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Chief Almaguer on the Trust Gap Nobody Trains For · Firefighter Nation Podcast

• Nat Kapustin: In this episode, we're featuring an interview from our sister podcast, Responder Resilience. Thanks for listening and enjoy the conversation. Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a paramedic. I am a 911 communications operator. Not I do this work, but I am this job. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders, and they may say, There's no higher calling than helping the helpers. Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whispered about, where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no To carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We shine a spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality. And celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth. We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomeli, LCSW EMT. We'd like to welcome Chief Manny Almagher. He's an assistant chief with the Denver Fire Department. And 26 years in, he's worn nearly every hat, Division Chief of Fire Prevention, Assistant Chief of Both Training and Operations, Hazmat Captain, and Lieutenant in Administration. For the last 15 years, he's been a national voice on first responder mental health, invited to speak at the White House, the Pentagon, at NATCON on suicide prevention, and men's mental health. Before the fire service, he was a psychiatric nurse. That background shapes everything he does now, building programs that actually work, not just ones that look good on paper. Chief, welcome to Responder Resilience. Good morning. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. Thank you for your time, Chief. As a fellow member of the First Responder Psychology Club, I I can't wait to hear about your story. I feel like we talk a lot about First responders retiring and becoming therapists, but we don't have a lot of people in the psych world who then became first responders or vice versa. So it would be great to hear your story on that. Absolutely. You know, I had just graduated from high school and you know, me knowing everything in life, I passed upon a scholarship in journalism. I was pretty much given a couple weeks to go find a job of my own, go to college, where the military. And if I didn't produce those results in two weeks then I was pretty much out of my house. So, you know, as fate would have it. You know, I ended up applying at the state of Colorado. At a job I really didn't even know what it was. I just actually was kinda stranded in a parking lot, went and walked into this lobby and applied just so I could be welcomed back in my home and kinda have my parents off my case for a bit. And little did I know that I was working at the institution for the severe developmentally disabled at age eighteen. You know, was I ill equipped? Absolutely. Mentally I was ill equipped. You know, I I was invincible and I, you know, I had all my friends were out there doing what eighteen year old, you know, young men do. I was put into a place where it just really, really just made me so aware of human interaction, being able to be very, very sensitive to auditory and visual stimulus and overload. And it was it was a lot to take in at age eighteen, but I'm so grateful that it happened that way. as it did help me transition into the fire service and just gave me just an overall heightened level of situational awareness and ability to read people and ability to relate to people. Because for so many years I had related to individuals that ha were nonverbal. So I had to learn how to pick up on nonverbal communication, reading the environment or as we called it what's still called the milieu and just being able to maintain calmness, steadiness, and just find alternative approaches and how to relate to people. Yeah, I love the the common ground between doing your job as a psychiatric nurse and then becoming a firefighter and ultimately a you know a leader in the department. Can you go a little deeper into how those skills transferred and how you might have used them in different leadership positions to to work with your crews. You know, I had come into the fire service fairly equipped, more than the my classmates, you know, like I said, I had been around a lot of as I call it institutional trauma, things that I didn't even know that would would come back to shape me. And I wanna be able to forewarn me, so to speak, in the way I'd be an environment as a firefighter. I'm like, Wait, I've been here before. And I would start to get a little a little nervous, a little anxious. And then I have to go back, say, where did this come from? Well, a lot of it came from the institution. So I learned how to channel that into being able to go into environments and use it as a like a a heightened mechanism of ability to read situations and scenarios into as we call it scene safety. And you know, I I I didn't really understand it till I got well into it into my career. And so That's when I really started to kind of morph into how did this prepare me? What skills did this give me? I was able to, you know, navigate through some of these scenarios that we've all been through and to learn and to delve in deep to like what do they mean? And that's when I really started to understand that I came into the fire service with trauma, you know, and I I learned that not everything came as a result of being a firefighter. A lot of it came from my experience of being a psychiatric registered nurse and being a before that a