Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Control Issues? How To Know If You're The Problem | Love | E555

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Control Issues? How To Know If You're The Problem | Love | E555 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 1: and success, y'all. That's how it's done. Now on with
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  Speaker 1: the show.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: If I've learned from my childhood to yell when things
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: aren't going my way, well, then that's what I've learned
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: and that's what I do.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Is someone's control issues creating friction, conflict, or unhappiness.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: In your relationship?
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  Speaker 2: Yelling. cussing, not talking to your partner for hours or
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: days at a time, becoming extremely defensive and justifying behaviors, drinking,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: substance use.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe your control issues, just saying. You know, this is
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a really common problem. People struggling over power, control, whose
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: way is the right way. It's a very common problem
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: that we frequently see in couples counseling. And the good
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: news is that there is a way through it.
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  Speaker 2: It's to control a level of anxiety or something deeper
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  Speaker 2: inside of you.
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  Speaker 1: So I would say.
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  Speaker 2: Most behaviors that clients come to therapists for are often
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  Speaker 2: maladaptive control techniques.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: By the end of today's episode of Love, Happiness, and Success,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you're going to have new visibility into the deeper patterns
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  Speaker 1: that lead to air quote control issues, what it really means,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: by the way, and how to understand this with compassion
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: and courage, and importantly, how to make positive changes in
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  Speaker 1: the way you think, the way you feel, and the
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: way you behave with each other so that you can
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  Speaker 1: get back on the same page and make sure that
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: there's space for both of you in your healthy partnership.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: If this is your first time tuning in, hello, I'm
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: so glad you're here. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby.
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  Speaker 1: My background, I'm a psychologist. I am a licensed marriage
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and family therapist. I'm also a board certified coach, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm here every week on Love, Happiness, and Success to
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  Speaker 1: talk about you, your growth, your desire for a nice life,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: a beautiful relationship, a satisfying career, and everything we talk
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: about is in service of that, including today's episode. And
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  Speaker 1: I could not be more excited about today because we're
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: bringing in a real expert on this topic. my friend
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  Speaker 1: and colleague Seth Bender. He, like me, is a licensed
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: marriage family therapist who also practices evidence-based coaching strategies to
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  Speaker 1: not just treat and heal, but give you real world
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  Speaker 1: actionable things you can do to translate the things you're
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: talking about in the work into actual changes in your relationship,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: changes that stick. And Seth, we both know we hear
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  Speaker 1: an awful lot about power struggles related to control that
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  Speaker 1: create a lot of problems in relationships. So let's just
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  Speaker 1: start right there.
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  Speaker 2: We see negative behaviors, whatever those may be like shutting
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  Speaker 2: down or yelling or being argumentative, getting defensive, whatever it
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  Speaker 2: may be. Those are really about control rather than connection.
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  Speaker 2: So in, in, What's interesting about that, though, is that
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  Speaker 2: their control is something everybody inherently needs to feel.
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  Speaker 1: Agency.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: To influence outcomes.
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  Speaker 2: To influence outcomes. Absolutely. And we see it most often
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  Speaker 2: as negative behaviors, which is what we would, which what
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  Speaker 2: we'll be getting into today more of than the others.
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  Speaker 2: But for positive behaviors, control matters. is often the subconscious goal.
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  Speaker 2: So to give you an example of that, so studying
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  Speaker 2: for a test, for example, is a positive behavior. I
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  Speaker 2: don't think anyone would argue otherwise, but you're trying to
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  Speaker 2: influence an outcome by studying for that test. You're trying
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  Speaker 2: to pass a test.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. If I study, then I will do well.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. And then if I do well, then I'll get
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: that promotion or I'll get that license or I'll get
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: that or whatever it might be.
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  Speaker 1: Graduate school someday.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Pay off my student loan.
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  Speaker 2: Or if you have a infant and that baby is crying,
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  Speaker 2: when you're soothing them, yes, you're trying to build comfort
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  Speaker 2: and connection, but it's also about control. You're trying to
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  Speaker 2: help your baby feel better in the moment by comforting them.
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  Speaker 2: And there is a control element to that, even though
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  Speaker 2: it's a very positive thing. loving and connecting behavior. So
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  Speaker 2: it's always there in some way. So what I've been
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  Speaker 2: kind of seeing is that, okay, where do we learn
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  Speaker 2: about that? And where do we learn about control? And
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  Speaker 2: where do we learn about how it works and how
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  Speaker 2: it doesn't work? And we do learn about it in
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  Speaker 2: negative ways through various examples and reasons and whatnot, but
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  Speaker 2: it's always in the backdrop. So the key is, okay,
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  Speaker 2: Is my controlling behavior affecting things negatively? Okay.
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  Speaker 1: And so we're absolutely going to talk about that because
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  Speaker 1: I think we can all consider examples. But I just
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  Speaker 1: want to pause here and restate this really important point
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  Speaker 1: that you're making, Seth, because I feel like in our culture,
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  Speaker 1: you know, to have control or to be controlling, there
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  Speaker 1: are so many negative connotations associated with that.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: What you're saying is that at the heart of A
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  Speaker 1: desire to influence outcomes, to have agency in your own life,
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  Speaker 1: to say, I mean, really the psychological term for it,
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  Speaker 1: that locus of control.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: If I do this, then that will happen is such
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  Speaker 1: a not just normal, but really healthy, I would say
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  Speaker 1: necessary thing. Because without that trust that you can do
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  Speaker 1: something to influence outcomes, that's a whole other set of problems, right? Right.
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  Speaker 2: Learned helplessness.
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  Speaker 1: Victimization, feeling like you don't have any agency. So to
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  Speaker 1: have some control, that belief in that is good.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. And it's about survival sometimes. And that's where it
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  Speaker 2: all stemmed from, from a anthropological perspective here, which is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, thousands of years ago, the war was a
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  Speaker 2: very dangerous place and we had to be very hypervigilant
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  Speaker 2: about perceived dangers. And doing that and adapting to that
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  Speaker 2: helped the human race survive, right? So on one hand,
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  Speaker 2: it's deeply ingrained in all people, both men and women,
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  Speaker 2: to we're just trying to stay safe. And we're trying
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  Speaker 2: to stay alive, for lack of a better way of
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  Speaker 2: saying it. And what can happen, though, is when we start,
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  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, when we start perceiving dangers that aren't
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  Speaker 2: quite what we might think they are, Or if we've
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  Speaker 2: learned maladaptive ways of trying to ask for or assert
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  Speaker 2: that control, that's when we run into trouble that can
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  Speaker 2: affect relationships, that can affect lives, and that can affect
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  Speaker 2: our overall happiness and feeling of safety within this world
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  Speaker 2: because it can backfire and it often does. And that's
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  Speaker 2: what we see in our work. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's crack into this. And also, thank you, too,
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  Speaker 1: for reminding us all That even when control gets intense,
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  Speaker 1: it's coming for a reason.
