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Biotech Pioneer Detlev Riesner on Building Qiagen (Pt 1) · Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™

• WEBVTT 00:00:05.077 --> 00:00:13.197 Welcome to startuprad.io your podcast and youtube blog covering the german startup 00:00:13.197 --> 00:00:17.697 scene with news interviews and live events. 00:00:13.360 --> 00:00:19.120 Music. 00:00:19.617 --> 00:00:24.997 Hello and welcome everybody this is joe from startuprad.io your startup podcast 00:00:24.997 --> 00:00:26.937 and youtube blog from Germany. 00:00:27.277 --> 00:00:30.857 Today, I bring you another interesting interview. 00:00:31.357 --> 00:00:35.097 Imagine starting your career under the supervision of a Nobel laureate, 00:00:35.297 --> 00:00:39.377 diving deep into groundbreaking research and then making the bold leap into 00:00:39.377 --> 00:00:45.117 entrepreneurship, only to build a company that will become a global biotech powerhouse. 00:00:45.317 --> 00:00:49.957 Today, we're talking to Professor Detlef Reisner, a scientist turned entrepreneur 00:00:49.957 --> 00:00:56.417 who started his academic journey at Heinrich Heine University and Technical University Darmstadt, 00:00:56.757 --> 00:01:00.797 spent time at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Studies, and then took an even 00:01:00.797 --> 00:01:04.917 bigger leap, trying to turn cutting-edge science into a business. 00:01:05.177 --> 00:01:09.497 But it wasn't easy. Imagine hurdles of launching a biotech startup in Germany 00:01:09.497 --> 00:01:13.377 in the 1980s, before venture capital was even a thing there, 00:01:13.717 --> 00:01:18.597 against all odds, co-founding Kia Gehen, which became the first ever German 00:01:18.597 --> 00:01:21.237 company to list on Nasdaq in 1996. 00:01:21.917 --> 00:01:26.977 And as if that wasn't enough, he later led the company as chair of the supervisory 00:01:26.977 --> 00:01:32.237 board, bringing into DAX 40 Germany's elite stock index. 00:01:32.637 --> 00:01:36.817 What does it take to bridge science and business, to push through failures and 00:01:36.817 --> 00:01:38.537 to build a global biotech leader? 00:01:38.797 --> 00:01:42.117 That's what we'll find out today. Stay tuned. 00:01:42.517 --> 00:01:45.097 Professor Riesner, welcome to StartupRaid.io. 00:01:46.117 --> 00:01:51.037 Thank you. I'm happy to answer your questions. 00:01:52.237 --> 00:01:55.237 Yes, and I do have a lot here for you. 00:01:55.797 --> 00:02:06.577 At first, would you consider yourself to be an example other entrepreneurs could 00:02:06.577 --> 00:02:08.537 follow in what you've learned? 00:02:12.139 --> 00:02:15.059 To a particular extent, yes. 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:24.859 If I speak to younger people, then I say the main point is that you have a good idea. 00:02:25.899 --> 00:02:33.019 You have not to do the market to estimate the market situation. 00:02:33.019 --> 00:02:38.719 If you can estimate the market situation then your idea is not innovative, 00:02:39.819 --> 00:02:44.679 when your idea is innovative then there is no market you have to build a new 00:02:44.679 --> 00:02:50.739 market that is an innovation that is the first point whether I have seen that 00:02:50.739 --> 00:02:57.199 at that time I don't know I do not remember but that is from the retrospective what I would say, 00:02:58.259 --> 00:03:03.439 and so today I would say yeah, it's important you have a good idea. 00:03:04.999 --> 00:03:08.079 People will sometimes use it. 00:03:08.419 --> 00:03:14.779 Mostly if you are working in academia, other academicians will use it. 00:03:14.939 --> 00:03:16.399 And that is already okay. 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:22.899 If other academicians will use it to the normal market, it goes later anyway. 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:30.059 Therefore, that's the point. And the second is, yeah, If you have an academic 00:03:30.059 --> 00:03:37.639 position, you have to agree that it is a lot of additional work. 00:03:38.519 --> 00:03:43.559 And as a professor alone, you cannot do that. That is clear. 00:03:44.839 --> 00:03:52.499 So you have either to good students or to good co-operators or to very good 00:03:52.499 --> 00:03:57.119 colleagues so that you can work in a team. 00:03:57.659 --> 00:04:02.199 From the beginning on, we worked always in a team. 00:04:03.019 --> 00:04:09.139 And I fulfilled also in future always my academic position, 00:04:09.539 --> 00:04:19.579 but I was, so to speak, the link to the science, which I could always then bring to the company, 00:04:20.599 --> 00:04:25.119 and, but the link to the science, where as the younger people had to do the 00:04:25.119 --> 00:04:30.219 link to the market, to build on the link to the market, that was not my job. 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.019 And so, what you need is a lot of endurance. 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:41.780 And what I see and those things sometimes I saw that later, 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:50.240 you have to have the capability, the mental capability, particularly the capability 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.620 of your mindset, of your character, 00:04:53.260 --> 00:04:55.880 that you can divide success. 