Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / The Great Last Days Apostasy | JB Hixson

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The Great Last Days Apostasy | JB Hixson · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast. Welcome
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Speaker 1: to the podcast today, everyone, Molligan's us here with doctor J. B. Hickson. Welcome, JB.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I always love talking with you. Mondo.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we are here, which I think to talk about
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Speaker 1: something that I think everybody in our listeners will well know.
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Speaker 1: And you have a new book out, the grace Let,
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Speaker 1: The Great Last Day's Apost to see how the American
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Speaker 1: Church is falling away. And before we get to that,
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Speaker 1: I want to remind everybody of a couple things. Of course,
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Speaker 1: you know, we'll do it in chronological order. Talk about
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Speaker 1: our upcoming conference in Georgia where you and I are
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Speaker 1: going to be together.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are so excited to have Mondo be one
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Speaker 2: of the speakers at our first ever NBW Ministries hosted conference.
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Speaker 2: It's a one day event on a Saturday, March twenty second,
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Speaker 2: right before the big Prophecy Watchers conference. And so if
0:53
Speaker 2: folks are coming to Prophecy Watchers, if your schedule allows,
0:56
Speaker 2: come a little early and join us in North Georgia.
0:58
Speaker 2: It's about fifty miles north of the Atlanta Airport in
1:01
Speaker 2: Flowery Branch, Georgia. We've got you me, Don Perkins, Dave Reagan,
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Speaker 2: and Nathan Jones. So quite the lineup and really excited
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Speaker 2: about all the topics that we're going to be covering there.
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Speaker 2: I'll be talking a little bit more about the new book.
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Speaker 2: You're going to be talking about the Ten Kings Democracy,
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Speaker 2: Yes for that very popular yep. So folks can get
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Speaker 2: more details about that at not by Works dot org.
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Speaker 2: Tickets are still on sale. Great at one day event,
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Speaker 2: really looking forward to it.
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Speaker 1: Is there going to be any live stream there at all?
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Speaker 1: Or is it just there will be?
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Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, are going to live stream and so you
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Speaker 2: can get the details with that on the website as well.
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Speaker 1: Awesome. And then right after that, I mean just a
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Speaker 1: few days later, I'll be coming back on Sunday and
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Speaker 1: getting ready to head again to meet you again in Orlando.
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Speaker 1: So if you guys are interesting coming to Florida March
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Speaker 1: twenty seven through thirtieth, you can go to profcywatchers dot com,
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Speaker 1: scroll down and looking for the banner about our Orlando conference.
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Speaker 1: I think we have twenty one to twenty two speakers there,
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Speaker 1: you know, forty five messages and if you can't make it,
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Speaker 1: there is a live streaming option as well, which you
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Speaker 1: get an opportunity to have a whole year to look
2:08
Speaker 1: to look and watch all the videos and in conversations.
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Speaker 1: I love the you know, having these conferences. You know,
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Speaker 1: we try to have two a year, but it is
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Speaker 1: there's so many things happening so fast, and it's such
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Speaker 1: a it's such a good opportunity to for people to
2:26
Speaker 1: stay updated.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm a little worried about it actually
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Speaker 2: because you know, one of the times we were at
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Speaker 2: Promacy Watchers, that's when the Hamas attack happened and then
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Speaker 2: damask Us fell. It's like every time you host a conference,
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Speaker 2: prophetically significant world event happens.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely And I'm going to be at the Orlando I'm
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Speaker 1: gonna be live streaming with Tom Hughes, who will be
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Speaker 1: in Israel at the time. And he couldn't make it.
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Speaker 1: I said, well, it's still still live stream, so that'll
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Speaker 1: be that'll be good to hear all what's happening over there.
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Speaker 1: So anyways, join us again Prophecywatchers dot Com for the conference.
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Speaker 1: But your new book, The Last the Great Last Days Aposeesy,
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Speaker 1: how the American Church is falling away? This to me.
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Speaker 1: This is such a timely topic, and you know, for
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Speaker 1: those listening, I always tend to think in terms of
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Speaker 1: evidence for the last days and the end of the age.
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Speaker 1: I like that phrase better. But are you know we
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Speaker 1: have Israel, we have other things that all reveal a
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Speaker 1: lot of things. But so kind of give it the premise,
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Speaker 1: I think I'll destroy it out there. I think the
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Speaker 1: premise of this book really is for Timothy four one, right,
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Speaker 1: I would imagine, and so kind of talk about that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. I think this is one of the
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Speaker 2: most forgotten signs of the times, or at least maybe
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Speaker 2: the least talked about or focused on by Bible prophecy teachers.
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Speaker 2: We see the stage being set externally, geopolitically, economically, all
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Speaker 2: kinds of things happening with the Luciferian elite, kind of
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Speaker 2: setting the stage for ultimately the anti Christ and false profit.
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Speaker 2: But I think we're less inclined to look inside our
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Speaker 2: steepled buildings, through the stained glass windows and say what's
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Speaker 2: the state of the church. And the Bible is very
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Speaker 2: clear that the closer we get to the Lord's return,
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Speaker 2: the further the Church will depart from him. It's the
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Speaker 2: great Last Days apostasy, and so yeah, first tim of
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Speaker 2: the four to one is a key kind of springboard passage.
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Speaker 2: There are several others that I deal with in chapter
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Speaker 2: one that make the case for, as you know, theologically,
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Speaker 2: for an end time's apostasy and it's happening. And I
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Speaker 2: think there are multiple reasons why this is an important topic,
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Speaker 2: not only just as a sign of the times, but
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Speaker 2: also for believers to do a little self evaluation and
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Speaker 2: look in the mirror and realize, am I part of
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Speaker 2: the falling away? Or am I part of you know,
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Speaker 2: the remnant? And am I prepared for what comes next?
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Speaker 2: I mean, it's getting harder and harder to find a
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Speaker 2: good Bible teaching church that's clear on the Gospel, that's
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Speaker 2: teaching Bible prophecy, and you know, this book addresses sort
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Speaker 2: of some of those some of those things. There's an
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Speaker 2: appendix at the back of the book where I give
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Speaker 2: seven non negotiables when choosing a local church, and I
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Speaker 2: think that's going to be really helpful for people the
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Speaker 2: more churches fall away.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a super super practical question, and
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Speaker 1: I mean, no doubt I'm in your pastor, and for
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Speaker 1: people that I hear it quite often, in the sense
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Speaker 1: that even people will write into the ministry and be like, hey,
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Speaker 1: I'm move into a new area, or can you look
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Speaker 1: in my area and can you give any recommendations about
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Speaker 1: a church? And of course it's very challenging at times
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Speaker 1: because even if you read the statement of faith of
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Speaker 1: a particular church, they might not be following it, so
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Speaker 1: that's not a guarantee. Or who knows that maybe it's
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Speaker 1: been there for thirty years and no one's even looked
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Speaker 1: at it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can use doctoral statements to rule out, but
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Speaker 2: not necessarily to rule in.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
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Speaker 2: And the other thing is there's a lot of church
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Speaker 2: lists out there, but they tend to focus on a
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Speaker 2: particular issue. Like there's a list of churches that are
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Speaker 2: teaching Bible prophecy. Well, that's that's fine, But what if
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Speaker 2: they're Calvinist or which is you know that happened, yeah,
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Speaker 2: or what if they're liberal or what if they're not
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Speaker 2: clear on the Gospel. So that's why we put that
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Speaker 2: list together seven non negotiables, And like you, we get
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Speaker 2: that question a lot. What I'll tell people is, you know,
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Speaker 2: because I'm not I don't have the time to be
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Speaker 2: people's church searcher, you know. But I'll say, if you
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Speaker 2: find a church that that that you think might be
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Speaker 2: an option, send me their website and I'll look it
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Speaker 2: over and see if I see any red flags myself.
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Speaker 2: Not that I'm the ultimate arbitrary, Yeah, I can help
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Speaker 2: you that way.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not. I mean the hard part is,
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Speaker 1: you know, again times you can't sit there and listen
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Speaker 1: to ten sermons and then make a decision. You know
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Speaker 1: that that would that's just that's really difficult. Before we
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Speaker 1: move on, talk a little bit about of course, you know,
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Speaker 1: we're offering the book here at Prophecy Watchers, but if
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Speaker 1: you also have an opportunity for people to read the
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Speaker 1: preface and get a little bit more interest in the book, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: but I want.
