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How to Find Meaningful Work Without Quitting Your Job · Happen To Your Career - Meaningful Work, Career Change, Career Design, & Job Search

• 0:00
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Alanna took six weeks away from work to ask herself an important question.
• 0:04
  Alanna Ojibway: I had just come back from our honeymoon, this great six weeks in New Zealand, and one of the things I had been struggling with before that was really feeling conflicted and, like, am I depressed?
• 0:20
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Six weeks without work and she felt like herself again, and that told her something. It just didn't tell her what she thought it
• 0:26
  Alanna Ojibway: It was like, "Oh, good. I'm not depressed anymore. I just need to change everything else in my life. And then it'll all be good."
• 0:31
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Turns out she was wrong about that, and finding out why sent her on a journey that took two years, a baby, three volunteer boards, and running for legislative office.
• 0:40
  Introduction: This is Happen To Your Career. Most people let their career happen to them, falling into jobs by accident, staying longer than they should, and wondering if this is really all there is. But a few people decide to stop settling and do something different. This podcast is for you to take control, get intentional, and design your career to fit the life that you want to build. Real stories and real research so you can stop waiting and start making it happen. I'm Scott Anthony Barlow.
• 1:08
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Alanna Ojibway found this podcast by typing in career change stories into Spotify, and then she started listening to this podcast. She was in the same place that you might be right now. She was in a good job that no longer was a fit in the same way.
• 1:23
  And now, for Alanna, she was an assistant director of education and outreach in the National Center on Restorative Justice. This was work she believed in. It is a great organization, and almost all of it took place on a screen, which turned out to matter much more than she expected. Then she had her six-week honeymoon, where she came home with a question that she hadn't gone looking for, whether the thing that she'd been calling depression had more to do with the role than with her.
• 1:53
  What the trip gave her wasn't an answer at all. In fact, it was very much the opposite. It was the ability to recognize work that no longer fits and the need to make a change and do something about it. But it's what came after this that is most important, one of the reason why I think her story is so interesting, she was certain the answer was, "Yes, I need to leave." Turns out it was not.
• 2:17
  But in between, she had a baby, joined multiple boards, tried consulting, had many other different experiments, and then put the entire career change on hold for a stretch. You'll hear why, but this turned out to be one of the most useful things that she did.
• 2:33
  If you've been assuming that you need a big exit to solve your work problems, you might be pleasantly surprised. Alanna learned that the answer is far more nuanced. Here she is talking about how time away from work helped her rediscover lost parts of herself.
• 2:49
  Alanna Ojibway: Parts of me that felt like they came online again. It's like, oh, I get really good energy when I, like, have more flexibility in my day and can spend time just slowly waking up and exploring and taking time to have conversations with random people in places where we're meeting and, like, hearing their stories and there was just, like, aspects of what we were also doing in that place during that time that just felt, oh, this is the stuff that really makes me feel alive and feel like, yeah. These things that felt, like, gone from me, it felt like it came online again.
• 3:24
  Scott Anthony Barlow: So it was that dichotomy of being able to rediscover some of the parts of yourself, having the space to recognize that there were these other feelings going on too when you were not removed. So I guess one of the things that makes me curious about is when you were there, were you actively recognizing that or was it after you left New Zealand and got back to it and had that comparison where those realizations came to light? How did that happen in reality?
• 3:55
  Alanna Ojibway: I think I could feel it happening then just because there was things that it was like, wow, I haven't... I mean, things maybe seems insignificant, but to me it was like I hadn't remembered dreams in years. As one example of something that it was like, this is a really interesting, like...
• 4:11
  For me, I feel like when my heart and mind are in sync, there's just things about, dreaming is one of them, that it's like it both exists at night, but then also I feel like that translates into just dreaming in the sense that when I'm awake, I was thinking about, like, future plans and things that I wanted and, like, you know, envisioning having a family and these things that it was like, oh, I haven't really had a ton of vision in, like, what I wanted.
• 4:39
  I haven't been, like, future planning and just, like, the daydreaming or the night dreaming, any of that, didn't feel like it had been happening and I don't think I even realized that until it started happening again and it was like, oh, this is actually really interesting. I didn't realize that had been gone.
• 4:54
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I think that's the really tricky thing about when you're in a situation and that situation is not fully lining up with what you want, what you need. The way that it happens for so many of us in reality is it is slow and things start to disappear, pieces of ourselves. I've also experienced that exact same thing where my dreams went away and then gotten into a creative space, removed, and they came back almost instantly within a few days.
• 5:21
  And also just the comparison between those, it's just so drastic, but so hard to discover too when you're in the middle of it. I think that the frog in the pot of boiling water, that everybody's heard that version where it heats slowly over time. I don't know if that's actually how a frog will react or not. But the story's so pervasive. What then happened next for you?
