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IFH 732: How to Avoid Career Pitfalls for Screenwriters with Felicity Wren · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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  You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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  podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Indie Film Hussle
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  Podcast, Episode number seven thirty two. Screenwriting is the toughest part of the
• 0:18
  whole racket, the least understood and the least noticed. Rank Capra broadcasting from
• 0:26
  the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, where we
• 0:30
  show you how to survive and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
• 0:35
  the film biz. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome
• 0:40
  to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your humble host
• 0:43
  Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise of the Film Entrepreneur How to
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  turn your independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before
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  for independent filmmakers to make money with their films from predatory film distributors ripping them
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  of course audiobook. If you want to order it, just head over to
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  www. Dot filmbiz book dot com. That's film Bizbook dot com. Well,
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  guys, today on the show we have Felicity ren. Now, Felicity
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  works at the great organization called ISA, who helps screenwriters on their path,
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  do contests, do so many different things. But Felicity and I really got
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  into the weeds in this conversation not only about how to market yourself, market
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  your screenplay, but we basically this is kind of a masterclass on what to
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  do and what not to do as a screenwriter. Trying to build a career,
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  trying to look at the long game, all of these little things that
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  just came up in our conversation. It is just full of gold nuggets and
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  knowledge bombs all over the place. So, without any further ado, please
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  enjoy my conversation with Felicity Rent. I like to welcome to the show,
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  Felicity Ren. How you doing, Felicity, I'm really good. Thanks you,
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  Alex really get indeed, so thank you for coming on the show.
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  You know, I've been a big fan of what you guys do over at
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  Ica for a long time, and I thought it would be appropriate to have
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  you come on the show to talk about marketing because it's something that writers generally
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  don't think about, you know, career building and how to pitch, how
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  to actually try to pitch your story, how to get through all these gatekeepers,
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  all these kind of things. So I want to kind of do it
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  a little bit of a deep dive into marketing because it's it is unfortunately a
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  necessity in today's world. You know, you just can't write the Great American
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  screenplay and hope that the gods from Mount Holly would show up, and you're
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  like, you now shall write here's three million dollars this way to the Hollywood
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  Hills like that. That's not a thing. But a lot of screenwriters and
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  I know that you know this. I think that's the thing, and it's
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  not. It's another skill set now that we have to talk about, which
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  is marketing. But before we get into that, how did you get into
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  this business, this ridiculous business that is the industry. Yeah, we were
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  just talking about the fact that it's a bit of an abusive relationship. So
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  yeah, well, I kind of. I'm from the UK originally. I
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  think my accent does give it away. Just in case anyone was wondering what's
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  wrong. It's not Australia, it is the UK. And I was been
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  at pitpoint in South Africa. I was doing that South South Africa obviously obviously
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  makes that makes sense. So I always loved acting, and then I realized
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  that it's actually so difficult because you're always waiting to be picked. So I
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  thought, what could I do to change that? So the guy I was
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  seeing became my husband at the time. We started a theater company and we
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  actually found ourselves in a little theater and we started working with creative people and
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  people who were starting out in their career. And that was twenty years ago
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  and I still run that little venue in London, and eleven years ago I
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  was thinking, oh it is, surely there's more to life than this,
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  because I think I don't know if everyone feels the same, but I think
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  that even genetically, it says every seven years you become a completely new person.
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  Every selling your bookiness for dude. So I feel like if you're having
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  a lovely life, or even if you're not having a lovely life, that's
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  maybe a moment for you to think what else could I deal with myself?
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  And so I you know, you always had that Hollywood dream, much as
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  you were saying earlier about the writers going someone will discover me. I thought
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  I could come to Hollywood. He's gone from my genius. Is what I
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  like to say, is that, why hasn't Hollywood discovered my genius? Obviously?
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  And why hasn't Kevin Fay he called me up to direct the next Avengers?
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  I don't understand. Can you explain it to me? Facility, But
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  the reason that you do need to be there is one of those things to
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  kind of like, oh, not so much anymore. But it used to
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  feel like that, so I thought, well, Hollywood, you know,
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  just really needs a female British actress. It looks a bit like Meryl Streep's
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  daughter that she didn't have, who hasn't had any work done. So that's
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  my thinking, of course, very sensible, obviously not until unrealistic. Sure,
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  sure so. And the thing is, it's a funny because we were
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  talking about the pecking order of abuse in Holleywood and actors get the worst,
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  the worst of the stick that they have no control their commodities in the process.
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  Writers are right next door to them, they have a little bit more
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  slight bit more power in control. Uh, and then probably directors, filmmakers,
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  and then all the technical aspects of things. But I mean, and
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  this is something I've said before on the show, is you know, to
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  get into this business you have to be a slightly bit insane, because it's
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  not it is not a business that makes any sense of any any sort whatsoever.
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  I mean, because I mean, I've been in the business world,
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  and I've been in the film industry, and this is the only business in
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  the world where you could spend five million dollars and have a worthless product at
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  the end of it. I mean, am I wrong, like you could.
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  You could spend five million dollars over but over over selling out, you
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  know, over building a house with marble in this and it's in the wrong
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  neighborhood and the wrong location. Yet you still have a house with some value.
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  Might might be the full value what you spent, but there's value there.
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  You literally can have something that is worthless and spend five million dollars if
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  you don't know what you're doing in this business and how ill it's insane and
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  you know, and by the way, you can't even tell with what money
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  you get. If you put five millionaire, you're like, I think we're
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  gonna get five to ten back. Maybe what world is that a business?
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  It's not a business. And the thing about that I always feel as well,
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  if you kind of were in the business world, you can think,
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  I'm gonna start at the beginning, I'm gonna serve my apprenticeship, I'm gonna
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  work my way up, and someone's gonna notice how good I am. And
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  now I've been here for ten years, and then it's gonna mean something and
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  it's his' like, it doesn't none of that, None of those rules apply.
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  I think there is a kind of sense that maybe for an actor you
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  don't have to audition anymore, although Viola Davis is talking about the fact that
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  she still had to. I think that's changed a bit with them recently.
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  But you know, it's disgusting that she used to. There's why I see
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  them in effect right there, Jesus give But yeah, I mean, least
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  you know here, even if you're doing really well, and I think,
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  guy I can do really great. If you do a bomb project, then
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  you know, you go to Levie Jail and you're back when you started.
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  It's it's it's insane. You know. The old the old joke is,
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  how do you make millions in the film industry? You start with billions?
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  So, uh, how do you how do you make millions in the business?
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  You start with billions? But but it's but it's it's true. I
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  mean, and I'm kind of spotlighting and making poking fun of our industry because
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  it is it's insane. Obviously someone's making money. Generally it's not the artist,
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  and that's a whole other conversation. Generally it's not the artist. But
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  you know, there is a business somewhat in there, but at the independent
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  level and things like that's so hard to generate a new real revenue, especially
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  today's marketplace, and for screenwriters try to sell a script. I mean,
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  when I was coming up in the nineties, you know, we were still
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  in the boom of the spec script. It was kind of tailing off the
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  specscript boom of the eighties where Shane Black and Joe Estra House they were like
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  getting I mean, I think I read somewhere Joe Estra House made twenty million
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  dollars on films that never were produced, never were produced. I mean,
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  he did produce a he did a couple of really good movies. Yes,
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  the Kids. Yeah, don't get me right. I mean, he's he
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  wasn't like a anomaly. He was a really good writer and still is a
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  really good writer. But that that was kind of tailing off in the nineties,
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  and there wasn't nearly as much competition and there was nearly as much information
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  about I mean, I think when did Sidfield's book come out, like,
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  Oh my God, say the cat, No, No No. Sid Fields
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  was the basically the first book on like screen format. It was all about
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  screenwriting format. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
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  now back to the show. I think in the nineties, I think it
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  was in the midnightties. I don't say if the cat came in out in
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  the late nineties, but it was. Yeah, there wasn't a lot of
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  information yet, so the competition wasn't as fierce. But today everybody's a screenwriter,
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  everyone's a director, everyone's because there's so much more information about our industry.
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  So I mean, how do how do we cut through as a writer
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  in today's world? In your opinion, well, you have to know your
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  voice. I think that's the thing is like, more than anything is you
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  have to really kind of like drill into I mean, obviously it worked really
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  well for me being Meryl Street's daughters. You understand, didn't realize she had
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  that's miles to my benefit. But I think in really understanding what you bring
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  to a piece of work, to your work, to the industry, and
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  really then making the most of that and using everything everything that you have so
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  that you can understand that if there's a big push right now for Latina writers,
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  then if you're Latina, go for it. Don't go like I want
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  to be seen just because my writing is just like this, No, absolutely,
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  just to use everything you can I think to start at the very beginning
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  understanding yourself. Looking at the movies that touch you, Why do they touch
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  you? What is it about them? What the stories they keep telling will
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  probably tell you a lot about your own pressure points. Because I feel like
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  writing itself is a really therapy, isn't it. I mean, that's what
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  writers are doing. They're just working out what's going on inside them on the
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  page. So if you look at other movies that really touch you, I
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  think you'll get a bit of a clue as to what's really going on with
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  you. Then really understanding those ideas and working to really hone them and find
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  your way of presenting them that is different from other things you've seen, but
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  the same, because that's the other thing, you know, to be too
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  crazy, because people want things that have already made money. But I think
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  that's the first point, is understanding who you are, your voice, getting
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  really clear about it, the stories you want to tell, the themes that
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  you have that are important to you, and then start writing. I think
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  the idea that you just need one great script is a lie. I know
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  this. I think again that's still with that whole thing about I think there'd
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  been like one or two stories and where people have been swooped in and kind
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  of like it was my first script, it was my first acting role.
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  And that Yeah, Doblo Coody is a perfect example of that with Juno.
