Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #47-Bedingfield, Blue, & Lipstein

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Episode #47-Bedingfield, Blue, & Lipstein · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth, The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, good afternoon, Don.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We are recording this a little later in the day because we do have a gentleman joining us from California on the West Coast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of said I wanted to kind of forego uh my banter at the beginning because I feel like that we have a different type of podcast that we're going to be doing.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to let you explain that here in just a second.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh doesn't mean that we won't have banter uh back and forth.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: We had kind of a few minutes before we hit the record button of just kind of joking back and forth.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I know that Merth does the soul well.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we'll just kind of organically see where this goes, as always.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Don, do you want to kind of explain for our listeners uh how this is going to be more of a panel discussion, with me being the moderator and the three of you other uh gentlemen on here being the panelist?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds uh wonderful, although you just described it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but this episode is gonna be uh it is dedicated to a good friend of uh Jerry, John, and myself, um Bob Baronek, who uh passed away uh this past spring in 2026.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh uh Bob uh the three the four of us knew each other because I facilitated a group of dads that um had lost a child to suicide.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: And uh Bob and Jerry and John were all part of that group.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and they uh did some really good healing work together.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: There were uh probably 12, I think um close to 12 uh other uh dads uh that have recent that have gotten together um after uh they all graduated from uh the group that I was facilitating.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: And um and Bob uh Jerry and John were three organizers of the group.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think Bob probably um was an inspir inspiration to everyone to continue the group.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh we uh decided that we just want to dedicate this episode to him uh because of um the uh the impact that he has had on not just the three of us, but so many others.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh so yeah, we're doing it a little different.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited about it, and we've talked about doing this for months now, and we had it scheduled, and then I came down with the flu and we had to reschedule.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, gentlemen, on that.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I'm glad this is finally happening.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all five of us, because we're gonna include Bob Baranak in that in his memory, have lost uh children.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh four uh of those to suicide and my son to an auto accident.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, method in which they perished and died does not matter.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a the whole focus here is on the fact that there was a group of grieving fathers who lost sons and daughters.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um how do you cope and how do you deal with uh the fact that you have somebody amongst your uh your uh sphere of influence as a friend and that shares empathy, uh, not just sympathy, but truly understands what you're going through in your loss and your grief journey.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do you grieve um after that person dies when you're in the midst of grieving your child uh as well?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna ask uh I've got a list of questions here.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: We might not get to them all.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Don.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Before you get started with the questions, why don't we let John and Jerry uh introduce themselves uh yeah briefly and and and your your child as well.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So John, how about you start us off?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, thanks.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh thanks, Greg, and Don.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so my name is John, John Blue.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I met uh uh uh everybody through uh Dawn's uh coping after suicide uh group.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I lost my daughter to suicide in 2022, uh my daughter Karina.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's been the the group has been a tremendous uh uh inspiration and uh help uh to me working through the process mostly.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't take all the time, but uh mostly through sort of uh understanding that there are other people in the same same boat.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you feel really isolated and weird when you go through some some major tragedy.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And having other people that are sharing the experience makes you feel a lot more normal and uh able to deal with it.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So and how old was Karina when she passed?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Karina was 26.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, John.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: We're glad that you were uh joining us.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Jerry, how about you?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh sure.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh thanks for having me, Jerry Vettingfield.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I did uh I got to know John and Bob and uh a host of others through uh coping with suicide like John.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: We were in a group with that Don um Don led, and uh uh my son Hank had passed while he was at school, um, which is something that Bob and I shared.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is uh he lost his son Carson while he was at school.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think about it, they were both in Colorado, two different schools.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um so uh lost Hank about four years ago.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what John set is spot on, it was really important to discover that there was a uh group that you weren't alone, that there was someone that kind of understood and knew where you were, and uh just the connections went from there.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh our group, which was led by Don, eventually kind of morphed over a couple of over several sessions.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we realized we needed more, but we didn't need as much.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we created a group on our own with that met on a monthly basis, and Bob was a champion of that, of even more so of getting together.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he he really charged us and really pushed us to to get there.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So uh where we where we did have a meeting in person.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So as we had we had all known each other for over a year and never met in person.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so you did get together in person.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: We we did, and uh, but it and there was some splinter get-togethers before that, and Judge John was actually one of the first, and Bob loved that picture of them getting together and uh and sharing that with the group, and he thought it was that in person was it was really the kind of the goal.