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Speaker 2: To learn more about it. They can just go to
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Speaker 2: the Great Last Days Apostasey dot org the Great Last
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Speaker 2: Days Apostacy dot org, and there we've set up where
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Speaker 2: the whole preface is there where I kind of introduced
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Speaker 2: the topic, explain my heart as to why I felt
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Speaker 2: led to write this about this, and then we give
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Speaker 2: the whole table of content, which if you've read my stuff,
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Speaker 2: you know that my table of Contents is very organized,
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Speaker 2: and I have subsections in each chapter where you can
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Speaker 2: kind of get a sense for what topics I'm going
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Speaker 2: to be addressing in the book. So it's just a
7:11
Speaker 2: way to kind of familiarize yourself with it. And if
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Speaker 2: you think it's something that would interest you, then come
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Speaker 2: back to propsywatchers dot com and pick up a copy.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's great. We got them in stock, and
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Speaker 1: I mean brand new, hot off the press. So let's
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Speaker 1: jump in here for a minute, because again I have
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Speaker 1: the table contents right in front of me, which, again,
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Speaker 1: as you said, I appreciate all the detail. You know,
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Speaker 1: the let's talk about the word itself because and the
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Speaker 1: aposta see so as with anything you see the word
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Speaker 1: apostle to see in the Bible, you see the word
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Speaker 1: departing from the faith. And yet you give a great
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Speaker 1: nuanced understanding of this, because I think if we don't
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Speaker 1: we some people just tend to be simplistic. And yet,
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Speaker 1: as we know, theological precision is sometimes very nuanced. It's
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Speaker 1: not as simple as people might want it, and I
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Speaker 1: think that's important because it does answer a lot of questions.
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Speaker 1: So let's jump in right there kind of tell us
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Speaker 1: how you started.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think one of the key passages is
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Speaker 2: First Timothy four to one, as we said, where we
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Speaker 2: read the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times
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Speaker 2: some will depart from the faith. Well, departing from the faith,
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Speaker 2: that's apostasy right, latter times there, I believe I take
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Speaker 2: that as the latter part of the Last Days. So
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Speaker 2: in scripture, the Last Days is used in several context
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Speaker 2: to refer to the present Church Age, which if you
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Speaker 2: look at a panoramic view of God's plan of the ages, indeed,
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Speaker 2: the Church Age is really the final age, the last
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Speaker 2: days before the consummation of the kingdom comes, and so
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Speaker 2: it's called the last days. But I take Paul to
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Speaker 2: be saying here that because you know, he says in
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Speaker 2: his second letter that in Second Timothy three thirteen evil
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Speaker 2: men and impostors are going to get worse and worse.
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Speaker 2: He says in Second Timothy four he says the time
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Speaker 2: will come when they will not endure sound doctrine. So
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Speaker 2: he doesn't seem to be in these passages referring to
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Speaker 2: the Last Days as a whole, but to a progression
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Speaker 2: or a digression. I should say that that gets worse.
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Speaker 1: I like the phrase, as you said, the end of
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Speaker 1: I like the end of the age because Jesus uses
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Speaker 1: that phraseology the disciples do, and the end of the age.
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Speaker 1: I'll be with you until the end of the age.
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Speaker 1: And so because what I hear is I'm glad you
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Speaker 1: said it is there'll be those that are maybe non
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Speaker 1: dispensational or non futurist, and they're like, yeah, what they
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Speaker 1: don't tell you in their in their way, What those
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Speaker 1: dispensations will tell you is that the last days began
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Speaker 1: with Jesus' ascension, and and it's the Church age and
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Speaker 1: you just said it, so we are saying it. But
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Speaker 1: I and I say, well, that's right, absolutely, I agree
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Speaker 1: with that. But what about the end of the age. Okay,
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Speaker 1: that's a different phraseology, which is not equivalent to the
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Speaker 1: last days.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, last days and end times totally. Yes, end times
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Speaker 2: refers to everything from the rapture forward, that future as
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Speaker 2: yet unfulfilled prophecy that will take place in the same
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Speaker 2: way that all the other prophecies took place. Literally, last
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Speaker 2: days is is the present age. But yeah, you're right,
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Speaker 2: I mean, and that goes back to your question of
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Speaker 2: defining terms because you hear the term apostasy bandied around
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Speaker 2: in mainstream denominational circles, in Roman Catholic circles, in different circles,
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Speaker 2: and it means different things to different people. So in
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Speaker 2: the first chapter, I really take the time to explain
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Speaker 2: how the Bible uses the term. We've got to use
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Speaker 2: Bible words with Bible definitions, not Bible words with cultural definitions, exactly.
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Speaker 2: And so you know, the idea here is that in
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Speaker 2: its simplest form, just departing from the faith, departing from Christianity,
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Speaker 2: departing from the corpus of Christian truth, just drifting away
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Speaker 2: from the Lord, right, the Lord of the Church. And
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Speaker 2: so that happens. And so I make the point, and
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Speaker 2: you give several scriptures to back it up, that it's
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Speaker 2: possible for true Christians to depart from the faith. I mean,
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Speaker 2: I don't recommend it. It's never good, it doesn't end well.
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Speaker 2: It's a serious discipline involved there. The Book of Hebrews
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Speaker 2: has written to some Christians in the sixties AD that
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Speaker 2: were Jewish Christians that were considering doing that, and some
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Speaker 2: already had, they had already forsaken the assemble on themselves together.
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Speaker 2: They had cast away their confidence, and they were for
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Speaker 2: reasons of pressure and persecution. They were saying, I don't
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Speaker 2: want to have anything to do with Christianity anymore, and
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Speaker 2: they were going to have to suffer some discipline for that.
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Speaker 2: He presents with whom the Lord loves, the disciplines and
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Speaker 2: loss of rewards and those types of things.
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Speaker 1: So let me just stop you to clarify. So what
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Speaker 1: I'm hearing, and this is helpful for people. So in
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Speaker 1: this sense, the parting of the faith is different. It's
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Speaker 1: it happens, but it's different, and it's not the same
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Speaker 1: as someone losing their salvationslutely, So have those side by
11:45
Speaker 1: side so that someone saying, well did he just say that?
11:48
Speaker 1: You know whatever?
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Speaker 2: So so, first of all, a believer can never lose
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Speaker 2: their salvation, right, you get eternal life the moment you
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Speaker 2: believe the gospel, and if it.
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Speaker 1: Was true, a true from I always say, I don't
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Speaker 1: care what somebody professes. I mean, I don't know the heart.
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Speaker 1: Right they profess to know God, but in their worst
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Speaker 1: they deny it. But from God's perspective, if someone is
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Speaker 1: truly saved based on their faith, right there and they're
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Speaker 1: asking and God says, hey, I know their heart. They're saved. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So let's think.
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Speaker 2: If faith meets the Gospel, the result is eternal life.
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Speaker 2: Every time. It's not faith plus works or faith plus
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Speaker 2: wait and see, or faith plus evidence. It's faith faith
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Speaker 2: alone in Christ's alone. More than one hundred and sixty times,
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Speaker 2: the New Testament alone conditions eternal life upon a faith
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Speaker 2: alone in Christ alone. I was trying to see if
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Speaker 2: I put that appendix in the back of this book.
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Speaker 2: I don't think I did. Yeah I did, so you know,
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Speaker 2: the first appendix in the back of the Apostasy book
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Speaker 2: is lists one hundred and sixty verses in the New
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Speaker 2: Testament the condition eternal life upon faith alone, period. So
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Speaker 2: if you've if you've done the one thing the Bible
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Speaker 2: says you must do to have eternal life, you've got
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Speaker 2: eternal life. You don't get eternal life when you die.
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Speaker 2: You get eternal life when you believe. And so you
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Speaker 2: have eternal life now. And if it could be lost,
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Speaker 2: it's got the worst name you could ever give something.
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Speaker 2: Really chose a bad name. But Jesus said, I give
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Speaker 2: you eternal life and you shall never perish, period, full stop.
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Speaker 2: So we're not talking about losing your salvation. But it
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Speaker 2: is possible for Christians to drift away from the Lord.
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Speaker 2: We do it every day on smaller levels, and so
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Speaker 2: it's just a matter of degree. And the writer of
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Speaker 2: Hebrews comes along, and he's writing to a group of
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Speaker 2: again first century Jewish Christians who, because of persecution, worth
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Speaker 2: thinking of doing that. And he says, for example, do
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Speaker 2: not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. Most
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Speaker 2: people are familiar with the famous passage on not forsaking
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Speaker 2: the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some is.
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Speaker 2: Some had already done it, I'd said I'm done. Judaism
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Speaker 2: was still a safe haven at that time in the
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Speaker 2: Roman Empire, so you could be associated with Judaism and
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Speaker 2: be safe. If you were found to be part of
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Speaker 2: the way, it was burned at the stake, or worse,
13:52
Speaker 2: Nero had some horrible ways of killing people. But he
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Speaker 2: says right before that that verse verse twenty five is
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Speaker 2: sandwiched contecht actually between two admonitions not to fall away.
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Speaker 2: He says, in verse twenty three, hold fast the confession
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Speaker 2: of your hope without wavering, because he who promises faithful
14:09
Speaker 2: not talking about promising eternal life. That's a current possession.
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Speaker 2: That's not a promise, that's you have. It's you're a now,
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Speaker 2: a child of God, born again. Names written in the
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Speaker 2: Lamb's Book of Life. But what it is talking about
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Speaker 2: is the promise of co reigning with Christ and receiving
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Speaker 2: rewards and all of the blessings that earlier in the
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Speaker 2: Hebrews he uses the illustration of the children of Israel
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Speaker 2: in chapter four. So a lot of people mistakenly think
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Speaker 2: the promise Land is heaven, and that's a mistake because
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Speaker 2: remember Moses didn't get into the promise land, but he's
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Speaker 2: in heaven today. So the promise then was the blessing.
