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What to Expect from Golf Architecture in 2025 · Designing Golf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What will be the big stories in golf architecture in
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. I'm talking about that today with Andy Johnson,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: founder of Friday Golf. We'll discuss some projects, some architects,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and some trends that we're keeping an eye on this year.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf. The idea
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: of today's episode is, basically, we'll talk about a couple
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of ongoing golf course projects that we're interested in and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that we think people should know about. Things that haven't
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: opened up yet, might open up this year, might open
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: up in the next couple of years. You know, often
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: people are curious about what's coming up in golf architecture
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: because this stuff isn't super widely reported on always, So
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: we'll offer some insights there. We'll talk about an architect
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: that we think will have a big year, or a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: couple of architects that we think will will be, you know,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: significant parts of the story in twenty twenty five, and
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: we'll wrap up by talking about some trends that we
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: expect to be a big deal. So let's start with projects.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: What's the first one that you're that you're keeping an
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: eye on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is a high profile one. Uh,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: it's it's a it's going to be the next giant resort.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: But Rodeo Dunes is a project that I think it's
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: in a way is like going almost under the radar.
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  Speaker 2: I think they probably want it to be someone under
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: the radar. The Kaisers are are pretty keep things under
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: wraps really well. You know, they don't show stuff during
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: construction generally, and you know they then these great golf
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: courses open out of nowhere. I think why I'm so
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: interested in it is that Sand Valley's success. I think
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: that they expected it to be successful. I think what
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: they didn't understand was the power of population centers. Obviously,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: abandon four hours from Portland really in the middle of nowhere.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: When you think about where stan Valley is, it feels
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: like the middle of nowhere. But there are basically four
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  Speaker 2: big metro areas within driving distance. You have Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Wisconsin,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: and Minneapolis all within four hours of driving distance. And
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  Speaker 2: I think the Kaisers almost underestimated how valuable that is
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: and how popular it would make a resort. And now
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  Speaker 2: with Rodeo Dunes, you have even greater proximity, greater proximity
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: than any of those metro areas to a giant city
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  Speaker 2: in Denver you have, I think it's roughly about an
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: hour from Denver to Rodeo Dunes, which is like a
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  Speaker 2: day trip, you know, like the I used to when
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I lived in the city of Chicago frequently drive an
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  Speaker 2: hour to play golf. This is like something that if
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: you live in a big city, you're kind of used to.
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  Speaker 2: And and these Denver residents are going to be able
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  Speaker 2: to drive to like what a world class destination and
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: then come back home. It's gonna be really I just
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: think like this resort has is the first dream golf
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: resort where it's got like really close proximity to a
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  Speaker 2: major city. And I am fascinated by that. I'm fascinated
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: by what that means for like championship golf. Could we
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: see championship golf? I know they do the US AM,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: but like, could we see US Open golf at Rodeo Dunes.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Could we see US Women's Open? Could we see that?
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  Speaker 2: To me is what is so fascinating about Rodeo Dunes.
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  Speaker 2: It's just we've never seen a kaiser resort so close
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  Speaker 2: to a mass of population center. And I think that
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: is going to make it one of the most busy,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: popular places to play. And when we think about it,
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  Speaker 2: when we look at it twenty years from now, it
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  Speaker 2: could be an insane resort that that meets a huge
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  Speaker 2: amount of demand.
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  Speaker 1: You talked about it being about an hour from Denver,
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  Speaker 1: it's even closer to the airport because the airport is
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  Speaker 1: like out in that direction quite a ways, and so
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  Speaker 1: you fly into that airport, which is a you know,
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  Speaker 1: a major hub right A lot of flights connect through there.
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  Speaker 1: It's pretty easy to get flyport everywhere. It's like this
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  Speaker 1: central kind of spoke in a lot of routes across
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  Speaker 1: the across the US, and it's right next to it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Chicago and Dallas and Atlanta are the places
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  Speaker 2: that like, when you walk through a terminal, you're like,
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  Speaker 2: I cannot believe that they're there's a direct flight there.
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  Speaker 2: I saw when I was in the last time I
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  Speaker 2: was in Denver airport, my terminal, I was flying to
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  Speaker 2: small airport. I can't remember where I was flying, but
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  Speaker 2: I looked across the way and it was like Greenville, Hawaii,
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  Speaker 2: and then there was a couple other small cities. I
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: think West Texas. One flight was going to and I
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: was just like, God, I cannot believe all the places
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  Speaker 2: that have direct flights from here. So yeah, that is
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  Speaker 2: it's gonna be. I think it's just.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's the.
