Latest / Let's Talk with Carl Lee / NIL Chaos, Officiating Overload, and Collegiate Sports in Flux

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NIL Chaos, Officiating Overload, and Collegiate Sports in Flux · Let's Talk with Carl Lee

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  Speaker 4: dime to day line.
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  Speaker 5: Welcome to Let's talk with Carl Lee. Let's talk is
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  Speaker 5: probably presented by Attorney Frank Walker. Real talk, real experience,
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  Speaker 5: real results, Frank Walker Law dot com. Let that conversation
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  Speaker 5: begin on Let's talk.
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  Speaker 4: Alrighty, ladies and gentlemen, we're glad to have you here.
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  Speaker 4: And uh, I have my two hosts Lise Odi and
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  Speaker 4: Hollis Lewis. Lisa today, I kind of wanted you because
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: this is kind of your ballpark. Here is kind of
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  Speaker 4: the whole inn I l kind of thing.
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  Speaker 6: Call it my ballpark.
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  Speaker 4: Well, let's just say I threw it into your ball Okay, Okay,
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  Speaker 4: So give us a little bit of information about like,
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  Speaker 4: what are the numbers of some of the some of
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  Speaker 4: the schools, what are they putting out?
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  Speaker 3: Give us some of the information that you have.
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  Speaker 6: Okay. So what I what I've kind of been focusing
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  Speaker 6: on is the Collegiate National Championship, the twelve playoff, the
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  Speaker 6: new system that they've implemented this year for the for
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  Speaker 6: the playoffs, and our conversation, it's been kind of an
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  Speaker 6: ongoing thing, excuse me during our show. Is the NILE
• 2:02
  Speaker 6: monies and how it affects different schools and their wins
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  Speaker 6: and losses and just overall how it affects players in
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  Speaker 6: schools in general. And so what I did was a
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  Speaker 6: little comparison. I kind of looked up. I wanted to know.
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  Speaker 6: What I was curious about was how are the budgets
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  Speaker 6: of the NIL for specific schools playing out in the
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  Speaker 6: collegiate playoffs. Are are we seeing the schools that have
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  Speaker 6: more lucrative moneies available more resources for their nil? Are
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  Speaker 6: they the ones that are winning these games compared to
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  Speaker 6: the schools that have a lower budget. And so when
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  Speaker 6: I did a little research, it turns out that pretty
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  Speaker 6: much the numbers are on target. Your schools basically that
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  Speaker 6: have the most inile money are in the fourteen playoff
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  Speaker 6: and that would be That would be Ohio State, which
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  Speaker 6: has a stated twenty point three value of their NIL.
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  Speaker 6: You also have Texas which is the top twenty two
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  Speaker 6: point three million. We don't know Notre Dame status and
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  Speaker 6: we'll get to that in a minute. And Penn State,
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  Speaker 6: kind of the Cinderella so to speak of what's going on,
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  Speaker 6: only has a budget of thirteen point eight That's what
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  Speaker 6: they put out there as far as what you know,
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  Speaker 6: the amount of money that they have to spend. The
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  Speaker 6: reason I said Notre Dame, we really don't know is
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  Speaker 6: because this is something the guys and I talked about
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  Speaker 6: before the show began. Is that something that was unbeknownst
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  Speaker 6: to me, and maybe you guys out there didn't know
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  Speaker 6: this either, or maybe you did. But if you are
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  Speaker 6: a private school, participating in the in the collegiate football world,
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  Speaker 6: you are not required to disclose financial your finances publicly,
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  Speaker 6: and that would include your NAL money. So basically three
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  Speaker 6: of the teams that were in the twelfth playoff were
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  Speaker 6: private and that would be Notre Dame, SMU and Boise State.
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  Speaker 6: And so we have no idea what kind of NIL
• 3:57
  Speaker 6: money that they are playing with.
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  Speaker 4: Hollis, I see you shaking your heads, But here's here's
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  Speaker 4: what I'm trying to figure out, like when you when
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  Speaker 4: we start. First of all, let me let me make
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  Speaker 4: it clear. I am absolutely against the way n i
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  Speaker 4: L structure is.
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  Speaker 3: Now.
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  Speaker 4: I get I'm okay with players getting paid, but I'm
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  Speaker 4: not okay at all with the way n i L
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  Speaker 4: is working the way that it's the way that it's working.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know what I don't What I don't understand, Hollis,
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  Speaker 3: is how do you.
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  Speaker 4: How do you take let's say Ohio State and there
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  Speaker 4: are some they're ranking the top in n i L
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  Speaker 4: money when they were already getting the top athletes in
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  Speaker 4: the country, So now aren't they Is this just gonna
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  Speaker 4: go to whoever's got the most money whatever, the best
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  Speaker 4: teams they're gonna get the best players, and why wouldn't
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  Speaker 4: they be the best teams. I mean, that's kind of
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  Speaker 4: from Lisa's research that exactly what's happen. But my problem
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  Speaker 4: with this is, again I don't have an issue with
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  Speaker 4: players getting paid, but what I have an issue with
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  Speaker 4: is that we're still letting the n C Double A
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  Speaker 4: off the hook.
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  Speaker 3: Because again, if you go.
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  Speaker 4: Before you finish that, you can tell the tone switched
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  Speaker 4: that his voice right now, so we know this is
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  Speaker 4: something that's really important, that he's got.
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  Speaker 2: It because we were letting them off the hook because
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  Speaker 2: of the numbers that Lisa quoted. Again, those numbers are
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  Speaker 2: coming from third parties, coming from boosters, coming from collectives.
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  Speaker 2: They're coming from generally maybe with the school outside the school.
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  Speaker 2: They're not coming from the NC Double A. And again,
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  Speaker 2: if you go back and read the ed Ed o'banni,
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  Speaker 2: the former ucl U c l A basketball player's original lawsuit,
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  Speaker 2: it was about getting that name and image and likeness
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  Speaker 2: that was coming from the video games, that was coming
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  Speaker 2: from the Jersey sales, ticket sales, TV contracts and everything.
