Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Robert Kerbeck's Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street

Transcript

Robert Kerbeck's Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:00
  So you know we do a tarot reading for every episode of the podcast.
• 0:05
  Oh my god, this is already the best podcast ever. I get a tarot card reading included.
• 0:11
  Yes, wow.
• 0:12
  Yes.
• 0:12
  Okay, I'm-
• 0:13
  We do charge $39.99 per reading.
• 0:17
  It's a steal.
• 0:18
  It's a steal.
• 0:19
  [Music]
• 0:37
  Hi Cassie.
• 0:38
  Well, hey there, Caitlyn.
• 0:40
  Hi creepy people.
• 0:41
  Hi!
• 0:43
  We never get an answer.
• 0:46
  Yeah, they never respond.
• 0:47
  I actually did think you were talking to me and so I almost did respond.
• 0:52
  Yes.
• 0:52
  So I-
• 0:53
  There is a creepy person here?
• 0:54
  I guess I am the creepy person.
• 0:56
  Isn't it always fun to be the creepy person in the room?
• 1:00
  Yeah, every once in a while.
• 1:00
  You know, it's kind of cool, you know?
• 1:02
  Yeah.
• 1:02
  He says, oh boy, I don't know if I'd known you were going to introduce me that way.
• 1:07
  Not sure I would have signed on the dotted line for this.
• 1:10
  Well, let's introduce him to all of the other creepy people.
• 1:14
  We have on our show today, whenever you're listening, whatever day that happens to be,
• 1:20
  Robert and I'm hoping I'm not going to- I don't know why, but I look at the last name
• 1:26
  and I feel like, you've listened to the book.
• 1:30
  I know.
• 1:31
  It makes no sense.
• 1:33
  I'm not saying it makes any sense.
• 1:35
  Kerbek.
• 1:36
  Robert Kerbek.
• 1:37
  That's right.
• 1:38
  That's right.
• 1:38
  My friends just call me creepy.
• 1:41
  So, you know.
• 1:42
  Perfect.
• 1:43
  You'll fit right in around here.
• 1:45
  I was just going to say.
• 1:46
  So, we're super excited to talk to you about Roo's.
• 1:51
  I think I told you before we get started.
• 1:53
  I'm on my second listen through on the book and audible.
• 1:57
  So, we reached out to you a while back because I connected with you on pod match.
• 2:05
  We're doing this wild thing where we're being very transparent about it.
• 2:08
  It feels a little bit like when online dating first came around.
• 2:12
  And you always had to have a cover story.
• 2:15
  Nobody wanted to say that they met on an online dating website or app.
• 2:20
  It does sound like dating pod match.
• 2:24
  Yeah.
• 2:25
  Okay, Cassie.
• 2:27
  I'm going to grab a beverage here and did you want to-
• 2:31
  Yeah, after you're done opening your can of soda.
• 2:34
  Only soda?
• 2:36
  That's it.
• 2:37
  I mean-
• 2:38
  Oh, no, we're double fisting.
• 2:40
  I've got a- this is a lacroise sparkling water and then we've got the tumblers with the wine.
• 2:45
  Oh, thank goodness.
• 2:46
  I mean, that was the whole excitement of the pod match match.
• 2:50
  I said, you know, any people that are drinking on air,
• 2:54
  sign me up for that program.
• 2:55
  Right.
• 2:55
  It's always going to be fun.
• 2:57
  Exactly.
• 2:58
  But here's the thing though, is I feel like for us and we first started doing this.
• 3:03
  We were initially releasing video, but it was a little nerve-wracking.
• 3:08
  Because you're kind of speaking into the void and we are not used to
• 3:12
  receiving critical reviews.
• 3:15
  Something that you might be a little bit more in duck-duck at this point.
• 3:20
  You're very familiar.
• 3:21
  Yes, yes.
• 3:22
  As an actor and as a writer, I've received many critical reviews.
• 3:25
  Sons of bitches.
• 3:27
  Ah, exactly, exactly.
• 3:29
  Okay.
• 3:30
  Well, I won't give you a critical review of the book.
• 3:32
  That's not my style.
• 3:34
  So-
• 3:34
  But so Caitlyn kind of does this thing where she's kind of my momager.
• 3:39
  And she's just like sets up all these interviews and things and she's like,
• 3:43
  read this book, do this, do this.
• 3:44
  I'm like, okay.
• 3:45
  Yes, I will.
• 3:46
  So I jumped into your book and I had no idea what it was about.
• 3:51
  I don't even know if I read the entire title.
• 3:55
  So I'm sitting there listening to this book and I thought it was a fiction.
• 3:59
  I was like, wait a minute.
• 4:02
  Like, this sounds really real.
• 4:04
  So I had to go back and I was like, oh, okay.
• 4:06
  Not a fiction.
• 4:08
  Yeah, that's right.
• 4:08
  That's right.
• 4:09
  It's it's, I've written a true book about line.
• 4:15
  Because obviously, you know, obviously you know, now I'm writing a book about my career as a corporate
• 4:21
  spy, which is not someone you meet every day.
• 4:23
  And-
• 4:25
  This is the first.
• 4:26
  Yeah.
• 4:27
  And so, the book, everything in the book, all the spying, all the shenanigans, it's all true.
• 4:31
  That's crazy.
• 4:32
  So you rused me in the beginning.
• 4:34
  That's right.
• 4:37
  Hashtag, you've been rused
• 4:39
  you've been rused
• 4:40
  Oh, I like that.
• 4:42
  Yeah, we're going to use that.
• 4:43
  Yeah, go have it.
• 4:45
  Have at it.
• 4:45
  I'm getting a tarot card reading.
• 4:47
  You guys should get some hashtags.
• 4:48
  Perfect.
• 4:49
  There you go.
• 4:49
  See, I knew we were going to really have a good time here today.
• 4:53
  I think it's really funny because throughout the book,
• 4:59
  there were so many different things where I was like, God damn it.
• 5:02
  This is just so relatable.
• 5:04
  And my dad actually works in a car dealership, has for years.
• 5:12
  Not the owner of a car dealership, but I thought there were so many funny parallels to
• 5:17
  you know, different situations and conversations that I've had with my dad over the year.
• 5:22
  So I just thought like it's such a funny little detail from your background that I was like,
• 5:28
  oh man, I just know that I'm going to really identify with him.
• 5:34
  Oh, that's so funny.
• 5:36
  What did your dad do with the dealership?
• 5:37
  So he's done quite a few things over the years actually.
• 5:43
  He's been in sales.
• 5:45
  He's been in finance.
• 5:46
  I think he's in finance right now.
• 5:49
  Okay, and what's from what kind of cars?
• 5:51
  What is the what is the product line?
• 5:53
  Gosh, right now.
• 5:56
  I mean, that's the other thing that you never you kind of bounce around.
• 5:59
  Unless your family owns a dealership, right?
• 6:02
  Right, right.
• 6:03
  Yeah, which you know, my family, as you guys know, the Kerbeck family,
• 6:06
  you know, started selling cars.
• 6:09
  Basically the second cars were invented in America.
• 6:12
  And even today, my cousins are still some of the biggest car dealers in America.
• 6:19
  And you know, so if you're looking for a deal on a Lamborghini, tell them I sent you.
• 6:22
  Perfect.
• 6:25
  Well, there you go.
• 6:26
  Yeah, he's not working at a Lamborghini dealership as far as I know.
• 6:30
  I want to say Ford Mercury Lincoln.
• 6:33
  There you go.
• 6:34
  That could be wrong.
• 6:35
  That was where I worked.
• 6:37
  That was the dealership I worked.
• 6:38
  That was Lincoln Mercury, you know, as a young guy.
• 6:40
  When I graduated college.
• 6:43
  And you know, I went to work there.
• 6:47
  And you know, I was selling cars and it was funny because the kind of the trickery of sales,
• 6:53
  I mean, look, all sales is convincing people to buy something.
• 6:56
  Usually, obviously, for more than what you paid for.
• 7:00
  That's the whole point of sales because that's how you make money.
• 7:02
  But it just kind of didn't feel right to me, you know, trying to get people to buy a car for as
• 7:09
  much money as possible.
• 7:10
  You know, because the more money I made, the more profit there was for the dealership,
• 7:14
  the more my commission was, which of course is common in most sales.
• 7:19
  And so it just didn't feel right to me and I kind of wanted to be an actor.
• 7:23
  And you know, I moved to New York to try acting.
• 7:25
  And of course, actors need survival jobs.