licensed psychiatric technician in the institutional setting. So a lot of that would just give me just kind of a template on how to move forward on the fire service and to start building mechanisms and how to start developing protective factors and resiliency to what I already had brought into the fire service. It's really interesting because the skills that you need to handle yourself, but also to read the population when you're in an inpatient facility is really unique. Yeah, I did it for one summer only, but you had years and years of this experience. So I would imagine coming into a department or going on scene, you can read body language, you can read behaviors, you might even be able to notice when something will happen before it happens. at that escalation point that other people I think would miss. Could you speak to that a little bit? Yes, you know, it was actually I was such on a heightened, hyper vigilant level of always assuming something was around the corner. You know, when you work mainly in a in a psychiatric setting, you know, and I worked on a on a assaulted unit and I worked on a behavior modification unit where everything was tied to consequences and reinforcement and very very detailed treatment plans around assaulted behavior. So I came into the fire service with this heightened level, like something is always gonna happen. My mind just never was able to rest. It was always heightened like okay, you know, there's somebody around the corner, somebody gonna come bursting out of the door. I'd go into people's homes on a medical call and you're just always just kinda waiting. And I had to learn that it wasn't always that way. It sure gave me a a new skill in the fire service, which I thought was more advanced than than most people I was with. But I also had to train myself on to being able to come in and focus on my job, providing patient care, communicating with patients and still be in in tune to what's going on around me, but not so focused on Okay, something is going to happen that's that's going to make me feel threatened. No, that's a great point that you came out of that environment with hypervigilance, really, is what you're describing. So it's great that you're able to recognize it, learn strategies. Maybe we can circle back on that a little bit more. I know David has another question for you. Well, just to kind of take along with the theme, If you were meeting a captain who's never heard the term psychological safety before, how would you explain it to him? How would you define it? That's a great question. It's in a setting, any setting, but many other settings where there's a lot of dynamic changing environments and some volatile environments. Psychological safety, I would explain to this captain is do you have my back? And that is do you offer me an environment where I feel safe, protected, and it and be and and and having the permission to be courageous and vulnerable to speak what's on my mind. And it's whether I'm having, you know, the best day of my life, it's I'm having the worst day of of my life. And a lot of that comes with, you know, having been in those settings for so long, and I talk about the institutional settings. And a lot of it unfortunately was groundhog day, you know, and a lot of it could be based upon, you know, days where I would come in and say, you know what, there's really gonna be no progress. You know, I'm coming in here and basically taking care of people and I'll come in five years later and it'll pretty much be the same treatment plan. And so I had to train myself into looking at okay, what are the positive outcomes when when working with people? And a lot of that comes to is how do we lift each other up, how do we empower people, how do we take care of each other, how do we provide opportunities for growth? And all that I believe encompasses psychological safety. Do you have my back? Do you do I feel I can come to you and in those moments of of triumph and of crisis? Attention, all first responders. Join us for the largest gathering of EMS and fire professionals in New England. Get ready for the EMS and Fire Pro Expo happening October 22nd through 24th, 2026, at the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. Connect with over 2,500 fellow first responders. Learn from 90 plus world-class speakers, and explore 300-plus continuing education opportunities designed just for you. Dive into hands-on workshops that challenge your skills and elevate your career while enjoying fine dining and entertainment. This is your chance to gain insights that could change lives, yours included. Don't miss out. Register now at emspro.org and be part of this transformational experience. See you there. Now we talk a lot about leadership and building this kind of awareness and trying to teach leaders how to get in touch with their personnel, how to provide this safety. Can you give some tangible thoughts or steps that a leader could take if if they don't have your backgrounds to build that kind of safety in their department underneath them? Sure. You know, when I started fifteen years ago and having these conversations and building programs around mental health, resiliency, wellness. We really focused a lot on data. And sure I back then it had a lot of the shock factor, a lot of the wow factor. And we started to roll out these programs and people would understand like, okay, number one, I'm not alone. But as we started to navigate through a lot of these training programs, you realize the most key element is trust. And it's not you know, we in in