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  Speaker 2: And have a split revenue model with the NC Double A,
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  Speaker 2: the conferences and the schools and now we're at a
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  Speaker 2: point where we're having all this money thrown now in
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  Speaker 2: the n C double A still does not have to
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  Speaker 2: chip in, which creates a market in which is a
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  Speaker 2: free for all and there's no caps. And again to
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  Speaker 2: the victor is going to be the spoils because I've
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  Speaker 2: got the most money, or the other way from the
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  Speaker 2: spoils is going to create the right right. So this,
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  Speaker 2: this this rant is is truly about NC double A
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  Speaker 2: because they're not they don't want to give up any
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  Speaker 2: of the money that they're making, so so they don't
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  Speaker 2: want to share.
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  Speaker 4: They don't want to share. They don't want to share
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  Speaker 4: that money. And I want to make sure everybody is
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  Speaker 4: understanding exactly what Hollis is saying, because this money, this
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  Speaker 4: ni O money, is not league money, it's.
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  Speaker 3: Not television money, it's not seeding, it's not any of
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  Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. All of that is somewhere else.
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  Speaker 4: The players are not getting yet this is required from
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  Speaker 4: boosters and businesses. And you know, but I'll say this,
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  Speaker 4: and I don't remember what this guy's name, but he's
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  Speaker 4: the guy who's saying that.
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  Speaker 3: Build these billionaire people.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's the owner of the Bucks Bucks Okay,
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  Speaker 2: the Bucks basketball, NBIA basketball this, Yeah, and I'm not
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  Speaker 2: okay with what did he say.
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  Speaker 4: But he's talking about like owning these teams, buying these privatizing, privatizing.
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  Speaker 3: These football teams.
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  Speaker 4: Like that's that's that's just an amateur pro league what
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  Speaker 4: it is that is now. But but we're doing everything
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  Speaker 4: to push it away from being collegiate sports.
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  Speaker 3: We're breaking all the rules that were once.
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  Speaker 4: Solid, like making money, getting money in college ball that
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  Speaker 4: was the worst thing ever.
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  Speaker 6: Well some schools even got the death penalty. You're giving
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  Speaker 6: a kid or some money on the side or.
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  Speaker 4: What and some of those were kids who actually financially
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  Speaker 4: needed money.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think again, I think again.
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  Speaker 2: It's a situation in which the NC DOUBLEA created this
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  Speaker 2: monster because all they had Again ten fifteen years ago,
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  Speaker 2: kids were not asking for millions and millions of dollars.
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  Speaker 2: Kids were literally asking for five thousand, two thousand and
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  Speaker 2: three thousand dollars a month. They were asking for money
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  Speaker 2: to number one live and asking for splits on revenues
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  Speaker 2: that they've seen coming in. They weren't asking for all
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  Speaker 2: this money. They just wanted their piece of the pie.
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  Speaker 2: And because of the NC double as the conferences, the
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  Speaker 2: schools their greed, it created a situation and now we
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  Speaker 2: have a free flowing market. We have a capitalistic collegiate
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  Speaker 2: sort of deal where it's going to be hard to
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  Speaker 2: turn back the hands of time and go back to
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  Speaker 2: something that's reasonable. Other than probably I think the only
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  Speaker 2: thing that's going to probably work is having a cap.
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  Speaker 2: But then once you have a cap, you're gonna have unions,
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  Speaker 2: and you're going to create a situation in which the
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  Speaker 2: billionaire from the Bucks, the owner, I think he may
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  Speaker 2: have some truth there. Where these corporations going to come
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  Speaker 2: in and say, hey, we're going to just sponsor Notre Dame. Now,
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  Speaker 2: we're gonna give you X amount of dollars for your
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  Speaker 2: basketball football team, and this.
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  Speaker 3: Is what it is. You're gonna wear our logo in
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  Speaker 3: different things of that nature.
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  Speaker 6: And do you think, though, Hollis, do you think it's
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  Speaker 6: going to be those Notre Dames in Georgia that will
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  Speaker 6: that will take advantage of that, or is it going
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  Speaker 6: to be the schools that right now are struggling financially
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  Speaker 6: just to keep their team afloat.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I would ask it in reverse, if your corporation
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  Speaker 2: would you want to sponsor, you know, Minnesota Tech, or
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  Speaker 2: would you want to go to to Georgia.
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  Speaker 6: Well that's a good point, but would Georgia be Here's
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  Speaker 6: the other side of it. Would Georgia be interested in
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  Speaker 6: me being bought out? Would their boosters? Would their alumni
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  Speaker 6: be okay with that because they have tradition, they have
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  Speaker 6: you know, they have their own college, you know. Following
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  Speaker 6: do you really think those those people that are giving
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  Speaker 6: to the nil would they he kind of swept aside
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  Speaker 6: whenever these people.
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  Speaker 3: Come buy things.
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  Speaker 2: I think what would happened is Georgia, Tennessee, they may
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  Speaker 2: not be interested in but maybe a Vanderbilt would. Maybe
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  Speaker 2: maybe at Eastern Carolina would. Maybe somebody is gonna open
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  Speaker 2: the door for it, and then they're gonna say, hey,
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  Speaker 2: I ain't you ain't I'm not leaving all that money
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  Speaker 2: on the table.
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  Speaker 3: I'm coming back.
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  Speaker 2: Because again, we have to remember the economics of college too, right,
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  Speaker 2: because when we talk about sports, it's just not about
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  Speaker 2: the sports. It's about the economics of university college. That's
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  Speaker 2: dramatically changed.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, but let me ask this question, and it's going corporatiz.
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  Speaker 4: So if I if I sell my team to you
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  Speaker 4: as the billionaire. You're gonna build us a new stadium.