00:04:56.540 --> 00:05:03.880 Some people I met, they said, oh, the main point is that I have more than 50%, so I can say what to do. 00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:07.000 Nonsense. Bullshit, I would say. 00:05:08.380 --> 00:05:16.600 What to do is always the opinion of the people who give the money, 00:05:16.960 --> 00:05:21.800 and whether you have over 50 or less than 50, doesn't matter anyway. 00:05:22.280 --> 00:05:27.480 The people who give the money they have an extremely important 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.320 word for the company and we had 00:05:30.320 --> 00:05:37.660 to see that too yeah so that's the point i think and then if you have in the 00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:45.020 next seeding round you have to give up shares it's completely clear but i remember 00:05:45.020 --> 00:05:50.100 the word of mosher alafi who was one of our investors. 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:57.180 Moshe Alaafi was a very successful Silicon Valley investor and he told us. 00:05:58.140 --> 00:06:08.980 He said as boys, he normally called us boys, if you have 50% of a company which doesn't work well, 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.780 all you have are sleepless nights. 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:18.580 If you have 2% of a well-running company, 00:06:19.140 --> 00:06:24.840 you are rich people that is the difference between 50 and two percent okay so 00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:30.700 that is probably the first what i have to say i don't know it did answer your question, 00:06:31.640 --> 00:06:38.180 to some extent at least yes and we may also add that is still today you are 00:06:38.180 --> 00:06:43.420 pretty active and involved i i've seen you at the larger business angel talk 00:06:43.420 --> 00:06:47.120 in november in minds we didn't get the opportunity to talk there, 00:06:47.260 --> 00:06:51.820 but they've been kind enough to help me organize this interview here. 00:06:52.880 --> 00:06:54.740 Big thank to the organization team there. 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:01.860 Could you share the key experiences during your time at Princeton and University 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:07.400 of California, San Francisco that influenced the trajectory of your research? 00:07:10.937 --> 00:07:18.717 Yes, in Princeton, I worked mainly on nucleic acids and nucleic acid protein interactions. 00:07:19.337 --> 00:07:23.057 And that was important for the research when I was back. 00:07:23.237 --> 00:07:30.457 But when I have to say in Princeton, I was a postdoc and I were interested in my academic career. 00:07:31.737 --> 00:07:36.717 I wrote already a patent, but this patent never brought any money, 00:07:36.877 --> 00:07:39.157 so it was too theoretical. 00:07:40.217 --> 00:07:48.397 So the Princeton experience was a very good personal experience and scientific experience. 00:07:48.857 --> 00:07:53.457 The impact to the company was probably not so big. 00:07:54.057 --> 00:08:00.377 And the UCSF experience, that was at the time when I had to say, 00:08:00.497 --> 00:08:05.437 oh, I set up a company, I was involved in setting up the company as a professor. 00:08:05.657 --> 00:08:07.737 I have to start now new things, yeah. 00:08:08.097 --> 00:08:13.157 The company is running, but as a professor, I have to start new things, 00:08:13.257 --> 00:08:14.637 new scientific things, yeah. 00:08:14.837 --> 00:08:20.797 And that was the reason why I went to Stanley Prusiner for postdocs before I 00:08:20.797 --> 00:08:23.057 worked on infectious nucleic acids. 00:08:23.417 --> 00:08:27.077 And then I heard, I had a lot of contact with Stanley Prusiner, 00:08:27.097 --> 00:08:29.437 he said, there are infectious proteins. 00:08:29.857 --> 00:08:34.297 Oh, I said, how interesting. Let me go into that field now. 00:08:34.837 --> 00:08:40.397 The nucleic acids are well taken by the company already. 00:08:40.737 --> 00:08:48.157 So the company was already working when I had my sabbatical in San Francisco. I see. 00:08:49.337 --> 00:08:55.077 Your work on virals and prions has been pioneering. 00:08:55.317 --> 00:09:01.237 What initially drew you to study these infectious agents and what were some 00:09:01.237 --> 00:09:03.537 of the challenges you faced in this research. 00:09:04.694 --> 00:09:11.414 Yeah, this question comes to the point of the company, yeah. 00:09:11.974 --> 00:09:14.974 Viroids were infectious nucleic acids. 00:09:15.374 --> 00:09:20.194 And I heard from a German colleague there that those things exist. 00:09:20.614 --> 00:09:24.354 A lot of people thought it doesn't exist at all, yeah. 00:09:24.434 --> 00:09:28.834 A small nucleic acid cannot be worked like a complete virus. 00:09:28.834 --> 00:09:34.234 But viroids, which is probably 1% in the size, 00:09:34.494 --> 00:09:44.614 1% of a complete virus, and viruses were thought to be the smallest infectious entities, 00:09:45.234 --> 00:09:52.394 but viroids, only a nucleic acid, 350 nucleotides, has the same phenomenology. 00:09:52.634 --> 00:09:55.914 That means it's infectious and it's pathological. 00:09:57.274 --> 00:10:03.634 And I said oh that is extremely interesting for a physical researcher like me 00:10:03.634 --> 00:10:10.854 I have now a molecule in hand which I can handle and I can study it is simple enough, 00:10:11.714 --> 00:10:21.114 to study with physical methods if the biological system is too big at that time 00:10:21.114 --> 00:10:24.394 it was in the 70s you could not really study 00:10:24.494 --> 00:10:26.794 with physical methods, 00:10:27.034 --> 00:10:31.774 you could study with X-ray proteins. 