• 7:28
  And who stumbles into a career as a corporate spy, which is, of course, what I did, which ended up,
• 7:34
  obviously, being far more ethically challenged, let's say, than cars.
• 7:40
  Ironic, definitely.
• 7:41
  Yes, quite ironic.
• 7:42
  I know.
• 7:43
  My father did not find it so funny when I said to him, I'm leaving the dealership because,
• 7:47
  yeah, I don't really like the sales thing, tricking people.
• 7:51
  And then later he found out I was a corporate spy and he was like, oh my god.
• 7:54
  You know, he was none too pleased.
• 7:57
  He could have done so great at the dealership.
• 8:00
  Oh, I know.
• 8:01
  And now my hometown is Philadelphia.
• 8:06
  And so if I had stayed, the Quebec name is extremely well known in Philadelphia.
• 8:11
  Like Philadelphia Magazine did an article a couple years back of the 30 famous Philadelphia families
• 8:17
  and our family, the Quebec family was one of the 30 families, which blew me.
• 8:21
  And by the way, that's not me.
• 8:22
  I'm the black sheep of the family.
• 8:24
  So clearly they were not writing it about me.
• 8:26
  But but if I had stayed, that level of celebrity literally when I go back and periodically,
• 8:33
  I go back.
• 8:33
  And if I go to a restaurant and they say, you know, what's your name?
• 8:37
  And I say, Kerbeck and they go, Kerbeck, are you one of the curbs?
• 8:41
  Yeah.
• 8:42
  You know, my gosh.
• 8:43
  So I and now of course, my again, you guys aren't big sports fans.
• 8:47
  I don't think but the Philadelphia Eagles played Amaro in the NFC championship game.
• 8:53
  And so if I were back selling cars, I'd have free, well, maybe not free tickets to the Eagles,
• 8:58
  but I would have I would have seasoned tickets to the Eagles and I'd be at that game.
• 9:02
  So oh well, you win some you lose some.
• 9:04
  Oh, I'm stuck in Malibu, California.
• 9:06
  It's not too bad.
• 9:07
  Oh darn.
• 9:08
  Yeah, it could be worse.
• 9:10
  I know.
• 9:10
  I know.
• 9:10
  Yeah, you know, a lot of it's certainly good.
• 9:11
  A lot of people are probably right now going, man, I feel bad for this guy, you know,
• 9:15
  poor guy, corporate spy living in Malibu, California.
• 9:20
  Poor little black sheep.
• 9:23
  Yeah.
• 9:23
  Yeah.
• 9:24
  Oh my goodness.
• 9:24
  Yeah, it does seem like it worked out other than, you know, the season tickets.
• 9:29
  What are you going to do?
• 9:30
  What are you going to do?
• 9:31
  You cannot have it all.
• 9:33
  Yeah.
• 9:34
  Absolutely.
• 9:36
  You know, what's funny to me is listening to the book and, you know, thinking about things from a
• 9:44
  perspective of really most of my adult career, something like LinkedIn has always been
• 9:54
  in existence.
• 9:55
  But thinking back to, and you referenced it multiple times in your book as well, but, you know,
• 10:04
  the archetype of sort of that wolf wolf wall street, and you think to what a crazy,
• 10:09
  competitive greed is good era that you became a corporate spy.
• 10:15
  And how valuable that information was.
• 10:18
  And I'm like, how did this never occur to me?
• 10:21
  I feel like that was something that I was a little bit surprised that it didn't actually get
• 10:27
  featured as kind of this little side trail in more of the movies that are kind of in that vein.
• 10:34
  Yeah.
• 10:35
  I think that's exactly right.
• 10:37
  You know, and when I, you know, first kind of circled back to writing, I was in English major
• 10:43
  in college, and then many, many years went by, and I was acting, and spying, and getting, you know,
• 10:50
  almost in trouble, and, you know, and then having a midlife crisis, and then almost encircled back to
• 10:56
  writing after many, many years.
• 10:58
  And when I started writing, I started going to a couple of writing conferences, because I said,
• 11:03
  look, you know, I need to figure out how to write.
• 11:06
  I know I have a great story, because how many people are a corporate spy?
• 11:10
  I know there's a story to be told, but I had to figure out how to tell it.
• 11:13
  So I go to these writing conferences, and I was reading early excerpts from reviews,
• 11:18
  and people were freaking out about it, because they said the exact same thing you just said,
• 11:22
  which was, oh my god, you know, I know the Russians fly on the Chinese and the Chinese
• 11:26
  fly on us, but I had no idea major corporations are spending so much money hiring spies
• 11:32
  to spy on each other, you know.
• 11:34
  And that was like a light bulb moment for me.
• 11:36
  I went, wow, you know, people were just, I mean, people were going bonkers about it.
• 11:40
  And I knew it was cool, but I didn't know it was that cool.
• 11:43
  And then I realized, wow, there's really a story here that not only can I write, but that I could
• 11:49
  actually, you know, sell.
• 11:50
  Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there is something about it, the fact that it's your lived experience,
• 11:57
  that makes it seem like, oh, I mean, you know, I know it's cool, but like you say, like I didn't,
• 12:03
  oh, it was that cool. So I thought that was really interesting.
• 12:08
  I was really curious, because I know that you talk about a number of different types of information
• 12:16
  that you would be asked to collect. And it's a different era. So to me, I'm thinking, oh, wait a
• 12:22
  second, this is like a landline that people are picking up, right? Which first of all, what's a landline?
• 12:30
  But I did, I did, you know, I mean, even today you can get people to pick up their cell phone,
• 12:38
  believe it or not. And I have tricks to get people to pick up their cell phone. And then when people
• 12:45
  pick up their cell phone, you use call spoofing to have your phone number appear as a number that
• 12:50
  they recognize or a number they sort of recognize. And then using those things, now I'm, you know,
• 12:58
  now theoretically I'm getting people to tell me whatever it is I want to know via the cell phone,
• 13:04
  which, you know, we did because obviously cell phones have been around for a while. So it wasn't just,
• 13:08
  it wasn't just landline, but definitely landline is where, where are my spine careers started.
• 13:14
  Yeah, I thought it was so interesting too. And it sounds like it was sort of something that you
• 13:21
  guys were very aware of. And it probably just makes sense based on the era, but having worked for
• 13:29
  a number of doctors and after hours, a doctor doesn't answer their own calls. And in that industry to
• 13:37
  hear that all you had to do was call after hours and you might get this actual person on the line,
• 13:43
  this is somebody who's very high up at, you know, bare stirs or, I mean, that kind of is mind blowing.
• 13:51
  Right. Yeah, no, I mean, and again, I think a lot of these things we learned by accident because,
• 13:56
  you know, we were, you know, actors that needed a survival job. You know, we were getting,
• 14:02
  believe it or not, it sounds crazy. Eight dollars an hour to be corporate spies, which is hilarious.
• 14:08
  Hellarius, since we were putting ourselves in jeopardy, legal jeopardy. Yeah. And of course,
• 14:13
  that's where we started. And obviously you guys have read the books. You know, eventually I was
• 14:16
  making millions of dollars a year doing this, but we started. It was just eight dollars an hour.
• 14:21
  And so we were learning these things because, you know, we needed this job, you know, nowadays,
• 14:26
  with COVID, so many people, you know, remote work became just so prevalent. But back in the day,
• 14:33
  you know, we're talking early 90s now, back in the day, you know, you couldn't work from home.
• 14:38
  There were no jobs from home. And so as an actor, you know, to be able to have a job, you could do from
• 14:43
  home and do for two or three hours, then go to an audition, then come back and work another two or
• 14:49
  three hours and then go to another audition. You know, it was just a miracle. And so we needed the job.
• 14:55
  And we were desperate not to lose the job. And so we were working very hard to come up with
• 15:00
  the ploys and reasons why executives and assistants and receptionists that are educated people that
• 15:06
  are trained not to give out corporate secrets. We had to find and come up with, and we literally
• 15:11
  invented all of these ploys, you know, in the book, you know, there's the compliance.
• 15:16
  Some of them are so good. They're really, they're so clever.
• 15:20
  Yeah. Well, and you know, one of them we stumbled into was that what we learned is, is assistance.
• 15:25
  And I'm talking about Wall Street now, but I think this is true in most industries. You know,
• 15:29
  assistants generally have a pretty defined schedule for, you know, lack of a better thing.