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  She got the oscar and all that stuff, and I was like, it
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  was my first script. And she had been writing for years. And that's
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  what people don't understand. She had been writing. She's been a prolific writer
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  before she did her first screenplay. But I always tell I always tell screenwriters
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  and filmmakers as well, that the only thing you have going for you is
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  your secret sauce, that thing that is unique to you, Like there can't
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  be another Quentin Tarantino, because he's already he's got them. He's cornered the
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  market on Quentin Tarantino, like Aras Sorkin has cornered the market on being Aaron
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  Sorkin. Like there's no one who's gonna be able to do that. No
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  one's gonna be able to be another alets for our or another felicity, Like
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  we have our thing that is ours, that gift, that that voice,
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  our experiences. It is so unique to us. And I think once writers
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  understand, all successful writers do this, all of them across all mediums are
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  the ones who tap into that that makes them special. The guy or the
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  gual who is copying or trying to imitate. And by the way, and
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  I'd love to hear your thought, we all do that. We all start
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  imitating because that's how we learn from filmmaking and screen writing. We start,
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  you know, we read the Shane Black scripts, we read the Tarantino scripts.
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  We're like, we gotta write script. The moment you sit down to
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  start to write dialogue like Tarantino, you realize, oh, this is not
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  possible because it's just something inside it. Like when you start writing Sorkin dialogue,
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  you go, I can't get the beats that he's doing, or Mam,
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  you can't because it's theirs. You can't. You could try to go
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  down that road, but I think once you start tapping into that well inside
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  of you is when the magic start happy. And do you agree? I
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  totally agree with that. And I feel because the things you said at the
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  beginning is there's no guarantee about really being in this business, so you should
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  do it for the love of it. So if you really love sitting down
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  writing, getting these stories out, thinking about your characters, exploring where they
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  might go. Then at least you'll have the pleasure of that, regardless of
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  what happens. I mean, of course, you want something to happen,
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  and you aspire for that, And there are things you can do to put
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  yourself out there so that more people know about you. I think you have
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  to be brave, understand what your ideas are, and then don't be afraid
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  to share them, because actually people want to hear about you. We want
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  I think this idea that only some stories matter is false. All stories matter.
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  We're all human beings on this planet trying to get through, trying to
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  make trying to make ends meet, trying to cope with heartbreak and enjoy you
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  know, all the gamut of emotions. But the way we connect is through
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  story and through understanding and really having compassion and empathy with another person. And
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  you don't know. I always say to my writers, I'm like, you
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  don't know what that one story that you've written, that one line, that
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  one moment, that one scene will do for someone else who either reads it
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  or watches it and suddenly they feel seen, And that is probably that should
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  be enough for you to sit down and go like I'm going to do it
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  for that. I mean, if so one person and then I feel better,
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  then that's enough. And then from there, of course, if you
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  want to make money. But if you start from that, I think,
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  very sweet, unique place. Now are you telling me then that you shouldn't
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  get into this business for the money. Is that what you're trying to say?
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  I mean I got into some maybe rich obviously, so why it hasn't
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  happened yet? But that's why I started, obviously because this is the place
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  to make money. I mean, somebody in this business. I kid,
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  I kid, but but it's truth. So many, so many writers and
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  filmmakers come into this business like I'm going to be rich. You know.
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  It's like, hey, he's going to be He's going to be raining Benjamin's
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  all day. Because you read the stories and you hear the press that Hollywood
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  does. I've always said that Hollywood was extremely good at the sizzle, but
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  sucks at the steak. And they sell the They sell the Hollywood dream so
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  beautiful. They've been selling the Hollywood dream since the twenties, since you know,
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  since Chaplin jumped out, you know, or the Keystone cops were running
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  around. They were selling the Hollywood dream and I always tell people who haven't
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  been to La, I go. The perfect example or analogy for Hollywood is
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  this. It's the Oscars. When you go down to Hollywood Boulevard on Oscar
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  night, Mike, God, it looks amazing, doesn't it. Oh,
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  it looks great on television. It's great. And then your family flies into
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  La and they're like, Hey, I want to go down to Hollywood Boulevard
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  at the Chinese Theater. I'm like, you don't want to do that now,
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  No, No, it's great. No, it's great. I want
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  to go see it. I'm like, you don't want to do that.
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  So I did the same thing when I first got here with a friend of
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  mine who lived here before I moved here, and I went to downtown,
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  downtown and I went to Hollywood Boulevard and we parked where Madame Tussau's is now.
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  That was an empty parking lot back then. And I parked and the
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  moment we got out, there was a woman who walked by and she's just
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  like, welcome to Hollywood, and she lifted up and flashed us, and
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  I was like my wife and I were just like, well, and my
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  friend goes, welcome to Hollywood and we walked down the street and I just
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  my wife was clinching to me because it was not I'm like, oh my.
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  And the farther you will get away from the from the Dolby's Theater,
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  Oh, it gets shadier and shadier and shadier. And that is as it
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  looks almost like a cesspool other than that little block. Am I wrong?
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  I mean? And that is perfect analogy for Hollywood because it shows you on
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  the screen. Oh, it's up pretty, but the second the show is
• 18:15
  over, they pull up the red carpet and it's like needles in the Also
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  in the datters, it's insane. Yeah, that corner is particularly ugly as
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  well when the red carpet is gone. But it literally from above, when
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  you've got the seats down, you can't see the street. There is absolutely
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  nothing there. And then you're just accustomed by people out of a work,
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  poor actors dressed as Disney characters, trying to take that photo with you.
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  And then it just gets further down to it's really stripper attire. The stops
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  further down, the shops further down. But it is the absolute opposite of
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  what you think. There is no paid with gold in Hollywood. That is
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  not true. It's a bull of are broken dreams. That's damn sure.
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  I mean it's as cliche is that is, once you're here. I've been
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  here for over a decade, and when I got here, the streets were
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  paid for gold. For me, I was like, oh my god,
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  look there's Warner Brothers. Oh look, there's Disney. Oh look there's a
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  post House. I was so excited just to be in the business. About
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  a year or two in, you're just like, oh, yeah, this
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  is this is the reality. Okay, okay, this is how this game
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  is played now. But at first you don't. And that's one of the
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  reasons why I do what I do is because I want to warn people uh
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  trying to get into this business. Look, I'm not saying don't follow your
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  dreams, but you've got to be prepared for what's coming, and most people
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  are. Most people are not prepared for that. I always say people,
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  the punch. We're all going to get punched. We all get punched throughout
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  our throughout our careers, no matter who you are, if you're Steven Spielberg,
• 19:44
  if you're we all get punched by this business. And occasionally you learn
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  how to avoid the punch. You learn how to duck, you learn how
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  to take the head a little bit easier. But if you don't know that
• 19:53
  there's a fight. We'll be right back after for a word from our sponsor,
• 20:03
  and now back to the show. You're going to get knocked out in
• 20:08
  the first one, and how many writers have you run into who the first
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  time that punch comes, whatever that punch might be, they're out for the
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  count and they just like, I'm out. I don't want to do this
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  because they weren't prepared for it. Well, I think as well as so
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  many things can be disappointing, and especially if you're a writer, a baby
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  writer, or someone that's doing it as a second career. We have a
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  lot of that. Then you were used to a certain set of rules.
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  You know, if you're a baby writer, then you just come from school
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  or a college and everything's been pretty easy until that point, you know,
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  And if you're a second career and then they had those rules again that you
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  could work hard enough and people would understand and you would get somewhere, whereas
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  it's just not like that here. So people promise you things and then they
• 20:53
  don't do what they say they're going to do, and so you have to
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  understand that you can. It's a weird thing though, because I do still
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  think you need to celebrate all the time to keep your morall up. So
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  the fact is that someone says, I want to oh your prodject, you
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  should be like whoa. You know, you should literally like run around your
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  front room. You should call your friends. You should if you drink,
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  have a beer. If you don't drink, have a laqui. This is
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  not an advt for QA, you know, do something to go like,
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  oh my goodness, this is amazing. Someone has realized my work, seen
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  it and liked it, and that's wonderful, and then just get back to
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  work. Because until it's actually signed, the contract is signed, until the
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  money has gone over, till even it's there, starts printipal photography, until
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  princeal photography has stopped, till it's in the editing room, until it's all
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  done, done, done. It doesn't even really exist until you're at the
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  premiere. Yeah, you get on a screen or on your home screen at
• 21:52
  a digital premiere. Nowadays, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. I
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  know it's shocking for people to listen to, but here in Hollywood people do
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  exaggerate sometimes and they lie straight up and they tell you they're going to do
• 22:06
  something they don't, And the first few times that happens to you, you're
• 22:10
  just like, wow, this sucks, and it's it's it's rough. It's
• 22:15
  a rough goal. But no question, I think it's because everyone's trying to
• 22:22
  kind of push each other a white push up off each other, and this
• 22:27
  is I don't mean it sounds so cynical, but it's so hard to get
• 22:32
  a movie made that you're like, well, if I get someone attached,
• 22:34
  then maybe someone will then put the money up. So you kind of like
• 22:38
  you lie to both parties to say that this person's attached, so do you
• 22:41
  want to put the money and then you go, this person put the money
• 22:44
  up, so do you want to be attached? And there's that kind of
• 22:47
  children legg Yeah, that really I think can be that that's where it can
• 22:52
  all fall apart, because actually nothing is really set in stone until it's set
• 22:55
  in the stone, and like we say that's it when it's all done.
• 22:57
  So I think you have to find ways to make it almost like a game
• 23:03
  for yourself, so it's more lighthearted. I think to kind of stay in
• 23:07
  a place of it would be great if that happens, but it's not going
• 23:12
  to ruin my life, you know. So that's where you need lots of
• 23:15
  other stuff. I think the other thing to remember in this business is that
• 23:18
  you do need friends, family, hobbies, you know, other bits of
• 23:23
  your life to feel you up because this, whenever this is, is never
• 23:27
  going to be enough. And so when you let down, you still have
• 23:32
  other things and you're like, way and go to the beach. So,
• 23:33
  Okay, I can stop writing for a day. I can do that.