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  Speaker 4: You're gonna you know, you're gonna basically you're gonna fund football.
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  Speaker 3: Well, and probably all sports, maybe a lot of different.
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  Speaker 4: Maybe, but let's just just just for just for this conversation.
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  Speaker 4: You're gonna you're gonna own football. You're not owning football
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  Speaker 4: because you want to create, not necessarily wins. You're you're
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: buying football to get revenue coming back to you. My
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  Speaker 4: question is the argument that I have in that that
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  Speaker 4: I can't I can't.
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  Speaker 3: Make sense of Football is my money making tool in
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  Speaker 3: it is the cash cow.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna sell it for a big whopping number
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  Speaker 4: for for So I'm gonna have this big whopping number
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  Speaker 4: right now.
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  Speaker 3: Is that for? Is that gonna be forever? Like I mean,
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  Speaker 3: because I'm sure they'll have like different arrangements.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, just like like you have neighbor rights to
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  Speaker 2: the statement. And I would argue the point that if
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  Speaker 2: a corporation's coming to buy like Georgia football, w football,
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  Speaker 2: they're coming for they want some wins, because that's how
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  Speaker 2: you're gonna make That's how you're gonna get to bid
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  Speaker 2: the fan base. Because college I mean college sports is
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  Speaker 2: different than professional sports because fan bases are generally a
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: little bit more lower. I see, because but you're gonna
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: have to win in order to be sustainable. The Cowboys
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and the Lakers, probably the Yankees the three most valuable
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: franchises in sports. They have histories of winning, and if
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: they don't have those histories of winning, then they're not value.
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  Speaker 2: They don't have the valuation today. So you gotta win.
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  Speaker 2: What scares me in this.
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: Is what do you do? Okay, so we don't win?
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: Who so is that we're firing the coach? What do
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: we what are we like? What are we doing?
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: Like?
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: How are we processing what we need? Because it isn't
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: always the coach. Sometimes you just don't have the players.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I don't canny though, I don't think that changes them
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: what it is now. It's like, if you're not winning,
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  Speaker 2: the coach is gone. I mean it may be quicker.
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  Speaker 6: I see what Carl's saying. Is it going to be somebody?
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  Speaker 6: Is the corporation going to be in charge of hiring
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: the coach rather than the admin of the.
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  Speaker 4: School and fire that's I think that's that's think by
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: the team you buy it all? Well, I would think
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  Speaker 4: So if if if I've got a pillion dollars and
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: I dropped that billion dollars for that team, I want
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  Speaker 4: to make every decision or I'm going to place you
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: in Hollis and everything.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Whoever I think who will work with.
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  Speaker 6: Me like a general manager in the NFL. Pretty much
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: they would have something And.
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  Speaker 4: I just don't say, but see, I see, I don't
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  Speaker 4: think that you can always control winning in college without money,
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, without like like you can't always.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, we know Ohio State, Georgia, Alabama, we we
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: those teams have had histories of building. You know, they're
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: they're they're their their brand, their brand, and once they've
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: got that brand, now you want to go to that brand.
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: But for anybody else, like for everybody else, like, how
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: do you just how does Marshall get an Alabama type player?
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  Speaker 6: They can't, You're not you know it's going to be
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: I was gonna say.
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  Speaker 4: What about what about that corporation, because let's say Alabama's
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: going to be ten dollars ten dollars. But but there's
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: a guy, there's a corporation who owns Marshall, who's saying.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Hey, we'll give you fifty dollars.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's the only way. And again,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: as of now, with nil and Leasta pointed out perfectly,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: you're not getting those players now unless you can actually
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: afford to get those players. So sort of the the
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say, and again and we can say, it's
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: kind of always been like this because if you look
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: at like different levels of college football that you know,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: one level would have a certain of scholarships, that's true,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: different scholarships, and you would have more money if you
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: had boosters, they would contribute to the program differently. So
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: it's kind of always been like is that now it's
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: just on frustreet where we're not talking about scholarships, we're
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: not talking about gear, we're talking about actually putting money
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: in the hands of players. So it becomes different until
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Lisa's point what we talked about earlier, it gets more aggrecious.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: And and that's the part that I don't like is
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: that the siphoning of players, right, because I think once
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: corporations will get involved, and I think if if and
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: we're talking hypothetically, if they were ever to get involved,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I think that's the thing that they were cut off
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: because they're not going to have you sign this great player,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: he has two or three great years, then he goes
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: to the next school. That's not gonna happen if corporations
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: get involved. So what you what your rules will be
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: more hard lines, I quarantee.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: So it's signing.
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: So what you're doing is you're signing a lack of
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: a better term, a pro contract, right Like, so if
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: you're gonna you're gonna, I'm gonna sign I'm gonna play
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: at Marshall and I'm gonna play for X amount of
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: years for X amount of dollars.
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: So do you think that with this possible scenario on
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: the horizon, do you think that that will just negate scholarships?
• 15:37
  Speaker 6: Like why should we even have scholarships for education when
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: we're just gonna pay the players anyway.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: That's gonna be done.
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: Think that that's done.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: I think not. I think the the you have to
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: go to class that I think that's.
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: Gonna be that's not even gonna be part of it. Well,
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: I think I asked you guys this question the corps.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: I think I asked you guys.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: This question maybe a while back because we were maybe
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: talking about something similar to this, and I ask you
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: when is the last time.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: You've ever heard of an athlete flunking.
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: Out of stout?
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: Now? I mean, I can't even and I'm not I'm
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: not saying I'm not saying that you know that there's
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: something fishy about that. I'm not saying that athletes are dumb.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm I'm one of those that was specifically
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: just interested in football. So, but that the possibility of
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: a of an athlete flunking out, what's what's a reality
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: back then?