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  Speaker 2: Core crunch horse design. In the first course, the land
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  Speaker 2: looks unbelievable, but from just the sheer ease of getting
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  Speaker 2: to I think it is going to be just such
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  Speaker 2: a smash commercial success.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll it'll be a big deal and it will
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  Speaker 1: it will be a new model of dream golf resort,
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  Speaker 1: I guess just because of this location factor. A big
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: part of Bandon Dunes is kind of the pilgrimage to
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: get out there. You know, you often fly into the
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Portland Airport or maybe Eugene or something you'd and those
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: are not always the easiest airports to get to. I
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  Speaker 1: know that firsthand since I live in Portland. But then
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  Speaker 1: you drive for four or five hours if you're if
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  Speaker 1: you're coming into Portland to get to Bandon Dunes and
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  Speaker 1: and you're way out in the in the middle of
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  Speaker 1: this coastal region that's not very heavily populated. So this
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  Speaker 1: will have I think a really different feel and it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: going to be interesting to see how the Kaisers transpose this,
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  Speaker 1: this dream golf model onto this new kind of location.
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  Speaker 1: But of course there are similarities too, because we've got
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: kind of rolling sandy land. We've got Corn Crenshaw doing
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: the first course, and then Coren Crenshaw's associate, Jim Craig
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  Speaker 1: doing the second course. Jim Craig designed the short course
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  Speaker 1: at Sand Valley as well as a new course is
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: that is under development right now, and so there's going
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  Speaker 1: to be a familiar architectural lineage, there's going to be
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  Speaker 1: a familiar type of land, but the location is just
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: going to change a lot of things. The way people
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: use this resort is going to be different.
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  Speaker 2: I just remembered where I was flying. I was flying
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: to Traverse City. Yeah, right, Denver to Traverse City. Now,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: think about that, Traverse City is like basically as far
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  Speaker 2: north in the state, across from a lake from the
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  Speaker 2: other one. It conceivably is easier for Traverse City residents
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  Speaker 2: to get to this Kaiser resort than it is to
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: get to Sand Valley unless they're flying like private.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: That's nuts, kind of wild, all right. So let's talk
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  Speaker 1: about a different project that I'm keeping an eye on.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: This is another public project that people will you know,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: will be able to access without having to ask a member.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Seven Mile Beach. This is in Tasmania. Speaking of proximity
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  Speaker 1: to airports, it's basically right next to the Hobart International Airport,
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  Speaker 1: so if you fly into Tasmania, you're going to like
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: kind of fly over this course. Seven Mile Beach. The
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: first course is designed by Mike Clayton and Mike Devrees.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: The developer Matt Goggin sent me an email a few
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: days ago to give me an update on the on
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the opening plans for this course, because that there's been
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: some uncertainty as to exactly when it is opening. It's
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: a dynamic links course on very sandy seaside land and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: so the growing isn't exactly the most predictable thing in
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: the world. But he tells me that they're planning on
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: slowly rolling out some preview play for friends and families
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  Speaker 1: starting around March, and then increasing the numbers as the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: course progresses. It will be a limited number through the
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: you know, through the Australian tes Tasmanian Spring, and then
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: they'll start to open it up. That's the latest update
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  Speaker 1: on the first course at seven Mile Beach. Of course,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: there are already plans underway for the second course at
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: seven Mile Beach seven Mile Beach North, designed by the
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: firm King Colin's Dormer. But I've seen a lot of
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  Speaker 1: pictures of this course under construction. Matt Goggan has been
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: sharing some, Mike Clayton has been sharing some. They're both
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  Speaker 1: active on social media, and it really does look pretty fantastic.
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  Speaker 1: The land looks unbelievable and it looks to me like
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  Speaker 1: Clayton and Devrees have taken a very naturalistic approach to
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  Speaker 1: this land, building something that truly looks like a Lynx course,
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  Speaker 1: and so I'm pretty excited about that. And it's going
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  Speaker 1: to be a fairly accessible resort. I think people in
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Tasmania are going to be able to use this course
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  Speaker 1: on a regular basis and travelers will will find it
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  Speaker 1: pretty accessible as well. So very excited about seven Mile Beach.