• 23:36
  I can I can go for dinner with my lovely partner, I can do
• 23:38
  something that makes me remember that I am a human being living on the planet
• 23:41
  and this is just one of the things I do. However, you have
• 23:45
  to have a passion for it, but it's still one of the things you
• 23:47
  do. That was the biggest mistake, one of the biggest mistakes I've made
• 23:49
  coming up, is that my entire identity was associated with being filmmaker and being
• 23:53
  a director, like that was my whole life. And to a certain extent,
• 24:00
  you have to kind of be that obsessive, especially at the beginning.
• 24:03
  You have to be. But that balance that you and I are talking about
• 24:07
  is it's only because of the age. You know, we've been around the
• 24:10
  block. Hey, we've been around the block a little bit. It's like,
• 24:12
  you know, just to speak what you just said, it was so
• 24:15
  eloquent and wise. I don't hear twenty year olds speaking like that generally speaking,
• 24:21
  and it happens every once in a while, but very rarely. So
• 24:23
  that is just you just got to kind of go through it and you realize
• 24:27
  this. So hopefully people are listening. We're at that age can take these
• 24:30
  notes and understand that that I know you're trying hard to break through and I'm
• 24:36
  writing and this, but if you completely attach your identity to the craft of
• 24:41
  screenwriting or of filmmaking or being in this business, you will never ever be
• 24:48
  happy. I don't care if you win an Oscars, because I've spoken to
• 24:52
  Oscar winners who've won the Oscar and then they're like, now what because and
• 24:56
  when that if you don't win the Oscar the next year, I'm a failure,
• 25:00
  Like how crazy is this? There's things like that. So you have
• 25:03
  to have a balance in life. And I'm so blessed to have a family
• 25:07
  that balanced me because when I was young, I was it was first ten
• 25:11
  years. There was just that's all it was. But I was very very
• 25:15
  depressed, very unhappy because it was just this kind of high and a little
• 25:18
  high and little high constantly, and you never you never had this baseline.
• 25:25
  It was just constantly highs and lows. So you'd be so happy one day
• 25:29
  and you would crash the next because that guy lied to you, or the
• 25:34
  financing fell through, which was never really going to happen anyway, because it
• 25:37
  was just some kid with a trust fund who said, oh, Mommy's not
• 25:41
  going to give me the money this week. So you know, these are
• 25:44
  the things the human condition that is next, isn't it. It's like next.
• 25:48
  So you get there and you think, oh my god, I would
• 25:49
  be so happy if I moved to Hollywood. You moved to Hollywood, You're
• 25:52
  like, Okay, what's next. I'll be so happy if someone read my
• 25:55
  script next then they want to then, and you kind of lose try of
• 26:00
  that moment when you were a little person just wanting to move to Hollywood and
• 26:03
  being able to look back and think, actually, I have come so far
• 26:07
  and I'm doing so well, and am I enjoying this process? That is
• 26:12
  what it should be, am Am. I taking a moment each day to
• 26:15
  be grateful and just to say wow. I feel like being a storyteller is
• 26:19
  one of the best jobs on earth. I mean, I know it's not
• 26:22
  easy, but getting to dig into the human idea again to tell stories about
• 26:29
  love and triumph and changing the world, I mean, what an amazing thing
• 26:34
  to do. I think there are lots of jobs where people are just earning
• 26:40
  a paycheck, and you know, I respect them so much because that's hard
• 26:45
  just to do that, just to do something for the paycheck. Whereas with
• 26:48
  the story, you actually get to go, like disappear into your mind and
• 26:53
  imagine a different way for yourself and for others. And I just think it's
• 26:57
  such a privilege to be here, so enjoy it in them in this process,
• 27:03
  really put yourself on the back more often than not, you know,
• 27:07
  take a stop and go like, this is amazing. I'm so glad I'm
• 27:11
  here. I'm so glad I'm doing this, And even when it's rubbish,
• 27:14
  it's just showing me how good it's going to feel when it's great. And
• 27:17
  I want to point something out that you just said, the process. I
• 27:19
  think that that's where so many screenwriters fail, is that they don't enjoy the
• 27:23
  process. They're only looking at the outcome, and they're putting so much pressure
• 27:27
  on their work and their art that it can never live up to it.
• 27:32
  I used to do that constantly with my work. When I would release a
• 27:34
  short film, I'm like, this is the one, this is the one
• 27:37
  that's gonna blow me up, this is the one that Steven Spielberg is going
• 27:40
  to see and he's going to come down from Mount Holly. Would tap me
• 27:41
  on the shoulders, like, now you show do Jurassic Park seven now,
• 27:45
  like that was that was the and when it didn't do that, which it
• 27:48
  doesn't and it can't. And the people, and I've spoken to the people
• 27:53
  that that has happened to, by the way, and every one of them
• 27:57
  never expected that, nor never thought it was going to happen. Like I
• 28:00
  was just making a short film and all of a sudden someone from Hollywood show
• 28:06
  it up and they're like, hey, do you want to make the feature
• 28:07
  version of that? And here's a couple of like literally that conversation. They
• 28:11
  never said, Oh, this is the thing that's going to blow me up.
• 28:12
  No one ever said that. One of the famous con one of the
• 28:15
  famous mythical stories is El Mariachi, which is Robert Rodriguez is And people still
• 28:22
  talk about that movie as the like, well, he did a movie for
• 28:25
  seven thousand dollars and we couldn't get into all that another time. But but
• 28:29
  he was making that movie and everyone's like, oh, he was just making
• 28:32
  that movie to get found. No, he's making that movie for the Spanish
• 28:36
  VHS market and happened to drop it off at an agent's a friend of his
• 28:41
  who worked as the assistant to an agent. That agent happened to be the
• 28:45
  biggest directing agent in Hollywood. He saw it, but it wasn't and when
• 28:49
  he were going to release A Mariachi's like, no, no, no,
• 28:52
  no, no no, give me the money to remake it. I don't.
• 28:55
  I don't want to. This was I was just playing I don't want
• 28:57
  people to see this and that and that was a thing. So writers have
• 29:02
  to understand that as well, that you have to enjoy the process and the
• 29:06
  moment that I started, I started to enjoy writing or enjoy what I do
• 29:11
  on a daily basis and never put an outcome towards it. I became so
• 29:15
  much happier. Yeah, it's like everything in life isn't it. It's like,
• 29:22
  if you're trying too hard, is it worth the cost of that?
• 29:26
  So if you're looking for a lot, if you want to be in love,
• 29:27
  don't look for it. It's that same kind of thing. You do
• 29:30
  it because you're having a nice moment telling the story, and then keep telling
• 29:37
  them, keep telling them. And I think that's the other thing about I
• 29:40
  think we started with that is that I think you should really be thinking about
• 29:44
  ideas and writing out the ideation, you know, really spending some time every
• 29:48
  week every month. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and
• 29:59
  now back to the ship to just think, okay, reading articles, what's
• 30:03
  exciting me right now? What is kind of like happening in the world that
• 30:07
  is important but it still is relates to me and is relevant to my life
• 30:11
  and the things that I care about, and just say, like, just
• 30:14
  start writing ideas out about, like, so, what would happen if if
• 30:18
  these people, if these people who I'm trying to think of an example,
• 30:23
  had cap is landed all the moon and it's not a great one, it
• 30:26
  would be a very niche market. But you know, so start thinking about
• 30:33
  what ifs and ideas and stuff like that. So you're always trying to generate
• 30:36
  new ideas that are relevant to what's happening socially right now, and that are
• 30:38
  also kind of still touch who you are, so that you're not stuck as
• 30:44
  well on just the grind of this one script that maybe you're working on that
• 30:48
  you're madly in love with but might need a little bit of time away.
• 30:52
  It doesn't mean to say that you get writing on fifteen things at once,
• 30:56
  that we focused on those scripts you're writing on, but then think, take
• 31:00
  some time to write some other ideas so that if you are ever in pitching
• 31:04
  this fabula script that you're in love with and they ask you what else you
• 31:07
  have, then you have ten to fifteen other ideas ready to go that they
• 31:11
  can talk to you about. Because, as we know, even if they're
• 31:12
  only going to buy one of the scripts from you, they're actually buying you
• 31:15
  the writer rather than just the script. And so you want to show that
• 31:19
  you're that kind of writer that's full of ideas and really can be flexible and
• 31:25
  move with them. And if they start talking, you can start riffing back,
• 31:27
  and you know they want it. It's like a marriage you're going to
• 31:30
  get in bed with them for a long time if they take your script and
• 31:33
  lets you start to make it. I was talking to a screenwriter the other
• 31:36
  day, a very successful screenwriter, and he's like, when I went to
• 31:38
  a pitch, this is what I did. I would have the eight minute
• 31:41
  pitch for my big script that I loved, and then they would go,
• 31:45
  that's great, what do you have? What else do you have? Then
• 31:48
  he would go into a script and two minute pitch for another script you add,
• 31:52
  and he was like boom boom, Yeah, that's great, what else
• 31:55
  do you have? Then he does this thumbnail twenty second pitch and they're like,
• 31:59
  that's the one, and you just never you never know. He's like,
• 32:01
  all right, that's the one you want to buy, Okay, we'll
• 32:04
  sell you that one. So you have to have multiple things. And I
• 32:07
  always tell screenwriters as well that if you're working on a script for two three
• 32:12
  years and it's just one script and that's the only thing you're writing on,
• 32:15
  you are not a professional. You're a hobbyist. At that point. You're
• 32:17
  not a professional. You have to professional writers write and write a lot and
• 32:22
  have multiple scripts. You know, I know, you don't have to multiple
• 32:24
  scripers going at the same time, though, I find it to be helpful
• 32:28
  to be jumped back and forth sometimes maybe between two or three. Maybe yeah,
• 32:31
  not fifteen, but two or three. But you should always have product
• 32:36
  and ideas. You would need to walk into meetings with minimum of three ideas
• 32:40
  or scripts ready to rock and roll, if not five or six. And
• 32:45
  you're really not going to be any good at writing until you're probably into your
• 32:50
  fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, if not twenty screenplay unless you're a
• 32:55
  prodigy, and they do come, but that's the the outlier, and you
• 33:00
  can't really Hey, well, quin turneteer, I'm like, stop it,
• 33:04
  stop right there. Stop well Eric sort stop stop don't put your name in
• 33:10
  the same sentence with that, because they're a different level than you are,
• 33:15
  and it's not better or words, it's just at a different place in their
• 33:16
  career than you are. And and the kind of town it's like, well
• 33:20
  Mozart started look now, you know, like like I picked up the I
• 33:23
  picked up the piano when Mozart was seven. I'm like, really, really
• 33:27
  he was seven, Really are you preparing yourself one of the greatest all time?
