Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 266. LIVE! from Phoenix: Build Better Culture - Aila Malik, Lawanna Kimbro, Ted Vaughn, and Sara Cunningham

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266. LIVE! from Phoenix: Build Better Culture - Aila Malik, Lawanna Kimbro, Ted Vaughn, and Sara Cunningham · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Today's episode is sponsored by feather feather provides digital marketing tools and strategies for nonprofits of all shapes and sizes, including the Humane Society of North Central Florida. Stick around for the break to hear how feather power their $300 digital ad campaign that raised nearly$6,000 In just one day. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:24
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:33
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:42
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:52
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Happy Friday, Becky, what's up?
• 0:56
  Becky Endicott: Hey, John, good to see you. Thanks for coming back, everybody. We're glad you're here.
• 1:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, we are so excited. We're kicking off a little mini series here. We're going to take it over, you know, we just got back from the responsive nonprofit Summit, presented by virtuous. And guys, we've got like the fullest hearts from that experience. I gotta tell you, Ash, the people that converge the topics that were covered, and just the good vibes were so high, that we're like, how can we bring this to the podcast, because, you know, there was more than 2000 people that joined us. But we want to really lift these conversations, because the stuff that was talked about, we believe is game changing and meets the moment.
• 1:29
  Jonathan McCoy: And so we're calling this little series called build back better.
• 1:32
  Jonathan McCoy: And we're going to uncover over the next couple of weeks how to build a better culture, how to build better boards, how to build better storytelling, and how to tap into giving circles, which is this really beautiful way that philanthropy and community are converging. So we want to jump in today with our first conversation.
• 1:49
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, we're talking about how do you build better cultures. And I want to introduce you to our panelists just really quickly, because they are really the game changers about how do you build the right culture to become a magnetic organization, and the first person who joined our panel, and all of these people have been on the podcast, we adore them. Ted Vaughan, he's the co founder of historic agency wrote the co authored that great book culture built my brand. And the way that Ted thinks about culture is just so instructive and empowering. And we love how he looks at brands and how brands are a reflection of that culture and how to build the brand from the inside out.
• 2:22
  Becky Endicott: And the second person we had on was our dear friend, Sarah Cunningham. She's the founder of free mom hugs. She's just an author and activist. She is the queen of loving on people. And we just love how much she has gathered a global community of parents and advocates for the LGBTQ community who are really fighting for human rights for all. And the third person we had, who is coming on the podcast soon, I said, everybody, but this one is about to come on the podcast is an incredible force for good lawanna Kimbrough, she's the managing director of startups fund. And she is just a brilliant evolved, thought leader on leadership experiences within social service agencies, she is an empower, and when she talks, I can assure you we listen. And the last person who was on our panel was the incredible incomparable Isla Mei like, She's the founder and principal at venture leadership consulting, in even though she's a liar by schooling, she's just spent her life kind of leading organizations through change, she does it through empowerment at the bottom of the base, which you know, is where we love to stay, and empowers all the way to the top. So we hope this conversation really awakens something in you to really power that culture into your organization, do an audit, and figure out ways that we can really build cultures back that value, everybody equally.
• 3:46
  Jonathan McCoy: Ted, I would love for you to set tone and let's just talk about why culture like why has it become this important topic? You have poured a lot of your work and your effort and your thought leadership into this, why start there and kind of set the tone for us?
• 3:59
  Ted Vaughn: Yeah, I mean, I think we have to start with what culture is because no matter what you call it, company, culture, organizational culture, workplace culture, it's a really blurry term. And it's frequently used, but rarely, I think, truly understood. So it's hard to change something that's blurry and not understood and yet used so often. So I define culture and the work of our agency as how organizations do things, super simple. Aristotle said we are what we repeatedly do. So if you want to know what your company culture is, ultimately, you want to look at how your people, your employees, your stakeholders behave, especially senior leadership, because that's where you'll find the real beliefs and values that drive your organization forward.
• 4:45
  Ted Vaughn: Oh, Ted, you're
• 4:49
  Becky Endicott: so wise and I just really want to push everybody to try and go check out the culture built my brand book. We've had an entire podcast episode on this and it will change and re Wire the way that you think about culture, and how it's integrated, not from the top down, but really from the bottom up. So thank you, Ted for that. And I just want to tell our panelists, if you have anything that you want to add to this, just jump in here because your voices are so important. But I got to kick it to lawanna lawanna, one of the things we love so much about you is the way that you show up, and you are incredibly inclusive, and you really work on that dei mentality. And it's not just the diversity of our, you know, backgrounds and thoughts. It's, it's a complete look at how we're integrating everything that we know and do into the culture of our work. So I want you to kind of talk a little bit about this phrase, culture fit.