00:10:32.754 --> 00:10:34.494 But these steroids were a complete 00:10:34.494 --> 00:10:39.354 biological system. That was so interesting. And then we said, but…, 00:10:40.154 --> 00:10:48.254 First, we had a few micrograms from the viroid and that is very cumbersome to work with that. 00:10:48.674 --> 00:10:55.314 And we thought, okay, we have to purify. We have to develop methods to purify 00:10:55.314 --> 00:10:57.354 the viroids for our research. 00:10:58.054 --> 00:11:02.374 And then I had a very good student who was a chemist who said, 00:11:02.474 --> 00:11:06.334 okay, I will do that in my PhD work that was made in Kolpan. 00:11:06.534 --> 00:11:12.434 I developed a chromatographer. So, we discussed a lot how this chromatography 00:11:12.434 --> 00:11:17.034 should be, and then, one or two years later. 00:11:18.714 --> 00:11:28.374 He could present really a chromatographic column which purified virals, 00:11:28.554 --> 00:11:33.014 and now we had probably suddenly milligrams of virals in our hands. 00:11:34.674 --> 00:11:40.054 And I reported that on conferences and the people said, oh, how nice, 00:11:40.274 --> 00:11:42.854 but who is interested in viroids? 00:11:42.934 --> 00:11:45.194 This is such an esoteric effect. 00:11:45.394 --> 00:11:47.814 We don't know whether it even exists. Yeah. 00:11:48.434 --> 00:11:53.874 But for example, what people are interested, can you purify plasmids? 00:11:55.054 --> 00:12:00.514 That would be interesting. And we put plasmids on the column and it came out pure. 00:12:01.034 --> 00:12:04.914 Pure. and that was the reason why we started to work on plasmids. 00:12:06.694 --> 00:12:11.834 And then really I think that was about the time when we started about the company, 00:12:12.054 --> 00:12:18.274 what we could do with the company, purification of nucleic acid and diagnosis of nucleic acid. 00:12:18.454 --> 00:12:25.494 For example, at that time, PCR was not developed, so one had all these hybridization 00:12:25.494 --> 00:12:28.434 methods to find mutations and those things. 00:12:28.434 --> 00:12:34.534 But then we heard back, yeah, if you have an infectious agent and plasmid is 00:12:34.534 --> 00:12:39.554 in particular cases also an infectious agent, but only in a particular sense. 00:12:39.794 --> 00:12:43.754 And you put one plasmid on a column and then the next plasmid, 00:12:43.954 --> 00:12:46.834 the columns have a memory effect. 00:12:47.434 --> 00:12:54.214 And therefore, we said, OK, the column is not the right instrument. 00:12:54.574 --> 00:12:59.534 We have to use small kits, use it once and throw it away. And then you have 00:12:59.534 --> 00:13:00.954 no cross-contamination. 00:13:01.294 --> 00:13:06.874 And that was really the main invention of Chiagen. 00:13:07.674 --> 00:13:12.494 At that point, Diagen first and then Chiagen, that's not interesting right now. 00:13:12.894 --> 00:13:19.514 When Chiagen could sell a kit for a plasmid and the user takes the kit. 00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:26.920 He purifies his plasmid, and next day another one, or next hour another one, 00:13:27.040 --> 00:13:31.580 and there never cause contamination because he uses everything in U-column. 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:38.000 And that was when Kyagen started to sell worldwide the kits. 00:13:40.280 --> 00:13:45.660 And I was still involved in the company and we discussed a lot, 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.960 but at that time I was already 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.100 looking for the infectious protein which 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:55.600 is a new phenomenon yeah so 00:13:55.600 --> 00:14:02.040 now you have a little bit the idea how i came to the purification to the kids 00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:09.440 together with my co-operators i i never was alone the company colpania and carsten 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.280 hank and jürgen schumacher we were together four of us. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:26.160 We had several ideas, but the idea of the plasmid kit, use it once and throw it away. 00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:29.380 That is a good idea for microbiology. 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:35.840 And suddenly, and then I have to say, medical doctors could suddenly work in 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:41.960 molecular biology because they could purify their plasmids before you have to 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.300 use plasmids to do microbiology. 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:51.600 And before, purify the plasmid took nearly two days. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.260 And the medical doctor has no time, he has patients. 00:14:55.700 --> 00:14:58.500 And he does science in the evening with students. 00:14:59.797 --> 00:15:03.737 And therefore, with plasmid purification, there was no time left for that. 00:15:04.117 --> 00:15:11.057 And suddenly we gave him the tool at hand, so now you can work with plasmids. It fits your time scale. 00:15:11.997 --> 00:15:19.577 And then I think to describe the success of Chiragin is Chiragin brought the 00:15:19.577 --> 00:15:21.297 molecular biology to medicine. 