• 15:34
  Nine to five, right? And so what we learned is when you called it five,
• 15:37
  thirty, the executive that you could never get through to now is picking up the phone. And
• 15:42
  better yet, if you called it seven, thirty, the executive is picking up the phone. And now they're
• 15:47
  exhausted after a long day. And now you get the executive on the phone. And you tell them,
• 15:53
  you're another executive in some different office, you know, maybe you're calling from the
• 15:57
  office in Frankfurt, Germany. Now we put on an accent. This is Gail Hot calling from the
• 16:02
  office in Frankfurt, Germany. He has a European union regulators here. And he has an emergency.
• 16:09
  And if he needs some help from the states. And the executive's like, oh my gosh. Oh my god.
• 16:14
  I'm giving you the info. Absolutely. Of course you are. You know, it's like, and that was the thing
• 16:19
  about this job was that the crazy our ploys were. The, you know, the most ludicrous story.
• 16:27
  In a strange way, it became more believable. Like who's, who's calling you pretending to have
• 16:33
  a German accent, pretending to be in your firm's office in Germany, telling you they need this
• 16:39
  information, which you kind of can't figure out why they would really need it in Germany.
• 16:43
  But it's the guy in Germany on the phone. Like nobody's making this up. I guess it's real. Okay,
• 16:48
  here you go. Yeah. Well, and I thought it was so interesting to hear kind of
• 16:55
  from a psychological perspective. And how many times you reflected, you know, people might pause
• 17:01
  or they might sort of question and maybe, you know, provide very minimal. I would argue pushback.
• 17:08
  But once they give you one piece of information, it's like your foot's in the door. And that just
• 17:15
  kind of blows you away. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that I think blew me away the most and still does
• 17:21
  is that so you know, you'd get that one piece of information. And of course, we would always start
• 17:25
  with the softball question. Like a question we knew the answer to, a question we did not need this
• 17:31
  information. We already knew the information. But we were establishing this precedent of I ask
• 17:36
  you question, you answer it. And once they did it once, why would they do it twice? Why wouldn't
• 17:40
  they do it three times? But what shocked me the most was that once we did get our foot in the door,
• 17:46
  people would not only tell us anything and everything that they they knew. But once they
• 17:51
  told us every single thing they knew and theoretically I didn't need them anymore. They'd give it to
• 17:56
  me all their information. They'd say, Hey, is there anything else you need? And then you go, well,
• 18:01
  just wild. Well, you know what? As a matter of fact, I'd like to know this and they go, well,
• 18:06
  that's my not my department. I don't know that. That's not my area. That's not even my division.
• 18:11
  But you know what? I know so and so over there. You don't hold on one second. Let me call over
• 18:18
  there and ask and see if I can get that for you. And so all of a sudden now you would have this person
• 18:25
  who has now become your spy. They're an employee who's now spying for you. And that happened
• 18:32
  very frequently. And that was incredible because now that person is calling someone they actually
• 18:38
  do know who's going to go, well, I don't know why you need this, but I know you. I trust you. You
• 18:44
  know. And so now you're really able to get some crazy secrets that I might not have been able to get
• 18:50
  directly, but now I'm getting them indirectly. And that was really shocking to me.
• 18:56
  Wow. Do you think it's because people just like to be helpful? Yes. Yeah, I mean, look, and also,
• 19:03
  and also you're trained in a corporate setting to, you know, not rock the boat, not make waves,
• 19:10
  be a good teammate, be a team player, right? All of those things, which, which a spy like me is
• 19:18
  leveraging to get the intel that I want. And of course, my clients want, and of course, my clients,
• 19:25
  you know, again, later in my career, we're paying huge amounts of money for information about
• 19:31
  their biggest rivals. That is just it blows me away to be able to like recruit within their own
• 19:38
  organization. Yeah. And just have, you know, I mean, now you have foot soldiers, essentially. Yeah,
• 19:44
  that's right. That's right. And there was one, you know, the woman in the book who I opened with,
• 19:50
  and then I end with her. I mean, she was my spy. And of course, she did not know my, she was my
• 19:56
  spy. She believed I was an executive at this firm for 15 years. But it's mind blowing. I know. I know.
• 20:05
  Mind blowing. And at one point, the thing that was the most, you know, in some sense, heartbreaking.
• 20:13
  But also like, you know, at one point, she says to me, you're my favorite person in the firm.
• 20:19
  Oh, I'll think about that. She's never. Not exactly a glowing recommendation for the rest of the firm,
• 20:26
  right? Yeah. Well, no, yeah, exactly. You know, and exactly. And of course, that was, you know,
• 20:32
  one of the things in the book is, you know, here I am doing this, you know, this exercise, which is
• 20:38
  certainly not ethical. And of course, is also, you know, potentially illegal. And in the book, you
• 20:45
  know, I reckon with the moral issues behind it. And of course, I really felt extremely conflicted.
• 20:53
  And of course, in this situation of this woman terrible, because I really liked her too. And,
• 20:59
  and it was amazing to me that she could say that to me that I was her favorite person in the firm.
• 21:05
  Until, of course, you know, in the book, when I have my midlife crisis and the 2008 crash comes,
• 21:11
  and corporate spying stops on a dime because corporations are no longer spending money on spying,
• 21:16
  because they're just trying to survive because major companies are going under, you know,
• 21:21
  remember General Motors had to be bailed out. Right. You know, Lehman Brothers went under
• 21:27
  bare sternum. One of a few. Yeah. Right. Right. And so all the sudden corporations aren't spending
• 21:32
  money on spying. I had a mortgage. I had a family. I needed to, you know, get a job. So I had to take
• 21:38
  a job in corporate America. And of course, then when I go into corporate America and for the, the,
• 21:44
  the people out there that I hope do buy ruse or listen to it on audible, if you're seeing me do my
• 21:49
  corporate spying and you're kind of getting a little bummed out at me, don't worry reader.
• 21:54
  I get my come-upence when I go to work in, when I go to work in corporate America, I become the victim,
• 22:01
  I become the doop. I'm the one that is sort of the sucker that believes everything that everyone
• 22:06
  is telling me. And here people are stabbing me in the back left and right. And I have no idea
• 22:11
  that they're doing it. I know. And you know what? You're going to hate it the whole time too.
• 22:15
  I was so, so angry. I'm like, all of these, how dare they? And then
• 22:22
  pause to think, well, wait a second. I guess, I guess maybe he did have a little bit of this coming.
• 22:28
  Well, I, we like him a lot better. Well, I appreciate the support I do. You know, I mean, I think that's
• 22:37
  what I was hoping with ruse. I wrote it during COVID. And obviously that was a terrible time. And so I
• 22:43
  wanted to write something that's fun. And, and a little crazy. And obviously quite different.
• 22:50
  People say it's a page turner. People say it reads like a, they say it reads like a spy novel,
• 22:54
  even though everything in it is true. And that means a lot to me because I wanted to write something
• 23:00
  that people could have. They could enjoy and have some laughs. Yeah, definitely. There's a few solid
• 23:06
  chuckles in there. I think it was earlier this week. I was listening to the story, the part of the
• 23:13
  the book where you're specifically talking about, oh, I've got your money. And I'm thinking, wait a
• 23:21
  second, he didn't hand this woman his ATM card. Like what? And I'm like, this is an adorable
• 23:28
  continuation of that joke. I just that piece of it. And I'm like, I'm dancing around it because I'm
• 23:34
  like, I don't want to give away too many. All of like the factoids and everything. But I had to
• 23:39
  tell you I was like, stop. Like that's just, it's a really cool part of, and seeing how like both
• 23:48
  of you guys, your sense of humor and, um, damn it, just so likable. It can't. He's like, stop it.
• 23:56
  That's enough, Caitlin. Gosh. But I am really curious because obviously we, you know, we've learned
• 24:06
  so much about, you know, the premise of rusing, which I mean, it blows my mind. It's just a
• 24:13
  mind numbing experience to hear about like all of the details over your time doing that.
• 24:21
  Your professional background as an actor, you know, in car sales. You've worn a lot of hats.
• 24:29
  And obviously a lot about your family. Is there anything that stands out as far as like a singular
• 24:36
  piece of information that was worth like just a shocking amount of money or a particular piece of
• 24:44
  information that seemed kind of odd or noteworthy? I feel like there's got to be a nugget of gold in there.
• 24:51
  Well, yeah, I mean, you know, one time. So, you know, remember, we're in the pre-linked in ERA. So, um,
• 25:00
  and people didn't know who worked at firms, you know, they didn't know what the organizational
• 25:05
  structure was. And they certainly, and this is true even today, even with LinkedIn, you don't know
• 25:10
  who the rock stars are. You don't know who the top people are at a firm. You don't know who the top
• 25:17
  money makers, the top revenue producers, the top exit, you know, and so, um, so there was, at one point,
• 25:24
  there was a team at at Morgan Stanley, a major, you know, investment bank in New York.
