:20
on on the sidelines. Now all we had was letter
16:24
writing and our our FaceTime. But one of his greatest love
16:28
since he'd been tiny was stories.
16:31
And I was mocked. I was sat in the court in the
16:34
January, so a month after he'd been forcibly removed from my
16:37
care, and I was mocked that I was going to have this hour of
16:41
FaceTime. And how on earth are you going
16:43
to talk to a 10 year old for an hour?
16:46
I can talk to my son for an hour.
16:49
And you have no idea how much he loves the story.
16:52
So on the very first FaceTime call, which would have been, I
16:55
don't know, probably six weeks since he'd been taken from me,
16:59
I'd been into his bedroom and found a Michael Nopurgo book,
17:03
The Puffin Keeper, which is set in the sillies and it's
17:05
beautifully illustrated. And we talked for a little bit,
17:09
but both of us were shell shocked.
17:10
Both of us were just we just read.
17:15
I read like Jack and Ori and I just read to him and we, because
17:18
it was an illustrated book, looked at the pictures and over
17:21
probably took us about a month to get through that book in that
17:26
time. At the end of that he wanted to
17:27
then read to me so we we went for about 6 months of reading to
17:30
one another. Was that all telephone or did
17:33
you did you have sort of FaceTime?
17:36
FaceTime. The easiest way to describe it
17:38
is like Jack and Rory I'm reading a bit, we're looking at
17:40
the picture. Then after about once we'd
17:42
finished that book he went and got a book that was sort of boys
17:45
invention book. He wanted to read a book to me.
17:47
He read to me. We played pen and pencil games.
17:50
So I don't know ham man noughts and crosses or his favorite 1
17:53
was doodling 2 contrasting things.
17:56
You know, if you doodle the snowman sunbathing and him
17:59
having to guess and then he would do the same for me.
18:03
And then we, I got a illustrated copy of Treasure Island.
18:08
And I think this is really significant because we were
18:12
reading Treasure Island and of course the main character's a
18:15
little boy and the little boy's called Jim and my father gave
18:19
his granddad's called Jim. And when we finished Treasure
18:21
Island, it just seemed, I don't even know where we got the
18:25
inspiration from, but it just seemed obvious to say to
18:27
Gabriel, should we make up a story where you're the hero?
18:30
Of course. Instantly there was no
18:33
hesitation. The answer was yes.
18:35
I've now asked 465 other children that same question.
18:38
Nobody said no to me yet. Yeah, it's brilliant.
18:42
It's brilliant jump, isn't it? And and two things have happened
18:45
because in in your step storytelling with me today,
18:49
you've you've gone from what was a very difficult situation
18:54
because you see Gabriel, but what you couldn't do is touch
18:58
him and and this makes a huge. We have these virtual hugs.
19:03
Virtual hugs for. Quite a long time on FaceTime,
19:06
but yes. And he's been living, he's been
19:08
living a difficult life as a little boy.
19:11
So these are very emotional interactions and then you have
19:16
the opportunity to use a very short sharp interaction as as
19:22
the means to create something. And this is this is where the
19:26
story starts. So he instantly says to me, yes.
19:29
And, and maybe because we'd made-up stories at bedtime in
19:33
the past, yes, I want to be, you know, I want to be the hero.
19:36
I want to defeat a sea monster. OK, go.
19:38
But well, what does your sea monster look like?
19:39
Well, he's got 2 heads and he starts describing the sea
19:42
monster. And so then I add to it.
19:44
So is that like a leviathan and a Kraken?
19:46
He's I don't know what Leviathan is.
19:47
So we talk about that and yes, yes, yes.
19:49
What's it called? I don't know.
19:50
So we brainstorm some names. He chooses the name and I hadn't
19:54
really recognised at the time until later I was asked.
19:57
But essentially I was applying the same skills as I would have
19:59
as a physio to extract somebody's story about back
20:02
pain. Just tell me more, tell me more.
20:03
And if somebody gets stuck teasing out a little bit more
20:07
detail. And I just scribbled notes down.
20:10
I wasn't writing a sentence, I just scribbled notes down.
20:12
And I had slightly started to run out of ideas in terms of
20:15
what to send as his weekly parcel.
20:19
So I had then thought, well what I'm going to do is like Dickens
20:21
will write a bit a week and I'll post it to you every week.
20:24
And, and, and I wrote out the 1st chapter from what he first
20:29
told me about this sea monster. And I did some pencil and pen
20:32
drawing to go with it. And I have two very, very, very
20:38
good friends who were very honest.
20:40
And one of them looked at that drawing and said, you can do
20:43
better than that. I was like, OK, yeah, but me
20:45
getting better at drawing is down for retirement, and I'm not
20:48
there yet. So I knew granddad was messing
20:52
around on AI art, so I asked granddad if he would create some
20:55
images. So I then read back to Gabriel
21:00
each week, what I've typed up, what I've understood.
21:03
And I, I had my own expansion to it as well.
21:07
And I read back and he adds his edits.
21:09
No, no, mum, I wouldn't just walk past an owl.
21:10
An owl would give me a clue, would give me some wisdom.
21:13
I'd have to solve the puzzle there.
21:14
OK, well, what puzzle are you going to solve?
21:16
Then I show him the pictures granddad's chose made and he
21:18
chooses yet. That's my owl.
21:20
That's my and one of the most significant things in the
21:24
stories was that he had a sidekick.
21:26
So he wasn't alone. He was at no point alone.