00:15:22.497 --> 00:15:27.097 Before it was only in specialized laboratories, but then it could be done worldwide. 00:15:27.097 --> 00:15:29.857 We'll definitely get into the 00:15:29.857 --> 00:15:32.757 key again story but before that i have one more 00:15:32.757 --> 00:15:35.957 question because you have been the share of biophysics 00:15:35.957 --> 00:15:42.497 at heinrich heine university in düsseldorf from 1980 to 2007 that's 27 years 00:15:42.497 --> 00:15:47.117 that's quite a long time and an achievement but how could you just basically 00:15:47.117 --> 00:15:53.337 balance the the responsibilities you had from all the positions your research 00:15:53.337 --> 00:15:55.017 key again and so on and so forth. 00:15:56.137 --> 00:16:03.137 Did you develop special methodologies? At first, it was an outcome of our university research. 00:16:03.517 --> 00:16:09.437 So we did not research on the sideline. It was our main research. 00:16:12.077 --> 00:16:18.777 Viroids and to purify viroids. So nothing to do next to it, or we didn't, other things. 00:16:19.097 --> 00:16:24.977 And suddenly, and when this worked, Then we went out into the company, 00:16:25.177 --> 00:16:33.517 and then I could say, okay, I have all my lectures, everything in my institute, 00:16:33.977 --> 00:16:37.577 but this part is now taken over by the company. 00:16:37.897 --> 00:16:41.257 We had a lot of discussions, but we had it well separated. 00:16:42.277 --> 00:16:47.357 So the economic part was well separated from the university part. 00:16:47.357 --> 00:16:52.957 And I kept this up to the day of my retirement. 00:16:54.077 --> 00:16:56.817 In my head, of course, it was always combined. 00:16:58.285 --> 00:17:05.525 But the money and what was spent and the co-workers and so on, 00:17:05.605 --> 00:17:07.185 they were working either there or there. 00:17:07.465 --> 00:17:13.325 And if there was a combination, then it was declared and everything went fine, yeah. 00:17:13.965 --> 00:17:17.825 And you have to say in Germany, when we started the company, 00:17:18.065 --> 00:17:20.825 we had no Arbeitnehmer-Erfinder-Gesetz. Yes. 00:17:21.745 --> 00:17:27.585 Yeah. And that was very good. I told my chancellor, you see, 00:17:27.725 --> 00:17:32.425 I have to, I will set up a company next, is there any problem? 00:17:33.065 --> 00:17:37.425 He said, a company, you can do that on Saturday, and professor, 00:17:37.665 --> 00:17:40.625 you have from Monday to Friday. So I don't see any problem. 00:17:41.265 --> 00:17:46.185 And as long as you don't want to have money from me, anything is fine. 00:17:46.185 --> 00:17:51.985 But today, the universities would like to have a lot of money when you said 00:17:51.985 --> 00:17:56.985 have a company that is an enormous hurdle for small startups, I have to say. 00:17:57.105 --> 00:18:01.985 I'm working on that, that this situation has to improve. 00:18:04.125 --> 00:18:10.425 That's the law you're referring to is basically a law that regulates if one 00:18:10.425 --> 00:18:15.805 of your employees develops an invention during work, how do you process with it? 00:18:15.805 --> 00:18:19.605 What's the legal process to assign all the benefits. 00:18:21.025 --> 00:18:23.665 Before we get, and by the way, 00:18:23.945 --> 00:18:29.125 what you've been talking about, like having certain times for your research, 00:18:29.365 --> 00:18:32.785 for your institute, and certain times for your entrepreneurial work, 00:18:32.885 --> 00:18:36.185 I think that is a technique called today time boxing. 00:18:36.385 --> 00:18:42.365 You have certain times allocated to special duties, and you use them to the best of your abilities. 00:18:42.365 --> 00:18:46.405 Before we dive into the KIAGEN story, 00:18:46.685 --> 00:18:55.685 I'd love to hear from our audience if you could ask a biotech pioneer like Professor 00:18:55.685 --> 00:18:58.285 Riesner one question. What would it be? 00:18:58.545 --> 00:19:00.605 Drop your thoughts down here in the comments. 00:19:02.405 --> 00:19:07.945 In 1984, you co-founded KIAGEN with the doctoral students. 00:19:07.945 --> 00:19:13.325 What motivated you to the transitions from academia to entrepreneurship and 00:19:13.325 --> 00:19:17.765 how did your academic background influence the company's direction? 00:19:17.925 --> 00:19:23.525 I mean, we already know it is a application of your research, 00:19:23.525 --> 00:19:28.545 but I do believe you applied a few more things from your academic background 00:19:28.545 --> 00:19:29.765 into the company, right? 00:19:30.705 --> 00:19:34.525 Okay, I have to say that is a little bit in my personal mindset. 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:39.945 I never, I studied physics, atomic physics and biophysics, yeah? 00:19:40.545 --> 00:19:47.705 And then later on in my PhD work, I went more to biophysics or to pure biophysics. 00:19:47.925 --> 00:19:49.985 But I had always in mind, oh. 00:19:51.110 --> 00:19:54.690 Academic career is only one possibility for me. 00:19:54.850 --> 00:19:58.850 I can work with a company and anything else. 00:19:58.970 --> 00:20:04.010 I would always like to work scientifically, not only to sell things. 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:10.470 This is only a good profession to sell things. But I think I have to work in science, in research. 00:20:11.150 --> 00:20:18.770 But whether I will do that my life in academia or in a company, I was not fixed. 