• 25:31
  And they made Morgan Stanley a billion dollars in, I think it was 2006. And it was eight person
• 25:39
  team, tiny team, making an insane amount of money. And so, we were tasked to find the people on this
• 25:47
  eight person team. Now, you may say to yourself, well, how hard could that be? Well, I can tell you,
• 25:51
  it was impossible. A lot of times, these firms would not even list their best executives in the
• 25:58
  corporate directory. Apple legendary Apple CEO Steve Jobs would not list his designers in the
• 26:05
  Apple directory for that very same reason. Imagine if you could poach one of the early designers
• 26:12
  of the iPad, you know, back in the day and get that guy, or, you know, man or woman, come to your team
• 26:19
  and bring not not only maybe one or two other people on the team, but the secrets of what they were
• 26:24
  working on, you know. No kidding. Yeah, it's like stealing a printing press. That's right. You know,
• 26:29
  prints money. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so we, you know, or I identified the eight members of
• 26:35
  this team and then my client stole two of those people. Now, you say, okay, well, how much was that
• 26:42
  worth? Well, some portion of a billion dollars. Wow. Well. Yeah. So, so the information, you know,
• 26:51
  I mean, look, we see it, you know, and again, I forgive me. I go back to sports, but we see it in sports.
• 26:56
  Like if you signed the star quarter back away from one team, Tom Brady was on the New England Patriots.
• 27:02
  He was winning Super Bowls. Right. He leaves the New England Patriots. Now they are not winning Super Bowls.
• 27:07
  Now they're not in the playoffs. And then the team he goes to, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, they win
• 27:12
  the Super Bowl, right? And it's the same thing in corporate America. If you can identify who the best
• 27:17
  players are and then you can steal them from your rival, you not only dent, you know, and sometimes
• 27:24
  severely damage your rival, but now your firm benefits immensely. And, you know, again, if you're
• 27:32
  listeners out there, corporate America is just as competitive as sports. It is just as competitive.
• 27:40
  People want to win at all costs. Executives are paid based on their company stock price,
• 27:47
  based on their revenue. They get bonus checks. So it is super cutthroat. And so these corporations,
• 27:54
  they know their rivals are hiring spies. So they're going to hire spies. And so there's this whole
• 27:59
  spy versus spy thing that's constantly going on. It's pretty wild. You think that if both of them are
• 28:06
  hiring spies, they kind of would know what to look for and maybe like train their assistance and stuff
• 28:13
  to not get roost, right? I mean, they tried. They tried and not to get wild as part. Yeah, they don't
• 28:20
  try hard enough. Not not hard enough. I mean, look, when you think about today, you know, the big issue
• 28:25
  is cybercrime, right? And ransomware attacks. And so corporations spend so much money protecting their
• 28:32
  technology, their firewall, their encryption, their server, their network. And they spend a
• 28:37
  minuscule fraction of that money and time educating and training their employees. And that is a huge
• 28:45
  problem because the weakest link in cybersecurity is always the human being. Absolutely. Yeah, my brother
• 28:54
  works in IT for a healthcare organization. So I get to hear about a lot of those examples of
• 29:03
  like what it looks like a weak link in that system. And those are not low stakes. No, no, no, no, no,
• 29:10
  no, no, no, no, no, yeah, no, and I actually had a healthcare company reach out to me.
• 29:17
  They were victims of a ransomware attack. And I won't go into the whole story, but they could not
• 29:25
  book an appointment. They could not help a patient deal with the patient. Do anything for 10 days.
• 29:33
  Now this was a healthcare provider. They had six locations. They couldn't all six shut down. Now think
• 29:41
  about not only the economic damage, but the reputational damage, right? Absolutely. And it all started
• 29:49
  from a junior person being roosed. Somebody call, you know, because a lot of times these ransomware
• 29:55
  firms, what they do is it's not just one person. It's usually small teams of people. And it's a
• 30:01
  little bit like mission possible, which each team member has a skill. So there's the social engineer
• 30:07
  who's going in and is finding out how the system is set up, finding out what the weak links might be,
• 30:12
  then they're feeding that information to the hacker. Because, you know, no matter how good the hacker
• 30:17
  is, they've got to understand some stuff to, you know, and so now the hacker gets all of this
• 30:22
  information that makes the hacking super, or if not super easy, much easier, easier. And then there's
• 30:29
  another person on the team who's the financial instruments expert because they've got to figure out how
• 30:33
  do we get this ransom and not get caught getting it? How do we make it untraceable? You know, so they're
• 30:39
  like these little teams, these mission impossible teams. So, you know, they're difficult to go up against.
• 30:45
  And if you're not training your people about that exact scenario, you know, you're really, you're
• 30:52
  really, you know, you're really playing with fire because you're going to get burned. And when you
• 30:55
  get burned, it's, it can be catastrophic for, especially for a small or midsize company.
• 31:00
  No doubt. Well, and in a healthcare setting, you just hope, my God, I hope it's not like,
• 31:06
  while I'm on the operating table. On the ecology clinic. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Well,
• 31:14
  in that actually, you know, thinking about it in that manner where it's sort of a team that's
• 31:20
  working together that way, that sort of makes it even scarier. Yeah. Yeah. See, you know, here we are on
• 31:27
  this, you know, I'm so glad you guys had me on because this is an atypical maybe what you would think
• 31:33
  of as a crime story or, you know, homicides, you would think of homicides, you know. But there is
• 31:40
  especially now, you know, these stakes have gotten so much higher, right? You know, in my mind, you
• 31:47
  know, I don't, I'm not proud of what I did, but you know, we justified it as, as look, we weren't
• 31:52
  stealing the credit card numbers of people. Right. We weren't stealing individuals money. You
• 31:57
  know, it was like, we're stealing corporate secrets and all the corporations are in on it.
• 32:01
  And it's part of the capitalist system. And then I'm not saying it's right, but that's how we
• 32:04
  rationalized it. But today, right? You know, the stakes are so much higher where people are stealing,
• 32:12
  you know, from corporations, the all of our personal information, right? And our social security
• 32:17
  numbers and our credit card and our data, you know, and all of that stuff. So it really is kind of a
• 32:24
  darker world now. I don't know that I could write a funny book about ransomware attacks.
• 32:30
  Yeah. I'm not sure it's out there. It's just, you know, what do you, oh, yeah, it's hard to turn a
• 32:37
  joke around on that. That's for sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I ended up kind of feeling like this feels
• 32:44
  a little bit like kind of a Robin Hood story. Yeah. You know, yeah. Thank you. That's a nice thing to say.
• 32:50
  I like that. Yeah. I was just thinking about how we just had our credit card numbers stolen.
• 32:56
  Oh, no. Even worse, they were debit cards. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is worse. Yeah. Frank
• 33:03
  Appagnell is the man who wrote Catch Me If You Can. And he was just incredible and he read
• 33:13
  ruse, you know, the publisher sent him a copy. And you know, they, the publishers, when they,
• 33:17
  they take your book, they send it out to people that have books that are written books similar to yours.
• 33:22
  And they ask these people if they will consider reading it. And if they can, we'll consider reading
• 33:27
  it. If they read it and they liked it, will they give you a testimonial? What they call a blurb?
• 33:31
  And, you know, I'm like, okay, send it to Catch Me If You Can guy, but he's not going to respond.
• 33:36
  And she or not, he did respond. He said, yeah, I'll read it. And then he read it and he,
• 33:39
  and he came back. He's like, I love this book. I'm going to, I want to write a blurb for you,
• 33:43
  which they put on the cover of the book. And Frank Appagnell talks about your exact situation. He says,
• 33:50
  that's a reason not to use debit cards is because you use the debit card. You don't have the
• 33:56
  protection, the way you do with the credit card. So with the credit card, if they get your credit card
• 34:02
  and they ring it up and they have $72,000 on it, you're not responsible for any of it. But with the debit
• 34:08
  card, if they get money out of your account, it's very difficult to get that money back. And so Frank
• 34:13
  Appagnell, for that reason, he advises people not to have debit cards. Not to use debit cards.