• 5:44
  Alanna Ojibway: It was then entered this phase of just tuning into that more and being more, I think, receptive to just thinking about it. And so what thinking about it looked like was just listening to different stories. That was how I found this podcast, was literally just searching in Spotify career change stories, and I found this podcast and then became just obsessed with listening to other people's stories.
• 6:11
  And I remember especially hearing kind of earlier on the shorter segments about the seven elements of meaningful work, and it was like just such a light bulb went off about things that felt... It gave like words and sort of things to think about in terms of areas that was like, oh, that's not there, or this feels off.
• 6:31
  And then I think I just started, like, exploring that more with friends, with old mentors. I was in a leadership-- I had just started this leadership program with a group of other young BIPOC leaders around the country, and which was great that all of these things were happening simultaneously. I had also just started going back more regularly for therapy.
• 6:53
  So I think it was like all of these sort of really reflective juices flowing of just thinking more about where those feelings of what wasn't satisfying, what wasn't right, what felt off. And then I think the more daunting feeling was, and obviously a lot of guests talk about this, that the things that are clear of what you don't like or what don't feel good comes pretty quickly, and then it feels like you get to this sort of mental cliff of, whoa, what do I want?
• 7:20
  And that feeling like, for me, it just felt this identity crisis of I feel like I should have an answer to that by now, and I don't know. I don't know what the next thing is, and the idea of if I just make a huge switch, what is that can of worms like? Where do you even start looking, and what am I good at?
• 7:37
  And just this whole sort of ripple effect of opening up these thoughts of the unknown of what I do want was really scary. And so I think that's sort of where the seed was then planted to think about how helpful it would be to have a coach to support that unknown.
• 7:52
  Scott Anthony Barlow: It can be overwhelming or even paralyzing because there's so many questions there. The possibilities are only limited to creativity to some degree. So that in itself can be its own separate challenge.
• 8:05
  Describe to me a little bit about what you were doing at that point in time, 'cause this is a year or two back here. You're doing education, you're doing outreach for an organization focused restorative justice. And tell me a little bit about what your day-to-day, week-to-week looked like at that point.
• 8:23
  Alanna Ojibway: One of the things that I love about that role and this work was it was a lot of different types of meeting and a lot of different relationships. So it was sometimes meetings with our nuclear team, and then a lot of times for me, it would be meeting with folks who are working in higher ed around curriculum and/or events and things around how they're teaching restorative justice in schools, or how to incorporate it differently, or working with folks in the justice system about how do we make movement in a space where there's a lot of pushback, a lot of questions, and how do you work with a lot of different stakeholders to just get consensus and buy-in.
• 9:02
  So some of it was meetings like that. Sometimes it was hosting virtual events. But 90% of the time also that day-to-day was virtual. Maybe 95% of the time, 'cause really the only times we'd be in person was once in a while. This was also, like, post-COVID, so there was also still a lot of travel restrictions for our funding and what we could do.
• 9:22
  I think for a while, that sort of creative charge of how do you do very community-based work remotely in a way that makes people feel still connected and empowered, for a while, that felt like this really, like, creative charge for me of, like, I'm gonna find a way to do it. I'm gonna find a way to make sure people still feel like that same sense of connection, and it's creating change.
• 9:44
  That was happening, but I also knew like I just am not someone who thrives in a fully remote environment. And so that day-to-day of just like being on a screen, and for the most part, a lot of the things we were doing, I wasn't directly connected to the impact of, so say it was working with teachers, it was like we'd work on this project, develop this curriculum, and then I would hope it lands.
• 10:14
  But I had also been in work where you do get to see the impact of like those moments of learning or bringing people together. And so there also was this part of me that always felt this like just disconnect of I really like being more closely connected to seeing the impact of this. And it was, it is much more of a sort of like intermediary role where you're like supporting the people who are then doing the things.
• 10:36
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I remember about our conversation. I don't get to talk with every single one of our clients anymore, but you and I got to have a conversation right around this point in time as you were discovering, "I need to make some changes here so that I am much more in line with the work I'm doing day to day."
• 10:54
  Also, part of that conversation was really about this lack of impact, and you could logically see that you're making a ton of impact. I remember that. And also you were missing this sort of direct emotional connection because of where you were getting to come into the process and where you were leaving the process, so you didn't get to experience that, I'll call it longer term relationship.
• 11:19
  To me at the time, it almost sounded like you would do a bunch of the work and then turn it over and then never really get to hear about it in the same way again. And that was missing a portion. How would you describe that now? What do you think it is that you were missing at that point in time? Feel that emotional connection. You alluded to it a moment ago, but how would you put that into words?
• 11:41
  Alanna Ojibway: I wasn't the one seeing those moments of impact, whether it was a student or someone involved in the justice system, I was removed from... You sort of have, like, these visions and these hopes, and then it just felt, like, it would go behind the curtain, and it was just relying on the hope and trust that this is making a difference, but not having that direct access to seeing what all this work was going into. What's it for?
