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15 Years In Private Equity, One Year Lost To A Dev House | Wes Barnes, Associum · Founder F**K ups

• Ben Bagg: My guest today spent 15 years in private equity. He built and sold his first venture as well, a fun platform that he was quietly trying to make smarter with AI back in 2018, years before anyone was calling that a category. So when he started again, he had everything you're supposed to need, right? That domain expertise, a network that opened doors to VCs and even customers. And Actually his idea had the smartest people around him telling it was a good one. What he did not have was anyone who could build it. So people told him he heard them, but he went with consultants and dev houses instead. And he ended up losing the best part of a year finding out why a dev house does not work. Wes welcome to founderfuck ups. Wes Barnes: Hi Ben. Thanks for having me. Ben Bagg: After you sold your first venture, kinda tell me about the version of you that you were then. 'Cause I think you go through a what what's Elon I Elon Musk says when you're building a startup it's like eating glass and going through the abyss. So you learn a lot, right? Wes Barnes: Mm. Yeah. Ben Bagg: what what were you like at the time when you were thinking about building this next one? Wes Barnes: Well, it's interesting. I had gone from mainly thinking about being an investor and setting up a fun platform, enhanced using AI and data science, to deciding that actually what I had a passion for through that experience was developing the product, developing the technology. and so that also was a big mental transition to start. But Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: when I came out, I thought I had a lot of advantages. You know, I I knew my customer targets very well, I'd having been one, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: I had developed four different AI-related solutions related to the work. and and done so managing teams of developers, you know, different sets of developers to do different Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: things, and we had pulled things together. Really, the only thing that didn't take those all the way through to production was Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Wes Barnes: you know COVID happening and ultimately the fund platform not growing the way I thought it would. Yeah. But Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: I had I had sort of all these tools and like you said, I had network and so once I I narrowed down, okay, this is exactly what I wanna do, this is what I wanna build, I thought I should go out and start talking to people. Ben Bagg: Yeah, okay. No, it makes makes sense. And obviously coming through the COVID period and I think you had sort of more downs and ups building that initial venture Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: and you're coming into the next one and and now the next one is very much you're wanting to build a product. Wes Barnes: Yes. Ben Bagg: And I think people were pointing out to you that you needed a technical co-founder and I think a lot of advice was pointed towards, hey, look, you know, whereas you need to get a technical co-founder, this is gonna be massive kind of black box for you. what was the story you told yourself of why that advice wasn't right for you? Wes Barnes: Mm-hmm. Well, we we had had some success with the fund management platform and gotten it to a certain point. So I felt like sort of the model Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: that we had where I was thinking of what kind of products would be good for the industry. And then just working with someone to build it would be effective, particularly early on, right? It's not that I Ben Bagg: Right. Wes Barnes: didn't necessarily want a co founder. it was more a matter of I thought we could progress it far enough and then find the right person along the way, is maybe how I Ben Bagg: Okay. Wes Barnes: how I would say it. But actually what I realized was that I I should have spent more time trying to find that person and and then Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: and then flesh out what the product should be. Because, you know, as I was meeting people and like I had I had the Rolodex, I had a lot of friends Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: in different parts of the capital industry, I would talk to them and you know I'd share my ideas and you know I didn't share my ideas just talking like this. Of course I had slides, I had things, I had Ben Bagg: Show Wes Barnes: I had I didn't have a what I didn't have was a proper demo. Like I couldn't pull up a website Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: and show what the product would be. Right. And that that was one of the first things that you know was a signal to them and stimulated feedback to me, which is, Hey Wes, maybe maybe you should find someone who can help you on that side. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And so obviously you went out and and built your own and we'll we'll go into that a little bit later. you just moment ago said that perhaps I should have been looking for a co founder at the time, but sounds like the plan was I'll get one later. Like let me build my own foundations and I'll go get one later. And you regret you would prefer to have okay, yes, correct decision, but I should have been looking immediately, 'cause it takes time to find the right one. Wes Barnes: Yeah, I think so. I I I thought that with the experience that I had, I'd be able to put together good software. working Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: with because I worked with talented devs. It's not like I didn't work with talented people. I thought I would be able Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: to do that, right? and then I I didn't really pay enough attention perhaps to some of the I say softer issues around having a co-founder who's technical, not just the coding part. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: and had I done that earlier, I think I would have been able to move a lot faster, in terms of Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: realizing my idea and creating something. And then also, you know, bringing other people along with me, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: as clients or as investors to be able to really get that off the ground. I had this image Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: that I I would I would be able to do it because, you know, I had had, you know, a little bit of success up to that point, bringing Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: people together. Yeah. Ben Bagg: So your pitch deck and your roller decks have basically started to tell you, cool idea, we like it, but here's the gap, we wanna see something. We wanna s yeah yeah yeah. Wes Barnes: Yeah, what is it? What is it exactly? Yeah. You know, there's there's a the it's hard to articulate sometimes what you're doing, particularly in AI or data Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: science, without the actual physical product, right? Because there's a level Ben Bagg: Seeing something. Wes Barnes: of technology that, you know, people don't understand from day to day. So yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And so of and also like you said, you had your first venture you had actually dealt with devs before, so you kind of had a rough idea. So I'm starting Wes Barnes: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ben Bagg: to see why you were like, No, I could probably do this on like I could probably Wes Barnes: Yeah. And I was I was working with someone already at the time, on on that basis. So you know, I kind of had the the panel of people I was gonna work with, but not like a true co founder type. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And so the problem now is we've got to build our V P and you went to Wes Barnes: Right. Ben Bagg: Dev House, right? why what what what was go how come you decided to go through a dev house rather than perhaps build a small team yourself? Wes Barnes: Well, I I think first off was my own network, right? I came from traditional capital markets. So later stage private equity. I had I knew investors. I knew people who ran larger businesses. I didn't Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: really have a great network within the technology or startup space. Okay. so I think first off, I didn't have anyone directly in my network that I could go to and identify and pull in. So Ben Bagg: Okay. Wes Barnes: that's where, you know, I could have spent more time. developing that I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: would I would agree, but I was very much in a okay, let's move forward kind of mode. I have the vision. Ben Bagg: Pace, let's go. Wes Barnes: Yeah, I had the vision and I have done this before. So I can work with someone to sort of put together what I want. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: the drawbacks to that, even with a great development team are, you know, you you share your idea, they think about it, they come back and say, this is how we would do it. Right. And they're they're innovative. They come up with good ideas, the technology, how you would do it. I don't have a technology background. So there's only a certain level that I can evaluate that and say that's not enough, right? or or Ben Bagg: Yes. Yeah. Wes Barnes: that is aligned with what I what I want. Okay. So then they go off and do it. And once you once you set that scope, it ends up, you know, every time you want to change it, it's an expansion, it's more money. Exactly. Right. So which which doesn't, I mean, it really isn't startup speed. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: And so, so although we were able to accomplish king things and build things with them. Know there's always some point at a project where you're kind of like, I'm not sure. Maybe we have to cut corners, right? Maybe this is not what I really want. How am I going to use this? And I think that's a big drawback. Whereas when you you, you know, had I had a co-founder with me who's t technically inclined, we Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: we really would have had that one-to-punch of I have the domain experience, he or she has the technical experience, and we can build something together. Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: And and and that person would also be very invested in what the outcome is. So so Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: thinking of ideas to you know, adapt technology to what we wanted to do, changing things midstream, iterating Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: more quickly, all would have been much, much, much easier to do than like with a with a dev team, Ben Bagg: Yeah, absolutely. Wes Barnes: I in my experience, you know. Ben Bagg: I like I kinda like how you've explained that. Like I think obviously dev dev shops cost a lot and we'll talk about that in a moment. but I think what it looks like week to week is that w you are it's a service provider, they've give you've agreed a scope and they wanna stick to that in any iteration, any shift they are gonna charge you more, they're gonna ask you and it slows everything down and that's where probably a a lot more cost comes from in like the pace of iteration, the frustration I can imagine every time you're thinking about a shift and then they're saying, Hey, can we need to send you a quotation must have been incredibly frustrating as well. Wes Barnes: Yeah. I I just think that model is not really designed for startups, right? It's designed for larger companies. is you know, we have this project that we're doing as part of a larger panel of projects that typically they would already have some technical people inside that would be able to Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: evaluate and manage these. And they aren't used to the speed you need to be at at at sort of a startup level. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. No, I couldn't couldn't agree more. And what how long did you end up working with the Dev House for? Wes Barnes: so I I worked with a couple of them different projects. I'd say like I think I mentioned earlier, kind of a year where I mean part of it was Ben Bagg: Out of you. Wes Barnes: also deciding what the product was gonna be. And and to be fair, we went so say this is twenty twenty two when we first started on this part. we went from Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: machine learning AI to generative AI. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: Right, which was a big shift. And then as you know, we were catching the pivot to that, that's when I said, You know what, actually I think we need to bring bring more people on Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: and to to build and drive the business. 'Cause I was using third party tools and things to try to show a demo, but it wasn't wasn't working very Ben Bagg: wasn't working. And so you were s you know, soon after then obviously you start getting cursor and things like that coming out. Did that help your development pace? Or because the dev house was still scoping and and and moving and you Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: didn't feel the benefits of generative AI quickly enough because a lot of obviously teams were like 10xing their engineering capabilities within in like twenty Wes Barnes: Yeah. Ben Bagg: twenty-three for example. Wes Barnes: Yeah, well thankfully by the time that those tools came out, I had already found my co-founder. Okay. So yeah, exactly. Exactly. Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha. Wes Barnes: So so I didn't I wasn't really tempted by trying to use these tools and set up things on my own. I did use one called custom GPT. I don't know if you've heard of this company, custom GPT, which was very, very early helping you with memory. And and use so it was a wrapper that had some memory attached to AI. Yeah, so so Ben Bagg: Okay. Actually I think I have heard of them. Actually. Wes Barnes: they were they were really early on. And I I kind of was doing some demos like using that platform to show examples of what could be possible, right? but we didn't use any of the coding tools. now, of course, we we use them all the time, right? My my team Ben Bagg: Sure. Wes Barnes: uses these coding tools all the time. It's really integral to how we work, and I think it has to be, right? But I also think you have to have People that understand what they're producing, right? Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And was it when 'cause obviously we had the Dev House work dev houses working with you for for nearly a year and then Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: you're still going into custom GPT to kind of fork out some kind of demo to to I guess go when you're going to meetings and meeting all your network to show them something. Wes Barnes: Well, it's it's pivots, right? It's pivots. So so you you have the defined scope of the dev house, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: right? They deliver, you have that as an asset, right? And you have whatever deliverables come out of that, but then something changes and you need to adapt. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: Right. You see the opportunities very like for example, particularly within my area, a key challenge was always natural language processing, right? Our vision was Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: that we wanted to take all this information that private markets investors would have. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: process it and then use it for different types of AI analysis. Right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: Okay. generative AI like dropped the cost of that tremendously. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: Right? So whereas before generative AI, I would have needed I needed to design a system for that. How do you extract these features, right? How do you how do you have a data pipeline? Post generative AI, the data pipeline could be built with these tools already. And that was a that was a big shift. Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: So when when I saw that I was like, I've got to pivot somehow. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: Right. And it was good in the sense that I don't need to have a special natural language processing app to process this PDF. Yeah. Okay. So pivots it's a Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah, now now Yeah, so the pivots kept ki well kept coming and obviously GPT or generative AI kind of probably only enhanced that. obviously you were meeting your your network with custom GPs to show how what were those meetings feeling like when you're kind of not got the the most exciting demo able to to show them? Wes Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I I'm pretty you know, when I have a vision, I really believe it. And so, so Ben Bagg: Excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: it was it was frustrating, honestly, you know, that I felt like I had articulated Ben Bagg: Okay. Wes Barnes: something that was sort of to me a very clear opportunity. And and they, you know, they didn't disagree. Like they like for the most part, like, yeah, I understand, like we see how this is happening, but there was always this final line of, okay, well, what's the product? Can you show me the product, right? And I Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: could explain what I was thinking, but without that that image, right? And I'm not saying that like you just need a technical co-founder to develop an MVP, because I'm also sure in the back of their minds they're like, well, hey, look, Wes is great, he's got a good connection, he's got all that domain expertise. But how's he gonna build something? Right? And Ben Bagg: Figure it out here. Yeah. Wes Barnes: and and this time this was the time before people felt like, well, I could just use cursor or I could use some other Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: some other app. so I that was a very real question. But even today, I think it's still a really important question because I don't think you can really build true enterprise software if you don't have a technical background just using these apps. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: I would be surprised. I see my team, and you know, my team has great technical experience, right? And and they are using this and constructing this great piece of software. I I don't think without that base experience you can do it so well. You know, now there's lots of people probably that watch you that have technical experience. Right. And so can use those more effectively, to which I'd say, well, maybe you need a more domain driven co-founder. Right. So so Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: when we talk about like why a co-founder, I mean, I you know, through some some pain and bruising, I kind of came over, yeah, like I think I think it's it that that that adage is true that everyone should have a co-founder. Ben Bagg: I I I couldn't agree more. there's so many reasons why you should have a co founder beyond just the the domain expertise of, you know, maybe being that t the technical side or the distribution side or just the domain. there's also an element of executive loneliness and accountability and you know, 'cause very quickly you find out the people who work for you work for you. Then unfortunately Wes Barnes: Yes. Ben Bagg: they're not your peers who are who are staying up till one AM trying to solve a problem with you. Very rarely Wes Barnes: That's right. Ben Bagg: are are they are they like that. I think sometimes we're a little bit naive that we think our employees will just love our mission so much that all of them will be will be sacrifice making as many sacrifices. Wes Barnes: Right. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And just ideas going back and forth. I mean, certainly my co founder has introduced ideas to me that I hadn't thought of that are that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: are great. Right. And because we're all operating sort of with our past experience, we can all use outside voices. And like you said, having an outside voice that is, you know, really sort of in the trenches with you. Right. To understands and and and is Ben Bagg: Yeah, who understands them? Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: willing to put forth that extra effort to make sure it it's realized. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Can I agree more? So you identified really the real problem here was the lack of having a co founder. We needed to bring in you needed that expertise in your team, the technical expertise, 'cause Wes Barnes: Yes. Ben Bagg: that was the biggest gap that basically the business had to for the next stage of either, you know, capital raise or actually acquiring the right kind of customers and so on. Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: Talk to me about how you found I know you eventually found a good technical co founder, spoiler spoiler alert, but like Wes Barnes: Yeah. Yes. Ben Bagg: what was the What was the process? Like how did you go about it? Wes Barnes: Yeah, so so I I started doing more sort of startup kind of events and I met people, but you everyone there is already doing their own thing, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: so so I tried to network and talk to people. I also tried like sort of putting notices out on like employment boards and things like this. I'm looking Ben Bagg: So Wes Barnes: for this kind of profile and you know, it wasn't saying I wanted to be a co founder, obviously at that point. I think 'cause to me it was really important that there was a fit. with that person. Right. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Culture fit. Wes Barnes: and and so in that process, someone reached out to me and we had an initial chat and he understood what I was talking about, which is wonderful. because a lot of people, a lot of people were you know, still like didn't see it the same way. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: he had been working on some things. I mean he came from from industry, a great, great background. So he under you know he kind of understood it very well. and then he went away for a while. Ben Bagg: Okay. Wes Barnes: we messaged, we talked, we were thinking about Well, I mean, it w like I was I was looking around, I think he was also deciding what the next Ben Bagg: He went away for a while? Like he went on a Wes Barnes: step would be, right? And then we we met again. So it's kind of like it was kind of like a long dating period, right? We met again Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: in after like maybe four or six months, something like this. Ben Bagg: Okay, wow. Wes Barnes: And and that's when we really started talking about okay, what should the product be? How should we, what should we target? And soon after and we talked about values and you know how we viewed the world, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: what we thought would happen with AI within finance and financial services. And that really I think ultimately convinced us both that we were the right partnership. Ben Bagg: Yeah. It's so important when you're you're thinking about a co founder to think about the values and the Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: vision beyond and I remember with my my first business we I was merging with another one, not from any sort