• 33:32
  But that's how that's the insanity of screenwriters and filmmakers. I know.
• 33:37
  The good news is you can get better at it. You know that you
• 33:39
  can get better at it, and that actually it's not as ages as are
• 33:43
  the bits of the profession. So you can get better. And it doesn't
• 33:46
  matter how old you are in the same way, unless you're looking. I
• 33:51
  was talking to someone the other day, a millennial, as you know,
• 33:53
  she's probably the younger than that. She's like three twenty two. And then
• 34:00
  millennials anymore are like and the I forgot the new yeah, not even more
• 34:05
  anesty and that new generation is any one old. We are so awful listening.
• 34:12
  We are ancient. We are ancient. We are dating ourselves. Let's
• 34:15
  just watch them friends, Let's go to Blockbuster the VHS and just watching it
• 34:20
  today. I mean, seriously, we're that old. She was talking to
• 34:24
  me about dialogue and she was like, oh god, all these millennials writing
• 34:30
  this dialogue for our generation. And I was like, I mean, because
• 34:34
  I was like, oh, these aren't me. That means the heart,
• 34:40
  I mean, you're just like, oh gosh. And I was like,
• 34:44
  yeah, so then okay, then I think you've got to She's a writer
• 34:47
  too, so I was like, then you need to get out there and
• 34:50
  actually all these people in rooms need to be going like into a hiring from
• 34:53
  rooms need to be going, Okay, I need to find me some baby
• 34:55
  writers because we think we know how people are speaking and and not speaking that
• 35:00
  way. So it's actually gets some authenticity in the room. And I think
• 35:04
  that's something I've really enjoyed this year. COVID didn't just previously to COVID.
• 35:08
  This whole kind of thing is this search for authenticity in writing and in rooms
• 35:14
  and in TV shows and features that you seeing all dudes kind of writing young
• 35:22
  women and stuff like that. I feel like it's great that things are changing.
• 35:25
  Yeah, no, there's no question. And you're starting to see more
• 35:29
  and more diversity in movies and television shows. And it's not that the old
• 35:36
  white guys story is not good. It's just that's all we had. We
• 35:38
  need to have other points of view because that's not the country we live in.
• 35:44
  And having those other points of view are fantastic and I'm really glad that
• 35:47
  that's happening now and giving opportunities to I mean, being a screenwriter in the
• 35:52
  nineties, I'm not sure a white dude. It was as rough. I
• 35:57
  remember coming up as a Latino in Miami, and they said, if you
• 36:01
  direct the Spanish commercial, you won't be able. They won't allow you to
• 36:06
  do English language anymore, because I would then be put in the box of
• 36:12
  he's a Latino director does Latin American or Latino commercials, because god forbid,
• 36:17
  if I could aim a camera at a Spanish speaking person, I can't aim
• 36:21
  a camera at an English speaking person, you know, or I don't even
• 36:25
  get me started that whole world. But that was that was that was the
• 36:29
  fear. And I had done some Spanish commercials and I'd like, I can't
• 36:31
  put them on my reel because I would get I would get ousted from the
• 36:36
  room. It was just insane. It was just like, I'm glad that
• 36:40
  the multi hyphen that has become a thing. Though I think though that has
• 36:44
  become, it didn't used to be. And I think everyone was very much
• 36:46
  more if you were an actor or an actor, if you're right, you're
• 36:50
  right, if you're a film like, you're a film like, you're a
• 36:52
  director, you know, I mean, you weren't allowed to do all those
• 36:53
  things. It's like you're almost being greedy, whereas now actually they want you
• 36:57
  to do those things. But it also means that you have to, as
• 37:00
  a screenwriter or a filmmaker or anyone in this industry, treat yourself like a
• 37:06
  business. You are a business person, and I've been talking to people recently
• 37:12
  and I think even going so far as to become a producer yourself as a
• 37:16
  screenwriter, so you can hire yourself as a producer on four scripts if they're
• 37:22
  going to get made by somebody, So that you can be fired off the
• 37:27
  script as a screenwriter, but that you're still on in some capacity as a
• 37:30
  producer is something to think of. So everything you're doing now, when you're
• 37:34
  trying to get your script out there, think of it as a business person,
• 37:37
  not as a creative. And that's why you kind of need your head
• 37:39
  split down the middle. I would say, and I'm sure you would agree,
• 37:42
  is that half this business and half is creative. Because this business half
• 37:45
  has to be making the deals, learning how to build a pitch deck,
• 37:51
  being good on the phone, selling something, learning like that is the business
• 37:58
  side, and the other creative side it's you. I'm going to tell this
• 38:00
  amazing story about things I love, you know, so I could the two
• 38:02
  halts well, like I always say, there's the word show on the word
• 38:07
  business and the word business as twice as many letters is the word show.
• 38:09
  And there's a there is a reason, Yes it does. One needs the
• 38:15
  other. But without the money, they ain't no show. Because they'll put
• 38:20
  on a show. It could suck, but they'll put on a show.
• 38:22
  But the money is what really is going now. I was talking to some
• 38:25
  of the other day that about branding, and they were a screenwriting team and
• 38:30
  the very successful screenwriting team from the eighties and nineties, and I was talking
• 38:35
  to them and they were saying that they branded themselves in town as the rewrite
• 38:40
  guys. They would be known as the guys would come in to troubled projects
• 38:45
  and rewrite these projects and in specific genres. So they did romantic comedies and
• 38:52
  and action which was weird. It was like say, they would add a
• 38:55
  little bit of comedy to action projects and things like that. And I think
• 39:00
  as a as a as a screenwriter, even at a certain level, you
• 39:05
  need to think about branding, branding yourself in the business because the business wants
• 39:08
  to throw you in a box. They need to throw you in a box
• 39:12
  for their their small minds to to put you to to be able to deal
• 39:15
  with you, because there's just so many things. If you do everything,
• 39:21
  I can't, I don't know where to put you. So you need to
• 39:22
  kind of find a niche at the beginning. You could venture out later,
• 39:27
  but at the beginning, you need to find a niche and focus on that
• 39:29
  niche and become a brand on that. And it could be you're the dialogue
• 39:32
  person. You're you know, I can, I can do rewrites. I'm
• 39:37
  really good at you know, subplots. There's things as far as getting work,
• 39:43
  not selling the million dollar spec, working as a writer. I think
• 39:46
  that's so powerful because every every major screenwriter you could think of, they had
• 39:52
  their niche. I mean, Quentin was rewriting Crimson Tide. Will be right
• 39:59
  back for a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Uh,
• 40:07
  And you can tell the scene that he rewrote because it's so clearly him
• 40:13
  because Denzel Washington in a nuclear stuff is talking about silver surfer, so so
• 40:20
  it's like, oh, that's the good, dirtya stuff. But he was.
• 40:23
  He was. He was brought in to punch up dialogue when he was
• 40:27
  starting out because that was his brand. Would you agree about branding and how
• 40:31
  do screenwriters? If you agree brand themselves in the business. Yeah, it's
• 40:37
  a really interesting question. I leached all to our writers on our developments late
• 40:45
  and the way we ask them to talk about themselves is that if you were
• 40:50
  a Hollywood producer, because they're all producer from anywhere quite frankly, but you
• 40:54
  were clicking through and you were looking at your profile, So the kind of
• 40:59
  like the bio of you, the story of you. What kind of writer
• 41:02
  would they get if they hired you? So are you someone who is fascinated
• 41:08
  by familiar relationships and how they explode and how life can be different if you
• 41:19
  come from a blended family or do you do you like to focus on dialogue
• 41:23
  and comedy and unpicking stories and from narratives that we've already heard, you know
• 41:30
  what I mean? So whatever you because I feel again it's that thing really
• 41:32
  started within the idea that knowing who you are and what your pressure points are
• 41:37
  and what your story is that is your brand. So you have to kind
• 41:42
  of get very kind of clinical I think, and dissect and go into your
• 41:46
  work and go like, what are the things I keep talking about that Actually,
• 41:50
  if someone was going through and they went, I want to punch up
• 41:52
  the dialogue and a family script with a breakup, and you like, I'm
• 41:55
  really interested in relationships and breaking up and kind of then they've got that for
• 42:00
  you. I think it's I think if you were particularly interested in the horror
• 42:06
  or something like that, and so like I seem to be drawn towards these
• 42:08
  kind of genres, then to put that in as well. But I feel
• 42:13
  like how you tell a story and the kind of beats of it, the
• 42:17
  heart of it, even in these different genres, will probably remain pretty similar
• 42:22
  because that, as you said, is your special source. So I guess
• 42:27
  what you're asking for the brand is to find your special source and articulate it
• 42:30
  correctly, write it, articulate it if you will, yes, and promote
• 42:36
  yourself that way. You're right. I think one of the bigger mistakes that
• 42:39
  a lot of early or baby screenwriters is you like to call them, do,
• 42:43
  is that they're like, oh, I write horror, romantic comedies,
• 42:45
  actions in sci fi. Like you're done. There's just no way no one's
• 42:50
  going to hire you because they don't want a generalist. They want a specialist
• 42:53
  when it's writing. Would you agree that they're like, I'm an action producer,
• 42:58
  I want a guy or a who just loves action and writes action and
• 43:04
  if there's a little humor in it, all the better great. But I
• 43:07
  need someone who's focused on action, or I lean someone who's focused in horror
• 43:12
  and thrillers, or I need someone who's focused in sci fi or in romantic
• 43:15
  comedies or comedies. Do you agree? I think? I mean, I
• 43:19
  feel like it's got a bit because of much more genre busting, and I
• 43:22
  think genres themselves have become a bit more fluent. But I think it's that
• 43:27
  thing about as you were kind of saying, is you can't be an expert
• 43:30
  in everything, and if you are trying to build up your career, you
• 43:34
  should be trying to find producers, directors, managers, these kind of people
• 43:39
  that like people like you. So in a way, you want to kind
• 43:45
  of work out what your voice is, what your brand is, so that
• 43:47
  then you can be very targeted in your approach. If you are thinking about
• 43:51
  producers you'd like to work with or that might like to work with you,
• 43:54
  so what do you have in your portfolio that is like work that they have
• 43:59
  produced, and then see if you can find a way to get to them.