21:30
And the sidekick he chose was it was obvious to us both there was
21:35
no option. It was a platypus because that
21:36
had been his favorite, most significant cuddly toy as it was
21:40
charged with Can do a platypus can swim a platypus can it can
21:45
it can a. Special creature.
21:46
Wow. And so he wasn't alone.
21:51
He had a Rob into his Batman throughout his stories.
21:55
There are also other characters in the story that are
21:58
significant. Right, so as this story is, I'm
22:02
going to say coming to life 1, Gabriel's imagination is going.
22:07
So that's taking him into a a better space from where he was
22:11
physically. Yes, and I share.
22:14
I share things. You know, I've listened to
22:16
friends talk. I mean, I say, you know, I heard
22:18
a somebody speak this week and this is what they were talking
22:21
about. And I tell him and then he, oh,
22:23
I like that. Let's I have an invisible cage
22:25
in my story. So one of the stories he breaks
22:27
an invisible cage, which is a theme that somebody else had
22:30
referenced to me. So we're creating these stories
22:33
together and you can imagine it's starting to consume my
22:35
desktop. And we get to about 8 weeks and
22:37
after about 8 weeks, we've got 6 short stories.
22:40
And by now I put them into a Word document just simply so I
22:42
can see my desktop again, so I can do my normal day job.
22:46
Mum, it's a book, It's a book. I'm OK in my mind.
22:49
I didn't say it to go Bob it in my mind I'm thinking OK, get 2
22:51
printed, one for you and one for Grant and Granddad.
22:54
No Mum, it's a book. It's a real book.
22:57
OK, so at some point in my podcast I've had somebody talk
23:01
about self-publishing. I thought I'd better go and dig
23:03
up that contact again. I have a chat with Kevin and
23:07
Kevin says sure, send it over to me.
23:09
Right, brilliant. And and we actually have a copy
23:11
of that. You do?
23:13
Yeah, you do. We can.
23:16
We can hold it up to 111 of the cameras.
23:18
I'll do that one and we'll make sure that we get this.
23:21
So I'm afraid I need my glasses now.
23:24
So this one's a series of 6 short stories.
23:26
The the sort of metaphor I am very consciously weaving into it
23:30
is don't give up. I'm thinking at this point, OK,
23:33
well, I have no idea what we're going to do, darling, but don't
23:35
give up. If you don't give up, we'll find
23:37
a solution. Yeah, right.
23:39
OK, so the basics then we've we've got, well, we've got a
23:43
stylized Gabriel standing on the deck of a what's obviously got
23:47
to be a fine ship. I suspect it's a pirate ship.
23:50
And this one is called the Adventures of Gabriel.
23:54
What's the small print here? I really love this book and the
23:58
puzzles are great fun from Noah T So and it says at the top 6
24:04
short stories of adventure Gabriel and Kate Markland.
24:09
So absolutely brilliant book and the illustrations let me find a
24:14
nice one Where's well, that one was particularly fine.
24:18
So lovely illustration. So your hour a week telephone
24:24
call, video call with your son goes from just being a very
24:31
stressful interaction to the fact that you you produce
24:35
something which is incredible. Really.
24:37
Is this book? And.
24:39
And you also realise that you'd created a process because you
24:45
didn't. You'd done particular things in
24:47
order to get the information out of Gabriel and into the book.
24:52
I didn't realise that at the time.
24:53
We just, we just did what we did.
24:55
But I, I, when it was for, I got it out a year ago, it was this
25:00
time last year because it's Cheltenham Literature Festival.
25:03
And I had it out in time for Cheltenham Literature was out in
25:05
time for Cheltenham Literature Festival, which is where my
25:08
parents are based. And of course I'm given the
25:11
nudge, go on, go and take it. And so I show it to the
25:17
gentleman from Waterstones children's tent.
25:19
He's there every year from Edinburgh, running the
25:21
children's tent there because Gabe had had a long conversation
25:24
with him when he was 708 about how, you know, as you get a
25:28
better reader, great, but where are the pictures?
25:31
And so Graham really appreciated that, you know, Gable's own
25:34
books, having the pictures in it were really important because
25:38
the pictures go too soon. And I also had the very, very
25:43
much a blessing of meeting Helen Fielding of Bridget Jones.
25:46
And this is where, again, you have to find the blessings
25:48
because I couldn't have dreamt of meeting her and I did.
25:52
And she really highlighted what she thought was magic was when
25:56
one age group read for its age, her age group.
25:59
So obviously I'm avid Bridget Jones generation as a 20 year
26:01
old, she wrote for 20 year olds. So she thought it was magic that
26:04
children were writing for children.
26:06
And she wrote beautifully in the front of one of the books for
26:08
Gabriel. It's your story.
26:11
Write as if you're writing to a friend.
26:13
And every child in our workshops sees that and they understand
26:17
that this is a, I don't know how many billions of books she's
26:20
sold, but she's saying the same message.
26:22
It's your story, right? As if you're writing to a
26:24
friend. And that takes away fears of
26:27
difficulty because they know how to do that.
26:30
But yes, a very good friend of mine who knew me from the
26:35
healthcare world was running a networking event in Birmingham.
26:38
Kate, you're coming along and no, you're not talking business,
26:40
you're not talking healthcare. You're going to talk about that
26:42
book. I don't know how I got through
26:45
the 10 minute talk, but I did Brian.
26:48
And then he kept telling me, keep talking, keep talking, keep
26:53
talking and you're going to keep talking about that book.