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Speaker 2: And for those who believed, which was not the first generation,
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Speaker 2: but they got in. But the generation that grumbled, a
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Speaker 2: complain and had lack of faith, God said, fine, you're
14:55
Speaker 2: not going to get to enjoy the.
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Speaker 1: They got disciplined, they got the death penalty.
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Speaker 2: That was physics exactly. And that's what Hebrews is all about.
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Speaker 2: And that's just one example that we give in the book.
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Speaker 2: What Paul talks about others a Hymenaeus and Alexander if Alitus,
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Speaker 2: others who are believers, but they you know, kind of
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Speaker 2: drifted too far, and it comes a point where you know,
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Speaker 2: you would then fall into the category broadly speaking of
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Speaker 2: an apostate. So you can be an apostate and be
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Speaker 2: a believer, but you can also be an apostate and
15:25
Speaker 2: not be a believer. And so you know, you need
15:27
Speaker 2: to make sure which one we're talking about. We're not
15:29
Speaker 2: suggesting that if a Christian falls away, they're going to Hell,
15:33
Speaker 2: or they lose their salvation, or they never were saved.
15:35
Speaker 2: We're just saying falling away is a serious matter and
15:39
Speaker 2: it's something that no believer should do, and many believers
15:43
Speaker 2: are doing. And that's the reason we wrote the book.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so here we are again the Spirit is
15:48
Speaker 1: saying expressly, right, you know that here we are at
15:51
Speaker 1: the end in the Latter Times, that this departure is
15:55
Speaker 1: going to take place. And so you then you so this,
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Speaker 1: you kind of provide a definition, which is great, and
16:03
Speaker 1: then you kind of shift to say, well, let's talk
16:04
Speaker 1: about what that departure looks like in different categories. Yes,
16:08
Speaker 1: and before we go though, you know, in the sense
16:11
Speaker 1: of chapter two there which we can't stainly do all
16:14
Speaker 1: of it, but just some things that come out of
16:16
Speaker 1: it is you have there the remnant principle. Kind of
16:20
Speaker 1: help us let me understand what you mean by that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the first two chapters, of course, as we
16:25
Speaker 2: talk about we define what it means to fall away.
16:27
Speaker 2: But then you need to define the church. What is
16:29
Speaker 2: the church supposed to look like when it's fulfilling its
16:32
Speaker 2: biblical mandate and following Christ and expressing its love for
16:36
Speaker 2: Christ and making a difference in this sinstricken world. And
16:39
Speaker 2: so I take some time to talk about a little ecclesiology.
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Speaker 2: We might stay in there, but then I point out
16:44
Speaker 2: at the end of that chapter the remnant principle, and
16:46
Speaker 2: that is that throughout human history, it seems like God
16:50
Speaker 2: always works in the remnant. It was Moses, I mean,
16:54
Speaker 2: it was Noah and his eight family that got on
16:56
Speaker 2: the arc. Right, It was a lot and his family,
16:59
Speaker 2: not the whole city. You could look at it again
17:02
Speaker 2: and again and again, and certainly the life of Jesus,
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Speaker 2: it was eleven of his disciples that change the world,
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Speaker 2: not the whole culture. So it was a smaller number
17:10
Speaker 2: that cried Hosanna, Hosanna than that was that cried crucify
17:13
Speaker 2: and crucified. So generally speaking, there's two implications of this.
17:17
Speaker 2: On the one hand, it ought to give you pause
17:19
Speaker 2: if you find yourself jumping on a Christian or evangelical bandwagon.
17:24
Speaker 2: At least you ought to say, hmm, is this really
17:27
Speaker 2: represent where God is and what God is doing in
17:29
Speaker 2: the movement of God? Or could this be a big
17:31
Speaker 2: head fake? But secondly, it's just a general principle that
17:34
Speaker 2: don't be discouraged. Don't have that Elijah mentality. Oh I'm
17:38
Speaker 2: the only one, you know, because that's the way God works.
17:42
Speaker 2: And in fact, the remnant principle won't be reversed. And
17:47
Speaker 2: I think this gets into the parables of the Kingdom
17:49
Speaker 2: with the mustard seed and those, because I don't think
17:51
Speaker 2: it'll be reversed until the Kingdom starts. And at that moment,
17:54
Speaker 2: when Christ comes back and we come back with him,
17:57
Speaker 2: that'll be the first time and really since the guard
18:00
Speaker 2: that everyone on earth is a believer.
18:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, to start the millennial period, right, everybody's a believer,
18:05
Speaker 1: and of course there's children that are born and later
18:07
Speaker 1: that they they have to get saved, so they're not
18:09
Speaker 1: you're not born a believer. But at that moment, can
18:12
Speaker 1: you imagine it's like, Okay, and I think that's also
18:14
Speaker 1: one of the testimonies to the u to the sadness
18:17
Speaker 1: of the millennium, because you get to the end and
18:19
Speaker 1: there's other rebellion, you're like, man, this all started really great?
18:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, how could that happen?
18:23
Speaker 1: Right? Yeah?
18:24
Speaker 2: No, I know, I mean it's uh, you know, Jerry
18:26
Speaker 2: Follwell would be really proud when the kingdom starts because
18:29
Speaker 2: with a moral majority, Yeah, we actually finally have a
18:33
Speaker 2: majority of people to in fact all of them unanimity.
18:36
Speaker 1: That's for sure. That's great. So you know, the you
18:40
Speaker 1: one of the things I like here you get into
18:43
Speaker 1: again different ways of what falling away or what apostily
18:47
Speaker 1: looks like in categories, and you talk about one of
18:50
Speaker 1: the descriptions of looking around at the church, right scatalogic
18:56
Speaker 1: and falling away scatologically, and I think especially in our
18:59
Speaker 1: camp because is you know, we we do this, we
19:03
Speaker 1: do this full time, right, we're eschatologists, you know, and
19:07
Speaker 1: we spent well you're a pastor too, so you have
19:09
Speaker 1: a little broader I mean I used to spend my
19:10
Speaker 1: time like I was teaching Hebrews. Well, you get some
19:13
Speaker 1: eschatology in our Egilatians are just sanctification, right, But now
19:17
Speaker 1: in this world it's one hundred percent eschatology for the
19:20
Speaker 1: most part, for the most part. But so in this
19:23
Speaker 1: camp we come to find out, you know, or some
19:27
Speaker 1: people do, is like, well, wait a minute, not everybody
19:31
Speaker 1: agrees with our eschatology. And so to describe that the
19:35
Speaker 1: falling away eschatologically, yeah.
19:38
Speaker 2: So it's tough to nuance that because people have strong
19:42
Speaker 2: feelings about it, right, And and so what I would
19:45
Speaker 2: start with is, first of all, we're all about grace
19:47
Speaker 2: and BW ministries. You know, we're not here to judge
19:51
Speaker 2: people or to chastise people.
19:53
Speaker 1: I'm not saved by my eschatology.
19:54
Speaker 2: You're not saved by your eschatology. Absolutely, you have been
19:57
Speaker 2: plenty of people in Heaven that didn't believe in the
19:59
Speaker 2: p rapture, right, and as Andy Woods likes to say,
20:02
Speaker 2: if they don't, we'll just explain it to him on
20:04
Speaker 2: the way, right, that's right. So it's absolutely, certainly, you know,
20:09
Speaker 2: the case that you can be a devout believer and
20:12
Speaker 2: be wrong in some areas of your theology. And that
20:15
Speaker 2: is what we're not suggesting here, that people have a
20:17
Speaker 2: non dispensational approach to eschatology. Or apostate. We're not suggesting
20:20
Speaker 2: that at all.
20:21
Speaker 1: That's good, that's a good verification.
20:22
Speaker 2: So what we're saying is that if you look at
20:25
Speaker 2: Church history as a whole, it's about trends. And Paul
20:28
Speaker 2: said in the passage we quoted in the latter times,
20:32
Speaker 2: the latter part of the last stage, we're going to
20:33
Speaker 2: see more of this. And so obviously we believe, based
20:38
Speaker 2: on a literal, grammatical understanding of scripture, that the early Church,
20:40
Speaker 2: the Apostles, and the early Church were dispensationalist, right, they
20:43
Speaker 2: believed in a pre triviational return of Christ. As time
20:47
Speaker 2: went on, especially when you get to the time of
20:49
Speaker 2: Origin and then Augustine for sure, you started to see
20:52
Speaker 2: a divergence into you know, with Roman Catholicism and this
20:56
Speaker 2: kingdom now concept and this you know, either a millennial
20:59
Speaker 2: or post millennial viewpoints. Uh and and that dominated the
21:04
Speaker 2: Middle Ages. And then with the Reformation, when people could
21:07
Speaker 2: start reading their Bibles again on their own without fear
21:10
Speaker 2: of being beheaded, then they started to the spait of God,
21:14
Speaker 2: used the word of God to say, no, you know,
21:16
Speaker 2: there's a distinction between Israel and the Church. There's a
21:19
Speaker 2: return for Christ in the air to rescue the church,
21:21
Speaker 2: and then there's a later return all the way to
21:22
Speaker 2: the earth to established kingdom. They started putting the dots
21:24
Speaker 2: together themselves. And so but meanwhile, as an understanding, dispensational
21:30
Speaker 2: understanding of scripture began to grow, so too did all
21:33
Speaker 2: these other aberran views. So you had views like preterism
21:37
Speaker 2: and you know mid tribulation and pre wrath tribulation, and
21:41
Speaker 2: you know post tribulation, and you know post millennialism, which
21:46
Speaker 2: have essentially died out after World War Two, but.
