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Book Club: Salt Baby · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you protection of iHeart Radio, and welcome to
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: another edition of Feminist book Club. But before we start,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I just realized, Annie, are you wearing a Lama shirt?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Is that a Lama Mama sweatshirt? Like I just Twitter,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at you in our screen. I'm realizing you're
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: there's an animal, is it? Okay? I want you to know, Listeners.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I'm staring at her Lama sweater very hard right now
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: because I'm just real Ama sweater. I bought it in Peru.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It is the warmest sweater I have, and people compliment
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: me on this. It is the goofiest looking fuzzy sweater. Listeners,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: it is very goofy, but people compliment me on this
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: all the time. Nice Twitter. Like the way the angle is.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I almost thought it was a poncho, which is why
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I started staring closer, and I was like, there's something.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: There's a square on its back. I'm just trying to
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: figure out what all it is. It's kinda there's a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: lot of things happening, Okay, alright, alright, listeners, I hope
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: you have a picture of what and he's wearing because
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I am definitely not as cute as she is right now.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, she's got a lama sweater on. But anyway,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with this, but I just
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: had to I just had to bring this up, all right.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so we are doing a little something different
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: for our Feminist book Club because you know, we'd like
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: to switch it up, you know, Um and I decided
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: we would do a whole play instead instead of just
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: a book. But we should tell you it is a
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: very short play. So if you are seeking to do
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: a Native or indigenous play and you just wanted to,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: it's kind of a one act. It's not a complete
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: one act, but it could be. Again, it's about like
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: what sixty pages long? Yeah? Yeah? And on the act
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: did you notice that they have a recipe? Yes, I
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: want to make this recipe. I feel like I'm building
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: up this play, but I want to I want to
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: try this recipe. By the way, also, before we start,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: any did you do place? Have you done place? I
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: know you've acted and you've been in movies. Have you
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: been in place? I have? I have? And actually, if
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: you know, we had longer, I have a lot of stories.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: I have I have not. I was in drama in
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: high school, which I know we've talked about, and I
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: acted in a few plays. Then I was not great.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I was very shy and I couldn't project my voice
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: very well. Um. And it was the type of thing
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: where you can tell someone's nervous, so it makes you nervous,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: you know, like not comfortable watching them because you can
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: tell they're so uncomfortable and nervous. And then when I
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: started to pursue acting, like more seriously, when I got
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: older and out of high school and college, I took
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: classes that would culminate in plays and I've done I
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: did some that would really really jerk. And then my
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: drama teacher was like, I know, with the challenge for you,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: and he gave me a role and I had to
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: have a Brooklyn accent and it was a comedy and
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I was like, you monster. You know, I'm scared of
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: comedy in accents, and he was like, here we go.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: I actually excelled at comedy. So yeah, we talked about drama.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I did drama in high school. That's the only time
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I kind of I really missed it. Um. But I'm
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: also very lazy and don't like to memorize lines. This
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: is where I'm like, I know, I couldn't do well
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: because I would flub all of my auditions because I
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: wouldn't memorize it. I was a great actor, better at memorizing.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: But I am a part of the Thespian society. Yo,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: who's with me? Who's because my first play I was
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: a stage manager and that is so much work. She
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: just really thought my teacher Ms. Miller shout out r
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I P. She was an amazing teacher, my favorite teacher.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: She was like, you're so organized and detail. Let me
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: put you as a stage manager. Having no experience in theater.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: That was my first play, and I was like, what
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: is happening? And it happened to be a competition play.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I think we actually scored third on that one though,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so it was rough. It was rough, but
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I was in Noises Off and that was probably one
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: of my favorite players to do. And it's really complicated
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: with a lot of like meta types of things. Um,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: and my character was quite funny, I thought, and then
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: even to the point that people complimented me and said,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it was at this moment that saw you
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: get into your character. You became that character, and I
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: was like what. I was a little confused because I
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, if you say so, sure, Um, but
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: I loved it. Shout out to all my drama people
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: from my high school, Filmore High School. You know who
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: you are. They don't listen to this. Why am I
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: saying this? Um? Shout out to my niece. She's my
