Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 388: Can Clones Be Jedi?

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Issue 388: Can Clones Be Jedi? · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
0:06
Speaker 2: Hi. This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:10
Speaker 2: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
0:14
Speaker 2: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:23
Speaker 1: We welcome you back to Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars
0:27
Speaker 1: podcast here on the Nerd Party Network that explores all
0:30
Speaker 1: of the different regions and nooks and crannies and whatever
0:33
Speaker 1: else you want to call a crevis in a galactic map.
0:36
Speaker 1: I am one of your hosts, Jedi Master John Mills,
0:39
Speaker 1: and I'm joined once again by my dear friend, Jedi
0:42
Speaker 1: Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, I have a surprise topic for you.
0:46
Speaker 1: The listeners of this show are big fans of the
0:49
Speaker 1: surprise topics, and I want to know, are you well.
0:52
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of you stopping getting us caught
0:56
Speaker 3: in the crevice of another spaceworm. So can you please
1:02
Speaker 3: can we please stop exploring those crevices because the mine
1:05
Speaker 3: ox in here keep eating the power cables on our
1:08
Speaker 3: ship and I'm really frustrated, and so yes, fire away
1:12
Speaker 3: with your surprise topic, but can we just get out
1:15
Speaker 3: of here.
1:16
Speaker 1: We can get out of here, but on the condition
1:18
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Speaker 1: at the Jedi Masters on ex Twitter, the Nerd Party
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Speaker 1: on Facebook and Instagram, and at Join nerd Party on
1:35
Speaker 1: ex Twitter. So here's the surprise topic. As everybody knows,
1:39
Speaker 1: my youngest loves Rebels. Chopper is her favorite droid, and
1:43
Speaker 1: I think maybe Chopper might be mine too. So the
1:47
Speaker 1: next logical step was, well, you know, there's a delightful
1:50
Speaker 1: little show called The Clone Wars. You want to give
1:52
Speaker 1: that a try, And we've been easing into it and
1:54
Speaker 1: she's been taking to it, and like all sane and
1:58
Speaker 1: rational people, we jump around watched the episodes in a
2:01
Speaker 1: jumble as they were released, and we very recently got
2:05
Speaker 1: to the first aired episode, Ambush, featuring Yoda and the
2:09
Speaker 1: three Clones battling the Droid Army to try to get
2:12
Speaker 1: to King Katunko of the toy Darians. At one point
2:16
Speaker 1: during that show, Yoda sits down, has the Clones take
2:19
Speaker 1: off their helmets and says to them, you think you
2:23
Speaker 1: look the same, But in the Force. Everybody is their
2:26
Speaker 1: own person, and it made me think for a second.
2:32
Speaker 1: George Lucas himself said Midchlorians alone were not the determinant
2:36
Speaker 1: factor of whether you were a Jedi. People misinterpreted Midchlorians
2:41
Speaker 1: that think you had to have a certain score like
2:42
Speaker 1: an sat to become a Jedi. He's like, no, anybody
2:45
Speaker 1: can become a Jedi. It's just easier for some people
2:48
Speaker 1: than others. And of course, you know, the Mediclorians are
2:51
Speaker 1: also a vehicle for talking about the prophecy conceived by
2:54
Speaker 1: the Force, that sort of thing. So I was thinking
2:56
Speaker 1: to myself, if that's so, if all living beings have
2:59
Speaker 1: the Force in them, is it possible that a clone
3:03
Speaker 1: of their own accord could become a Jedi.
3:07
Speaker 3: I think that's a really interesting question. You know, it
3:11
Speaker 3: makes me think of then, you know, you would kind
3:15
Speaker 3: of look to a Jango fet as because you know,
3:22
Speaker 3: all their DNA comes from him, and and they're all
3:24
Speaker 3: clones of him, and of course even you know they're
3:28
Speaker 3: they're augmented by the Caminoans. But you know, whether or
3:34
Speaker 3: not Django kind of ever exhibited any forced sensitivity, you know,
3:41
Speaker 3: And yes, you know, George talks about the idea that yes,
3:45
Speaker 3: you know, if you really put in enough dedication, you
3:50
Speaker 3: could become some semblance of a Jedi.