21:50
Speaker 1: It's sort of resurfaced feeling very positive.
21:54
Speaker 2: I mean, but you could see how in church history,
21:57
Speaker 2: with the Industrial Revolution and the Enlightenment and and there's
22:00
Speaker 2: all the optimism optimists there, people would be like, oh,
22:03
Speaker 2: maybe we misunderstood this. Maybe we're going to make the
22:04
Speaker 2: world better and better and better, and then Christ is
22:06
Speaker 2: going to come back to climax. But that went away
22:09
Speaker 2: after the World Wars, and but of course it resurfaced
22:11
Speaker 2: in our day with people like Pat robertson, dominion theology, reconstructionism,
22:17
Speaker 2: new Apostolic Reformation, those types of movements which I address
22:21
Speaker 2: in a separate section because I deal with falling away
22:25
Speaker 2: politically but so, yeah, the falling away aschoologically is just
22:29
Speaker 2: a matter of degree. We're seeing more and more people
22:32
Speaker 2: who used to have really no interest in Bible prophecy
22:36
Speaker 2: are now being sort of swept up in this tide
22:39
Speaker 2: of what we would believe is false teaching based on scripture.
22:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, false teaching comes in a variety
22:45
Speaker 1: of ways. And it's I see that too that you
22:49
Speaker 1: have you have people throw around the label like I
22:55
Speaker 1: had somebody online someone pointed it out to me. I
22:58
Speaker 1: was like, I was in a because I felt because
23:04
Speaker 1: I felt that there was a rescue or you know,
23:06
Speaker 1: in all of that discourse, Okay, lots of different viewpoints
23:10
Speaker 1: on that, but because I was over here in thinking
23:13
Speaker 1: that there was a rescue there, I was under the
23:17
Speaker 1: label of false teacher. And then over on this side
23:21
Speaker 1: was all the the people who were right, you know,
23:23
Speaker 1: and the way that it was phrased. And then I
23:26
Speaker 1: was like, wow, man, I'm like, like I really get
23:28
Speaker 1: the label false teacher. And then over on the other
23:31
Speaker 1: side they they had listened there and they had fucking
23:35
Speaker 1: bomb in there. And so I wrote it and I said,
23:37
Speaker 1: I said, hey, I know sees the Yeah, I go, hey,
23:42
Speaker 1: I got his commentary right here. I said, in fact,
23:45
Speaker 1: you look at his Yeshua commentary. He's over in this camp.
23:48
Speaker 1: You know that that sees it. And it was like delete.
23:52
Speaker 1: They didn't even I said, I didn't. I wasn't even
23:55
Speaker 1: defending myself, but I just said, you got you got
23:57
Speaker 1: it wrong on Fructor Well, but I thought, wow, hey,
24:01
Speaker 1: I want fuckt bum over here at least in the
24:03
Speaker 1: false teacher cab. But it was interesting there that you
24:06
Speaker 1: know that that very narrow like there to be avoided
24:12
Speaker 1: at all costs, as if I was the pariah of
24:15
Speaker 1: Satan himself, And I thought, you know, that's really sad.
24:19
Speaker 2: There's no room for that. But I will say, if
24:21
Speaker 2: Arnold Fruchtenbaum and Mono Gonzalez are false teachers, I want.
24:25
Speaker 1: In that time, let me tell you just think, oh
24:28
Speaker 1: my god.
24:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there's a difference between teaching something that is false, which,
24:33
Speaker 2: let's face it, we've all done it.
24:35
Speaker 1: I know I have.
24:36
Speaker 2: This is my fortieth year of ministry. In fact, I
24:39
Speaker 2: dedicate this book to my home church pastor, Brother Billy J.
24:41
Speaker 2: Crosby's still living. He's in his nineties, and he licensed
24:45
Speaker 2: me to the ministry of June seventh, nineteen eighty five.
24:47
Speaker 2: So I'll celebrate forty years this year. Yeah, And if
24:50
Speaker 2: you look back through my notes, which the first half
24:52
Speaker 2: or first ten or twelve years were all physical files
24:55
Speaker 2: and a file I don't even know where they are
24:57
Speaker 2: now in the attic somewhere, but on my electronic file,
25:00
Speaker 2: you'll see in my you know, file system, a lot
25:03
Speaker 2: of them. I'll say, you know, James notes old, James
25:06
Speaker 2: notes new. Because I refined my view exactly, it never changed,
25:09
Speaker 2: never find it. But that's just because I at times
25:13
Speaker 2: have taught something that I now realize was wrong doesn't
25:16
Speaker 2: make me a false teacher. False teacher. You can't throw
25:20
Speaker 2: that word around loosely. You have to be the Bible
25:23
Speaker 2: defines who those are, and if they're categorically departing from
25:27
Speaker 2: standards of orthodoxy, key teaching of the deity of Christ,
25:31
Speaker 2: those types, then yes. But someone who interprets the al
25:35
Speaker 2: of it discourse, I mean that's going to make I
25:37
Speaker 2: did a study on this one time, a dispensational history
25:40
Speaker 2: of thought on the all of it discourse. Then you
25:42
Speaker 2: got to throw Walvart in there, pentecost ryory.
25:45
Speaker 1: You know, it's yeah, it's fascinating. So let mean, let's
25:49
Speaker 1: let's you have here, which I think this is as
25:52
Speaker 1: it relates to the church again another category. Uh, is
25:56
Speaker 1: it any surprise, especially in the last year, we've seen
25:58
Speaker 1: a lot of moral failures in the church and God
26:03
Speaker 1: exposing I mean a lot of things. And this is
26:07
Speaker 1: the side of the times, right, yeah? Really? Yeah?
26:09
Speaker 2: I mean you and I remember the eighties and then
26:11
Speaker 2: it seems like we're having another round of that here recently.
26:14
Speaker 2: And again we don't want to judge because, first of all,
26:16
Speaker 2: I totally believe in restoration, absolutely, and I in some
26:20
Speaker 2: of the cases, I know some of the people involved personally,
26:23
Speaker 2: and some of them I know people who know them personally.
26:25
Speaker 2: And I'm hearing the side of the story that you're
26:27
Speaker 2: not hearing in the mainstream media. And so look, you
26:30
Speaker 2: know there, but by the grace of God, go I
26:32
Speaker 2: let's be gracious. But nevertheless, the fact that we are
26:36
Speaker 2: seeing an onslaught of moral failures in the pulpit, I
26:40
Speaker 2: believe as a sign of the times.
26:42
Speaker 1: Let's make it even further where whether it's the pulpit
26:45
Speaker 1: or having drag queens at church.
26:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I talk about that in the fact, Yeah, yeah,
26:48
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's again, you know, total apostasy. Socially,
26:53
Speaker 2: the church has become just a social club essentially, and
26:57
Speaker 2: we are you know, I don't think Jesus is smiling
27:00
Speaker 2: on most of the churches you know these days. It's
27:02
Speaker 2: just it's terrible.
27:03
Speaker 1: Let's unpack that a little bit. In the sense that
27:07
Speaker 1: we see the church, I think is the word church
27:11
Speaker 1: in We have the Biblical definition for sure, but in
27:14
Speaker 1: the culture you know, Christian Scientist Church, you know, the Mormon,
27:20
Speaker 1: Latter day Church, you know, the pc USA, the Methodists,
27:25
Speaker 1: you know, all the Lutheran you know, Evangelical whatever, Lutherans
27:29
Speaker 1: of America, whatever, all these denominations, so they have the
27:32
Speaker 1: word church, and the Bible is not maybe mentioned at all.
27:36
Speaker 1: If it is, you read a Psalm and then you
27:38
Speaker 1: have the drag queen come across, or maybe the drag
27:40
Speaker 1: queen reads the Psalm. You know, yeah, yeah, I.
27:45
Speaker 2: Mean it's uh, we define the word ecclesia church called
27:50
Speaker 2: out group. And when it comes to the church today,
27:53
Speaker 2: the body of Christ, as the Bible describes in the
27:55
Speaker 2: New Testament, that's a unique group of called out people.
27:58
Speaker 2: Not anybody can just claim there a church, but they
28:02
Speaker 2: do I mean, you've got I remember when I was
28:04
Speaker 2: in high school and I was really involved in our
28:07
Speaker 2: Christian club. In fact, I let our Christian club at
28:09
Speaker 2: this big high school. But my best friend was Catholic.