• 34:20
  Well, and I worked as a teller. And that's advice that even at that low level position within a
• 34:27
  financial institution, that's something that we would share with people like, yeah, certain purchases,
• 34:35
  it's going to be a lot safer to use a credit card. I mean, we got lucky. And thankfully, this
• 34:40
  wasn't someone that had the physical card and they didn't have the pin. And they were making some
• 34:47
  very obviously suspicious transactions. And so none of that came out of our end. But yeah, it was one
• 34:55
  debit card after the other. So I mean, we were really lucky that they were watching it. And certainly
• 35:03
  happy that they got us all squared away. But you're thinking, man, a week before Christmas. And like,
• 35:10
  the smallest small business. Oh, no. Well, I'm glad I'm glad it worked out because you would have
• 35:18
  had to put me on the case to track them down. Exactly. Now we know what to call exactly. Exactly.
• 35:24
  Yeah. Hey, listen, if Frank Abbick-Nill is going to write you a blurb, I mean, that's pretty
• 35:31
  compelling stuff, right? Yeah, it was really beautiful. And then he recommended me to his
• 35:36
  speaking agency. And I mean, he's just been a real stand-up guy. And you know, I feel like I hear that
• 35:44
  when people talk about him in interviews and you go, huh. Like, there's so many things that,
• 35:51
  I guess, not that you expect him to just be this awful guy, but you're like, wow, it really seems
• 35:57
  like he's gone out of his way to help out a lot of people. And you go, okay, all right, that makes me
• 36:04
  feel good. And you know, seems like he's kind of got things going on the right track in his life.
• 36:10
  And oh, yeah, I mean, I think he's worked for the FBI for many years helping them, helping them catch
• 36:16
  people. You know, they're doing the kind of scams that he was doing before. Just like now, I,
• 36:22
  you know, go up and speak and talk to corporations. And you know, they don't really listen that much,
• 36:28
  but I do. I do try to talk to them and say, you, you guys got to train your people. And especially young
• 36:35
  people entering the market have grown up in an era of digital transparency, where privacy has
• 36:44
  sort of gone by the wayside. And so, right. And so people, you know, and of course, you know, we live in
• 36:51
  an era with social media where people post, you know, they post pictures of what they have for
• 36:56
  breakfast, they post pictures of, you know, so there's a little bit of the oversharing thing. And of
• 37:00
  course, in a corporation, you know, those things can get, you know, firms into trouble where a young
• 37:08
  person who doesn't know better has not been trained. Now, maybe is speaking to someone that they
• 37:14
  have not properly verified. And now they're, they're giving information up that they shouldn't give.
• 37:19
  And I think, you know, corporations, and it's not the, it's not the responsibility of the young
• 37:24
  person because they're supposed to be trained. If you're not training people, what's appropriate to
• 37:29
  share, what's not appropriate to share, how you verify people are, you know, how do you verify
• 37:35
  that an email is legitimate of tech? Cause, you know, fishing comes in all, you know, manners, right?
• 37:40
  It's gotten really very bad too. The frequency and sometimes they're, they're pretty clever.
• 37:46
  Very clever. There are times where I go, wow, this is really impressive. And I have a little trick
• 37:53
  that I use and I encourage people, which is the 30 second rule that when you get the odd text,
• 37:58
  when you get the odd email or phone call, you, and you, you, you, something's going on in your head.
• 38:05
  You're like, should I click it? 30 seconds. Right. 30 seconds. They just think about it.
• 38:12
  Cause once you think about it, and you look at it again, and you reread it again, and you see
• 38:17
  the syntax isn't right or you check the email and it comes from, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 38:23
  blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that has nothing to do with the company that it's, you know,
• 38:26
  all of a sudden you go, oh, but, but for a moment there, it was, yeah.
• 38:33
  Yeah, pretty convincing. Oh, wait, this says Uzbekistan.com. Like, what? Yeah.
• 38:41
  Yeah, that's good advice. The 30 second rule could have saved me some trouble. I probably would receive
• 38:49
  less spicy text messages on my corporate cell phone if I had done that. My very first day,
• 38:58
  I got an email from the CEO and he said, I need you to send me your cell phone number because I have
• 39:06
  an urgent task for you. And I thought, okay, well, it's a CEO, of course you, you know, so my first day,
• 39:14
  wow, I haven't even met the CEO yet. He's not there in the office. And I thought, okay, this email
• 39:21
  address, there's really nothing suspicious about it other than the fact that it's not his corporate
• 39:27
  one. And I thought, well, this could very easily be, you know, his personal one. Of course.
• 39:32
  Nothing like that stood out really too much. And I'm like, all they want is my cell phone number.
• 39:36
  Right. Well, I mean, why would that ever be a problem? Right, Robert?
• 39:43
  Right. Come on. Yeah, I think I invented that ploy, by the way.
• 39:47
  Sorry. Yeah, thank my bad.
• 39:52
  Yeah, I mean, look, again, that's taking advantage of the new person, of the, of the young person,
• 40:00
  of the junior person. And I did the same thing, which was, you know, we would utilize LinkedIn once
• 40:06
  it was invented. But even before then, we would really try to target in our initial calls for corporate
• 40:14
  information. We would, we would never go in directly where we wanted the information. That was the
• 40:19
  last call you would make because if you got shut down, because these people, you know, it happened
• 40:24
  that people would go, wait a second. Now, I don't buy this. I'm not giving you any information.
• 40:29
  I'm reporting you to corporate security. So we would do all of this kind of around the periphery.
• 40:34
  And we would utilize and take advantage of young people who were not trained to give us
• 40:41
  information so that we could learn as much as we could so that when we called the real executive or
• 40:47
  the real assistance of the executive in the area that we wanted the secret, we knew so much about
• 40:53
  what was going on with the firm. We had done so much homework that, of course, it sounded completely
• 40:58
  believable that we said, you know, we were off site at the off site, you know, with the ski resort
• 41:06
  where they were having the off site. Yeah, you know, where all the executives were, you know,
• 41:12
  oh, well, how could this person know the hotel where all the executives were staying the time and the
• 41:18
  meetings, which we got from junior people? So then it made a complete sense that they would go,
• 41:24
  well, well, all the executives are over there and they need this document for the presentation about
• 41:30
  our new product or whatever it is, the secret new product. Right. And so again, you were, you were,
• 41:35
  you know, that was the same kind of thing that we were doing to get corporate secrets.
• 41:38
  Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's a good one. Oh, they all need this presentation. So of course, of course,
• 41:44
  you don't want them to not get the presentation. No, it goes back to that, you know, you got to be a
• 41:49
  team player and you got to keep all of the executives happy. Man, I would have been roost so hard. You were.
• 41:57
  Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, I came from a background where, you know, doctors don't take really
• 42:05
  hardly any calls and, you know, normally they like to keep themselves busy throughout the day,
• 42:12
  seeing patients. And so I was very used to a gatekeeping role when I worked in a clinic. And so you think,
• 42:19
  well, I'm not going to be fooled. Right. Yeah. Well, oh boy. Don't take this the wrong way, but you were
• 42:27
  my ideal target is the person that says, I'm never going to be ruse. No way. All on because as soon as
• 42:34
  you have that level of confidence, you're setting yourself up for the fall as opposed to going,
• 42:41
  look, man, I'm going to stay on my toes because on any given day, somebody can slip something by me.
• 42:48
  Any, but you know, if I'm not, you know, I got a const and be thinking about it, looking at it, you know,
• 42:53
  because sometimes people that had that level of confidence, we were able to utilize that against them.
• 43:00
  Yes. Yes. It's definitely put me back on my toes. I will say that. Good. Good.
• 43:07
  At least that one was benign. Yeah. I think you're safe now. Yeah. I'd like to think so.
• 43:13
  Let's see. Now on my second listening of the book, I really glommed on to again, a term. And I'm
• 43:23
  hoping that it's going to be one that you remember sort of the origin story of. And so we'll see,
• 43:31
  did you come up with the term ethical elasticity? Oh, that's a great question. You know, that might have been,
• 43:41
  I can't remember. You know, so when you have a book, you know, you get an editor and the editor works
• 43:47
  with you on the book. And I had a couple of great editors. And I mean, I'm sure I had elasticity
• 43:55
  in there. And I had ethical thing in there. And I actually think the editor at some point might
• 43:59
  have combined those two like one word, one word, one of Benin's the prior sentence in the other word.
• 44:04
  And then as he was editing, he was like, cross this, cross this, put this up, you know, all of a sudden,
• 44:08
  it was ethical elasticity. So I can't take the credit for that. I think the editor came up with that.
• 44:13
  That is so interesting. And it is really interesting to me to hear from different authors that we've
• 44:19
  talked to. What the editing process looks like. And over time, you know, obviously they're taking
• 44:27
  something that you've created. And I mean, a really intensive process writing a book of course. But
• 44:34
  you have all of these fantastic ideas, but they're able to really like, you know, spit shine it
• 44:38
  for you. Yes. Some of those things. I mean, who won an undertaking though. Yeah. And having a
• 44:45
  great editor, I mean, you know, again, for your listeners out there that are maybe contemplating
• 44:50
  writing a book, writing their memoir, which I highly recommend. You know, self-publishing is viable.