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: youngest niece who is a part of that same theater program,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: and she's working on trying to get into the Thespian
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Society as well. Very proud of her. So yes, not
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to get myself airs, oh you should, but I do
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: have my name on the plaque in my high school.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: No one else knows there you go. But you know,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: I love plays. I love the setups. I love reading
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the books and reading the place because it felt like
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: real life. It made more sense to me sometimes than
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: books do with all the descriptures, because it kind of
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: gives you direction and then you you fill it into
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: it yourself. And and I love that build up, which
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: is a great thing to this play. And I won't lie.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: So y'all, we are doing a short play called Salt Baby,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: which was written by Phelan Johnson, who is a part
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: of the Mohawk and Tuscarora from Six Nations, Grand River Territory,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful play. But it kind of felt
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: like like if I was to write a play, I
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: feel like it would be similar to this, you know
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: what I mean. I'mre gonna talk about themes about it
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: at all, but just like her expressions and her her
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: immediate like reactions to things and the defensiveness was like, yeah, okay,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: that's too real. This is too real. But I really
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: loved this whole aspect, and it felt really nice to
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: read it in this format because it's been so long,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: and I do again, I miss that kind of uh
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: read throughs mm hmmm, I miss it? Do you miss it?
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I do miss it? I do. I think it was
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: something that really I actually feel this way about podcasting too,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: though performance in general. Anytime I would read a play,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I've had so much stress about it and I'd be
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: so worried about it, but then when I would do it,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, I love this thought. Yes, yes, I
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: don't feel that way about podcasting because I can't hide
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: behind a character. I really wish we could. We need
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: to try that sometime. Let's be completely let's press find
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: each other. Oh no, ter, oh my god. But yeah,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: so we are doing a play today again. It is
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: by Phelan Johnson UM who was from the Six Stations
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Grand River Territory believe in Canada, but you know, territories
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: are a little different. And as we talked about what
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: she has done in this play, yes, she explores her identity,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: how as a white presenting First Nations woman, she tries
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to dig deeper into her family history and her connection
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: to her heritage. And it is it is a beautiful
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: till it is. Um. It's also funny. Yes, it's very
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: very funny. I think it's spot on with a lot
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: of uh when you're that age, which was like young
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: college age, kind of the the dialogue that you have. UM,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I thought nailed it. There were certain it was great
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: in describing things and painting pictures, and there were certain
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: parts where it's like I wish I could have seen
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: this play because I could tell like, I bet that's
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: a really cool, simple but really cool visual cue. Right, So,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: if any listeners have seen it, it's been staged a
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: few times. I did get to see a couple of
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: clips by one school that performed it, and it was
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: super interesting to see. Yeah, yeah, And like we said,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: it's really short, so this one's gonna be probably a
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: shorter episode, but there is a lot of ground covered
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: um in it for sure. So Johnson studied at George
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Brown Theater School and it has been in the theater
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: world for a while with several plays and protections under
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: her name. When she was interviewed about her play Salt Baby,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: she said, storytelling is storytelling. It's part of us. Six
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Nations for instance, has a long history of pageant theater, right,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: And this was in reference to like them talking about
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: theater versus storytelling and what this looked like, and then
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: kind of a European standard of theater as she's like, well,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: we've been around a lot longer, and of course they have,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: right exactly. And when she was asked about why she
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: wrote Salt Baby, she said, I couldn't afford therapy. It's
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: not it's just me that I wrote it. I'm grateful
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: to my younger self. It's harsh in some ways when
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: you're at twenty you have stuff to process. I'm thinking'
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: more over my now, But it's strange looking back and
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: seeing herself and I totally totally agree it is when
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: you go back and read something, which is kind of
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: what we're doing on spenty fiction, but like when you
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: it's such a snapshot of what you were going through
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: at the time and you don't realize it maybe or
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: you didn't know how to deal with it back then,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, I didn't. I wasn't dealing with
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: this correctly. I didn't. I was trying to work my
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: way through this. It is really interesting and this this play,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: you can feel it like you can feel how honest
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: it is um. And like I said, from that time
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: of her life, right, I'm not gonna lie again. I