28:12
Speaker 2: And when when I first got to know him, because
28:16
Speaker 2: I moved to this school in this in Houston, Texas
28:19
Speaker 2: and to start high school, so I met him. We
28:22
Speaker 2: became good friends. But when I would talk about the church,
28:25
Speaker 2: I was talking about, you know, the Baptist Church, the
28:27
Speaker 2: same one where I ended up surrendering to the ministry
28:29
Speaker 2: and being licensed. But when he hears church, he thinks
28:32
Speaker 2: the Roman Catholic, Roman Catholic Church, Romanism, right, So you
28:36
Speaker 2: know you have to define your terms. Yeah. I In
28:39
Speaker 2: the chapter that you're talking about their I deal with
28:41
Speaker 2: a lot of examples of how in recent years these
28:44
Speaker 2: mainline denominations have intentionally united Methodists, for example ELCA, as
28:49
Speaker 2: you said, pc USA, how they've had conventions and made
28:54
Speaker 2: decisions officially to depart from you know, the Word of
28:59
Speaker 2: God on things like home sexuality. And then I talk
29:01
Speaker 2: about how some of the remnant the people there, you know,
29:05
Speaker 2: that was a bridge too far, and you know, so
29:07
Speaker 2: they leave and now they're trying to find, you know,
29:10
Speaker 2: churches that you know, even after a whole lifetime of
29:14
Speaker 2: being a part of this denomination, that you know that
29:16
Speaker 2: that are more biblically based.
29:18
Speaker 1: So do you make a distinction, I know, theologically I've
29:20
Speaker 1: heard this, But do you make a distinction between the
29:24
Speaker 1: visible church versus the invisible church? I mean, does that
29:27
Speaker 1: have any value?
29:28
Speaker 2: Well, there's a definite distinction between the local church and
29:31
Speaker 2: the universal church. So the universal Church, of course, is
29:33
Speaker 2: any believer worldwide, who's who's any person's placed their faith
29:37
Speaker 2: in Christ and been born again. The local church is
29:40
Speaker 2: a geographically, you know, tied group of people who come
29:44
Speaker 2: together to fulfill the weekly assembly, this praise, worship, the
29:48
Speaker 2: Lord's Supper, baptism, teaching of the Word, and so forth.
29:53
Speaker 2: But as far as the visible versus the invisible depends
29:58
Speaker 2: how you define that. So how would you define it?
30:00
Speaker 1: No, I guess I would define it. I wouldn't use
30:02
Speaker 1: the word local necessarily, even though that applies. Invisible is
30:05
Speaker 1: that these are the ones, these are the people that
30:08
Speaker 1: have put their faith in trust in Jesus. That God
30:11
Speaker 1: knows that are his right Paul says, God knows that
30:14
Speaker 1: are his verses again, you go down to the church
30:16
Speaker 1: with the name on it and it's visible. It's there,
30:19
Speaker 1: people are in there, the drag Queen's there, and you're like,
30:23
Speaker 1: so again, it doesn't mean that everybody that steps foot
30:26
Speaker 1: in a local church visibly is truly sick for sure.
30:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I would agree with that completely.
30:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:31
Speaker 2: I mean the invisible church again would be what I
30:34
Speaker 2: would call the universal church, people that know the Lord
30:36
Speaker 2: of again Christian and that's a done deal. You're sealed
30:40
Speaker 2: Thefesians one thirteen forty to stealed with the Holy Spirit
30:42
Speaker 2: of promise. It's a done deal. But whether they're in
30:45
Speaker 2: a physical church or not, I would say, you know,
30:48
Speaker 2: the visible church is people who might claim to be
30:51
Speaker 2: a Christian exactly. They might act like it, But like
30:54
Speaker 2: the Pharisees of the first century, whom Jesus had strong
30:56
Speaker 2: words for, he says, you know, they're like, we did
31:00
Speaker 2: this for you, We did this for you, We said
31:02
Speaker 2: all the right prayers, had the big fail actories, wore
31:04
Speaker 2: the right clothes, and Jesus said, what depart from me?
31:07
Speaker 2: I never knew you. So not everybody who claims to
31:09
Speaker 2: be a Christian is a Christian. But there certainly are
31:14
Speaker 2: plenty of Christians out there who are in fact Christians,
31:17
Speaker 2: but they're not.
31:18
Speaker 1: Living for the Lord. Yeah, and so this is the
31:20
Speaker 1: hard part. Where you have those that are you have
31:23
Speaker 1: those that are truly believers that are making choices to
31:29
Speaker 1: distance themselves from the Lord by you know, whatever their
31:31
Speaker 1: actions or their heart and thoughts. You have those that
31:33
Speaker 1: are not saved, but they play church, they profess as
31:37
Speaker 1: you mentioned, many will say to me, Lord Lord on
31:39
Speaker 1: that day and they're going there. Again. These are the
31:41
Speaker 1: drag queens, even though they don't have to be a
31:43
Speaker 1: drag queen. It's just somebody that goes there. And like
31:46
Speaker 1: you mentioned in here, they've become social clubs and so
31:51
Speaker 1: there is again only God knows the heart. But when
31:53
Speaker 1: you look at them, either either doctrinally or in the
31:56
Speaker 1: sense of morally, these decisions that they make you go.
32:00
Speaker 1: And we see this in our in our group, and
32:01
Speaker 1: when I say our camp, in that many of the teachers, uh.
32:05
Speaker 1: And it's really easy to do is to show have
32:09
Speaker 1: a have a to have a presentation and apossey and
32:12
Speaker 1: simply just to go find video clips of the most
32:16
Speaker 1: egregious people claiming to be Christians in the church environment
32:22
Speaker 1: and all the things that they're reading. Again, you have
32:25
Speaker 1: rainbow colors and they're up there. You know, we pray
32:28
Speaker 1: to the Universal Mother, you know, with their with their
32:31
Speaker 1: Bible open, they might be reading a psalm. I mean
32:34
Speaker 1: that's Aposes, right.
32:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You don't have to go to the church to
32:37
Speaker 2: find that and go to the inauguration. But anyway, that's story. No, yeah, absolutely,
32:42
Speaker 2: I mean this is uh. But we just always want
32:46
Speaker 2: to be careful because even in that egregious example, could
32:50
Speaker 2: there be a born again Christian who, for whatever reason
32:54
Speaker 2: happens to find him sitting in that church. Yeah, this
32:57
Speaker 2: is no wholesale assiably, and you hope they would be
32:59
Speaker 2: so convicted they walk out exactly, you know. But you
33:03
Speaker 2: know the thing is, we can quench the spirit, we
33:05
Speaker 2: can grieve the spirit. We cannot walk in the spirit,
33:08
Speaker 2: we can resist the spirit. These are all biblical terms,
33:11
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, when a believer drifts so far that their
33:15
Speaker 2: heart is hardened, they can look pretty much like an unbeliever.
33:19
Speaker 2: But yeah, in terms of the institution and culturally, there's
33:24
Speaker 2: no better word for those churches than aposta. Yeah, they
33:27
Speaker 2: are absolutely aposta.
33:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where I can you know, people
33:30
Speaker 1: ask me all the time and they have is amana,
33:32
Speaker 1: do you think so and so saved? I don't know
33:36
Speaker 1: how do I I'm not God. I mean I take
33:39
Speaker 1: a person's word if they tell me I prayed. I
33:41
Speaker 1: trust that Lord is a savior and and and selvy,
33:45
Speaker 1: you know, I trust it for salvation. I think, okay,
33:48
Speaker 1: I can. This is where I think of James two
33:50
Speaker 1: talking about faith that works is dead. He's like, hey, look,
33:53
Speaker 1: you know you can save something even the demons believe.
33:57
Speaker 1: But he said, I'm going to show you that my
34:00
Speaker 1: words are matching my actions, where someone might have words only,
34:06
Speaker 1: which again I don't know the heart, but I think
34:09
Speaker 1: there is that aspect of faith without works. I think
34:11
Speaker 1: that was his point. But again I go, I don't know.
34:15
Speaker 1: I don't know. If somebody says they're saved, I got
34:17
Speaker 1: what's one thing I can do? I take them at
34:18
Speaker 1: face value.
34:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great way to respond. By
34:21
Speaker 2: the way, we'll have to have a separate podcast sometime
34:23
Speaker 2: about James too, because I take it a little bit
34:24
Speaker 2: differently there contextually. I'd love to get your take on
34:28
Speaker 2: my view there. But absolutely, when someone is living like
34:30
Speaker 2: the devil and claims to be a Christian. The first
34:34
Speaker 2: thing you want to do is just sit down and say, hey,
34:36
Speaker 2: tell me how you came to the world. Yeah, tell
34:38
Speaker 2: me your testimony. And if they go, oh, well, I've
34:41
Speaker 2: always been a Christian, or I was raising a Christian home,
34:43
Speaker 2: or I was a.
34:43
Speaker 1: Bautist decided I needed to change my life, Yeah, yeah,
34:45
Speaker 1: I need anything, then you have reason based on their testimony.
34:49
Speaker 2: Yeah it's behavior, yes, but their testimony to say, you
34:52
Speaker 2: know what I don't. I'm not sure this person knows
34:54
Speaker 2: the Lord. And so then you turn it into an
34:55
Speaker 2: evangelistic opportunity to share the gospel. The gospel is the
34:58
Speaker 2: power of God to salvation. These faith comes with hearing,
35:01
Speaker 2: hearing by the Word of God, so on and so forth.