3:52
Speaker 1: Right.
3:53
Speaker 3: You may never be the world's strongest Jedi, you could
3:56
Speaker 3: probably do it. I think we see that kind of
3:59
Speaker 3: play out in the Ahsoka series with Sabine and her journey.
4:05
Speaker 3: The hard thing about this, though, is is that you know,
4:08
Speaker 3: I think a clone would have been had to have
4:13
Speaker 3: been given the time and the place to even try that.
4:17
Speaker 3: And you know, as watching as we watched through the
4:20
Speaker 3: Clone Wars, you get the episodes that there's very few
4:22
Speaker 3: of them where clones don't just do the job that
4:26
Speaker 3: they're given, you know, because they are so programmed. You
4:32
Speaker 3: get the deserter where that happens.
4:34
Speaker 1: And so.
4:37
Speaker 3: I wonder if, because of the augmentation for personality that
4:43
Speaker 3: was given to the clones, if that wouldn't have made
4:47
Speaker 3: it very very, very difficult, nine near impossible for a
4:52
Speaker 3: Clone to kind of reach out in that way, because
5:00
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have even just had to desire. And that
5:07
Speaker 3: seems like that would be the first step towards that
5:10
Speaker 3: very long journey of somebody working towards being a Jedi
5:15
Speaker 3: in the first place.
5:16
Speaker 1: Sure, I agree that it's a question of perception. Where
5:21
Speaker 1: the clones are raised, they're given subliminal messaging from inside
5:28
Speaker 1: the Kresh, they are continually bombarded with lessons, they're growth accelerated,
5:33
Speaker 1: they're all of these things. They are conditioned. They are
5:37
Speaker 1: born to kill and serve the Republic. But within that
5:43
Speaker 1: question of will, there's still the capability. And I would
5:47
Speaker 1: point to actually, I'll bring it back to Jango fet
5:53
Speaker 1: what do we see that's a core difference between Django
5:57
Speaker 1: and obi Wan. For instance, in episode two, obi Wan
6:00
Speaker 1: flies with a droid to get you know, and he
6:02
Speaker 1: has now, yes, I know that there's a functional aspect
6:06
Speaker 1: of it. He needs somebody to talk to, so he's
6:08
Speaker 1: not just talking to himself while he's flying the fighter.
6:10
Speaker 1: All of that stuff, say take that out of it.
6:13
Speaker 1: Django flies through the rings above Geonosis on his own,
6:20
Speaker 1: whereas obi Wan says flying is for droids, not because
6:25
Speaker 1: Jedi can't fly, but even they have a little droid
6:28
Speaker 1: copilot that goes with them. Jango has a natural aptitude
6:32
Speaker 1: and so my counter would be a hunting like Han
6:36
Speaker 1: Solo does. But that even speaks to a mindset thing.
6:41
Speaker 1: It's that inculcation of the clones are raised to be
6:44
Speaker 1: very materialist. I concede that point, but you could if
6:49
Speaker 1: you found one like the Deserter who is more open
6:54
Speaker 1: to the idea of a different type of life and mindset.
6:58
Speaker 1: I think it's possible that you could have somebody trained up.
7:01
Speaker 1: I agree they'll never be Anakin Skywalker, but considering Jedi,
7:07
Speaker 1: according to the lure established by Lucas himself as well,
7:11
Speaker 1: the Jedi existed before knowledge of the Medichlorians even existed.
7:15
Speaker 1: It was a monastic order, it was a lifestyle. It
7:18
Speaker 1: was a communing with the force sort of thing, as
7:23
Speaker 1: opposed to the warriors that we encounter near the end
7:27
Speaker 1: of the Golden Age in the prequels.