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  Speaker 1: Some delays in the opening, but they're they're doing the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: right way, They're making sure the course is ready and
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  Speaker 1: so very much looking forward to to getting there at
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  Speaker 1: some point. What's a second project that you're tracking right now?
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  Speaker 2: This is the other end of the spectrum from my
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  Speaker 2: Rodeo Dunes Pick. But I've got two restoration efforts that
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: are kind of starting to begin, Saint George's Hill and Sunningdale.
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  Speaker 2: Brian Schneider is the consulting architect at Saint George's Hill
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  Speaker 2: in England and Gil Hants is the consulting architect at
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  Speaker 2: Sunningdale in England. Very high profile clubs in the UK
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  Speaker 2: have pretty much been worked on by one architecture firm
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  Speaker 2: for the last twenty or so years. Obviously, there have
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: been a few intermixed. The Addington was done by Clayton
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  Speaker 2: Devrees and Frank Pott. You have, you know, other examples
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: like Woodhall Spa. Yeah, Woodhall Spa by by Tom Doak.
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  Speaker 2: But just in general, these are really really high profile
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  Speaker 2: projects that that did not go to the firm of
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Tom mackenzie and Martin Ebert. So I think it's notable
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  Speaker 2: maybe the beginning of a trend of of UK golf
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  Speaker 2: going away from those architects and and towards a different
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: style of work where maybe it's not as championship focused,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: maybe it's not around moving as much earth as possible,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: and uh, you know, and having that kind of be
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: you know, the part of the let's call it, uh
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  Speaker 2: part of the thing that drives decisions from an architecture firm. Uh.
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  Speaker 2: So it is a that those two projects to me
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  Speaker 2: are pretty interesting in the sense of, really, you know,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: where where's the golf in UK going the next twenty years.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: You know, there's obviously always going to be a very
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: very minimal amount of new projects with with just coastal
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: laws and environmental restrictions, so a lot of the news
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: out of there is always going to be redesigned in
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: restorations and renovations. So those are two projects that I'm
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: really interested in, how they are received, how they progress,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: and and really what the long term impacts they have
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: are on UK golf. What's your h what's your other
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: course that you're looking at?
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: The other course that I'm looking at is the Ranch.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: This is one of the many courses being developed in
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: South Florida right now, specifically in Martin County, specifically along
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the Saint Lucy Canal. There are a few projects there.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Appage is one that is a big golf complex with
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: many different designers involved. Sand Glass is there a Tom
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Doak project that's that's really interesting as well. But the
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Ranch is going to be a private thirty six hole
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: complex designed by Whitman, Axland and Cutton. That is, Rod Whitman,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Dave Axland, and Keith Cutten. This is a very experienced
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: trio of architects, especially Rod Whitman and Dave Exland, who
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: trained and worked with the kind of Pete Dye Core
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and Crenshaw Design Tree and are extremely capable architects. Keith
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Cutton is their kind of young younger partner who has
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: also come up in a somewhat similar system. This development.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: The ranch is being spearheaded by Ken Baxt who is
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: a co founder of Friar's Head, so it has some
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: serious firepower behind it. But I'm just really interested to
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: see some original work from Whitman, Axland and Cutton. They've
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: had a couple of projects on their locket for a
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: while that have just been delayed a bit in development.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: One Oregon that's that's kind of mired in lawsuits related
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to land use, and then Cabot Pacific and the kind
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: of Wilds of British Columbia, which it doesn't seem like
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: that project is is moving forward quickly. Let's let's say
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: that there's I'm not exactly sure what's what's going on there.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: But this is to me a very exciting project.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: That project when it got announced, I mean, it was
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: supposed to be golfing by twenty three or twenty four.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three was the initial date that I heard
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And I don't think they don't think that. Yeah, I
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: don't think anything started. I mean, this is one of
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: the things with golf projects, which is this happens. Yeah,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: It's why there's still some risk to them, right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: It's why they're hard to report on. Frankly, I mean
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I was, I was kind of poking around about the
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: ranch a little bit this morning, making sure that this
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: you know that this project because the timelines you initially
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: here don't tend to turn out to be the case
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: most of the time. But in any case, I really
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: want to see some some work from Whitman. Excellent and cutting.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: They did the new short course shorties at Bandon dune'es,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: but I would really like to see a regulation golf
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: course from them. And I hear that this land at
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: the Ranch, although the general terrain in that area of
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Martin County of Florida is not the most attractive for golf.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I hear that the land is pretty good for this course,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: and so I'd really like to see what this firm
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: does when it when it gets a big opportunity like this,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: because some of the constituents of the firm, some of
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: the principles of the firm, are very very talented in
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: their own right and have done great solo work. And
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: so that's that's to me, a very exciting firm. Why
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: don't we move forward to the architects that we think
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: are going to have a big year. Maybe some architects
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: that we've already mentioned, maybe not, But who are you
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: looking at among golf course designers that you think will
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: will have a big twenty twenty five?