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: How does I'm a college I'm a college professor, And
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: I'm saying that the resources of tools you have now
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: if you flunking out is because you want to, And
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: it ain't got nothing to do with how bright you are, how.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Smart you are. Some of this too, because you can
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: find too.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: It's too much resources. Okay, it's grammar, it's ais chat, GPT.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: If you're flunking out now, you're trying hard to flunk out,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: so you know you shouldn't be flucking out.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: I'll say that. So that's that's that's virtually impossible to do.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: You just shouldn't be. If you're flunking out, you try
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: really hard to flunk out. Plus you know, once you
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: go to the l s u's, the Ohio State's w
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: they got tutors, they got this, they got that, there's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: just too many resources.
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: Well let me let me bring this up because this
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: is kind of on my mind. It just kind of
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: popped into my head. But so we're looking at right now.
• 17:24
  Speaker 6: The whole scene is that the private schools do not
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: have to disclose, you know, their their finances. What happens
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: when the corporations come in. Are they going to be
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: required to put out how much money they're spending for
• 17:38
  Speaker 6: a school or a program or is that going to
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: be considered profit?
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: I would I would I would private. I would think
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: that they'd have to. They'd have to they'd have to
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: own that whatever dollars that you put in.
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: But how different from a private school already? If you
• 17:52
  Speaker 6: come in as a private company and own a school,
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: why would you be required to show your finances when
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: a private school isn't required to.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Because now you have stakeholders. Those corporations coming in, they
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: have shareholders and stakeholders, so that they it's going to
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: be open unless you're a private corporation. Now you're mixing
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: public and private. So I'm saying, And I think what
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: happens is once you have those private corporations coming in,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: I really don't think that might be a bad thing
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: considering where we'll go. I really don't, because they're gonna
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: the process is gonna be streamlined and it ain't gonna
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: be none of this hide the ball type of stuff.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: See, I think I think some of these people they
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: want to know they own Alabama for sure, you know
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: they want you.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Know they don't.
• 18:35
  Speaker 6: But it's a question of whether Alabama wants to be
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: for sale. That's what I'm saying. When you've got the
• 18:40
  Speaker 6: massive amounts of alumni and boosters that you're talking about
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: at these Alabamas and Notre Dames, you know, that's a
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: whole different ballgame. They really don't have to sell out.
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: They don't. They're okay right now. Now. If it comes
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: a time when these other schools are catching up with them,
• 18:56
  Speaker 6: then they might have to consider it.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So but I guess to that point, but at what
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: point do you get a giving fatigue? So if I'm
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: in a booster of the Alabama or Ohio, at what
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: point do I say, dang, am I gonna keep giving me?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: But you get nothing back? Like you're not getting a
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: return on that other than just saying, hey, I contribute
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and we won. So at what point do you like
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: you just not want to give? Keep giving right now?
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: You know?
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I mean I think I think that's where it is
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: right now. I think those people do not want Well,
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: let me, I don't want to. I don't want to
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: throw a group of people in into one bunch. But
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: I think there are folks out there, billionaire folks out there,
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: who who want to.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: They don't mind putting the money up because they have
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: a way to get it back. They want to have
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: an access to get it back.
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: It's not so much making a profit. It's about your ego.
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: It's about saying, hey.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Be true too. I mean, I mean, I.
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: He doesn't he doesn't need he doesn't need any more money.
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: I mean, you know, you're you're talking about people that
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: already have enough money that it's just this is fun money.
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: This is just something to do and tell your buddies
• 20:11
  Speaker 6: a happy hour. Hey guess what I just thought.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: I know I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of slide over
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: here with Hallis. I think I think it is about ego.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: I think it is a lot about ego. But but
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: but you can't go to Alabama.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: You can't. I dare you to buy Alabama and not win.
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: No, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying just
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: in general, whenever they go to purchase a team, I
• 20:37
  Speaker 6: don't think the front running thing in their brain is
• 20:40
  Speaker 6: I need to make a profit. I think it's more
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: for fun up front. Yeah, if they start losing money,
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: but but I think up front, I don't know.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: I can guess on an individual basis, but.
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: When you're talking about money, you have.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: But when we're talking about a corporation, if I'm such
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: and such LLC, if I'm such and such ink and
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I am purchasing Georgia out Labama, whoever, then it's my
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: it's part of my due diligence to make sure I
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: get a return on that problem.
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: So the return, what wouldn't it be? Return would be
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: like being the TV, you know, the TV profits even
• 21:15
  Speaker 6: if they're not winning.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they can get a piece of that. Yeah yeah, Because.
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: There were years Notre Dame was not that what I mean,
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: and they still had that that you know, that image.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: That you're going to get concession ticket steals all that
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I need apparel I need all the school.
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: You think they just completely give control over, right?
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Is that?
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: What is that what we're looking to me?
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: If you're buy it, it's yours now. Now what that
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: negotiation means is what am I okay? And me coming
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: in as the buyer and Hollis is the president of
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: the school. I'm saying, look, I'm interested in buying your
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: your football team one hundred billion dollars and you say, okay,
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: I'm good. Now what's the detail? I want to have
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: control of staffing dad now, hol But Hollis's answers are
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: going to be what's gonna matter to me? Because I
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: don't think that's an easy conversation. I don't see you
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: as the president, thinking that you're going to give up
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: all of this control. You still have to be the
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: president of the university and you still got to be
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: able to say this is no, this is okay, no,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: don't ever do that again.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: You gotta have that control. And I'm not sure billionaires
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: are okay with that.
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: And what would the n C double A do with that?
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, what could they do?
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: Just like I don't know, would they just disappear because
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: there wouldn't be really like what would they.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: What if you get in the conference and every conference
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: has been bought up by by by a booster, Why
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: do I need.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: What?