35:03
Speaker 2: But there are too many I think, you know, conservative
35:08
Speaker 2: Christians who too hastily dismiss anyone as who claims as
35:11
Speaker 2: a Christian but is living in sin. And they may
35:15
Speaker 2: not be a Christian, but it's not because they're living
35:17
Speaker 2: in sin, because believers sin, you know, I mean present
35:22
Speaker 2: company excludes well.
35:23
Speaker 1: Of course, I mean, I mean this is this is
35:26
Speaker 1: this is first time too. If we send we have
35:27
Speaker 1: an advocate. I mean you know at first on one night, right,
35:30
Speaker 1: we can if we send we we confess and yeah, exactly,
35:34
Speaker 1: so you know, and then so this is the the
35:36
Speaker 1: challenge that you have is your book's not meant to
35:40
Speaker 1: go around. I don't think making determinations about being salvation.
35:44
Speaker 1: It's recognizing right as you said, hey, scripture says this
35:47
Speaker 1: is going to happen. When we look out we see, wow,
35:51
Speaker 1: how has this been fulfilled in all these different ways?
35:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so let me close the loop on that
35:55
Speaker 2: part of the discussion, because you're so right, there are
35:58
Speaker 2: people here apostasy and we need to define our terms.
36:01
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I get that hit, you know, discuss
36:04
Speaker 2: that right out of the choot. And so there is
36:06
Speaker 2: some theology in there's some soteriologies. You know, can someone
36:10
Speaker 2: following from the faith but be a believer, yes, you
36:13
Speaker 2: know it is some apostates, non believers, yes, and there
36:16
Speaker 2: are enemies of the Cross and so forth. But that's
36:19
Speaker 2: not the primary purpose of the book. The whole bulk
36:22
Speaker 2: of the book and the pages that follow is all
36:24
Speaker 2: about looking at the trends and recognizing that if Paul said,
36:28
Speaker 2: in the latter days, we're going to see an increase
36:30
Speaker 2: in people falling away from the faith. Is that happening?
36:33
Speaker 2: And I think it's overwhelmingly clear that that is the
36:36
Speaker 2: case through these seven areas that I examined.
36:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the next thing I want to talk about
36:41
Speaker 1: is the most important, I think in that is the
36:44
Speaker 1: gospel itself. That these churches that if you were to
36:48
Speaker 1: go up to them and say, what must I do
36:52
Speaker 1: to be saved? Right? You know that like the Philippi
36:54
Speaker 1: and Jailer, would they even quote at sixteen? Would they
36:58
Speaker 1: even know at sixteen? But you know, in the sense
37:01
Speaker 1: of that you have the gospel lost in the shuffle,
37:04
Speaker 1: and you know, different kind of talk about these you
37:06
Speaker 1: have different descriptions all these different types of gospels that
37:09
Speaker 1: are that are you know, policitic Galatians one right, you know,
37:12
Speaker 1: seventh to nine, any other gospel angel doesn't matter anathema.
37:16
Speaker 1: So we're seeing that, right, this evangelistic apostasy.
37:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're seeing it especially in the
37:23
Speaker 2: postmodern age. And so I talk about how the gospel,
37:27
Speaker 2: the biblical gospel, is information about a crucified and risen
37:33
Speaker 2: savior who paid the penalty for our sins and gives
37:35
Speaker 2: us eternal life. That's the biblical gospel, and you can
37:38
Speaker 2: say it in different ways, but that's the coor essence.
37:41
Speaker 2: What the gospel has become is things like how to
37:45
Speaker 2: have a better life now, how to find purpose in life,
37:49
Speaker 2: you know, all of these different nomenclatures, and it just
37:53
Speaker 2: has become so earthly focused that the concept of sin
37:58
Speaker 2: and the seriousness of it and the penalty that it carries,
38:01
Speaker 2: which is eternal eternity and a literal place of torment
38:05
Speaker 2: called hell, is lost. And so people, you know, the
38:09
Speaker 2: gospel is often couch in terms like are you feeling
38:13
Speaker 2: lonely and depressed and discourage? You've kind of lost your way,
38:15
Speaker 2: will come to Jesus and your life will be better.
38:18
Speaker 2: And there's no sin, there's no atonement, there's no death, burreer, resurrection,
38:23
Speaker 2: none of that. And so not all gospels are created equal.
38:27
Speaker 2: There's one gospel. It's so simple, you can say it
38:29
Speaker 2: in ten words or less. Christ died for our sins
38:31
Speaker 2: and those from the dead, you know, so we deal
38:34
Speaker 2: with a lot of those. The performance Gospel, which is
38:38
Speaker 2: the age old number one enemy of the cross that
38:41
Speaker 2: you know, works in grace romans for don't mix, you know,
38:45
Speaker 2: or not saved by works. That's our passion of our
38:48
Speaker 2: ministry in BW, and not by works of righteousness, which
38:51
Speaker 2: we've done, but Accordney's mercy. He saved us. And so
38:53
Speaker 2: I call that the performance gospel. Any approach to gaining
38:57
Speaker 2: eternal life that mixes works in with grace is to
39:00
Speaker 2: be rejected. Whether you put it on the front end
39:03
Speaker 2: you got to do good works to be saved, or
39:05
Speaker 2: you put it on the back end, you got to
39:06
Speaker 2: do good works so you're not saved, or.
39:08
Speaker 1: To keep sort of stay safe or to stay saved.
39:10
Speaker 2: Exactly. So the performance gospel, you know, the the the
39:15
Speaker 2: postmodern gospel, or what I call the purpose gospel. Obviously
39:19
Speaker 2: we're all familiar with the pluralistic gospel and the prosperity gospel,
39:23
Speaker 2: and those are big ones. One of the ones that
39:25
Speaker 2: I think is wrong, but I'm more willing to sit
39:31
Speaker 2: down and have a conversation about, is what I call
39:33
Speaker 2: the puzzling gospel, because I think a lot of people
39:36
Speaker 2: they get the gospel. They understand, and I'm talking about
39:38
Speaker 2: preachers and teachers. They understand that the gospel is quite
39:43
Speaker 2: simply trusting in Jesus Christ and him alone for salvation.
39:46
Speaker 2: He died and rose again for our sins. But in
39:48
Speaker 2: our culture, we've we've taken to using sort of colloquialisms
39:53
Speaker 2: like invite him into your heart or surrender your life
39:56
Speaker 2: to him, or you know that kind of thing. And
39:59
Speaker 2: so that that's why I love on our program. We
40:01
Speaker 2: do a daily video program. You've been on many times.
40:04
Speaker 2: I'll bring on anybody, and I love being able to
40:08
Speaker 2: give the clear gospel because without being critical or calling
40:14
Speaker 2: them out or whatever, if someone says, you know a
40:16
Speaker 2: gospel in one of those sort of puzzling terms, I
40:19
Speaker 2: know they're solid and they know the Lord, and they've
40:21
Speaker 2: got their good students of scripture, and so I'll just
40:25
Speaker 2: sort of repeat it in a gracious way, in a
40:27
Speaker 2: way that's that's a little more clear. There's no reason.
40:30
Speaker 2: I mean, if there's one thing the Bible is clear about, Mando,
40:32
Speaker 2: it's the gospel. There's no reason for us to give
40:34
Speaker 2: it what we think is helped by coming up with
40:36
Speaker 2: all these other fancy words. Let's just use faith. You know,
40:40
Speaker 2: have you believed in Jesus? You know? So anyway, Yeah,
40:44
Speaker 2: that's what we get it into in that chapter.
40:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, in which again as we look around the
40:50
Speaker 1: how often do we hear someone say, you know, I was.
40:53
Speaker 1: I was involved in this church, you know, for until
40:56
Speaker 1: I was twenty, and then I went out and I
40:58
Speaker 1: went to them, maybe another person Bible study, and I
41:00
Speaker 1: heard the Gospel for the first time. I was like,
41:02
Speaker 1: so they were in the church. I mean like Gary Steerman.
41:04
Speaker 1: He would say he was in the Methodist church for
41:07
Speaker 1: thirty years of his life and he never heard the
41:09
Speaker 1: gospel and he finally heard the gospel from some other place.
41:11
Speaker 1: It wasn't there, and it's like really, And I could
41:14
Speaker 1: say the same thing for myself. I mean, I mean
41:17
Speaker 1: only in the sense that I went to Catholic grade
41:19
Speaker 1: school for you know, until my eighth grade year, so
41:22
Speaker 1: I was fourteen years old, and then I went to
41:23
Speaker 1: public high school. But then hearing the clear Gospel of
41:26
Speaker 1: that number one, I was in trouble. Okay, my sin
41:30
Speaker 1: had consequences and I was separated. And then I heard that,
41:34
Speaker 1: you know, Jesus died in my place and I could
41:37
Speaker 1: be forgiven, you know again, if I if I had faith,
41:39
Speaker 1: and I was like, man, that's a great deal. I
41:43
Speaker 1: thought of it in terms of well, what idiot, I
41:47
Speaker 1: mean seriously, that was my what idiot? Wouldn't take those terms.