7:31
Speaker 3: Another question that I would think might have an implication
7:36
Speaker 3: on whether or not this would be possible. I immediately
7:41
Speaker 3: think of the idea of does the growth acceleration that
7:47
Speaker 3: all clones are given do something to their physiology which
7:51
Speaker 3: would also make this more difficult for them, because it's
7:55
Speaker 3: not a truly natural in the same way in which
8:02
Speaker 3: you know, we know Anakin Skywalker was never as strong
8:06
Speaker 3: as he was beforehand because he had started to lose
8:10
Speaker 3: parts of his body when you know he had the
8:14
Speaker 3: fight with Obu and Kenobi and what that did to him.
8:17
Speaker 3: And so because of that that natural connection to the
8:21
Speaker 3: force being about one's actual natural nature, does this type
8:29
Speaker 3: of manipulation have an impact on the relationship between you know,
8:35
Speaker 3: any minicolorians a person would have in the first place,
8:38
Speaker 3: and then therefore their connection with the force.
8:42
Speaker 1: I like where you're going with that. I think that
8:45
Speaker 1: that growth acceleration would have a huge impact on how old,
8:53
Speaker 1: quote unquote would a clone have to be in order
8:55
Speaker 1: to even be open to this. So let me build
8:59
Speaker 1: on what you're saying. Is saying a clone say episode
9:02
Speaker 1: two era that comes out of the batch, No, I
9:05
Speaker 1: don't think there's any chance. Their growth acceleration, combined with
9:10
Speaker 1: their training, probably stunts their mental development in the sense
9:17
Speaker 1: that they think a certain way and they don't have
9:21
Speaker 1: life like they're intelligent and they're creative thinkers, but they're
9:24
Speaker 1: creative thinkers within a certain problem solving mindset. But then
9:30
Speaker 1: if you go down the line and you encounter somebody,
9:34
Speaker 1: say one of the Batcher's or later on Rex after
9:39
Speaker 1: the Clone wars are done, those are clones who have
9:42
Speaker 1: had enough of an emotional and developmental arc to have
9:47
Speaker 1: their those centers of their brains fully mature to the
9:52
Speaker 1: point where they could consider the possibility of training. You know,
10:00
Speaker 1: but there could be clones the same age that wouldn't
10:04
Speaker 1: be able to do that because they just never got
10:06
Speaker 1: to that point. Like I would argue, you could say
10:09
Speaker 1: Rex yes, Cody no, because you look at where they
10:13
Speaker 1: are in their development. Cody's able to follow Order sixty
10:17
Speaker 1: six without without even blinking. Rex shows that development because
10:23
Speaker 1: he's able to understand something's happening that he doesn't want
10:27
Speaker 1: to do. So you have right there. Actually, if you
10:30
Speaker 1: watch Episode three and The Phantom Apprentice side by side,
10:34
Speaker 1: you see two clones of similar age and experience reacting
10:39
Speaker 1: differently to Order sixty six.
10:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I think a big part of that,
10:45
Speaker 3: you know, it seems to come down to the Rex
10:48
Speaker 3: is with obi Wan and Anakin for so long and
10:52
Speaker 3: in their orbit, and then of course with Ahsoka. You know,
10:57
Speaker 3: Cody seems to be a slight the newer addition to
11:02
Speaker 3: obi Wan to orbit and therefore not quite as he
11:10
Speaker 3: hasn't had the impact on the relationship. You know. One
11:12
Speaker 3: of the things we've always seen is the way in
11:15
Speaker 3: which the clones became more than just an automaton basically
11:22
Speaker 3: programmed because of their relationship with the Jedi, and so
11:28
Speaker 3: in that I think though, that's the thing that would
11:32
Speaker 3: have opened up a clone to the possibility of Jedi
11:36
Speaker 3: training at all. And yet because in some ways that
11:43
Speaker 3: is the relationship between and this is I think what
11:48
Speaker 3: really came down to, that relationship between that trinity of Anakin,
11:51
Speaker 3: Obi Wan and Ahsoka. You know, they have such an
11:55
Speaker 3: impact on those clones that are in their orbit because
11:59
Speaker 3: I think they just kind of rightly show and they're
12:06
Speaker 3: all willing to treat the clones like Yoda did right
12:10
Speaker 3: with an ambush with those clones that there are more
12:13
Speaker 3: than meets the eye in some ways. And it seems
12:20
Speaker 3: like a lot of the other Jedi that they were
12:24
Speaker 3: not as close to their clones and and they weren't
12:27
Speaker 3: me into their clones or bad to their clones or whatever,
12:30
Speaker 3: but they're there didn't seem to be that personality that
12:34
Speaker 3: was given to them in that way. Uh, And so
12:38
Speaker 3: I could really see somebody like a Rex, you know,
12:43
Speaker 3: growing into that if there had been more time, you know.