• 44:57
  The one thing I would say is if you are going to write a book and if you and you know, you do
• 45:02
  decide to self-publish it, you know, you got to get that great editor. Not your mom, not your partner,
• 45:09
  not your brother, not your best friend, a professional editor that is really going to spit shine
• 45:16
  it, which is a great term. Because you're going to put that out into the world. And once you put it out
• 45:21
  there, it's out there, you know, and you want it to be good. You know, you don't want to have,
• 45:27
  you know, 16 exclamation points on every page. And like I said, that ethical elasticity term that
• 45:37
  I think was the editor seeing, hey, and of course, you've got the, you know, alliteration there.
• 45:44
  You know, it's just, you know, and editors are great at that, you know, and my editor, you know, he cut,
• 45:50
  I forget how many words he cut out of the final version, but close to about 10,000 words.
• 45:56
  So yeah, so I'm going to say the book was, I think the book is around 90,000 words and as funny as
• 46:02
  writers, I always talk in terms of words, not pages, because pages, you know, can be adjusted by fonts,
• 46:10
  you know, the size of the font on the page and, you know, a lot of different things. So I think the book
• 46:16
  was close to 100,000 words and he cut, I think, about 8,000,000 words out. So about 10% of the book,
• 46:21
  which is not uncommon. I think Stephen King, he wrote a great book called On Writing,
• 46:28
  which is a book I highly recommend if anybody is out there is thinking about writing it.
• 46:32
  We got to read that. Did you read it? I think we had to read it for a class.
• 46:36
  Yeah, yeah, it's a great book. Yeah, and it's a pretty easy book to read too, you know.
• 46:40
  I mean, I actually think it's his best book, but hey, Stephen, don't get mad at me.
• 46:44
  But you know what? I'm inclined to agree. Anything else in his wheelhouse is really too scary for her.
• 46:52
  Yeah. Yeah. But he did, he wrote a wonderful book about very practical, like literally how to write a
• 47:00
  book. It's so, and it's short and it's easy to read. And he, I think he talked about writing an extra
• 47:09
  20% because you can expect 20% of your book to be cut down by your own editor.
• 47:15
  So in my case, it was 10%, but I can't remember it was 10 or 20%. But you know, the idea that
• 47:22
  when you turn in your book, you need to be prepared that it's going to cut down some. And so,
• 47:27
  you know, if you're turning in a book that's 60,000 words, that might be too short.
• 47:32
  Yeah. You know, if you're looking for an add-a-boy, and like, oh, perfect as is, probably an editor is not
• 47:39
  what you're looking for. No, no, that's not going to happen. And it shouldn't happen. It really shouldn't
• 47:43
  happen. I mean, editors, they can drive you crazy because a lot of times they're so picky.
• 47:49
  But at the end of the day, it's critical to have a really great editor.
• 47:54
  Well, I love that. I love that kind of having that second set of eyes. And I think, you know, most
• 48:02
  people, even if you're not familiar with, you know, the premise of self-publishing or, you know,
• 48:08
  with writing a book, you understand that there is an editing process, but seeing how something like
• 48:15
  that comes out and how they're able to really bring out the absolute best in your creative work,
• 48:21
  I think that's very cool. Are you working on any other books right now? Are you working?
• 48:28
  You have any other literary project? That was my question.
• 48:31
  Oh, well, that's a great question. Well, I have two literary projects. One is very altruistic,
• 48:39
  which is I started a literary salon here in Malibu called the Soho House Literary Salon at Soho House
• 48:48
  Malibu. And the idea that I had was I wanted to, you know, promote other writers. And I have a lot
• 48:54
  of friends at a writers. And so the idea is once a month, I pick a book that I really feel passionate
• 49:01
  about and we have an event, the writer comes and we sit in the front of this beautiful room over
• 49:06
  looking at the Pacific Ocean and have a couple of cocktails and people come. And we talk about the
• 49:13
  book and there's a bookseller there so people can buy the book, they get the book signed. And this,
• 49:19
  you know, and again, I don't know when this will air, but I'm about to do one with ESPN sports media
• 49:27
  Legend Steven A Smith. And he's, you know, probably the most famous sports announcer in the world right
• 49:34
  now. And he has a new memoir out called Straight Shooter, which is the story of his life. And I'm going
• 49:39
  to interview him and talk about his book and his history and whatnot, which is really exciting. So
• 49:45
  that's very exciting. I mean, Steven, Steven A does not need my help in selling any books, but
• 49:52
  some of my other authors did. And so I really felt good about helping get the word out about their books.
• 49:58
  And then I have a new book. This is actually fiction, but it's in the realm of ruse, you know,
• 50:05
  because ruse is obviously about about cons and scams. This book is about a world renowned antique
• 50:14
  Islamic carpet expert, who's also a bit of a con man. And it's called sex, rugs, and rock and roll.
• 50:23
  Love it. We're going to have to read that one. Yeah. So that's great. Yeah. So it's basically about
• 50:30
  this guy who's made his living identifying rare carpets and tapestries and rugs that are worth
• 50:38
  believe it or not in some situations, millions of dollars. Yes. And he finds these items in garage sales,
• 50:47
  at a state sales with people that don't know that they've got a carpet that is 500 years old.
• 50:55
  They know what they got. Well, I know it's valuable. I know my great grandfather came over from
• 51:00
  so and so with it. And it's been in the fall. I know it's probably worth. Well, of course, it's worth
• 51:05
  some money. It's worth 15,000, 15,000 dollars. Oh my god. And then he sells it for 650,000 dollars.
• 51:12
  Oh boy. Yeah. So it's like a dark antique roadshow. Yeah.
• 51:16
  Dork. I'm going to use that in the in the in the description. Dork antique roadshow. Yeah. So it's
• 51:26
  good. Oh, yeah. Dark dark and dark. Maybe I don't know. There's something there. You workshop it with
• 51:32
  the editor. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So anyway, so that book is almost done. And it's funny because
• 51:39
  it's fiction, but it's very similar in the rules that it's about a con. It's fast moving. It's funny.
• 51:45
  So I hope people will enjoy it. Oh, that's very exciting. Do you have kind of an anticipated release
• 51:54
  timeframe? No, no, not yet. Not yet. No, I mean, books. It's crazy. How long they take the right?
• 52:01
  Then how long they take to edit. And then even once the book is finished from the time it's finished,
• 52:07
  the editor has finished the book until the book comes out is at least a year. Oh my goodness.
• 52:13
  I know. Yeah, that is a long time. Now self publishing is different. Of course, I'm talking about
• 52:17
  traditional publishing because the publishing house, you know, they have to, you know, get it set up
• 52:24
  in all of the marketing thing. And they've sent it around to all the reviewers. And they sent it
• 52:29
  around to all the newspapers. And they said, you know, and they need a lot of time to do that so that
• 52:34
  there's, you know, a way to sell a lot of books, you know, self publishing, you know, you could,
• 52:40
  you know, you can do it very quickly. And that is one of the advantages of self publishing is you
• 52:44
  can get a book out there quickly. Now, it can also be a detriment. If you write your book and you're
• 52:48
  like, okay, it's ready to go. And then all of a sudden, because I think that's what happens to
• 52:52
  a lot of people. They're so excited that they publish it and they skip the lot of steps.
• 52:58
  To make it as good as it could be, you know. And that makes sense. That makes sense.
• 53:04
  That's good advice because I think as our show has kind of grown, we've found that we have a lot of
• 53:11
  other types of creatives that have linked up with our show. Right. Yeah. So good advice. Yeah,
• 53:19
  it's right. It's true for anything. Musicians, you know, now you can make an album and record your
• 53:23
  own album at home, you know, and then you can put it out on, you know, YouTube or whatever. And that's
• 53:28
  great. And that's fantastic. But take the time to do the same things that the professionals do. Because
• 53:34
  you're basically trying to say, I am a professional. You know, hey, check out my album. Hey, check out my
• 53:39
  book. So, you know, a professional is going to have a producer in the studio that's going,
• 53:44
  "Neeh, I don't like this tune. This tune is not good enough." Or, you know, we need to re-record the
• 53:49
  vocals on this. So, whatever, you know. And so, you know, it's like, you know, I think I encourage people
• 53:56
  to write their stories, especially in memoir. People have amazing stories. You know, so many times,
• 54:03
  I teach a writing class in Melbourne. People come in. This woman came in and she had been arrested
• 54:08
  69 times. Wow. My goodness.