the fire service and the first responder community, if we even sniff something that we feel is a check in the box type program, you already kind of see us retract and become defensive. But if you come in as a as a leader and you start to develop trust and a lot of that comes with and I mentioned this i in some of the conversations and conferences I speak at, it's having an eye story. How do you relate to the people that you lead? You know, we have we have software programs that we that, you know, are part of our staffing. We have software programs that we enter our internet management runs and we have software programs on just about everything in the fire service. Well, we all go, we do a QA, QI, we audit those programs for efficiency. But I as as leaders I I I really believe we need a lot more work to do and doing some auditing of the resources and the programs that are there for our most valuable asset are people. And so as a leader to develop trust, I really believe go out there and start having these conversations with resources in your community. Community groups that are centered on building mental health programs or or or long term or short term recovery. And when you go and you sit down with one with a with a member of your crew or member of your organization, and rather than handing them a pamphlet and saying, Call this number because I I sense that you're going through something, it's it it's it's such a powerful message to tell you know, I've called this program, I called nine eighty eight. Here's how it goes. You know, there's There's different types of avenues that you can go, whether you're in a crisis or whether you just need some guidance. Here are the pearls that I I saw or I I you know, that I I I I took away from the conversation. Here's some of the things that they could t possibly build on. And you kinda tailor it towards your members and audience that you're that you're f speaking with. And I believe that is probably the most effective tool that us as leaders have is to have that eye story and establish some trust. with the people that you lead. So important. And I heard you speak at the First Responder Center for Excellence Metal Wellness Symposium at Iowa a couple of months ago and you covered all some of some of this really well. And one of the things that you mentioned that I really took note of was something you call the kick the tires audit. And I think it relates to what you're describing. when you do that, who are you making contact with who picks up the phone and what are you listening for? What are you trying to get from that conversation so that you can show up as a leader when one of your members needs a resource? Yeah, great question. So it it's a matter of, you know, I I call nine eight eight and I say, you know, I'm I'm a first responder. I've been with my department for you know XYZ years. You know, I just wanna know, can you run me through a trial run of what it would be like if I called in, you know, not quite sure what I need. And emails they're so they're so welcoming and they're so gracious and they're just so happy to share this information with you. So they'll share with you, you know, what would you what this looks like if you just need to kind of find some outlet or some community resources that maybe they can help you find. Then I've also said, Okay, I am in a crisis and I have nobody in my support network, I am calling you because I am at a sa at a stage of full plus full assistant helplessness and I and I do have a plan. You know, so we go that route. I've always, you know, I I lost my little sister to to the effects of alcoholism a couple years ago and I and I never really understood why she wouldn't go to long term recovery such as Alcoholic Alcoholics Anonymous. And I've had members in my career who I've worked with who have struggled with alcohol addiction. So rather than just assume this was a big mystery, I just picked up the phone and I called a local Alcoholics Anonymous and went on a virtual meeting and and attended one in person. And they're just so grateful that, you know, somebody who's an a a non alcoholic is willing to come in, sit in that space with them to learn about the struggles. that they're going through to learn about their their their progress. And, you know, those takeaways, the next time I sit down with somebody who's having any issues with addiction, alcoholism, it it it's just a it's just they're just a gap and and it just and it's just it's just a powerful conversation to know that you at least have an idea of of what these services and programs offer to the people Or in the most vulnerable states. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp. If your job already demands everything from you, your training shouldn't add chaos to your day. It should give you structure. This is for firefighters, EMTs, paramedics, dispatchers, and police officers who still want a way to train with purpose. Fight Camp brings structured boxing and martial arts training into your home. No commute, no waiting, no guessing if your workout actually moved you forward. Every strike is tracked. So progress is visible, not vague. Every session gives you a clear standard to meet and a way to improve the next time you show up. Head to joinfightcamp.com/slash RR and use code RESILIENS for 10% off. I observe that people don't call these facilities or programs out of fear. I mean, even someone who doesn't have the problem has fear sometimes to make a call or to find out about a program. And I think it's really inspiring that you're talking