41:51
Speaker 1: I mean, I was in accounting. I was in the accounting matro.
41:54
Speaker 1: I thought, now, now that's a deal. And it was
41:56
Speaker 1: like immediately I was in one hundred percent. Man. Once
42:01
Speaker 1: I recognized again that it wasn't just hey, God loves
42:05
Speaker 1: you and has a plan for your life, believe on
42:06
Speaker 1: the Lord Jesus, I needed to understand, well, why do
42:10
Speaker 1: I even need to believe on it?
42:11
Speaker 2: Exactly?
42:12
Speaker 1: I was confronted with my status of on my way
42:16
Speaker 1: to hell as an unbeliever, and and because of my
42:19
Speaker 1: actions in that sense certainly, you know, and I was like,
42:22
Speaker 1: truly the fear of God came on me, like, no,
42:24
Speaker 1: I'm I need to fix this. What's the solution? And
42:28
Speaker 1: I didn't all my cousin and my cousin who shared, well,
42:31
Speaker 1: and this is the gospel. He just his words were, well,
42:33
Speaker 1: you're going to hell. And I'm like, well, what am
42:36
Speaker 1: I going to hell for? I'm like, what are you
42:37
Speaker 1: talking about? I was totally confused, and you know, he's like, well,
42:40
Speaker 1: you're a fordicator, and I'm like, I don't even know
42:42
Speaker 1: what that means. And so honestly I really didn't. So
42:45
Speaker 1: he explained it to me. And I was like, I said,
42:48
Speaker 1: where does it say that? And he goes in the
42:50
Speaker 1: Bible and I go and I, you know, I like evidence,
42:51
Speaker 1: I said where and he goes, I don't know. I go,
42:53
Speaker 1: you don't even know what you're talking about. But it
42:55
Speaker 1: was just interesting that that day we worked together and
42:59
Speaker 1: I went home and I was nervous because I thought, well,
43:03
Speaker 1: I at least need to try to if I'm going
43:05
Speaker 1: to prove them wrong, then I need to just make
43:08
Speaker 1: sure so that I can have confidence. And then I
43:10
Speaker 1: you know, got the dusty Bible out. But nevertheless, at
43:13
Speaker 1: that moment when I read that passage, it was like
43:16
Speaker 1: the first thing, don't be deceived, you know, fornicators. The
43:19
Speaker 1: first word adulter is a sexual A haait that came up.
43:21
Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, what have I done? And then
43:25
Speaker 1: the problem was is again going back to where I
43:28
Speaker 1: was stuck here. So I was condemned and I knew
43:31
Speaker 1: I was condemntion. Yeah, but what I didn't know was
43:35
Speaker 1: how do I fix this. I just thought, Okay, you
43:38
Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna
43:40
Speaker 1: just and then the next thankfully, next week, I sat
43:43
Speaker 1: down with a pastor who said, well, it's good that
43:45
Speaker 1: you realize you're guilty, but let me tell you how
43:48
Speaker 1: to get forgiveness.
43:49
Speaker 2: So and it is. It is an amazing deal. That's
43:52
Speaker 2: what grace. That's what's so amazing about grace. Like we're saying,
43:56
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean, if it's not free, it's not grace.
43:58
Speaker 2: And yet the pride of men and women is so
44:01
Speaker 2: strong they really struggle to think they can get something
44:03
Speaker 2: as valuable as forgiveness and eternal life for free. Like
44:07
Speaker 2: this guy, I ran it up. We were talking about
44:08
Speaker 2: it before that. We started recording at the gas station
44:10
Speaker 2: on the way to the studio today and he goes, well,
44:12
Speaker 2: what role of works play? Saw my car car has
44:15
Speaker 2: NBW on it in the back, has saved by grace,
44:17
Speaker 2: not by works Titus three to five. And he saw that.
44:20
Speaker 2: And this happens a lot because you know, at gas stations,
44:23
Speaker 2: you're sitting there pumping the gas and they see that, Yeah,
44:25
Speaker 2: they see your better. And usually it's Christians who go like, hey,
44:27
Speaker 2: praise God.
44:28
Speaker 1: And if they're on the car still, I mean sometimes
44:29
Speaker 1: they disappear.
44:30
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's right. Yeah, well we got a different
44:33
Speaker 2: new car now that the magnets are still there, but
44:35
Speaker 2: the back we take those different story. But Amando stole
44:39
Speaker 2: my magnets one.
44:40
Speaker 1: Time, borrowed I returned them.
44:41
Speaker 2: Yes you did, you did borrow them.
44:42
Speaker 1: But it left me, uh panic to the fort and
44:45
Speaker 1: I feel really good bad.
44:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy, he goes, well, what role of works
44:48
Speaker 2: play then, and and I go none, Absolutely not as
44:51
Speaker 2: it relates to eternal life. Yes, now, absolutely every believer
44:55
Speaker 2: should should as they follow the spirit produce good works.
44:58
Speaker 2: But if you're counting on one iota of works to
45:01
Speaker 2: get you into heaven, you don't understand grace. And Jesus
45:04
Speaker 2: didn't have to die on the cross. He didn't die
45:06
Speaker 2: to get us ninety nine percent there or to keep.
45:08
Speaker 1: Us again in the same thing, or to be like again,
45:10
Speaker 1: oh I've done. Thank you Jesus for kicking me down
45:12
Speaker 1: the road. But I'll take care of it from here, right.
45:14
Speaker 1: I got it, I got those things you got me started.
45:17
Speaker 1: It was like no that See this is where again,
45:20
Speaker 1: where we're at, is that in our in our culture,
45:23
Speaker 1: this is the failure of the church, right because the
45:26
Speaker 1: church has has throughout the years again, and I guess
45:29
Speaker 1: let me ask you this question on that is the
45:31
Speaker 1: Church has now and again in Apostles the Great Last Days.
45:35
Speaker 1: When would you say that, is there a singular moment
45:37
Speaker 1: in time when it started, or was it kind of
45:39
Speaker 1: a transition or a progress?
45:41
Speaker 2: I mean, no, I charted this out in my I
45:44
Speaker 2: have a postmodernism and historical perspective chart in the book.
45:47
Speaker 2: In fact, the book has fifteen charts in there that
45:49
Speaker 2: kind of help explain what I'm trying to say. But
45:52
Speaker 2: certainly the turn of the twentieth century, from the late
45:54
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, you know, the early nineteen hundreds with the
45:57
Speaker 2: onset of higher criticism and modernism them and you know
46:02
Speaker 2: ration you know, rational rationalism, that kind of stuff. It
46:05
Speaker 2: that's when it started, and it's just been a slippery
46:08
Speaker 2: slope ever since. So it's started in the academy. You know,
46:11
Speaker 2: the Princeton's Harvard jails used to be bastions of biblical truth.
46:15
Speaker 2: We could think of guys like bb Warfield and you
46:18
Speaker 2: know all the other great Princetonians whose names escaped me them.
46:22
Speaker 2: Oh that's embarrassing, Hodge and some of the others. But
46:25
Speaker 2: but now there look at them now. And then so
46:27
Speaker 2: the academy produces the preachers. The preachers preach to the congregation.
46:32
Speaker 2: The congregation goes out into.
46:33
Speaker 1: The world and it shapes the culture.
46:35
Speaker 2: It shapes the culture. And so by the way, you know,
46:39
Speaker 2: getting back to kind of the premise of the book
46:41
Speaker 2: and what Paul says that there will be a great
46:43
Speaker 2: Last Day's apostecy. In that regard, the Church is not
46:47
Speaker 2: doing any better than Israel did because Israel's job, likewise,
46:51
Speaker 2: was to go into canaan witness to the unity of Yahweh,
46:55
Speaker 2: draw the pagan nations.
46:56
Speaker 1: Like the Queen of Sheba as an example, come in well,
46:58
Speaker 1: look at the glory of God.
46:59
Speaker 2: Right And instead, over time they ended up capitulating to
47:04
Speaker 2: the pagan cultures, intermarrying and becoming no different. And the
47:07
Speaker 2: Church has done the same thing, married the world. Again,
47:10
Speaker 2: we're focusing on the apostacy. Obviously there's great examples of
47:15
Speaker 2: great evangelistic revivals and moves of the Spirit of God
47:18
Speaker 2: and so forth. But as a whole, the church today
47:22
Speaker 2: is failing and its attempt or its task of bringing
47:25
Speaker 2: people to Christ.
47:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and you know, just based on time,
47:31
Speaker 1: your last chapter and this is probably this is very helpful.
47:34
Speaker 1: Where does the church go from here? And and on
47:36
Speaker 1: that I'll throw it out to you. Is that? Okay?
47:40
Speaker 1: So somebody's listening to this and you know, get they
47:42
Speaker 1: get the book. And then I said, oh, we're living
47:43
Speaker 1: in now days. Okay, what do I do this information?
47:45
Speaker 1: And maybe tied into hey, what about a revival? Are
47:52
Speaker 1: are we believing the revivals coming? I mean, look at
47:54
Speaker 1: you know, look at all the things that are happening politically,
47:57
Speaker 1: and we don't need to go down that rabble necessarily,
47:58
Speaker 1: but just look at all the revivals in the revivals coming?