• 12:08
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What you have gone through and what you're talking about right now, identifying the ways that you directly and emotionally connect with your work makes a difference.
• 12:21
  It can literally be the same work, same impact overall that's happening in reality, but where you get to experience it can be completely different in terms of whether it feels like you're making an impact. So my question to you is, what advice would you have for people who are finding themselves in that similar situation where they know that they're doing good work, logically, but it still doesn't feel right, still doesn't feel like they're making an impact in the way that they want to?
• 12:46
  Alanna Ojibway: I remember there was this visual that really stood out to me as one of the examples of... It was basically about, like, thinking about role and proximity to impact. 'Cause, like, what you were just saying, that same result can end up happening, and different people have different sense of, like, what that proximity for you needs to be for it to feel meaningful.
• 13:07
  Because some people like being able to be that sort of, like, connector and that serving its own role, and it is a really important role. I think for me, it didn't feel I needed that proximity to the real stories and people who were most directly impacted by issues or inequity. I needed to feel like that was more of a reality of, like, I needed to see that and feel that.
• 13:29
  As someone who's deeply empathetic, there is not a ton of empathy that you can feel. It doesn't feel as visceral when it's abstract, when it's a piece of curriculum, or it's a training that's delivered. It's more abstract than the very real, raw sort of empathy and excitement that you get from seeing that connection between work, result, intention, and the impact that it actually, like how that lands for people or the change that it creates.
• 13:56
  So I think part of the process for me was learning that meaningful work for me felt like having a closer relationship to those who are directly experiencing the impact. And so I think my recommendation for someone who is in a similar kind of position where they are doing work they really care about, but maybe not in a role that the proximity feels off, I think for me, that was when I started volunteering with a local nonprofit and just finding other avenues to help bridge that proximity, and it wasn't in my official role, but it was similar work, and so I felt like I was getting a more sort of real world sense of folks who were closer to the problems and closer to the impacts, and that helped give me like more of a fire to see that this is real change that it's creating, and I just needed to be able to have more regular exposure to that.
• 14:52
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I think a couple things stand out to me. One, you're highly empathetic, and also, you pointed out that you really love experiencing the stories. So I think that what I've observed over the years in some ways is that at least it has to do with strengths. How we do anything is how we do everything.
• 15:12
  Whether we are trying to find a solution, whether we are trying to do our daily work, how we tend to be successful in one area is also how we tend to be successful in another area. So I think this explains a couple things for me. 'Cause if I remember correctly, you started really deep diving into lots of the stories on this podcast.
• 15:32
  How do you think about that now in knowing more of it? 'Cause I think that's a normal reaction too, if I can just find somebody similar enough to me. Now that you have done a lot of this work identifying what is a better fit, what would you encourage somebody else to look for as they're listening to stories like yours or many of the different stories that we share on this podcast or other places?
• 15:56
  Alanna Ojibway: I think there's pieces of other people's story that can help guide the process maybe, or particular things that were helpful. But ultimately, it's so specific to your own story, the things that light you up, and, like, the discovery from that and the things that click can't be replicated from someone else's experience.
• 16:17
  It's part of, like, you have to go through that process of sort of those puzzle pieces, 'cause it's so many different pieces. It's not just hearing someone else's story and, "Oh, that's the job. That sounds really interesting, and that could be a good fit for me," because part of those puzzle pieces is, like, the context of you and your life and your goals.
• 16:39
  And for me, for example, it was like hadn't factored in at that point when I was listening to all these episodes about how much I'd be transformed by becoming a mom and all of those influences of, like, my own life and how much that has this constant relationship to professionally what you're doing in different seasons.
• 16:40
  And for me, for example, it was like hadn't factored in at that point when I was listening to all these episodes about how much I'd be transformed by becoming a mom and all of those influences of, like, my own life and how much that has this constant relationship to professionally what you're doing in different seasons.
• 16:57
  So I just think there are definitely aspects in terms of, like, what was a helpful process or hearing examples from other people's stories that can feel... Maybe, like, it'll name a feeling that you're experiencing or give sort of clarity to, like, something that feels, it was a lot of aha moments that felt relatable for me that were helpful in guiding, but that, like, the destination piece is for you and you only.
• 17:22
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah. It's not necessarily going to be a case of, if I just find the person who, I don't know, like in my case, worked in operations, made a transition to HR, eventually moved back to hometown in Moses Lake, Washington. If I just find that one person and figure out what they did then, then everything will be okay.
• 17:40
  Obviously being facetious here. But even if I do find that one person, what I hear you saying is, whatever they did is still not going to be probably right for me.