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: What I need you for?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I think that day's in the NC double A. I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: think the days of conferences coming to an end shortly.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I don't. I'm curious.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I do not.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: I do not believe that once you have this money
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: vested from third parties coming in, once you allow the
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: sort of the wolves to come into the hens, then
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: like they're not going to play by these these antiquated
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: rules that you have set forth. They don't care about
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: this player maybe having a two point zero or this
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: or that or these little just nick ticky tacky rules.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I think once you allow that level of money to
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: come in, those these entities are going to be gone
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: that now. Again, they still may be able to work
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: at the lower levels, maybe the D two's, the D threes,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: but we're even seeing Juco's now right. That whole landscape
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: is changing, and I think once the corporation comes, they're coming.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: For it all.
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: Do you think at one point, at some point, I
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: should say, at some point this will affect NFL draft
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: because these kids are making NFL type money.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Some of these already has I would say this, I
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: don't know if I need a seventh round pick, a
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: sixth pick, seventh round, and I've been making hundreds and
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: It's a kid from Southern I want to say, old Miss.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: He was projected to be a second third round pick.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: He had enough in i O money stacked up where
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: he's going to a veterinarian school.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: So I think it's I've seen another kid. He's playing
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: like the G League.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: He's a basketball player where he had enough in i
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: O money to invest in a hotel. He ain't in
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a rush to get to the NBA far as just
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: money's concerned. That's that's that's crazy. That's let me just
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: let me just say this, because I know that there's
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: been a lot of stuff going on here kind of
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: side of our show, the situation in New Orleans. We
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: just want to give a little bit of a shout
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: out prayer to all of those folks I know I've
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: been to I've been to New Orleans.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: I've been on Bourbon Street. I can't even imagine, you
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: know what that could be like with a car going
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: down Bourbon Street, because anybody who's ever been to the
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Mardi Gras, anybody's been anything down there on Bourbon Street.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: It's pot man, and it's it's virtually impossible. So we
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: need to we need to give them a shout out.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: All right, So we're gonna take a quick break and
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: we'll be right back.
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: Let's Talk with Carl Lee is presented by Attorney Frank Walker.
• 25:56
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  Speaker 5: Find previous episodes of Let's Talk at wcchsnetwork dot com
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  Speaker 5: slash Let's Talk. This is Let's Talk with Carl Lee.
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: Now back to the conversation.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: All right, ladies and gentlemen, I'm here, let's talk, and
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: I have my co host Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: We're gonna we're gonna draftically shift gears. I don't know
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: if we I don't know if we're ever gonna come
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: to come to an end on that one. But again,
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: I don't know if we ever actually completely agree that
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: all to any subject that we have. Hollis, you you,
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: we me and you had talked a little bit about
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, there's this this influx of former
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: players becoming coaches.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: And and you were sort of like the pioneer of this,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: right when you're talking about former players going to smaller schools,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: specifically HBC using this case. So you have Desson Jackson,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: He's going to Delaware State, Mike Vick's going to North Fork.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: We have Eddie George at t s U. We have
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Dionne went to Jackson State. Tyrone Wheatley back in the day.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I think he that Morgan, I think he still may
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: be there. So being a player who took that path,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: what was kind of the thinking and what advice would
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: you have for those players who taking on this endeavor. Well,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if I get to be
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: considered their spearheading this thing.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: I did it a long time ago. I did it
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: a long time ago.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: And I want to say specifically in communities that all
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: you guys, what you had in common was you did
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: it in communities that you were connected to. Right So
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: even Delaware State with Deshaun Jackson played in Philadelphia, they're
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: crossing proximity obviously, North Florik Michael Vick, Eddie, George, Tennessee.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So it was communities in what you were connected to.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: Think, I think one of the one of the interesting
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: things and what I truly loved about the idea of
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: going to West Virginia State, and I'm going to assume
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: that this is part of their thinking was that it
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: wasn't HBCU, and during that time to even remotely have
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: a chance at a head coaching job, that's probably the
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: only place that that was going to happen and not
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: saying that you had to go through that. There's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: negative piece of going through the system. But I think
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: HBU HBCUs they they embrace you know, it is it
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: is color based, and it is and they based that
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: on former athletes, and all of a sudden, when you
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: start getting professional athletes who are interested in in coaching.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: Coach tough started at HBCU. Now see yeah, yes, and so.
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: You just that that.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: I think that's just the For me, I thought it
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: was the greatest thing ever, you know, and and and
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: forget the reality of what state was, what its records were,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: and all that kind of stuff, to coach and actually
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: have a chance to have hands on with young black athletes,
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: and not that we had all we weren't all black,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: but having the opportunity to recruit, see where they're coming from,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: know what they're dealing with.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: To me, that was I don't know if there's anything
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: better than that.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: And you you'll stay there for as long as you
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: possibly can until maybe another opportunity where you were almost
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: forced to go. I think a lot of these former
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: professional athletes, this is a great start. They may spend two, three,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: four years there and and someone whether it's another college
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: or whether it's a professional team, they're gonna call them
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: up based on their success some of the and and
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: you know as well as I know every HBCU doesn't.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: They don't pay there's not.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: A lot of money into the program prestige. Yeah, and
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: so that was my other question.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: So coming from the NFL, where you have all the resources,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: you have all the things, and then going to whether
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: it's you are just a smaller school, where you're going
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: to a small school where you don't have the money,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: you don't have the resource. That had to kind of
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: be a mind that had to be difficult to navigate.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: There was some really really really really difficult conversations, some
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: huge arguments. Some like I can be I'm pretty I'm
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: pretty relaxed and calm and in most cases, but I
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: will say at West Virginia State, I probably fought harder
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: for just some things that I thought would be normal
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: than I had that I probably fought for in my
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: entire life, and all of it for the sake and
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: the benefit of not winning, but making.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: A former athlete love.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: West Virginia State College, West Virginia State University. You know
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying, Like I wanted players to when you leave, win,
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: lose or draw. I wanted you to feel like this
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: is where you were and you're proud of it, not
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: just because it was just black, but because you were
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: an athlete and you played on a team.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: I don't care, because I don't.