26:55
And there was another chap called Chris who at some point
26:59
saw me speak. And he works in web development
27:03
and design. And he said your presentation's
27:06
a mess, which it was, but you've got something here.
27:09
He really said what you're doing is special, you know.
27:11
And so that gave me the the two of them gave me the confidence,
27:14
right? Keep going, keep going, keep
27:15
going. And there was something else I
27:17
did that was really small at the same time was I got my photo
27:21
taken, Brian, because I needed to see myself smile.
27:24
But I didn't know I needed to see myself smile until I got the
27:27
photos back. Yeah, Yeah.
27:30
And then you sort of out of the hole somewhat into a can do
27:35
place because you've now got some traction.
27:38
Well, this, this is really important and, and I have
27:41
interacted mainly with mums who've been through this
27:45
horrible process. Some of them are still in the
27:47
process and it, it is very noticeable.
27:51
You know, you can talk to them over quite long periods and they
27:54
never smile. But if you do get them to
27:57
recount something or do something with a smile and that
28:01
is an instant change of energy. And as I have said to many, many
28:06
mums that when you look after yourself and you are in a better
28:10
place and you're stronger, then you fight better.
28:13
But if you're, you're always feeling very down and pressured
28:17
and tired and stressed and anxious and all the other things
28:21
that come in, then you're, you're not in a good position to
28:23
fight. So it's interesting, isn't it?
28:25
Creating this book. Gabriel was getting therapy and
28:30
so were you self created therapy, but it was happening
28:33
both sides of the line. Yes, and the confidence was
28:39
growing in both of us. And I think the most noticeable
28:42
thing for Gabriel was that came out at the beginning of October
28:47
and it must have been sometime in the November we started on
28:50
Book 2 and he was really clear. Can we bring a Dojo back to
28:53
life? Can we go and visit all these
28:55
endangered animals around the world and find their wisdom and
28:57
see if they've got clues on how to do it?
28:58
And because Platy might be endangered too.
29:00
And so he had the whole concept for and it was a much more
29:03
confident concept. It was a whole complete story
29:06
rather than a series of 6 short stories.
29:09
And so I asked, right, OK, if we're going to do this, we need
29:11
to do a story arc. We need to make the plot so I
29:13
know where we're we're going. And I needed to think about how
29:17
I was going to go from a physio that only ever took notes to
29:20
writing a proper book, not just a story.
29:23
Book. Yeah, but it also then meant
29:25
because I have all, I always live with trepidation of that,
29:28
you know, of what if we didn't have our one hour?
29:33
So we were quite clear that there's a YouTube channel, a
29:36
TikTok channel, which aren't really used at all, but they're
29:39
there. And the then contact was removed
29:42
for the month of December when it's Gabriel's birthday, it's
29:45
Christmas, it's New Year, we don't speak for the month.
29:48
But because we plotted that story out, I sensed I was being
29:51
provoked. Bye.
29:56
I was being provoked. I just kept writing.
29:57
I just, it was hard. It was dark, but I just kept
30:01
writing. I could do something
30:03
constructive for Gabriel. I could do something.
30:06
And then in January, contact resumes.
30:11
Yes, yeah. So the, the book is therapy for
30:15
both of you, but also the dynamic of, of you doing that,
30:21
that process with Gabriel impacted on the situation in
30:29
which he was still, he, he was still trapped.
30:32
We're not going to talk about the details of that, but I'm
30:35
sure the audience understands what we're getting at.
30:38
Now. Where that went, if I've got
30:41
this correct, is that you then start to talk to other people
30:45
about the concept. So you mentioned the men and
30:47
your first talk, but also you start to talk to people in
30:50
education. Where, where was the 1st?
30:54
The first. School was in Bradford, so the
30:57
more I talked about the book, the more I was asked about the
30:59
process, but also I'd shared it with a couple, as well as Helen
31:02
Fielding, a couple of other people that happened to know
31:05
about children's literature. My maternal family's from
31:08
Bradford. I'm invited by a very, very
31:11
wonderful family friend who works in education in Bradford
31:13
into a workshop in Bradford. We do the first workshop, 60
31:17
children, all in year 6. They love it.
31:20
They love being the hero of their own story.
31:22
Miss, miss, miss, can I go to a football pitch?
31:25
It's your story, anything's possible.
31:27
I was kind of expecting as a 10 year old boy, you're in a
31:29
football pitch for 90% of your day.
31:33
Children that the teachers thought had, I don't know,
31:37
combinations of labels coming up, putting their hands up to
31:39
share their story. The children all giving each
31:41
others round of applauses. Quite small girls standing up to
31:46
some taller boys going. Yeah, that's all right.
31:48
But what's the back story? Alien apocalypses or whatever it
31:51
is don't just happen like that. I want the back story.
31:53
You're also talking about children that as far as teacher
31:56
was concerned, that child didn't really have much confidence to
32:00
speak out in front of the other children and then in your
32:04
project they did. Yeah, and the teacher's saying,
32:06
wow, they spoke. So the wow factor went from one
32:09
school to a total of 9. Yes, we've been to 9 schools in
32:14
total. Now and that and and you've
32:15
interacted with 450 children. Yeah, 465 children or
32:19
thereabouts have taken, have have created their stories
32:22
through the workshop. And I invite the children to
32:26
evaluate the workshop so they all get the chance to evaluate
32:30
what it's meant to them to be the author of their own story.