• 5:40
  Becky Endicott: And I know, we've all heard that in our positions. And there's a problem with that. And it's really creating some biases. So talk a little bit about that word, and how we can start to break that down and define it so that it brings more inclusive cultures into our organizations.
• 5:59
  Lawanna Kimbro: Absolutely. And I hope you can feel through the screen that I'm levitating with joy to be here today, I'm very excited to talk about this topic, because I think it's the most fixable, changeable thing in our organizations, there's nothing about our organizations are inevitable. That's the good news. And so I want to say just a little something about culture fit, by way of example, and I am going to send you some Liberty papers, coming to this great panel that we were all excited, or we were given some facilitation directions like no bright colors. And I will tell you, I met that I met that directive by wearing detail in Burns, right? And so that let you know what I feel about fit.
• 6:41
  Lawanna Kimbro: And this these phases deserve sort of the illumination of teal and birds. But I wanted to be a little bit more serious. So you gave a great, really amazing preamble about the work that I do. But I also want to give an example of how we have grappled inside of startups with this question you've put to us. And I will say I have the privilege of working with a luminary who's an artist and an abolitionist. And I couldn't be more different, right. I'm a civil rights attorney, and a mental health counselor from the Deep South.
• 7:18
  Lawanna Kimbro: And a part of when we're thinking about the types of teams that we need to pull together for our audacious vision, we have to think about who's in the room? And who's not, and why. And we cannot be afraid of those answers. A lot of times when we think about, you know how we build equitable futures, we have to make sure that we are bringing in to our audacious mission, people who are reflective of the communities that we serve. And so you're absolutely right to say, it's not just about demographics, it's not just that I am a black woman from impacted community, right. She when she was thinking about assembling her team, she's She also thought, what other perspectives do I need the table now give me just a quick example. But you shouldn't trust it's quick. I'm a black woman from the south. So we speak and you go. But a quick example is, you know, so I could just do it for length up as an attorney, she could have found a career philanthropist. But she said, I want a scrappy civil rights attorney who's been in community and in bureaucracies, and she didn't stop there, I get to work really closely with my colleagues who do impact investing. And the reason why I get to be at that table and have a vote is that they want also diversity of ideas and opinions.
• 8:41
  Lawanna Kimbro: And what I will present to you today, we don't get to build the futures we care about with the same game plans, right. And so we need to be stretching ourselves constantly, around our mission and around the coalition we think can get us there.
• 9:31
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, lawanna, we love you this thank you so much for that tone setting, because I heard you say fear.
• 9:37
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think that's a real thing that there's fear. I think it takes a special kind of leader to be able to lean into this type of change. And I'm so excited because I love Malik is here and I want to kick her a question because she works with leaders on the frontline. She's oftentimes a leader on the frontlines, and so I want to kick it to you, I'll let her say, you know, how can leaders more intentionally shape this?
• 9:58
  Jonathan McCoy: How can they show up and ask those tough questions and kind of take us to that place?
• 10:01
  Aila Malik: So this is the first time I'm thank you guys for having me here. I will do anything. I always say I'll do anything that John and Becky pull me into I'm saying yes, but always John and Becky I'm gonna say yes. And Julia because they're amazing. And you panelist had Sarah lawanna. I think this is I feel like we're such kinship and I haven't even met you guys. I fully just want to double click on Ted's opening comment on normed behavior, a culture is is understood and experienced by the behaviors that are normed by that up and down bottom organization or that entity. And I want to double click on Mallanna of who's not in the room? And why what intentionality of who you've assembled and how, and the diversity of thought that she mentioned. You know, diversity is great in all aspects because it builds a better mousetrap when you have different folks in the room, different perspectives, different ideologies, different everything, right. And one really great tool that that I have learned in practice is called foresights. If you guys have heard of it, it's a fo you are si ght. And it's basically a little, you know, I love assessments because it's about, you know, one of your questions, John is around, like, what do we do as leaders to intentionally bring an uplift culture, and part of that is our own learning and learning about ourselves and our teens. And it's not navel gazing, it's intentional building an intentional understanding that we're not all going to be perfect. And that's not the goal. It's to understand where are our limitations? How do we work together as a team?
• 11:35
  Aila Malik: And so foresights is a cool tool. That is that looks at where are the default areas for creation and innovation, it ators implementers you know, where how does your brain naturally think IT project design. And so it's another way to bring inclusivity to the space that I just wanted to double click on from what lawanna said, from my perspective, the intent that leaders have, I'm going to say four things, and I'll be I'll be quick about them. So we can kind of move on to if I if I if I riff off of Ted and lawanna. And I fully believe that cultural fit is basically code now for a likeness and bias around likeness, it hides a lot, right.