about picking up the phone and getting it done, just like we would do to get the tires changed or to get something done in the station. this shouldn't be hard in a way, right? So I guess there's a couple of questions there, but how do we help people overcome that fear of the unknown? Because I think we're fighting the stigma, we're doing a great job, but there is still some unknown I think that causes that fear. What do you recommend in that realm? Well, you know, I think the stigma of the unknown and the fear of reaching out to resources has a lot to do with the messaging that's coming from from the top. And if it it's if it's an environment where it's supportive, it's empathetic and it is not any way related to performance or discipline or or or labeling, then I believe people We'll start taking those steps. And I would say that it's a matter of it starting at the top, going down to your command officers, going down to your supervisors. And then as I mentioned, in Iowa, everybody should be functioning at a basic mental health competency level, just like we have CPR. All of us in the fire service can perform CPR. We know the ABCs. Nope. Everybody should know re A D Cs of mental health competency and how to read your coworker, how to have those conversations with your coworker, have at least a few resources that you can chat with them about, be a buddy with them during this time that they're going through. And then we also need to know like, okay, well, where do I go after I hand off a patient, we we've just performed CPR, and will they go to the paramedics? Well, the paramedics in the first responder community would be your social workers. They would be well your clinicians. And then ultimately they go to the emergency room doctor. And then that would be our psychiatrists, our psychologists. So we're not asking everybody to to be the saviors and and our brothers and sisters keeper when it comes to recognizing, you know, when they're in a crisis. But everybody should have the basic mental health competency. And when you start saturating that in an organization and people know that people one day they could be the engineer, the next day it could be the senior firefighter. And you know the more options and the more people you know that are in this with you, I think that's where you start alleviating the stress and the anxiety and the fear and developing that culture where it's safe to to openly reach out. Yeah, I love the comparison to CPR in the sense that, you know, we do all these things as firefighters to stay, you know, current in our skill set. Or if we're gonna vet a new piece of equipment, you know, we'll do a like a half a day shootout on thermal imaging cameras and, you know, roll out all the gear, all the apparatus. But when it comes to mental health, we don't tend to go that distance. But you're talking you're describing vetting these resources in advance and giving people a skill set, just like we would any other EMS or fire skill that's that's so huge and I really I could see how it is a culture changer. getting back to the vetting of resources, because I imagine not every resource you called was one that you would call a keeper. the ones that didn't quite make the mark, what what do they teach you and what what should be asking as a chief before you recommend a resource to somebody who's struggling. That's that's a great question. You know one time I probably was a few months ago I looked at how many applications there were on your phone or on your computer that are centered on mental wellness and resiliency and support groups and I think I stopped counting around forty thousand. Just no way you can vet all of those applications. And so there's a there's a term that's used in the mental health world now. It's a wild west out there. Fifteen years ago we had maybe it was maybe a it was maybe f five to ten resources we would be able to reach out to. And you know, where it gave you a little bit more of an opportunity to vet those resources, start having conversations. Now it's everywhere. It's in it's in AI, it's on our phones, it's in our computers, you know, and it's some of these apps are turning into brick and mortar. There's setting up shop in your in your local community. And so how do you vet those? And I and I believe that you start doing some research on what had actually already been vetted. And then you start having those conversations. And and a lot of those are centered on first responders, veterans. And then you start there and then you start looking at some of those little sub subsets of okay, I'm going to look at these types of support groups that are dealing with financial distress. Then I start looking at the youths that are d dealing with, you know, relationships. Then I start looking at these that are dealing with, you know, more family based. So, you know, it takes it it's not something that types your fingertips, but it takes a little bit of siphoning and knowing your people and and that's where knowing the topics that your people in your organization are reaching out to. And that could be either contacting your peer support team, that could be contacting your department psychologist or the psychologists that are are that are in your network. And that's where you start having these conversations, like, you know, can you send me some data on what Firefighters, first responders are reaching out to speak with their social workers or I mean or their therapists on, and they'll give you that's okay, you know. Eighty percent are reaching out on family issues, twenty