32:33
And then all I've done is summarize that information their
32:37
own evaluation for themes. I'm a bit provocative here, so
32:41
here's mum who's absolutely been hammered and you were not
32:45
capable and your child's taken away from you and you're a bit
32:50
mad and all sorts of other descriptions were thrown at you.
32:55
But you did this and then you get a fantastic response from
32:58
people in education, but you also spoke to some people in the
33:03
media, didn't you? What What happened?
33:05
What happened when you the Yorkshire?
33:07
Post we've been in that I don't know how many times.
33:09
It's it's about 8 Times Now. We've been in the Yorkshire Post
33:12
and then from the Yorkshire Post, I'm on BBC Radio
33:16
Gloucestershire. We've been on MSN, Yahoo and
33:21
then the Canadian Educators. I write to one of the Canadian
33:23
educator magazines. I can't.
33:25
They picked up on it, then a second one pick up on it and
33:29
yes, now we're getting international education, media
33:32
interest as well as the mainstream.
33:34
I'm saying the Yorkshire Post, but things like that.
33:36
We've been in the Gloucestershire news a couple of
33:38
times, Gloucestershire Live and Cheltenham Post.
33:40
So when I look at the amount of PR that we've had in the last 12
33:47
months, I'm starting to realise that what we've created is
33:52
really quite special, Brian. But it is special.
33:55
And the media people that you spoke to because on several
33:59
phone calls you were utterly amazed at how enthusiastic they
34:03
were. It wasn't just they did a
34:05
report, they were actually engaged with it.
34:09
And I'm particularly interested in how you were managing to
34:13
engage with children so well. Yes, the, I think, well, the,
34:19
the summary from one of the Bradford teachers, a very quick
34:21
summary from him was you found a way to get teach children to
34:24
write. If they can write, I can teach.
34:26
If they won't put. And I hadn't even thought about
34:30
that. Yeah.
34:32
And the the confidence and the collaboration, again, when
34:36
people are worrying about conflict in schools, these
34:38
children are working, working together collaboratively and
34:40
celebrating that. And the education media that's
34:43
been interested has been from North America to Asia.
34:46
So it's English speaking world, but it's across.
34:49
Cultures. Cross cultures and yes, there's
34:52
a question of how do we distribute this in our country.
34:55
Yeah, which is, which is fantastic.
34:58
And then the the, I think you might have alluded to this a
35:01
little bit earlier on, but within society, particularly in
35:05
the in the family court system, but also in education, children
35:11
are are really being silenced in, in the way they're being
35:14
taught. There's a lot of regimentation
35:16
in the classroom, sit and listen and pay attention, but don't
35:21
speak. And certainly in the family
35:24
court system, although they say that the the the voice of the
35:28
child is important, invariably the child isn't listened to in
35:32
the family court. So your whole process and you
35:37
feel this strongly is giving children of all different
35:41
nationalities, cultures, the opportunity that they're getting
35:44
a voice. Children are getting a voice and
35:47
one of the things one of the schools in Manningham in quite
35:51
central Bradford we're really proud of was going on the radio
35:54
and that five, I think it's four o'clock 5:00 every evening for a
35:58
week. One of them was reading their
36:00
story on the radio and they absolutely loved that.
36:03
And that's been one of the most listened to almost consumed
36:06
things that we've done is the children reading their own
36:09
story. And the the hosts of the
36:11
Bradford Community Radio were really impressed with the
36:13
quality of what was. And this was year six children,
36:16
1011 year olds, yeah. And of course, everybody's
36:18
winning because the children are winning, the teachers are
36:21
winning the school, the reputation of the school is
36:24
winning. There was a school I was at last
36:26
week and the teachers were very, very generous with their honesty
36:30
and just how exhausted they are too, and how they're being.
36:33
They can't. They're struggling with
36:35
engagement, with motivation, with behaviour, and the solution
36:42
they're being put is being put to them is to be more
36:46
entertaining. But they recognise we're not
36:47
YouTube influencers and they would probably learn far more if
36:49
they were YouTube influencers than they do as a teacher.
36:52
But what we're showing them is the entertainment was within
36:55
this child. So yes, so much is in, in, in.
36:58
And the child not being heard and conferences I've been to,
37:00
the child's voice isn't being presented where you think it
37:02
should be. But what we're seeing is
37:05
actually the entertainment was within the child.
37:08
You don't need to compete with their iPad.
37:10
Let them express. Themselves, yeah, isn't it the
37:12
brilliant imagination of a child actually?
37:15
And of course there are many people these days that say.
37:20
Whereas before children would have a few relatively simple
37:24
toys and to play with those toys they had to use their
37:27
imagination as to what they needed.
37:29
They had a car, but they didn't have any roads or so things were
37:34
created in their mind and now we've got to everything based on
37:38
a computer that takes away that. So we're going back to something
37:43
really quite old and and valuable.
37:46
Really, all in their mind, they just want to be heard.
37:48
They want an opportunity to, they want you to do it with
37:51
them, to collaborate with. This isn't a homework exercise.
37:55
If they produce a beautiful picture or writing afterwards,
37:57
great. But that's not what it's about.
37:58
It's about connecting. Primarily this has been about
38:01
connecting and empowering my son.
38:03
And then I've tried it with 465 others and it's working and it's
38:07
joyful, it's engaging, it's building their confidence and
38:14
the teachers are realising that the entertainment is within the
38:18
child. It builds a child's confidence,
38:20
it improves their self perception and their self
38:22
aspiration. The children are seeing
38:23
themselves as authors. They're saying I'm going to be
38:26
an author in the future. And some of these children it's.