• 17:48
  Alanna Ojibway: Yeah. And I feel like the things that actually were really helpful is I just felt like I was, like, moving through it and was like, just keep adding to my basket of, I like, that's interesting.
• 17:58
  And it'd be things like, not even just through the podcast, but sometimes conversations with people who had also made big career changes, and pieces of their story that were like, what was that gut moment when you knew when did you start deciding? What were you listening to that, like, influenced the timing for you to know you needed to make that change?
• 18:18
  How did you let go of the sort of grieving of a part of your life or identity? And, like, those pieces, I feel like that is really helpful to have some sort of, like, reassurance that other people have gone through this, can feel similarly, and have had a really transformative experience. So I, yeah, I do think there's a ton of value in just hearing, but, like, what of those pieces are gonna land for different people, it's so different.
• 18:42
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I love the idea of the basket, too. I think that's a much better way to explain it. Like, how do I pull out different pieces and add them to my basket? It's a much more healthy approach when we're thinking about building a new identity, which is a lot of times what we're doing here when we're saying, "Hey, my current situation, my current career, my current job, my current whatever is no longer fitting," or, "I've outgrown it," or, "It's not structured in the way that I need to," or, "I need a different relationship with it," whatever it is.
• 19:10
  Much healthier approach, which I love, I've never really thought about it quite in that way before, is, okay, I've got this basket. How do I pull all these pieces from all these different places that are gonna be useful for me, as opposed to trying to find what someone else did specifically that's just like me, that was, I don't know, the same profession or anything else. Love that. Going to borrow that.
• 19:33
  Alanna Ojibway: And I do feel like that was part of one of the things that also in the coaching work, it was like that affirmation of the basket piece of it was affirmed in the ways that it was like, okay, now I'm gonna take an inventory of like what was, like, drawing me to those things that I chose to put in the basket? Like, why was that the thing that stood out to me? And then look at your inventory of, like, what story that tells you.
• 19:56
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I want you to think back then, since you were listening to quite a few episodes and you were trying to find stories everywhere. Think back to the moment that you decided to send me and the team an email and ask for help in this area. What were you feeling right then, and what were you hoping to find?
• 20:15
  Alanna Ojibway: I actually so distinctly remember this. It was a rainy day. I was on my way to drive to my therapy appointment, which was an hour away, so it was an hour drive in the rain. I was listening to one of the episodes. I got there, and I was just sitting in my car and feeling like, "I'm so ready to see the damn sun again," in every way.
• 20:34
  It was like metaphorically, literally, and I was just like, okay, I'm going into this therapy session, but there's also more happening than this. And I remember, like, when I was sitting there and about to go in, you always close the episodes with, "Just send me an email." And I was like, I got five minutes before I'm going in.
• 20:50
  I'm just gonna do it, because I felt like it had been my emotional sidekick for weeks at that point, and just feeling like I was getting such a source of comfort and just thinking as I was listening to these different episodes, and I just felt like I became a little low-key addicted to listening to different episodes 'cause it just felt so nice to hear the different ways people would describe their stories.
• 21:12
  And so, yeah, I just remember thinking that was the day that I was like, "I'm kinda tired of just listening to other people's stories. It's possible that this could be me. It's possible that maybe a change would be really good for me." And yeah, I so distinctly remember before that therapy appointment, I was like, "I'm just gonna send this email and see what happens."
• 21:31
  Scott Anthony Barlow: And the rest is history in many different ways. We got to start working with you. You started doing this phenomenal work for yourself. And at some point along the way, there was a twist, and that was you got pregnant. And at this point in time, the whole focus of the work that we were doing together shifted. Is that a fair assessment? What happened at that point? Take me through that.
• 21:56
  Alanna Ojibway: That was... And it was so interesting. I was looking at some of the coaching notes before this call and looking back at the original. And one of the things about future plans was about what I was thinking and hoping for in terms of a career, and it was also like, "And I hope in one to three years, I'd also really like to become a mom."
• 22:14
  And it's just interesting now in hindsight thinking about, like, for someone who's never become a parent, I feel like even just reading it, it was like, yeah, I can see where they feel like, you know, this check mark, this check mark, this check mark, and then after a certain point, and when you become a parent, it is this is fully consuming of everything about my being.
• 22:34
  And so there's no like, "Oh, and I'm a mom." It's like that will now forever be the forefront of this change that influences everything else. And yeah, so I got pregnant, and actually it was really a beautiful process to be going through the coaching still at that time because the coach I had started with and was working with for the bulk of the time, we were actually due within, like, weeks of each other.
• 22:57
  And so there was just a very real sense of, like, this experience we were both going through where it was like intending to have these, like, plans and this work still feels really worthwhile. And at the same time, I was, like, giving some space to say that, like, I could be totally transformed after this and feel like maybe I don't wanna be working for the first year after.