of big proper and A, but more of a hey, let's just come together and and be co founders and bring our two companies together. And we went through the according ph phase where Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: we were saying like, what happens if one of us die? Like we were writing all of this stuff down. It was becoming a Wes Barnes: Yeah. Ben Bagg: kind of a mini shareholders agreement. What are your core values? What are your do nots? And like for example Wes Barnes: Right. Yeah. Ben Bagg: my co founder who's Malaysian, she said, we never ever bribe. That was like an absolute c you and in Malaysia it's actually important to say that. You know? Wes Barnes: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean it's something. Yeah. Ben Bagg: but so it's I think that's a a really important thing that a lot of co-founder matching groups don't do. Like when you like I I think not to shit on groups like Antler and things 'cause think they do some really amazing stuff, but sometimes they just kind of shove people together and go, let's see what happens. I'm glad that you went through that process. So you went through a Wes Barnes: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you I mean, I think you so I was gonna say you you know, you you were you gave the example of sort of the shareholders agreement, almost like constitutional way of working with each other, which I think Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: is really important. But it's also just the the basics, right? Like I'm I'm a pretty direct person, not in a rude way, but you know, if I see a problem, I I identify it, right? And I also want people to respond to me that way. You know, if I'm like not doing my marketing correctly, I need someone to tell me. What do I know? Right, you know, I don't know everything, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: right? And so but you have to set those ground rules because a lot of people will say, Well, I don't know, can I say this to him? Can I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: tell him? Right. And you so you have to set like you have to have that culture like we're gonna be very open with each other and if we think something is different, we're gonna tell each other and we're not gonna take it personally. Ben Bagg: All right. Wes Barnes: Right. We're not gonna be like, that's my idea and you know, I'm upset Ben Bagg: it's it's so critical. Like if you can't tell each other, if you can't what I call put the elephant in the room with each other, then that's already a massive red flag of your relationship. Wes Barnes: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: You know. if you're having to sugarcoat things, it's it's not a good fit. So what changed in the sort of first ninety days of bringing them in? Wes Barnes: Well, I I mean everything, honestly. And this is Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: why when you ask me, this is what I point out, because you know, ideas are great. They have Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: to be executed upon, right? And not only did my co founder bring a lot of expertise and understanding of this industry and what we're trying to do, he also knew people that could join us as part Ben Bagg: Really? Wes Barnes: of a team. So, you know, went fairly quickly from okay, it's Wes and my co founder, to us as co founders and a team of people. Not huge team, but a few people that are working along with us to develop software and and very good people, right? So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: people that I myself, I don't, I would never have had access to. I, you know, I don't know if I personally would have been able to convince them. So a lot changed, right? And Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: then, you know, we went from I mean, we developed our sort of first iteration in VP in the span of sort of six months. And then Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: in another six months, we had a very like strong commercial version, right? so so these things. you know, everything accelerated and all the Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: conversations we're having got easier because it was very clear, okay, Wes is the domain person with the contacts. Vishal is the technical person who Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: understands the technology and is leading the tech side. And I can trust that together they have the necessary sort of competencies for for what they're doing. Right. And that that helped a lot. Yeah. Yeah that helped a Ben Bagg: Yeah. So now So now when you're in the meetings and like how the hell are you gonna build this whereas? It's more like, Okay, you guys are gonna build this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: Yeah, it wasn't even it wasn't even a question. Yeah, exactly. You know, no one no one questioned. and so I mean th w there are always discussions around the market size or you know, how does it work Ben Bagg: Sure, sure. Wes Barnes: or whatever, but not not the very fundamental you know, execution type question. Ben Bagg: Yeah, no, great. And one one other thing I w I would like to ask, that some people I think who are considering getting a co founder might think about is you had already spent fair amount of money you had already invested, you know, time, resources, your initial idea. But you brought in this co founder. Like how do you make them an equity partner? Like what what how does someone then think, Okay, what what are they worth? Like was that a difficult part of the process, like thinking about 'cause if you're starting together maybe you're coming in fifty fifty, right? Or yeah. Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: But You've obviously started it, idea, invested capital. how did that Wes Barnes: Yeah. Ben Bagg: conversation go? How did that work? Wes Barnes: well I think, you know, it was a conversation. We had we had to figure that out. I think we both tried to be pretty practical about it. on Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: the one hand, I was bringing like let's say IP, so to speak, things that we had developed, experience, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: my networks, my you know, my contacts, to start. but you know, he was also bringing his own experience and credibility. Ben Bagg: Absolutely. Wes Barnes: and the you know the ability to you know help me build like to realize this vision right so Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: so i I mean I I think we came to a pretty reasonable kind of arrangement. what what I think is important is you know until you have something you have nothing. Right? So so you you Ben Bagg: Exactly. Exactly. Wes Barnes: kinda you kinda have to you may not like the numbers Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: But you have to be fair about it. And that's how I approached it. you Ben Bagg: Yeah. That's good. Wes Barnes: know, I talk to people all the time who are ex coming for like more experienced people like me who are coming out of industry, want to join a startup. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: And their questions, well, how much equity should I get? Right? And that's a tough question because you know, when you're coming out like kind of mid career and you're looking to join a startup, it's probably a more senior position. It's a relevant position. And you think, I should have so much equity, right? You know, but that's not really how it works, right? So, Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha nice. Wes Barnes: so I I mean, I think we I took more of a thing of, hey, we're starting this like almost together. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: Right. And and that's the way I took it because I was like, you know, yeah, those we I don't have I have an idea, right? I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: have an idea, I have some contacts, I have some networks. I don't have the product yet, and we're gonna build that together. So Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: So I I mean I like to think that Ben Bagg: It's a very good way to look at it. Wes Barnes: we we we came to something that was satisfactory for Ben Bagg: Yeah, and and you know, the rela you you're getting into a ten year marriage at the end of the day. Wes Barnes: Yeah, that's right. Ben Bagg: or maybe you were playing around before but you know, good. I think that's a really good way to look at it, 'cause you know, you had s some cost fallacy, you know what I mean? You had put Wes Barnes: Mm-hmm. Ben Bagg: actual money into the in into the business. So sometimes people get a little bit too attached or controlling and you know, so I'm I'm glad you're up with that. In twenty eighteen, obviously things were very different on on when you were starting and how you would build and then of course all the way and then in twenty twenty two, even then it's different to what it is now. Wes Barnes: Yes. Ben Bagg: if you were starting over right now, 'cause some people think that you don't need a technical co founder anymore, 'cause Replic and Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: Lovable and and these V P builds, Wes Barnes: Right. Ben Bagg: at least at the first stage, are enough and then perhaps you could hire a technical technical lead. Wes Barnes: Mm, mm hmm, mm. Ben Bagg: I I I I'm I'm gonna hazard a guess you still think a co founder wins. Well w what do you think about that where some co some founders I mean Wes Barnes: Yeah. Ben Bagg: they don't need a technical co founder anymore. Wes Barnes: Well, I mean, first off, I think it depends a lot on what you're building, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: And what your own background is. If you're a technical person and you're just trying to develop a tool that someone's gonna buy for a low price to put in their software, maybe you don't need to have like a full like domain co founder type. Maybe you can create something small and see how it works. I think creating something small Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: and see how it works is probably a good idea for any type of founder. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: And and and these tools do help you do that. Right. if you have an idea, you want to see if it works, that's great. But you also have to look at yourself realistically. So let's say Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: that you know, I'm coming out, I have all these tools. Could I build the platform that we have today at Associum? No. It's not possible. It's not it's not possible to build like really great enterprise software like that. And Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: so so you know, if I were doing something else. Maybe I could pull together a workflow and use these coding tools to create something to sell. But I don't know. I think there's a there's a ceiling on how far you can go without having someone that compliments you, particularly Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: if you're saying, hey, I want to build a company that should be highly scalable. I want to see it grow, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: I want to see it global. technical issues aside, like you mentioned, there's just also these issues of of of having a partner to go through it all together. There's too much to do. if you really plan to scale the business quickly, to do it all by Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Wes Barnes: yourself. even with all these great tools. that Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: that's that's how I feel. Ben Bagg: I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I also think as well when you're building you can anyone can spin up a simple basic MVP nowadays, depending on of course the the space