• 54:12
  Protesting. So, really, really cool, really cool woman with an amazing story. She'd been arrested 69
• 54:18
  times. I'm like, there's your title, you know, 69 arrests or, you know, something like that, you know.
• 54:22
  And, you know, you can't make up her story because it was true. You know, it was an incredible story.
• 54:30
  And so, I was encouraging her to write it. But, you know, she had a whole bunch of stuff. And she
• 54:35
  basically was like, "Okay, can I publish this?" And I'm like, "No, you cannot publish this yet."
• 54:41
  You need to hone it down. You need to edit it. You need to find, you need to spit shine it.
• 54:45
  Which a lot of people don't want to hear. Yeah, I can understand that. You know, you pour a lot of
• 54:52
  love into it and it feels like you've spent so much time and energy and it's a lot to then feel
• 54:59
  like there's still more to do. I know. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it's true for me too,
• 55:05
  all the time because you always think it's done and then somebody looks at it and goes, "Oh, wow."
• 55:10
  You know what? You know, I'll submit it like an essay, you know, like a 10-page essay that I think
• 55:14
  is ready to be published. You know what? The editor will respond. The first paragraph is unbelievable.
• 55:19
  You're like, "The first paragraph, it's 12 pages."
• 55:24
  There you go. First paragraph. And then what I want you to do is instead of going in the direction
• 55:32
  you went for an 11 and a half pages, I want you to go this other direction. You're like, "Oh, great."
• 55:39
  But at least they like the first paragraph. Yeah. Awesome.
• 55:44
  No, I would not advise writing for as a career. I would definitely advise it as an
• 55:51
  avocation rather than a career that you're expecting to, you know, support yourself because it's not,
• 55:58
  it's likely not going to happen. And I'm a pretty optimistic person, but it is a very tough
• 56:03
  business to, you know, to use to support yourself. It definitely seems like it. That's like kind of
• 56:10
  your lane, though. You like to pick a difficult career. Yeah. I have a buddy who said that to me because,
• 56:19
  you know, again, I was an actor and I was a working actor and as you both know, I did, you know,
• 56:23
  50 major TV shows and my college roommate when I, he came in one of the book releases back east and
• 56:30
  he said, "Only you would pick something harder than acting to do now." Well kidding. I know. Really.
• 56:39
  I know. I think I didn't expect it. I figured that the only connection in terms of, you know,
• 56:49
  the true crime genre would be the rusing. But I have to say, when you got to
• 56:56
  shooting the exercise video with OJ, I was just like, "Oh my God. I'm going to be reading this book
• 57:06
  multiple times, obviously." Oh, you know, that is so funny. I never made that connection. Believe it or not,
• 57:13
  of I've written a true crime book while also being part of the true crime trial of the century.
• 57:22
  Yeah. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, humble brag, right? Yeah. Well, look, I only played a small part.
• 57:32
  I was not involved in, you know. Sure. Sure. No, but it's such an interesting part of the story.
• 57:40
  And I can see where, again, it goes back to, this is your lived experience. And in some ways,
• 57:46
  you realize that, you know, it's like this very unique thing, but it's like just kind of flies
• 57:52
  straight overhead how significant that is and how people are just blown away by, I mean, I'm sorry,
• 58:00
  you did what? Yeah. Yeah. No, my wife and I were recently, we read an event and we ran into the man
• 58:08
  that was the district attorney of Los Angeles during the OJ Simpson trial. His name was Gil Garcetti.
• 58:15
  And his son, Eric was recently the mayor of Los Angeles. And my wife, because, you know, I wasn't
• 58:21
  going to say anything, but you know, my wife's a booster. And so she's telling Gil Garcetti, who is
• 58:27
  really lovely, wonderful man. And she was saying, oh, my husband's got a crazy OJ Simpson story.
• 58:32
  And Gil Garcetti's like, oh, my God. Like, if I had, yeah, enough. Like, you know, I, you know,
• 58:38
  I've heard every dead and so she started to tell the story. And he was like, okay, that is pretty
• 58:44
  funny. Like, even he got the whole thing that here I am, you know, a, basically a dancer in an exercise
• 58:50
  video with OJ Simpson witnessing this guy, you know, and his behavior and his reprehensible behavior
• 58:59
  literally right before the murders took place. And developing this very weird bond with him, you know,
• 59:05
  obviously, you know, for whatever reason he took a liking to me, I think, because my dancing in the
• 59:10
  video was so bad it made him look good. You know, they were literally the choreographer was going to
• 59:16
  fire me until OJ went, whoa, you can't get rid of Rob because his dancing is so bad it's making me
• 59:23
  look good. You know. And that would be me. So I feel not very relatable as well. That's why,
• 59:30
  that's absolutely why a celebrity would keep me around. Like, I need someone less coordinated to,
• 59:37
  you know, make sure that other people have someone to point and laugh at. Exactly. Yeah. That's why I
• 59:43
  keep you around. Yeah. Yeah. So for your listeners, you can Google OJ Simpson workout video, OJ Simpson
• 59:51
  outtakes from the workout video and you'll see two things. You'll see OJ doing horrible, terrible
• 59:59
  things that at the time we were the only people on the planet that knew about because there was no
• 1:00:04
  YouTube back then. And the other thing is is looking at me in the background, sweating profusely in this
• 1:00:11
  gray shirt with a very stern expression on his face, you're going to go, he looks like the guy that
• 1:00:17
  might have committed the crime. I know I have seen it before, but I'm going to find it so that we can
• 1:00:26
  link it in the show. Oh, that's fine. You should do that. Yeah. Because I mean, even now when I look at
• 1:00:32
  it, I'm like, why did they not bring me in for questioning? I have no idea. Yeah. Because I'm in the
• 1:00:40
  background doing my bad exercise moves. I mean, I look like there's something wrong with that guy.
• 1:00:45
  I really thought, oh, this is where Robert has to tell like a very different side of his, like
• 1:00:52
  celebrity stories. Like, I thought for sure as well. I'm thinking, yeah, I think he's going to get
• 1:00:59
  dragged in maybe. We'll see how this plays out. Yeah, that would have been that really would
• 1:01:04
  would have been a true crime, true crime show, right? You know, like different book, different
• 1:01:09
  double dip. Yeah, double dip. Yeah. Well, perfect. Before we lose you to, I mean, my goodness,
• 1:01:16
  that gorgeous Malibu glow. I'm not jealous at all. Okay.
• 1:01:24
  I'm going to grab our tarot deck. Oh, yes. I very sure. Yes. It was a, I know I saw the credit card
• 1:01:32
  charges come through for $39.99. It was on my debit card, though. I don't know what the heck. I didn't
• 1:01:38
  even know that debit card. Yeah, you're not supposed to use those. I heard. That's what I heard. Yeah,
• 1:01:43
  you know, I never listen to any of these corporate security experts. Well, who does? Exactly.
• 1:01:51
  Okay. So Cassie, I did our shuffle here. Do you want to select card number one? Okay, is this for the book?
• 1:01:58
  I'm going to go ahead and say I'm pulling a card just for more inside about the book. Anything
• 1:02:06
  that we want to do. Okay, and I'll pick Robert's card. I'll take, I'll, I'll, yeah, step in front of that.
• 1:02:14
  Bullet drain. This is funny. We got the justice card. We just got that one recently. And it's not
• 1:02:25
  in reverse, though. It's in, it's right. Side up. Wow. Well, I mean, that could not be more appropriate.
• 1:02:32
  I know. Isn't that funny? That is really incredible. That the corporate spy gets the justice card.
• 1:02:40
  And a little taste of justice, spoiler alert, right? Let's see, I'm going to go to the interpretation.
• 1:02:48
  And we have our deck is PNW themed. So it has a bunch of different animals from the Pacific
• 1:02:55
  Northwest on it. And I think this was the Osprey, right? I think you're right. Yeah. Holding a fish.
• 1:03:01
  Yeah. Well, surprising. No one are keywords for the justice card. Our rectification,
• 1:03:09
  decision, finding balance, legal matters. I don't, I mean, does any of that seem to ring about?