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I think the name I had a couple of names
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: that popped into my head, but the one I settled
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: on was Brian Schneider. I think that we are if
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you look at like how architects kind of break out,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it is they build something and then it becomes widely acclaimed,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and then a couple of years after that they start
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: to get other high profile projects. With Brian Schneider or
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: two years after old Barnwell, at this point, I think
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: the big time projects are going to start to flow,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: and he's going to start to compete with Tom Doak
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: and Gil Hants and Corn Crunshaw four jobs, really high
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: profile jobs because he's built a golf course that is
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: widely recognized as a great, great golf course. He obviously
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: did that with Blake Conant. I think he Blake is
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: going to you know, kind of private enter, a new
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: realm for him. He's a little bit younger and I
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: you know, and a little bit less experience than Brian Schneider.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: But I think Brian Schneider is going to get some
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: really big jobs in the near future, especially if the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: golf boom continues. So I'm I'm kind of keeping keeping
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: my eyes out for news that pertaining to projects from him.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: What about you, well.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: O CM was the firm that I wanted to talk
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: about because I think they're just getting a lot of jobs.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: They're showing an ability to go out and get work
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and to execute on that work. This is the Australian
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: firm Oglevi, Cocking and Mead. Jeff Oglevie, Mike Cocking and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Ashley Mead are the partners at this firm. That's o
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: CM and Madna. Number three was their kind of big,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: high profile UH redesign project last year but I think
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that the reception of that is going to start to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: come into focus this year, as.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: I mean they didn't have they didn't have guest play
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: outside of like they did a couple like days for
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: for like so that the golf industry people could see it,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: but like they didn't have guests play and they had
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: restrictions on non member play.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, like this is really in a way they're
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: opening year.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely more people are going to play the course.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: And Medna is one of those clubs in the Chicago
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: area where a lot of people play, right it has
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: had the common members. Yeah, yeah, it's it's relatively I mean,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: this word is tricky when applying it to any private club,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: but it is among the private clubs in the Chicago area,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: a relatively accessible one because they have so many members
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and so much of a golf offering.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So we'll see how people do a lot of a
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: lot of outings. I don't think they're doing a lot
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: of outings on course three, but they you know, like
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: it is just like it's a place that if you're
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: in Chicago and you're really into golf, you probably are
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: going to get to at some point in your life.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, and then you know they've they've got a
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: couple of projects in Texas in fact coming along original
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: designs Tepatonka in Minnesota which you mentioned, and then of
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: course in their native Australia, especially in the Melbourne area,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: they have really emerged as one of the dominant firms.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: It's basically that firm, and then Clayton, Defrees and Pont
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: who have a lot of the really important renovation and
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: restoration work that's going on. They're working on a couple
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: of very interesting projects right now in the Melbourne area,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: a renovation of Huntingdale, which is a true sand belt
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: golf course, and then a redesign of Long Island, which
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: is right next to Peninsula Kingswood, which was the redesign
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: that really kind of showed, I think for the first
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: time what OCM is capable of. So those are some
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: projects to keep an eye on in Australia. But yeah,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: it just seems to me that OCM is really well positioned.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Jeff Ogilvie obviously a very well known guy and has
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: become a kind of public intellectual in golf, and in
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: somewhat the same way that I guess Ben Crenshaw did
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: at one time, and that Tom Doak continues to do.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: He's extremely articulate and smart about all matters golf. And
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: the fact that he is a major winner, a well
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: known person, somebody who's been on TV. I think that's
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: going to be a major advantage in them getting jobs.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And then the fact that he has such a high
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: golf IQ and has partnered with two extremely capable architects
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: in Mike Cocking and Ashley Meade gives that firm a
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: lot of juice. We'll also see to talk about one
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: other firm through one other name out there. We'll also
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: see what kind of year it is for Kyle Franz.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Really last year was Kyle's big year because he had
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of course openings, those those two courses at
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Cabot Citrus Farms which are officially opening this month, but
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: also his original designs at Luling in Texas and at
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Broomsedge and in South Carolina. But those courses, you know, again,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: it's that what you talked about with Medina, where it's
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: kind of limited preview play. Maybe maybe some media people
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: get out there, maybe a few members get out there,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: but it's really this year when we're going to see