• 12:16
  Aila Malik: And so and so if I believe all that, which is my bias, then what a leader can do is bring intentionality from the mission, what is the vision and the mission and the impact that you seek to have in the world, and understand that that vision and mission is not going to revolve around one person, and it's not going to be fixed in one person's career lifetime. So it's going to require if you're serious about eliminating racism, or you're serious about addressing equity and injustice, then you absolutely need to create a mechanism in which your mission lives on Zoom Room to Zoom Room until the task is done. And so your validation as a leader comes not from what you do, or how difficult it is for you to walk away or how much you missed. You got to check your ego and validation structure to be can other people almost perform the work without me? Can they say, Yeah, I look thanks for your input, but I actually didn't need it, or is are things running without you. That is where you get your validation.
• 13:19
  Aila Malik: And it's an unseen place as a leader. So you got to find your ways to self validate, and your people to keep you honest, and keep you whole and keep you seen. But I would say I would say check yourself as a leader and do the work, I would say number two is create transparency and clarity within your organization. So what are what is your role, my stance when I lead is nobody is ahead of the mission, not the CEO, not the board, not anybody, our loyalty is to the mission and to the community impact that we seek to have. And so here's the role I'm going to play and I need to be evaluated for that role. Accountability, evaluation is important. And what we need to know is what has to be true for that role to be successful.
• 14:04
  Aila Malik: So be very clear and transparent on what the role and expectations are, how do you achieve those things? How are we evaluating those things? So it's not clouded? And I like you or I don't like you or your lead like me? Or you're extroverted like me, it's not that it's what is what are the metrics of success and performance? And how is it that we are transparent about our accountability? Third, I would say, Make time to build to build connection with each other. We're humans. And it's been hard in a pandemic year, and there's a lot going on in the world, and so make time to play and have shared experiences.
• 14:45
  Aila Malik: Play hard, work hard. And then the last thing I'll say is look at your rituals as an organization. To me if normed behavior is how we, how we create culture, or how we experience culture, then the rituals when someone comes when someone leaves, when there's a client death, when there's a community catastrophe, are there rituals around those things, the ways that you are there, I've been to staff meetings where people are passing around totems, and right, like what are the rituals of your organization because that will help elevate the cultural tenants that in the values that you want to have. If you're if your culture is one of, you know, of, of community building and mentorship, then rituals around appreciation of you know, hey, you're my you're my colleague Your mentor day and anonymous postcard caught you being cool. Those might be cool rituals that help reinforce the values and the culture that you want to see. So I'll stop there.
• 15:46
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, this episode is presented by virtuous and they just happened to be one of our favorite companies. Let me tell you why.
• 15:50
  Jonathan McCoy: You know, we believe everyone matters. And we've witnessed the greatest philanthropic movements happen when you see and activate donors at every level. And here's the thing, virtuous created a fundraising platform to help you do just that. It's much more than a nonprofit CRM.
• 16:06
  Jonathan McCoy: Virtuous is committed to helping charities reimagine generosity through responsive fundraising, which is simply putting the donor at the center of fundraising, growing giving through personalized donor journeys, and by helping you respond to the needs of every individual. We love it because this approach builds trust and loyalty through personalized engagement. Some, like virtuous may be a fit for your organization. Learn more today and virtuous.org or follow the link in our show notes.
• 16:35
  Becky Endicott: Hey, friends, are you ready to take your digital engagement to the next level, but kind of feel stuck about where to start? Let us introduce you to feather feather is an amazing tech startup focused on making nonprofit outreach more impactful by connecting you to your audience wherever they are online, from fundraising to program awareness, they've got you covered. And rather than telling you we just wanted to show you for years, the Humane Society of North Central Florida has participated in a local online giving day called the amazing give. It's a competitive landscape for donations. So in 2021, the Humane Society knew they needed to stand out in order to maximize donations for$300 in ad spend their retargeting ads brought 119 visitors to their amazing gift donation page and generated nearly $6,000 in donations in just one day. With feather a small amount of ad spend can go a long way, learn more about their solutions for nonprofits@feather.co. That's feather without the last e.co.
• 17:30
  Becky Endicott: Now let's get back to this amazing conversation. I mean, our panelists are just fire today. And I want to give everybody a free long hug as I'm like about to talk to Sarah, if you are someone who's who's used the phrase, cultural fit, if you're someone who is thinking about these things that our panelists are talking about, and you're feeling guilt, don't this is a new era, this is a new moment that we're leaning into right now. And the place to start is now the fact that you're here tells us that you care about these things that you want to be building in community and with empathy. And I just have to say I think it feels better when we do this. And so and two things I want to lift that I'm starting to hear percolating, that I want to make sure nobody misses is this concept of bravery. And kind of getting out of our own scarcity mindsets, which we all struggle with and nonprofit, we are looking for brave not only leaders, but staff to lift these problems. I think creativity Isla and innovation is brilliant. And that's something that again, is going to help us scale and it's going to bring us together. And so I'm gonna kick it over to Sarah. Hello, sweet Sarah, we really want to talk about the importance of community and culture. Because I think a common misconception is that people think that the culture is right here in our physical building. It's our little staff around us. And it's so much bigger than that. And the reason we want to ask you this question is because you have done an incredible, beautiful job with your grassroots organization free mom hugs to build global community around the world. And I would love for you to talk about what it means to have community as a part of your culture and how it's actually amplified your mission, amplified your values.
• 19:24
  Becky Endicott: And I would love for you and anyone else to jump in here on this topic.
• 19:29
  Sara Cunningham: Thank you for the invitation I have already gleaned so much. I mean, when Ted said what he did, I said, we can all go home now, right? I'm going to be watching this and rewatching it for a long time because I'm new to the arena of a national nonprofit, being staff founder board member and trying to balance all of that by staying true to the mission and within our scope. So all of this is a new arena for me. But I think in the way that I've been able to balance that is it allows me a space to ask the questions are why do we do it this way? How come? You know?
• 20:02
  Sara Cunningham: Can we really have too many care packages, you know, like you just look at it's as it as it's not a competition between nonprofits. It is really a new day where we can look at and learn from each other and serve the world around us together. So I do believe in community. I believe that people learn from other people and by getting outside of the bubbles. For example, I was in one bubble, but I have to be careful not to put myself in another bubble. I still need to play the Balanced, stay approachable, learn. It's all about communicating, embracing leadership, understanding your role. And trusting people who share the same vision, we have moms all over the world who have a heart just like mine. And we reflect each other. And nobody wants to recreate the wheel when it comes to pouring into the community, and what California needs might be different than Arkansas. So it's being flexible in that way, but staying true to the mission and that serving for free mom hugs, it's serving the community and their families. And with love and education, it's a win win.
• 21:15
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, say you live this out so beautifully. I know, we have felt wrapped in your hugs, just in our friendship with you. And so thank you for that. I think you're not giving yourself enough credit, because you're living this out loud. But I do feel like this conversation.
• 21:28
  Jonathan McCoy: Like I just feel this, like, it's a new day, you know, I love that we're able to have this conversation on the mainstage.
• 21:33
  Jonathan McCoy: We're stepping into this new unknown, but I want to go in because we realize a lot of us are still facing in our own organization, some maybe unhealthy organizational culture, and a kind of want to talk about how do we start to get out of that, like, what are the tough conversations to have?
• 21:47
  Jonathan McCoy: What is the next step? And I kick it to you, Ted, and then anyone can jump in here? Where do you start? What are the symptoms that you're seeing?
• 21:54
  Ted Vaughn: Wow, well, it's a huge topic. You know, I think I think one thing I wanted to say to piggyback on the earlier question and comments, you know, why is this topic so important?
• 22:02
  Ted Vaughn: Why, why is it just now getting kind of a national attention getting a a forefront? And I think, you know, the more work I've done, I think there are two primary reasons. One, I think that consumers and donors of today have been burned by brands that sold one thing and did another. So that betrayal has elevated values of trust, honesty, and authenticity, to new levels of importance. And I think any brand nonprofit or otherwise, that doesn't see that is going to is going to lose the game. And I think also in today's fast moving world, where speed and innovation are crucial competencies for survival, if you don't have a culture that allows people to take risks and fail forward, you're not going to keep up. So, you know, my analysis is is those are the primary drivers for this conversation being so important.
• 22:51
  Ted Vaughn: Where are you? Oh, yeah, I
• 22:55
  Aila Malik: add one though, to that, I double click on what you're saying. And just say that, like, if you if you believe that your mission is going to need one or two generations, or three or four generations of career, dedicated career professionals, then for me, the other big Y is about a culture of succession.
• 23:12
  Aila Malik: Succession isn't about a plan.
• 23:15
  Aila Malik: It's about a way of being informed behavior so that when the leaders and people change decks, the culture holds and invites that same normal behavior that arguably is for the success of your your mission and your impact to continue. And so for me the other big why's like, if you don't have strong culture that is tied to your impact and tied to your metrics and your outcomes, then you're at risk for having over dependence on a leader savior or a couple of leaders that then really put your mission at risk.
• 23:46
  Aila Malik: So I think I just add that like it's imperative to the outcome that in the in the problem that you're trying to end,
• 23:54
  Lawanna Kimbro: I'd like to jump in to sort of ground it from the esoteric to the actionable. And I just want to we could be double clicking all day, because I could sign everything that's been said before. But I also want to, as we are hopeful about how we can change culture, I want to also flag some things we should pay attention to, and have caution around. Oftentimes, when we think about like equity and inclusion, we make that sometimes the burden of the most marginalized, and we want to take care not to do that anymore. Right? Not just because it is undue emotional labor, and oftentimes uncompensated labor labor. It is also countered the notion that we all should be carrying the water, right. And so when we have the loan, the loan lawanna had to think through racial equity, we're sending a message both internally and externally, that is only her issue to solve, and that the rest of us are not invested. Right. And so we want to take caution because a lot of times what sprouts up are really thoughtful things like councils and positions dedicated, but we want to make sure we don't make something ancillary or optional, when you should be integral.
• 25:06
  Ted Vaughn: And I would argue the best way you do that is by integrating development and culture into systems of supervision and management. In my opinion, supervision and management are the frontlines of leadership development, which is where you shaped culture intentionally Starbucks cards, shared leadership, book reading, occasional retreats and scavenger hunts. Those are fantastic. But if the systems are super revision and management don't embrace and prioritize leadership development, prioritize culture prioritize what it means to have vulnerability and appropriate transparency to build trust for the sake of the mission.
• 25:48
  Ted Vaughn: Everything else is fluff, right?
• 25:48
  Ted Vaughn: So, you know, our, our model, when we coach organizations on how to be more intentional about brand and culture fusion, often begins and ends with supervision, because if you can get those systems and structures, right, you can move the needle in amazing ways, and never do a scavenger hunt or a trust fall or a retreat. Those are helpful. But if you blow it in supervision and management, I think you're missing a huge opportunity.
• 26:13
  Aila Malik: Okay, I know double click is an overused phrase. But but we're gonna click triple click super click on everything y'all are saying, Look, can I bet I'm gonna riff on further.
• 26:24
  Aila Malik: So like for me when I go. So I, you know, Becky and John mentioned it, my job is to actually I was a leader in the sector in the juvenile justice space for 14 years. And then now I'm a professional CEO that goes in does a turnaround artistry, helps on strategic vision and exits, you know, average length of stay is a year, year and a half. So I've gotten to see a lot of cultures and a lot of executive teams and a lot of supervisors 150, over seven years. And what I'll say is, what I see as a through line is organizations, particularly leaders, that have an unexplored relationship to conflict, I'm gonna put an asterix on that and unexplored relationship to conflict struggle with a lot of what we've all talked about, Sarah, what you talked about in terms of community adaptations, and leaning into community or what lawanna talks about in terms of inclusivity and equity?
• 27:19
  Aila Malik: Or whose job is it a lot of that stem? And then what you're talking about Ted around supervision, and you know, how clear and direct are we? What is our intention in a one on one supervision conversation, a lot of that is around what is our capacity to hold space for uncomfortable conversation. That is, that is for you, that may be uncomfortable for you. And so what I see a lot is and this I'm not judging, because I come from my I have had to spend years on this for myself to understand that conflict can be a vehicle to deepen relationship and deepen understanding. And conflict can be as simple as making a decision to having a full on brawl, right? Like conflict is about a point in which you're saying if under if people pleaser like me, by childhood, that a conflict for me is saying no. And that's inherent in every decision. And so being aware of, well, what is my default conflict style? How do I reposition myself with intention to have an innovative collaborative conversation? How do I hold true to the mission and my role to get through and use the conflict to deepen our understanding our team performance or clarity on giving feedback, understanding and expressing that my intention of sharing areas of concern is actually because I believe in our ability to deepen the work and the team? Great. So I really think and just a tangible piece there. TKI what does it stand for you guys the same Myer Briggs, Thomas Killman, TKI. If you Google that they have a conflict modes assessment, I'm going to be the assessment girl today. Conflict modes assessment, it's 30 bucks, I would do it with your teams. And it basically these are all flat.
• 29:02
  Aila Malik: I don't believe in like assessments, being all defining I believe in it provoking conversation and thought for new frameworks of stepping into your leadership and power with intention. And so, you know, try a conflict mode, see what your natural default is? What will it take you to move into another way of being in a conflict with someone or in a conflict with yourself on decision and if people can, can can normalize that it's okay to have hard conversations and just hold space, and not rescue each other from a workload, not rescue each other from emotional despair, but just hold space for honesty, then we can do a lot with supervision, we can do a lot with norming departures and onboarding people and creating cultures that are healthy, but unhealthy cultures. Usually, there's a very strong influencer, who has a challenge with their relationship to conflict.
• 29:57
  Becky Endicott: Okay, that entire thread was fire. And I would encourage anyone to go back, rewind 10 minutes if you're watching this after this has been pre recorded. And think about that, because raise your hand if you were today, years old, when you thought of conflict as a positive thing. I mean, when your growth mindset enough, you can look at conflict as something that you can build forward from to peds. Ted's point earlier, we're failing forward in this, this is heart work. This is not just, you know, conversations that we're having that are leading to the financial goal in our organizations. We want healthy cultures where we care about each other, where our donors feel cared for where our staff feel cared for where our community feels cared for, I love this comment that les put in to the chat that says conflict can and must be a pathway to intimacy that is so profound I need that put on a shirt or a coffee mug, something for us. But I think you know, I love one of the things that I just love about you in the first time we ever visited with you on the podcast. And you talk about one of the first things you do when you go into an organization as an IDI is you go in and you don't do anything, but listen to the staff. And that level of empowerment, this shift in the power dynamics there sends a positive culture wave. And I think that is a great pro tip.
• 31:18
  Becky Endicott: And if you're someone who struggles with conflict management, I will give you a pro tip of before you go into that conversation, especially if you're trepidatious. You know, think about your values, go back to your values, why does this conversation have to meld with those values and uplift them.
• 31:36
  Becky Endicott: And if we're all on board and connected to those values, it makes the conversation easier.
• 31:39
  Becky Endicott: So I want to transition a little bit into what I think is a little bit of the 300 pound gorilla in the room as we talk about culture, and its mental health. And I want to talk about the mental health of our staff and our teams and the mental health of our cultures. And before I do I want to like his anyone listen to dare to lead the dare to lead podcast with Brene. Brown, she just had an incredible conversation with Dr.
• 32:03
  Becky Endicott: Donald and Charlie soul about this incredible report that's coming out, I think next month that they did a year's worth of analysis on toxic cultures. And the thing that stuck with me out of this incredible hour conversation I would encourage you to go check it out is they said that your executive director has the a more direct impact on your health, your physical health and your mental health than your physician. And they're doing a deep dive into toxic cultures and what makes something toxic. And so as we're sort of getting aspirational about having healthy cultures, I really want to pitch this to Sarah and to the group is how can we go in, you know, and proactively address organizational culture as it relates to the mental health.
• 32:54
  Becky Endicott: Knowing that whatever we say do perpetuate is going to have a lasting effect on someone's connection to our mission.
• 33:03
  Sara Cunningham: I would like to say that I learned the hard way, the difference between healthy confrontation and unhealthy toxicity. In the beginning, it was myself and our now program director taking the calls at 4am Answering 50 emails an hour working that and just going past, you know, the boundaries of time and and family space and just energy and bandwidth to where when we finally got our executive director who's done amazing work in a very short amount of time. And she listened she came in and she just listened. She served on our board previously. So she knew she understood the assignment.
• 33:40
  Sara Cunningham: And we were looking for an executive director, she she stood up and said, I think I can do this, I want I want to do this position, I want to go this position. But she helped us set boundaries, she helped us understand the scope of what we do to clarify to build that culture. And I looked up the definition for culture before we got on this call, and it says in a biology sense to maintain conditions suitable for growth.
• 34:07
  Sara Cunningham: And I love that analogy because that's what we have here. Now we have boundaries to help us have the bandwidth to serve the community that we love, and their families. But confrontation is something that I grew up you never question authority. And you never talked about money that really challenged me to understand my worth, as a founder as a volunteer, as a board member.
• 34:29
  Sara Cunningham: And then I do believe in confrontation and a healthy dialogue and to be able to move past that to use it to further the mission. And that goes on beyond this face.
• 34:44
  Lawanna Kimbro: I could not agree more. And I want to piggyback and I want to sort of pick piggy back at someone who was trained as a mental health counselor, but also just someone who played organizations and inside ecosystems where we are pushing for those who are closest to the issues to also be the ones in charge of the solution. And there is a little bit of a double bind near there is the sort of romanticizing the struggle, there is a sort of appraising of resilience that can backfire in ways that we don't attend to burnout. And we don't care for those who are most likely to be impacted by these audacious missions that we have. And so is the COBOL this sort of fully see people who are inside of our organizations, people who we are working with and community and the cost of this and it's not new True. So event get, and I want to be, we're all family here. So I'm going to be even more intimate, and give an example. There are lots of tropes that circulate like strong black woman, right.
• 35:43
  Lawanna Kimbro: And I want us to attend to this recently, we all saw the confirmation of justice, brown Jackson, and we collectively, as a country, hopefully we're very excited and very proud. And people praised her resilience under fire. That's one beautiful thing to think about. But it was also a Rorschach test, if you will, because other people saw that as a type of trauma and impact that many of our employees and many of our friends and loved ones experience almost silently. And so when we think about, you know, holistic well being including our mental health, burnout in the like, we also, you know, want to attend to who gets to fully show up, and who bears the burden of particularly toxic organizations. And one of the litmus test is, whoever gets experienced the full range of emotions, has the most power, whoever has a subordinate their feelings in service, but the culture has the least right. So if there is someone in your ecosystem in your organization who has to manage to other people's comfort, they are disempowered in this
• 36:59
  Aila Malik: resilience. There's a this notion of a lot of us who if conflict is uncomfortable, and or, you know, struggles or holding space for discomfort is something that is uncomfortable to you, then oftentimes, the idea of romanticizing resilience has been a way that we rescue ourselves at a macro level from that conversation, because it's Well, yes, I've struggled but I've actually I'm I am, who I am because of those struggles and those resilience. And what we do is we sweep away the conversations on struggle and discomfort that got us to that moment. And so I'm not villainizing the word resilience, but I do want to lift up what lawanna saying is that the oftentimes people who have been in, in very difficult situations, or all of us who have been in struggle, have written off the scene and the discomfort and the space that is needed for that healing, by saying, well, it's built her resilience. I'm guilty of that, for my own self and my own healing. I'm sure a lot of us are and so how do you combat that? I think it's exactly what lawanna is saying is, you get comfortable saying, okay, part of this work is that for us to have healthy cultures for us to deliver on a mission of inequity, injustice, and injustice, which is not for the light hearted or the faint hearted. We're going to we're going to have to come up with systems and ways to see and heal ourselves and each other as part of the work that does not mean rescue, it does not mean comfort zone. It does not mean silence, it does not mean under the carpet. It also does not mean weaponizing right. There's there's other the other line, it doesn't mean excuses, weaponizing playing, you know, motivational paycheck, exchange and bartering, that doesn't mean any of that either. So here's what we're going to do, we're going to really practice having direct conversations and holding ourselves to moments of discomfort without rescuing each other. If someone's crying in my office, I might even say, You know what, I really want to honor that this is hard for you.
• 39:03
  Aila Malik: And I, I don't the tissues are here, but I'm not trying to wipe your tears. Like I want to honor that if you if you're in the space of this, right? Like how do we create disclaimers and containers to make ourselves feel a little bit comfortable to hold uncomfortable space. And the last thing I'll say is, for me, in my practice, what really helped was having having vulnerability in that. So I used to say a lot to my supervisees, or wherever I was saying, You know what, I'm really trying to work on my own relationship to discomfort and conflict. So understand that my right now is just to hold space without trying to fix it without trying to rescue that. So just just know that I'm uncomfortable in that. But I want to see you and I really want you to continue with where you're at. But I give myself a little bit of grace, so that I can carry through with the intention of just holding space or with the intention of saying let's let's be in in disagreement about this for another week or two or three weeks, because I don't know, we don't know the answer to this, right. And so I just invite you to think about what makes you uncomfortable. Is there something you can name about that discomfort that gets you into this conversation? Because if not, if you don't have intention or alertness around then around that, we end up saying things in well intentioned ways on resilience around we end up saying things on it's okay, great, you know, head down. Yeah, the job is hard. It's hard for all of us, like we end up saying things that minimize the very things that we need to build positive culture and If that's that's resonating,
• 40:35
  Ted Vaughn: just two quick comments on that, I think there's a key idea that keeps surfacing. And that is this notion that the more senior you are in the organization you lead, the more culture shaping you do more than your specific skill competency ability, you might be an amazing attorney in a law firm. But if you're a senior partner or a senior leader, the culture shaping you do is contributing more to that firm than your ability to litigate or be a great lawyer.
• 41:01
  Ted Vaughn: And I think often we miss that, because we're all emerging out of a command and control style of leadership, which was really prevalent in the 70s and 80s.
• 41:08
  Ted Vaughn: And 90s, we've begun to soften it. But we haven't emerged out of that model well into a new model that makes room for vulnerability for giving people agency no matter where they are on the totem pole. And I think these conversations are helping develop a new model that will be as effective as command and control without abusing people's mental health without and I think it in many ways, that's what this culture conversation is trying to do. There will still be places where command and control for the most part are necessary the military, but 90% of organizations in the world are emerging out of that, and it's something new, and it's largely undefined.
• 41:51
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, well, one, I know you want to jump in here, we're winding out with the last two minutes. And I love for y'all to get a last word in here. We call it the one good thing to kind of round this out.
• 41:58
  Jonathan McCoy: But if you came for the culture, like me, I'm like applying this to my entire life right now. So what you all have been sharing has been so deeply good, and your hearts are so pure for this, but lo and I'm going to give you the chance. And we can round robin, one good thing to wind this out.
• 42:12
  Lawanna Kimbro: This panel was energizing to me if I can just be quite honest. But I also believe in our ability to do this, right. So so it's important to talk about the investment in work and building appropriate culture. But I don't want it to feel like this albatross or this difficult thing that cannot be endeavored that we would have to have a perfect structure to endeavor to do we don't want the perfect be the enemy of the good. And also we don't want past inertia to dictate what we believe is possible. Something being unprecedented doesn't mean it's impossible. And so I hope with that ethos of what can can occur when we bravely and audaciously march toward this type of future. And I will be the harbinger of what's at stake. If we do not, we are not going to solve poverty, food deserts, you know, anti trafficking initiatives. If we are not willing to audaciously tackle these issues inside of our organizations, we cannot expect other people to do what we are too afraid to try.
• 43:15
  Aila Malik: I'll try to riff off of lawanna is wisdom. Um, my one good thing is, is if she's talking about, hey, let's let's look at what the organization and the culture and how we're how we're connecting to be able to have greater impact, I'll just riff and say, let's go. My goal. One good thing will be your individual my call to action would be What are you can you make a list of the same intention you got, we all put at work? What is our own personal list and what my call to action would be is get very clear with yourself, have your own personal vision on this world so that your work is simply in alignment to that it's not the thing. And once you have some separation from that it's easier to play with culture here, it's easier to make mistakes, it's easier to be like ADD and get that one, right. My personal vision is so hot. There's a lot of work that needs to happen in the world.
• 44:02
  Aila Malik: This is one strong alignment, but it's not me. We're just we're we're disconnected from each other so that we can play and develop my personal stuff.
• 44:12
  Aila Malik: And I can play and develop my organizational culture stuff. So be human, do the work and get to know yourself really well. So that you can do all the things around yourself your culture and community impact. And I'll pass the baton on. It's like Ted's ready.
• 44:27
  Ted Vaughn: I'm going to speak to the senior leader because that's where I spend most of my life who might be asking themselves, yeah, this is all great. But I mean, this is more work more time, more energy, I can barely keep the lights on where we're lean. We're mean, I'm going to make the argument that if you get culture, not right, because you never get it, right. Culture is a tension to manage. It's not a problem to solve. By the way, there's too much of that right? Wrong, Good, bad, healthy, unhealthy. You're always managing your culture.
• 44:52
  Ted Vaughn: It's something you have to be intentional about. But if you do, you will mitigate sideways energy and drama. Because you'll have a culture that doesn't triangulate and then actually handles conflict better, which will allow your people to perform at a higher level, take risks and innovate and stop you from losing your ass in a fast changing pace. So culture is everything about bottom line.
• 45:18
  Ted Vaughn: This isn't just fluff or nice ways of being more tolerant or all the other fancy words. This speaks to bottom line profitability, efficiency, effectiveness, donor engagement, fill in the blank.
• 45:31
  Sara Cunningham: I would leave with what I've learned is When you try to make something happen, it's hard. And it's upsetting. And it's just really difficult. But when you consider the fruit of your work, not that everything's a party and easygoing, but you do what you're accountable to. And when you can pour into that, with your colleagues, with your volunteers with whoever is with you, with whatever you've got, and it's fruitful, it's lasting, and and empowering, then keep your focus on those things. And you'll figure it out with the people you're with and what you've got. But that is our burden. That is our joy. And it's the essence of humanity. Do that
• 46:14
  Becky Endicott: Sarah ended with joy. And I want to put a pin in that. Because as intense as this conversation was, I feel so much hope in it. And in what is this new era that we are embarking upon? So we are winding down this conversation. I want to thank our incredible panelists, please go find them on LinkedIn, we will leave their their information is embedded, please go to our website, because we want this conversation to keep happening. We are for good.com backslash RNs. We've got resources tips to keep going.
• 46:45
  Becky Endicott: Thank you to our audience for what you have done to come into this. Appreciate you all we're going to take a five minute break. So go check out the expert bar, go back to the Summit Live, take a little break and we're going to be back here go find another session given a little plug because we're going to take on boards next. Thank you guys and Godspeed.
• 47:06
  Jonathan McCoy: Thanks for joining us. Today's episode was brought to you by our good friends at auth zero without zero your nonprofit can do more with a login box. Greet prospects and rabid fans of your mission with authenticity simply make it easier for your team to manage data. There's so much at odds zero login experience can do. Is it odd zero.org For more info.
• 47:25
  Becky Endicott: If you enjoyed this episode, we know you'll love being part of the we're for good community. It's like our own social network where you can find like minded friends, ask questions, share resources and find inspiration anytime. Sign up today at we are for good.com backslash hello
• 47:41
  Jonathan McCoy: thanks friends