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  Speaker 2: There is fear.
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  Speaker 1: There's vigilance. There's a desire for self-protection or we're trying
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: to reduce anxiety through control. Like that's very well known.
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  Speaker 1: And I appreciate you for just bringing the heart back
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  Speaker 1: into it. But the other controlling people can also that
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  Speaker 1: that is a bad person or that's like a character flaw.
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  Speaker 1: And thank you for the reminder that.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
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  Speaker 1: There's actually a lot of compassion when control is happening
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  Speaker 1: that we should all tap into.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So thank you. And it can get kind of ugly.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, at extreme versions it can get very ugly.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: So what are some of the things that you've seen
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  Speaker 1: when control is creating problems?
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  Speaker 2: You can look at any maladaptive behavior. Whether we look
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  Speaker 2: at Gottman's Four Horsemen, criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt. Those
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  Speaker 2: are the main categories there. But any behavior that is
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  Speaker 2: actually harming the situation or reducing trust in you. Or
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  Speaker 2: creating a situation where your relationship is now changed in
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  Speaker 2: a negative way because of what has happened. And this
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  Speaker 2: could be anything you can think of. Yelling, cussing, not
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: talking to your partner for hours or days at a time,
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  Speaker 2: becoming extremely defensive and justifying behaviors, drinking, substance use.
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  Speaker 1: Hmm.
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  Speaker 2: Because oftentimes when that's occurring, it's to control a level
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  Speaker 2: of anxiety or something deeper inside of you. So I
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  Speaker 2: would say most behaviors that clients come to therapists for
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  Speaker 2: are often maladaptive control techniques. So if I've learned from
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  Speaker 2: my childhood to yell when things aren't going my way, well,
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  Speaker 2: then that's what I've learned and that's what I do.
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  Speaker 2: It feels natural because that's what I learned, even though
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  Speaker 2: I probably didn't like it when I was a kid.
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  Speaker 2: But then we do it and it creates a situation
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  Speaker 2: where your partner feels less safe because of what you're
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  Speaker 2: trying to do to control the situation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is an interesting reframe, you know, because
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  Speaker 1: I think, well, and I'm hearing this systemic thing here, Seth,
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  Speaker 1: that as a marriage and family therapist, I know you're
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  Speaker 1: so well-versed in, but I think it can be tempting
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  Speaker 1: to think of something like yelling as a spontaneous reaction
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  Speaker 1: to a situation. You feel angry, therefore you yell. But
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  Speaker 1: what you're saying is that a lot of the relational
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  Speaker 1: patterns people engage in are actually ways to try to
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  Speaker 1: control the situation, get what they want, influence other people
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  Speaker 1: like yelling or even the silent treatment. I will punish
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  Speaker 1: you with my silence if you don't do what I
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  Speaker 1: want or that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And sometimes that's a conscious decision, you know, and
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  Speaker 2: sometimes it's a very subconscious decision and some clients don't
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  Speaker 2: realize that it's happening and that's, and neither way is ideal,
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  Speaker 2: but it's, in my experience with clients, it's most often
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  Speaker 2: not intentional.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes it is. And then we're having different conversations, but
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  Speaker 2: it's usually not intentional. It's usually not for the purpose
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  Speaker 2: of harming your partner. It's usually for the purpose of
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  Speaker 2: my body, my mind's feeling something and I need to
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  Speaker 2: do something to soothe that. And what soothes that is
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  Speaker 2: to feel a sense of control of the situation.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and that's another good takeaway. I mean, you,
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned, and I know that we'll go deeper into this,
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  Speaker 1: but when there are a lot of controlling behaviors that
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  Speaker 1: are present, it really can damage the trust in a relationship,
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  Speaker 1: damage people's sense of emotional safety with each other when
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  Speaker 1: they feel like they're being controlled by their partner in
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  Speaker 1: a way that doesn't feel good to them or healthy. However,
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  Speaker 1: step one of changing any of this It's getting visibility
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  Speaker 1: into it. And what you just said is most of
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  Speaker 1: the time people aren't even aware that they're doing it
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: and they're not doing it on purpose. So take us
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  Speaker 1: into some signs that you might be on the more
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  Speaker 1: controlling end of the spectrum, not because you want to be,
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  Speaker 1: but like, how do we get visibility into that?
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  Speaker 2: There's quite a few ways. I would say most often people,
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  Speaker 2: what you would get it from is from other people's feedback,
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  Speaker 2: from other people telling you, hey, and they may not
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  Speaker 2: even use the words, hey, you are being controlling, but
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  Speaker 2: if people are often telling you, hey, the things you
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  Speaker 2: say and the way you're reacting is making me uncomfortable,
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  Speaker 2: making me feel unsafe, then that external validation piece right there,
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  Speaker 2: if someone telling you, hey, that really, really hurt me
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  Speaker 2: or that really scared me or whatever it might be,
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  Speaker 2: You would often get it from the person who is
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  Speaker 2: the recipient of that behavior. Now, not always because sometimes
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  Speaker 2: people don't express that when it happens, which is also
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  Speaker 2: a form of control, but that's neither here nor there.
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  Speaker 2: It's everywhere. But no, oftentimes your partner will let you know, hey,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: when we argue, I feel like you're alone. I feel
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: like I can't talk to you. I'm trying to tell
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  Speaker 2: you something that's important to me and you don't even
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  Speaker 2: respond to me. Well, if people are telling you things
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  Speaker 2: like that and telling you consistently, well, then that's something
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  Speaker 2: to consider. And then, and that's something to hear.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Well, can I just make like one point really quick?
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  Speaker 1: Because I feel like this is so important, Seth. And
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  Speaker 1: this can be so hard to tease apart because like,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: you know, as you're saying this, you're saying it is
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: so incredibly important to accept feedback from other people. And
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: when you're getting signals from people that you're in relationships
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: with that are not having a good time, the way
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  Speaker 1: you are reacting or what you're doing is like feeling
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: problematic to them. Yeah. We have to take that seriously.
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  Speaker 1: And at the same time, I think that there's so
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  Speaker 1: much in our culture and sometimes justified that you're being
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  Speaker 1: invalidated or if your partner... is, is saying, you know, you're,
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  Speaker 1: you're overreacting. I don't like it when you respond to
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  Speaker 1: me that way. Are we interpreting that as they're gaslighting us?
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  Speaker 1: They're minimizing us. They're not hearing what I'm trying to say. Right.
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  Speaker 1: And so then there almost becomes this like power struggle
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  Speaker 1: again around, you know, do I need to accept influence
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  Speaker 1: from them and listen to them saying like, I don't
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: like this, but you know what, here's what's really upsetting
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  Speaker 1: me right now. And I feel like they're not hearing
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: me because, and this is where it just gets so
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: darn hard to tease apart and In my experience, professionally
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and also personally, I think it's usually a both and. Like,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I have some things I probably need to let in.
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  Speaker 1: And also, I probably have some feelings and perspective that
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: need to be heard as well.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Would you say that that's fair? Because I think that's
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: where it gets hard. We start fighting about who's right.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. And we have a saying in couples therapy, you
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: can be right or you can be married.
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  Speaker 1: Right. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, because oftentimes the feedback piece is coming as
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: a trigger behavior itself.
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  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And so then if that awareness isn't there. Or if
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: that's triggering someone more than you start playing emotional table
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: tennis with your partner.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It turns into this is my perspective. Yeah. But this
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: is why I did that, which is justification and defensiveness.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So you hit it back to your partner. They hit
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: it back to you. They hit it back. And eventually
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: someone's going to hit the ball really hard.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Right. Too hard.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so oftentimes the feedback is not coming
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: in a way that feels safe to hear either. So
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it is the and but there piece because there's just
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: so much going on with it other than just that
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: particular conversation.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Well, and honestly, like what you're talking about, I think
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: is what We as relationship coaches, MFTs who are relationship coaches,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: that's oftentimes like the very first thing that we need
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: to do is help people slow down enough and just
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: start understanding each other and being able to let in
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: how the other person is actually feeling, even when they
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: disagree with it. And that can be challenging, even for us.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And I just want to say this out loud to
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: anybody listening, if you can relate to what Seth and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I are talking about, trying to get through that on
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: your own can be real hard, especially if it's in
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: this entrenched cycle where it's been happening a long time,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: a trust has been broken. And even in facilitated situations
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: with somebody like me or Seth sitting in the room,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: it can still be hard. But that is step number one.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And to have somebody like Seth being like, stop what
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: did you just heard her say? What did, what would
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: it mean for you if that was actually true? That's
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: literally how she's feeling right now. That can create like a,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: a connection with it that can change things experientially. And sorry,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: not to keep going up. I have to say one
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: more thing, Seth. Like, I think that that's one of
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the things that concerns me about, you know, what I
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: see happening right now. Like the past, it was social media.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I think now It's like AI, right? There's a lot
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: of advice being given. And what you're doing, it has
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with information. It's not advice. It's experiential.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: You are constructing new experiences for people where they are like, oh,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: they're having, yeah. And that's powerful stuff. So I just
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: wanted to acknowledge that.
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  Speaker 2: And thank you. And to piggyback off of that is like,
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: If you haven't learned about emotional communication and if that
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: wasn't modeled for you when you were young. that type
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: of slowing down, which I agree is the first step,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: that type of slowing down and letting the other person's
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: perspective and the listening piece and self-control piece becomes very,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: very difficult. And we see that a lot. We see
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: that a lot. And a lot of people that I've
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: worked with just haven't known that there's other ways to
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: do it. Absolutely.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And I see that. I just want to relate to
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: what you're saying. And so what you're talking about right now, Seth,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: are emotional intelligence competencies. How do I feel? How do
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I manage this in a healthy and effective way? How
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: does the other person feel? And then how do I
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: respond to that in a constructive way? Four different things.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Who learns that? I didn't learn that. And so like
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, you get people in couples counseling
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: or relationship coaching, and that's where we have to actually
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: start because otherwise, ugh, sat there so much here. And
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: so what we're talking about are all of the things
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: that contribute to their, quote, control issues in relationships. And
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: we need to take a super fast break. But on
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the other side, can we dive more deeply– into the
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: control pieces more specifically, what they look like and how
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: to start changing them.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I would love that.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: If you're a creative person with amazing ideas about all
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the things we could do, you know the pain, the
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: frustration that comes when you run right into the wall
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: of figuring out how to actualize them. And that is
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: why I'm such a fan of Shopify. Shopify makes it easy.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: It has templates and AI tools to get you a
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: stunning website up and running fast. No coding required. Shopify
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: checkout means more customers actually buy what you're selling. And
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: returning ones can do it in a single click. Located
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: in one. easy-to-use platform. Shopify handles the setup, the checkout,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: so people like you and me have more time to
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: focus on growth and our next great idea. Just sign
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: in and start managing all aspects of your new business
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: right away. If you're ready to hear the of your
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: first sale today, head right on over to shopify.com slash
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: LHS to start your free trial today. Start your free
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: trial at shopify.com slash LHS. That is shopify.com slash LHS.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I sat down to record a promo for our valued sponsor, Quince,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: and realized once again, I am wearing a Quince dress
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to work. These are my favorite clothes. They're fantastic because
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: they're elevating everyday essentials in a really luxurious way. Like
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: my cotton cashmere midi dress that I have on right now,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: but even things like Mongolian cashmere and washable silk. These
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: again and again. They are priced literally 50-80% less than
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: cut out the middleman. Find the fall pieces you'll reach
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: offers or go to quince.com slash LHS to get free
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash L-H-S. Friends,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: we're back with my very special guest, my friend and colleague,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: Seth Bender. He is also a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: And he's here with us today to talk about this
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: very common thing when there are control issues present in
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: a relationship on one side or the other, sometimes both,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: and how we can see this, how we can understand it,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: but most importantly, how we can reduce it so that
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: there's more emotional safety and connection for both people. So Seth,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: just before we took a break, we were going more
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: deeply under the hood to explore what causes control issues, right? Anxiety,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: feeling threatened, a desire to influence outcomes, and also talking
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: about how not knowing how else to communicate sometimes can
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: really contribute to this. And some of the like just
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: core questions competencies, even things like emotional intelligence can be
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: a big part of this. And thank you for that.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: But on the other side, I'd love to hear more
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: about what you've seen control look like in relationships and
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: some of the problems that it causes just so that
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we can increase visibility. And from there, we'll start to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: talk about maybe what to do instead. Yeah.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And you'll see it most often in differences of opinion
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of whatever topic it might be Like, what's the best
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: way to parent my child? Oh, yeah. Or what do
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: we do in this situation when this appliance is broken?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: What if we get a new one?
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, and I don't say that flippantly, though,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: because differences of opinion and conflict happens every day. Happens
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: every day, even if it's small, you know. And, you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: so it usually stems from when you and your partner
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: aren't agreeing about something. You're not in agreement. That's when
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: I see it most when it comes to a relational
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: piece where we're trying to subconsciously control our environment to
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: get our version of right to be the action piece
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: is where I see that most.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: All right. So, and I mean, I think we can
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: all relate to this.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: My goodness.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have different opinions about the right answer,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the right way to handle a situation or where the
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: kids should go to school or whatever, parenting styles. And then,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: so that, I mean, of course we all have different opinions,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: but you're saying that it starts to turn into problematic
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: control when you begin perhaps campaigning for your way to
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: be the way we do things. And so help us
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: figure out where that line is between advocating for your
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: preferences or no, really, here's what I think might be
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: a better idea. Here's why in a constructive way, right?
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Like exchanging information versus a unhealthy desire to influence a
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: situation that's maybe not making space for the needs, rights,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and feelings of your partner.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I think the line is how much control you have
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: over yourself in the moment.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Where if you Some people go offline when they're disagreed
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: with or when they're pushed too hard or whatever terminology
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: you want to use, right? So I think the key is, okay,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: so consciously, what am I trying to do here? Am
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I trying to express how I feel and what I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: need and try to meet in the middle? Or am
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I trying to dominate a situation? And usually when you're
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: trying to dominate and just have your way be the
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: way that you're usually triggered. And there's ways to kind
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: of determine, I mean, I'm a big fan of using
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: somatic symptoms to determine when you're triggered because- Somatic what? Symptoms.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Symptoms. Where, you know, when basically I call them rattlesnake rattles,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: where if someone's feeling unsafe, then they're rattlesnake rattle. That's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: what rattlesnakes do when they're feeling unsafe, that they rattle
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: the tails.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Well, some people, when they're feeling unsafe, their neck gets stiff.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Or sometimes when people feel unsafe, they feel it in
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: their stomach or they get sweaty palms or, you know,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: or they may not be aware of it at all.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: But the question is, what is your mind and body
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: doing in that moment? And so if it goes from,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I'm controlling how I react and I'm trying to handle
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: this in a way that works for both of us
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: to self-interest.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Because you're feeling threatened. Exactly. That rattlesnake rattle. I am
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: feeling threatened right now.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Subconsciously. Okay.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Or maybe even consciously in certain situations.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: But it's like, hey, there's something unsafe about this interaction.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: And there's something unsafe about my point of view being
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: challenged like this. And then your body will respond to
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: that because that's attached to your emotional body too. And
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: then before you know it, you're in a trigger behavior
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: that you may not even know that you're doing.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: So I think there's ways to become more aware of
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: that threshold. And it's different for every person. I mean,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: it's never a one size fits all because we all
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: have different somatic symptoms, period. But I think the self-awareness
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: piece helps you determine what it is. And, you know,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: as a therapist, that's what we do. We try to
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: help you determine where that locus is and when it
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: gets crossed.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, and I'm thinking too, I mean, certainly in
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: your work as a therapist, one of your subspecialties is
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: actually trauma treatment. I mean, you do a lot of EMDR,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: which is when someone has had a capital T trauma,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: how to metabolize all that so that people are less triggered,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: which is so fascinating. But I know a lot of
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: times in your work too, you're doing relationship coaching, which
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: is helping people understand their patterns, their triggers, their subconscious, like,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: why do I do that? And what do I need
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: to do differently in order to get a better result?
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: But to your point, there can be first we need
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: to understand where this is coming from because if you
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: are getting flooded and feeling threatened in relatively neutral situations
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: because of an unresolved trauma history, that actually requires treatment
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: in order to be resolved so that you can then
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: have enough control over yourself in order to do things
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: differently versus someone who, you know, maybe they, their family
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: didn't model particularly effective communication or they have some associations
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: with things. There's not like a, trauma in which case
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of times we can just help you notice
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: what's happening right here and then practice honestly doing things
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: differently so that they get the results they want so
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: thank you for explaining some of that.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Sure and you mentioned the trauma piece which is so
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: important because when with significant trauma it gets trapped in
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: the brain and affects how we perceive and when we
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and that's a big part of the control piece is
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: like if we perceive danger we're going to try to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: control most likely in a negative way and, or in
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: a way that that's the easiest way to get out
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: of that situation, which is often negative. And so, yeah,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: it often can come from trauma that's been unresolved or
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: it can come from your attachment history with, with your
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: family growing up, how they handle conflict, how you went
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: about emotions and what you internalize and learn from that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: It can happen a lot to just from general socialization with, with,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: with friends and partners and you know, how, those experiences
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: mold how you handle your own stuff. And because, you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: you're always having someone else's stuff thrown at you, which
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: inflames your own. And then what do you do with that?
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: And so there's, it comes from a very complex kind
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: of like way of doing it, but it's usually evolving
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: some sort of trauma or some sort of attachment pain
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: that's been internalized that's deep in you that gets triggered.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So interesting. And I just, I love this whole
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: conversation around such a compassionate point of view around that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: It makes sense, but there's this threat that has been
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: activated and that what it looks like though, is then
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: people trying to really fight for dominance in a way
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that is problematic. It is not consensual. It is not
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: taking their partner's feelings into account. And it, it creates
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: damage to the trust in the relationship, but that's what
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it really is, is a needing to be in charge
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: of whatever happens next. So, okay. We need to take
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: another super fast break, Seth, but on the other side,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: I want, okay, there's two things. So in our other conversations,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I've actually heard you talk about some of your observations
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: that men can be more vulnerable to this process. Although I,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I have my fair share of controlling women. I'm just
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: going to say that out loud.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I have too. All right.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Good. So this is gender. But anyway, we can talk
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: about both sides of this. But also, we cannot end
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: this podcast without some of your guidance and recommendations around
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: What people can start to do differently if they notice
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: these patterns happening in their relationship, whether or not they're
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the ones who are fighting for dominance or if they're
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: experiencing this from their partner in a way that doesn't
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: feel good. Can we do that after the break?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: If you're a creative person with amazing ideas about all
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: the things we could do, you know the pain, the
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: frustration that comes when you run right into the wall
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: of figuring out how to actualize them. And that is
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: why I'm such a fan of Shopify. Shopify makes it easy.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: It has templates and AI tools to get you a
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: stunning website up and running fast. No coding required. Shopify
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: checkout means more customers actually buy what you're selling. And
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: returning ones can do it in a single click. Located
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: in one. easy to use platform. Shopify handles the setup,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the checkout, so people like you and me have more
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: time to focus on growth and our next great idea.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Just sign in and start managing all aspects of your
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: new business right away. If you're ready to hear the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: of your first sale today, head right on over to shopify.com
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: slash LHS to start your free trial today. Start your
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: free trial at shopify.com slash LHS. That is shopify.com slash LHS.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I sat down to record a promo for our valued sponsor, Quince,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: and realized once again, I am wearing a Quince dress
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: to work. These are my favorite clothes. They're fantastic because
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: they're elevating everyday essentials in a really luxurious way, like
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: my cotton cashmere midi dress that I have on right now,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: but even things like Mongolian cashmere and washable silk. These
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: again and again. They are priced literally 50-80% less than
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: cut out the middleman. Find the fall pieces you'll reach
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: offers or go to quince.com slash LHS to get free
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash L-H-S.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys for making a couple moments for our valued,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: values-aligned sponsors without whom the show would not be possible.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: And now we're back with Seth Bender, licensed marriage and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: family therapist, who's here to show us the way forward. Seth,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about controlling dynamics in relationships, why they happen,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the kinds of problems they cause. But most importantly, now
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what to do differently. Where
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: do we even be? And also, are there different remedies
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: if there's sort of gender variables at play?
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: For people in opposite sex relationships.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: There's lots of ways to skin the cat. And depending
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: on the therapist, you'll get different ideas.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Or a coach.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Or a coach, yes.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: If you work with me, I'd coach.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Or a coach. How I usually work
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: it with a client or a client couple that's needing
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: guidance with this is... First, I get information about the background,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: about their attachment histories and things like that.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Why does this make sense?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And I try to map out their interaction with
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the EFT cycle, the emotionally focused therapy cycle, to learn
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: more about the layers of this. Okay, the behavior is
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: really just the top level. You're also looking at the
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: belief system that's creating the behavior, the emotions that are
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: fueling the belief system, and then the need that's not
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: being met at that moment. Which usually comes from your
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: childhood from your parents. And so first we get information
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: about that. And that in itself is really illuminating for
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: a lot of clients because they've never really thought about
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: it that way. Yeah. And they've never seen a map
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: out like that. And they're like, oh, I didn't know
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: that was happening with my partner. I didn't know that
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: was happening with me. Right. But now I know. So
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of information that's often transformative because clients
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: have never really.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Who has?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Attached in that way.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I do that. And can I also
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: just say, we have to say this out loud, Seth,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: for the benefit of our listeners, is also in this
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: assessment process, people like you and me, we're also listening
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: for over the threshold of even a little bit okay
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: power and control issues that might be consistent with domestic
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: violence or intimate partner violence because power and control is
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: really at the heart of that.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: But we are in.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: A capital A abusive relationship. Control is being expressed through violence, coercion.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's all kinds of things. And it is
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: not okay to do couples counseling or relationship coaching if
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: In the context of domestic violence or abuse, it is
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: not safe. And I just want to say this out
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: loud because, Seth, you know, unfortunately, as I know you
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: well know, many people, when they do reach out for
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: help for their relationship, 5% of therapists are actually licensed
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapists, meaning that they have specialized training
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: in couples and family therapy specifically. Most mental health professionals don't,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: and they don't. Don't know enough to know that you're
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: not supposed to do that. So there are real risks
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: for coming into even the therapist's office with an abusive
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: partner and trying to have open conversations around what's going
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: on because there can be very severe consequences. on the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: other side of that. So I just say that out
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: loud for our friends with us so that they can
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: make informed choices and to know what to do. And
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: if you are in a very serious power and control
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: situation where people are getting hurt, what you should do
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: instead is access a free resource called the hotline.org All
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: one word, thehotline.org. And you can get immediate access by phone,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: by text to trained domestic violence counselors who can learn
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: more about your situation, help you make a safety plan,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: get you access to the right kind of help in
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: your community, sometimes even get out of the house. So
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: thank you for giving me space to share that resource.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Of course. And thank you for reminding everyone of that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: because it's crucially important. Yeah.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: That's a different thing.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: We're talking about garden variety control issues in relationships.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: So once we map it out, my goal is to
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: shift the focus of the client from controlling other people
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: or the environment to controlling themselves. So not controlling my
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: partner or my friend or whatever. I need to control
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: me because that's the only thing you truly have. control
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: over 100% of the time it is yourself. So I
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: generally start with that awareness piece with the somatic symptoms,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: which we mentioned before and working on practicable techniques to
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: help people manage the beliefs and thoughts that are leading
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: to many of the behaviors, cognitive behavioral therapy techniques that are,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: that are practical that way. I do a lot of
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: grounding and, I do a lot of DBT work as
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: well to help calm the nervous system. Because when people
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: are triggered, their nervous system and their limbic system is
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: just completely offline. So that's the scientific symptom of it, basically.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: And developing basic skills to calm yourself down so that
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: you can.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: And, you know, and we practice these in sessions. There's
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: literally thousands of them. I have ones that I prefer.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: And then deeper ones are needed. I have this tooth.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Why am I EMDR work? So that's that piece too.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: So the first step is, hey, realizing I'm starting to
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: lose control here. I'm starting, I can feel my neck
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: tightening up. I can feel this desire to start doing
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: things and saying things that may.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Not be healthy here.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: So I need to do something about that first. And
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: also being able to communicate that with your partner in
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: the moment. And I love time out some code words
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: because those are helpful with that too. But, you know,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Basically letting it be known, hey, I know I'm losing
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: control right now. Let me take care of me so
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: I can continue this conversation.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Just to ask, would you ever advise a partner
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: on the other side of this equation who's noticing activated,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: starting to go into like controlling stuff? Is it ever
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: helpful to say it looks like you're having a big
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: reaction to what's happening right now? I'm wondering if you're
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: feeling threatened by what's happening right now or do you
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: feel like that's not? Not going to end well.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: It depends. In certain situations, I wouldn't recommend that. If
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: it feels like it's gone from zero to 100, that
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: can be ineffective and it can actually inflame things. Yeah.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: If it doesn't feel that scary or dangerous, then that
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: could work. I think in this situation, I think code
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: words work better than full sentences. A, because they're easier
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: to say in the moment when you're upset. But also,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: it just conveys, hey, we have an agreement. Every time
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: we say this word, we stop talking and we take
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: care of ourselves. So you don't necessarily have to get
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: into the context of, I noticed this.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: And maybe that's what you do after you both calm
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: down and come back.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Good point. Yeah. Because people are flooded.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: But, you know, the assumption here is that there would
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: have been conversations where you're both saying, this is a
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: problem when we go here. And so we have a
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: safe word. And when this happens, we're all going to
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: back off.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And, you know, and often sometimes we give those
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: instructions and model that and then it happens. It doesn't work.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: You know, so we then there's other conversations to have. But.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: And there's things to explore to look at. But, you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: I think the answer to that question is it just
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: depends on the situation and the person. Some people are
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: open to that feedback in the moment. Some people just aren't.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's where the communication piece really
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: comes into play. It's like, okay, partner, what would work
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: for you if I noticed this? What can I say
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: to you that will help? Or what can I do
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: that will help when I notice this? Because sometimes it's
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: not even... something you say, some people just want to
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: be held or hugged in that situation, which is just
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: as effective for some people. So I think there's a
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: lot of discovery with that, which is, okay, so how
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: do I, so I know this is what I would
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: respond to well, but I don't want to make the
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: assumption that's what my partner would, because then that's where
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: we'd run into more trouble. And that's where the love
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: language piece comes into play too.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: But there's also just so much compassion on this, Seth,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: because it's really like the to understand that when your
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: partner becomes controlling and is maybe acting in aggressive and
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: unpleasant ways that we are reinterpreting this as a sign
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: that they are flooded, they're anxious, they're threatened. And that's
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: just such a more compassionate way of looking at the
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: same situation as opposed to how dare you, I'm going
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: to fight back.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: And all the things that go along with absolutely yeah
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: and then once people are calm or calmer and they're
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: back online and they can actually try to have a
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: conversation again i give a lot of communication work a
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: lot of guided communication work that to make the to
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: make the conversations feel safer i use something called act
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: communication which is something that went on my internship and
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: i think it's very effective very similar to soft and
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: startup but it's it's it's not quite the same thing
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: but uh Well, what is it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: key here, what you're doing is you're trying to communicate
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: in a way that will foster understanding and attachment rather
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: than control. So you, and the way you do it
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: is you express the emotion you're feeling in the moment
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: without playing.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Giving a little context about that, why that happens and
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: why that matters.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling frustrated.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling frustrated when blankety blank happens. And there's reasons
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: for this. And I want to let you know what
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: they are. So you're opening the door a little bit
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: with this communication and saying, okay, this is how I'm feeling.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: And when you own the emotion, that's, that's so much
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: more effective because your partner doesn't feel blamed or attacked
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: for the emotion.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: It's not, you are frustrating.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: I am feeling frustrated. And I say, avoid the word
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: you the best you can, because it's finger pointing. It's like,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: you do this and then I do this and I
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: don't want to do that. Right. But, um, and so, um,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: express the emotion, express the need, I'm sorry, express the
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: context and then express what you need in that moment
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: to feel safer. And you say it as calmly as
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you can. And the way you know that your partner
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: heard that is that they repeat it back to you.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: And so that way you can hear what they heard
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and what they didn't hear. And if they didn't hear
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: something important, you're like, okay, no, you got most of that,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: but there's one piece I want you to hear again
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: that I need you to hear again. So you say
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: that piece and you make sure it's understood. So, it really,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: it gets to the heart of the issue. If you
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: look at the EFT cycle, you're getting down to the
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: emotional needs part rather than the behavior part. Because if
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: you argue behaviors, you'll never get anywhere. No.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: And let me just restate that for all of our
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: friends here listening to us. So what Seth is talking
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: about is this is how I feel. This is the
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: context around, you know, what, why I feel the way
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: that I feel. And here is what I, need from
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: you emotionally. And it is not. So that's why I
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: need you to do what I want, because that is
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: just a reinforcement of this controlling behavior. It is.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: And so this is, can I please have a hug
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: kind of territory?
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What you're doing with this method is you're making yourself,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: you're like, hey, I really need this from you right now.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. I am feeling threatened. I'm feeling activated anxious and
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: and just i need to know that you still care
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: about me even if we run your plan instead of mine.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: But also the thing to remember is that a trigger
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: behavior is a symptom of that need not being met
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: in that moment yeah okay so it's it's like hey
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: you haven't talked to me in eight hours okay well
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: that's a trigger behavior the need that hasn't been met
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: leads to trigger behavior. So if you express the need
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: and get that mapped, and if you express it in
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: a safe way and it's heard in a safe way,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: and you suddenly get that need met, that triggered behavior
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: theoretically would lessen. Okay.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: And so, and I, I know we're up on time, Seth,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: and we have to go, but okay, let me ask
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you one more thing. Cause this, I think this is
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: also really important. Um, Like with what you were just
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: talking about, this is how I feel. This is why.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And so this is what I need from you. What
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: I've also seen are people that can sometimes have a
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: very like anxious attachment style who feel their default is
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that they, you know, they're, they're they need a lot
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: of confirmation and approval and reinforcement and all the things.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: And so I'm feeling really upset right now because I
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: texted you eight hours ago and you didn't text me back.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: And so what I need you to do is text
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: me back, whatever the thing is, because I need you
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: to respond to me. But then the other thing too,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear your thoughts about this. Many
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: times people who are really anxious, particularly like anxious attachment,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: they try to soothe themselves by getting other people to
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: meet their needs and show up in a way that
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: makes them feel better. And of course, I mean, in
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: a healthy relationship, we need to have some of that.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: But I'd love to hear your thoughts about where we
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: draw those lines related to, okay, I am feeling anxious
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: because of my stuff. And I know that my partner
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: is at work in a full day of back-to-back meetings
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: for 12 hours and actually can't text me back in
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the exact moment when I want them to. So how
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: do I manage myself or make space for the fact
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: that my partner's been talking to people all day long
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: and might not want to to talk to anyone, including me.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's okay because I'm not the only person
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: with feelings in this relationship. Do you know what I mean?
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: So how do we, because that in itself can be
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: a form of control, right?
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Meet my needs.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: How do you start to make sense of that? Figure
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: out who belongs to what.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Right. Well, I think the situation that you describe explains
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: a very common thing, which is, hey, I didn't text
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: you back because I couldn't. And it's construed as you
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: didn't text me back because you wouldn't.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: What is it okay to say? I didn't text you
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: back because I didn't want to.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it is.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't feel like it.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: It is. I don't, I'm not sure how far that
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: goes anyway, but it just.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: To your point, if it's causing your partner a lot
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: of pain, I.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Would say that's dismissive. But what, at the same time,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: What you're describing is a type of codependency.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Emotional enmeshment.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: I need you to do something so I feel better.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: So oftentimes what we'll all do in those situations is
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: kind of fall back on the emotional regulation piece that
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier with like the changing of the.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Beliefs and calming yourself down.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Also, if you're trying to find some self-care activities that
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: can help calm you in the moment, you know, things
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: that fill your cup, like talking to a friend or
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: going for a run or making yourself a cup of tea.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: or splashing cold water in your face, or it could
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: be something as simple as if you're in your office,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: you know, stretching for five minutes, you know, so something
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: to get your brain focused on something other than the
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: perceived wrong.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Right. And, you know, and kind of working that way
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: because that's a very common, it happens all the time.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: And, and, but going back to the trauma piece, if
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: someone has abandonment trauma in their past, That can be
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: triggered very easily and through no fault of anyone. It
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: just can happen. And in those situations, it can be
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: really difficult for both the person being triggered trying to
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: manage themselves and the person trying to attune because it
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: can often come out of nowhere when people aren't expecting it.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: And so sometimes in those situations, we recommend individual therapy.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: or coaching for someone who's struggling with that piece a
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: lot because sometimes that's the block to the control piece
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: being flattened out a bit because something's being triggered and
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: it's no one's fault. It's just happening and nothing seems
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: to be working with that. Then a different level of
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: care may be needed for that client to help them
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: get there.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: What a good point.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: But this happens all the time.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, this happens all the time. I see that
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: very situation in couples a lot.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, and it's so hard, right? Because there's this balance
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: between being responsive to a partner. But I mean, I've
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: seen so many situations where this emotional enmeshment, I need
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: you to be a certain way so that I feel
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: a certain way. And maybe that's it. If you need
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: your partner.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: to.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Do X, Y, Z so that you can feel a
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: certain way. You're like outsourcing your emotional regulation skills to
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: be dependent on what somebody else is doing or not doing.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I think that's something to look at because what can
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: happen is that even if somebody really cares about you
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: and wants to be there for you, if it's all
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: about you and helping you feel okay, that is disconnected
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: from what they also might be needing, right? That's where
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: it can get really sticky. So there's a lot here.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. And I'm going back to the example you use.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, if someone's in the office and meetings all
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: day for five hours and they can't, they can't get
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: to their phone to respond to a text.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Well, it needs to have some quiet time on the way. Right.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And then you're, so it's like, I think
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of times the person getting triggered with the
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: abandonment trauma in their head knows.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Hey, there's a, perfectly legitimate reason why they're not texting
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: me back but their body and their heart are telling
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: them something different and it can get overwhelming and yeah
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: that's a very common piece with this is like oftentimes
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: control is based off of a trauma response that needs
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: to be processed and healed.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Absolutely and also expectations about the way things should be
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: that may have been may not actually be helpful. Seth,
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: this has been an incredible conversation. I knew it would be.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: And I'm also feeling like we've just scratched the surface here.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much. And one of my big
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: takeaways from this conversation is that this is complex. And also,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: one of these things that our listeners here, our friends
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: who are with us, might also be sitting with, you know,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: if anybody tuning in, like, okay, three tips to like
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: be less controlling in your relationship or whatever. Like that's
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: actually not how this works, that there are like awarenesses,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: there are blind spots. There's this experiential journey of being
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: able to understand yourself and your partner and calm down
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: to even start to get a handle on how control
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: manifests and that these are layers that occur over time
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: and I think can probably be challenging to crack into
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: without a third party such as yourself shining a light
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: on that because I think we're so entrenched in our
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: own point of view that it's very difficult to see.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: This is hard.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: It's very hard. You said the word wears, which I
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: really resonate with because I kind of see it like
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: an onion. And there's so many layers to an onion.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: And there's so many layers to what control actually means
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: to people and what it symbolizes. It's like, okay, if
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not in control right now, what does it mean? Well,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: it probably means something bad might happen to me. And
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: then you're going to respond to that.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: So it happens in layers. It occurs over time. And
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: this is probably not the kind of thing you can
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: drop in and like, learn a few strategies and like,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: all good. It's probably... at least measured in months, if
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: not even longer, because this is really an internal transformation
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: that happens on deep levels.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, for the true growth that would lead to
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: feeling more confident and, for lack of a better way
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: of saying it, more in control over that piece for yourself,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it very often takes deeper work than just, hey,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: here's some tips. Not that these tips can't be effective,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: but if there's underlying stuff that traumas and hurts that
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: are leading to that, then those tips only go so
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: far because the hurt trauma is still there and it's
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: always going to fuel that reaction.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: That's so good. Well, thank you so much for spending
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: this time today. And I know we've gone a little
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: bit over, so I want to be respectful of your
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: time and let you go. But in the event that
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: somebody hearing this is like, wow, I've I want to
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: do this. I want to do this with my partner.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: And that Seth Bender knows what he's talking about. And Seth,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: you're so compassionate and so affirming. And can I also
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: just say this out loud? Counseling, even coaching, is such
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: a female-dominated profession, particularly in the relational space. And I
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: think that there can sometimes be so much value and
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: validation and a sense of safety in for many men
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: coming into this kind of work to be able to
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: work with a male therapist, a male coach, not always,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: sometimes men get triggered by other men. Like that's a
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: thing too, but I just appreciate who you are in
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: this space and what you do. And so if somebody
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: wanted to work with you, what's the next step? They
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: could come to growingself.com slash forward slash Seth. But like,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: what does that look like when you meet with somebody
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: for the first time? I know it's a free consultation
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: and what goes on there?
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, uh, we, It depends on how much information I
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: have beforehand that's given. So sometimes we go in cold
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: and sometimes we have a lot more information. So that's
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: good to know. But really what I'm trying to do
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: in a consultation is just have a conversation, which is
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: to kind of learn more about the client or the
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: prospective client and learn more about the goals, learn a
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: little bit about the context of the situation with the
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: little time that we have. to understand more what they
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: want and, you know, for helping get some nominal goals that,
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: you know, which, which can be fine tuned later on
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: if the client wants to move forward, but learning more
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: about the problem, learning more about the goals and trying
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: to non-pathologize what's happening and saying, okay, what's happening with
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: you makes sense. What's happening with you is explainable. It's that,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: that doesn't make it any easier to deal with and
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: in the moment, but, Just to let a client know, hey,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: you're not alone. Yeah. You know, you're not the only
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: person dealing with this. And to be someone that's responsive
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: and to listen. And that can be hard in a
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: consultation because there's so much information you have to get through.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, I really want to learn
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit about what's making that client tick and
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: being able to listen and be able to convey, hey,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: you can talk to me. I'm listening and I will
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: be here. Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's so good. And so that's what happens, you guys.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: Let's have a conversation. Seth, what's going on? Who are you?
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: What do you want? A little bit of the context.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: And am I the right person to help you? And
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: also that nobody's going to judge you. Nobody's going to
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: vilify you. This is very common and normal and really understandable, honestly,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: when we look at it in the context of life.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: And that there is a path to changing it and
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: making it better for both of you. And this is
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: what you do. Right.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: And also to piggyback off that, to convey that I'm
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: not always the right person for a client. And I'm
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: happy to let that be known. Just say, hey, because
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: I want to help the client find the right fit
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: no matter who it is. If it's me, wonderful. Let's
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: move forward. Let's work. If it's not me, that's just
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: as good. Let me help you find someone else who
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: might be a better fit, maybe internally or externally, depending
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: on the situation. And, you know, so, I mean, that
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: that's part of the process where I, I, I'm trying
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: to determine for myself in my, can I help this
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: person meet their needs given, given what they're presenting to me.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I always worry about situations where people are forced to
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: sign up for some subscription, like not having met somebody,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And so it should be
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: like a, interview. Where's this going? Does this feel good
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: on both sides? If yes, then we go. But also, Seth,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: you're saying, let me help you anyway, find the next step,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: even if it isn't with me.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, I know we need to get going.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: But you guys, if you'd like to do that with Seth, growingself.com
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: forward slash Seth. And then otherwise, Seth, this has been
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: such a joy. And I hope you come back soon
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: for another conversation.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: I would love to.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yay. If you're a creative person with amazing ideas
• 1:02:25
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• 1:02:32
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• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Music Thank you.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I sat down to record a promo for our valued sponsor, Quince,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: and realized once again, I am wearing a Quince dress
• 1:03:36
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  Speaker 1: available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: com slash LHS. That was such a good conversation. I
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: don't know about you guys. I love Seth. Seth and
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: I have worked together for a long time. I think
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: the world of him. He's such a lovely person and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: also so insightful, truly. I hope you got a lot
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: out of hearing his perspective and also his recommendations. Before
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: we wrap up, I wanted to put one more resource
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: in front of you. And one of the things that
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: stood out for me in this conversation is that it
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: can be so hard to get visibility into how we
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: are perceived by others particularly when we ourselves might be
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: struggling right like as you learn today when any of
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: us get a little controlling it's usually motivated by our
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: own our own pain right our own anxiety our own
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: fears our own like feeling like we need to protect
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: ourselves so it's all these vulnerable places but in the
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: moment we When we're feeling that way and somebody's like,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: I think you're being a little controlling right now. Like,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: you know, that's not actually what we want to hear
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: in that moment. But then it turns into this gridlock where,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: you know, how can we fix it if we can't
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: really see it? It's hard to let in other people's feedback.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: And that's when you're really stuck. So the resource that
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: I have in mind for you, in addition to coming
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: and talking to Seth, by the way, he's phenomenal. but
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: is a free resource that I put together a while
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: ago on my website. It is a how healthy is
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: your relationship quiz. And in this quiz, it asks a
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: bunch of different questions that is not designed to place
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: blame or get anyone in trouble. To the contrary, what
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: it will do is will show you first and foremost,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: all of the strengths in your relationship, the parts that
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: are going well, right? Because every relationship is a mixed bag.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: All relationships have strengths. But also all relationships have growth opportunities.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: And as you answer the questions to this, you know,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: about your own experiences in the relationship, you know, you
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: can gain some insight into how you are feeling. But
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: here is a really cool part. If you and your
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: partner both take this together and answer honestly, right? Like
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: here is how I feel in this relationship subjectively. What
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: is true for me? Then, if it's safe to do so,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: and if you know it's going to turn into an
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: explosive thing that everybody's going to be upset, don't do it.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: Get help. Get a facilitator in the room who can
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: help you unpack this in a controlled and organized way.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: It'll be much more productive. We certainly don't want to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: make things worse. But if this is a mild to
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: moderate thing and it hasn't deteriorated to the point where
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: you can't talk to each other, you can each take
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: this assessment and then exchange results. and look at it
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: non-defensively and think, okay, this is how my partner responded
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: to these questions. Here is how they are experiencing me.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Whether or not I agree with that, because I have
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: all my own reasons for being who I am and
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: how I am and why I am, right? Like we
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: get very attached to like, well, this is why, right?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: We still like let it in. Here's how they experience
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: me how is how they feel and like you heard
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Seth and I talking about what would it be true
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: if my partner actually does feel this way a lot
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: of times in their interactions with me particularly if they're
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: flagging things like like control or like how how Seth
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: was talking sometimes our maladaptive communication patterns yelling at people
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: or going all ice queen on people like you know
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: yeah in the moment they're part of of coping but
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: they're also they're strategic when it comes to relational systems, right?
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: If we yell loud enough, somebody will finally listen or
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: do what we want them to do. Or if we,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: if we withdraw into silence, right, then they'll, then they'll
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: know that we're really upset and we'll be open to,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever. So, so I think we need to
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: own that, but also, you know, again, understand how our
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: partners are experiencing us that may be different than how
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: we experience ourselves. And the really important. It is challenging work, right?
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Whenever we sit with any of our stuff and be like, yeah,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I guess I do do that. And probably isn't awesome
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: to be another person in the room with me when
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: I'm showing up that way. And as uncomfortable as it is, though,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: No other change is really possible until we take ownership
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: for ourselves and take responsibility and, and commit to changing it.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: You know? So if you see something in there that
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: makes you feel bad and be like, I don't want
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: my partner to see me that way. Take it seriously, right?
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Because their feedback is such a gift. The only people
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: who are going to you how it really feels to
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: be with you are the ones that care enough about
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: you and this relationship to go through the trouble. And
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: there is such a powerful opportunity when somebody gives you
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: the gift of that authenticity and honesty to them, be
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: able to do something about it versus the alternatives, which
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: are a not knowing at all. how really distressed and
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: unhappy your partner is. I talk to people all the
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: time who get blindsided by breakups and no, a switch
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: does not just flip and your partner like changes their
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: mind one day. This was brewing for a while. You
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: just didn't know about it. So, so right. Like, so
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: that's one advantage of having these courageous conversations. But the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: other thing also is that, you know, You have the
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: opportunity to do something differently. And if we don't take
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: this seriously, if we don't take feedback from our partners,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: if we keep going and doing what we want to
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: do and be controlling and be weird and have our
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: own stuff and it is impacting other people, you know,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: after a while, we run out of chances to show
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: people that we can show up differently. And after a while,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: their trust in us will erode. And that is also
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: when relationships really start to die from the inside out.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: So I just want to say this, like, it's okay
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: to feel challenged by this stuff and to not love it.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: And it feels hard and to confront these things in yourself. Like, listen,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: if you need support, I get it. And it's available
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: for you. People like Seth, people like me, that's what
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: we do. So you don't have to do it alone.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: And you don't have to do it at all. If
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: somebody is giving you feedback that is really like needing
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: you to change in ways that feel absolutely inauthentic and
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: incongruent and like you would not be yourself if you
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: were complying with their, you know, ideal situation, that is
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: also absolutely valid. You don't have to do that in
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: order to maintain this specific relationship. And it's okay to
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: have that conversation too. However, if this is the relationship
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: that you want to be in, we all have a
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: responsibility to keep our side of the street clean. And
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: that requires being able to look at what that side
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: actually involves. So I hope that the conversation with Seth
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: and the resource that I shared with you, the relationship quiz, growingself.com
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: forward slash relationship hyphen quiz. You can also find it
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: just if you go to the free resources section at growingself.com
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: is right there in the main nav. Um, you know,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: take that quiz, start a conversation. Of course, if you
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: want to connect with Seth at growingself.com forward slash Seth,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: you can book your free consultation with him. Uh, and
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of other great people that I
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: work with too, if you want to browse around, but
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: you know, that's how this works. We take it seriously.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: All right, you guys, thank you so much for spending
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: this time with me today. I hope it was instructive
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: and helpful, and I will be back in touch with
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: you soon for another episode of love, happiness, and success.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: So take care.