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: how people respond to it. If it is, if it
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: is an ecstatic response like we saw from Old Barnwell,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: then obviously, well we'll see more work going going Kyle Frans' way,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: So I'll definitely be keeping an eye on that.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it should be. It should be fascinating to see
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: that as well. I think at Kyle Kyle's an interesting one.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: He's also I think he's doing pretty extensive renovation work
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: right now at at Eastward ho Bumkers, and there's there's
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a lot going on there right now, so there's that
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: also will be another I mean, I just I marvel
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: at the sheer volume of projects. There's a lot going on,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff to talk about, a lot
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: of stuff to pick from on this, and you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: there's there are a lot of people that are getting
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: chances that other generations of architects weren't afforded. And you know,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: there were a lot of talented people that had that
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: really like left the field of golf architecture because these
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: opportunities didn't exist ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. So it's
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: nice to be in a spot where we're going to
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: see younger in a realm of the word younger, but
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: you know, new architects get a chance.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about it all the time. I started
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: working for you in twenty nineteen, and golf course design
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: was not a beat. It wasn't a reporting beat. It
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: didn't there was no there's no reason to be really
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: reporting on new development and in golf course architecture because
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: it was so slow, especially in the United States, and
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: things have changed really quickly. Now. That gets us to
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: our our final topic today. Andy, I'm wondering about any
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: trends right now that you are that you think will
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: be important in twenty twenty five.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess this is just just my personal I'd
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: love to see a trend of of the middle tier
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: club saying no to extensively large golf course renovation work
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: unless you're talking about a complete redesign, if you're middle
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: of the road golf course in your in your market,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: if you're you know.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: If you're like if you're like the second or third
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: best Donald Ross course in your in your city, or
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: something like that, I don't.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like you should be doing and you
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: know this is I just don't. I would be saying
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: no to the full shutdown to twenty million dollar project.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, you're just gonna
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: come out with a golf course that is really the
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: same golf course. There's you know, yeah, sure you might
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: improve here and improve around the edges, but you're gonna
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: lose your golf course for a year, and you're really
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: nobody's gonna think about you much differently the next year.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I I just think that right now, it's like there's
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: a look around, and well, they did it. And I
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: think that that in general, clubs need to prioritize doing
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: what's best for them, and I think that that is
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: just generally a good guiding light. It's one of the
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: things that I think the best renovations in project work,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and the clubs that come out of things in the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: best light are generally the ones that make decisions not
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: based on what others are doing, but based on what's
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: best for them. And I can't envision a world where
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: some of these twenty million dollar projects that are that
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: are getting passed and that are getting planned out are
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: good decisions by the club. And obviously I'm not you know,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I don't have all the numbers and understand everything all
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the dynamics, but on the face of taking a golf
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: course that we'll just say is a doke six and
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: we're going to do work and the ceiling might be
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: it might be a six and a half after twenty
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: million dollars. That's just not a good idea in my opinion,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and I see a lot of people doing it, and
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you lose your club for a year. It's a pain
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: in the ass as a membership. And there are plenty
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: of roadmaps of doing something piecemeal and doing something slowly
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: over a set of years and having as good, if
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: not better results.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: What do you have, Well, I suppose it's sort of related.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Rising costs of construction is the big thing that I
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: am keeping a close eye on now. I don't really
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: think that we're in a golf development bubble. There is
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: some concern about that because people are looking at all
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: these projects in the southeast southeastern United States and saying,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: how can this area possibly support this many new private
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: destination golf clubs. I think the answer is that there
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: is a clientele there for that those places often develop
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: memberships before they even develop the courses, and so I
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: think that a lot of those those will survive and
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: they have a kind of solid financial model where they're
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: not reliant on day to day green fees. So I
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: don't precisely think that we're in a bubble, but I
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: am concerned about how much it costs right now to
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: build a golf course and to maintain a golf course.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: The labor costs, the land costs, the materials costs, the
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: cost of hiring a good drainage and irrigation contractor, all