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: really wish I could get it back into my zanga
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: site so I can see my own to cement this
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: so desperately. All right, so let's get into the play.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: We're introduced to Salt Baby, an alligator, a white boy
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: um on their first date, and it goes as expected,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: a white boy asking a native person and about her
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: history for a lesson in the Mohawk language and awkwardly
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: joking about being just white. Of course we're going to
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: dig they burn into that in a bed, but I've
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: definitely been there, been there, um not native, being Korean.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: We cut to seeing her grandfather during the state in
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: the background, so it's like kind of like the ancestral
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: voice talking, uh, talking to her and sometimes with her,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: so they're kind of say the same thing. He continues
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: to be a background voice again in an ancestral voice
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that comes back, yeah, which is one of the things
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: I was talking to you about when I'm saying, like,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: I bet visually this is really interesting and like vocally
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's very clear and very interesting. So
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: we later meet her father, who still lives on the
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: reservation and is an avid hunter, a proud Native man.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Their relationship is loving and nurturing, but still a bit tense,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: as her looking deeper into her own DNA and identity
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: makes him uncomfortable. UM. Later we see that her an
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Alligator have moved forward in their relationship, and a part
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: of their relationship is conversation of him not understanding her
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: crisis and identity. UM. She soon decides to seek out
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: more information on her ancestry and her own genetic makeup.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: She's always said that she was three fours or over
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: half Native, but her physical appearance, which is white presenting,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: makes her wonder about that UM, and we see Salt
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Baby continuing her journey through meditation, a psychic, and finally
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: an actual DNA test. I don't think we actually ever
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: get results though. Um. Throughout this time she's struggling in
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: her relationship with Alligator and how she wants to make
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: sure that she can hold onto her native identity and
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: again it passed it on to her children. Also, he's
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: very wide so making problematic comments and a little bit
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: of micro aggression towards her as well. Um, And here
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: we see some awkward interactions with the partner's parents. It's
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: really yeah, we have drunkenness and fighting and again uncomfortable
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: micro aggressions from the white parents, which is like who
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: wants to be around a couple of fighting um, and
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: then the macho nous from the Salt Baby's father literally
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: comes out with bloody hands from cutting up a d are.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, interesting and interesting reactions. Unfortunately, they
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: soon break up and she tries to dig more into
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: her native traditions. They talk about different things and on
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: dates with native men. One specific date doesn't go so well. Oh,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: she runs into the white boyfriend, has a conversation with
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: her and the grandfather, the ancestral grandfather talking about Oh
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: he wasn't that bad, was he? The end? Yeah, yeah,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: and I think that's she has. That's when she talks
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: with her father about which, by the way, the white
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: boyfriend alligator, I stole her father's toothbrush, yes, so she
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: could get DNA from it from the test, and and
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: then and end she decides not to go through with
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the DNA test because her father she just realized it's like, oh, no,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: you've told me this, You've told me this stories and
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: he tells her the story of why she's called salt baby.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And so it does have a lot of awkward social
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: interactions in it, right, I think, Um, again, there's still
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: several things to this. Again she does finally, the father
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: does finally relent and this is something you need, I'm
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: here for you whatever whatnot. We know that the mother
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: is not present. She left, and she says that she
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: went on to be more white. Um. So it was
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: very interesting conversation. Yeah, And again this is part of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: her like identity crisis and trying to figure this out,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: but still very uh serious about clinging to her ancestry
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and her and her native background, which was really interesting. Again,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: if you have time it's literally like a fatherly what
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: a thirty minute read if that? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: it's it's quick. It's kind of hard to get a
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: hold of. We had a bit of a trouble finding
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: it tracking it down, but we did it. We did it.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: It was important that we read this because it was like,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: this is something that's interesting, and yeah, so there are
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: there are some themes, uh, And of course we want
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to get into that and have a little bit of
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: discussion because as much of her the play it is,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: it is a conversation about her going through a lot
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: of changes to where she is today, when she has
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: talked about how she is happy who she is and