48:02
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that what the ile teaches is that
48:04
Speaker 1: Revival's coming.
48:05
Speaker 2: Not at all teaches just the opposite. As we've said
48:07
Speaker 2: a couple of times in this discussion sag and Timothy
48:09
Speaker 2: three thirteen, evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse.
48:12
Speaker 2: So depravity is a degenerative disease. Obviously, when a person
48:16
Speaker 2: comes to know Christ and is born again, they are
48:18
Speaker 2: a new nature. The Holy Spirit takes the presence and
48:21
Speaker 2: they you know, they can then begin to walk like Christ.
48:24
Speaker 2: But as a whole, as a culture, we're not going
48:27
Speaker 2: to see a great End Times revival until Christ comes
48:31
Speaker 2: back and makes all things new. So but that doesn't
48:34
Speaker 2: mean there won't be pockets or revival. I mean, we
48:36
Speaker 2: can read the Bible and look at church history and
48:38
Speaker 2: see plenty of examples of that.
48:39
Speaker 1: There.
48:40
Speaker 2: As Paul went from city to city and region to region,
48:43
Speaker 2: there was great harvest of souls as people heard the gospel.
48:46
Speaker 2: The gospel is powerful. But to think somehow that because
48:51
Speaker 2: you know, as Christian conservatives, we got our guy in
48:56
Speaker 2: the White House now, so everything's going to be okay,
48:59
Speaker 2: I just think that's naive. I mean, certainly there are
49:02
Speaker 2: a lot of good that comes from that, no doubt,
49:05
Speaker 2: But to think that our hope is in a person
49:07
Speaker 2: or a political process, as you said, it's very American centric.
49:11
Speaker 2: It's it's there's no reason to see through that lens.
49:15
Speaker 2: But no, I don't see there being a great revival,
49:18
Speaker 2: you know.
49:18
Speaker 1: And I think we have to be careful because you know,
49:21
Speaker 1: again when we look at some of these these these
49:24
Speaker 1: actions that are taking place from a political perspective, I think, okay,
49:27
Speaker 1: all right, okay, you know, the border is getting you know, secure,
49:31
Speaker 1: We're they're departing criminals.
49:33
Speaker 2: Oh that's good.
49:33
Speaker 1: I'm glad. That makes me feel safer. Okay, But that
49:37
Speaker 1: doesn't that's not equal to oh, Wow, somebody got saved, right,
49:41
Speaker 1: you know, you know there's there's there's those things that
49:44
Speaker 1: are practical that I see there. But it's not an automatic.
49:47
Speaker 1: Again that the church, now the church as it relates
49:51
Speaker 1: to the Gospel and people coming to salvation as all
49:53
Speaker 1: of a sudden boom going to be is going to happen.
49:56
Speaker 1: So people need to be careful to keep that distinction
50:00
Speaker 1: that you know, Jesus said, my kingdom is out of
50:02
Speaker 1: this world. It's not going to come like I think
50:04
Speaker 1: we're talking in a different program. It's not going to
50:06
Speaker 1: come through the ballot box.
50:07
Speaker 2: No, it's not. And and chapter nine in there, which
50:10
Speaker 2: again I want to be gracious and I really try
50:13
Speaker 2: to be in that chapter. I'm not trying to cast stones.
50:17
Speaker 2: But the whole notion of political apostasy, I think it
50:21
Speaker 2: is a reality. We are seeing the church cozy up
50:24
Speaker 2: to politics and government in an unhealthy way, in an
50:27
Speaker 2: unhealthy way. We just are and not everybody, you.
50:31
Speaker 1: Know, everybody, but you know, and there's a balance. I guess.
50:33
Speaker 1: Let me just say anybody that is they could it
50:36
Speaker 1: could come on them where they they start trusting in.
50:40
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say salvation because they're smart enough not to
50:42
Speaker 1: say that, but they're leaning too much like this mechanism
50:45
Speaker 1: is going to save us.
50:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's hard to put into words,
50:51
Speaker 2: but you said it well that the distinction between this
50:55
Speaker 2: kingdom is out of our world. In this world. So
50:56
Speaker 2: if I need a repair man, I want the best
50:58
Speaker 2: repairman I can get to come it. I don't necessarily
51:00
Speaker 2: think in terms of, oh, he's got to be a Christian, right,
51:04
Speaker 2: And it bothers me to some extent that so many
51:06
Speaker 2: Christians have fallen into this right left paradigm trap to
51:10
Speaker 2: where because it's not commal or not you know, Biden
51:14
Speaker 2: or not Obama or Hillary or whatever, well they lump
51:18
Speaker 2: him the other guy, the other candidate. What they are
51:20
Speaker 2: after thing, Yeah, this Christian thing. Why not just be
51:22
Speaker 2: honest and say, you know what, he's doing some good things,
51:26
Speaker 2: you know, philosophically and economically and culturally. I like some
51:31
Speaker 2: of the things this guy is doing better. You don't
51:33
Speaker 2: need to give him God's stamp of approval as if
51:35
Speaker 2: he's somehow a king.
51:37
Speaker 1: And also, yeah, you know you have some things out
51:39
Speaker 1: there and long live the king, and you know he's
51:42
Speaker 1: putting some of these videos out where he's a golden statue.
51:45
Speaker 1: And you know, again, we need to be honest. And
51:48
Speaker 1: you know, every time we talk about this, we end
51:50
Speaker 1: up having people get upset. But I think, hey, listen,
51:52
Speaker 1: the loyalties of Jesus Christ and the fact of the
51:55
Speaker 1: matter is, again we could acknowledge, yeah, there's good items happen.
52:00
Speaker 1: But at the same time, look, I say this, all
52:03
Speaker 1: you gotta do. I follow, you know, Trump's telegram channel
52:06
Speaker 1: because I like to see what's happening. But if you
52:08
Speaker 1: just read it and you're honest, it's like, hey, everybody,
52:12
Speaker 1: I'm the best. Everybody else is a loser. You know,
52:16
Speaker 1: I won this and nobody else could do it but me.
52:18
Speaker 1: And you're like, that doesn't smell like Jesus. Really, that
52:21
Speaker 1: is not the humble you know, when you self promote
52:25
Speaker 1: on almost every occasion, you know, people can be as
52:29
Speaker 1: mad at me as they want, But that is not Jesus.
52:32
Speaker 1: Jesus was this is Philippians chapter two. He did not
52:35
Speaker 1: draw attention to himself. And yet when I read, even
52:38
Speaker 1: though again I like some those things that are being done,
52:40
Speaker 1: but this self congratulations, this self promotion, that is so
52:44
Speaker 1: unlike the Jesus that we know Mondo.
52:47
Speaker 2: We're not electing a preacher, We're electing a president. See that,
52:50
Speaker 2: that's what people will say.
52:51
Speaker 1: Well, and I'm okay with that. Yeah i am too.
52:53
Speaker 1: But don't sit around and tell me then.
52:55
Speaker 2: That he's God's man.
52:56
Speaker 1: He's exactly or they're unwilling to criticize that part of it.
53:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
53:01
Speaker 1: No.
53:01
Speaker 2: In the second volume of my Spirit of the Anti
53:03
Speaker 2: Christ three volume set, I have a whole chapter on
53:05
Speaker 2: the narcissism epidemic. Yeah, as a as a part of
53:09
Speaker 2: the spirit of Pride, which is one of the seventh
53:10
Speaker 2: spirits of the Antichrist. And yeah, it's it's it's just
53:13
Speaker 2: just there's some inconsistency there. I think Christians need to
53:17
Speaker 2: do a better job we all do at nuancing this
53:20
Speaker 2: and recognizing things and and also being awake and aware.
53:24
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, even though even in the midst
53:27
Speaker 2: of some good things that are happening, the devil, you know,
53:30
Speaker 2: he's not going to show up carrying a pitchfork and
53:32
Speaker 2: with horns and a tail. He's going to come as
53:34
Speaker 2: an angel.
53:34
Speaker 1: Of Life's let's be careful, you know. Yeah, Well, this
53:38
Speaker 1: this has been good JB. The Great Last Days Apostacy,
53:42
Speaker 1: how the American Church is falling away. Share the website again.
53:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just the title the Great Last Days
53:47
Speaker 2: Apostasy dot org. The Great Last Days Apostacy dot org.
53:51
Speaker 2: Great way to just kind of learn more about it,
53:53
Speaker 2: kind of, uh, you know, see see what you think
53:55
Speaker 2: and then again come back into Propercy Watchers dot com
53:58
Speaker 2: and get it from them.
53:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, JB, thanks for coming and thanks everybody for
54:02
Speaker 1: listening today. Again, this is just another indication that we
54:06
Speaker 1: are at the end of the age, and which is
54:09
Speaker 1: an exciting time to be here to watch all these
54:11
Speaker 1: things come to be, and the Lord's return is that
54:14
Speaker 1: much sooner. So thank for your prayers and support as always,
54:17
Speaker 1: and we'll catch you next time.