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TheD0cNCarolynPodcast.com Episode 123 · TheDocNCarolynPodcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Episode 123 of the Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for being there.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_05: And uh Carolyn's here.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_05: Hi.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_07: Hi.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_05: How are you?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_07: Remember me over here?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_05: I do 12 hours in the urgent care today.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_05: You too, you told me the most fascinating story.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_05: And I think there's a lesson in it.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_05: You said uh you had a patient that came in complaining of chest pain.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_07: Chest discomfort.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_05: So I presume anytime somebody says they have anything involving their chest or their breath or their heart is automatically taken as an emergency.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_07: The thing that he said that's worse is I just have been feeling off.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_05: You mentioned that when you told me uh originally.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_05: So and you said that's common.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: You said people that is is it common to people that have like heart attack symptoms?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_07: Like it's common to people who have serious things sometimes.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_07: They'll say that they feel off for a few days before.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think about um, you know, a lot of people from my class in the police academy, a lot of folks are retiring, so a lot of folks are a little bit older and adjusting to their new body, to their new life, you know, after retirement and all on more than one occasion.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_05: People that have uh have had strokes or had heart attack symptoms or the actual event, they complain of feeling off.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_05: So that's something, and I think the lesson here maybe is if you feel something that you can't quite put your finger on, and you can't and that's what they say.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_07: I just feel off, can't quite put my finger on what's been going on, but I just feel don't feel like myself.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so don't ignore that.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: Happy anniversary, by the way.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: We didn't talk about that last week.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_07: Happy anniversary.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_05: We went to Amerina, that's an Indian uh spot.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, delicious.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: I had this this meal called um beef vendou.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_05: Does that sound right?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: Vendaloo.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: Vendaloo.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_07: Vendaloo.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_05: And it's uh I I tell you, I've never eaten food before where the sauces were so important.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't really grow up on a lot of Italian food.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: I know that sauces are very important and that kind of cuisine, but but this sauce, that this brisket-like beef, I looked it up on YouTube and to make it, it's about two or three hours.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't even get to taste it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_07: No, because it had uh gluten.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: So you yeah, so at this place, at this Indian spot, you were working off the gluten-free menu, which was nice.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, it was very nice because it was, you know, rather than just having a really wide variety of food, and then down in the corner they have one dish that you can eat that's gluten-free.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yours was yours was really tasty, though.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_05: We've been we've been wanting to try Indian food.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_05: And we actually went to Amarina um two years ago for our anniversary.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_05: So we've been there and eaten the food, and we keep talking about learning more about it and learning to appreciate it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I had somebody that gave some great advice when we were in Ohio.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_05: They said if you really want to learn about Indian food, go to the buffet, and that way you can sample a bunch of different stuff.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_05: It won't cost you a lot if you don't like some of it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_05: We had grilled octopus, we gotta bring that up.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_05: It was a curry grilled tentacle.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_07: It was it was good.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: We had some prawns and oh, yours were delicious, spicy prawns, and they were battered and fried with something, but they were good, they were and they were gluten-free.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_07: And that's what I was saying is that they had a wide variety of gluten-free things.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_07: So they even had gluten-free non the bread, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_05: So happy anniversary, good dinner, huh?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_07: Happy anniversary.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_05: We also have to talk about Jaden Ivy.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_05: Ivy is uh NBA player, he played for the Bulls, Chicago Bulls, and was let go because of his faith.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know the whole story.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_05: I don't really, I don't even watch the NBA.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_05: Jaden Ivey.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_07: Are you familiar with um Jaden Ivy from you know, I've been following him since like grade school.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, really?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh-huh.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, he can really kick the football or something.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: His situation has gone viral with him standing against or at least speaking out against the Pride Month agenda of the NBA.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_05: This is part of the bold young man's statement during an interview.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you're seeking the Lord on what you want to do, what what the Lord has for your life.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's only been like 24 hours.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, all things considered, you have a desire to still play basketball.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: If if that opportunity came, it doesn't matter if it's in the NBA, it doesn't matter if it's the CBA, if it's the uh, if it's overseas, if it's it doesn't matter.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: It could be the the African League.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it doesn't matter.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: As long as I'm doing the will of God, abiding in Jesus Christ, that's that's what matters.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what's gonna matter when I stand before God.