00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:28.510 That means I worked already on a patent before KayaGen, this patent was not 00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:34.870 very successful, that doesn't matter, but therefore I had always a look into that direction. 00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:41.590 And then there were these three students coming with me from Darmstadt Institute of Technology. 00:20:43.530 --> 00:20:48.370 We went together to Dusseldorf, and we discussed a lot, what could we do? 00:20:48.530 --> 00:20:52.510 And these younger people, they were, of course, not fixed to academia. 00:20:52.830 --> 00:20:56.510 I was at that time already a little bit more fixed to academia, 00:20:56.730 --> 00:20:58.630 but we discussed what can we do else? 00:20:58.850 --> 00:21:07.290 And where is our research good for? And so these ideas were generated. 00:21:08.430 --> 00:21:12.190 And there were no particular time boxes or so. 00:21:13.910 --> 00:21:19.350 You cannot box your brain into different sections. 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:28.370 But you have to control that the obligations to the university have to be fulfilled, 100%. 00:21:29.430 --> 00:21:36.910 And I never skipped a lecture for a discussion with the company, also not later, never. 00:21:37.190 --> 00:21:41.950 The company had to take care of my time box, not the other way around, 00:21:42.090 --> 00:21:44.670 which always worked pretty well, I have to say. 00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.670 And okay, what was next? 00:21:50.814 --> 00:21:54.294 Yeah, how I could separate that pretty well, yeah. 00:21:54.834 --> 00:22:00.054 And I think this came from the beginning, I say, for the company, 00:22:00.054 --> 00:22:03.554 I'm advisor, but I never went to the management. 00:22:03.914 --> 00:22:11.274 And that was the main point. My three students, they established the management. 00:22:12.054 --> 00:22:18.014 I was on the advisory board, advisory job, yeah. And therefore, 00:22:18.174 --> 00:22:20.014 we had a clear separation. 00:22:21.114 --> 00:22:31.234 And I would tell all the younger people, do this separation as soon as you can do it. 00:22:31.814 --> 00:22:34.514 Otherwise, you have only trouble. 00:22:35.374 --> 00:22:42.334 And therefore, I never had trouble with the university because everything was fulfilled. 00:22:42.574 --> 00:22:48.134 And the other point is, there were not only the three students. 00:22:48.774 --> 00:22:54.814 As a university professor if you like to do research you never can do it alone 00:22:54.814 --> 00:22:57.814 you can do it only with the best of the students, 00:22:58.774 --> 00:23:05.054 and therefore I had to give very good lectures I feel maybe I'm a little bit 00:23:05.054 --> 00:23:11.554 superstitious but I think I gave good lectures to attract good students and 00:23:11.554 --> 00:23:16.814 then you can do good research at the university if you say I do research 00:23:16.914 --> 00:23:19.834 and lectures are a little bit, take a lot, too much time, 00:23:20.514 --> 00:23:22.074 wrong, completely wrong, yeah? 00:23:22.634 --> 00:23:26.894 The other way around. Good lectures bring you the best students and with them 00:23:26.894 --> 00:23:30.434 you can do good research. 00:23:30.814 --> 00:23:36.814 And this went through my whole 26 years on the University of Düsseldorf, yeah? 00:23:36.894 --> 00:23:39.454 It started in Darmstadt, it started in Darmstadt, I have to say. 00:23:40.587 --> 00:23:45.947 And for everybody who doesn't have an academic biotech background, 00:23:46.247 --> 00:23:53.307 I'll link a lot of Wikipedia articles, prions, plasmid, virons, and so on and so forth. 00:23:53.507 --> 00:23:57.607 Of course, TU Darmstadt as well as the Heinrich Heine University, 00:23:57.627 --> 00:24:01.187 of course, so everybody can learn a little bit more there. 00:24:01.547 --> 00:24:03.547 We already talked about Kiagen. 00:24:03.927 --> 00:24:07.947 There was like a different name in the beginning. That's why you're talking 00:24:07.947 --> 00:24:09.627 about Kiagen and Kiagen. 00:24:10.327 --> 00:24:17.287 But the entity, that was a spin-off, one of the first biotech spin-offs from a German university. 00:24:17.527 --> 00:24:23.107 As you said, there was not the law that regulates what happens if one of your 00:24:23.107 --> 00:24:24.887 employees invent something. 00:24:25.107 --> 00:24:29.947 But I'm sure you also encountered different hurdles. 00:24:30.247 --> 00:24:34.847 Plus, there was a very interesting story you have in your book. 00:24:34.927 --> 00:24:40.227 By the way, you wrote a book about your experiences. unfortunately it's already sold out but I do have, 00:24:41.527 --> 00:24:46.007 one physical example here from you thank you very much for that for people who 00:24:46.007 --> 00:24:47.947 are really interested in the book 00:24:47.947 --> 00:24:54.667 I have a lot of issues at home if they write to me I send them an issue. 00:24:56.447 --> 00:25:02.387 Ok and my question would be what hurdles did you face there because I remember 00:25:02.387 --> 00:25:05.487 from the book you came to Dusseldorf they said ok what are you going to bring 00:25:05.487 --> 00:25:09.987 to us And then you said, OK, we do already have an idea for a company. 00:25:10.287 --> 00:25:16.027 And I do remember that the Sparkasse, the thrift organization of Düsseldorf, 00:25:16.187 --> 00:25:17.747 was quite helpful there. 