• 44:02
  I mean, it's always trying to find kind of roads in but that
• 44:07
  I think helps you decide who your brand is and what your brand is,
• 44:12
  and then where you can target your approach a manager. If they answer that,
• 44:16
  I would say, probably tries to cover all bases. But see if
• 44:21
  there's a hole in their roster. So they've got a cantmedy person, they've
• 44:23
  got an action person, they've got a TV person, but they haven't got
• 44:27
  someone that's really focused on horror, then maybe you could approach that would be
• 44:30
  your approach? Is that I see I really like these interesting characters that are
• 44:34
  in difficult situations. I particularly like horror that's psychological rather than gruesome. I
• 44:39
  see that you have done your other writers and your roster do this is and
• 44:44
  this? I feel like this is maybe a place where I could fit in
• 44:47
  your roster if you're looking right now. So I think branding will help you
• 44:52
  across the board in your sales pitch. Can you also now myth bust this
• 45:00
  concept that all I need is an agent in my life is going to be
• 45:04
  better. All I need is a manager to sell me and then they will
• 45:07
  see my genius and the millions will roll in. Can you please bust this
• 45:14
  myth for anyone listening. I always say, there's a reason why they take
• 45:20
  you. They take ten and you get ninety. And it's because even if
• 45:23
  you get a manager at maximum, they're going to do ten percent of the
• 45:28
  work and you do ninety percent. That's great, that's great. I love
• 45:30
  that. I've never read that one. That's great. So I mean,
• 45:32
  like the idea that they're going to they're going to take you on and them
• 45:36
  that you're going to sit by the phone and it's going to ring, and
• 45:37
  it's the same for actors, you know, I mean, that is not
• 45:40
  not going to happen. The best thing you could do if you were going
• 45:45
  to meet with the managers or try and get in touch with them or try
• 45:49
  and you know, there's a whole thing Twitter, follow on Twitter. You
• 45:52
  know, do your homework on IMDb Pro. This is not an advert for
• 45:57
  IMDb Pro. But find out you know who their writers are. Is that
• 46:00
  you nowadays can find out a lot about who they are and what they want
• 46:07
  so that you when you approach them and you go like, actually, I
• 46:09
  think I might be a right fit for you, and I've done some homework
• 46:12
  as to where I think my projects might land in the industry. They're like,
• 46:15
  thank god, I don't have to think about that. They've already given
• 46:20
  me. If they like you and they like your work, they're like,
• 46:22
  wow, I already have a starting point. I don't have to think about
• 46:24
  where I'm going to send them because if I agree with some of these ideas
• 46:28
  and that's taken some of the work away from me already. Managers are looking,
• 46:31
  like most people, to do as little as they can for as much
• 46:35
  return as they can. And depending on where you are in the roster again,
• 46:39
  they've got lots of people at the top that they have to be seen
• 46:43
  to be doing a lot more. For if you've just signed with them,
• 46:46
  you are literally the last person there. Or they might give you a bit
• 46:49
  of a burst at the beginning where they're like, okay, you around town
• 46:51
  and you have this kind of flurry at the beginning. If nothing happens,
• 46:53
  then then it will be crickets and nothing will happen ever again, So this
• 46:59
  idea that they are going to look after you and change your world as absolute
• 47:02
  rubbish. But it does give you. It gives you a tick, it
• 47:07
  gives you an authenticity, It gives you someone else has chosen you for when
• 47:10
  you can then go out into the world and approach other people, and you
• 47:14
  go like, well, I'm signed with this manager, so therefore let's have
• 47:16
  this conversation. Yeah, and I noticed you kept saying manager and you didn't
• 47:22
  say the word agent very often in that conversation, because it's very true.
• 47:25
  Managers are a little bit more open to nurturing careers slightly but slightly more.
• 47:30
  Agents are mercenaries. They're absolutely merks. Totally the business. Yeah, it's
• 47:37
  just the business. And for screenwriters, you have to understand that no agent
• 47:40
  is the agent is only going to sign you if they believe they can make
• 47:44
  money with you. And the easier the money, the better. You just
• 47:46
  want Sundays, I'll sign you because I know I'll be able to probably flip
• 47:51
  you really quickly and make a little quick cash. You're a commodity, that's
• 47:53
  what That's what it is. Look at you look at these huge movie stars
• 47:58
  from the eighties and nineties. Are not at CIA anymore, They're not at
• 48:01
  William Morris anymore. They're at there at second tier because their career doesn't is
• 48:07
  not making twenty mili. He's not making she's not making twenty million a pop
• 48:12
  anymore. So it's business. It's business where a manager will kind of a
• 48:19
  little bit more. But uh yeah, you're right. The water bottle tool,
• 48:22
  they might throw you on the water bottle tour. And if no one,
• 48:25
  if there's no bytes on that shotgun, it's a shotgun approach essentially,
• 48:30
  like to throw you out there. See if anyone bites. If someone bites,
• 48:32
  great, if no one bites, Okay, let's see what happens.
• 48:36
  We'll hold them, you know, we'll hold them around, or I'll hold
• 48:38
  her around for a little bit to see what happens. But it's the it's
• 48:42
  the case. And like you said, the more the more of a complete
• 48:45
  package you can bring to them as a writer, the more likely you're going
• 48:51
  to get. So if you are a prolific writer who is now not only
• 48:54
  written screenplays, but has multiple selling books, sell published books on Amazon,
• 49:02
  you have a website, you have maybe even a small following from your books,
• 49:07
  you've got a business, you've packaged all this together. You bring something
• 49:13
  like that to them, they're going to take that writer much more than the
• 49:17
  writer who's just like this is the one forget it, that's over. Well,
• 49:25
  it's a nice idea, but it's just again, it's that they only
• 49:29
  the manager only has so much time too in their day, and they all
• 49:32
  want to make money themselves, you know, so if you can help them
• 49:37
  make money from you, then they're going to be like, thank you very
• 49:39
  much, I've been looking for you. I need to review. Yeah,
• 49:44
  exact. And so I think it's just to empower yourself. I mean,
• 49:49
  we talked about this earlier, Alex and I. You know, the actor
• 49:52
  has nothing until they start writing, you know. And b if you're a
• 49:54
  screenwriter, you know in a way you're waiting to be picked. We'll be
• 50:00
  right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
• 50:09
  So how how can you help yourself? You write a lot, and
• 50:14
  then you do the research so that if something does come along, you already
• 50:17
  if someone if you're in a lift somehow forever goes in and elevator, that's
• 50:22
  the word that you can pitch your project. You know where it would land
• 50:27
  in streaming or TV. You know, producers that might be interested in it.
• 50:31
  And you've already done this work. And if someone saying that, what
• 50:34
  are you doing that? Now I get well, I'm doing this and I
• 50:35
  think if you write for HBO, Max, But I'm just await, my
• 50:37
  manager's speaking to a few people over there. Then suddenly you can speak with
• 50:43
  authorities and they're like, oh, I should go back to It's okay,
• 50:45
  yeah, someone you know then, because everyone likes to hear those kind of
• 50:49
  trigger words, that then maybe means that they should be interested in having a
• 50:52
  look themselves, and it means that you have something something to hang on to
• 50:57
  rather than just this is my art and I'm it gives you a You're providing
• 51:02
  value, and that's the key to any career. Anything you do in life
• 51:07
  is to provide value to the other person. Every relationship that you have,
• 51:10
  you're providing value. So so many screenwriters, do you know, I get
• 51:15
  pitched, I get I get pitched screenplays. They said me, this is
• 51:20
  how, and I've said it one hundred times on the show. Don't send
• 51:23
  me a screenplay. I'm not a producer. I'm not going to produce your
• 51:27
  screenplay, I know. And I will get cold emails with Corey letters with
• 51:35
  a screenplay attached, which of course gets deleted instantly. Now I'm like,
• 51:39
  why you've done no research. You just saw me talking to some producer and
• 51:46
  you think that I'm going to like read your screenplay and go, oh,
• 51:51
  you know it would be oh, you know, I'm going to reach out
• 51:52
  to this guy that I just talked to because obviously no, no, do
• 52:00
  your homework. I mean, And that's the other thing, Like, so
• 52:01
  some of the experiences don't know who do we approach and how do you know
• 52:07
  who your approach? I always tell them I am to be pro, im
• 52:09
  dB pro, I'm dB pro, I am DW pro. It's your best
• 52:13
  investment, great ROI and you, like you've been saying, find out what
• 52:17
  they're looking for, who's on their roster, what kind of projects that they're
• 52:21
  into. Are you going to pitch a romantic comedy to Bloomhouse, which I'm
• 52:25
  sure they got it. I promise you they get them. I promise you
• 52:29
  they get well. I think you just want to say your best foot forward.
• 52:37
  This is just so that you have more of a chance. And I
• 52:40
  think sometimes it's difficult because again, it's your own work. It depends some
• 52:45
  people are ego maniac and they're like, it's my work, You've got to
• 52:46
  listen to me. I tend to find that they tend not to be the
• 52:50
  best rights. It's the people that are more shot. Yeah, it's the
• 52:55
  people who are a bit more humble, a little bit more sensitive, and
• 52:59
  they find this difficult. Try and imagine it's your best friend, I don't
• 53:02
  know, call your writer's self. So I guess it's Beyonce, isn't It's
• 53:07
  Beyonce and her kind of alter ego. You know, she has her stage
• 53:10
  persona, the Queen Bee, the Queen Bee. Yeaheah, the Queen Bee.