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: learned so much, but it took a while to get there. Um.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And of course one of the big things identity. She's
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: trying to seek who she is and is she truly
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a native and how much of a native? Because that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: was a conversation that's Ben had and we'll talk about
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: that in a minute. But but you know, just on
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: a personal note, of course, you know, I know this
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: feeling of trying to figure myself out, being told I
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: act more white has recently been a problem to me,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: as when I was younger that's where I wanted to
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: identify as because that seemed like the better choice, you know,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: in the world. UM, and then realizing, oh no, I'm
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: losing everything about myself. I've lost so much. There's part
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: of my identity that's been cut from me coming to
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: this trying to figure out what this looks like. And
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: for her, her conversation was being white presenting UM, even
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: to the point that the boyfriend actually says, don't you
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: wouldn't you rather have that? Isn't that better to seem
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: like you're white and you can choose to be that?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh yeah, it was gross. I
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: mean a lot of their conversations were pretty pretty gross
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and like. And she describes that sense of unblogging and
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: having this like panic around it of like what if
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I discover if I take this DNA test and I
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: discover something, um, And you know, she goes to the
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: psychic and she goes to she does all these things
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: that we talked about because she's like trying to find
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: her identity and trying to find meaning and she's very
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: like got a lot of tension around it. UM. And
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: it opens with her talking about her kind of like
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: indigenous card that's gonna inspire in Canada, UM, which comes
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: up a lot. So there was a lot of discussion
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: around like particularly Canadian policies and attitude around Indigenous people
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: right um. And actually, one of the things that we
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: do want to mention because it was brought up when
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: we were searching things, was the controversial idea of blood quantum.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And we're not going to go too deep into it
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: because again it is controversial. But if just in case
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: you didn't know, it's a according to the MPR, highly
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: controversial measurement of the amount of native blood you have.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: It can affect your identity, your relationships, or whether or
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: not your your children may become a citizen of your tribe. Um.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: So it's a big conversation as in fact, I know
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: recently on TikTok, a big creator who has come out
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: as being problematic who is native um had brought up
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the fact that if literally just saying if you look white,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: then you're white, And it rubbed a lot of people
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: the wrong way because it was that blood quantum conversation
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: for Native individuals and specifically who understand that there's problematic
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: conversations when you have white people saying I'm one so,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: and so you're like, what the what the heil like
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: you really want to punch somebody. But the truth is
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: there are people who are white presenting who already struggled
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: not being identified as one way UM and being dismissed
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: another way. So it's kind of this whole big conversation
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and this is one of our things that it's not
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: looking native enough to come through and then having people
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: come to them be like, oh yeah, I am also
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: one eighth something something and then feeling like, okay, this
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: is a problem in itself. And of course it seems
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to me this may be white supremacy in itself to
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: measure you and push you against your own community. So
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: that's that's a deeper conversation we're not going to have.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: But it is interesting to see, and I know when
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: it comes to people that are multi race have the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: need to prove themselves one way or another, and it's
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: really disheartening for that individual. I could only imagine because
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: it feels bad enough as actual according to my twenty
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: three and me DNA that says I am Korean and
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: nothing else. Don't ask or look, don't don't don't go
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: anywhere else um to try to figure out trying to
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: be that in a community that oftentimes won't accept me
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: as that. So there's just this level of balance in
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: having this type of controversial term floating about. I couldn't
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: imagine what that looks like. Yeah, yeah, And we see
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that throughout the play of her of Salt Baby. Um,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: like the date at the end with the guy she
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: found through like indigenous dating site and him making her
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: feel like she's not Native enough, and then seeing you know,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: her mom going this way and kind of being like, no,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I'd rather I'd rather be white passing more white, um,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: and hearing it from her boyfriend, and then feeling this
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: pressure uh internally, but you know also from her family
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: of like you know, you need to have a native baby,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: and it's like your responsibility because that's just how this
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: system works. Um. It's just so just all these like
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: forces kind of like she's at sea and just on