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: of that stuff is getting more and more expensive. And
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: we're seeing right now twenty million dollar renovations that I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: believe a decade ago would have been eight to nine
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: million dollar renovations, maybe maybe even less. It's pretty stunning
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: how steeply costs have gone up now. It's also an
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: indication of how bullish a lot of developers are on
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: the potential for new golf development that nonetheless we see
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of projects plowing forward, and ultimately the ones
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: that have been completed seem to have been successful so far.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But I am concerned about two effects of those rising costs.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: One is that obviously public golf is going to get
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: left behind by this. If it costs this much to
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: renovate a golf course, we're just going to see fewer
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: and fewer public golf courses, especially affordable public golf courses,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: doing projects. We're still seeing those projects, but they're obviously
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: just not coming at the rate that you would hope
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: given the overall momentum in the golf course development industry.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: So that's one thing I'm concerned about the effects on
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: public golf and the ability of ordinary mom and pop
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: courses to pull off renovations when costs are what they are.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: The other effect of it is going to be some
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: geographic imbalance, because right now we're just seeing an awful
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: lot of activity in Texas, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida. Right
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: that's basically where the surge is right now, and that's
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: great for those areas, but there's a reason that people
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: are developing golf courses in those areas. The land is
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: a little bit cheaper and regulations for development are a
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: little bit looser, and so the costs are manageable. Elsewhere,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: the costs of golf course development are just a lot
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: harder for developers to meet. And so I think we're
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: going to see, if things continue as they are, some
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: unevenness in where people are really supplied with golf.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: You forgot about Montana. Montana's a. Montana got a lot
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: of projects for mind.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, crazy Mountain Ranch by Coren Crenshaw. We've got Twin
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Bridges by Kay Golby. Really excited about those projects, honestly.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I want to call out Montana as a
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: development hotbed because I felt like it was that it
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: was not appropriately uh included this. Yeah, I mean anything
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I cost is I think that's the dominant one I've talked.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've talked about it a lot in
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: recent weeks, and it's, uh, it's going to be kind
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: of a a prohibitive factor in in some regard. And
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I agree with what you're what you're saying about redesigns
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: for for municipal public affordable golf is going to be hard,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: You're I think what you're going to see is high end,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: high end public and and and private golf are the
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: areas where you're going to see continued development. But it's
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: hard to imagine a world where you know, a fifty
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: dollars meuni ever ever gets built because it's just hard
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: to build that. So that's why what one project I
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: called out in a in a newsletter for Frida Egg
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: was Warmouth stands and Vidalia Georgia. That's one that I'm
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: super excited about it. I talked to Mike Young about it.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: It's pretty funny. He was like he was like the
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the the mayor of Vidalia because that's the private airport
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: that people fly in to for a hoopie.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: For the z Yeah. And Mike Young, by the way,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: is the is the architect behind this new municipal course
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: in this little town.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like looking around at all the celebrities
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: and private jets that were coming in, and they they
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: realized that this this land, the sand that they just
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: their town sits on. Was like they were like, well,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: why is Peyton Manning coming in? Why why are these
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: people coming to Vadalia? And they realized that sand was
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: this unbelievable golf resource. And it took him a couple
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: of years, but they realized like, oh my god, we're
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: sitting on something that's super valuable and they invest in it.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But like you know, most of these sandy plots where
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: there's land available are really remote and that you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: constricts the ability to to have golf like public golf,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: like you know, it's hard. Yeah, it's worked for like
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Sweeten's Cove it's worked for you know, I think AKN
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Golf Club has a lot of fanfare. It's worked for remote,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: but it's hard if nobody goes. Like Buffalo Dunes is
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: a great example of this out in remote, like Garden City, Kansas.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: It is really far away. And I remember I was
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: at Prairie Dunes and I was I had like this
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: was during COVID. I had like kind of a an
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: open schedule where I was trying to plot my way
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: back home. I drove, I had driven to Prairie Dunes.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: I'm at Prairie Dunes. I'm sitting there one night trying
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: to figure out how I'm going to get home where
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I'm stopping on my way home. And I looked at
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Buffalo Dudes, I'm still four hours away and it's four
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I was like, I ended up going to wild Horse
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: on that trip because I Wildhorse, Well it was four hours,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: but it was it got me two hours closer to Chicago.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Like the fact that I wasn't driving, Like I looked