• 53:14
  So I guess basically do that for yourself is that you have the writer
• 53:16
  who is the sensitive human has to kind of expose their innards so that we
• 53:22
  can have enjoyment from it. And then you have the business person that goes
• 53:25
  like, Okay, I'm going to take that sensitive little soul and I'm going
• 53:28
  to work out the best way to move them forward and use a different part
• 53:31
  of your brain. Call yourself somebody different. I'm sure people have actually kind
• 53:36
  of well, I think there's all those kind of old movies where they were
• 53:37
  like, hey, I'm here for the meding and then they go like,
• 53:40
  well i'm here, you know what I mean, they pretend to be the
• 53:43
  A and then ring them up. You don't have to do that, but
• 53:45
  I think psychologically it's probably worth doing that. So treat your writer's friend as
• 53:51
  your best friend and try and say if you were giving them advice, what
• 53:53
  would you do? And he would be like, brave, be brave.
• 53:55
  So you hat in the ring, enter that contest, you know, try
• 54:00
  and send a cold email, see who you might want to work with,
• 54:04
  you know, really give them advices as you would a best friend. Because
• 54:08
  I think it's so hard when it's just little you and your work. But
• 54:15
  actually people are looking for story all the time, and it's so hard to
• 54:20
  find good ones. A good script is honestly, it's not in the needle
• 54:23
  in a haystack. It's needle in the haystack in the hay field, you
• 54:27
  know what I mean, and in a I know, in somewhere where there's
• 54:30
  lots of hay I mean, it's like it's huge, so hard to find
• 54:34
  a good script and an original voice. I mean, if you have something,
• 54:38
  if you think, oh my goodness. I've read a script the other
• 54:40
  day that I really liked because it was about two young homeless kids, them
• 54:47
  and them living on the streets and then an incident happened, and then how
• 54:52
  they get off the streets. I've never really seen that, and it was
• 54:55
  and it was written from such an authentic point of you and gave the main
• 55:01
  characters had had things that were extraordinary about them, even though they were dirt
• 55:08
  poor and living on the street and the hardship, you know, and that
• 55:12
  I was like, Okay, this is this is good, this is interesting.
• 55:15
  So whatever your story is your uniqueness yet point if you if you have
• 55:19
  something original honestly, someone will want to read it and will want to make
• 55:22
  it. And I think you mentioned this a little earlier in our conversation in
• 55:27
  regards to the the pressure that you put on art. But like the uh,
• 55:34
  the all I need is this and then this will happen kind of thing
• 55:37
  like I just need to win the Nichols and and I just need to get
• 55:43
  an agent or I just need Steven Spielberg, christ No Nolan to see my
• 55:46
  work and they'll come on and shepherd me through. And you know these kind
• 55:51
  of things. Uh. And And I think screenwriters as well as filmmakers will
• 55:54
  need to break apart from that. Just get that I get out of that
• 55:58
  mindset because it's all about the process and enjoying the process and enjoying the road
• 56:02
  because this is going to be a painful. Look you've chosen a very interesting
• 56:07
  career path as a screenwriter. It is wonderful, it is beautiful. You
• 56:10
  get the privileged to tell stories. But it is not an easy path for
• 56:15
  any writing. Writing has never been easy. For when it was Charles Dickens,
• 56:20
  Shakespeare had you know, Shakespeare had a rough time, a rough go
• 56:23
  of it. You know, he wasn't considered Shakespeare when he was writing.
• 56:27
  You know, he was just another dude trying to get a play off the
• 56:29
  ground, you know. So, And and to understand that that humility that
• 56:36
  you must have, because if you are not humble, this business will humble
• 56:40
  you to your knees. I will humble you. Anytime I see one of
• 56:45
  those egomaniacs, which I've run across, oddly enough, a handful of times
• 56:50
  in my business and in my time, in my time in the business,
• 56:52
  I always say to myself, don't worry that the business will take care of
• 56:57
  them. You know, I've had literally I've literally had producers in the room
• 57:00
  like I'll see it next year's Oscars with this film, Like it's just such
• 57:04
  such delusion that I think, I think, I think when you run into
• 57:08
  people like that, and I think this is an interesting conversation to have when
• 57:12
  you run into delusional people in this business at every and every level, from
• 57:16
  the screenwriter to the producer, to the financier to the actor whoever, when
• 57:22
  you that is obviously a defense mechanism that they needed for themselves to survive this
• 57:29
  this, this this botlet that is the film industry. They don't understand you
• 57:32
  that that's not the way to do it, but it's it's a defense.
• 57:36
  How would you if you have to deal with someone like this, which I'm
• 57:39
  sure you have and I have as well, what advice would you give to
• 57:43
  deal with delusional people? And by the way, if you don't know any
• 57:45
  delusional people, you are the delusional person. Like I always I always always
• 57:53
  say like, how many people here have ever, how many people here know
• 57:57
  an angry better screenwriter? Are angry and better filmmaker? And everyone raises around
• 58:00
  like if you didn't raise your hand, you're the angry and bitter screen writer
• 58:02
  that everyone else looks at. So, oh my gosh, it's true,
• 58:08
  isn't it. I think I think you're right, though, I think I
• 58:15
  try and look at it like this, that anyone that is being either mean
• 58:19
  or delusional or horrible or that all that kind of stuff comes from something that
• 58:24
  they've got going on. It's something there. It's actually nothing to do with
• 58:29
  you. And the fact that you're at the kind of like I don't know,
• 58:34
  receiving the blunt stick of it, and you know, them behaving so
• 58:38
  badly. I think it's just a try and remove yourself from that situation and
• 58:43
  get to what they are really angry about or delusional about, or so you
• 58:47
  kind of try and undercut and keep asking questions. So you kind of go
• 58:52
  like, so is it this? Do you know what I mean? So
• 58:54
  you kind of like, so, so you've got the money, so where
• 58:57
  is the money coming from? Okay, so who's believe is it in the
• 59:00
  bank? Do you know what I mean? So you keep asking questions that
• 59:04
  kind of all appeal the kind of the delusion. I think, not in
• 59:08
  a mean way, but justin a kind of like so I don't understand,
• 59:12
  It's like it's really kind of getting to the truth of it. Because if
• 59:19
  you ask for the truth and ask enough questions, I think you can then
• 59:22
  kind of like they're either go like oh, or they will like admit something,
• 59:27
  or they'll kind of storm out, and then you know, and then
• 59:29
  it's God anyway, isn't it? But I think remaining in your own strength,
• 59:34
  so not kind of getting caught up in what they've got going on.
• 59:37
  So like, does that seem real to you? For you know, it's
• 59:40
  the same thing, isn't it? If a deal seems too good to be
• 59:43
  true, is no? So with that said, though, with that said,
• 59:47
  I'm going to tell you a story really quickly. We'll be right back
• 59:52
  after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. If
• 1:00:00
  I told you that there was a producer who said, we're gonna get a
• 1:00:07
  million dollars for this project. Where's the money coming from? Oh, there's
• 1:00:12
  this guy who married a rich woman in South Africa, let's say, and
• 1:00:20
  he gets a stipend of a million dollars a month to play with as his
• 1:00:29
  walking around money and a million dollars is no big deal. And he really
• 1:00:34
  just wants to be part of the filmmaking process. Give him a part in
• 1:00:37
  the movie, A little, a small, little cameo. He wants to
• 1:00:39
  go to the red carpet, all this kind of stuff. And the director
• 1:00:44
  is a first time director, the cinematographer has never shot a feature. And
• 1:00:50
  we will probably have a couple of real actors involved, like faces and maybe
• 1:00:53
  even an Oscar nominee. Do you believe that thing happened? Uh? I
• 1:01:02
  hope it did because it sounds amazing. But oh my god, one amazing,
• 1:01:08
  big group of things to happen all in one go. Did it happen?
• 1:01:12
  Yes? I wasn't. I wasn't the director, but and I won't
• 1:01:19
  say any more about the project because I don't want to bring the project out,
• 1:01:21
  but it is in my past. I was part of the project at
• 1:01:24
  a small capacity. That's exactly how it happened. Was it good? No?
• 1:01:30
  No, nothing In that conversation stated that it was going to be good.
• 1:01:37
  No, but I mean again, I'm hopeful. It seemed like a
• 1:01:39
  dream come true. Wanted it somehow. It then blossomed. It blossomed into
• 1:01:44
  an Oscar winning nothing nothing, nothing, No, it was a complete and
• 1:01:47
  other disaster. The only thing that held it together was the cast, and
• 1:01:52
  they were And it was also at a different time period. It was I
• 1:01:54
  thinking, I'm not gonna say the dates, but it was at a time
• 1:01:57
  period where it was easier to sell international based off talent. Nowadays is not
• 1:02:02
  as easy. But yeah, but so there's those stories and you can imagine
• 1:02:08
  me. I was just like, why is this happening? And why doesn't
• 1:02:12
  anyone give it to me? What has It's only given me the million dollars?
• 1:02:15
  Obviously I have a bunch better pack. Don't they understand my genius?
• 1:02:22
  Like I always hope it. I am the humblest guy you'll ever meet,
• 1:02:24
  Like the humblest of the humble. No, but uh, I have all
• 1:02:29
  the humble people. I'm the humblest. But uh, what best at being
• 1:02:34
  humbled? I'm the best at being humble? Number one, best of everybody
• 1:02:38
  else. It's ridiculous. Uh. But so you see things like that,
• 1:02:43
  And I worked a lot in the post production business, so I would see
• 1:02:45
  these stories come in and it would get me so angry. I wasn't angry
• 1:02:47
  and bitter filmmaker for so long ago, Oh my god, so long Uh.