00:25:18.107 --> 00:25:22.047 Can you talk about a few other hurdles and, of course, the story of Düsseldorf? 00:25:22.167 --> 00:25:27.047 Because when I remember this correctly, there was a great investment for the local organization. 00:25:27.767 --> 00:25:29.567 Yeah, they were not alone. 00:25:30.347 --> 00:25:36.487 First, we had another, the owner of another company who was interested in the technology. 00:25:36.847 --> 00:25:39.067 Later on, we had a lot of problems with him. 00:25:39.807 --> 00:25:47.407 And the Sparkasse, there was a particular opinion in the Sparkasse. 00:25:47.647 --> 00:25:54.327 What can we do with the university together to improve the economy in Düsseldorf? 00:25:54.967 --> 00:25:56.567 And there we had a discussion. 00:25:57.827 --> 00:26:04.487 And the discussion was in that way, it's okay, we have to talk, 00:26:04.647 --> 00:26:07.467 but not much will come out. 00:26:07.767 --> 00:26:13.287 And then suddenly I said to the president of the Sparkasse, yeah, 00:26:13.407 --> 00:26:17.627 we have the plans for a company in the desk. 00:26:18.067 --> 00:26:19.827 And he said, what do you need? 00:26:20.507 --> 00:26:26.867 We said, 10 million. And he said, right away, I work on that to get the money. 00:26:26.867 --> 00:26:28.347 That we will get the money. 00:26:28.547 --> 00:26:31.407 So that was in a minute, this decision. 00:26:31.687 --> 00:26:35.607 And that, okay, if we have that support, then we can start. 00:26:35.847 --> 00:26:40.447 And then with the Sparkasse, when you have such an inventor, 00:26:40.727 --> 00:26:42.987 investor, he did not give 10 millions. 00:26:43.367 --> 00:26:47.567 Over the time, he gave 6 millions over the time. 00:26:47.787 --> 00:26:54.827 But he got back 240 millions later, to tell you the relationship. 00:26:54.827 --> 00:26:59.787 But then there was another venture capitalist, 00:27:00.087 --> 00:27:10.207 TVN in Munich, they got involved and I think then the government, 00:27:10.567 --> 00:27:12.727 the North Rhein-Westphalian government said, okay, 00:27:13.167 --> 00:27:16.487 we can support that. Let's see what's coming out. 00:27:17.547 --> 00:27:26.307 It's new that we support the start-up from the university. And then by recommendation 00:27:26.307 --> 00:27:30.487 of Charles Weisman from Zürich, there was Moshe Alafi got interested. 00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:37.060 In California, he had, for example, started Applied Biosystems, 00:27:37.060 --> 00:27:39.620 a very successful company. 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.680 And we met with him and we told him what we are doing and so on. 00:27:45.120 --> 00:27:50.000 And he took a sheet of paper and wrote down one million investment. 00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:59.080 So this was really decisions on the point, I have to say. Yeah. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:07.040 And he and Moshalafi, I have to say, he looked to the young people in the company, 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:09.140 not to me, to the young people. 00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:13.760 What do they do? Is there fire in these people? 00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:17.900 And he had the right judgment and therefore he gave the money. 00:28:18.220 --> 00:28:22.060 And so these hurdles were so then we had the money to start. 00:28:22.800 --> 00:28:26.000 And then the problem was a laboratory. 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:33.320 I have to say in there is always an intermediate time where the laboratory is 00:28:33.320 --> 00:28:37.900 still in the university, but as soon as possible out of the university. 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.760 Have your own laboratories, yeah. Then it's a clear cut. 00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:44.320 And this took some time. 00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:51.640 And later on there was a company, Henkel in Düsseldorf, who had. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:01.920 A level in a building with empty laboratories, which we could rebuild for our work, yeah. 00:29:02.120 --> 00:29:05.720 And so we started there, and later on, of course, it was too small, 00:29:05.800 --> 00:29:09.340 and we had to build our own, and so on, and so on, yeah. 00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:14.580 But these were the hurdles a little bit. The money first, one has to have good 00:29:14.580 --> 00:29:16.160 connections to get the money, yeah. 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:26.960 And then the laboratory space So what was no hurdle, what was our starting capital, 00:29:27.320 --> 00:29:31.180 so the idea and the people and the mood of the people, yeah. 00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:41.400 That was our capital and the money and the laboratory space we had to acquire, to say that. 00:29:41.580 --> 00:29:46.460 As we said, with KIA again, the kickoff, as you already mentioned, 00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:52.960 was a two-part single-use plastic system for nucleate acid extraction. 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.880 That was a game changer, obviously. 00:29:55.800 --> 00:30:00.560 You already talked about the innovation process behind this product, 00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:08.440 and you said normal doctors became part or could do biological research with that. 