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: at Buffalo Dunes, It's like four hours and I'm four
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: hours further from Chicago. Yeah, Like it was like, you know,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: it's like some of these courses they're just so far
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: away that have this this potential. And I think what's
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: interesting about Warmouth is I mean there are employees of
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a hoopie match club that live in Savannah and drive
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: every day. So this is this is not this one's
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: not out of reach for like, there is a you know,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: you could go to Savannah and if you go down
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: there with your partner that doesn't play golf, you could
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: easily set them up with something to do in the
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: morning and you could get out there.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'd like to get two shout outs to
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: municipal golf projects or public golf projects that are fairly
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: near population centers and are doing work. First of all,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the entire Nashville municipal golf system has basically hired Bruce Hepner,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: who used to work for Tom.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Do Pody did on the Frida Egg with him about
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: this stuff.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this that was maybe about a year ago at
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: this point. And and and Bruce has has essentially renovated
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: two of those courses in that municipal system that was
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the product of a of a private public partnership in
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: the city. They invested in the golf courses and they
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: got work done. So that's really impressive. Now, partly as
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: a result of my podcast with Bruce Hepner, he is
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: also now working at Miami Lakes, which is a public course,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: you know, just in the kind of northern suburbs of Miami. Uh.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: And he was hired for that project because the owner,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: one of the owners of that, one of the operators
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: of that golf course, listened to the podcast, was like, hey,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: this guy might know what to do with our golf course.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: And so they're doing a big renovation there as well.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Those are near population centers and they're doing work. But
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: it's not easy. You know. Buffalo Dunes is a great project.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: They've wrapped up pretty much all of their greens renovations.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: This was a comment in Club TFE that we got
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: from the assistant superintendent. He said, all the greens renovations
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: are completed and now they just have to add some
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: new t boxes, bunkers and a new driving range next
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: year and it will be complete. I think that course
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: is going to be stunning, you know, really really cool
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: looking like sort of wild horsey prairie dunez. But yeah,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: it's pretty far away from major population centers. I'm going
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to get out there. I hope people make it a
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: point to get out there. But I think one reason
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: that project got done is because again, keeping costs under
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: control in that kind of location is just a little
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: bit easier. So that's a major theme of golf course
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: development that we'll be reckoning with for certainly the entirety
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five and beyond. All Right, thank you
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: very much Andy for coming on this brand new Friday
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Golf podcast. Appreciate it, and I'll have you back on
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: on occasion just to talk a little bit of golf
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: course design. How does that sound?
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Sounds great? Can't wait to see how where this podcast goes.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: All right, So that's episode one of Designing Golf in
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: the Books. We got it started, we launched the podcast.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: We're going forward. If you like what you hear and
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: you're say watching this on YouTube, then go to the
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Designing Golf feed and subscribe. We've got a couple of
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: more episodes there. So if you're listening to this in
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: the podcast feed, you've got a couple more episodes that
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you can listen to if you'd like. One is a
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: kind of golf course architecture one O one episode with PJ. Clark,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: and then the other is an interview with none other
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: than Jeff OGLVII that I did while I was in
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Australia in December. So those two episodes are going to
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: be available to you in the Designing Golf podcast feed. Now,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: if you are listening to this as a podcast, just
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: note that Friday Golf has a YouTube page where we're
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: posting all of our podcasts, from the Friday Golf Podcast
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: to the Shotgun Start to this podcast. So if you
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: like that that visual medium for your podcast and maybe
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: at some point in Designing Golf, well we'll do a
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: few different things with the visuals of what we're talking about.
• 37:45
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• 37:48
  Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel and see what we're offering there.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: One final note, Club TFE is Friday Golf's membership. If
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast because you have a passion
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: for golf, golf course designer, or an interest or just
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: kind of starting on that process of learning about it,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: then I think CLUBTFE will offer a lot for you.
• 38:09
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• 38:14
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• 38:19
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• 38:22
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• 38:26
  Speaker 1: to the Frida egg dot com slash membership to see
• 38:29
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• 38:32
  Speaker 1: that come with the membership as well, but I thought
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: i'd focus on the content there since since that's what
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: we're doing right now. We're doing content all right. Thank
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: you for listening to Designing Golf, and I'll see you
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: again in the next episode.