• 23:20
  I don't know. And so I just at that point put a pause on... Not a pause on, like, I still really felt, loved the work around, like, understanding strengths and, like, the ICP and feeling like this still is going to be really important to me, but it was a pause on how soon that sense of urgency to make a pivot was and putting it on the back burner because it was like the things, the issues, things that might feel really important may change.
• 23:49
  And they certainly did. It was, like, still a huge part of what I feel a whole new sense of perspective and importance around maternal health and mental health in particular, early childhood development, all of those things. I think if you had asked me two years ago, it's like, I absolutely think that's important and support that.
• 24:09
  And now it's a completely different experience about how integral that is to a family and a community and an entire ecosystem that is influenced by the health of mothers and children.
• 24:19
  So yeah, it was a big change in everything because it was just, I felt like I was getting on a ship. I had the bags packed of the things that were important to me, but also I was like signing up for this trip that I had no idea where I was going, and I was okay with that.
• 24:33
  I was like, "Okay, this baby is the captain," and like where I end up on the other side of this in terms of what I want and where we land, that didn't feel as important as I got my suitcase and the things I feel like my essential things to me that are most important, and that'll be there wherever we end up. But yeah, it was a lot of faith that went into sort of just I'm gonna see who I am on the other side of this.
• 24:54
  Scott Anthony Barlow: That's fascinating. I love that for many different reasons. I also think that we get to meet so many people because they're experiencing a problem or disconnect in their career, and then when we get to start to work with them, and this happens differently how it happens for so many different people.
• 25:11
  Some people have a baby. Some people end up having a sick parent. But at some point in time, always, 100% of the time, we have to bring it back to what is the life that you're trying to build because you can't really plan, design, have a relationship with work unless you understand some element of what is important to you and how are you trying to build that life.
• 25:34
  And what I hear you saying is that at that point in time, and this key moment when you realize, "Hey, I'm bringing a new child into this world," and that started changing some of your perspectives, it started to cause you to think about life and where you wanted to go, and where you wanted to be taken, at the same time, in a very different way, and I think that's so cool and so important. I think that had you ignored that or had we somehow eliminated all of the other life pieces that are outside of work and not included those in the conversation of what you're trying to build, then you just can't arrive at a wonderful outcome.
• 26:11
  Like, it's impossible because they're inseparable. They're mutually inclusive, I guess. So you have said maybe more than once along the way that if you made a shift in your career and that had come sooner prior to realizing you were going to have a baby, then you probably would've jumped into something that you weren't actually ready for. So I'm curious about that. Thinking about that now, how do you feel about it, and why do you now feel it wouldn't have been the right thing?
• 26:38
  Alanna Ojibway: I think a lot of it has to do with how much time I spent really getting to know myself and making decisions that had some sort of reference point beyond... Like, I'm someone who's very passion-struck, and I'm fully aware of that, but I knew going into this coaching, that was one of the things I said up front was like, "I'm pretty easily swooned by, 'Wow, that is, like, the most interesting thing ever.'"
• 27:04
  And then would just kind of dive fully in new directions. Easily excitable. And so I was just nervous that it would be too quick of a yes for something that it might be interesting, but I did not have, like, a super comprehensive what now I think of as, like, an ICP or some kind of reference point to say there are layers to what needs to go behind a yes and make sure it's checking a lot of boxes besides is it exciting and interesting to you.
• 27:31
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What are some of the examples of those layers now that jump to the top of your head where it's like, I must have these pieces for it to be not just interesting, but also fulfill the scope of what I'm trying to create as opposed to just be exciting in the moment?
• 27:47
  Alanna Ojibway: Definitely one of them is around growth and learning and an opportunity where you are in a position where you can and have access to constantly evolving. And growth in the sense that, like, there is not one way or answer to the job that you're learning, and so it's like you're living in a state of sort of navigating complexity. And then the relationships were also really have been a big thing for me where, like earlier when we were talking about that proximity piece, needing to be closer to those who are really directly impacted by issues.
• 28:22
  And that's sort of a two-ended spectrum because I have also done really direct service work in more social service oriented roles. And that was really meaningful in the sense that I was closely connected with people who were impacted, but I also always felt this tug at, like, you just kinda hit this, I would call it, like, the treadmill trauma, where it was just, like, you're seeing the same things again and again and again.
• 28:47
  And in those capacities, a lot of time you're just limited and coming up against systematic issues always. And so I think that balance between having access to power and decision-making at a system level or just being able to think about issues at a systematic level and still keeping a closer connection to people on the ground experiencing directly, bearing the brunt of those issues, that was really important to me.
• 29:14
  Like, being able to protect my personal life and having a balance in life and my professional work and, like, being able to keep both my own individual time, like my health and exercise and time outside. Like, all of those things were really important to feel like I need to feel balance in my day to day.