• 1:02:52
  And I know in the screenwriting world as well. And you see these
• 1:02:53
  projects get done and you see these paydays and you're just like, why did
• 1:02:58
  that person get them? But you can't look at things like that. You
• 1:03:01
  just got to go that on your path. You're on your on your journey
• 1:03:06
  and just keep keep look going down. And I promise you something good will
• 1:03:10
  eventually happen. If you do that, if you enjoy the process, you're
• 1:03:14
  winning right away. Exactly, You're already winning. And I always kind of
• 1:03:19
  think you can reframe everything, so like you can kind of go like,
• 1:03:22
  oh, why did they get that money? And you go and it's so
• 1:03:24
  terrible, and you're like, well, this is inspiring me. So I
• 1:03:27
  can go like, they got that money and it's terrible, and mine's going
• 1:03:30
  to be better than that. You know. I think everything that really annoys
• 1:03:31
  you, if you can take a minute to step back from it and just
• 1:03:35
  kind of flip it, flip it. I feel like you should do this
• 1:03:38
  in life anyway, just try and flip it. Go like, oh,
• 1:03:42
  I didn't get that role. And I think this is Jennifer Aniston. She
• 1:03:45
  was up for an advert or something and she was down to the last two
• 1:03:52
  that you know, that heavy pencil thing, and she was going and she
• 1:03:55
  was really she didn't get it, and she was absolutely devastated because it was
• 1:03:58
  going to like be on five thousand dollars because they used to pay or maybe
• 1:04:01
  even fifteen thousand dollars because I used to pay quite well back then. And
• 1:04:05
  she was going away filming and everything, and she didn't get it, and
• 1:04:10
  then she called in for the Friends interview and it would have been while she
• 1:04:14
  was away filming, and she got that role instead, And you have to
• 1:04:16
  think about how different her life has been from not getting that interview. I
• 1:04:21
  do believe that there is a plan for us on a now. Now we're
• 1:04:27
  going into spiritual world and the destiny and all that kind of stuff. I
• 1:04:30
  think we do control our own destiny. I think we do definitely have to
• 1:04:32
  put the work in. But there's just forces, man, There's just things
• 1:04:36
  that just you can't see. Things like you know, the Friends Gang,
• 1:04:41
  how they all got together, like it just so happenstance. It was so
• 1:04:45
  perfectly put together. And they're making hundreds of millions of dollars twenty years later
• 1:04:50
  still and they're still making money off that show. All those kind of things.
• 1:04:56
  There is destiny, There's just no question. I was listening to had
• 1:05:00
  the producer of Pretty Woman on the other day and he was talking to us
• 1:05:03
  about Julia Roberts and he wanted Julia Roberts to be on the show on the
• 1:05:09
  movie, and Gary Marshall wanted Julia Robins, but Richard Keere had to sign
• 1:05:12
  off, So Julia Roberts, Julia, this is Julia Roberts basically, I
• 1:05:15
  think after Misstic Pizza. So she was now Julia Roberts. She was I
• 1:05:19
  think twenty whatever. I think she's like twenty twenty one. She was a
• 1:05:25
  baby. She goes to his apartment, Gary's with her. Gary leaves the
• 1:05:30
  room. This is the way the story goes. Gary leaves the room.
• 1:05:33
  He's like, I gotta go to bathroom, so hey, you can get
• 1:05:35
  to get to know her. And then like fifteen minutes later, he still
• 1:05:40
  hasn't come back. He calls up Richard on the phone. It goes,
• 1:05:44
  Richard, what do you think? While she's in the room, And while
• 1:05:46
  he's on the phone, Julia Roberts writes on the post it, writes a
• 1:05:50
  little note on the post it, and then shows it to her and it
• 1:05:54
  says, please say yes. And and Richard of course fell in love with
• 1:06:01
  her at that moment, and the rest, as they say, is history.
• 1:06:04
  But that was just a you know, just a that's fate, like
• 1:06:08
  you can't and how and how Julia Roberts was even considered for that role.
• 1:06:13
  So many stars had to align to get there. There is that, There
• 1:06:18
  is that yeah, but I think it's just the friends thing. Sorry to
• 1:06:23
  interrupt you, I would say, with friends, is that all that money
• 1:06:28
  didn't make them happy? Not everyone. Absolutely, You're absolutely right. So
• 1:06:33
  actually having a happy life is more valuable than being an Oscar winner or the
• 1:06:39
  best screenwriter, all the most famous actress, all the most you know,
• 1:06:44
  being happy with yourself and with your who you are as a human. Be
• 1:06:48
  careful what you wish for because it might just come true. And people listening
• 1:06:56
  like, oh, I want to be a famous this, or I want
• 1:06:57
  to you know, direct that, or I want to write this, they
• 1:07:00
  don't understand what that entails and what trade offs you have to do. If
• 1:07:02
  you want to be the biggest movie star in the world. There is some
• 1:07:06
  trade offs you want you want to write on a studio project, there is
• 1:07:12
  some trade offs you want to direct a Marvel movie. There is some trade
• 1:07:17
  offs things that you don't understand because you've never sat in that chair. Uh.
• 1:07:21
  And I've been blessed by being able to talk to a lot of these
• 1:07:25
  writers and directors who do sit in these chairs, so I hear all the
• 1:07:29
  stories. So when Kevin Fay does call me for Avengers Part five, I'm
• 1:07:32
  ready. I'm ready. So Kevin, if you're listening, I'll take I'll
• 1:07:41
  take the meeting. I'll always take the meeting. Now I'm gonna ask you
• 1:07:45
  a few questions to ask my guest for listening. What are three screen What
• 1:07:49
  are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read? I'm called, uh, get
• 1:07:59
  a ou what's that? Oh god, it's the one that's just it's Emily
• 1:08:05
  Blonde and John Chris Chris quite Pless, Quiet Place, Yes, Quiet Basic
• 1:08:12
  should read that because I think what I love about that is that so imaginative
• 1:08:15
  about how they how they put it on the page, you know, I
• 1:08:19
  mean they kind of did something different. And one of Jim Heart's ones.
• 1:08:29
  I would either go at Dracula or book one of those two, probably Jim
• 1:08:34
  a friend of the show, Jim and uh and yeah, the the Hook
• 1:08:39
  God, all the stories of Hook and and Dracula. Oh god, they're
• 1:08:43
  they're amazing. Yes, all all great choices. Also, I wanted to
• 1:08:47
  kind of highlight what you guys do over at the ICA, So let's you
• 1:08:50
  know what you're helping screenwriters as well as we are, and what are you
• 1:08:54
  doing. What are the resources you guys have for screenwriters? Can you talk
• 1:08:58
  a little bit about that. Yeah, thank you. I'm the VP of
• 1:09:03
  Development for the International Screenwriters Association. It was started by someone who was an
• 1:09:10
  actor turned screenwriter who moved from Chicago to a lane was like, my goodness,
• 1:09:14
  everyone wants to take my money and no one is doing what they said
• 1:09:16
  they were going to do. So he just started an online resource for screenwriters
• 1:09:23
  so that you could check stuff out. It's a place of community for screenwriters.
• 1:09:29
  It's a place where you can put your profile up, you can put
• 1:09:32
  your screenplace, you can put posters, sizzles, so you can make it
• 1:09:35
  a place with other screenwriters where you can completely put your brand in one area.
• 1:09:43
  We have producers that are signed up to the site and they definitely go
• 1:09:45
  through and look at talent and look at screenwriters. You can promote your success
• 1:09:50
  on it. And then it's also full of the other half of the business.
• 1:09:55
  We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
• 1:10:01
  the show. So that's you and your craft and your career. There's a
• 1:10:08
  lot of teaching elements of it too, but there's also the business side.
• 1:10:11
  So we have it's called ISA Insider, where really make a variety of all
• 1:10:16
  the news comes through, so you can have a look at that. There's
• 1:10:19
  pro tips and tricks about what's going on in the industry. Red carpet interviews,
• 1:10:26
  interviews like such as yourself, but actually go and speak to directors and
• 1:10:29
  producers and see what they're doing and how their founder were in the world.
• 1:10:32
  So it's always it's a hub really for you to find people like you and
• 1:10:38
  information you might need. I also rather developments late at one hundred and seventy
• 1:10:42
  two writers, which is a top tier writer pool of scripts I've found through
• 1:10:47
  contests and referrals and success stories, just brilliant success stories. I love following
• 1:10:54
  people who are doing well and telling people about it. That's the other thing.
• 1:10:58
  If you are doing well, not to be obnoxious that let people know,
• 1:11:01
  let people know that said no to you in the past, let people
• 1:11:04
  know that helped you on the way, say bank you those those that we
• 1:11:09
  all like to feel that we've you know. It reminds me that we're all
• 1:11:12
  connected and in some way, even a pizza takes hundreds of people to make
• 1:11:18
  it, you know, want to grow the corn and mill the corn,
• 1:11:24
  you know, Yeah, I mean we're all so interconnected. I think COVID
• 1:11:30
  showed us that all than Emma is that we actually all need each other.
• 1:11:32
  So to be in a place where you kind of go like, okay,
• 1:11:34
  we're all here, gang, and when it is when times are difficult and
• 1:11:39
  when you have those moments where you're dealing with delusional people or things are down
• 1:11:45
  there, to have these other people that will lift you up and so like,
• 1:11:46
  I really believe in you and you know, keep going. Now,
• 1:11:49
  in England, do they have pizza made of corn? Because I wasn't aware
• 1:11:56
  that corn was an ingredient in pizza. So I was just I just wanted
• 1:12:00
  to clarify because I haven't been to England. I'm not sure if that's the
• 1:12:02
  thing. I just want to be prepared if there is corn pizza. Uh,
• 1:12:06
  not to look like an outsider. Yeah, I'm sorry, I could
• 1:12:15
  have let it go. I'm not wheat. Oh god, damn it.