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:16.560 I also remember that you have been hired in terms of the woods in Germany, 00:30:16.860 --> 00:30:22.380 Dyeing, Waldstäben, to also do some research there where you apply to your research. 00:30:23.340 --> 00:30:29.200 Yeah, the Waldsterben, that was the funny thing, I have to say, 00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:33.600 even people thought, oh, in two years there is no single tree in Germany. 00:30:33.860 --> 00:30:39.740 If you listen to the press, yeah, then there was meaning in two years there 00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:41.160 is no single tree in Germany. 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:46.160 We never thought that it was so serious, but we developed tests and we used 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:52.060 again our methodological and our knowledge on RNA aid technology. 00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:57.520 And then we developed those tests and we published it. 00:30:58.260 --> 00:31:06.300 And of course, it was interesting even for investors, but this was not really part of the business. 00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:08.860 It was besides the business. 00:31:09.600 --> 00:31:13.540 It was good for our technology training, I have to say. 00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:25.000 And for example, it was very good at that time, one could get good grants for Waldsterben. 00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:29.520 And that was good for my laboratory, I could buy new instruments, 00:31:29.800 --> 00:31:36.520 and these instruments were of course used for other experiments, 00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:38.240 not only for Waldsterben. Yeah. 00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:44.960 And therefore, and you know, Waldsterben in Germany stopped at a particular date. 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.800 And on one day, Waldsterben stopped. Do you know that? 00:31:49.644 --> 00:31:54.544 No no but but i vividly remember when i was a small kid i remembered coverage 00:31:54.544 --> 00:32:02.744 everywhere in the press in the news bald stem the woods are dying in germany due to um um, 00:32:03.324 --> 00:32:10.784 and then there probably came the catastrophe of the atomic mile in chernobyl 00:32:10.784 --> 00:32:19.964 and on the day of the press moved to Chernobyl and Waldsterben was forgotten it was, 00:32:20.764 --> 00:32:25.644 funny I say that was the end of the Waldsterben in Germany, 00:32:25.904 --> 00:32:33.224 the catastrophe of Chernobyl but naja so we have not to discuss further Waldsterben 00:32:33.224 --> 00:32:39.804 Waldsterben was an episode it was a scientific interesting episode when I later 00:32:39.804 --> 00:32:42.844 met somebody from the minister who gave us money. 00:32:44.364 --> 00:32:47.424 And I asked him what is the outcome of the 00:32:47.424 --> 00:32:51.424 Waldsterben and he said there is a lot of outcome because 00:32:51.424 --> 00:32:54.164 the Waldsterben gave the money and 00:32:54.164 --> 00:32:58.084 now we have forest science before we 00:32:58.084 --> 00:33:03.464 had in universities only forest economy and since the time of Waldsterben we 00:33:03.464 --> 00:33:09.704 have a forest science in good universities so I did not look at that because 00:33:09.704 --> 00:33:16.844 we did not believe then forest science But that was an outcome which one should not estimate too small, 00:33:17.044 --> 00:33:20.604 that we have in Germany now a good forest science. Yeah. 00:33:21.344 --> 00:33:23.384 Okay. So far to Waldstern. 00:33:26.304 --> 00:33:33.344 Jumping forward a few years in 1996, you were the first company to be listed on Nasdaq. 00:33:33.504 --> 00:33:37.584 As we've already discussed, you were co-founder, you were advisor. 00:33:37.804 --> 00:33:41.024 Have you been at this time on the supervisory board of Kia Gin? 00:33:42.128 --> 00:33:47.008 Yeah, but I was not the chairman of the supervisory board. 00:33:47.148 --> 00:33:55.188 The chairman was at that time a very well-known banker, Carsten Peter Clausen. 00:33:57.608 --> 00:34:04.648 And he was with the beginning. He helped us a lot with financial difficulty 00:34:04.648 --> 00:34:08.628 situation, yeah, situations. And then we were happy. 00:34:08.848 --> 00:34:11.708 He really guided the tour to the NASDAQ. 00:34:12.128 --> 00:34:22.788 Together with Goldman Sachs. 00:34:23.748 --> 00:34:27.528 Anyway I think the best underwriter you could get at that time. 00:34:28.228 --> 00:34:36.248 And later on, when Professor Clausen reached his age of 72, 00:34:36.248 --> 00:34:39.968 he had to leave the board and i 00:34:39.968 --> 00:34:43.768 followed him as a chairman yeah i would 00:34:43.768 --> 00:34:46.948 be interested you've been there the first company 00:34:46.948 --> 00:34:49.748 before we get to that 00:34:49.748 --> 00:34:53.068 how because i do understand there 00:34:53.068 --> 00:34:59.228 are two people that helped you to get listed on nasdaq but i was i was wondering 00:34:59.228 --> 00:35:03.308 what went through your mind when you met at the company and at the first time 00:35:03.308 --> 00:35:07.348 somebody said oh guys uh you're here in germany but let's go over to new york 00:35:07.348 --> 00:35:10.988 city and list your nasdaq what were your first thought about that, 00:35:11.928 --> 00:35:20.668 now yeah we had a good people who were good consultants yeah the and our our investors, 00:35:21.208 --> 00:35:27.308 they knew how to do those things and nasdaq they said the nasdaq is america 00:35:27.308 --> 00:35:33.588 and there's the most money which they will buy shares and the share price can then increase. 