• 29:36
  And then needing, like, a space for creativity and an outlet for, like, thinking. To me, I think creativity looks a lot like sometimes artistic, but more so I think creativity in the sense that, like, I like seeing more so in strategy of, like, I like thinking about problems in a way that maybe others aren't seeing or connecting things in a way that people aren't already connecting and finding fun, bringing in, like, joyful ways of really, like, boring, stagnant processes and things where it's like, can this be more enjoyable for people? And so I, yeah, I think all of those pieces are really key ingredients for, like, those all need to be there.
• 30:17
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I think that's really interesting what you're saying, particularly about creativity and what you need for creativity and how that is so very different from the stereotypes around creativity. I think if you ask, you know, most people, I've discovered over the years that many people are like, "Oh, I'm not creative."
• 30:36
  And yet, as humans, we all need to create. Like, that is a undisputed, research-backed fact at this point. But to your point, what creativity looks like can be drastically different from one person to the next. And for you, being able to get in there and connect solutions to problems in very different ways than what the next person might be able to, and thinking about those problems very differently.
• 31:03
  That is, it is, like, there's no disputing that. That is creative. And yet it is not necessarily, I don't know, painting or drawing. The things that we tend to think and associate with creativity, like artistic creativity. So I appreciate you pointing that out, and I want to also point out something else, too.
• 31:21
  I think a really, another fun twist to your story is you thought that you were going to make a change in work in one way or another, whether that meant going to another organization, experiencing work in another completely different way, shifting roles, something. Like, there was going to be some massive change there, and you're still in the same location, same organization, and you did that intentionally, and so I'm curious about that. Tell me more about what caused that to be the right choice for you.
• 31:53
  Alanna Ojibway: That's a great question, and also I think made me just remember, I think one of the other pieces that became clear to me, like one of those ingredients, is that I'm actually really happiest when I am in multiple roles. I love wearing different hats, literally, but also in my work.
• 32:11
  I just feel like better energized when I'm like, I'm in this way on Monday, and then Tuesday we're doing something else. And I think for a long time that sort of felt scattered. Like looking at my resume, it was like, I was like social work during the day and a personal trainer at night and then doing massage, like all these things that was like, what is that?
• 32:30
  And then I think part of the decision to stay in this existing work and seeing that really as this best opportunity to be able to say yes to this new role was because like there are so many parts of this hat that I wear in the role that I'm doing with the organization that I've been with that I really love and really appreciate and it's like a really big version of myself that I wasn't ready to let go of.
• 32:56
  It was just that I felt like stagnant in that being the only version of me that I was doing in terms of work. And so this role moving into serving as a legislator is, for many people it's kind of a mess to have a job that goes five months of the year. But for me, that was actually one of the things that was most exciting.
• 33:15
  It was like, oh, I can have this very drastically different in person every day with many different types of people and, but it's five months of the year and then there's a law thankfully in Vermont that protects preserving your role or you can't essentially be fired for serving in the legislature.
• 33:20
  It was like, oh, I can have this very drastically different in person every day with many different types of people and, but it's five months of the year and then there's a law thankfully in Vermont that protects preserving your role or you can't essentially be fired for serving in the legislature.
• 33:34
  And so I'll be able to stay in my current job and just take a leave of absence during the legislative session. I'll still get to do both and so I can still wear this current hat, but I think just appreciate it more when it's not the only one that I'm wearing.
• 33:50
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Something that stands out to me about your story is that you started looking at different ways that you could have what you were looking for without just leaving the job. The way that you had originally come to it, like the conversation you and I had way back when, is obviously I need to leave the situation at some point in order for this to be good. And as you really got in there and started to understand what creates a better fit for you and what is this life that you're trying to build, then it became much more obvious that doesn't have to happen in that particular way.
• 34:25
  And you can recombine what you need with your existing, much of your existing situation. And I think that the reason that stands out to me is so many people feel powerless, like they need to make this absolutely massive 180 change or nothing, or they're gonna be stuck or feeling this way forever.
• 34:44
  And your situation is you did much more of a recombining. Yes, there are absolutely some things that fundamentally changed, like you're now a parent, you became interested in legislature and moved that direction. Those are big changes. But how they happened are not necessarily just completely cutting off, making a massive move. That's not how you found your solution. So anything that you would add to that in order to provide other color around the story for what actually happened?
• 35:12
  Alanna Ojibway: I think just not seeing them as like if you... To have sort of the things that I was craving and wanting differently, that it needed to be this totally drastic. Yeah, 'cause I think when we initially talked, I was like straight off the honeymoon phase. It was like, "Oh, good, I'm not depressed anymore. I just need to change everything else in my life, and then it'll all be good." And yeah, and then I think just like spending more time really thinking about what that would look like and what I wanted.