percent are reaching out on substance abuse issues. That's when you start kind of coming up with your little tree and say, Okay, you know what, I'm gonna start looking at the resources offered here. I'm gonna start looking at the resources offered here, and that's when you start making your calls. And you know, and like I said, I I know probably first responder well applications. I I I think probably I I know about ten to fifteen that are actually vetted, have actually, you know, have licensed staff, you know, no first responders well, no veterans well. And it's just you'll know right away when you start having these conversations, you know, if they've done their work and if they've had, you know, people who have come through their door. with the same types of you know of situations that you have already kind of looked into. Right. you're alluding to the fact that it's become very fashionable if if you will to work with first responders. And so we've seen in our world a lot of people jumping on this opportunity bandwagon whatever they do, whether they're clinicians or doing an app or doing some some kind of let's even say residential treatment center. First responders are like a hot ticket item as a, you know, client. And so kind of have to weed through all of that at the same time, right? Try to figure out who's really in this for the right reasons. Yeah, that's a great point. Fifteen years ago, when we in the Denver Fire Department had lost a command officer to suicide. And at that time we were going through our own training program. it is so it was pretty basic 15 years ago. And during this time we're going through this training program on mental wellness and sp and suicide prevention, you know, we lost one of our own under our noses. And so at that time I was well, I still am, I was with an employee group and we basically said, Okay, this is enough. You know, we we can't lose any more. 'Cause at that time we had lost like fifteen members of my organization in fifteen years. And so we started going out like Okay, this is almost like a grassroots grassroots type of project we're taking on here. We've started going out, knocking door to door at some of the local resources we knew. And people would bring us in and say, Let's have this conversation. You know, you're men, you know, obviously you're broken. What do you do again? Well, we're firefighters. And that's when you would start to see people back away. 'Cause the stigma, as you know, was just so strong. fifteen, twenty years ago. And to see it where it is today, like like you say, David, where it's just it's it's it's just like this the it's got all this sex appeal and the bright lights. And the sa the selling point back then when we started rolling out these these programs where it made its way into corporate America was listen, if these tough firefighters can come forward and tell you their stories, being broken and seeking therapy, Anybody can. So it it's it's fascinating to see, and and I'm grateful that it's a good problem to have, to have all of these resources. But every day it takes some legwork to actually go there and start betting these out. You're trained to help people heal, but first responders, they carry trauma that's buried under silence, stigma, and stress. Helping the helpers gives you the framework to connect, to speak their language, earn their trust, and actually make an impact. The experienced team and clinicians behind the Responder Resilience Podcast. This isn't theory, it's real-world support for the ones who need you most. And this book isn't just for clinicians. If you're an agency leader, peer support team, chaplain, EAP, wellness program coordinator, or family member, helping the helpers will equip you with the tools, language, and insight to make a difference. Be the resource they can count on. Order your copy of Helping the Helpers on Amazon today. Yeah, you're right. I also think in the first responder world, we work in silos in our department. And it it would be great if people would reach out to other departments more and say, Hey, what are you doing for this? Or what kind of an agency or organization do you use for this problem? And just talking more, asking each other, sharing the resources because Even if David and I think of the team that we're on, there might be a department in the state that isn't aware of the work that we do with first responders. But if they ask a neighboring department, that department might say, we use them all the time. Call this number, call so and so. so there's so many resources I think that we can be aware of that we don't always share efficiently with each other the way that we share about fire training programs or I know this great instructor who can come to a ropes course for you. Well, that's great. So why don't you share the information on all of this stuff too? It seems so obvious, but I think even just someone listening, why not ask other departments what their experiences are? You'll probably find some more answers. Absolutely. That's a great point. You know, there there are people who Yeah, you know, like you say, kind of taking what they've they've accumulated over the years and kinda keep it close to their vest and then it becomes kinda like competition, who gets credit for this, who gets credit for this. But at the end of the day, it's about our people, it's about the fire service. And why wouldn't you want to share? And like like you say, why wouldn't you want to share the the latest and the greatest technique or piece of equipment to save lives? It's no different. Why don't you offer the lessons that we learned? You know, and I and I say this, you know, when you have a near miss or you have you know, you know, unfortunately a line of duty deaf, all hands are on deck. You know, and you come up with these after action reports. Well, we don't have anything when we have a nearness of people in our department who are in a crisis and need to have an attempt on their life. And it's so hush hush. And we don't take those lessons that we learn and we don't share them even internally year long with other organizations. Dan? Yeah, it's huge. I mean, I I think I still take some of those lessons from the adverse situations in my department and apply them maybe different ways. But at the time there was no formal way to, as you're alluding to, kind of use it as you know, like we would in terms of how we train, right? We watch you know, close calls and we try to use that as a a training tool to do our next training evolution, how we're gonna avoid making the same, you know, mistakes that might have hurt or kill firefighters. And that in this case it seems like that could be used in some de identified fashion to help you know, help us all get better. I know. I think there's a lot of fear. And we haven't really said this before, but I think there's also a lot of fear and the liability of all of these things. And no one wants to really come out and say that. but I think there's a lot of fear of the blame and the finger pointing and whose shoulders is this going to be placed on. You know, is it leadership? Like it gets very, very complicated. And I think that's when you see people's psychological processes, shall we say, come out. You know, the people and their personalities come out in the hardest of times. And I just can't help to wonder if that's a good part of this. Possibly, yeah. I wanna move on to this this piece that I'm really, really interested to hear what your thoughts are, Chief. And that's you used the term I don't think I'd heard it before, when I heard you speak, you use the term cultural empathy. And if we look at that versus cultural competency, why does that distinction matter? And if we're gonna do a trade in a trader, you know, what does that actually look like in practice to to impart on them cultural empathy? Yeah, so cultural competency and this is first hand experience and it and it's all of the best intentions from from, you know, the the programs that have been, you know, set. So I I really started to learn more about cultural competency versus cultural empathy when I was going through the department training fifteen years ago. And as you know, You know, you bring anybody into the fire service or first responder community with all this alphabet soup after their name. You're gonna get some pushback or you're gonna get some call-ins that day, you know, you're gonna have some people posturing and y you know, it's gonna be a a lot of negative naysaying. So, you know, but you know, you sometimes you have to sit through and learn and a g you know, and bless their heart, a group came in fifteen years ago. And, you know, said, okay, you know, we're gonna develop a training program for Denver firefighters on suicide prevention and mental wellness. And we're gonna roll out this program after we get the data from these focus groups that we're going to be speaking So we're gonna basically come up with the strengths and needs assessment that we're gonna roll out this training. So they took all of our information. We know we we we sat in these focus groups, you know, we were we were pretty It was pretty glaring and it was it was so hard to sit through these little groups and you know thinking that I really thought I knew my my my coworker, but I really didn't know them at all. And so you you just lay your hour out, you lay everything out on there, and then this group comes in and they take it and they start to develop this curriculum based upon their well deserved, you know, experience, expertise and on all their education. And then You know, we had a conversation saying, Wait a minute here. You're telling me what's best for me just based upon some information I gave you, which I think is cultural competency. And they use it in so many different ways. It's not just mental health, it's a lot of organizations really teaching you something new. And so cultural empathy is an a group coming in or an organization coming to a group of people saying, You know what? I admit I may have the education, I may have the background, but I'm gonna tell you I don't know. everything that you have gone through, you're going through, or you will go through. And I want to have you at the seat of have a seat at the table, have a voice, and help us help you. That's where cultural empathy comes in. It's just a matter of just kind of acknowledging who's in the room, recognizing their experience and And is together collaborating to put out the best product for its members because the success we had in 2013 when we rolled out at that time was really un unheard of. I mean mental health suicide prevention training program to over eleven hundred members. You know, it was it it it it it it took some courage, but at the same time we knew it had to be biased. for us. And a lot of that came from a an organization saying, okay, you're right. Let's develop this program with some cultural empathy of the people we have in this room. That's and that that to me is is the difference. I think I think you're making such a good point. And from my observation, yes, being a first responder, but also I think the first responder population needs that more than any other population. I would argue veterans do as well, but they need to be involved in the education process because that's also how they build trust in that therapy or in that entity. So if they are asked for feedback, it it's not just a learning to build the cultural competency or empathy. It's to build the trust. And I think that's the part that gets really lost on people, you know, in my profession, Stacy's profession, who mean well and come in and, you know, they have big names, like you said, but it doesn't always translate properly with this population. So I think that's such a good point that you made. And hopefully if there are therapists listening today, which sometimes there are, they'll think about that too and just consider the input from your population. Yes, absolutely one of the best stories I have that came out of this developing this training curriculum is it really started with around five of us in this focus group. And one of the members of this employee group who also worked directly with the captain that took his life, we brought him in. He was in a bad place. And he we brought him in and he's really started to open up. We could see before our eyes that this was a form of therapy and recovery for him and being a part of this process. And to you come out to where he's at now where he's he's gone on to tell his story across the country and has put a face to vulnerability, it was a win-win for him and a win-win for the fire service and the the first responder community. In terms of being a manager in the fire service in having some literacy with mental health or let's say situational awareness with mental health. What would a battalion chief or company officer need to know at a minimum to catch something early with one of their members? Yes, it's it's what we've been taught since the day we enter the fire academy. You know, we are told you are a safety officer, regardless of your rank and regardless if you are the lowest seniority member of your organization. You see something unsafe on the fire ground, you have the latitude to tap the incident commander on their shoulder and say, Hey, I have a spongy roof. Hey, I have a sinking floor. That's the mentality we need to have from our first grade firefighters, our recruit firefighters, up to our first level supervisors to our command officers. It's being able to recognize before an imminent hazard on those environments or or those or those signs where somebody is not themselves and having the urge and this minimal skill set. to intervene and that starts with having conversations and I and I and I you know, we we've been there fifteen, twenty years ago we didn't even dare speak about these things like the dinner table, coffee table. Today I could walk into the firehouse and you're you can hear it. It's in its own way, but you can hear it how somebody has said, Hey, you know, this happened to me the other day, you know, and they start bouncing ideas off of each other. And there and the advice from the skills that the members have accrued during their time are so different than they were fifteen twenty years ago. Fifteen, twenty years ago, you came in and you had a issue at home with your spouse. You had the firehouse divorce lawyer telling you, you know, not the best advice. Now it's free. Yeah, it's free. now with the training, now with the awareness, now with the expansive conversations we have, not just in the fire service, but in our in our households, in our communities, now you can start to see in and it's so refreshing to see the advice and the guidance and the support that's there for people in the fire service. So my advice to new officers, ten year officers, is to embrace that, build on it and start Baking that in into your culture where it becomes part of the norm. And it's not such a big mystery and it doesn't have this fear and anxiety tied to it. Wow, create answer. It's really been great talking to you. It it's wonderful for us because every guest brings their own unique approach and you certainly have yours. It's like a signature. and you have such a calming way about you. That I think is a presence a lot of people aren't used to in our world. So I really, really appreciated hearing everything you said, but also just your demeanor and your delivery and how you gave us all of these great nuggets today. I wanna thank you so much for your time. Absolutely. It's been such a pleasure. I let's applaud you on the work that you're doing and and bringing the message of healing, recovery, and lived experience storytelling to the audience. Yeah, I want to say thank you also. we've really started to try to bring the voices of of chief level officers to our conversations here because for f for various for various reasons, but most importantly that you know, you are leading departments w and in your case a large department that is you know we're going through changes together as a fire service, but we really need to see leaders like yourself who are embracing the change and embracing this new conversation, embracing new ways of doing things that have not in the past served us terrifying terribly well. So I want to thank you for all that you do and for being here with us today to have this conversation. Thank you so much. It means the world to me. Remember to like and subscribe. YouTube respond resilience, Facebook responder TV, we're a LinkedIn Apple Podcast with Spotify and our website is respondertv.com. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.