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: I didn't win at Marshall, so I felt like winning
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: wasn't the most important thing as long as you got
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: the life lessons that you were forced into dealing with
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: the life lessons that the game is supposed to teach.
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: And to me, as you know, I was all over
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: those lessons and an opportunity to get a college degree,
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: absolutely because then IL really didn't play a factor when
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: you were there.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: Not at all, so scholarship.
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: Scholarship wasn't even a rule.
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: So my question is to this is why, I know
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: you mentioned you had these hard conversations and arguments. Why
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: do you feel like you had to fight so hard
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: and have to go through those things in order to
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: get what you needed for your players?
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: This is gonna.
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna say answer.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no no no no.
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: I want yeah.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: I want to answer.
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: You don't have to answer.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: I want to answer.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: See, I don't I think you if you're not if
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: you're not in athletics, if you're not athletically.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Structured, and and and.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: You you you understand that, you understand what a coach
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: is doing, what a player is doing, how those relationships
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: are built, how that future of that athlete is is,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: how you teach him how to do these things, how
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: you know you you're making him be on time for practice,
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: You're making him be on time for this, not just
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: not just for practice, but for future.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: And I and I felt like.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: There was a lot of people who had a lot
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: of hands in into the sports programs who didn't understand that.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: And I'm trying to convince them, like, look, these young
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: men that are playing football, they need they need something.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: They need something to to to motivate them, something to
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: make them understand to just to stay here. And the
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: only way you're gonna stay here is money. And I
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: don't mean nil money, I mean scholarship money. I mean
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: we had when I first got there, I don't even
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: think we we had no full scholarships none. And so
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: for me, I'm I'm hitting everybody possible And and shout
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: out to Sterling Sharp, who who would come into West
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: Virginia State springball, bought our bought our uniforms home and away.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: You know, that's that speaks volumes he had that he
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: had to ss on him too. And and also and
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: that's something that is like super super special.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: And for those guys to see him showing up, that's
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: that's everything because at that point, like he was, he
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: was a guy, like he was the guy and.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Coming in and he's yelling and he's screaming everything.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: You know, So let me ask this, so like like
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: coming from fresh beer, because I think you were a player,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: you did a year TV, then you go right in
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: and coaching. Yes, And I think football is unique in
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: that you need some experience coaching before you take on
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: the head coaching job. Yes, I'm just going to stand
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: by that. I think it's very difficult to transit, particularly
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: at a collegiate program because even when we think of Dion, right,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Dion had been coaching the Sons from Little League basically
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: on through, so he had years and years of experience
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: prior to him becoming a collegiate head coach. So do
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: you kind of in retrospect, do you think you or
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: do you wish or do you think that could have
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: helped just being an assistant for a little while, and
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: then jumping in.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: To be honest, I wish that coach Monroe, Earl Monroe,
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: who who was a guy that I hired, who was
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: on the staff prior to and he had been coaching
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: there forever. I really wish I would have been his assistant,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: started out at that and then eventually let my career
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: go from there. I wish I didn't necessarily take the
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: head job. I could have taken the dB job. I
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: could have taken an assistant, you know, coach on the
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: you know, coachman Rolle probably would have could have been
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: the head coach and decordinator.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: I could have been just a dB coach. I would
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: have been happy with that, you know.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: But that wasn't That wasn't that wasn't the call that
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: I got no doubt, you know, and so and so
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: all I was thinking about it was like, oh, you know,
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: is this actually really possible? And what I knew about
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: coaching was how I had been coached, you know, And
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: so I'm thinking, Okay, well how will I coach? I
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: will coach the way that I was coached. And while
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: I think that does work, and I think, you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: and Holliskin attest to this. He may not have needed it,
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: but I think he can appreciate it now, you know.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: Now that's how I'm hoping that that is. But I
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: don't know that.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Because you know, because I'm I'm really shocked too.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: And I know that there are some guys who I
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: know for a fact that there's a few guys who
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: to this day do not particularly care for me.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Because I was a coach.
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: But I know when I come down to State's homecoming
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: and I see a lot of guys, there's a lot
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of joy, there's a lot of genuine appreciation,
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: and guys think they'll thank me for, you know, for
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: being who I was and they and I was the
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: guy who they needed most.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: And there's a few guys and you know who they are.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: I won't throw their names out here.
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: That who.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Who the school didn't even have trust in and wanted
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: them to be gone. And my fight was, no, no,
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: we can't know, No they no, we need we need
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: to keep them here. And they all graduated and they're
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: all successful, and to me, that's all that, that's really
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: all that mattered to me. I wasn't really worried about
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: because I'll take the losses, you know, and say that
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: the players were great and it's just bad coaching. I
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: can handle that, that's all. But what I know now
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: is when I look at these guys, A guy who
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: they really really really wanted to throw out. They wanted
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: to get him out, and he was practically gone. I
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: went to bat for him, and nobody said anything. When
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: he graduated, Ain't nobody talking about him, how successful well
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: he is now as a teacher, all this kind of stuff. Nobody,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: nobody wants to say, Well, you know what, Carol, you
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: were right, he's on the He's on the street if if,
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: if that fight doesn't happen.
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: He's on the street without a chance, without a chance.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: So to me, I'm not saying all HBC user in
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: that situation, but that's the situation that I took on
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: at West Virginia State, and I feel like I won that.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: So so you so like far and I'm getting out
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: of that like far as your advice to these coaches
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: taking on these jobs at these smaller schools is the
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: advice is that you're like what you think of a win.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: It's got to be different. It's not just about what
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: happens on the field.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: It's kind of the players that you're you're midtor in,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you're developing and different things of that nature.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, somewhat, but somebody's gonna come knock it.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Coach Bob Prewittt called me several times to come to
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: Marshall while he was at Marshall.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: I couldn't go. I love Coach Prewittt, I love him.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: I couldn't leave my guys, m.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: More money, future at Marshall, all of those kind of things,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: learning the things that I could have learned from Coach Brewitt.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's crazy. I wouldn't leave.
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: I had two opportunities, two different opportunities to leave. I
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: refused to go because it meant more.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: For me to touch you then for me to say,
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: oh gosh, my my my career. But I think that's
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: a different mentality.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know that's priority you think, but priorities and
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: is like, did you want to like climb the coaching ladder?
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: Goal?
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: That wasn't when you took that job at State. Your
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: goal wasn't to get from here to there.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: From pot I had not really thought about coaching changed lives. Yeah, yeah,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: but once once the opportunity came to me. I can
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: remember when the young lady was a young lady who
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: called me and said, hey, she was on the committee.
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: She was saying, hey, you know, we're looking for a
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: head coach. Would you be interested in being the head coach?
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: I was like really, you know, And the very first
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: thing that I thought about was like, all right, this
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: is a chance to actually touch young men.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: How do I pass that up?
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: You know, if you know it's football, I know how
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: I was in football. I'm sure there's gonna be a
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: whole bunch of guys like me. And again, it never,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: it never bothered me what the record was.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: It never. I was never in I never sat around
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: and worried about, like in the interviews, how are you
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: going to turn the program around?
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: If I graduate kids young men, I've turned the program around,
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: I won't get and I and this is this is
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: this was what I would always say. I will not judge.
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: I will not be judged on my wins and losses.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: It'll be about the lives that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: I that I create, or I think and don't you think, Hollas,
• 42:08
  Speaker 6: at that level you can do that. I mean, there's
• 42:14
  Speaker 6: not as much money involved, there's not as much alumni involved,
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: There's not as much expectation involved, I would think. So
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: when you're comparing you know, a smaller school like State
• 42:24
  Speaker 6: or or even you know, the smaller schools in West
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: Virginia to the wu's and Marshall's, right, you have that
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: luxury because the fan base is probably not as large,
• 42:38
  Speaker 6: probably right. And it's not about the money. There's not
• 42:43
  Speaker 6: a whole lot of money that you've got anyway to
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: work with, right, So not that the expectations are, you know,
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: to have a losing season, but the expectations are not
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: quite as high as they would be at a larger
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: school with more money.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: I don't think I can't get ten years. I won't.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't have gotten I coached for ten years.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: I don't think I would have gotten a ten years
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: if I hadn't raised the money that I was raising.
• 43:08
  Speaker 6: So you were you were having to do it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: not just coach.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: And I think at a smaller school, particularly at a
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: school like State, I think winning.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Does not win. It helps.
• 43:18
  Speaker 6: Winning helps when it helps.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Everything, and I think you know, it's definitely a part
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: of it. But I think also to your point, Lisa,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: when you are at a smaller school, and you're graduating
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: guys and guys are coming back and guys going into
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: the Hall of Fame, and you're seeing this just this
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: legacy of players that you know, succeeding. And I think
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: in retrospect you have a lot of maybe some of
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: the detractors that's going to look back and say, well,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: look at all these guys who are doing who are
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: coaches now, who are doing all these things? So I
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: think that's it's sort of but I will say winning
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: always always matters. When it always matters, you know what
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: I'm saying.
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: And you know, we had we had some guys who
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: were Player of the years, defensive player of the year,
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: defensive backs who were All conference and you know, and
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: all of that, and and I think now and unfortunately
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: now even at those even at the lower levels, now
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: winning is omnipresent.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Like you gotta win now. Yes, yes, it's not like
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: it was back in the day. No, you gotta like
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: you have to win now, even at D three whatever.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: And this this goes back to you All's point about
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: you know, when I asked the question about when's the
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: last time somebody flunked out?
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: Because of all the things.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: That you have that you can get your school work done,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: you don't have to worry about your g p A
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: and all that kind of stuff.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Then you then in turn better show up and better
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: show up in football, better show up, right, And let
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: me ask this, so just to switch gears right when
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I can, and I and I and I'm basing this
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: off of what happened in the Texas and Arizona game, right,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: So it was late in the game and you had
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: what many beliefs should have been a targeting call.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And when I look at sports, whether you're whether it's basketball, baseball, football,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: will take those three professional sports. To me, it's getting
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: increasingly hard to watch. And I think it's I don't
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: know what has to be done, but it just seems
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: like the officiating because now back in the day, you
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: didn't have, like we didn't know officiating names. There's like
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: a fourth commentator who's the official who's going to have
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: to explain all these complicated rules, and I think just
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: it's going to just lead to people being turned off
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: by the game because it's just I believe sports are
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: over officiated, and it and it's over officiated, then we
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: have egregious calls that are not called that are could
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: be game changing, and it's just changing the complexity of
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: the sports. Even like I was watching the game and
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: it was a meaningless bowl game. You had a guys
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: who never got in the game because all the other
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: players set out the ball game. They score sight and touchdown,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: you can't even celebrate because we got to wait to
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: confirm if it's a touchdown. So it's like, what is
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: the balance between like the over officiating and wanting to
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: get into the calls right?
• 46:16
  Speaker 6: And I remember specifically this this play, hollis that you're you're,
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: you know, talking about did they throw a flag or
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: was it initiated by the booth to review the targeting car?
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: I'm not because I'm.
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: Thinking like that the officials didn't even throw a flag.
• 46:32
  Speaker 6: It was the booth that initiated the review, which stopped
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: the whole momentum of the game. And I'm like, okay,
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: here here's another line you don't cross. If the officials
• 46:42
  Speaker 6: are not calling something, then the booth has no business
• 46:45
  Speaker 6: coming down and saying this is this is what we
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: see we need because that's just another set of officials
• 46:50
  Speaker 6: up in the air that to four levels officiating yes,
• 46:54
  Speaker 6: we don't need that.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: It's like it's just too much.