• 35:38
  And in between, there was also some experimenting with just saying yes to, like, volunteer opportunities and joining some boards and other things where it was, like, sampling to see if that was something that I wanted before making a switch into, "Oh, I'm gonna pursue that as a job." Had done some, like, consulting work and just some different ways of, like, sampling out what that might be.
• 36:01
  Scott Anthony Barlow: What did that look like to try and sample out?
• 36:04
  Alanna Ojibway: Sampling out was, some of it was in a volunteer capacity, so I joined three different boards. Two of them were local organizations, one of them is statewide. Very different focuses in areas because that was also something I was thinking about was like, "Oh, okay, is it a sector issue? I'm interested still in, like, a role like this, but I need to be in a different sort of, like, field or sector environment."
• 36:27
  So I tried to be strategic about, like, the statewide one. It was like, is it that scale that's more interesting to me and working with a wider range of community? Is it the issues or that sector piece?
• 36:39
  The consulting aspect, I think, was trying to understand or flex the muscle of going the direction of more like entrepreneurial, do I wanna start my own thing and piloting these ideas or projects, and that was really exciting and also was like, it was just like you are in this, like, constant hustle of trying to create something new and sustain these ideas, which was exciting.
• 37:05
  And also, again, taking the whole sort of picture of where I was at in life, it was like, okay, I'm also sleeping at best four hours a night with this newborn baby. You know, like, for me, it didn't feel like the right time to be in sort of an entrepreneurial state. But I was able to glean back to the basket piece.
• 37:20
  It was like, okay, but there are pieces of this that feels like it's getting closer, because I think that's where I started to really see that creativity piece come back again of I really do like sort of this connection between vision and possibilities, and then making really concrete strategy around, so how do we get there? What does that look like?
• 37:39
  And like in the different volunteer work, it was this aha that was like, there are all these different areas that I'm interested in, and what I feel best in is thinking about the connections between them and how they're actually more interrelated than the people at these individual organizations are talking about.
• 37:55
  And I was like, wow, it would actually be... Like imagine if there was a space that there was people who were talking about the work that all these different types of organizations are involved with. And so then I started thinking more about like a higher up bubble of like who is looking at different issues and different systems and more like interdisciplinary, so that it wasn't just, it's not just about switching to one sector, it's looking at who is working at the intersection of, like, many issues to think about how they're connected.
• 38:23
  And that combination of the creativity to think about, are there ways that we could be addressing sort of these collective problems and things that are coming up in a way that you're able to see how they're all connected and different ways of applying that strategy to all of them. So I think it just like between the experimenting, it wasn't like this immediate sort of aha, state government is the role, and that's the way to do it. The most creative space in the world, what everyone thinks of when you think of creativity.
• 38:51
  Scott Anthony Barlow: And that's such an important point, actually. I know you're joking and being facetious right now. But had you started out and said, "Okay, I need to go to a creative space," without all of that work to experiment and sample these ideas a little bit at a time, you never would've gotten there.
• 39:08
  It would've been an impossibility for any of us, let alone you, to see that. So I think that's so cool how when you go through this type of pulling things out and putting it into the basket, then it can take you places that we never could imagine separately. That's really awesome that you did it that way, by the way.
• 39:26
  Alanna Ojibway: Yeah, you're exactly right. That had that come up of, like, even earlier on in the coaching, which I don't think it would've, 'cause it wouldn't have come across as sort of like, "I have an idea of how you could meet those interests and those needs." It just wouldn't have, 'cause I don't think that sort of... And again, to the earlier question about if I had just listened to someone else's story, I just don't think in any way, a year or two years ago, the thought of state government would've been the click for me personally in terms of like that being this next avenue to combine all of these different like interests and things that feel fulfilling.
• 40:01
  It just wouldn't have clicked had I not gone through that process of like the gleaning to see what are those things that are important, what am I interested in, of these sort of like side quests of things I'm testing out and what I'm most interested in about them. Is there a role? Is there a place that exists that I could kinda combine these pieces that I've been collecting?
• 40:22
  Yeah, that would not have been a yes. It would not have been a clear even thought had I needed to kind of go through that collecting and processing on my own.
• 40:30
  Scott Anthony Barlow: And a great case in point, you and I happen to share some similar strengths and combinations of strengths. So you love to be able to strategically see the connection between different problems and challenges and solutions that might go into those problems and challenges, and to have that greater connectivity and purview, and I do as well.
• 40:53
  We're both very good at that, and we have, both have different strengths that lean into allowing us to be able to be good at that. And never in a million years would it have been the right situation for me to move into state government where it was exactly the right situation for you because of all of the other combination of variables. So to your point, like we as humans tend to oversimplify it and be like, "Okay, if I can just find like the one person, then that'll tell me everything I need to know," when in reality there are many thousands of combinations of all of the different variables that create the right fit for one person versus the next person.
• 41:31
  So again, I love that you're pointing that out. What have we not talked about within your story that you really want people to know?
• 41:38
  Alanna Ojibway: It's been something through this campaign process that's come up, and as you may have noticed, part of my creative, I think in metaphors a lot. It helps me sort of like understand, make sense of things.
• 41:50
  Yeah. I love metaphors. One of the metaphors that I think is also an important piece to this story in terms of like the process, but then the timing, I've been describing it in terms of, like, why did you decide to run and why now. As this combination of the soil being tilled and then also the timing of when the seed was planted, because I think they are two totally distinct things, and they are also dependent on each other, that they have to be in sync, like they are dependent on each other.
• 42:18
  And so the soil being tilled piece for me was all of the things we had just been talking about in terms of like that process, the basket collecting, seeing these connections to work I had been doing, all of that felt like that was increasingly, sort of, like, okay, this is like unearthing something and it's becoming clearer.
• 42:37
  And then the seed planting aspect of it is a really important part of the story, I think for me that again, is unique to me, but it's a combination of both sort of the context of our political climate and the world, and my son being this part of every aspect of like from the time I get up and watching him grow and this timing of feeling simultaneously so overwhelmed with feeling a little helpless in like what is happening in the world and what direction are we going, and just feeling like I don't know what else to be doing and feeling kind of defeated by that.
• 43:15
  And then simultaneously watching this baby turning into a bigger human and growing and evolving and thinking about this world that he's inheriting and feeling such an obligation to have a different role in where our future is going. And not that obviously I alone in any way will be redirecting the course of future, but every person does have their role in that.
• 43:40
  And so for me, that seed was really important and the timing of feeling we are at this really critical moment of heightened crisis, heightened chaos, heightened division, and feeling like it is not gonna change if people who represent a wider diversity of our communities continue to just feel stifled in that hopelessness and disengagement.
• 44:03
  And so, like, I really owe it to, I think, my son for feeling like that lit this fire of, yeah, feeling a charge to move in a direction that I think otherwise I would've felt I wasn't ready for, or I was nervous about, or it wasn't the right timing. And it was like he planted that seed, I think, whether I was aware of it or not at the time.
• 44:22
  Scott Anthony Barlow: That's amazing. What do you feel like is the single biggest lesson that the last couple years of experiences have taught you?
• 44:30
  Alanna Ojibway: It is always worth the discomfort of going through the process to step into unknown, to come into a place of just what's been on the other side of feeling like going from this time where I felt the most unsure of myself and what I wanted, what I needed.
• 44:48
  And that desire that we were talking about where it's like, "If I can only just find the person that like, that's the story, that's the thing I'll do." This desire to have, like, an easy, quick fix to make sense of uncertainty is so real, and also it's been the most important and beautiful learning of my life to go through this sort of messy, uncertain, discomfort phase of this process. It's worth it.
• 45:13
  Scott Anthony Barlow: I think if you would've asked me maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I would've said, "It's so annoying that you have to go through this," even though it... Like, lots of research out there to support the things that we feel like are the most worth it in many different ways, or the things that we don't regret are always those actions forward.
• 45:31
  The things that we do tend to regret are where we didn't act on it, where we didn't get outside our comfort zone, where we didn't take that step, where we didn't make that move, whatever it is. And I think at that point in time, I would've described it as rather annoying that's how it works in so many different ways.
• 45:47
  However, I think over the last 15 years, really started to try to lean into the, not to get too meta here, but, like, the discomfort of the discomfort and annoyingness more and more, and I think that's been much more helpful every single time, and it's allowed me to take those steps faster.
• 46:05
  Alanna Ojibway: That discomfort is the gift. That is the gift in the process. 'Cause it's like you think about, like, someone might see you have a medal from a half-marathon or a marathon that you did or something, and it's okay. The outcome could come across as like you ran this race, and it's like that's not the thing to be proud of to me.
• 46:23
  The thing that where your work came in, the gift of that was in hours of training that no one else saw. It was in all of the thoughts and times that you were like, "I'm not getting out of bed. I'm not doing this," and all the times that you showed up for yourself or you did something that was uncomfortable.
• 46:40
  It is the discomfort and you continuing to show up for yourself in that and through that, and what you learn about yourself in those moments of discomfort, that is the gift. And so I actually just think that's such a powerful thing for people to embrace. And yeah, I totally agree it's this very cliche and annoying thing, but it's like I just don't think there's any way around.
• 47:01
  There's no way around saying that the process itself and that discomfort, that is... When I think about, like, this new role, the new role to me is not the gift of what this journey has been. It's like, it's the process and it's the discomfort of, like, all I've learned and thought about and changed from in that time and through that discomfort.
• 47:19
  Scott Anthony Barlow: Thank you so much for making the time, taking the time, and being willing to share your story. I'm so excited that you're moving into this new journey. I can't wait to hear how it's going six months from now, a year from now.