12:48
Speaker 3: And and yet, you know, I think we can look
12:52
Speaker 3: at Sabine as a good example of how difficult. This
12:57
Speaker 3: is for somebody who is not what we would consider
13:01
Speaker 3: classically for sensitive, right, right, and the difficulty and the
13:08
Speaker 3: absolute dedication and focus that it takes, you know, it's
13:18
Speaker 3: it's akin to I feel like, you can become an
13:22
Speaker 3: incredible You can become a good basketball player, right if
13:27
Speaker 3: you really dedicate yourself to it. But there's also those
13:31
Speaker 3: people who just have that natural proclivity that also then
13:35
Speaker 3: dedicate themselves and they become masters of it. And that
13:38
Speaker 3: seems to be very much what we're kind of talking
13:43
Speaker 3: about with this idea of what whether or not a
13:46
Speaker 3: clone trooper could could become a Jedi in any way,
13:50
Speaker 3: shape or form. They're probably those people who basically, when
13:56
Speaker 3: it comes to the force, they've been delta pair of threes,
14:00
Speaker 3: and you know, Anakin has been dealt to pair of
14:04
Speaker 3: aces right when it comes to for sensitivity, And so
14:10
Speaker 3: each one, if applying themselves, could become a Jedi, but
14:15
Speaker 3: it's definitely going to be a much more difficult road
14:18
Speaker 3: for the person who's dealt pair threes.
14:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, the thing is, as we
14:25
Speaker 1: sit here and we talk about it, you know, obviously
14:27
Speaker 1: we agree. Yeah, you know, under the right circumstances, right application,
14:31
Speaker 1: right work at it. We also know that midichlorian levels
14:37
Speaker 1: can't be directly manipulated. They're resistant to it. There's a
14:41
Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of subtle exploration in The
14:44
Speaker 1: Bad Batch, which will I expect play into all of
14:49
Speaker 1: our speculations about how Palpatine was engineering his own shot
14:54
Speaker 1: at immortality inspired by things like Dark Empire. Yeah.
15:02
Speaker 3: Well, excuse me for interrupting, but Omega is a an
15:08
Speaker 3: example of somebody that we know to be more for
15:14
Speaker 3: sensitive than than other clones. Right there, there's that hint
15:18
Speaker 3: in the series that it would be.
15:22
Speaker 1: More open to the experimentation.
15:25
Speaker 3: Just what made her incredibly special?
15:28
Speaker 1: And we know that Grogu somehow tied into maff Gideon's
15:32
Speaker 1: experiments to try to make clones of himself that were
15:35
Speaker 1: exactly Yeah.
15:36
Speaker 3: So, I mean I think there was something about Omega
15:41
Speaker 3: that had it had gotten close, it had gotten much
15:45
Speaker 3: closer than than Palpatine had ever been before. And I
15:48
Speaker 3: think that's a really interesting, uh thing. And and I
15:52
Speaker 3: what what it means for me is I think I
15:56
Speaker 3: want more about Omega as a character because I feel like, oh, yes,
16:03
Speaker 3: you know, she really truly is in some ways an
16:06
Speaker 3: answer to a lot of these questions that we have
16:11
Speaker 3: about the ability of clones and therefore sensitivity and what
16:17
Speaker 3: could happen. And something about her in the cloning process
16:26
Speaker 3: allowed her to have a better reception to the force.