you're in, which kind of gives people a sense of perhaps a bit too much self worth or or think that they're they're they're better than they than they think they are. But actually Wes Barnes: Mm. Ben Bagg: when I look at some of the the teams that I coach, that The teams with the technical co-founder are building with the engineering mind of like, well, hey, we we don't want all this to be there. Wes Barnes: Mm. Yes. They have the structure. Ben Bagg: Yeah, they they understand the structure, they understand the infrastructure required, and the technical capabilities needed. And yeah, sure they can use AI to do that nobody's writing code anymore. But it's about knowing where to t point your point the direction, right? Yeah, f fa thanks for sharing. And it it What would you say to sort of a founder who's listening and actually I know a couple who are coming out of corporate, they've made some money, they've got some some cash in the bank, they've got a domain expertise related idea that they want to execute. What do you think to them going with, hey, let's sign with a dev house to get something going? Or let's actually slow the fuck down and go and get a technical co-founder. What what what what would you say to someone who's thinking about that? Wes Barnes: So h here's here's what I think and and my experience. And although I th I tried to put it do it this way early on, I think it it's a good mindset to have, which is to say, okay, you're coming out of corporate, you have some resources already, and Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: you probably said, Hey, I'm gonna spend this to realize my idea, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: I think the the I'm a big fan of playing poker, okay? And Ben Bagg: Okay. Wes Barnes: and what I like about poker is that it kind of forces you to think about I'm gonna bet this, and here's what I expect to get out of it. Here's what I expect to win out of it, right? If I bet Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: this much, right now, you may not win that, okay, but it forces you to think about should I do this, should I not? How much, how much should I do? Right? Ben Bagg: Screw up. Yeah. Wes Barnes: And what do I expect to get out of it? So I I mean, my suggestion would be one, like kind of have that mentality. Like if you're if you say that I'm gonna spend a hundred dollars a month on Claude Code, okay, that's good. Ben Bagg: Mm. Wes Barnes: What are you going to get out of it? What are you going Ben Bagg: Pretty drive. Yeah. Wes Barnes: to get out of it? Right? what actually are you going to build with that? It that is going to take you to the next level or the next step of where you're going to be, right? Like how do you Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: how do you spend that money in a way that you're sort of building value? Right. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: And and the same thing if you're going to a dev house, right? What are you going to ask them to do that's going to build value for you? How much do you have to pay for that? And then how do you compare that to the cost of either trying to do it on your own or spending the time to find the technical co-founder first? You know, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: if you're if you're looking to build a lifestyle business, like I said, if you're looking for something small, you want to sell something online, right? And you know, it I I'll call it more of a lifestyle business, which is not pejorative, but you know, just a business that you're not expecting to get venture funding and not to scale like crazy, right? Ben Bagg: Like Wes Barnes: Then I mean, maybe maybe you can because you know, time time is a valuable thing. Anyway, but it's even more valuable if you're trying to get that venture scale, right? if you're looking to sell, you can certainly use these AI tools to develop your website. And but you know, Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wes Barnes: so what I would say to someone coming out of corporate is just be very thoughtful about how you're gonna spend the money because you need more than you think. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: and I would still recommend if you're doing something venture scale, you have an idea that's venture scale that you find a co-founder who compliments Ben Bagg: Yeah. Wes Barnes: you, whatever your skill set is. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And I guess one just to colour the add one step to what you were already saying from what you said earlier, is that let's say you get a quote of fifty K from your your dev house and you accept that risk, there will be scope creep and there w and that price will likely go up. So bear that in mind too. Like don't don't be naive and think it's fifty K and I'm done. It's the inspiration. Wes Barnes: Yeah, yeah. And and and yeah, and appreciate that there should be so 50k is a lot of money, right? To develop something, right? And Ben Bagg: Sure, sure, yes. Wes Barnes: and and it's a lot of money, especially in today's context with these AI tools. Because most devs you you will work with now will be using these tools. Right. so you should also expect that the for the for the money, the quality of work is higher. The amount of things they will do is higher, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Wes Barnes: Because because when you have a team who know what they're doing and you have these tools already embedded, things should happen faster. Smaller things can be done more easily. Right. and so I think how I would work with a dev today versus how I worked with a dev previously would be very, very different. Cause my expectations would be a lot higher. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Couldn't agree more. Wes, thank you so much for coming on the pod and and sharing your your story. Appreciate it. Thanks. Wes Barnes: Mm. Thanks for having me. Cheers.