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: That was the uh the holy grail of building that relationship.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I don't know if I don't know if I'm I've strayed too far from the original question, but there you go.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's and and an interesting connection that uh Jerry and I have, his son Hank was gone to Colorado College, which uh I worked as the uh director of food service um at Colorado College for four years back in my uh earlier years.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: And Jerry me being 80 years old now.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh that's I didn't know you were that young.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Jerry, did your uh did your son pass in Colorado?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he did.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: He did at school.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we have that in common.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: My son passed in Colorado Springs outside Fort Carson in auto accent.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I always like to connect the dots whenever I can.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um coming up on six years in December.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and we can connect one more too.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my son was uh a bit of a food critic, and uh he was very critical of the food served at Colorado College.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna put that on Don because Don was there before they had fire, uh but uh yeah before they had fire.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, uh uh for and and I don't know if I mentioned uh, but Bob's son uh was named Carson.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so and he he died um in March of 2023, and Bob joined the group that summer, the summer cycle, uh, which I thought was pretty amazing that he found us that quickly.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Bob and I were our lost children about about exactly a year apart.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he I remember seeing him on the first first call we joined together and him talking, and I I could just see he was just just shattered.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it was um and I I remember being in the same space as as he was you know a year prior.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he and I actually got together pretty soon for jumping topics here, but he and I um met in person because he had some business in Sacramento and he reached out and we met up for lunch, and uh it was you know, he was so he was the first person of this group that I got to meet in person, and I think I was it it was the first time he had met anyone as well.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And both of us recognized that that at that moment it was like it was just a normal conversation.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time you could meet someone that maybe you didn't know all that well, and there were no no landmines or or uh questions with subtext or whatever, you could just have a a relaxed conversation, and you could go there, and we could we could get into the the grief, the loss, the you know, impacts, things you're dealing with, and it was all it was all good, it was all fine, and it was it really um and I I remember we took a picture and sent it to sent it to Dawn.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh it was um and I think you Dawn, you said it was the first time anyone had ever met up in person like that.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: From one of my groups for sure.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of power in that.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember we had a guest on our podcast, Chris Reed, who's a dear friend of mine, lost his son, CJ.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I had mentored him for um probably two years at this point.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was down in Birmingham, Alabama, two years ago, and I was like, hey brother, you want to get together and have dinner?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we shut down the Outback Steakhouse.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we just sat there and talked and talked and talked, but there was just no replacement for the in-person and getting to know him.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went down last year and we did the same thing, and it was just like pick up where we left off and obviously talking through the year and uh phone conversations.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's like I think I was three weeks out on my grief journey, and a dear friend of mine, Tim Jabin, um, lost his son Ty.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he contacted me and I'll never forget a comment he said.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Sympathy is nice, but empathy is a gift.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the sympathy is everybody on the outside who is like, I am so sorry that you've had this loss.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry for what you're going through.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: But empathy is what you guys have.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I have.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's that there's this understanding.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's there's a little further empathy in the fact that maybe amongst suicide loss survivors, there's another further empathy in the fact that maybe you had your child were both at college at the time, kind of like we were talking, Jerry, with just kind of the branching out the the more specifics.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the overall loss of a child is what that empathy is.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like you guys definitely had that uh with Bob Baranak.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what made him different in the group?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what I think one of you explained that he was kind of the glue in the group.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what made him sticky as the glue?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, interesting.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh probably after John, after Bob had passed, I think we were at the Memorial John, when we we were spending some time with his hearing from a lot of his friends, uh we started it started to click that Bob was a tremendous triathlete and an athlete.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he knew how to train.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he he had that kind of uh it was it was in him like to to do do the work.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it became pretty clear that the group was his work uh for this grief, and building that was really important.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I get that right, John.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: That was kind of it we realized it was it was in his just he was a trainer and he looked at it like that way.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can tell he was a trainer and he liked to get people going.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I and you heard that in this other stories that people said at the at the memorial, at his memorial, what were that you know, okay, this is what we're doing.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, guys, you know, we're gonna you know, people who are gonna train to do a race, okay, this is what we're doing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is Sunday, this is what we're doing.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And get he get you know had that in him, like motivating and getting people to do things to kind of rally the troops.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the sorry, I don't but I think when Don when Bob and I met up and had this in-person meeting, and he has repeatedly said it was the first time he'd had a conversation since losing his son that that that oh this this could be kind of normal.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can feel I can feel fairly normal, you know, again.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was it lit a fire under him to kind of share that with everybody else.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, we talked about his leadership, and when we decided as a group, hey, we should do an in-person meetup, Bob was really into getting the details and found you know, found resources.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's in San Diego, and we're setting this thing up in Connecticut for various reasons.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And Bob was like tracking down like our yoga instructor and things like that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: For the he didn't track her, he didn't track her down.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: He found probably the best yoga instructor.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the only yoga instructor I've ever known.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, but she was the best, she is the best.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And the only he he he was a natural leader.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that's what it boils down to.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know, it's something that you guys probably aren't aware of, but um generally almost after every meeting, maybe not every meeting that we had, he would contact me and say, you know, Don, I thought this went really well, or maybe we could do this a little differently.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and I loved it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, all right, he cares enough to to you know tell me to reach out and say, hey, you know, we could maybe let's try this.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And let's I have a little confession, uh Don.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you may have not have seen the first draft of those uh critiques.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So Jerry had a hand in that too.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you can you you you you can thank me.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: They were uh awesome.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but no, he was he was very thoughtful.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, uh go back to the stickiness.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: It it was it was he he was getting as well as giving.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he knew that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that that's the that's how training does, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Training, you give and you get stronger, and that's where he made that connection, and he was all about that.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, John had had hooked up with him, and he loved it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I was out in San Diego shortly after that, and I was there for a friend's mother's memorial, and I didn't reach out to Bob.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And he was so mad at me.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Next time I was in San Diego, I spent the day with him.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, like I took some time and it was really great, and we did we did that, and it it didn't take too long, but that memorial was kind of tough because it was a lot of family, and I was very close to the family.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: But he the one thing that was right is like I I could have found time for a coffee um in in retrospect, and I I immediately knew that I should have.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we did eventually have an in-person uh where it was just he and I, and he took me around and uh he actually had a little bit of a uh a routine.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: He took every he took all us to the same places when he, if you if you visited him in San Diego, and it was really it was it was great.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh it was kind of an awesome visit.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really uh the definition of vested, you know, somebody that's vested in your life.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I get asked all the, and this is not about me, I promise, um, but I guess asked all the time, it's like, man, how can you do this?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you lead this group, you lead that group, you do this podcast.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And John, to your comment at the beginning, you were saying that Bob was a wreck that first year um in a mess.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's where I was.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I, when you're talking, Jerry, about give and get, um, I get way more out of these podcasts than our listeners do just by listening, by learning.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd probably be dead now, uh honestly.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I kind of feel that way if I hadn't put the work in that I have and and led the groups I have.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, it was my own lifeline in the way that I was able to give back.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know Bob, but I could definitely see a lot of that uh from what I'm hearing in uh from you guys, just in his character with that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: For our listeners, because I also don't uh was not part of this group, and I also did not did not uh have the privilege to know Bob.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a sudden death.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I believe there was a heart uh issue.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like he had cancer and was passing away for five years, and then you know it was a slow goodbye, anything like this.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: He was 59 years old, to my understanding, and it was just instant.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, how did you guys find out about Bob passing?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: What were the emotions that went through you at that point when you found out?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and and if I'm not mistaken, he was working out in the garden, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: When it was happened.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I uh yeah, I believe a lemon tree is the culprit, uh but he was which he which he cared deeply about and uh about his fruit trees, and but he was he was mucking around with a lemon tree.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was sudden.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Greg, you're 100% right.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was sudden and it happened very quickly.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Bob had made plans.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Bob loved to make plans.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: So he was um, as Ed mentioned, he was a triathlete, but he was an Iron Man.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: He had actually competed at uh in Kona, had qualified a couple of times, um, even after a uh kind of a long hiatus from competing.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But he also had uh been at the first Iron Man in Lake Placid, which is where I'm located.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he was very proud of that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And he had uh decided after hearing me talk about um I find volunteering, I find being active very helpful with grief and finding things that need you more than you know, you need to that you don't have to think about just where you gotta act is a is a great reprieve um from thought sometimes.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's helpful.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: You can't do it all the time.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I volunteered at the Iron Man and I would wake up uh before the sun was up and go out on the lake and uh work uh with a team of kayakers to uh provide uh assistance to the participants at Iron Man.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Bob had decided that uh this was something he was gonna do.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he had made a plan.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: He was bringing his wife Kim.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um they were gonna come stay.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he would uh he would he would volunteer at an Iron Man that he had once competed in.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um he had bought tickets and he was making arrangements one Monday morning in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: May um Kim, his wife, was reaching out to me through his phone saying it's not him, it's Kim.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have a few minutes?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Can we speak?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was um I was on my way to I think like Providence, Rhode Island.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: The strangest thing is uh uh I'm on the highway and I like okay, yeah, Kim, um I got good signal.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um let's talk.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I knew she was in California, and she told me what had happened and that the uh they lost them the night before quite suddenly.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And what happened at that point?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: When what did you experience, Jerry?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh uh you know, it's it's you go we go back to that shock.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating enough, I was on on a piece of highway where I had been when I found out about my son, which um I was like, gosh, this is like crazy.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going this way anymore.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can't.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um nothing one thing has nothing to do with the other, though.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it's just disbelief.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I you know, immediately, you know, the the empathy kicks in for Kim and understanding, and then you start to think about what does this mean?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And how can my my first instinct was, what can I do for her?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um Bob had lost his son, Carson, as John had mentioned, and um he was really the the group was important to him, but over the course of the year just prior, he had lost his father and Kim had lost her father.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I am my immediate thought is my goodness, um uh Kim and and her daughter Brooke, this is this has got to be quite the thing.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what can I do?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I don't need I'd never talked to her before.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was looking forward to meeting her.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh she says, Would you call the guys?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it would be really important for Bob for them to know.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, There you go, I got something to do.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I got on the phone and everyone said, How can I help?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: What can I do?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, you know what?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna plow through it because honestly, organizing who's calling who and what, and then you know, it's like I I basically ended up calling everybody in our group and letting them know what had happened.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and as we all know, it's like when you start to talk about it, is when you start your your grief starts, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: You start to heal.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so here I'm kind of over and over explaining that we just lost a good friend, a friend that we didn't have, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago, four years ago, you didn't have some guys, you know.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was it was the beginning of another grief journey.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little different than than a child.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we don't haven't had that time, but it was I was happy to have a task, and um, I had a lot of thought about.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: I thought about Bob quite a bit.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, you know, a mutual friend that none of we wouldn't know each other, and we wouldn't have known him if it hadn't been for the loss of our child, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, this loss, mutual loss, brought us all together, and then we lose, you know, one of uh uh basically a leader.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he was a leader.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had uh we had somebody in Don in my circle on the TAPS uh tragedy assistance program for survivors uh circle, Matt Dowd, who passed away this year.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um I wasn't as close to Matt, but yet we would banter back and forth on the instant messaging during the calls, and uh just a real stand-up guy.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the same thing happened where like the chain of communication just started exploding, where I started hearing from two or three people, and then I would forward it on.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I I think there's just something to be said about that closeness, um, because that's not in everyday life um that uh that happens.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: John, how about you?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where where were you when you found out?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: How did how did it affect you?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I well, my my it's a weird, it is an unusual relationship.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously we all met because of our our loss, and you know, I didn't really know Bob that well.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we had an intimacy and an openness because of our common trauma bond, and which is a really unique relationship.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I if people who work in, you know, dangerous occupations or soldiers or whatever, people have had a unique uh horrific experience.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: You bond and you have a unique relationship, you know.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't we hadn't known each other that long.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um certainly I cared for him.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any um but I don't have like details of his past, or I hadn't, you know, you know, it's not like an old friend that you knew from high school that you've you know had you know many stories together.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's a unique thing, but in these groups you open yourself up, you you expose yourself and you're vulnerable to people in a way that you're just not in ordinary life with people who aren't like close family or your spouse or something like that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the losses is it was big, but I'm you know I'm almost embarrassed because like you know, I know his family has suffered tremendously, and I you know, I don't want to you know uh take that um take that from them.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: The the but the it's the risk in these in any relationships, but in these groups, you you know, you do you open yourself up and you're putting yourself at risk and you have to trust everybody to to be honest and supportive and and you know hold you with the same regard you hold them.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so you know, it's it it was a shocking loss.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And Bob and I had been talking about um him running again.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: He was starting to think, you know, one one thing that Bob and I had in common was a history of endurance sports.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I hadn't done any triathlons, but done a lot of uh running and ultra running and trail trail races.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I understood that mindset, although the Iron Man triathletes are nuts um in that they their whole life is wrapped up in training.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but we had that you know uh uh understanding each other.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he and I had just been talking recently.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: He was excited he had done a 5k uh on a uh vacation fairly recently, and he was you know excited about doing something again.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it was certainly shocking.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean losing anybody who's fairly young, younger than me, so um it's inappropriate uh psychologically.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh yeah, I like that I was you know you feel like you want to do something when when you lose somebody and help help out.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And Jerry did a tremendous job of personally reaching out and talking to everybody in the group, um, and being sort of our main communications channel with his family.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and just know that um just I just want to clarify there is no level of comparison as far as you know, his spouse is grieving harder than you, or this or that.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, with that relationship, you'd expect that, or just even amongst you and Jerry and Don, as far as who knew him better or who you know took it the hardest.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that comparison game is a lose-lose situation, in my opinion.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is an element that I think once you lose a child, I'm just gonna say this generically, that uh things tend to shock you uh a little less, uh, in my opinion, than before.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you have gone through trauma, like all of us have, and you encounter that, um, things might not be as um uh devastating or as uh lack of hope you know for the future uh type thing if you're you know working through it um with that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Don, how um go ahead.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned something uh about comparison, comparison, and last night uh one of the dads in uh my group uh said that comparison is the thief of joy.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: It steals joy from and and I I heard that and I was like, well, there's some truth to that.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I one time I mean I have this example of the the comparison issue.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in a another group, uh uh men's discussion group.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't about grief.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like this particular conversation was about uh about grief of losing parents and uh the subject, you know, we were different people were talking, and this one guy said, I'm I feel self-conscious about talking about losing my mother or the grief of losing my mother because Bernie, of course, what happened to Bernie?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Bernie was Bernie Marks of Blessed Memory, who um was uh a Holocaust survivor and lost his and his uh he he was put in Auschwitz as a at a like 11 years old or something, and his lost his mother and sister were murdered there, and his he and his father survived, but he lost his entire family.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And Ernie, to his credit, responded, he said, you know, nothing that I have experienced takes away any of your suffering.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: My you can't, you know, nothing, you know, my experience has nothing to do with your experience, and each each person's suffering has their own.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I figure, okay, if Bernie can say that, then I can, you know, I can kind of take that.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it just takes somebody giving you permission, you know, to know that.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like it's true.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, something that um I know his family uh you know obviously grieving uh the loss very heavily, but uh they have to um be appreciative of the fact that that we all love Bob, still do, um and you know that we're grieving him too, that you know, he he made an impact.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, here we're dedicating this episode because of this person.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and um I know there's other things going on too uh to honor him.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and he was, he was just a special person, really special.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it sure sounds like it.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's uh there's a cliche, you know, comment that people make that uh, you know, this is a club that none of us wanted to be a part of.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't disagree with the premise behind that, but I would say that, man, I am so glad that I am in this club with men that have allowed me, John, to your point, I was thinking the word vulnerable whenever you said it, uh, that allow me to be authentic and vulnerable.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Don and I were just talking recently uh on a previous podcast just about how we are better people.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's really hard for people to reconcile that, whether they're going through uh child loss or if they haven't experienced loss, it's almost impossible for them to reconcile that we're a better person.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: And clear to clarify that what you're saying, we're better versions of ourselves now than than we were before.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: We're not we're not better than anyone else.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um leave it to Don to clarify that because I uh wouldn't even think of that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: But no, uh definitely not better than others, but it's it's literally the fact that when I look at um we do we talk a lot about before uh and after our child died, as far as those dates.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Everything for me is is like a linear, it's like B C or AD on the you know uh timeline of of society.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like before David died, December 23rd, 2020, and after David died.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be talking about something with my wife.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, now was that before David uh or after?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when I look at our lives, a lot of times our lives are really shaped by the trauma we've gone through, if we allow it.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I like to always refer back to the Disney Princess Bride movie.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a matter of, you know, sweet Wesley going through the fire swamp.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's rodents of unusual size, there's a fire swamp, and you come out the other side.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: You might be a little chewed on, a little worse for wear, but you survived it and you came out the other side.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, so I I kind of wanted to take us down a different path with Bob.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: In the fact, and this is this is one of the questions we had written down.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I do want to clarify up front, I don't know why I'm talking with my hands on this podcast, um, but I did want to clarify up front, we just got done talking about um it's dangerous to compare and to play the comparison game.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: However, um we're almost taking this like a case study in the fact that this isn't the first time this has happened.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first time we've discussed this on this podcast.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but how is the loss of a friend who also is experiencing the same loss as far as loss of a child?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: How is that different than what you have experienced uh with child loss yourself?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I I I think the I want to step back slightly first because it relates.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you're talking about the better versions of ourselves.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Our group has discussed this in various groups about we bristle at the idea of silver linings and that concept, but you can't ignore the fact that you have grown, that we have grown.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's two parts of it, and one is the men, and I'm talking about men because we're all men, um, the men who have chosen to attend these groups, the men who've sought these groups out are already like growing and they're already thinking differently.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And because that's not typically my nature.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hate therapists, I hate therapy.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I you know, I I sought the group out, and and so everybody there, you know, that's the first step, seeking that out, and then being there, sticking it out, and meeting people and supporting each other, and opening yourself up and responding in kindness to other people who are opening up and being vulnerable with you, we're already different, and so losing somebody is gonna be different.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna respond differently to a loss, even if a similarly horrific loss is gonna be different or gonna be less because it's like when you have a child, how hard like the first kid, you're just like, oh my god, this is you know, I'm I'm exhausted, I'm we're never gonna get through this, whatever.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: The second kid, you already know this is a fleeting, fleeting period of time that the real hard, you know, just exhausting part of raising a kid and the you know lack of sleep and all that stuff.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know there's like an end point, you know you're gonna work through this and it's gonna be better.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's already this is sort of the same thing with you know, we are we are starting from a different place.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're not the people we were.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's such a great point, John.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: Such a great point, and it's true.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, uh when I lost Josh, I had a lot of previous grief in like already in my life.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh one of the things that I knew I needed to do was to reach out right away.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and because I knew that I wasn't going to be able to do this by myself.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: The and and when I think about um losing Bob, I feel as if like the one of the things that helped me uh with losing Bob was that we already had this band of brothers.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: What's that?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: My audio's gone.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I've gotcha.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um you're wrong.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: I uh so the the um band of brothers the the feeling of brotherhood that that we could all lean on each other, and you know, we had an interesting experience.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: We've uh we've gotten together in person twice.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Once was uh last year and Bob was there, and then a second time this year, and Bob wasn't.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like um it this might be helpful to talk about uh the the difference and and how we felt uh being together without Bob there.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and I'm kind of throwing that out as a as a question to you guys.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, he I felt like, and I don't think we really flushed the the whole Bob not being there out, but you know, it there's an absence.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's uh you know, and much like you know, the when you lose your child, it it's a big absence, right?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, um they would you had hopes and dreams for them as well, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: And all that goes away.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um Bob not being there, he was absent.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: That there was a seat at the table that that was no longer uh no it was empty, you know, would be empty forever, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um he wasn't coming back.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, he was he was still with us because of what he meant to the group and his lasting impression.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and the fact that you know he he really wanted to have that in person the first year.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: I remember there was another individual in the group that said, threw it down.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Fred said, Are we doing this or not?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that was it.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: We did it.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we I made the reservations at the hotel, Bob booked the yoga, my only yoga instructor, and um and we made plans.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, so him not being there really became motivation to make sure it happened too.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um because go ahead, Don.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, I was just gonna say, did did I felt his presence there.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: Did did you guys at all?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I think I feel his presence somewhat every every day that like he's not in my thoughts every day, but like if I think about him, I always feel his presence.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I know what where he what he would say in in these circumstances of you know, with uh as far as the group goes.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um we learned a lot about Bob after he passed, John and I, and uh were at his memorial, and you know, we were like, Oh, geez, I you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: I realize now why we connected.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, John, the running.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was I had cycling.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: I did a lot of cycling, you know, which is a big part of the what Bob was.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I all of a sudden was like, Wow, I wish I had done that.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wish we had done that.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: But he was he was in an interesting spot.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't even talk about that as much as when his his friends spoke about how he was just would, you know, just climb up this mountain and they all barely held held on, you know.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, I guess his presence is there in this circumstance of our grief, uh the group, the band of the brothers, the brotherhood, you know, and you do notice that he's not there.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um eventually I'll open that bottle of wine that he left me, and I'll really notice that he's not there because there'll be a lot more for me.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh but that does that leads me to the one other thing about Bob.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: But Bob was always making the next plan.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't done with today.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: He wanted tomorrow as well.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like he squeezed the pulp out of life.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good way to describe it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and that could bring you back to that's that's the give and get of training mentality, right?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I put it on the line, I exhaust myself, I get stronger from it.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that vulnerability when you come back to that, you know.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I always I I've always had a real hard time with the gift that you get out of grief.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yes, we're more empathetic, we're a better version of ourselves, but it's not a gift because it had a price.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: We we this was thrust upon us, yeah, and now we're doing the best we can.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: So here's here's how I explain it.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the way I explain it, it's the way I think.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've said this numerous times.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: We're given a poo sandwich over here, shit sandwich, whatever you want to call it.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you could sit here and you could just squeeze it in your hand and you can smell it all day.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: You could take a bite of it if you choose to.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: But over here, you're given a pearl of great price of wisdom.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I understand what you're saying about the gift, but it's like, which one am I going to focus on?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I too I choose to focus on the wisdom and the gift and the empathy and the loving harder, the understanding than I do this um this poo sandwich and to focus on that all the time.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to take us in a different uh realm.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have this down as a question.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that just kind of popped in my head.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to challenge each each of you.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to have an answer out of each of you if you feel comfortable.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it really seems to me, not knowing Bob, but from hearing from the three of you, that Bob Baronek left a legacy.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the question for each of you, uh, and we'll start with Don, because I like putting him on the spot, is what legacy are you leaving behind for others?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just an epithet that's going to be on your gravestone, uh, or you know, that somebody's gonna read at your um, you know, your uh um funeral, but what what legacy are you leaving behind?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: I hope, I hope that it's a legacy um of love um compassion and just uh constant learning that um I have evolved in uh from uh from my grief, you know, um turning grief into growth.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that's why part of the the the reason that we named it uh so um and and but my entire life I feel as if I've thrived as I was learning.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the legacy that that I want to leave that just keep learning, keep stretching your comfort zone, because that's uh what I do not daily, but uh pretty often.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, doing starting this podcast was a huge stretch for me.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um doing this episode um is different.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: And whenever I'm doing something different, it's a stretch.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: So um just I I guess, you know, but but everything um should be done with love and and that's uh that's truly love is the legacy that uh that I wanna I wanna lead.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Actually I love it.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Jerry, how about you?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh and and to to Don's point it's constantly evolving.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I hope that I've been a brother to others.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um I hope to more than just the brothers that I was given by blood, but that I've expanded that and um and and it's it's it's not secular.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's uh not a brother the being a brother to me is being a um a compassionate friend um that that you know really does understand uh or and takes the time to listen and understand.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's today.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, uh you ask me again next week, Greg, I'll give you a different answer.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's okay.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: It morphs.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: John, how about you?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I have a similar reservation as Jerry, and that your legacy is usually decided by the people that you know after you're after you're gone.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: The um if I have a if I have uh a choice, um I am currently obsessed with the idea of making connections and bringing especially men together.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm the president of my temple brotherhood for that.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big motivation for that.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: I have I see a great need for again, particularly men, to talk to each other and share experiences.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had just the way we hold things close and and don't reveal of ourselves makes us I think a weaker in a way.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the um, you know, when regarding uh specifically grief, I when a prior guest on your podcast talked about you need to find your tribe.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is that that resonated with me in that I found you know, this group and other other uh people I spend time with are just it's just tremendously helpful.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I hope if I leave a leave a legacy, it's been my work and trying to trying to make connections and bring people together.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um but again, it's decided by people after I'm gone.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: So no, I totally get that.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I think if you would permit me, I would also like to comment.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm coming up on six years of losing my son.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: About five years ago, I formed a group here in my local town of Shelbyville, Kentucky, with uh six other dads who have lost children.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so seven of us for the past five years have gotten together and they're all different um you know time spans as far as loss.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: One of the guys, um he was 10 years out whenever we started, and it was like day one for him because he'd never talked to anybody about his grief journey, hadn't started his grief journey, had hit the pause button for 10 years and just broke weeping, crying, didn't know.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, What's going on?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: He kept saying that you're further along than I am.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, we're going out next Friday.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: We try to go out once a month, and uh one of the guys next Thursday is his eight-year remembrance day of his daughter passing, and the other guy is next Friday is nine years.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I sent a text this morning to the one guy who's nine years said, Hey, you cool with going out on the day?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Please, I would absolutely love that.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it in honor of you know, Eva, his uh the other guy's daughter, and then his son, Ryan.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's like, and it's funny, not funny, ha ha, but ironic in the fact that we have tried to grow the group.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's been so unfortunately, there's been so many other dads that we've reached out to, and we can't grow the group.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've been inclusive trying to get people to come in, and we've kind of come to a conclusion, it's like, man, this is our tribe, and we're okay with it.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it is just what has caused each of us to survive and not just to survive, but to thrive again.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's so much to be said when you're talking about this group, um, whether it was coping after suicide that you had originally that you met with, whether it was branching off with Bob and having that group, meeting in person, it's it's really hard to explain to somebody on the outside, it's not like an Elks Club or Koanis or, you know, even a you know a church Sunday school.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that is like so embedded in our souls and the the camaraderie um that uh it's irreplaceable.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, Jerry, when you said that there's a hole, there's a gap uh with Bob not being there, it's not that you have to focus on him every day.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the it's the lack thereof, it's the absence and to acknowledge that.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think legacy, I I lead a monthly dad call um across the nation.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there was a couple of guys that are really struggling on the last month's call.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I got text right afterwards, like, hey, Greg, you can't do it all.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can we get their telephone number?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: Can we reach out to them?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Two or three people.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that to me is what it's all about.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's paying it forward and trying to help others to replicate what you're doing in uh in living a productive life and being a productive member of society and helping others and Don to your point loving along the way, not being judgmental.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are coming up on time.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask what other questions are.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just throw one other thing out there on that?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: And because you you you nailed something that's really important.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we all um we we have a group and we get together once a month, and we now gotten together once a year in person, but we have relationships amongst ourselves that are developed, and it can be texts, it can be calls, it can be it can be, you know, there's a lot of banter that goes on.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I know you had you had Andy Miller on, it's unbelievable you got him off the diamond, you know, like uh the guy is you know the oldest baseball player ever, um, complains that they keep pumping him up to an older league, but you know, then we have you know, we have we have these these personalities and these relationships that we've developed.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the keys to a tribe is and if that's what we want to call ourselves, um is that you you need to that's that's critical.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: So when when when someone's reaching out to you saying saying you can't do it all, let me let can we jump in, that that's the best thing in the world.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's how we got where we are.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's how we've developed this brotherhood is is by because you can't do it at a group level.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's why it's hard to get people, you know.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: We've said, look, if if someone wants to join us, you know, we'll we'll we'll bring them in.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the smoothest because they don't have that history with the group, and that takes time and that takes a little work.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the the last it's just it's a funny thing that we've kind of hit it around a little bit, and and one of the keys to this whole grief thing to me has been, and uh I'm not gonna bore you with the whole thing, but I actually wrote about it at one point.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a great line in Shawshank Redemption where um where uh Duchesne turns to uh no, I can't remember, uh, but Morgan, the Morgan Freeman character, and says it's really it's really simple.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: You either get busy living or you get busy dying.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes like that takes me back to your sandwich choice, yeah, Greg.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you choose living, um, and everybody's gonna choose it differently, though.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why sometimes it doesn't stick for everyone to do with the way we're doing it.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: But what I can tell you is it's worked for us, and that's that's why we keep doing it.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's good.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Don, I'm gonna give you the last, last word, but before I do that, John, do you have any last words?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we appreciate it.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Don?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I want to thank each of you for being here.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I just want to you know say, Bob, uh I felt your presence through this podcast.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh thank you grateful that uh that uh you were in our lives um and that I believe you'll continue to be.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: So um that's a message to Bob.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh to our listeners.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I hope that you uh gain some some knowledge and some wisdom uh from uh these guests that we've had on today.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I know I have, I I learn from each and every person every day, um, but especially uh those in grief uh because we all grieve in uniquely, individually, um, but uh there are a lot of similarities too.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: And when you create a a tribe um like Jerry and John and the rest of the crew um have done that connection.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and John uh when you mentioned connection, I was like, yeah, that's that's the key.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we got to stay connected.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: So um thank you.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh thank you both for being here and thank you to our listeners for for listening.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: John and Jerry is an absolute pleasure meeting both of you.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: And Don, it's always a pleasure, as always.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you, everybody, until next time.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.