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: a really rocky sea just buffing her about. Of like
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: when she's trying to figure out who she is and
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: she's got all of these things, she's constantly confronting her right,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and of course there's also the small fear that she's
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: not what she claims and she kind of talks about
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: that in this conversation of like, you will always be this,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you'll no matter what you are, and the grandfather saying
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: you're a fighter, this is this is who you are,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: so don't let that pass. This is a part of
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: my blood in you. Essentially was that conversation, and it
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: was interesting speaking of the grandfather. Of course, we have
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: a theme around family, whether it's the really obnoxious wife
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: family who be called normal and then they're like more disrupted,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Like immediately imagine that dinner party where it goes from
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: zero to one seventy in like one minute. Literally all
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: they're doing is bickering, and it's so uncomfortable. I've definitely
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: been around people where you're like, well that was awkward,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and everybody was abruptly and you sit in silence. Yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: and then they just ran off with the wine. We're
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: like we're leaving, you know, I'm gonna say goodbye. This
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: is the first time they met her, right, and she's like, well, well,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: bye by. But then you have her father, who she's
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: obviously very close to, and then her I believe cousin Clara,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: who is like telling her dog in the DNA they're
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: going to have your information. Don't do this to yourself,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: which you know it's not. She's not wrong, and then
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: also like whether or not they use it against indigenous people,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: which also she's probably not wrong, um, but also has
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the famous recipe that we're talking about, the grandmother's recipe
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: that she cooks for her. It's quite delightful and I
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: really do want to make these cookies. Um. But it's
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: a sweet interaction. But obviously all the things aren't important
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: to Clara is the one that is the one that
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: knows the oral history of the family. Her father's like,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: go talk to Clara, she knows, though she goes to
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: visit to get more information, um, which we don't get
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: too much more information purposeful, but uh, they talk about
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the importance of oral history and why they do this,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and then they do have this big conversation of the
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: lack of history for Indigenous people and First nations because
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the government we're cruel and wanted to decimate the whole
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: community of people and whole culture because colonization. And it
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: was an interesting taken like look at what they were
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: talking about, how they do look at like ancestral histories
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and what they have to do to make sure that
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: it remains alive. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's especially
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: interesting given we're reading this play right, um. But also
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: as we said, as you said, there's this ancestral voice
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: of her grandfather throughout, and there's even part like a
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: ghostly voice of her father or the grandfather speaking through
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: her father, And I thought that was a really interesting
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: take on sort of that oral history. And there's one
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: part that's really funny where the grandfather is observing her
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: on this date with alligator, and he's kind of like
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: making comments and she's almost having a conversation with him,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: but makes it look normal. I guess, Um, it's really
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: really interesting, like like the boyfriend's not like who are
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: you talking to? Is what I'm trying to say, but um,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: kind of that dialogue of the past of someone who's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: not with you anymore but you still carry. And then
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: that was one of my favorite things at the end
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is when she looks at her hands and she says,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I used to think my hands were so ugly, um
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: like man manly hands, but they're my grandfather's hands, um,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: and so that's like a piece of him is with me.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's it was really eloquent and
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: beautiful way to kind of demonstrate that oral history but
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: also just that ancestral history, right um, and yeah, it's
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: a good connection. Again, I think is interesting to see
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: how they talk about the different nations coming through and
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: um and what that seems like. And they were talking
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: about the switching and that wasn't interesting. I don't know
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: much about that. Again, I know your listeners like what
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: and essentially, UM, people trying to continue the community specifically
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: that whether it's Mohawk or whether it was Tuscarora, like
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: making sure that children were born within those communities to
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: continue on their heritage. And I thought that was interesting,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: um in this conversation and self wish I don't know
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: much about that history, which we should probably and we'll
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: come back to um. But yeah, there's a like the
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: lineage and and continuing a community are continuing a group
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: of people, which is uh something that important, especially when
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: you have colonizers trying to wipe you out. You know