38:28
Pretty powerful statement, isn't it?
38:30
Because that's that's, that's giving them a well, they are
38:34
giving themselves a future because they are identifying
38:37
that in the future they can be something.
38:40
There's just three quotes that I've brought here to share with
38:43
you. These are from children and
38:44
these three are actually all in Brad from a mixture of city
38:47
centre schools to country schools, but that's the themes
38:50
are the same. I didn't know I had so many
38:52
stories in me until I was allowed to let them out.
38:56
I like writing my story with no rules, only my rules, not
39:02
anybody else's rules. They should get a job here,
39:04
Brian. OK, that's good.
39:06
That's good. And then the last one I brought
39:08
here is it was so much more fun than any English we've done so
39:12
far. I didn't get told that it was
39:14
wrong or bad. And there's a little message
39:21
from the teacher here saying you can do all the teaching, but
39:24
when it comes to story writing, sometimes children just shut
39:27
down Story Quest, which is what we've called the process change
39:30
that. They're joyful, they're buzzing,
39:32
they're excited, they're asking when can we do this?
39:34
Can we do this tomorrow? Can we come back early from
39:36
lunchtime? When do we get to do this again?
39:38
Or one school was beautifully having the year 6 children share
39:41
their stories with the year five children.
39:43
And then the year sixes were taking the year fives through
39:45
their process. So the year five children were
39:47
then being inspired and they're then asking the teacher, Miss,
39:50
Miss, Miss, can we write our stories now?
39:52
And the teacher's looking at me amazed.
39:53
And this is boys as well as girls.
39:56
It's they're they're wanting the opportunity to express
39:59
themselves. That imagination is still there.
40:01
It's not gone anywhere. It's brilliant now.
40:04
You also said to me it was important that you started the
40:07
process of engaging with the children before the day before
40:11
the day that you were actually going to be there in the
40:14
classroom. So what?
40:15
What did you do to start that engagement process?
40:18
So I know I don't want them to spend all morning thinking who
40:21
is she trying to figure it out? They need to feel some
40:23
connection and understand who I am and what we're going to do
40:26
beforehand. So they get in the post a parcel
40:29
beforehand. The envelope is marked Caution
40:32
live platypus. Inside they have their own
40:35
platy. OK, let's hold the platypus out.
40:37
Sorry, sorry. The camera you can see here 1
40:40
platypus. Yeah.
40:41
They have a copy of the book with a suggestion or invitation
40:44
to read some of it before we get there, so they get the concept
40:47
and they have a letter from Platy that is explaining what's
40:50
going to happen in the day and inviting them to think about who
40:53
they would like as their sidekick before I arrive.
40:55
I also send a very short video of me saying hello, which not
40:59
all the children have seen but at least the teachers have so
41:01
I'm not a complete stranger when I walk in.
41:04
And the enthusiasm. And you use the platypus because
41:07
the platypus was the was the soft toy size for the first
41:13
book. So Gabriel's sidekick.
41:14
So who's going to be there? Robin, Who's going to be there?
41:16
Or you know, we, we go through lots of different examples.
41:19
I mean we use Sonic as an example.
41:21
Sonic's got about 5 sidekicks, but I remind them for.
41:23
My daughter, it was a it was a cuddly turtle, which she has
41:29
still got and so that tells you something.
41:31
And yes, Gabriel has made a video where he's, which we've
41:35
recorded over FaceTime, where he says hello to the children and
41:39
that he's the author of his book and he's really looking forward
41:43
to hearing their stories. And sometimes some of the
41:46
children have made videos back to Gabriel so they feel they
41:50
seem to have a connection with each other without having
41:52
actually met. Yeah, let's hold the big book up
41:56
because. So this was our this was our
41:58
second book which I only got the copy of yesterday and this this
42:03
is a full 1 full story proper book.
42:06
And again, beautiful, beautiful pictures in it all the way
42:11
through. But yeah, this is how many pages
42:13
has this got? It's a proper book.
42:16
It's a proper book. I know.
42:19
Where are we? I think it was 285.
42:22
Yeah, Something like that. And that's one continuous story
42:25
and that really the theme of that overall, it has ended up
42:28
being hope in that we ended up calling this fossilized dodo
42:32
that's in the caves of Coral Cove hope.
42:34
And can we restore hope? Can we bring hope back to life
42:39
or the dodo back to life? So there's lots of layers to
42:42
what's going on here. And of course, Gabriel has
42:45
become, well, he's become famous.
42:48
He has become a little bit famous, but he doesn't.
42:50
I show him what I can, but he's sadly denied the opportunity to
42:58
experience it all. Yeah, but he still knows inside,
43:01
doesn't he? That's that's.
43:03
The children in Bradford would love to meet him.
43:05
Well, OK, let's just, we'll just say a little bit on that because
43:09
you, you've been around all these schools and you've been in
43:12
and spoken to the BBC for example, and they are all
43:18
glowing and enthusiastic over your good work, but they don't
43:21
actually realise that you're not in daily physical contact with
43:26
your son. When I say we did it at the
43:28
kitchen table on a Friday night, that's the truth.
43:30
I was sat in the kitchen table. Gabriel was just on the other
43:32
side of the iPad rather than sat with me.