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's what's that's what every player in the NBA is gonna be held to the same standard as me.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever's worldwide, whoever's seeing this, like, like, like I'm of course, I'm I'm I could play, I could play now and be, you know, the Lord gives me the opportunity.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if that's his will, then may his will be done.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_07: I'm Carolyn Kilgore, founder and provider at TrueHealing Healthcare.net.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_05: Why functional medicine?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_07: Because you're more than just a list of symptoms.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_07: Traditional care often masks the problem, but functional medicine digs deeper to find the root cause.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_05: What makes true healing health care different?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_07: We move away from the one size fits all approach.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_07: We look at your environment and your lifestyle to create a roadmap tailored specifically for you.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_05: What if someone really wants to make a change?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_07: If you're tired of feeling fine and want to start feeling great, it's about proactive wellness, not just reactive treatment.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: What's the deal with telemedicine?
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_07: As long as you're 18 and have an internet connection, you can have a visit in the privacy of your own home or anywhere else in Texas.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_07: We're able to order labs or prescribe or whatever else you need.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_05: True Healing Healthcare.net for the great state of Texas.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: So what do you think?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: Bold stand for Jesus, huh?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yep.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_07: I will be done.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know, that's it's appropriate that it's it's perfect that it's Good Friday.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_05: When we we did last year's Good Friday show, and I opened it up by talking about uh Yeshua and the fact that it was Good Friday.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_05: We lost we lost thir like 40% of our audience in Europe.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: We had we had a nice little following in a couple of spots, but they're not uh trying to hear about Jesus, just like the NBA isn't trying to hear about Jesus.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_07: And the thing is Well, our job is just to plant the seed, and then what happens with that seed is not our business.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_05: And and that's what we're for.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, this podcast, it it's it's getting late in the game.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know how to if you don't know, if you can't see, if it's just business as usual, if all of this open wickedness, all of this open um and it's in the music, it's on television, it's in the award shows, the the the symbolism of the occult is showing up everywhere and more and stronger.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_07: But now it's other Christians.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_07: I know other quote unquote Christians who don't know they don't know anything about what God's Word actually says.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_07: They have this own made-up God in their mind, and they get angry with you when you are following the Jesus of the Bible, not the Jesus that they made up.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: You have to have an objective standard for truth, and that is the revealed word in the ancient documents.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_05: It's important to not just us, it's important to every living person on the planet.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_05: You must know the truth.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_05: I have a thing from Bill Maher.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_05: Bill Maher, I believe, just by with my own observation, he had Charlie Kirk on this show.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_05: Charlie was so gracious.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_05: Charlie was Charlie.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_05: He showed up and was doing his thing and was proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and uh graciously accepting every bit of challenge that Bill Maher is a very uh outspoken atheist.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, religiosity was his movie where he basically made fun of all religion, but he is uh he is hostile to scripture.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: And Charlie just gently answered the man with every question.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_05: And I believe when he was murdered, when Charlie Kirk was murdered, I believe it touched Bill Maher.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_05: I believe it changed him at a kind of a fundamental level that it touched Bill Maher.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_05: I don't see much evidence of that yet, but I think he is coming to some enlightenment.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_05: He he's he's beginning to look at life from a different angle.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_05: And this thing I'm gonna play from him, and and I never thought there would be a time where I would play Bill Maher on this podcast.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_05: That just didn't add up, having him on.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_05: But he says something that's pretty profound at the end of this.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_05: Check this out.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's because we hadn't then grown into the persons we would become.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And humanity writ large is just the collective version of that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Did Columbus commit atrocities?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: But people back then were generally atrocious.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody who could afford one had a slave, including people of color.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: The way people talk about slavery these days, you'd think it was a uniquely American thing that we invented in 1619.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: But slavery throughout history has been the rule, not the exception.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: The Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, the Arabs, British, the early Americans, all the way up through R.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_03: Kelly.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because so many Slavic people were enslaved, and they're as white as the hallmark.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Who do you think gathered the slaves from the interior of Africa?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: To slaves to slave traders, Africans who also kept their own slaves.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Humans are not good people.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so here's what's significant about that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_05: I believe Bill Maher landed on a conclusion he didn't expect to land on, and that is that conventional kind of atheism, conventional non-biblical view is that human beings are born good, that we're born basically, and you know, good, and uh our environment is what corrupts us.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: There is no original sin.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_05: But he said something very profound there, whether he realizes it or not, he says, Listen, people are not good.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_05: No, we need a savior.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_05: Listen, we cannot save ourselves.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_05: If you never gave a thought, the ridiculousness of the lie that evolution is part of this process.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_05: What should have happened in the education uh system was corrupt, and we were told there were millions and billions of years of evolution that created what we see, and that is simply not truth.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_05: That is a lie, just like you know, this agenda to say, yeah, men can have baby.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_05: Well, there are eight billion people on the planet, and none of them have come from a man.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_05: That's just the simple biological fact.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_08: Doc and Carolyn Podcast!
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this Kingdom Minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes, on the Doc and Carolyn podcast.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: There was a guy that commented under my post, he was trying to excuse the fact that he was racist.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of black people do not see their racism as being a problem because they were once slaves.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, everybody was once a slave.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Every group on this earth at some point was a slave.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: There were slaves all throughout the Bible.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody was being made a slave.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that does not excuse you being racist, especially if you carry the name of Christ.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Once you get born again, it says that you are now sealed with the Holy Spirit.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: You are now an heir of Christ, you are now seated with Christ in heavenly places.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: You are a new creation in Christ.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: That means that old things are passed away.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Behold, all things have become new.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I cannot say that I am a victim when I know that I am a victor.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: That would be me disagreeing with God.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have to come into agreement with everything that God says about me, no matter the circumstance.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times people are drawn down into the flesh.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: You even have Christians out here that will start a business and they will lean on the fact that they're black.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: They will say black-owned, woman-owned, whatever they say, all of that to get business because they don't believe that God is capable of sending them business.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will never do that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I will never lower myself to being referred to as my flesh.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for tuning in to this kingdom minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes on the Doc and Carolyn podcast.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can find me on Facebook at Kimberly Blakes, and I also have a podcast called The Faith Frame Perspective.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you guys there.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_05: It's Good Friday, and I challenge you to take a serious look at the birth, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_05: If you've never done it before, if you if you've heard the, if you haven't affirmed this for yourself and haven't done your own accountability and your own investigation into the veracity of the story of Jesus, a man who actually lived, a Messiah that actually came to rescue us.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: If you've never heard the story, if you land here, I don't know where in the world you are, I don't know how you landed here, but you're here for a reason.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_05: I trust that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_05: And listen to the story of salvation in the mouth of Lee Strobel, an atheist that did his own investigation and discovered the truth of Yeshua, the Messiah, the truth, the way, the life.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_05: Here's Lee Strobel in his own words on the Kirk Cameron Show.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_09: What caused you to go so deeply into investigating with um skeptical questions Christianity?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: My wife was an agnostic.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: She didn't know what to believe about God, and she met a woman who was a nurse and a Christian.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: They became best friends.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: Leslie, my wife, asked questions, went to church with her, and then she gave me the worst news that an atheist husband could get.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: She said, I've decided to become a follower of Jesus.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I thought, oh no.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: First word that went through my mind was divorce.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_04: I was going to walk out.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: But then I thought, you know, what if I could rescue her from this cult?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: You know?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: If I could just disprove the resurrection of Jesus, then I could pull the rug out from under this whole thing and get my wife back and get our whole life back.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's what prompted me to take my journalism training and my legal training.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I ended up spending two years of my life systematically investigating what is the historical evidence for Jesus or lack of it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: Or lack of it and his resurrection.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_09: Was one of your concerns also when your wife came to you and said, now I'm a follower of Jesus, that this was going to just cause all of the fun in your marriage and your life to evaporate?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_09: Like she's going to be this holy religious person now?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_09: No, and all of a sudden the, you know, the there's no more fun weekends?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean I was a hedonist because I figured if there is no God, if there is no heaven, if there is no hell, if there is no judgment, if there is no ultimate accountability, the most logical way for me to live my life would be as someone who just pursued pleasure.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so I was living a very immoral life, drunken, profane, narcissistic, self-absorbed.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that was my life.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: And it affected our family.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_04: I remember my daughter, uh, if she, when she was little, you know, a toddler, if she was playing with some toys and she heard me come home from work through the front door, she would just gather her toys and go into a room and shut the door.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: She's gonna be drunk again, you know, she'd be yelling and screaming.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_04: And so this affected our entire our entire family.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um when my wife came to faith, uh, I began to see positive things in her values, in her character and so forth, the way she related to me and the children.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like looking into a mirror, and it it accentuated my sin.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: It made me feel less than because I'm watching her and she's kind of growing in this kind of positive way.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I think, what about me?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, what does this mean for me?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: Is she gonna judge me?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: Is she gonna look down on me?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_09: Sometimes I've I've I've seen people have a spouse or a close friend come to faith, and all of a sudden there's this anger that wells up inside.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_09: Almost like, what are you like you said, are you gonna judge me?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_09: Oh, you're now you're too good for me.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_09: Are we not uh you you you you you're going to places I can't go and I'm gonna be left out?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_09: This is gonna change our relationship.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly, exactly.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_04: I thought this was gonna be the end of our marriage.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: And um so I spent, as I said, two years checking this stuff out because even I, as an atheist, recognize that the resurrection is the bedrock of Christianity.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, verse 17 if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_09: You're still in your sins.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_09: Now, when you were living in this um uh uh sea of hedonism, uh were you enjoying that?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_09: I loved it.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_09: You loved it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_09: So even though you're drunk, even though your daughter doesn't want to see you and she'd rather play with her toys, even though your wife is looking at you saying, I found something so much better, you're still loving this, or are you sensing that she actually has discovered something that I need?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, as she grew in her faith and I began to see the positive impact on her, her values, her character, the way she related to me and the children, then I began to feel this conviction that maybe what the the lifestyle I was living maybe wasn't the optimum way to live.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um and maybe getting drunk on the weekend, um, maybe I could even find a different kind of hobby that was a little more constructive and so forth.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: So uh it is true that as she um grew in her um devotion to Christ, it was accentuating to me my um uh you know the depth of my depravity.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I didn't want to face that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: I I I I I didn't I wanted to ignore it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to paper it over.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: I I wanted to pretend I was a great guy.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_09: But there's two ways to go there.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_09: You you you can either say, my wife is into something that is uh a fairy tale and uh at a worst case could be dangerous, you know, maybe a mental illness.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_09: She's believing in things that are not true, she's hallucinating.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_09: Um but there's also the chance that what she believes is maybe true.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_09: I mean, for thousands of years, Christians have believed in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_09: So you decided to take your investigative skills and go for the jugular of Christianity.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because I I was a journalist at the Chicago Tribune.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: I said plenty of dead bodies, and and I've never seen a dead body come back to life after three days.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I figured, come on, give me a long weekend and I can disprove the resurrection of Jesus.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: It just doesn't happen because I was a materialist, in other words, someone who just believed all there is is that we what we s touch and and see.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um and there is no supernatural, there is no God, and consequently, dead bodies do not return to life.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: I I honestly thought I could disprove it in a weekend.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_09: Now, were you settled when you look back, were you settled on that or were you wanting for Christianity to be false so that you could continue in your hedonism?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_09: Or or there's another option was were you secretly hoping that maybe there was a God out there that gave meaning and purpose and direction to your life?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: There was a push and a pull.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, I was being gently pulled toward Christianity because I could see my wife and these positive.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: And it and it was But it was like pie in the sky, too good to be true, fairy tale.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: Then the other side was wait a minute, you know, I want the old Leslie back.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: I want our old life back.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't sign up for this.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: This wasn't the deal.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I want the old life back.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: And so there was a push and there was a pull at the same time.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I figured I'm gonna be like an umpire in a baseball game.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna call a ball a ball and a strike a strike.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna investigate the evidence as honestly as I can, and I'm gonna evaluate it, and in the end, I'm gonna reach a verdict based on the evidence I uncover.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_09: This is kind of a tall order because what you were attempting to do is to prove that something that allegedly happened, the resurrection of Christ, thousands of years ago, actually never occurred.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_09: How do you find evidence of something that doesn't exist?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Aaron Powell Well, there are techniques you can use to investigate any ancient writing.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: So uh whether it's Josephus or Tacitus or Sertonius, you can take these same investigative techniques and apply them to the pages of the New Testament to try to determine is it telling me the truth?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: So there are uh a lot of historical um um guides that you can use to try to uh diagnose whether or not the writer of the gospels, for instance, is being honest when they report what they're reporting.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'll give you an example.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: There's a criterion called the criterion of embarrassment.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um what that means is uh if you're reading an ancient writing and the author is saying something that hurts their own case or is embarrassing to themselves, they're probably telling the truth.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because if they're gonna make it up, they wouldn't make up something that's gonna hurt their own case or embarrass themselves.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so I read the gospels.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: And guess who discovers the empty tomb of Jesus?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: Women.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: Well, wait a minute.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: In first century Jewish and Roman culture, women were not considered to be reliable purveyors of information.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: They generally weren't allowed to testify in a court of law.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: They weren't considered to be credible.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so it was embarrassing in the first century to say that a woman discovered the tomb empty.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, if you're gonna make it up, you would have said John discovered the tomb empty, Peter discovered the tomb empty.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: That would have given it extra credibility.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: So why do the gospel say that women discover the tomb empty when it hurts their case?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And in fact, in the second century, there were opponents of Christianity who criticize it by saying, oh, you can't trust that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: Women discover the tomb empty.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: So why did they say that?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: The conclusion is they're telling the truth.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's what happened, and they're reporting it um because they're letting the chips fall where they may.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_09: That's fascinating because as a guy who appreciates science and the scientific method, I had to discover what you're saying.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_09: Which is that historical events have to be proven or disproven differently than, say, the law of gravity.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_09: I can't um prove that uh Abraham Lincoln uh wrote the Gettysburg Address or was the the 16th president of the United States in the same way that I prove um the law of inertia.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_09: I I I have to use different criteria.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_09: Exactly.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_09: And it's still scientific, but uh it's a different discipline, and you're actually an expert at that kind of thing.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean it is.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's a different discipline, but it's equally uh credible and reliable.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: So in other words, you look at things like um uh this document.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh how long was it written after the events that it's reporting on?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_04: Is it immediate or is it 200 years later?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because you can have legend grow up in the interim and color what's been uh eventually written down.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um are these eyewitnesses or are these people who weren't in a position to actually see what they're reporting on?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um how many people are reporting on something?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: So there's all these things you can look at to try to say, are these ancient writings telling me what really occurred?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_09: And while that doesn't give us an airtight case that we might like to have, say, with the law of gravity or something like that, I find it fascinating that the only way we can believe any ancient documents as trustworthy and reliable is by using this set of standards.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_09: And if we're gonna believe ancient documents like the Iliad, the Odyssey, uh, these things that nobody questions in terms of their authorship, their authenticity, uh, then those same standards should be applied to the Bible.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_09: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly right.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh for instance, most of what we believe is true about the ancient world, most of those facts are based on one source or maybe two sources.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: And yet, for example, example, um, to we have nine ancient sources inside and outside the New Testament confirming and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they encountered the resurrected Jesus.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: That's an avalanche of historical data.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_04: Historians drool over this kind of stuff.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we have, when you use the test that you would use for any other ancient document, don't don't do anything special um because it's uh religious issues.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: Let's just use the same investigative techniques.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: And when you do, you walk away convinced, wait a minute, this is what really happened.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_09: Lee, you set out to disprove the resurrection.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_09: Because if the resurrection is false, that that that's the that's the the king claim of Christianity is that a man rose from the grave.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because anybody can claim to be, you could claim to be God, I could claim to be God.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: And Jesus got up before a group and he says, I and the father are one.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: And the word in Greek there for one is not masculine, it's neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father are the same person.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_04: He was saying I and the Father are the same thing.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: We're one in nature, we're one in essence.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: And the audience understood who he was saying, because they said, You, you're just a man, you're claiming to be God.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_04: So Jesus claimed to be God, but so what?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: Anybody can do that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: But if Jesus claimed to be God, died, and then three days later rose from the dead, that's pretty good evidence he's telling the truth, right?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_09: And not only that, I I've read in your books like uh The Case for Christ and others, that it wasn't just the biographies of Jesus written by his disciples and those inside the Bible, but accounts of Jesus' life written by those outside the Bible who are not fans of Christianity.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_04: There are actually 110 facts about the life, teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection of Jesus in ancient sources outside the Bible, documented by uh the historian uh Dr.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_04: Gary Habermas in his book, The Verdict of History.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so he goes through all these, these are um references to Jesus in documents that um do you know are not part of what we would consider to be holy scripture.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_09: Lee, much of the evidence about the claims of Jesus, including his resurrection, comes from accounts within the Bible itself.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_09: Right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_09: So those writers of the Bible are biased, aren't they?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: Good question.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um for me, when I investigated uh as a skeptic, as an atheist, the ancient evidence for Jesus and his resurrection, um I did not give the Bible any special credence.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't consider it to be inerrant, inspired, the word of God.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: I do now, but I was a skeptic then.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: But I had to accept the pages of the New Testament for what it undeniably is, which is a set of ancient historical writings.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: And just as you can investigate any ancient writing, you can take those same investigative techniques and apply them to those pages to try to determine is it telling me the truth?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Now, the question of whether or not the authors are biased.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: Well, um, anybody who reaches a conclusion based on their experience and what they see and what they know to be true uh is going to have a point of view.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: And um, but we can look at sources that uh go beyond the Bible and we can see confirmation of many of the key and and salient points about the life teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_09: And the story of Saul of Tarsus going from a Pharisee who was persecuting and killing Christians, rounding them up and exterminating them, why in the world would he reverse course and now become one of the most important followers of Christ and write two-thirds of the New Testament?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_09: What was in it for him if that wasn't true?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly right.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you remove the resurrection, there's no motivation that makes sense to turn Saul of Tarsus into Paul the Apostle.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_09: You can't find a good motive.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_09: Exactly.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: Makes no sense.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_09: What about this, Lee?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_09: Some would say that the accounts of Jesus written in the Bible were written decades after those events occurred.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_09: So you're talking 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, these guys are writing about what Jesus said and what Jesus did.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_09: Is that too much time to go by?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_09: I mean, I I have a hard time remembering what my wife told me to get at the grocery store last night.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_09: If you're talking 10 years or 20 years from now, uh could they have misremembered the stuff that happened?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good question.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Jay Warner Wallace, who you may know, is a uh cold case homicide investigator, was an atheist and became a Christian because he investigated the evidence.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the things he told me, he said, Lee, um um what did you do last um August 12th?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I have no idea what I did last August 12th.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: What did you do on August 12th, 1982?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: I have no idea what I did on August 12th, 1982.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: What did you do on August 12th, 1972?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I can tell you the whole thing.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_04: I can go through the whole day because that's the day I got married.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so when something amazing happens to you, life-changing, like a resurrection, like someone walking on water, like someone turning water into wine.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: When you experience something extraordinary, you remember that.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: And uh so that would be true of the disciples.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Now keep in mind that they wrote the New Testament, the gospels, uh Matthew, Mark, and Luke, within a generation.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: And um A.N.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: Sherwin White, the famous uh historian, said that the passage of two generations of time is not even enough for legend to grow up and wipe out a solid core of historical truth.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: So uh this is within the parameters of being reliable, uh historically speaking.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: But here's the here's the kicker, and this is what it more than anything else brought me to faith.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_04: We have some information preserved for us that can be dated back so early you cannot write it off as being a legend.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: Because we know the Apostle Paul was Saul of Tarsus, a persecutor of Christians.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: One to three years after the death of Jesus, he's on the road to Damascus, he has this encounter with the risen Jesus, he becomes the Apostle Paul.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: Immediately he goes into Damascus and he meets some apostles.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: Many people believe this is when he was given a creed, a we an eyewitness-based creed of the early church that he later sent to the church in Corinth.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: Other people say it was three years later when he went to Jerusalem and he met with two eyewitnesses, Peter and James, who are named in this creed as eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but either way, this means within one to six years after the death of Jesus, a report about the resurrection was already in existence.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_04: The beliefs that make that up go back even earlier.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: So, in other words, we have preserved for us in 1 Corinthians 15, starting in verse 3, a creed, an eyewitness-based creed of the earliest Christians.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_04: Right there in the first century, it says that Jesus died.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: For our sins.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: He was buried.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: On the third day, he rose from the dead, and then it mentions the specific names of eyewitnesses and groups of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: We can date that creed back to within months of the death of Jesus.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_04: One of the great historians, um, James D.G.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: Dunn said, This creed, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as a creed within months of the death of Jesus.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: So there's no huge time gap between the death of Jesus and the later development of a legend that he rose from the dead.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_04: We got a news flash goes right back to the beginning.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_09: There have been claims of other Jewish men identifying as the Messiah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_09: As the the the the the coming of the promised one, the anointed one.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: There are people through history who've made the claim that they are the Messiah.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_04: Nobody except Jesus, though, fulfills the ancient prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: Prophecies that included things like how he would be born of a virgin, um, his ancestry, um, how he would die, the time frame in which he would die, um, things that only he could fulfill.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, if Jesus is not the Messiah, there will never be a Messiah.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: Because nobody can go back and fulfill things that needed to be fulfilled before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: There were certain prophecies that had to be fulfilled before then.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: There had to be a return to the temple by the Messiah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that can't happen today.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: So if Jesus isn't the Messiah, there never will be a Messiah.
• 32:16
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