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: And it did look like a targeting call. I don't
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: know what you thought. And they didn't call it, but
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: it did like that.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a call because it's a bang bang play.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: But but I mean, it was a target targeting call.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: But it's one of those things.
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: Yes it was. But if they didn't call it on
• 47:12
  Speaker 6: the field, they have no business calling it from the bog.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: But I just think the game, and I'm saying sports
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: in general are is taking the passion out of the game.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, you look at the basketball players Membory guys
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: used to dunk and then look at you that you
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: can't even do that baseball players, I mean the umpire
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: excuse me, the manager can't say anything.
• 47:31
  Speaker 6: They can dance though, is like the vikings do scre.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Just a passion of the game and the excitement is
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: just it's just done with overficiating.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: It's a lot, all right, you two have said a lot. Okay,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: now I'm okay.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: As from from being a player and then coaching, my
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: acceptance of calls right or wrong just is what it is.
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: You know how I was don't say anything to the officials.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Nothing. We just will play.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I just.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: I got there were interference calls that I had in
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: the league in high school that I'd make the case
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: that there's no way, you know, no way, but they
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: are what they are. There's no reason for me to
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: jump up and shout and do all that kind of stuff.
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: Do officials make bad calls? It's bad, but whatever, however,
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: you want to sign it over officiate?
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Over officiating?
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: What's the rules? I mean, there's too many, too many.
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: Rules, okay, So if I was okay, so to your point,
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I would make the case the opportunity to make a
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: pass interference call. There's all kinds of ways that you
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: could make a pass in offense, but you can throw
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: a flag for pass interference that to me doesn't necessarily.
• 48:56
  Speaker 6: They could call holding almost every every.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Every time, every time I'm the receiver and the dB
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: make contact, the receiver or the dB is grabbing his jersey.
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: So every single time that's contact you could call you
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: could call hold it.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: Okay. Now, my thing is you're going for the ball.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: Supposedly the rules supposedly states the ball's free in the air,
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: and you, as a wide receiver, you don't have access.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: You ain't first to get to it. I can have
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: the right to go to it myself as a as
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: a defender. Now however I go there, now that could
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: depend on if I if I bump you trying to
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: get to the ball, they may call me, well I'm
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: not talking.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: But again I think that's over.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: I don't mean this objective call. I mean what I'm
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: saying is that you are officiating the passion of the
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: game out of it where where it was a crackback right,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: So I'm watching it, the guys were turning a punt
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: and the guy returning the putt, he's watching his teammate
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: coming back and he's literally saying.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: To his teammate, don't do that. He's officiating his teammate
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: on the.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Field saying, don't don't cracking, don't cracking, and the teammate just,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of brushes the guys so he doesn't
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: get the call. And I'm saying, like the hard hits,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the dunks, the home runs, the the celebrations, and I
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: don't mean like the coordinated celebrations. I just mean those
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: in the moment, ah just being excited about the game.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: But my out of the gamers and I'm saying, part
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: of the corporatizing up this is it's just gonna be
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: guys walking up and down the court being robots and
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: and it's homeless.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: See, I don't know if see I don't think those
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: those plays are in the moment, like I don't. I
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: don't think all those like.
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: When I'm scoring this touchdown, Oh I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna do this dance.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: No, I don't mean that I'm saying.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: I'm saying for guys coming across the middle, you crack
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: and get the fumble, and you recovered the fumble. That's
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: not something you playing or somethinginually you did. You get up,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: you growl, you go, you just you're not you're not dancing,
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: you're growy, You're you're you're you're doing a Tom Brady.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: You're just you're passionate about that moment. This is the
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: stuff that's getting just over officiated. Like I said, it's
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: a rule for every freaking rule, it's a rule for
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: the rule.
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: He's absolutely right.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: All right, we got about three minutes.
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: I want to still try to make the case that
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: I think that I think individual players always have the
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: opportunity to to think about that celebration or I do.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: I do now. I don't think it was back in
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: the day. I do think now that it's it is.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: It is a goal for them to I want to
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: make a big play and then celebrate.
• 51:56
  Speaker 6: You think there's a difference between celebrating your play and
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: and and you know, thing that you did that you
• 52:01
  Speaker 6: excelled on the field at or and taunting someone. I
• 52:04
  Speaker 6: think there there's a difference. Like, I think it's okay
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: if if you catch that touchdown ball and you're you know,
• 52:10
  Speaker 6: kind of dancing around and doing your thing by yourself
• 52:12
  Speaker 6: without your teammates, that should not be a penalty. But
• 52:14
  Speaker 6: if you get in the other guy's face and he's going,
• 52:17
  Speaker 6: you know, doing all the hand motions and kind of
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: pointing and tawning, I think.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Talking about the middle. But I'm talking about the middle
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: of that. So I'm saying if you get if you
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: catch a lobby, you just dunk on something.
• 52:27
  Speaker 6: Remember he's a flag plan.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: If you ever dunked in it, if you ever dunked
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: in a basketball game, or you hit a home run, right,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: So if I dunk on somebody in the game, and
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: and and I just they just happened to be there
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: or are staying over from do to Michael Jordan's stare
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: down like, I'm not trying to.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: Taunt that guy.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: I'm just excited in the moment that I'm saying, these
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: are the things that are just getting officiated out of
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: the way. And like in addition to just having a
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't imagine reading the NFL or NBA
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: handbook like official.
• 53:01
  Speaker 6: Books the rules.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: Probably think it's of the encyclopedia because it's just rules
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: on rules, And I'm just saying there's too many rules
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: and officials have too big a part in the in
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: sports now, and we got to they got to scale
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: that back. All right, Well, ladies and gentlemen, there's Hollis
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: Lewis ran here against them, the officials, but we got
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: to get out of here.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: We'll see you again next week, you know. At