00:35:34.668 --> 00:35:43.528 In Germany, we had only the normal Börse, but we were too small to go to the 00:35:43.528 --> 00:35:49.168 German Börse and the small Börse came later in Germany. 00:35:50.048 --> 00:35:58.568 And therefore, we had to set over the company of KayaGen in holding, 00:35:59.588 --> 00:36:06.248 in Namen Lose Vernotschap, that was a Dutch holding of the company, 00:36:06.468 --> 00:36:11.168 and we went to the Nasdaq with the Namen Lose Vernotschap. 00:36:13.132 --> 00:36:17.692 And they knew how to work with Nasdaq. In German, the German companies, 00:36:17.692 --> 00:36:20.392 they could not go to Nasdaq at that time, yeah? 00:36:21.532 --> 00:36:28.572 Whether there were fiscal improvements, that was not my business in the company, yeah? 00:36:29.052 --> 00:36:35.332 But we knew with the Namenloser Vernotchapp and with it being public, 00:36:36.232 --> 00:36:39.092 we could collect more money. 00:36:39.592 --> 00:36:44.572 That is, yeah. And we could grow in Hilden, 00:36:44.772 --> 00:36:50.872 near Düsseldorf, because we had no money, more money, and then we started the 00:36:50.872 --> 00:36:55.332 whole diagnostic part of the company. 00:36:55.912 --> 00:37:00.972 Before, we were really the purification company, and then we had the purification 00:37:00.972 --> 00:37:05.232 technology and the nucleic ethic diagnostic part. 00:37:05.532 --> 00:37:09.352 And that was only with the money of the IPO. 00:37:10.452 --> 00:37:17.212 I see. And the Namlose Vermotrapp is basically the key again N.V. 00:37:17.372 --> 00:37:21.132 Many people would have come by a Dutch company called N.V. 00:37:21.272 --> 00:37:24.252 Also there that is just a legal form. 00:37:24.372 --> 00:37:28.532 So basically you moved your entity to the Netherlands and there you could so 00:37:28.532 --> 00:37:30.232 you could list on Nasdaq. 00:37:30.232 --> 00:37:37.112 Yeah, but entity, the whole thing, that means in later time, 00:37:37.272 --> 00:37:42.812 we were 50 people in the Netherlands, but 1,500 in Düsseldorf, yeah. 00:37:43.392 --> 00:37:46.952 That is the ratio about. I see. 00:37:48.072 --> 00:37:54.592 Have you any story about being the first company to be listed on Nasdaq? 00:37:54.592 --> 00:37:58.732 How were you perceived in Germany and in the US? 00:37:58.892 --> 00:38:05.172 I could imagine in the US it was no news. But how did people react here in Germany about your listing? 00:38:05.712 --> 00:38:08.212 Oh, this is hard to remember how they react. 00:38:09.531 --> 00:38:14.971 You see, during the first years when we had the company, my colleagues were 00:38:14.971 --> 00:38:16.791 always friendly, I have to say that. 00:38:17.671 --> 00:38:22.511 Sometimes they were friendly to me, but in the backyard of their brain, 00:38:22.651 --> 00:38:27.011 they thought that it will not take long and he will come down again. 00:38:28.791 --> 00:38:38.391 But they never said to me. They were only friendly to me. And then, 00:38:38.611 --> 00:38:43.471 of course, there was really, I have to say, then probably there was admiration. 00:38:44.031 --> 00:38:51.551 When we said we could develop the company, now we are on IPO and the company 00:38:51.551 --> 00:38:57.511 is very close to several hundred million value. 00:38:57.511 --> 00:39:01.331 Yeah, then there was a say, then a lot of people said, okay, 00:39:02.031 --> 00:39:03.411 that is really a success. 00:39:03.771 --> 00:39:08.611 And some colleagues told me, you know, for molecular biology, 00:39:08.931 --> 00:39:15.091 I know much more than you, Detlef Riesner, but you did it. And I was afraid to do it. 00:39:15.791 --> 00:39:23.371 So there was this open admiration. They said, you did it. And therefore you were successful. 00:39:24.391 --> 00:39:32.531 And then after IPO, the stock went up and then went down and went up and down. That is normal. 00:39:32.771 --> 00:39:40.691 And then the biotechnology bubble was bursting in the beginning of 2000. 00:39:41.331 --> 00:39:47.251 But the company, of course, the company went on and they earned money already. 00:39:48.731 --> 00:39:55.051 These are two independent things. The revenues of the company and the value as a stock market. 00:39:55.531 --> 00:39:57.971 Sometimes they are completely decoupled. 00:39:59.691 --> 00:40:04.011 Thanks, Scott. They are decoupled. And Kia again went on and, 00:40:04.151 --> 00:40:06.431 of course, recovered from the low stock price. 00:40:06.631 --> 00:40:11.631 Hey, guys. This is Joe from startup.io. At the time when I'm reviewing my interview 00:40:11.631 --> 00:40:13.011 with Professor Reisner, 00:40:13.751 --> 00:40:19.911 I have noticed that's almost 1 hour and 20 minutes since we try to keep our 00:40:19.911 --> 00:40:21.711 content to a certain length. 00:40:21.891 --> 00:40:27.051 This is now the point where we'll cut this a little bit and go into episode 00:40:27.051 --> 00:40:28.851 number two published tomorrow. 00:40:34.011 --> 00:40:43.391 That's all, folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io. 00:40:43.731 --> 00:40:45.911 Remember, sharing is caring. 00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:59.455 Music.