• 1:03:17
  I love rectification. I think that's great. Because you know, that's one of the things, you know,
• 1:03:20
  when you write, when you, you know, you spend so many of your, so much of your life, you know,
• 1:03:25
  basically your job is lying for a living. You know, you know, there's, there's, again, there's a lot
• 1:03:31
  of that that I'm not proud of. And so there's been this, you know, rectification process in writing
• 1:03:36
  the book, coming clean, being honest. And then, of course, now trying to be of some small service
• 1:03:42
  to people so that they're not getting scammed or ripped off. Now, look, at the end of the day,
• 1:03:47
  do I feel bad for Goldman Sachs, the Goldman Sachs and the Wells Fargoes and the blah, blah,
• 1:03:52
  blah, blahs of the world? Not really. No. No. No. I'm really certainly hope not. No, not really,
• 1:03:58
  you know, and that's what I think is that most of my rusing was targeting, it were all of the
• 1:04:04
  rusing was targeting corporations. Now, of course, there were people that I was tricking at those
• 1:04:09
  corporations. So those individuals were, you know, being rused. And that's the part that I don't
• 1:04:13
  feel great about. So I'm, I like that word. That's, I mean, I think that's what makes us human, right?
• 1:04:20
  Yeah. You can feel bad for those, you know, specific instances, but yeah, I'm with you.
• 1:04:29
  If anybody wants to give you a hard time, they can, I'll send them, I'll send them your right.
• 1:04:33
  Yeah. Yeah. Send as many people as you know our way.
• 1:04:37
  So the mall. Okay. And that's interesting. We got another major arcina card.
• 1:04:43
  I'm curious. Have you ever had your cards read before?
• 1:04:48
  Oh, I'm going to say I have, but it was so long ago I don't remember it. You know, I mean,
• 1:04:55
  I would, I think I had to have had it want somewhere, you know, it's kind of one of those experiences
• 1:05:01
  that I feel like everybody does at some point or another. Yeah. We got the temperance card. It was
• 1:05:07
  in reverse. And there's some sort of turtle on it. The turtles mean anything to you?
• 1:05:15
  Well, in Hawaii, turtles are good luck. So if you see a turtle, because, yeah, because I think they
• 1:05:23
  believe the Polynesians believe that your soul like, like it can be reincarnated as turtles.
• 1:05:32
  You know, yeah, something like that. I'm probably getting this really, really wrong. But,
• 1:05:36
  but I do know that the Polynesians believe that your, the spirits of your ancestors are in turtles.
• 1:05:43
  Not I'm sure that's other creatures too, but specifically turtles. So it's good luck to see a turtle.
• 1:05:48
  What do you know? I like that. Well, and I think this, I don't, I'm going to go out on a limb here
• 1:05:55
  and say this might be more in line with you as a person currently in your life. Keywords for this card
• 1:06:02
  are moderation, harmony, acceptance, resolution, cooperation, and patience. Okay. I mean, my, my wife
• 1:06:15
  is where is she because she would be telling you that that was the exact that that card is nothing
• 1:06:22
  to do with me. We did get it in the reverse. You did get it in the reverse. We got it in the reverse.
• 1:06:29
  Well, then, then that makes sense then because patience, cooperation, no, no, no.
• 1:06:36
  There's a cute little quote in the in the PNW books specifically. Do you want me to read it real quick?
• 1:06:43
  Sure. Okay. So the first little part of this is there is wisdom and staying in my shell.
• 1:06:47
  I'm safe from the raccoons prying paws and the hawk will think me a rock.
• 1:06:53
  Now, the one thing I think, I do think about the turtle thing and you know, that other part I think
• 1:07:00
  is true, but I think what it is is I have felt like I've been coming out of my shell because you know,
• 1:07:08
  I was as a, you know, as a young person, as you know, I only took the corporate spying job because I
• 1:07:13
  wanted to be an actor and I was trying very hard to be an actor and I did work a lot as an actor.
• 1:07:18
  But ultimately, my acting career didn't pan out the way I had hoped. And so, then I circled away
• 1:07:23
  from the creative part of me, which was very disappointing and did all of the spying and then
• 1:07:32
  took the job in corporate America, which was so miserable and then had the proverbial midlife crisis.
• 1:07:37
  And now I've circled back to the creative person that I had always wanted to be.
• 1:07:42
  And so, I mean, that goes back to your college day.
• 1:07:45
  Yeah, and I mean, and I think that's the turtle is really, that's really cool that I'm coming out of my
• 1:07:51
  shell as a writer now. And that's, that's, I think that's true and I'm really excited about that.
• 1:07:57
  And I hope I continue to come out of my shell as a writer.
• 1:07:59
  Yeah, that's great.
• 1:08:01
  I like that. That's a good, I feel like we feel the same here.
• 1:08:06
  So, I know we're going to be watching for updates about the fiction as well, because that one, I'm,
• 1:08:15
  I'm like too excited for that. I mean, I'll try to temper my excitement and
• 1:08:20
  patience, right? And, and you know, we didn't mention it. And I'll just briefly say, you know,
• 1:08:27
  keep your fingers crossed because, because Frank Abbott, Nail said such nice things about the book,
• 1:08:32
  Hollywood, you know, their ears pricked up because they're like, well, if they catch me if you can's name,
• 1:08:36
  this guy's name is on the cover of your book. And so, Ruse is in development for a TV series. Now,
• 1:08:42
  you know, yeah, which is great. And it's gone pretty far, but
• 1:08:46
  development, you know, there are a lot of things in development in Hollywood. And most of those never
• 1:08:51
  get made. So, I have a healthy dose of skepticism, but I got an email earlier today from the executive
• 1:08:58
  producer who has 20 shows on television saying, you know, excited to pick back up on Ruse now,
• 1:09:04
  because, you know, obviously the holidays, there was a little bit of a lag. And now we, you know,
• 1:09:08
  so, you know, who knows? Maybe at some point I can come back on and we can talk about the TV series.
• 1:09:13
  I hope so. Yeah, I mean, luckily for you, you have a little bit more of a background,
• 1:09:20
  you know, from your days where, you know, you were acting quite a bit and had a lot of
• 1:09:25
  roles and you understand how the industry works in that respect. Because otherwise, that would be a
• 1:09:31
  tough, tough thing to do. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you, you, you, to, to enter this business,
• 1:09:37
  you have to be prepared for a lot of disappointment and heartache. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, I've made it.
• 1:09:43
  And that's on a good day. No kidding. Yeah. Disappointment and heartache. That's a good day.
• 1:09:52
  I like that. Normally it's so crushing, you know, throat ripping out, you know what I mean? Yeah.
• 1:09:59
  Yeah. Yeah. You had some, you had some stories in that vein, for sure. Right. Yeah. Right.
• 1:10:05
  We're not going to tell everybody everything, you know, save some things for the book.
• 1:10:09
  Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.
• 1:10:12
  Well, thanks for coming on. That was really fun. I loved it. I loved the book.
• 1:10:20
  Well, you guys are fantastic. And anytime, you know, you, if you'll grace me to come back,
• 1:10:26
  we'll maybe pick an earlier spot in the day. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sorry.
• 1:10:31
  I'm not doing. Yeah. But I definitely, I definitely am getting a sunburn. So,
• 1:10:38
  oh no. It's a good problem to have in winter. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. We are living in the greatest part
• 1:10:48
  of the greatest, just everything is great. And it's rainy. And I love Oregon. I like it here.
• 1:10:55
  Are you convinced? Yes. I really do. But I'm ready for the change in season. So.
• 1:11:03
  Well, I tell everyone that is kind enough to have me on a podcast. If you're ever in SoCal,
• 1:11:10
  please let me know. You know, we'll meet up for the proverbial, a couple coffee or cocktail.
• 1:11:16
  I've had three people take me up on it already. And we've had really lovely times. So,
• 1:11:21
  I hope you guys will, you know, take me up on it if you're ever down this way. Oh, perfect.
• 1:11:26
  Well, I have to plan a trip. Yeah. I was going to say is if I needed another reason to visit Malibu.
• 1:11:31
  And come on. Yeah. Thank you so much, Robert. I'm super excited. I hope we'll be chatting with you
• 1:11:39
  again about your television re-day view. Okay. Well, thank you both. And have a great great weekend.
• 1:11:47
  You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
• 1:11:51
  So for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you
• 1:11:58
  want us to share, maybe with a whole Pacific Northwest. Yes. We would love to read them on the pod.
• 1:12:05
  Yes. We will read them out loud. Not just in our heads. Yes. They don't have to be from the Pacific
• 1:12:14
  Northwest. If you would like to share email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com.
• 1:12:23
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• 1:12:31
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• 1:12:38
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• 1:12:44
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• 1:12:53
  find us on patreon and support the show. Bitchin. Pnwhauntsandhomicides.com
• 1:13:07
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• 1:13:35
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