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: this whole thing. Um, here's something that I found interesting
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and I was felt very relatable in this theme the
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: interracial dating or the uh. Yeah, like it's it's a
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: whole other conversation. And I say this as again, I'm adopted,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: so of course it's not foreign to me. It's not
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: like I am actually coming from an Asian family with
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Asian disapproval for being with a white man um in general.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: But when trying to get trying to express what is
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: happening in my life and why it is important or
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: what it looks like when people are being racist or
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: precious towards me, and the fact that I get looks
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: that he doesn't understand um. Same thing that happened with
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: my parents, who would say they just they're just looking
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: at you because they're jealous or whatever, or they think
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: you're pretty. I was like, none of us, that's not
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: what's happening. And you are dismissing how I'm feeling, which
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: he does often in this relationship, and it gets into
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: the way, especially when she's trying to hone in on
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: her identity, but then him feeling like that she is
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: a using him for the mistakes. Again, we're not going
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to go too deep into it, because I think uh
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Johnson had a lot more grace to the idea that
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: she may have so many emotional ties and emotional reactions
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: because she was in the middle of trying to find
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: our identity and finding him, um, so insensitive to what
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: she was going through. Uh that she comes back, it's laughing.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: He's like, I might I could have handled this differently,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: so kind of bad. But at the same time, I'm like, nah,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: it's a problem. He's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. I think
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: one of the clearest examples is when she comes back,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: he's like playing video games and she's struggling with this
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: like identity crisis, and the first thing he thinks is
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: this means we can go get drinks, right, because she
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: had to wait four days to get drinks based on
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: this ritual she went through. Um that was his first like,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: you could go get drinks now, right, Um, just thinking
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: about himself and clearly not listening to her, trying to
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: understand at all what she was going through. You're right.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: I mean they did have a conversation about having children,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, and she was like, I don't
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: want to have children with you. I would have children
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: with a native person. And he was very offended, and
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I get that, like to the point like wait, what then,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: what are we doing here? Are we long term? And
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: are we not? And the fact that like, is this
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: going to make it to the future, what is happening?
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: What was the point of this relationship? Um? And a
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: lot of the conflicts are the fact that he isn't
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: native UM, so he can't understand and that seems understandable
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to me. Like if a thing doesn't work, because it's
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: that's not where you are. Again, like I said, she
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: has a pushing pull of being a little self effacing,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and so she's like, you know, I did these things
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and it's not She's not wrong on that, but again,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: like the bigger picture, when we come back to why,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: what is important to you? And if it isn't and
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: it doesn't align, then yeah, it won't work. Yeah, Yeah,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I did like how and I can see they're definitely
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: problematic aspects to this too. But I liked how her
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: father and her grandfather were kind of like, yeah, he's skinny,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: but are you happy? They're always kind of like happy. Alright,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: that's good enough. Right Again, So he's a vegetarian too,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: is always a white vegetarian dude coming to the home
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of a man who hunts and eats his own hunt
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: like he cares for himselves and lives off the lands
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: kind of but like and loves UFC fighting. So all
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: the things that he would hate. It was quite funny.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Um to see that interaction as well. But I think
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: it's interesting. Then. Yeah, they were very accepting. Even again
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: at the end when the grandfather was like, yeah, he
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: wasn't that bad. It was kind of again, this is
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: a funny place. It was kind of just like, yeah,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: we're happy, all right, all right, if he makes you happy, Okay,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you do you. I'm not gonna last. They didn't say
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: that a couple of times. I'm not gonna lask, but okay. Um. Yes,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And and it's not a theme, but I think is
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: important that we talked about it, because Johnson felt that
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: it was important. Uh, the humor in this play, as
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: in the factually talked about it, uh in another interview.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: And in the interview they said Johnson is a great
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: believer in humor as a conduit to a place in
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her language and content. She's quoted in saying it's a
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: tool it allows us access. People may approach our indigenous
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: content as scary, but they feel safe when they can laugh.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: It's a way in a way for people to relate. Um. Again,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: she is much kinder than she has to be. Then,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: for those of us that are not Indigenous, and trying