16:30
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know if somebody was holding her
16:32
Speaker 3: antennas or something while she was being cloned, but her
16:36
Speaker 3: reception was definitely better.
16:38
Speaker 1: Well, I think that with Omega it does. What's so
16:44
Speaker 1: fascinating is, you know, we switch into Omega. You're right,
16:47
Speaker 1: there's the whole cloning aspect of that, and the fact
16:50
Speaker 1: that she was cloned with the idea that the Caminoans
16:53
Speaker 1: would be able to use her as leverage with the Emperor.
16:57
Speaker 1: Of course, right, that never works out right. But while
16:59
Speaker 1: you're talking about that, of course I want more Omega stories.
17:03
Speaker 1: I need more Omega stories in my life. I do.
17:06
Speaker 1: I would be happy as a pig and slop if
17:13
Speaker 1: they were to say, oh, you know what new limited
17:15
Speaker 1: series with Omega, or like, oh yea Omega is going
17:18
Speaker 1: to show up in a Sosoca season too, I'd be like,
17:19
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, yes, yeah, but yeah, I'm also thinking
17:23
Speaker 1: now and I know this is going down the rabbit hole,
17:26
Speaker 1: but this, this is what you triggered in my brain.
17:27
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be so cool? Also because we know that
17:30
Speaker 1: a lot of this the cloning and Omega and all
17:34
Speaker 1: in this discussion about how receptive clones could be to
17:37
Speaker 1: force training and stuff like that. Wouldn't it be so
17:40
Speaker 1: interesting to have a series? You could make a really
17:43
Speaker 1: spooky Star Wars series, make it animated, to make a
17:46
Speaker 1: live action, whatever you want to do. And what it
17:49
Speaker 1: is is it's almost like a Twilight Zone type of thing.
17:53
Speaker 1: But the tying thread is that somehow, you know, you
17:56
Speaker 1: communicate to the audience that Palpatines rip on the material
18:01
Speaker 1: world is is extended through these whether it's clones, whether
18:09
Speaker 1: it's something else. These clones and artifacts and stuff like
18:12
Speaker 1: that that keep him going, and it's like it's like
18:16
Speaker 1: it can it. He can possess somebody for a short
18:19
Speaker 1: amount of time, but then he loses it and it's
18:22
Speaker 1: like it's it's this like wouldn't that be like a
18:26
Speaker 1: great like ten episode series. But along the way he
18:29
Speaker 1: could find an old clone who has been decommissioned and
18:35
Speaker 1: has gone off, and it is like fine, I'm just
18:36
Speaker 1: I'm done with everything. I'm gonna go off nowhere and
18:39
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden his life gets subsumed by
18:44
Speaker 1: you know, Palpatine sidious spirit. Yeah, and it we get
18:48
Speaker 1: even more you know, more background to that, you know.
18:53
Speaker 3: So you know, I think we talked about here on
18:56
Speaker 3: the show that that Darth Vader comics series, uh, and
19:01
Speaker 3: the artifact with Old exactly, and and so that idea
19:06
Speaker 3: of that there was some way to kind of pass
19:08
Speaker 3: some sort of essence along uh. And so you know,
19:11
Speaker 3: I think that's something that you know, you absolutely could see.
19:16
Speaker 3: But you know, I think the interesting part about this
19:20
Speaker 3: question is that, uh, it does open up a lot
19:26
Speaker 3: of possibilities, but I also just think it reminds me
19:29
Speaker 3: of just how much storytelling there still is to tell
19:32
Speaker 3: with somebody like and Omega, where there are still so
19:37
Speaker 3: many questions that we don't have answered about her, and
19:44
Speaker 3: and I hope and pray that at some point we
19:47
Speaker 3: will get more content with her and so we can
19:51
Speaker 3: really kind of dive into some of those mysteries, because
19:54
Speaker 3: I think a lot of those mysteries surrounding that whole
19:59
Speaker 3: everything that was even happening there on Mount Tantas, right,
20:03
Speaker 3: is fascinating stuff. And uh, and it's the thing that
20:08
Speaker 3: you know, obviously Filony and the creators the Bad Batch
20:11
Speaker 3: were using to kind of help tie into the whole
20:13
Speaker 3: sequel series in general and then try and create cohesion
20:16
Speaker 3: between everything. And it isn't it. It's a totally fascinating
20:21
Speaker 3: story because you know, it completely ties into the whole
20:25
Speaker 3: idea of the Sith desire to uh stay with the material,
20:34
Speaker 3: uh and discount yes, and in that way, you know,
20:40
Speaker 3: it's something akin to something we were kind of talking
20:42
Speaker 3: about before we start recording. But you know, it's it's
20:47
Speaker 3: the same it's the same problem that you know Voldemort
20:52
Speaker 3: has in Harry Potter, which is that that you think
20:57
Speaker 3: that death is the ultimate enemy, and so that that
21:03
Speaker 3: the whole storyline is incredibly interesting. It's it's the thing
21:06
Speaker 3: that you know, makes then all the stories we got
21:10
Speaker 3: with Yoda and and and learning from Qui Gon and
21:13
Speaker 3: putting all that together. I mean, it's just I think
21:17
Speaker 3: there's there's so many fun mysteries about the Force that
21:22
Speaker 3: are really exciting and so and and you know, it's
21:29
Speaker 3: one of the fun things about you know, as we
21:31
Speaker 3: tie in as well to where we are in the
21:33
Speaker 3: Auhsoka series, and you know, them being left in the
21:37
Speaker 3: other galaxy and the fact that there's a connection with
21:41
Speaker 3: the Mortis gods there. Uh, and there's also you know,
21:47
Speaker 3: Sabine being trained and everything. I just think all of
21:49
Speaker 3: that is so fascinating and it makes me very excited
21:53
Speaker 3: for the fact that we'll be able to you know,
21:57
Speaker 3: continue uh these stories and Star Wars, and it just
22:01
Speaker 3: goes to show how many great stories are still left
22:03
Speaker 3: in the Star Wars galaxy to mine.
22:06
Speaker 1: Absolutely, there are a lot of great stories left to mine.
22:08
Speaker 1: And there are also a lot of great ways to
22:10
Speaker 1: harass you online. So, Matt, why don't you tell people
22:13
Speaker 1: where they can find you?
22:14
Speaker 3: Well, if you're up for it, you can find me
22:17
Speaker 3: on social media under the name Matt Rushing zero two.
22:19
Speaker 3: If I'm on the platform, that's my name. You can
22:22
Speaker 3: also find me here on the network with a completed
22:25
Speaker 3: show about the Harry Potter series called The Outpost, talking
22:28
Speaker 3: about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series. You
22:31
Speaker 3: can also find me over on the TFM network with
22:34
Speaker 3: a lot of different shows. One is the six oh
22:35
Speaker 3: two Club is talking about all of the franchises that
22:38
Speaker 3: we love, plus a lot of great Star Trek talk
22:41
Speaker 3: over there. So please do go over there and check
22:44
Speaker 3: that out. Now, John, when you're trying to figure out
22:48
Speaker 3: what's going on with your reception to the Force, where
22:50
Speaker 3: can people find you? Oh?
22:51
Speaker 1: Well, I'm receiving lots of the Force online as Kessel
22:55
Speaker 1: Junkie K S s E l j u n Kie,
22:58
Speaker 1: and you can find me right here on the network,
23:00
Speaker 1: co hosting a show called house Lights where we look
23:02
Speaker 1: at the work of directors with Trician Rudel and Darren Moser.
23:05
Speaker 1: Have a lot of fun doing that. But Matt, you know,
23:09
Speaker 1: I think that they are a little angry about my
23:13
Speaker 1: vials that I left for my experiments back at the
23:16
Speaker 1: Jedi Temple. So I'm gonna have to ask you, can
23:18
Speaker 1: we please close these negotiations?
23:21
Speaker 3: Well, John, we better get back, so negotiations are closed.
23:31
Speaker 2: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.