• 1:12:20
  Yeah, you're right, as you were talking. As you were talking like,
• 1:12:25
  did she just say corn? I can't let that go. I'm thinking
• 1:12:31
  about the tortilla pizzas that everyone that's very la. It's very la. It's
• 1:12:38
  very la with the tortilla pizzas. So what advice would you give a screenwriter
• 1:12:45
  trying to break into the business today. Find your people, I think,
• 1:12:53
  go on Facebook, join all the spreme rising groups, go on Twitter,
• 1:12:58
  girl, Instagram, to all the social media stuff and find all the people
• 1:13:02
  are out there doing it. A hashtag screenwriter is massive on Twitter. You
• 1:13:06
  need to be following that and from there you will find lots of screenwriters and
• 1:13:12
  showrunners and producers because they're all looking on there too. It became again and
• 1:13:15
  amazing when the industry changed. It became a place for people to find each
• 1:13:21
  other. So and I also think it's a place where you can celebrate.
• 1:13:25
  So if someone has got a new project out and you've seen that in the
• 1:13:28
  trades because you're now reading the trades as part of your job, you can
• 1:13:31
  then congratulate them on Twitter or Facebook or wherever. And they do notice if
• 1:13:36
  you keep saying and if you say something smart or if you're funny. The
• 1:13:39
  other thing to do in those Facebook groups is to help others, so that
• 1:13:42
  if someone says I need a script reading or I need a lobline looking at
• 1:13:45
  do one of those people that offers advice that does help out. Not your
• 1:13:48
  own detriment to avoid writing, but do it enough so that you're a person
• 1:13:55
  that's part of the community that's actually trying to make this stuff happen. Then
• 1:13:59
  I think just have to kind of enter contests and fellowships and look for grants
• 1:14:03
  and see if there's like a little area in your hometown. If you're not
• 1:14:09
  in LA that has projects that they're working on, volunteer on. Find people
• 1:14:15
  at writing shorts or producing shorts, film schools. Volunteer, go to be
• 1:14:18
  on set. You can learn a lot from being on set. I think,
• 1:14:23
  one about how actors and directors work with each other with lines, but
• 1:14:27
  also just how the whole process is so that you can be a better screenwriter.
• 1:14:30
  I think really immersing yourself in the job. Then read read all the
• 1:14:35
  time, read other people's scripts, read scripts whilst watching the movie, see
• 1:14:41
  how much they changed it. If your TV is your thing, kind of
• 1:14:45
  get into TV T scripts, TV scripts, and then's a start putting pitches
• 1:14:48
  together, start practic looking at pitch decks, thinking about so you actually act
• 1:14:53
  as a producer for yourself. If you were going to create this, because
• 1:14:56
  it's probably in your mind, so then how can you put it on the
• 1:14:59
  page. What's the tone? Who would you have in it? As your
• 1:15:01
  dreamcast? Why now? Why you? Why you? This writer? Put
• 1:15:05
  that all in the pitch deck. Even if you never send it anywhere,
• 1:15:10
  which you should. Even if you don't, it means you could talk about
• 1:15:12
  it more eloquently if someone asks you about it. Practice your pitches foot ten
• 1:15:16
  minutes once you're two minute one, you one minute one, as Alex was
• 1:15:20
  saying about that, and keep learning, don't give up, be persevere,
• 1:15:26
  believe and know that you have your your own journey in this process. Don't
• 1:15:31
  compare yourself to anyone else. It's miserable and pointless. Yes, and bitter.
• 1:15:38
  The bitter screenwriter or the bitter filmmaker. Well, it just makes you
• 1:15:41
  feel horrible. What's the point in doing that? You know it doesn't touch
• 1:15:45
  them at all, and you're just going around and it should have been me,
• 1:15:47
  And it's like, why it doesn't make no sense? And do something
• 1:15:54
  better, or just do something that's you that they can't do. That's that,
• 1:16:00
  Do that thing that you can do and only you can do. Now,
• 1:16:02
  what is the lessoner took the longest to learn, whether in the film
• 1:16:04
  business or in life self belief? I think that is the hardest one.
• 1:16:17
  And unfortunately, nothing in any aspects of your life works without it. You
• 1:16:24
  have to believe in yourself. You have to think that you're worthy. So
• 1:16:28
  self worth, I think, and it's an ongoing process. I'd like to
• 1:16:30
  say I'm there, but I'm there on some days. You know, I
• 1:16:32
  was nervous about doing this. I'll beat myself up afterwards about times I stumbled
• 1:16:39
  over words, you know what I mean. So it's a continuing We're all
• 1:16:42
  a work in progress. So I guess remember that and let yourself off the
• 1:16:45
  hook about it. You know, I haven't killed anybody yet, you know,
• 1:16:48
  so I'm not a murderer. So it's there are worse things exactly,
• 1:16:54
  And I've already forgot about the corn pizza. Now, Oh my god,
• 1:17:01
  my name is facility. Were when I eat corn pizza? I'm telling you
• 1:17:06
  that is a teenage sleuth book series? Right now, you and I should
• 1:17:12
  we should go out break and last question, three of your favorite films of
• 1:17:15
  all time? Okay, Eternal Sunshine at the Spotless Mind, Charlie. So
• 1:17:25
  the only thing is I have to have ten minutes afterwards to cry. I
• 1:17:28
  literally have to cry for ten minutes afterwards because I'm so sad about my life
• 1:17:31
  choices and so happy about them at the same time. It's one of those
• 1:17:34
  things that you know, if you had to do it all again, would
• 1:17:36
  you yeah, yeah, does it hurt like hell yeah? So it's just
• 1:17:42
  I love I love the imagination of it, the magic of it. I
• 1:17:45
  mean I was Piana, then go can I do four? Sure? Because
• 1:17:53
  then I would. Then that leads me to the Truman Show. I'm a
• 1:17:56
  very kind of I'm very think a very big fan of Jim Carey. I
• 1:17:59
  think he is underrated as an that he is the modern day Dick van Dyke.
• 1:18:04
  Again, massive fan of his. I think he is so versatile and
• 1:18:10
  so talented, and people are he was in this stereotype box for a while,
• 1:18:17
  but you know, he he is incredible. I think he's an amazing,
• 1:18:23
  amazing So so there's my two are going to link there together even though
• 1:18:27
  they're not the same. And then the hours I just loved because I really
• 1:18:30
  enjoyed Stephen Daldry's directing. I just think the script itself is so beautiful.
• 1:18:38
  I hadn't seen so, I hadn't seen many pictures with three very dynamic and
• 1:18:43
  different female leads who kind of that ensemble was such an ensemble piece, and
• 1:18:48
  it was I will never forget the image of Julian Moore on the bed reading
• 1:18:54
  the book and the water just coming at her, feeling like she's drowning by
• 1:18:57
  being a housewife, and as someone who does want to be a housewife,
• 1:19:00
  I really really kind of really spoke to me. So the hours and the
• 1:19:05
  storytelling is beautiful and the acting is incredible. And then I think a bit
• 1:19:11
  more recent is a Rival, because I just, oh my god, it's
• 1:19:17
  such a smart script, and it just when you understand what it's been doing
• 1:19:27
  with you at the end, how it's been messling with your mind. I
• 1:19:32
  was just blown away by the ingenuity of it and the stylishness, exotic sophistication
• 1:19:40
  of it. And I also hate it when alien aliens are portrayed as the
• 1:19:45
  enemy, because I feel like it's another form of racism. It's all like
• 1:19:50
  you is an alienism. Yeah, it's an alienism. Racism. It's this
• 1:19:55
  whole thing about keeping us divided. You know, anyone that's not you is
• 1:19:58
  should be feared. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:20:05
  and now back to the show, you know. And I feel like I
• 1:20:12
  love that about Arrival is that it turned that on its head and it gave
• 1:20:15
  us and at the same time humans were going to help them too, so
• 1:20:18
  it wasn't a case of we've come to rescue you. It was a partnership.
• 1:20:21
  So I really enjoyed that about And where can people find out more about
• 1:20:26
  what you find about you and what you do over at ica A S excuse
• 1:20:30
  me, well, you can find us at www dot network SA dot org.
• 1:20:40
  We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back
• 1:20:46
  to the show. And I am on the website there you can I mean
• 1:20:54
  basically you can just go. It's a really kind of big website. You
• 1:20:56
  can go and have a bit of a poke around, have a look.
• 1:20:58
  There's so much freestyle on it. There is a ten dollars a month or
• 1:21:01
  ninety nine dollars a year membership that puts you on a slightly it's called the
• 1:21:06
  ISA Connection. It's a slightly more elevated membership. The rest of it is
• 1:21:11
  free, and that basically just means that you get four free contest entries a
• 1:21:15
  year, which is actually worth more than the fee you pay to be on
• 1:21:18
  it. And you have a few more things that adjust for you, extra
• 1:21:23
  classes and stuff like that. But you can have a look. It's all
• 1:21:25
  free. You have a wonder round time there. Very cool. It's been
• 1:21:29
  an absolutely pleasure talking to you. We had a lot of fun, and
• 1:21:32
  I hope this episode helps a few screenwriters out there, and hopefully they're not
• 1:21:38
  crying curled up in a corner somewhere in the fetal position after this conversation.
• 1:21:42
  I hope they are empowered to move forward with their dreams and their careers.
• 1:21:45
  So thank you so much for that. It was such a pleasure to meet
• 1:21:48
  you, and I agree it started off a bit negatively, but we're just
• 1:21:51
  kind of like laying the foundation before we said this is what you can do
• 1:21:55
  instead to make it all okay. Absolutely, I want to thank Felicity so
• 1:22:00
  much for coming on the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on the Tribe today.
• 1:22:04
  If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:22:08
  including how to get a hold of Felicity at ISA, head over to
• 1:22:12
  the show notes at anifilm muscle dot com Forward slash seven thirty two, and
• 1:22:15
  if you have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
• 1:22:19
  subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out
• 1:22:25
  a lot guys. Thank you again so much for listening. Guys, as
• 1:22:27
  always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out
• 1:22:30
  there, and I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie
• 1:22:33
  Film Hustle podcast at Indie Film hustle dot com. That's I N D I
• 1:22:38
  E F I L M h U S T l E dot com