43:33
Yeah. But the, the real truth under
43:36
this, which is the fact that you're not together, that is
43:39
not, that's not known yet, but you, you've become, you've
43:45
become, I was going to use the word celebrity again, because
43:49
obviously for a lot of these people, they're really intrigued
43:51
what you're doing for it to go international.
43:54
You've, you've made a huge, a huge impact.
43:57
And then you say as a mother, you've done what was a simple
44:03
thing in the beginning and it's turned into something really
44:05
brilliantly positive for other mothers.
44:10
They've got the opportunity to maybe pick up some of this.
44:14
And, and also, yeah, there are other mothers that can only
44:19
write letters to their children. Some some of them get phone
44:23
calls, but this is turning a very short period of contact
44:27
into into a very special thing. I don't think I will ever forget
44:31
Gabriel's words of mum. Use all your skills.
44:34
Yeah. And then I've just taken that to
44:35
me. And I think the other thing is
44:38
that people will help you, but you have to help yourself.
44:43
So I've had to have my writing edited.
44:45
I mean, I haven't written a story since I left school.
44:48
Yeah, we. Have a Diane here.
44:50
He does that. He does that.
44:51
Yeah, 2 very kind motorbikers have loved editing the book
44:55
because they've wanted to make sure young boys know exactly
44:58
what the engineering of a dragon is.
44:59
Yeah, so how they're propelled is written in there, but I
45:03
couldn't add that. Yeah.
45:04
So people will help you, but you have to be, you have to find
45:08
some way of helping yourself so that people can get behind you
45:11
and and and support you and help you.
45:14
And you are different now as a result of doing this.
45:17
I, I can say to the audience now, because I've known you're
45:19
going to have to know that you still, you still have your ups
45:23
and downs and that's never going to go away.
45:25
But you are a different lady to the lady that I first came into
45:30
contact. You were in.
45:32
You were in a bad place. Well.
45:34
I think again for context is as a student, I was an elite
45:36
athlete and I rode and the trains twice a day and I was
45:43
going to GB trials. And you kept going, however much
45:45
it hurt. So I knew to keep going.
45:48
I knew just to keep going. But the level of fear that is
45:53
instilled into you by the state is, is crippling.
46:00
And it's, I've said to you, military grade psychological
46:04
warfare. They know as a mother, your
46:05
child is your weakest link. But the more I started to see
46:10
what we had and what we could do, the more the trust between
46:16
Gabriel and I has deepened. Every single week I asked him,
46:19
are we keeping going? And every week now it's like,
46:21
yeah, of course we are a no brainer.
46:25
So what's happened and the thanks to you, Brian, is once, I
46:30
think it was in March time when I showed you the books and told
46:32
you what we were doing. You said to me, keep calm, Kate,
46:35
and keep going, keep going, keep going.
46:38
And that gave me confidence. It removed fear.
46:42
But there are things such as I still don't have a car after my
46:47
car was tracked. There are things I still do to
46:50
protect myself. Yeah, yeah.
46:53
Which, but not quite normal. You realise you're still living
46:58
in a dystopia because of the level of fear that's been put on
47:01
to you, even though you are highly competent, highly
47:04
capable, and none of the things that you've been labeled as
47:09
based on conjecture, not on fact.
47:10
Yeah, well I think many people who are watching this will,
47:15
certainly many people in the UK column audience know that my
47:19
comments on the family course are they are outrageous places
47:23
and there's no question that psychology is used to abuse,
47:28
sometimes the mum, sometimes both parents.
47:31
I think one of the things that really appalled me was again, I
47:35
knew I wasn't a pediatric physio, but I knew the
47:39
consequences of adverse childhood experiences can have
47:42
devastating impact on life expectancy, on long term health.
47:46
And here are repeated adverse childhood experiences being
47:50
inflicted on my son and other children, which Elizabeth
47:54
Delangeio and Shearer in the University of Manchester have
47:56
described as a public health crisis, which they are, because
48:01
you're you're impacting a child's life long term.
48:04
And they know that, they know that.
48:08
You've taken, you've taken this battle on to some groups who
48:16
have well, no, let's do it this way.
48:18
The the government re recently is admitted there are problems
48:22
in the family courts and that led to a panel being set up and
48:29
you've actually not only challenged that panel, you've
48:32
submitted some information to them as as they investigate the
48:37
family courts Tell tell a little bit of tell a little bit more
48:41
about that and how it works. There was a Public Accounts
48:44
Committee inquiry that closed early June and people were
48:49
invited to submit reports. Some reports are made public,
48:52
some are kept confidential. But last week the conclusion of
48:57
that report was they made public and that is that the Parliament
49:02
are acknowledging that there are failures in the public courts in
49:06
in the in the family courts, that they are failing mothers
49:10
and mothers specifically says mothers and children, but that
49:12
they are failing. And there is overwhelming, like
49:16
I say, in May there was Aun human rights visit to the UK and
49:21
they looked at the family courts and described the harms to
49:23
mothers and children and the silencing of children.
49:25
We know there's the government 2020 Harms report, we know the
49:29
same themes appear in the Casey Thought Report, although it's a
49:31
different thing. But with the silencing of
49:33
children it's the same themes. So there is.
49:41
What more do a mother and child have to do?
49:45
Yeah. Well, my answer to that is it's
49:48
not so much what one mother and child have to do.
49:52
It's it's what a lot of mothers and children do because it's the
49:55
powers in the number of mums and you, you've been fighting very
49:59
hard. But that panel, what did you
50:02
describe it as is not a panel. What is?
50:04
It the Public Accounts Committee.
50:06
Public committee. That committee took evidence
50:10
from you about your case and in your mind, their work is
50:17
important enough to directly challenge the family court
50:21
system to say that, OK, not only you are you failing, but you've
50:26
failed specifically in my case. But you're not getting, you're
50:32
not getting a sort of tough response from them that they're
50:36
going to deal with the family Court.
50:37
It's gone quiet at the moment. Is that right?
50:42
Some of the reports submitted were kept confidential, Brian,
50:46
but there would be, if I were writing a report, 4 tiers of
50:48
evidence that you could obviously put in.
50:50
One tier being the government's own failings and acknowledged
50:53
failings, another being professional reports such as I
50:56
mentioned the Shearer one, another tier being local, so
51:01
local councils, so or, or counties.
51:04
So for example, Gloucestershire Police acknowledging in May that
51:06
they'd failed child protection audit and Gloucestershire
51:10
Children's Services previously been Ofstens rated very poorly
51:15
on by Ofsted. And then of course there's the
51:19
personal story where you're at the effect of all of this.
51:22
So essentially there would be opportunity there to hand
51:25
somebody back, hand Parliament back in a report to their own
51:29
dirty laundry and show how that you're at the effect of this.
51:32
And I know these failings are occurring and to also have an
51:35
opportunity to present an alternative model having spent
51:38
so many years in it and experienced it and request
51:43
obviously remedy as fast as possible because there's a small
51:47
boy. And mum separated.
51:50
Separated and this little boy is having a big impact on a lot, a
51:53
lot of children. Yeah, absolutely.
51:56
And it's all positive. Absolutely positive and the the
52:03
the pressure on that committee would be more positive if there
52:06
were more people doing it. So I think you're a little bit
52:09
disappointed to see how few organisations had actually
52:13
submitted. I was obviously I could only
52:15
view the public submissions and Shearer.
52:22
I was very pleased to see Shearer were there and I was
52:26
very, very disappointed to see that there wasn't every other
52:30
organization such as Women's Aid, NSPCC, any other major
52:34
organisations speaking out, speaking out and submitting
52:38
reports that I thought that was really disappointing.
52:41
And it makes you then feel, well, you know, you're not
52:43
alone, but it feels very, you feel very disappointed that more
52:49
people aren't being more proactive, that there's more
52:51
people stuck in the problem. But rather like the children's
52:54
stories. Well, OK, the aliens have come
52:56
and taken all our pets. Well, what are we going to do
52:58
about it? We can't stay in the problem.
53:00
We need to do something. And when there's an opportunity
53:03
like that to submit a report, which yes, it can be difficult
53:07
to write about the circumstances, it's still an
53:10
opportunity to take. And with the international
53:17
interest we're getting, with the national interest we're getting,
53:22
the government admitting there are failing the family courts or
53:25
these external bodies recognising that the family
53:29
courts are failing. Yeah.
53:31
How, as a mother, do I trust that I'm actually going to get
53:33
remedy through the family court? My answer to that is, is you.
53:38
You can't because you don't know.
53:40
But the thing that I am absolutely convinced of, and I
53:44
have we talked about this earlier on today, is, is it
53:47
comes down to numbers. Because we know thousands and
53:51
thousands of families are affected, but you're not seeing
53:54
thousands and thousands of people standing up to present
53:59
their evidence and put pressure on the family court system and
54:02
the government. So what, what what's needed is
54:06
for each and every family that's been affected by this, every
54:10
mum, every dad has got to bring their story forward so that
54:16
it's, it's the evidence is irrefutable of what's going on
54:20
in the family courts. And then, then you can hold them
54:23
to account. Then you can hold the government
54:24
to account. But it's a numbers game.
54:27
And unfortunately, as you know, when you're in the real battle
54:32
and it's very dark and it's depressing and scary, as you,
54:37
you've said. And then parents are hiding in
54:40
the shadows. They're not standing up to tell
54:42
their story. I think we've made a bit of we
54:46
the UK column has made a bit of progress in this because we've
54:50
successfully demonstrated that that mums and dads can tell
54:55
their story in a way that they don't get caught.
54:58
But the family called secrecy rules.
55:01
So we absolutely know how they can bring their personal
55:05
testimony, their evidence forward.
55:08
But you know, if 10 people say the courts are rotten, OK.
55:12
But if 10,000 say it's rotten, then something starts to happen.
55:17
And of course the other bit that comes with the numbers is you
55:20
can point a finger at the media and say thousands and thousands
55:25
of people are being hurt and you're not reporting it.
55:28
Whereas the BBC consistently fails to report these cases
55:33
because they, you know, they, they either don't want to or
55:37
they use the excuse of secrecy in the family courts.
55:41
Surely now they've mitted their own failure there is an
55:46
opportunity and it's probably back to what Gabriel said is you
55:49
use all our skills and I can only imagine and your skills
55:53
might be different to my skills, but you just use them all.
55:55
And I can only imagine that somebody listening would be
56:02
thinking what on earth is stopping this mother and her son
56:06
seeing each other because at times we're in the same time.
56:09
We're in Cheltenham, less than a mile apart, less than a mile
56:12
apart, sitting on FaceTime. But you're not allowed to go
56:15
near him. I've been threatened with arrest
56:18
but when I've asked on what grounds, there's never any
56:21
grounds they will even deny having contacted me.
56:25
Gabriel lives under the threat from social services that should
56:28
he see me, courts and police will be involved.
56:31
Yeah, which is which is psychological pressure on
56:34
Gabriel. Yet we know in May that the
56:36
Police and Crime Commissioner in Cheltenham wrote a report
56:39
admitting that Gloucestershire Police had failed children
56:43
protection audit. You've had police cars stopping
56:48
your father, was it? Three police cars at Christmas
56:51
time pulled my dad's car over, looking for me to arrest me.
56:56
I wasn't in the car. My mother, who'd not long had a
56:59
head injury, was in the car. They knew that my mother had had
57:03
a head injury six months before. Was not obviously not well.
57:08
I telephoned the police. You're looking for me?
57:11
On what ground? No.
57:12
No, no, no, no, no. You're looking for me. 3 police
57:15
cars just pulled my dad over. No, no, no, no, no.
57:17
We're not looking for you. No.
57:18
This is my date of birth. I even emailed the police
57:21
constable that I had the e-mail address of.
57:24
No response. Yeah.
57:25
So I'm threatened and threatened and threatened.
57:27
But given what we've experienced, I can now no longer
57:30
trust what's going on in the. Would you arrest me?
57:35
On what grounds? Because you appear to have no
57:36
grounds. Yeah, but yet we live with that
57:39
threat and Gabriel is constantly carrying that threat to protect
57:42
himself and to protect me. Yeah.
57:44
But you've, Kate, you, you've come through so much of that
57:49
because all of this process, the story, this storytelling has
57:54
absolutely strengthened you. And you've got something very
57:57
important now, which is public profile.
58:00
I think the thing you have to do is I can't.
58:02
I can't fight. It's a very sort of.
58:04
You are fighting. Came from me.
58:08
I put myself back in the boat. So when I'm back in a boat, you
58:12
point and go and you keep going. So doing something like this or
58:15
like keep just saying again going Gabe, I said use all your
58:17
schools. It creates focus, so I'm not
58:20
trying to fight something I can't fight.
58:21
I've now got focus. We're doing something
58:23
constructive and we can. Right.
58:25
Yeah. So I'd take that point.
58:26
It's a different attitude. Right.
58:29
And I, I understand because that's from the inside out, but
58:32
looking from the outside looking in what you are doing is giving
58:38
you personal pro profile and you definitely feel better about
58:42
yourself. And this is, this is OK, this is
58:44
for children, but it's very professional and you are making
58:48
a mockery of the system which says these are my words, you're
58:52
an unfit mother. This just makes a mockery of the
58:56
whole process. So you've started something
58:59
which is just brilliant and it's going international and that's
59:04
now out there. They can't take it away from
59:07
you. I can only hope that.
59:14
As many people say, Gabriel and I have gone this this through
59:17
this for a reason that's bigger than the two of us, because it
59:20
has been incredibly difficult for both of us.
59:22
And I thank all the sports and good things that I and others
59:25
put into him beforehand. And I hope that perhaps what we
59:32
are achieving and the empowerment that other teachers
59:36
and children are receiving through this process and the
59:40
credibility we're raising it exposes the absolute inversion
59:46
within the family courts in this.
59:47
Country inversion of justice. It's actually an inversion of
59:51
morality as well, because it's disgraceful.
59:53
What's? What's going?
59:54
On You enter Another world, and I can only best describe it as
59:57
like Kafka's. It's like the post office.
59:59
They described it as an Orwellian Kafka's nightmare
1:00:01
where you enter the Trial and it does nothing.
1:00:04
Makes sense? Two last points, Cakes, I think
1:00:09
it's been really excellent discussion and we we've covered
1:00:12
a lot of ground. So one, what would you say to
1:00:16
other mums out there that are they're in a similar position
1:00:19
that they've lost their children, they're separated from
1:00:22
from their children, they're alienated from their children.
1:00:26
What would you say to them as a? You get yourself out of bed
1:00:31
every single morning and whether it's if whether that I recite to
1:00:36
myself every morning or whether it's prayer, you say something
1:00:41
positive. So you get yourself out of bed
1:00:43
and you start with just something positive.
1:00:45
It's going for a walk around the block.
1:00:47
The other thing I've my To Do List now gets longer, but I did
1:00:51
earlier on was just aim to achieve one thing a day.
1:00:54
So on my task list, I would just look at what's the one thing I
1:00:56
have to do today. So at the end of every day you
1:00:59
win, you've won the day. All you're trying to do is win
1:01:02
that day. And even if that win is just
1:01:04
going for a walk around the block, you've won the day.
1:01:07
And the other thing, we're all, we are all guilty of the fact
1:01:11
that we let days escape us when in fact, we should be living our
1:01:15
lives one day at a time to make that day as important as and
1:01:20
enjoyable as we can. So that, that fits a, a sort of
1:01:24
bigger logic as well, doesn't it?
1:01:26
It's not just because you're having a battle with the family
1:01:29
court, we've lost your child. It's the fact that all of us
1:01:33
should be using every minute of every day for the best we
1:01:37
possibly can, isn't it? You've got to fill that
1:01:41
unforgiving minutes, haven't you, with a 62nd run?
1:01:43
Yeah, last thing. So here you are with me in UK
1:01:49
column Studio 2. What little message would you
1:01:53
like to give Gabriel? You're braver and more
1:02:03
courageous than most grown men. And they didn't give you your
1:02:13
name because it means messenger of God, boy, the power of your
1:02:20
voice and the power of your name.
1:02:24
We pray of impact. Brilliant.