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: to make people feel comfortable to understand the where she's
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: coming from or what she saw or just it's just
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: understanding a little more of the indigenous culture. Uh. But yeah,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: that she felt that it was important that for her
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: to use this play in this way, and I think
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: that's something that important that we need to talk about.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: For her doing this for us, I feel like she
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: does that for the audience also. I have a feeling
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: she is, as I was saying, self efacing jokes about
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: herself enough to like not take ourselves too seriously, but
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: in understanding this is something that happened and this is
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: something that needs to be talked about, so trying to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: find that balance for her own personality as well. Yeah,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: I mean I feel like the human really does shine
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: through in this, and her personality and her humor relady
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: shines through in this because it is it's a lot
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: of it is very serious subject material. But I was
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: laughing quite a few times. YEA. Yeah, yeah, just whether
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: it's just dating in general and having like the moment
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: of like what I just say type of thing, like
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: you know, like being aware, very aware of like oh
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: that did not make sense. I'm gonna move on with it,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: or this doesn't make sense. I'm gonna move on with it,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: which I do often like okay, keep going. Um. And
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: also again white people asking the typical like say this
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: for me, what does this say? What do you sound like?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: You know? All of those things? Um, which happens off
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: and um, which again yeah, we laugh. We laugh about
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: it to a point that to make people more comfortable,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: which is not necessarily something that she should have to
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: do or we should have to do in general, but
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: we did. That's what happens, that's what we learned to
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: make outsiders feel comfortable and or us as the outsiders,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: feel more accepted, which is in itself a conversation. But
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because you and I had this
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: conversation that the atrocities that the Native community has gone through,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: it does feel like a lot of deep serious content um,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: and waiting through and trying to make sure we do
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: it appropriately and giving it all the respect that they
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: deserve it deserves because it is a serious conversation. We
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: know what's happening with the Indian Child Welfare Act right now,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and it is I hate it. And these are things
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: that are an attack on the Native people, the Native community,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: and the Indigenous people that continues to suppress and oppress
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: them as culture and as a society a whole. And
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I think that's part of the thing that she was
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: talking about, was like we we we don't have to
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: always be this serious, and that was that other part
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: is it's tragedy porn in that people watch for the
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: instead of appreciating that it's not always this way and
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that they are human and that they have experienced several
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: motions that it doesn't have to be. I think reservation
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: dogs have a great uh concept of this as well.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: I know there's a conversation of it being problematic in itself,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: but the content that they give is through a humorous
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: lens trying because it's not it's people are happy. Indigenous
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: people for most of our are happy in their community, um.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And if they're in a good community and feel safe
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: with their family. It's not that it's not this whole
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: welfare level of like everybody's so miserable and dismay um.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: And to pretend that's the entire party of its culture
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: is offensive to Yeah, which we've talked about that a lot,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: kind of a racing the joy and fullness that marginalized
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: people's lives have. Um. So I am very glad that
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: we read this. I'm glad that we were able to
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: find it. Um and I very very much enjoyed it
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and recommend it. Yes. So if you have time it is.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: If you can find it in your local bookstore, do that.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: But if you can't, Amazon does have it for a
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: marginal amount. The money does go still to high a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: part of the money anyway, and we should we should
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: celebrate it. Uh plays like this and hope for more
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: because there's not enough Native Indigenous contents when it comes
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to plays, and I'm being on stage and I would
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: love to see more. Yes, yes, yes, yes, And as always, listeners,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: if you have any suggestions for what we should cover next,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: be it's play, our book or comic, yes, please let
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: us know. You can email us at Stephane your Mom,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Stuff I hurt me dot com. You can find us
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: on Twitter at mons of podcast or on Instagram and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: stuff we Never told you. Thanks as always to our
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: super producer Christina, Thank you Christina, and thanks to you
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff Whenever told Me his production of by
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Higher Radio. For more podcast in My Heart Radio, you
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: can check out the hier Radio Appackle podcast. Where do
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows?