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Escaping the Machine: Gurdjieff, the Fourth Way, and Conscious Evolution with Richard Ruach · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 4: Welcome back to the occult rejects Today. You're stepping into
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: one of the strains and deeply influential world of one
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: of the most mysterious esoteric teachers of the twentieth century.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: Gurjev is one of those figures whose influenced stretches far
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: beyond the circles most people realize. His ideas touch occultism, psychology, mysticism, spirituality,
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: ritual practice, consciousness studies, modern self development movements, and even
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: art and music. He taught that most human beings lived
• 0:53
  Speaker 4: in a kind of waking sleep, mechanical, fragmented, distracted, reacting
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: automatically to life without the awareness, and according to him,
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: real spiritual development was not about blind belief, escaping the
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: world or empty ritual, but about shock, attention, self observation, struggle,
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: and the difficult process of becoming truly conscious and joining us.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: Today is Richard Ruock to help unpack the man, the myth,
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: the teachings, and the legacy surrounding gurje and the Fourth
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: Way tradition. We're going to try to unpack as much
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: as we can when it comes to his thoughts, his teachings,
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: and his influence. Was gurgje effimistic, a philosopher, a manipulator,
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: an initiate, a spiritual scientist or something far stranger? Why
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: does his teachings influence everyone from occultists and seekers to psychologists, writers, musicians,
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: and modern conscious movements? And what exactly did he mean
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: when he claimed humanity was asleep? All right, that's enough
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: unt of me, and let's introduce everybody else the loan.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: Please let everybody know what is up with you and
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: where we can find all your amazing stuffs.
• 1:59
  Speaker 5: I'm glad to be back care and you could find
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: me on YouTube x and on spreaker as the loom.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: Awesome.
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us and
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Jinda Ninja what is going on?
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Man?
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: Thank you very much for making it tonight. I'm surprised.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: I didn't think you could.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't think I could either, But thank you so
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: much for inviting me. Boss, appreciate it. Cardinal electric Head. Okay,
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: mister ninety three, so uh you can follow me at
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Threshold Saints dot subseac dot com or on my ex
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Twitter at wukong We Born to be UK and G
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: were born or at Threshold Saints on both I G
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: and Twitter. Yeah, just check that out. Thank you guys,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: so much, appreciate it. Cool, excited to be here.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: Well, you gotta plug the Gray Lodge here. That's a
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: super whole show too.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course that's a Gray Lodge. Is our
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: bi monthly show? Sorry about that?
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: Bye weekly?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Follow us on YouTube?
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Is it bi weekly?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Bye monthly, Bye monthly, Bye monthly? Twice every other Friday night?
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: Oh that's bye weekly and so we do.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Bye monthly.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Bi monthly would be every other month.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Friday's two Fridays for two Fridays a month.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: All right, just screwing it up, but it's okay.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Oh maybe I am.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: It would be every other month then, well regardless of
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: see now I'm fucking up the intro anyway. So you
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: know I dragged that autumn well.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: True Gray Lunch at YouTube dot com slash at the
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: True Gray Lunch t r V Gray Lunch. Thank you
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: guys so much appreciate it, and all my thresholders will
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: be on there too, So thank you guys. I appreciate it.
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: I actually got to get your scheduled down so I
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: can have good guests on the weeks that you're not
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: doing it so I can make sure you're here. I
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: was realizing that. I was like, fuck man, I was like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: this gray lunch shit fucks me up from getting gin
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: on here. I was like, but then when you cut
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: it down, I was like, oh, I got a chance,
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: so works out for me. Thank you nice, Kaivo? What
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: is going on?
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: Kaiva?
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for making it. I know Brandon couldn't,
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: but that doesn't mean you can't hang out, So thank
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: you for coming.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be back.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: It's been a while. Everybody can find me on Instagram
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: and YouTube as well as Facebook. I do daily and
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: weekly astrology videos. Thank you.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you very much. And we got to get
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: you back on again to kind of show off your expertise,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: so we'll make that happen very bad. Yes, yes, thank you,
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: And we got the man himself, Robbie Marx. What is
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: going on? Stori's back? It's good to see it.
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's good to be back. I just got back
• 4:26
  Speaker 6: into town and I saw this was going on, and
• 4:29
  Speaker 6: I was happy to jump on. And it's good to
• 4:31
  Speaker 6: see everybody, old faces and new if you don't know
• 4:35
  Speaker 6: who I am, I'm.
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: R Marx or Robbie Marx, artist illustrator.
• 4:38
  Speaker 6: And if you want to check out my various artworks
• 4:42
  Speaker 6: my social media and then also have the Metamindcast podcast
• 4:47
  Speaker 6: which is going on two years running. Now you can
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: go to my link tree which is link tree R
• 4:52
  Speaker 6: m ar X and that will pull up the whole
• 4:55
  Speaker 6: plethora of everything. And yeah, thanks for having me on.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Nick, of course, thank you very much. I appreciate you
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: baking it. And Ethan Indigo, what is going on, sir?
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: How are you? Oh?
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: My bust. Great to be here.
• 5:10
  Speaker 7: I'm excited for this. Great to see everybody. Ethan Indigo
• 5:13
  Speaker 7: Smith on all the social media. Recent article on a
• 5:17
  Speaker 7: cult research institute dot org. I hope that I got
• 5:22
  Speaker 7: that right if I love that. And yeah, I appreciate
• 5:26
  Speaker 7: everyone being here and easy to find and please feel
• 5:29
  Speaker 7: free to reach out.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Hell, yeah, thank you very much for coming on, man,
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. And he's got a ton of
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: books to go check out. So if you're interested to
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: go look up Ethan Indigo on Amazon you'll see a
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: whole bunch of books. You know, he doesn't like to
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: promote himself but I think you should, so I did
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: it for him and we got Jewels, my man, Jewles,
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: What is going on, sir? He's got the your cult
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: reject shot on too. He's fucking representing. Look at that shit, holla.
• 5:52
  Speaker 8: And always going on guys, making sure my audio is good.
• 5:57
  Speaker 8: What's going on? I'm Jewles, host of the Great Pill Podcasts.
• 6:01
  Speaker 8: Haven't been on The Occult Rejects in about I think
• 6:04
  Speaker 8: a little over a month now, so it's good to
• 6:06
  Speaker 8: be back, guys. It's good to see everybody. Nick, thank
• 6:09
  Speaker 8: you for inviting me. And Richard, it's good to see
• 6:11
  Speaker 8: you again, sir. I can't wait to learn from you
• 6:14
  Speaker 8: like I did last time. And yeah, if y'all want
• 6:19
  Speaker 8: to find me, you can go over to Patreon dot com, slash,
• 6:22
  Speaker 8: Great Pill Podcast, Gods of the Morning, would Tomorrow Morning,
• 6:25
  Speaker 8: prose Eda and something else, some other treaties and Accult Cinema. Yeah,
• 6:31
  Speaker 8: Great Pill pot on Twitter. But yeah, happy Frig's Day,
• 6:34
  Speaker 8: let's go all.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: Right, awesome, Thank you very much, Jules. Definitely go check
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: out his Occult cinema. It's banging. I was on it,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: so you know it was good and all heaters. Yeah,
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: he's got really good movies that I know he's going
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: to be using, so definitely check it out. And finally,
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: the man himself, Richard Rock, please let everybody know what
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: is your day and where they can find all your
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: amazing works.
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: Hello, Hello, gentlemen, ladies. It is I Dick Ruuk, otherwise
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: known as Richard Breath. You can find me on YouTube.
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: I stream every Sunday or Saturday if you're est so
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: tomorrow I stream. I'm currently with my little Esoteric book
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: Club going through Secret Teachings of All Ages by many
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: pe hole rather slowly because I give commentary and my
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: chat derails me consistently, but I mean, you know, the
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: derailing is part of the fun. So you can find
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: me there. You can find me on substack and find
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: me on Twitter or x as it has been re dubbed.
• 7:36
  Speaker 5: And I'm here today to talk about one of my
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: favorite guys, Gurjeef.
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: So what is it about this man that catches your attention?
• 7:48
  Speaker 5: He's sorry, that's squealed there for a second school girl. Yeah,
• 7:55
  Speaker 5: oh my god. So guys, he's this guy's oh my god,
• 7:59
  Speaker 5: oh my god, he's a ten. So why he's interesting?
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: Why he's interesting? Is he kind of ticks a lot
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: of boxes that you would think of when you think
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: of like a kind of like the archetypal mystery man
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: almost like you know, he has that esoteric quality to him.
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: He has obscure origins, like no one's quite sure when
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: his birthday is no one's and he's got like mysterious
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: racial epithets, like he's Greek Armenian, but he was born
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: in Russia, but where he's born is Nowaday modern Turkey.
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: It's like that part of Land Switched Hands, and it's
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: it's this overlaying of multiple different things when you hear him.
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: He knew multiple different languages, and he wasn't a trust
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: fund baby as well. He worked. He knew how to
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: make cash, which is also something that's rare. You know,
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: usually think when you think of spiritual the spiritual guru,
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: you think of the guy who's pour under a tree,
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: or like I don't know, someone like Crowley who's chronically broke.
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: And so with Gerjeff, he knew, he knew how to have,
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: he knew about cash, he knew how to flip a business,
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: but start a cup a business, flipper, do this, do that?
• 9:09
  Speaker 9: He was he was an interesting guy, you know, what's
• 9:11
  Speaker 9: interesting though, if you go back to the Renaissance, I
• 9:13
  Speaker 9: wouldn't say like they were rolling around in the dough,
• 9:17
  Speaker 9: but they knew people to become patrons, so I mean,
• 9:19
  Speaker 9: you know, they were still using somebody for money.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: So that is kind of interesting, you know when you
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: look at it.
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he had connections. He had some weird connections as well.
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: And it's hard because he's so obscure. A lot of people,
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: a lot of people, what's the term hagiography, they add
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: to his myth by being like I saw him in Tibet,
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: trust me, source, trust me, and like I want to believe.
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: But you know, the Gurdjeff and Tibet theory is a
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: bit weird. And there's somewhere it's like he knew him
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: and Stalin went to the same school because they were
• 9:50
  Speaker 5: in Georgia at the same time. Okay, okay, there's you
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: hear all sorts of things. But the guy, the guy
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: knew his stuff, and the guy could talk and to
• 10:01
  Speaker 5: give like a funny like tidbit, like there's one thing
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: I knew about. We know a lot about his students, Ospensky,
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: Maurice McColl, J. G. Bennett or RAJ what I didn't
• 10:12
  Speaker 5: know until recently was J. G. Bennett, one of his
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: students was actually a British Fed. He was literally a
• 10:18
  Speaker 5: spy for the Brits. And one of the things that
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: happened was is you know, this Gurgeif guy appeared and
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: he was told by his like officers, like, hey, check
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: this guy out, you know, see what's his deal. And
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: he got so entranced with Gurjieff and ensconced and like
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: enmeshed in the work that he just kind of left
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: the Feds and became a full time practitioner of the
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: work and basically became one of the work lineages as
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: the J. G. Bennett lineage. And I just think like
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: that is almost a testament to the man that he
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: had such a profound mysticism that he could convert the Feds.
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: That's that's how crazy it was. That's how crazy it was.
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: That's a listen.
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: It's like usually the Feds come in, they subvert, but
• 11:10
  Speaker 5: it's like the poison comes in and he transmutes it
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: into being his real student and becomes a teacher. That's
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: a testament. That's a testament.
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: So uh, I know, with him, his stuff is considered
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: what the fourth way.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so he never well or people people are.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Calling it that.
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: He called it the work, but it's basically called the
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: fourth way. Now, he used the fourth way as a
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: concept to talk about different schools because maybe we can
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: talk about this, like what is the fourth way? Yeah,
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: you hear the word fourth way, you hear the foot
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: word fourth way, and you're like, I don't even know
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: the first three ways man, And it's like, okay, So
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: he has this concept and he uses terms which are
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: a little outdated now. But if you just try and
• 11:58
  Speaker 5: get in the head of someone in like, you know,
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: than early nineteen hundreds, you can kind of see where
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: he's coming from. So just to give them the names,
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: he gives the the first way, then the way of
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: He calls the first way the way of the fakir,
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: the second way the way of the monk, and the
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: third way the way of the Yogi. But then he
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: defines them so the fakir. The fakier is a weird word,
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: like we don't really use it nowadays, but what a
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: fakir is is is if you think of it's a
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: bit outdated, but if you think of, you know, the
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: archetypal Indian kind of street magician who has a turban
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: and lays on a bed of nails. That is a
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: sort of an understanding of a fakir. But what the
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: fakir would the fakirism that he meant to kind of
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: talk about was, was someone who's able to use their
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: body in a particular way or uses the path of
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: the body. It's a path, and it's a it's a
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: spiritual path that does have certain actualizations, but it uses
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: the body not necessarily, Like you know, a guy who
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: goes to the gym uses the body, yeah, but he
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: uses the body for the sake of the body, whereas
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: a fakir would use the body to train something else,
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: train something higher. So think of so, you know, you
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: can go to the gym and you're like, you know,
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: it takes a lot of willpower to lift some weights.
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: But what if I told you to hold your hand
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: out like up above your head. How long could you
• 13:23
  Speaker 5: do that for? How would you be sweat? After five
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: minutes you'd be sweat? You know, ten minutes? Like, And
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: there's people who do like who are able to hold
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: their fakiers, who hold their hand up till for like
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: years and years and years. Some of them their arm
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: atrophies in that position, like think of the pain, think
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: of the willpower, think of the overcoming that would take.
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: And you hear, you know, stories of fakiers, you know,
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: sitting on top of ant hills or doing things like that.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: But it's the concept is is they're engaging their body
• 13:52
  Speaker 5: in a way to really work something higher, so that
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: higher thing is trained, and then that higher well, that
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: high thing is developed, the consciousness is developed, and then
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: the consciousness can interact with the body in a more
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: profound way, so they have more control over their body
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: than a normal person, Like you know, they can control
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: their blood pressure or their their body heating. Or there's
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: some extreme stories of like a fakir who has got
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: his students to bury him alive, and you just they
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: stuck a reed in his mouth and so he was
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: buried alive and the read was sticking out so he
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: could still breathe, but he was able to control his
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: body in such a way that he could consciously shut
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: everything down and go into a basically a hibernated state,
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: and they just like left him there for like several
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: several weeks. There's a bunch of different stories, like several
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: weeks and then they just then they pull them out
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: of the ground after a lotment time and slap, you know,
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: resuscitate him and start some processes up again, and he
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: comes back to life. It's like that is the way
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: of the fakir. And you can think, oh, dominion of body,
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: but it's you're gaining. You're working with the body to
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: train something high, to train the will, to train the consciousness.
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: That's the thing that you're trying to train. You're trying
• 15:04
  Speaker 5: to train these that thing in these ways. So the
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: way that fakures, the way of the body, the way
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: of the monk. The second way is the way of emotion.
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: And the best way I think to describe the monk,
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: the celibate monk is there's a book which I can
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: plug called The Cloud of Unknowing, and it's a very
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: famous book in the Western mystical Christian tradition. And that
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: book has anyone if you've just to go through that book,
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: if anyone's heard of it. Just for those who haven't
• 15:40
  Speaker 5: heard of it, that book is almost is one thousand
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: years old.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: By the way, it was written anonymously by a monk
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: to another monk, and it was never meant to be
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: published for the filthy, unwashed masses, but nonetheless we have
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: it and it's a good thing as well. So one
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: monk who had attained something was basically talking to another
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: monk who started contemplative exercises and was getting some sort
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: of effects. And it's basically what that book is is
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: a bunch of letters from one monk to another. And
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: it's fine, you know. You open the book and it
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: starts off with like, don't give these teachings to anyone else,
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: and it's like, oh damn, someone messed up. We don't
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: know the true origin or author of the book, but
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: in that book he basically gives the way of the monk,
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: the way of kind of prayer. The Cloud of Unknowing
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: is the book's title, and he, to give a very
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: brief outline, the whole concept is, is you stand on
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: the cloud of forgetting. You forget the world, and then
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: you look up, and when you look up to God,
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: you don't see God. You see there's another cloud blocking you.
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: And this is the cloud of unknowing. Your mind cannot
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: penetrate this cloud. It is the cloud of unknowing and
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: the only thing that can pierce it. And so in
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: the book. He says, you must pierce it with thrusts
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: of love, which is very interesting. It's very interesting the
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: terminology he uses. He doesn't say, you know, projects, projects love,
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: you know, compassion, love and kindness. He says thrusts of
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: love like a spear, like it's very physicality for something.
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: But the love, the emotion, is the thing that bridges
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: that is able to not the mind. The mind can't
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: pierce the cloud of unknowing, but the thrusts of love
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: can pierce it to a point, and then God reaches
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: down on the other side and you're able to connect.
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: And the emotion is the bridge. The emotion is the
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: thing that's trained that then connects to the divine. Think
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: of like a you know, the Michelangelo, the Sistine Chapel,
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: and there's the God reaching down to Adam. God is
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: reaching down to us. But Adam sitting there isn't just
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: being like a sissy boy like oh and not doing anything.
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: He's reaching up as well. So we need to reach up.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: That's the way of the monk, using the thrusts of love,
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: using the emotion, the emotional center, as Gergeff would say.
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: And so they primarily use the emotion but it's hard because,
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: like emotions are fickle. So you know, if you're in
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: life and you're like, I'm gonna do some thrusts of love,
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna do this, and then it's like,
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: I wonder what's on. I wonder the Boys' season finale
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: is coming up. You know you're gonna get distracted. So
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: one of the things that Gurja says about the Way
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: of the Monk is you can't really do it in life.
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: Hence you have to kind of go away. And the
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: same with the Fakire. Do you're really you know, have
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: that focus, you kind of need to go away. And
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: so this is the way one, two, and three. There's
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: this separation from physical life in them. And then the
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: third way is the way of the Yogi, which is
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: the way of the mind. But once again, just like
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: in the way of the Fakire, you can use your
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: body in a type of activity, but really via restriction
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: and non activity is where you get this real training from.
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: Same with the mind. The way of the mind, it
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: doesn't mean like you know, you calculate math good and
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: your mind goes super fast and you're superrational. The path
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: of the Yogi is actually restricting of the mind onto
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: a point. You're strict the mind, you're restrict the end
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: to a point, and this allows certain connections to hire things. YadA, YadA, YadA.
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: So you have these three ways, these three ways, and
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: it's the terms for them are a little bit outdated
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: because you know yogi, when you hear his definition of it,
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: it's like the way I see it as are Clearly
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: he's had some connection with Vedantic maybe Advita Vedanta schools
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: that are very philosophic, and so that's his concept. But
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: nowadays when you think of kind of yoga, you know,
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: there's half a yoga. There's Bakdi. Bakti yoga is basically
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: the second way, the way of the heart, and then
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: there's Raja yoga and more Nana yoga is kind of
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: what he's talking about, this mental kind of way, and
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: so you could say, so the fourth way is, of course,
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: then the synthesis. The concept is instead of striking man
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: on one side and developing him in one way, you
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: strike man on all sides at the same time. And
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: this way is in a way, it's slower and it
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: has less dramatic effects. If you go on one of
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: these other ways, you can get really dramatic, you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: kind of powers in a sense, like you know, the
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: fakir guy who can go into hibernation. That's very dramatic.
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: That's a But nonetheless, the stuff that you do on
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: the fourth way is to go to permanent. His concept
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: of the fourth way is what you it's hard, it's slow,
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: and there's little rewards. You don't get as much on
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: the fourth way, but the results you get are permanent,
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: permanent changes to your being. So you know some you
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: know because sometimes you hear like a monk stays a
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: monk and then he comes back into society and they
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: just eventually, eventually they're able to keep a level, but
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: eventually they lose themselves and they just become an old
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: person in society or something like.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so the fourth way is real transformation, and real
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: transformation is hard, and so that is yeah, so do
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: you consider that? What's that?
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: Would you consider that? Maybe like equating hernosis.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: Henosis, I mean that would be an aim, that would
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: be an aime, Henosis would be a name.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: But yeah, the well, wouldn't the life changing experience be
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: the aim that you're going forward to?
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the he would say something like you want to
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: change being. And here's the thing about like experiences. It's
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: like the experiences are the experience, but they usually arise
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: because of changes, and so the experience is good, but
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: it's like you want the change fundamentally, whether it comes
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: with a visual experience or an experience, natual experience or not.
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: And so he has these kind of in gourjefs for
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: a system. He has different levels levels of man. So
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: there's Man one, two, and three, which aren't really above
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: each other, they're all kind of simps. And then there's
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: the fourth man, who is the balanced man, and the
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: fourth man has certain qualities to him. But then after
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: that is the fifth man, and then the sixth man
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: and the seventh man, and it's quite it's quite interesting.
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: We can kind of go into them. But the fourth
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: man is quite interesting to talk about because how do
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: you know when someone's a fourth man or not? How
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: do you know when someone's balanced? Because when you look
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: at the man one, two, and three and you think like,
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: what am I? One way you can easily nut that
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: out is how do you One way is how do
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: you solve your problems? Because Man number one will always
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: try to solve his problems physically, and that's great. You know,
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: if you need to make a vegetable garden out back,
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: you just go out and start digging. Whereas, like an
• 22:51
  Speaker 5: intellectual man will probably be like researching online, like what
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: goes with what, and what plants work here, and what's
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: the best soil acidity to have, and then like a month, lady,
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: he still hasn't done anything. Whereas the the man number
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: one kind of get stuff done with his physical body,
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: but if he needs to do taxes, it's a little
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: bit difficult. For man number one. He can't do that,
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: you know, with his with his body. If he has
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: relationship problems with a friend, he can talk it out,
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: but maybe he needs to use his fists, you know
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: that kind of thing. Whereas man number two is wow,
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to say is good with relationships, but
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: they try to solve their problems with their emotions. They
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: try to solve relationship problems with you know, with the taxes,
• 23:34
  Speaker 5: they'll probably like cry and emotionally manipulate someone into doing
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: the taxes for them, you know that kind of thing.
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: That's a that's a man number two, Man num three.
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: The intellectual will try to solve their problems with pure intellection,
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: which will work if you have a math problem. But
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: in a relationship, when you say honey, those are just
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: the facts, you're going to get slapped and it doesn't
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: work out. So this is this is just it. It's
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: if you see how you're tender, see a person's tendency
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: on how they solve their problems, that shows their leaning on,
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: like what center they lean on if it's there. This
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: is another concept goja users. He talks about the centers
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: of man, the motor center, the emotional center, and the
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: intellectual center. And which center you have your center of
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: gravity in is fundamentally what man you are. So there's
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: how you solve your problems. And then there's your likes.
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: Someone who's a man number one, a physical man. You'll
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: probably like certain not just to move your body, but
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: you'll also like to watch people move their body. So
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: it could be a man number one could be the
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: guy at the gym who's buff, but it could also
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: be the guy with like a huge beer belly, you know,
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: sitting in front of the TV watching the Olympics and
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: just kind of you know, watching a figure skater fall
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: and being like, what an idiot, like that guy's technically
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: a man number one. He loves watching the motion of bodies.
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: He likes watching you know, animals move, horse races. He
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: likes watching you know, the footy guys moving. It's that
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: kind of thing. You're entertained by the movement of bodies,
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: boxing and things like watching but watching boxing, things like that.
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: Men number two is entertained by sentimental stimulus. So you
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: could think of women who are addicted to romance novels,
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: they're men number two. That's that kind of thing. That's
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: their likes. People guys who are addicted, guys and gals
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: who are addicted to gossip. You know what they say.
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: It's like there are people who talk about people, events
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: and ideas. It's like people who just talk about other
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: people and like, what's the drama, what's the tea?
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Like that?
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's classic. That's classic emotional centered person, like someone
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: who's centered in the emotional cylinder. And then, of course
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: the third type of person is the intellectual person likes
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: it when ideas connect. So also someone who fit like
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: solves a lot of Sudoku puzzles, Like the sensation of
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: solving puzzles is fun, but also the person who always
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: comes in with like, have you heard the latest scientific discovery,
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: Like it's a new idea, Like oh, like, that's the
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: almost the reditor, the intellectual redditor is Man number three.
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: They're like, have you heard the sauce sauce? Like that's
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: Man number three. That's Man number three. And all of
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: these people are cool people, but they're imbalanced. They just
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: live through one center. They're Man number three and it's
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: not like Man number three, should you know, do the
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: Yogi path? They can't, and they may get stuff out
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: of it, but if you the fourth way is about
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: balancing these things. And a lot of people in life
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: who I would say have not good education, but they're
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: raised properly and have a somewhat good education, will usually
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: have a sort of a balance in maybe two centers.
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: Like they'll be the footy guy who also reads philosophy,
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: or you know, the the art chick who also is
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: good at math, or you know, does fencing or something
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: on the side. There's something like that. It's like good
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: people in who you see in life who have things
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: more together, you'll notice that they're more balanced in two
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: of their cylinders than just one. People who are usually
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: lopsided really kind of struggle because it's due with those problems.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: So a fourth man is someone who's perfectly well balanced
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: in a sense, I should say they're psychically balanced as well,
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: because when your centers are imbalanced, they don't communicate because
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: the centers aren't just where your personality is, it's literally
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: your motor cylinder. If you're not connected to your motor cylinder,
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: you ever do that thing or it doesn't happen anymore.
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: Remember in the nineties. Remember in the nineties where you
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: had keys for your car and you'd have to like
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: put the key in and unlock instead of just beep,
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: and you do that thing where you like leave your
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: keys in the ignition and you get out and you're
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: closing the door, but like your motor cylinder is just
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: going automatic, but you're in lectual cylinder is like, oh
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: my god, I'm locking, like he's in my car and
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: you used to do it, and you're like, I'm an idiot.
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: Remember when that used to It doesn't happen anymore. It
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: doesn't happen anymore. But that is like, why does that happen?
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: That happens because the intellectual and the motor cylinder are
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: just they're they're disequilibriated. They're disequilibriated. And so someone who's
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: the fourth man never does doesn't do that kind of
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: stuff because there's balance, there's it's not just there's balance,
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: there's reconnection. There's connection there. I got to stop saying
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: like balance it balance and equilibrium are good, but there's
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: actual connection. We've actually become disconnected, disconnected to our emotions,
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: disconnected to our bodies, disconnected to our minds in the
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: sense of like you know, kind of memories, and like
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: there's a line from Nietzsche where he says, in man,
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: there's always two people, pride and memory. Memory says I
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: have done this, and pride says, no, it cannot be.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: And it's like there's we're always fighting with ourselves in
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: our heads, and then like we're walking down the street
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: and we forget where we're going and our emotions. We're
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: not even connected to our emotions, so we don't even
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: know that we're how we're feeling, we're feeling stressed or not.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: To reconnect everything is to become kind of conscious of
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: those things. So a fourth man isn't just someone who
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: does a little bit of everything and it's like, because
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: you know, when people hear this concept for the first time,
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: it's like, yeah, I'm kind of a fourth man. It's like, no, no,
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: don't always assume when you enter a new system. It's
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: always good to assume you're just at the beginning. So
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: it's just like when you look at the attributes of
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: a fourth man, there is a certain consciousness. It's not
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: to say that they're awake like a master, but it's
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: more like someone who is at a certain level where
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: they're constantly having you know, flashes of awakening. They're reconnected,
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: and I would say I would go and make the
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: claim to say that they have no problems. That's one
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: attribute of the fourth man. A fourth man is someone
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: who has no problems. Not necessarily, you know, said they
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: have no problems, but whenever a problem arises, they can
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: fil why because a problem arises and if it's a
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: motive center problem, their motive center, they're connected, they just
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: fix it with the correct center. A relationship or problem arises,
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: they just fix it immediately. They're connected there. They realize
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: that there's something wrong and they they're able to use
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: the correct center to fix it. Same with the intellectual cylinder.
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: So a fourth man is someone who has their life
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: together and has no problems, and this, it to Gurdjieff,
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: is the type of person who's ready to start the work.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: That was that was interesting, Sorr if there's a plane going.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: By, Yeah, I thought that was. Actually that's funny. I
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: thought that was me.
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: In certain ways.
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: It's almost like Maslow's base needs, like you have to
• 30:49
  Speaker 6: have these certain elements in place to be able to
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: bring yourself to the point of being centered, to be
• 30:54
  Speaker 6: able to begin the work, or to have the process
• 30:57
  Speaker 6: to be able to learn in that security, that sense
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: of environment that allows and facilitates that process.
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly. Gojiff is very against kind of vagabonds
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: and tramps that you know, there's a kind of a
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: romanticism to have, like, oh, this guy's so bohemian and
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: he lives on the street, but he says sorts of
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: wise things. Gojif is very against that. He doesn't like
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: the you can't be an initiate and a loser. The
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: two things aren't connected. It's like you have to have
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: your life together.
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: One thing I did want to ask anywhere in there,
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: does a didn't Girdjaf have an idea of like like
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: something about machinery. Yes, does that fit into any of
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: that stuff anywhere.
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: Gerdjieff came up. If you think about the era, so
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: like nineteen seventeen is when he first starts kind of well,
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: it's around like he's in Russia before the Iron Curtain falls,
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: and then he comes into France. But like that early
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: nineteenth century.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: He was really around for and everything too.
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: Shit yeah, yeah, and like think about that. I think
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: he died in nineteen forty nine, and I think Crowley
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: died in nineteen sixty seven. Ye too, There are a
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: couple there are a couple of years off, but it's
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: like they didn't meet at one point, which is interesting.
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: We can talk about that, but there the whole thing
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: with the machine is Gerjev in his cosmology and doctrine.
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: He was around that period of time when when you
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: look at public education, public education didn't exist, and then
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: it did and we all went on the Prussian system.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: And if you look at the period the era that
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: Gerjev is teaching in, that's kind of like first and
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: second generation of where the masses went through a public education.
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: So this is where the mass of people have a
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: certain level or knowledge of science, and so science is
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: the new hit thing. So when he came to teach
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: how it would have been told in taught in ancient times.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: They would have said, man is an animal, and we
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: are part animal, part divine, and we need to become
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: less like an animal and more divine. So Gurjef basically
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: just flipped it and was well, he scienced it up.
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: He basically came and said man is a machine, and
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: people like, ooh machine. And then you know, he starts
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: using these metaphors instet of centers. Sometimes he would use
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: the term cylinder, the cylinders of the human machine, the
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: intellectual cylinder, the motor cylinder, the emotional cylinder, and he
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: uses these. He has this whole thing about hydrogens as well,
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: which isn't really hydrogen chemical hydrogen, But it's this funny
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: thing because what he's doing is the equivalent of we
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: have spiritual language. But you know, when when people get
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: a little bit too new AG and a little bit
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: too techno jargon fuses in it and they go, yeah, man, yeah, man,
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: you've got to connect to the universal mind. Man, it's
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: all like a simulation. You got to download use, unlock
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: the DNA and like download from the God computer and
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: they'll like mixed technological terms with spirituality. Gurjeff is basically
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: doing the equivalent of that in nineteen ten, nineteen twenty.
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: That's so when he's using the word machine, he's saying,
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: man is a machine, and we need to become less
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: like a machine. So like a cyclical clock, a clock
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: just goes around and around, same with man. We wake
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: up and it's the daily ritual. We wake up, we
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: do the exact same things we you know, always whenever
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: we leaving the house, we always grab the door handle
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: with the exact same hands, like that kind of thing.
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: We're predictable, And he says, you know it's predictable. What
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: is a computer input output? You can go outside onto
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: the street, walk up to someone and put in a
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: specific input, be like heyre and you'll get you'll you
• 34:48
  Speaker 5: know exactly the type of output you'll get. You'll get
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: a punch. That's the correct output for the input that
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: you put in. If you can predict something of that's
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: something that someone will do. They're a machine, they're mechanical.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: You need to be less like a machine.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: That's funny.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: It also reminds me of Agrippa's like the three souls,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: so like the vegetative, the sensitive, and the rational right,
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: so like, is that sort of influencing that or do
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: you know where he got his ideas from?
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: Yes, so there is definitely something to say about that,
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: because Gurjef is a little spicy on his sources. He's
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: a little he hides them and a lot of people
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: have I think at one point they were very much
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: like all of his sources, it's basically Tibetan Buddhism, or
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: it's basically he was taught in a secret Chinese monstery,
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: or it's basically Sufism. But when Gurjef talked, he said
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: something like, there's one point where he said something, he
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: admitted to something, and he said, the work it's three things, philosophy, theory,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: and practice. The philosophy comes from India, the theory comes
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: from Egypt, and the practice comes from Persia. And that's
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: interesting to say because he's kind of admitting that it's
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: a synthesis. But to get to like your point, there
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: are all of these little weird connections with like medieval
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: alchemy in the Western tradition that people have found over time.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: In his second book, Meetings or the Remarkable Men. It's
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: his kind of own story. And someone pointed out that
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: the the route that he takes and travels around in
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: meetings with the Remarkable Men is the exact same route
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: that Christian Rosenkrautz uses in the like in the Rosicrucian Manifestos,
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: when Christma Razkurrence goes to the east and he specifically
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: goes this route to Damascus and then goes down and
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: then goes into and then back into Europe. It's exactly
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: the same. It's like, ah, that's interesting, that's interesting. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: then even at one point, Gjef Gurjof's greatest student in
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: my opinion, in my opinion is a guy called Ospensky,
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: and Ospensky at one point says all of Gurjeof's cosmology
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: comes from Robert Flood, which is a claim where a
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: lot of Gourgiffians will yeah, exactly, well, a lot of Gogiffians,
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: a lot of Fourth Way people will be like, no,
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: that's not correct. O Spensky. The other of people have
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: problems with Ospensky, And I'm like, that may not be
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: entirely correct, but that's a very interesting thing to say.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: And when you look at there are some specific schools
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: that I've seen where it's like it's not exactly one
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: to one, but it's like so close. There's some kind
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: of Western esoteric lineage, and there are some things that
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: are not confirmed at the moment but are in the works.
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: Some people have like found some specific sources that where
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: Gurjef may have gotten from. And it does seem to
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: be that there is this European secret kind of undercurrent
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: that he was tapping into.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: If he really wasn't a flood, we couldn't then like
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: open up a door of like just so many different
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: influences that he might have been into.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: Exactly exactly exactly. He definitely had some connection, like he
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: clearly went to I think he went to India, and
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: he definitely had some weird connections with maybe some fakir
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: schools and that's how he got these concepts. But his
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: system seems to be some weird it's got some Pythagorean, neoplatonic, alchemical,
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: harmetic influences.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: Robert Flow was even big with like drawn eye bullshit
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: and brain stuff.
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Well that's a great point, Nick, because I was just
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: going to ask, there's this sort of a two point
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: question that I have for Richard is that so the
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: idea is is Gurjev had so many students that we
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: don't quite know in the contemporary time exactly what was
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: said by Gurjef and what was sort of transliterated. We'll
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: call it from the original source if there is one,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: or if it's a lot of metafiction or like you know,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: like auto fiction, like narratives about their guru, their sage.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that it is all fake. I'm just
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I'm positing that is a sort of problematization of his material.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: So that's question one, or like the problem one we'll say,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: and then maybe part two is that I mean a
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: lot of the things you said, Richard, I'm sure you
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: know this are very cabalistic. So if you're talking about Georgia,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Central Asia, I mean there is a point like when
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: David Heimsmith was on this show, he talks a lot
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: about how Sufism is a form of some kinds of
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Sufism are a form of Kabbala. They may not use
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: the tree, but they present the tree in a conceptual
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: sort of verbal way. And this is also my presupposition,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: as I've talked about for the last three years with Nick,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: is that there are other trees like the one that
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: I've covered on the show, which is the Mahavija that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: grouping ten goddesses from Nepal. So I just posit that
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: as just a tree. It's not that they're gods or goddesses,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: it doesn't. That's not what it's about. It's about sepharatic
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: experiences and then using a conceptual framework to map out
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: like what experiences you've had, like Nick has talked about
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: crossing the If you want to call it crossing the
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: abys experiences, that's totally fine. So I'm just what I'm
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: trying to say is maybe it doesn't matter where his
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: source material is if he's having sepharatic experiences based on
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: this traditional wisdom science, whatever it may be.
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: The I'll say the source thing is interesting. I completely
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: agree with you in the end. In the end, and
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: it doesn't really matter where he got it from at all.
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: What's interesting about the sources is they open new doors
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: to things that are incomplete. Because the way Gourje taught
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: one thing that he the one thing about the work
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: is interesting is the practice. Because usually when you talk
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: about schools, you know, when you say yoga, you can
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: imagine there's certain types of meditations, or there's chakra systems
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: that you would learn, or when you talk about chigong,
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: you know you're going to be working with breath and energy.
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: With the fourth way, with the way Gurjev taught was
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: very random, almost completely dependent on the person. He basically
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: worked subjectively with each person, like when he would give
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: a person a practice. There's I think there's one quote
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: where someone said something like Gurjeff told me that whenever
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: I give a practice, what I'm giving you as a
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: skeleton and it's left to you for you to fill
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: out the rest. And so it's like it's almost and
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: which it is very rose crucion as well, because there's
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: some kind of stories like that in other places, But
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: this is this kind of thing of like giving a
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: certain practice and then that other person fills it out.
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: But when you learn about his sources, you kind of
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: see the logic of what he was going for and
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: like what because it's like when you just see the
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: practice and it's like, ah, what does that even do?
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: But if you find the kind of the source, you
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: can kind of trace it back and you can understand
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: what it does and why he changed it in this
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: specific way, and it kind of just illuminates it in
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: a different way. So I find the sources don't really matter,
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: but they do add an interesting dynamism to God. So
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: I always like looking out and I like hearing people's
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: opinions and on where kind of Gurge've got his stuff.
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: Some people are very measured in their approach, and some
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: people go full skitzo, and that can be fun, but
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: often sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. But now, nevertheless, nevertheless,
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: the first question the students and the gurge of teaching.
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: So this is interesting because he had a lot of
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: students and they didn't necessarily get along. Now, but here's
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: the thing. I even saw someone in chat who was
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: like Ospensky contradicts Gurgis when I'm like, on, son, let
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: me explain something to you. There are two different go Jiefs.
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: There's early Gourjief and there's late Gourjev. And this is
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: the thing, like people, when people you know the anagram,
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: you've heard of, you you've heard of the anagram that
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: came from Gourjef. He's the first one who talked about that.
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: He brought the gourje He brought the anagram, he brought
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: the h this hydrogen table system, he brought this esoteric
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: cosmology system. It's all incomplete because he started teaching it
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: and then he just dropped it. And this is the
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: This is why people have a problem with Opensekey, because
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: Ospenskey got the early Gourjef teachings, whereas late Gourjef is
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: a completely different animal. Like early Gurjeff would say, you know,
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: stay away from breathing practices, don't use imagination. Late Gourjev
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: actually taught breathing and imagination practices, and like all these
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: like weird kind of there's all these interesting things to
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: say about him, but fundamentally, there's a book that Gurjaff wrote,
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: very famous book, bill z A. Bubb's Tales to his Grandson,
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: which if you want to teach the Fourth Way, you
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: have to read I would say, we were talking about this, Yeah, yeah,
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: I would. I would. I'm going to make the claim
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: that if someone someone says they're a Fourth Way teacher
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: and they haven't read that book, then not a fourth
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: White teacher, and you should just ignore everything they say.
• 44:18
  Speaker 8: Well, that's the that's the book by him that I've
• 44:21
  Speaker 8: ever even looked at so and a while ago, but
• 44:25
  Speaker 8: I didn't take a kind of deeper look at it.
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: More of it, you could say, and.
• 44:31
  Speaker 8: Esoteric look right. But back when I first read it,
• 44:34
  Speaker 8: I was really big into conspiracies and the whole. I
• 44:38
  Speaker 8: was not deep into this kind of kind of research
• 44:41
  Speaker 8: it all. So reading it again, you you get a
• 44:43
  Speaker 8: whole new You're like, you still don't understand it.
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: There's las Leyis and Leis.
• 44:49
  Speaker 8: We read it on Gods in the morning when Nick.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: You may have even been there, I think for part
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: of it, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, And we you know, we.
• 44:56
  Speaker 8: Were trying to interpret it, and I think we did
• 44:59
  Speaker 8: an all right job.
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: But there's stories of when Gerjef was writing that book,
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: he would write a chapter and then he'd go to
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: his advanced students and read the chapter out to them
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: and then if that they would then like given their
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: interpretation and if and he and he was like, if
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: they get it correct, then I need to go back
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: and write it. So it's more difficult, like it's he
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: he was like, you need to work for the work.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: There always needs to be a price paid. Nothing is
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: for free. And so one way around that is to
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: deliberately write something to make it hard to read. So
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: it's literally written in that way to troll you. So
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: you need what one attitude to have when reading that
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: book is to try to have a sense of humor.
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: When he just repeats things and just sit and like
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: says things in all caps, it's like he's trolling you.
• 45:47
  Speaker 5: Partially he's giving you like amazing information, but sometimes he's
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: trolling you and you just have to laugh and just
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: go with it. But that book, the very end of
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: that book, in the afterword, he says something which I
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: actually hadn't heard until I read that. Whereas in that
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: afterward it's Gurjef then speaking and he says, there came
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: up because Gurjef a historically he was a bit of
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: a wild man with cars, and he had some car crashes.
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: And basically after his really bad car crash, he looked
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: around at his students and he basically says, none of
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: them had reached a stage that was like a quality
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: good enough to carry on my lineage. Because in Ospensky's work,
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: the Ospensky Gurjef, the Gurjef that speaks in Ospenske's book says,
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: you know, you need to have a fourth way teacher.
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: This is a proper lineage thing, you know, you receive
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: something from the teacher and then the whereas in the
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: Bilsubub's Tales, at the end of Billsbub's Tales, he says, Yeah,
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: that wasn't gonna work. That wasn't gonna work. I realized
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: that wasn't gonna work. I dissolved the school and I'm
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: writing this book. And then you think about that for
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: a second. What's the book title called Bilsbub's Tales to
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: his grandson, not to his son, his grandson, who's Bill
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: the Bub? Bills a Bub is clearly gurgief. He's being
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: the devil. And in that book, you know, in the
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: book itself, bils Abub, you know, meets his son hasse
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: In on the spaceship Karnak, and he, you know, teaches
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: his son about where he's been in his adventures and
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: this these odd creatures on this planet Earth that he saw.
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: But it's like it's an objective look from an alien
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: looking at the Earthlings and saying how crazy they are.
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: But who's hassi In hasseen? Isn't his students, the grand child?
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: The grand kids are us. His students are his children,
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: and his children are failures, he says, So at the end,
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: I failed none of my none of the people I
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: taught people. I've met people who are like, oh you
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: READO Spence, I'm part of the J. J. Bennett lineae,
• 47:42
  Speaker 5: I'm the real Kurjiff lineage. I've met people like that.
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: And it's so funny reading out of Gurjo's mouth. At
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: the end of Bilzebubs, He's like, all of those guys Rage, Fritz, Peters,
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: Des Salzman, Bennett, They're all failures in my eyes. Wow.
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. So he like he's literally like, they're all failures.
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: I'm writing this book for you. So Gerjief is speaking
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: to us through that the true initiation. He made this
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: book as an initiatic device. So people years from now,
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: even if you've heard of the fourth Point and you've
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: only got fragments of it, or you're not close to
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: a school, you can read that book and you have
• 48:19
  Speaker 5: enough to kind of work with. That's why he kind
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: of wrote that book. So to answer your question, Jin,
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: we do have all of these students and all of
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: these people, and all of these people saying different stories.
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: But then we have Gojief, who himself was a trickster
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: and he's gonna lie to us, but it's almost like
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: he's playing five D chess and he's saying, like, you know,
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: I'm going to like not tell the truth, so you
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: can't take everything I say on face value, So good, good,
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: don't be aware that I'm going to lie at you.
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: So you're engaged, you're like conscious with every single word
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: I say. So and because you're in that kind of
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: state like is he is he being real?
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: Is he not?
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: It kind of absorbs differently. And when he does say
• 49:03
  Speaker 5: real shit, you lock in, you lock in. It's like, oh,
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: he's talking about higher being buddies. Now he's talking about
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: his sovereign endlessness, the god of existence. Let's go like
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: you know that kind of thing. You lock in when
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: it gets real.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Well blinds our mark of a great Kabbalist, Like if
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: you are able to do that, if you are able
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: to mix the ideas for different people on the path,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: because sometimes it's not just a lie, right, like sometimes
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: you explain it for a different audience, like you like,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: if I come on the show, I'm not gonna go
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: full Tontric Schitzo all the time unless that is like
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: the guest, right, or sometimes I'll go like, well, Nick
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: and I will do like cabala riffing or whatever it is.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: It's like it's you know, you you suit your message
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: to the audience or to like who you're speaking to.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: So that's you know, this is the one thing is
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: that in Tontraic Buddhism we often say like it's skillful,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: like it's upaiah. It's skillful means it's not necessarily a lie. Yeah,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: just different people are gonna have different things to understand.
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: And you know, one hundred Gourjeff was very fond of
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: using skillful means. The sly man sometimes he called the
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: fourth way the path of the sly Man. That was
• 50:15
  Speaker 5: the other term he used, sly s l y.
• 50:21
  Speaker 7: I wanted to mention, Richard, you answered my question, what
• 50:24
  Speaker 7: would have what would have been my question? But I
• 50:26
  Speaker 7: wanted to mention at least some of the things that
• 50:30
  Speaker 7: may have inspired his ideas or at least correspond with
• 50:33
  Speaker 7: the idea. Uh, there's the three jewels of Buddhism that
• 50:39
  Speaker 7: kind of transform into a fourth or combination synthesis of
• 50:44
  Speaker 7: higher kind of ascension. Uh and and and and he
• 50:48
  Speaker 7: Gergieff reminds me of so many Kung Fu and tai
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: Chi teachers that I've experienced that he's just completely uncanny
• 50:57
  Speaker 7: and kind of you you never know exactly what he
• 51:00
  Speaker 7: might mean. He also used the term as you eloquently described,
• 51:05
  Speaker 7: and he summarized it maybe in the three brained people
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: or three brained beings. And this reminds me of the
• 51:16
  Speaker 7: related to Cumfu and taichi. There's the three centers or
• 51:21
  Speaker 7: three Dantien's Maine danti Ens in Cumfu theory, which basically
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: exactly describes the fakir monk and yogi in the physical
• 51:32
  Speaker 7: root based Antienne and the emotional and mental and it
• 51:38
  Speaker 7: all kind of and there's also the jing Chi and
• 51:43
  Speaker 7: shen forces of chigung and tai Chi and cumfu that
• 51:48
  Speaker 7: are kind of similar to this idea as well. And
• 51:52
  Speaker 7: so there's also the triune brain which is kind of
• 51:58
  Speaker 7: a scientific read a look at it, which I believe
• 52:01
  Speaker 7: it kind of was theorized after uh Gurge, so I
• 52:06
  Speaker 7: wonder how much he might influenced that, But it also
• 52:09
  Speaker 7: all beckons to this idea of the trist magistus and
• 52:14
  Speaker 7: even being I hope not too abstract, there's the hiram
• 52:19
  Speaker 7: Abiff kind of initiation process where he essentially overcomes the ignorance,
• 52:30
  Speaker 7: fear and superstition model and becomes by by overcoming these
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: three forces, it becomes in effect a fourth manner, a
• 52:40
  Speaker 7: fourth fourth way being.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: And that's the fourth initiate.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Dude.
• 52:45
  Speaker 8: Yeah, like that has to do with that did did
• 52:51
  Speaker 8: did you read?
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 52:53
  Speaker 7: Totally, And I think those kind of illustrate the similarity
• 52:58
  Speaker 7: of that three to process, and even Young kind of
• 53:03
  Speaker 7: might have hinted on it, and something that he said
• 53:06
  Speaker 7: frequently there are three, but where's the fourth and pointing
• 53:10
  Speaker 7: out different different sets of three and four to his
• 53:14
  Speaker 7: remark there, So I don't know, I don't know if
• 53:16
  Speaker 7: there's those are point to where he got any of
• 53:20
  Speaker 7: his ideas, but just a similar process in theory anyway.
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he has very interesting, similar vibes to certain things.
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: In a way, his early work, like the Ospensky Gurjiff,
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: I would say, is almost lacking. The Ospensky Gourjef is
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: almost lacking in a certain way that it seems intentional.
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: And I've had this thought that like early Gourjeff intended
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: his work to be supplementary. So like you take this
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: and then you go and like join a Dowist school
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: and you can do fourth way and and it just
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: fits together because it fits together so well, or like
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: you go fourth way and then he goes zen School
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: and it just fits together really well. Or fourth way
• 54:08
  Speaker 5: and Raju and it fits together really well. But his
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: later work seems to be a self enclosed system in
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: and of itself. And yeah, there does seem to be.
• 54:17
  Speaker 5: It's always had when things seem to be, like you know,
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: the chakras and the danti Enns, and because with the
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: chakras there is also a kind of thing like Gurjev
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: has the cylind the centers of the human machine. He
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: has the first five. He says there's the motor, emotional,
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: and intellectual, but then he says there's an instinctual center
• 54:38
  Speaker 5: which is connected to the motor center. And then he
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: says there's a sexual center. So there's five. And it's funny.
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: When he taught this, he would have like different groups
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: of students, and in one group of students he would
• 54:49
  Speaker 5: just say the first three he'd say like intellects, motor, emotion,
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: and then in one he'd include the instinct and then
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: in another he'd include the sexual cylinder. And then he'd
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: like get them all to come together one day and
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: then they just exchange notes and they'd be mass confusion
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: because of like they'd be like some people would only
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: be working with three centers and some would have like
• 55:07
  Speaker 5: all five. And it's interesting, it's like almost like the
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: person who could sort out through the differences, sift out
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: through the differences was the person who could make it almost.
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: But there's also talk of higher cylinders, and he says
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: there's two higher centers, and so when you have five
• 55:24
  Speaker 5: plus two is seven. Then it's like, oh, is this
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: the chakras? Is he talking about the chalkras? But then
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: he talks about the three brains, which is kind of
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: like the three Dante ends. And I've wondered the exact
• 55:32
  Speaker 5: same things as you. But when fundamentally with those things,
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: they well, well, the Chokras it's a little controversial because
• 55:42
  Speaker 5: when they started off their just seats for the gods.
• 55:44
  Speaker 5: But fundamentally the dancing end system at least, and nowadays
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: how people see chakras are is an energetic system. And
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: in the early days good It's hard because good chief
• 55:59
  Speaker 5: in the early days seem to be about doing something
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: and he'd be against kind of contemplating and don't imagine,
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: don't use imagination practices and breathing practices, don't worry about
• 56:09
  Speaker 5: them yet. But there's weird kind of things, and it
• 56:13
  Speaker 5: seems to be he was focused on trying to get
• 56:17
  Speaker 5: the work with the consciousness in and of itself and
• 56:20
  Speaker 5: then elaborate this huge cosmology and just fire working with
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: the consciousness itself, it would have an energetic effect. And
• 56:31
  Speaker 5: there's a logic for that, which is a very hard
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: it's not hard to explain, but it's very elaborate, and
• 56:37
  Speaker 5: we'll just it's to do with the hydrogen system, basically
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: his concept of hydrogens. But fundamentally, if someone is in
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: his system, if someone's able to self remember what he
• 56:49
  Speaker 5: calls for a long enough period and consistently, just that
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: conscious work would transform the energies in and of itself
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: and it would just kind of work. Whereas later on
• 57:01
  Speaker 5: he seemed to add in contemplation exercises and a breathing
• 57:04
  Speaker 5: exercise and some visualized using a color spectrum exercise, and
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: he seemed to be kind of more actively working with
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: the energies. So this is just why I'm kind of
• 57:14
  Speaker 5: qualifying that because it's like early on it didn't seem
• 57:17
  Speaker 5: to be that he was moving energies through the body,
• 57:20
  Speaker 5: but he was using some kind of framework like that,
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: so it was kind of there, but it was distinct.
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: But anyway, anyway, I'm just rambling now.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I've got a quick I got a quick follow
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: for you, Richard Oyeah really fast. Okay, So in Tantra,
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: the secret layer is that we use five chakras, so
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: maybe he was on something there that is the that
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: is the both the oldest layer of like what people
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: know as chakras is five. It's also the esoteric element.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Today there's five. So we'll just say that and then
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: the three Dantean's Like, yes, you can definitely make that argument,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: but I also you can. You can you can say
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: the three body problem like that's how we would I
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: think Kaiva probably could go into this too. But the
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: three body problem in Buddhism, like there are there's like
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: a higher ontological body, cosmological body, and obviously a material body,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: so you can resolve that through consciousness. And I often
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: and I wonder, like the thing you're saying about how
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: he began with doing consciousness exercises, like that was his
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: primary thing. That sounds exactly to me. To me, like
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: someone who's just come off a sepharotic journey, because they're
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: going to focus with they're more able to access the
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: the centers, so they're not going to focus so much
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: on the energy the subtle body channels like the up
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: and down, the plus and the ultar. They're not going
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: to focus so much on that because they've already accomplished
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that journey once or several times or however many. They're
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: just going to focus on the energy centers and getting
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: them churning in the right direction. Working. It's sort of
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: like energetically engaging in perception of consciousness, which is the
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: whole point. But then he realizes as he goes on
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: that most energy centers are actually pretty fucked up, and
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: so they actually require the breathing what we call like
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: tumo or like all those like auDA yoga practices. And
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: then also like the movement he's adding in the specific visualization,
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: which I think is really interesting because you can also
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: do that with obviously, and you can sort of work
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: your way through the densities, and you can also say
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: in like more traditional kamala, especially if we're looking at
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: like Rabbi Cordebo, we're talking about part of so five density,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: a five density system that is like the secret layer.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Of course, you can say there are seven densities, just
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: like you can say there are seven chocos. Is there
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: too a exoteric layer, but data can also be resolved
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: in the more inner attract Anyways, I'll shut up, but
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: great points, Thank you, Richard.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's cool, that's good.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 10: Yeah, I was just gonna say one thing about the
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 10: five as well.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: It's like there's five planets and two luminaries, right, so
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know that also kind of ties in
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: with that. And then I also like when you talk
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: about the consistency of like a person like that, also
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: like in Buddhism, there's call the ten factors and so
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: like to remain like consistent in your attaining of your Buddhists,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: of your Buddhist identity, you know, your Buddhist practice, it's
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: like the consistency from beginning to end, but there is
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: relations in between, so I can understand, like maybe he
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: starts out wanting people to just be consistent, like just
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: beyond that consistent flow of like attaining that enlightenment, but
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: then yeah, understanding your relationships to the world around you,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: you need those practices to kind of change your essentially
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: your energies that you have a different relationship with the
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: external forces outside of you. And you know, so it's
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: like because you have to overpower those things, right, so
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: then you do need those practices so that you can
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: change your frequency not be manipulated by other things. So
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: it is interesting like how you know, Jin kind of
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: talks about how ties into Buddhism as well and also
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: astrology too.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that is interesting. That is interesting. One thing that
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 5: Jin said about the bodies as well, because that was
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 5: you could say Gurjeff's main aim was for a man
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: to crystallize a causal body because I think, uh, this
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: is more me leaning on the general Western esoteric tradition.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: But with causal bodies or the higher being bodies, Gurjeff didn't.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: He said that it's not a given. Most people actually
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 5: don't have higher being bodies, and like you could say,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 5: like like Steiner when he talks about higher being bodies
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: of animals, like and animals don't have their own causal body,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: Like there's just a causal body for the entire species
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: of an animal or a group of animals, or just
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 5: share one causal body. Funnily, enough, and so it's almost
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: like we're a part of this mass. We're not differentiated.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 5: And the work is that to actually differentiate ourselves, but
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: to become a true individual, and that is to crystallize
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: higher being bodies, to crystallize our own astral body, which
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: can survive death, and our own causal body, which can
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: go to the center of the universe, and we can
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: meet his sovereign endlessness in high five or whatever. Can
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: I just also say one thing, I just want to
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: turn to the chat and look at some slander that
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: I saw through my peripheral vision, crow Buck said at
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: one point. Yeah, the whole thing about Gurdaf's cosmology, it's
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: completely metaphorical, no wrong, read Bills Bub's tales to his grandson.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 5: His entire cosmology is intertwined and interlinked and meshed together
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: so much with his anthropology, which is meshed into his psychology,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: which is then meshed into his praxis. It's all interconnected.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 5: That's actually the beauty of his system. Everything is interconnected.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: So actually it does matter, and you're wrong, crow Butt.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: Now anyway, anyway, I just wanted to I just wanted
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: to address that. But yes, yes, higher being bodies, higher
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: being bodies, and so that's one thing that's different about goje.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 5: In some systems they say, man already has these high
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: being bodies and we need to to re use them.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 5: Gojef is like, nah, you don't even have them. We
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: got to start from square one. We got to start
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: from nothing.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: One thing I wanted to add to ask, I don't
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 4: know if you know of this practice. Maybe I don't
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: know if anybody on the show maybe knows of it.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: The middle pillow ritual Dad has five chakras, and that
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: to be I haven't really heard of any I didn't
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: even know, you know, So that's that's the only time
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: I ever heard of the five. So hearing this again,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: I was like, that's interesting.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the middle pillar is based on the the what
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: is it? The Tree of life, so he would have
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: just used the middle ones. I guess it's the what
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: is it? Malcoth, Yesod, Tipper f Dot and Katerre to
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: achieve the middle pillar. So it makes sense. It makes
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: sense that. Yeah, that is interesting. Actually, it's yeah, it's good.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 5: It's hard because early day Gurge really wasn't into that
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: kind of stuff, but he seems to.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: That would have been around his time. For sure. That
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: was actually if I mean, if the is it a
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: story that like I guess the Golden Dorm would have
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: been around using that prior to probably him correct, I thought.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: What is Israel regard? I really pioneered that, and it
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: was very basic. I'm not sure you're.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: Gonna have to get like no, no, no, you're right,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: you're right. I think that is a purely Israel regardy.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: You're correct, but no, it's it's the frame, the framework
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 5: is there. But it's like there's more than one ways
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: to skin a cat, is what I like to say,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: and so like to crystallize a higher being body, to
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 5: crystallize an astrobody. Some people will say, you need to
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 5: use tantra, you need to use sexual tantra only dual cultivation,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 5: whereas other people like, no, there's an alchemy only using
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: mercury technique which you can use, or you can to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: crystallize high being bodies, or you can do this with
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: this specific way or that specific way. It's like there's
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: different routes up the mountain kind of thing. And so
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: Gurje seemed to be using a similar framework to a
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: lot of other people, but he was avoiding their style
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: and their techniques for whatever reason.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: That's interesting. I mean there could be for many reasons. Uh,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: you stocked and you don't want to getting influenced by him,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: or you could even flip that and he could be like,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: I don't want anybody to know where this comes from,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: so they only come to me.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 5: M He really seemed to be he really seemed to
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: have a thing against imagination exercises early on. He was
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: really against that, and I kind of understand where he's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: coming from, because like the line between imagination and fantasy
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: can be quite blurry for some people. And I find
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 5: like a lot of people who do like visualization exercises,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: there are some people who go full skitz. So it's
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 5: like it's too much for them, and they you know,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: they do a visualization exercise and they come back next
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: day being like, yes, I am a reincarnation of Jesus.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 5: That's true, that's me.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: You just go through Instagram, you see that little day.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 10: Those things are both Neptunian as well.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: So it's like when people have strong neptunes in their chart,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: like they really do have to distinguish between fantasy and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: your imagination and how to gear it in the right direction.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: So when I work with people that have a strong neptune.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: That's like one thing I always have to help them
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: with is like make sure your mind is in the
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: right spot because your greatest fears are also part of
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: your fantastical imaginal realms.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 10: So it is interesting.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: I think it is important to have like a really
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: grounded state before you even touch that area.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: For sure.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: That was really great, Kaiba. Sorry, sorry, no, I just
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: wanted to say that I was thinking that the whole time,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: and but you touched on it in the planetary way
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: like neptune. But I would call it hoke mom and say,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: that's the imaginal realm. That is where like the smoky
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: wisdom obviously exists in the space of your mind. So
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: that is like where the flux is. We're all like
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: the particulates of the ideas and the words. It's overconceptualization
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: when you concretize those things. And that's why he avoided it.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense. It's like how people
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: use Zogchin or zen practice before they undertake more esoterica,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: so they can like learn to do the sitting, learn
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: to hit the primordial ground the five that you saw it,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: because in Tantra we would actually reposition ya Sade as
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: the five rather than as the nine. So it's kind
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: of interesting like that too, if you think about it,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: that's the primordial ground. You're going to go up to tifferent.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: You want to go through the secret letter of Samech, right,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: how do you do that? Well? Semech is also an arrow.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting, interesting, Thank you.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 8: I didn't know that you can actually relate the cabolatry
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 8: of life to the planets.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, it's part of the hermetica.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 8: About that sometime, mister jin.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty good at the safrietta.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: And did he work much with the planets and stuff
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: like that, or like what is his cosmology and that
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: kind of stuff?
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 5: So his cosmology is somewhat interesting. He doesn't work with
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: the planets in the sense of, like in a ritual magic.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 5: He's he's kind of against that in the sense of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 5: you need to like in a hermetic way. It's like
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 5: the hermitas say you need to what do you say,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: get out of the influence of the planets. You need
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 5: to develop yourself, so you're released from the influence of
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: the planets. That's more his take when he talks about planets.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 5: So he'll talk about being and different levels of being,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: and he'll say, you know, man has had a specific mass,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 5: and so when the planetary rays and forces hit the world,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: that men act in a specific way in wars happen
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 5: because of different planetary conjunctions, and so when you differentiate yourself,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: you go above that level. So the energies from the planets,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: it's not that they don't hit you, but you rise
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: above the effects on the mass man, and you're no
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: longer under those laws anymore. You're beholden to a different
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: set of laws. You're a different quality ontologically, you're a
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 5: different quality of human. So that's how he kind of
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: views the planets, not necessarily as negative, but because most
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: people are beholden to normal person consciousness or NPC, they
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 5: can't transform the planetary energies, and just problems happen. So
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 5: via developing the consciousness, you can rise above that. When
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 5: he talks when he talks about plants, he does talk
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: about them. In his cosmology. He talks about a reciprocal nourishment,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 5: that everything is connected, and things that happen in the
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: stars affect the earth, but then those effects on the
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 5: Earth have wild effects that can then have certain effects
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: in the universe as well. So there's because things are interconnected,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 5: that shows it's not necessarily we're special, but it shows
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 5: that attention is placed on Earth, and you know, angels
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: do come down to fix and do maintenance on things
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: because if they don't, it'll create catastrophe throughout the universe
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 5: because everything is interconnected, and it's a part of understanding
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 5: that interconnectedness is then understanding you could say the escape mechanism,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 5: because it's like how do you escape then, or how
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: do you develop yourself? Then how do you work with
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: or against the system as an individual? It's very difficult,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 5: but you also can't save the world. Those people who
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 5: are like, we're gonna save every everyone, We're gonna enlighten,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: We're all gonna go to the fifth dimension. Gurjrif was like, nah, nah,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: not gonna happen. He was basically like, only it's it's
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: one person, yeah, one person, no everybody, no, But a
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: group of people working together, now you can do something
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 5: and just that group, just that kind of group. So
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 5: in a sense he was a bit of a spiritual elitist,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 5: but via via working in a specific way to feed
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 5: the planets, and this is where the looshe his version
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: of loosh comes in which he calls a skoken. And
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: the whole concept of this was man in prehistoric times
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 5: would release loosh or a skoken naturally. But because of
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 5: our degeneration, there's actually a whole kind of thing to
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 5: do of like Kunda buffer and the bifurcation of the consciousness.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 5: But to speed run this, at one point in time,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 5: we were cool and we were just releasing, we were
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 5: transform us for energy. We would receive cosmic energy and
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 5: we'd transform it naturally and just release this and some
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: of it would stick into us and become out higher
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 5: being bodies, and then some of it would be emitted
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 5: ambiently and go back into the effor present like cycle
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: and generation of all planets. Nowadays, that doesn't happen. We're
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 5: just solid where egoic energy comes in and just gets
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 5: stuck and it doesn't transform. It's like a dead weight.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 5: And so the only time energy is transformed is either
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 5: in times of great emotional turmoil. Are you you know,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 5: when you're in great pain, or you know, in great
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: bounts of ecstasy or when you die, a large amount
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 5: of energy is basically released. So this is another reason
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: why because Earth is like a sieve. Well it's not.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 5: Earth is like a sieve. Humanity acts no longer like
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 5: a transformer, more like a sieve that just blocks energy.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 5: So the planet's force wars to kind of happen so
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: that people will die and a skoken or loosh will
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: be released yea to help to help the universal economic
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 5: Nature loves us. Nature loves us very brutal, but she
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 5: also doesn't care about our development. She's just happy with
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: how it's going. Whereas if we want to rise above this,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 5: we do need to pay a tithe to nature, and fundamentally,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: via transforming energies within us, that loosh or a skoken
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: is like separated from the elements and is released. But
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 5: because it's separated, those then are then the elements we
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 5: can use to crystallize higher being bodies. So his system
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 5: is interconnected with his cosmology because the cosmology states that
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: we're in this horrific cycle set up by archons, which
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 5: in his syst the angels are kind of fuck ups.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 5: In his system, he has God, and God is technically good,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: but everything below God is relative and purely relational, so some, yeah,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 5: some angels will appear like tyrants to us, and some
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: will be more friendly, but fundamentally, fundamentally they goofed. They
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 5: completely goofed and like and just set this system up
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 5: to kind of keep the universe going. They're bad maintenance men,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: and we arise are part of the reason of you know,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 5: crystallizing higher astral and higher causal body is we can
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 5: either go back to the sun absolute where God is,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 5: or we can help out with world maintenance and was
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 5: world creation and maintenance. We can help out with like
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: making the world better in that way from a higher level.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: And that's very interesting because this also sets him apart
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 5: from something like Sufism, where it's like the annihilation of
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 5: the self is the point in Gurjef's cosmology, It's like, no, no,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: there needs to be somewhere. If you're going to have
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: something that's doing world maintenance, there needs to be something
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 5: and there needs to be a kind of a personality
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 5: of pilot that So in gourge of System, the personality
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: doesn't dissolve. You're actually immortalizing it in a sense. You're
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 5: actually right, Yeah, it's more of the there's almost like
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 5: two different spiritualities. Does dissolution and then coagulation and he's
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 5: more on the coagulation, coagulating higher being, bodies, deification. I'm
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: not sure if he would never use that term. It's
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: not about becoming a god or something, but fundamentally, you're
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 5: becoming something permanent, so you can perpetuate yourself in the
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 5: universe and help God. Help relieve the suffering of God
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 5: is what he says, which is interesting. We relieve God's
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 5: suffering by doing the work.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: Well, the story you related is found in the Brahmanda Piranha,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: which was written in the third century retranslated in about
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: the fifth, but it talks about this exact thing, like
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: how we need to well, the world is in a
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: half an eggshell, and so you have to tip it
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: one way or the other to sort of get the
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: souls out. When there's too much sin, it overflows, sort
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: of like that Siv metaphor you gave. And I also
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: love that you brought up the Sufi tie to Gevra.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: I've talked about this many times, like the Islamic preference
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: is to Mars or Gevra or you could say to Ketu,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: because it's like the illusion of spiritual liberation through material liberation.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: So like the death of the body will actually grant
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: you spiritual liberation. But as Lurias said, there is a
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: secret path between Gevra and hok Ma. So it brings
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: back to the point of Kaiva saying about Neptune and
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: sort of keeping the cycle going, because that's exactly what
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: it would do, because that's the most active sort of
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: creative Seffro after Ketter, right, But if you're going middle pillar,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: you need more impulse, you need more force, like you
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: were saying, the thrusting of the arrow, So hopefully you
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: would never need to go to the extreme of the
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: right hand or the extreme of the left. You could
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: actually bring it together in synthesis in the fifth sort
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: of perception of consciousness, the middle path exactly.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 5: It's very interesting.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 7: I have a question you were mentioning his editing style
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 7: kind of integrated more work into the work, if you will,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 7: And it would seem to me that he instituted stress
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 7: and confusion as part of his dancing and movements or whatever.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 7: I wonder maybe if you could touch on that and
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 7: maybe even share an example of some of the things
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 7: that he would share with people to do.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So this is one of the more controversial points
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 5: of Gurgea fas he was a bit of a bastard,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 5: like you know, he he there's stories of because it's like,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 5: you know, you don't get anything for free, so what happens.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 5: What happens if you just stumble upon the work, well,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 5: then it needs to be made hard in a sense.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 5: That's how he kind of saw it. It's that there
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: needs to be this time to be paid, and so
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 5: he'll have He would often do some thing, some of
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 5: these things where he'd make certain commands or he'd have
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: certain he'd have certain practice. I'm not sure if you
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 5: could call it a practice. With some people, he'd tell
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 5: them to do something and it would change their character fundamentally,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 5: but it would also kind of break them. So like
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 5: like one guy, one guy, he was like, you need
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 5: to stop smoking. And this guy was chronic smoking his
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 5: entire life. Is like stop smoking. That's your spiritual practice
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 5: that I'm giving you. Stop smoking. And the guy like
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 5: stressing out, you know, change, you know, go, and he
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 5: going through all the motions that smokers do, you know,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 5: throwing away all his cigarettes and then like stressing out,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 5: and then he finds one like under the couch that
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 5: he missed a couple of days later, and he's like no, no,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 5: I and like, you know, this guy's life was was
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 5: made a living hell just via this one practice, just
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 5: via this one stress, and it's like he had to
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 5: like stop it. And then he like came to Gerjeff
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 5: and was like I can't do it. I can't do
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 5: It's like, please give me another pranks like no, you
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 5: need to you need to quit smoking, you need to
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 5: do this, and it's like and then it's like he
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 5: tried and he tried to try, and then eventually at
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 5: one point he quit and he was like good for
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 5: a couple of months and go just like no, you
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 5: haven't truly quit yet. Do this, you know, go off
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 5: and come back, and it's like, you know, he relapsed
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 5: to a point. He's like no, Gerjhaff was right, and
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 5: he tried and tried, and then like after like two
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 5: years or like after some years, he eventually came back
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 5: to Gerdjef and was like I'm a changed man. I've
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 5: finally done it. And then and Gerdjeaf looked at him
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 5: and was like, yes, I see now you've changed. And
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 5: then Gurjef was like, your next spiritual practice is this,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 5: and he reaches into his pocket and he pulls out
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 5: a pack of cigarettes and puts on the table. Now,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 5: smoke the entire pack, and it's this like oof, because
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 5: you know, you think about it, it's like this is
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 5: the teaching of not to be too far one way
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 5: or the other. It's like, if you're too loose, he's
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 5: just a degenerate. And so he's teaching him to be
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 5: staunch and strict, so strict like iron that he breaks
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 5: the addiction. But now he stricts like iron, and that's
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 5: a barrier. And so it's like the thing that saved him,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: that pulled him out of being like addicted to smoking,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 5: is now a barrier and now that needs to be dissolved.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 5: And it's just you hear that story and you just
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 5: feel for the guy, like, ah, imagine the pain of
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 5: like then smoking those cigarettes like ugh, like also like
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 5: the guilt and like oh, like that would also thinking
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 5: about Gerda, Like clearly he would be laughing while this
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 5: would be happening, like he was a bit of a
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 5: bath it let's not let's let's not mince words here,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 5: Like there are there are stories of him being a
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 5: nice guy. There are stories of him like when he
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 5: died all of a sudden like Uh, all these people
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 5: from like orphanages and charities just came to his funeral
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 5: and everyone was like, who are you guys? Like no one,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 5: no one knew he was donating all of these things.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 5: Like there are stories of him Gurdef the good guy,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 5: but there are some stories where it's like Gurdjef the
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 5: absolute savage and he would do things like that to
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 5: that to people, like really break them, like not just
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 5: the teaching you know, I can get you, We can
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 5: get get the teaching you can give the teaching intellectually
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 5: of oh, don't be one way and don't be the
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 5: other way, be in the middle. But he embedded that
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 5: teaching in the guy's body basically, and that's like, that's
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 5: that's how harsh he could be in that sense.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: There's a somebody in the chair mentioned in the ray
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: of creation.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 5: Yes, so Gurjef had a lot of terms, so he
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 5: used the term of creation. But then the ray of
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 5: creation is the thing that comes from the absolute. So
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 5: when you look at Kabbala, when you look at a
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 5: generic Western Hermetic Kabbala poster, and you see the absolute,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 5: you see the ainsoft and then you see the spheres
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 5: and there's usually the lightning bolt going through the spheres.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 5: That's the ray of creation. So in his system it
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 5: comes from the absolutely. It's in his system. It's weird
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 5: because there's God, but then all of a sudden there's ether,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 5: there's primordial matter, and basically out of the absolute, the
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 5: ray of creation shines into the ether, and you get arising,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 5: you get process, you get worlds appearing. So he and
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 5: he has words, all terms for all these things and
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 5: how they are. His term for the ray of creation
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 5: later on is Oki Danok. And of course the different
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 5: arisings are the Heptaparapashanoch, the law of seven, and creation
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 5: happens in three, the law of Triamazi Kamno. And he
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 5: gets wild. He creates a whole new almost language basically
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 5: of bills Abub talking to Hassi, and of course they're
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 5: going to use alien language, and they have all of
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 5: these what are called neologisms, all of these new terms
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 5: that you have to kind of like learn and adapt to.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 5: And there that almost in and of itself, I think
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 5: is some kind of esoteric practice as well, because the
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 5: way he structures words like you'll read it and it
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: like trips up your tongue It's almost as if he
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 5: puts a bunch of valves and then all of a sudden,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 5: like three consonants next to each other to make you
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 5: go that. It's almost like as you're saying the word,
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 5: your voice has to take a right turn. It's hard
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 5: to describe, but when you if you've read Bills Abub,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 5: you know exactly what I'm talking about. And it's these
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 5: words he uses, have these specific terms, but that one,
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 5: the ray of creation is fundamentally this thing that comes
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 5: into the universe, comes into the ether, arises everything, and
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 5: we have the ray of creation within us. It descends,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 5: but then they're, well do we have it there? It descends,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 5: but then it needs to return, and so there's this
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 5: splitting that happens, and this multiplicity. And now we're a
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 5: multiplicity and we're trying to re bring things together, cut
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 5: off some elements, refine other elements there and there are
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 5: all gurge of terms for this, the jot Clumb principle
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 5: of dissolution. There's such weird terms, man like you cut
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 5: and then the bringing of it together and us reascending
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 5: up the ray of creation and back into the absolute.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: I like that. No I had ideas off maybe that
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: was possibly cobbalistic. That's what it made me think of.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 4: I wasn't necessarily thinking the way you would explain it
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: makes sense, But for some reason I was thinking about
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: like Netsa going to hoade, where there's like that kind
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: of like a rainbow going over, which is just my opinion.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 4: If we didn't have color, I don't know how dense
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: or how descriptive this world would look.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 5: Mm hmmm.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 4: I think it is a huge part of the matrix
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 4: if you want to look at it, Letha. You know,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: like starts giving shade, you get depth, you get all
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: sorts of stuff. But the way you said it makes
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: total sense. But I always think of like some sort
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 4: of like rainbow ray coming out from seven going to
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: me what you're saying, Nick, Sorry, sorry, no, go ahead,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: go ahead, go ahead.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: No, It just that makes total sense, like exactly what
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: you're saying, Like I'm following along, like you're seeing the
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: light hit the diamond at nuts oc You can say
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: that because that is the Joches stone for Venus. So
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: you're seeing, like the respondent ray go into the cut diamond.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: It's refracting into hoade like the pink right, and then exactly. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: out of the duck side of the moon. That's exactly
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: how I picture that that experience. Well, whatever that's going
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: on right there, that's funny.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 5: So someone in chat said, Lamu Goodjiff, sounds like an
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 5: Eastern European dad, and I'm like, yeah, he was, That's
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 5: exactly what he was.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 4: They might have any questions before I ask another one,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 4: so they have another question I wanted to ask.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: I have an actual question millenarianism, men, Geriff. This is
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: like a big I know, it's a huge You just
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: answer it in your way, Richard, like whatever way. There's
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: no expectation, but you know, this is a big question
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: because a lot of like left hand path people practice
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: Gurjeff as well as you were saying, it's very easily
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: adoptable to different systems, and there's a lot of millinery
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: in thinking around Ospensky, and because of Spensky's obviously very
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: much tied to Gurjeff, they have this like well, Jason George,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: he talks a lot about this. It's obviously not exactly
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: the same, but it's a version. It is a version
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: of what Ospensky was saying, and sort of Gurdjeff also
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: alluded to at least some of his students said of
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: like a kind of world catastrophe and some people, I'm
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: not saying I believe it. I don't believe this, Okay,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: So I'm nobody. Nobody get mad at me, but I'm
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: just saying that they some people do believe that we
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: are undergoing like a poll shift in like twenty thirty.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: This is obviously what Jason talks a lot about. There is,
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: and there was an astrological thing in twenty twenty. Actually
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: there was a reversal of the polls of Rahu and Katu,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: so they would normally Rahu normally eclipses the moon, but
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty there was like a vernal eclipse that
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: eclipse the sun. And then also Keatu usually clipses the sun,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: but in this time eclips the moon, so that in
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: Tantra that would signal a kind.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 4: Of poll shift.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: So I'm just what I'm saying is I think it's
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: conceptual personally, but a lot of people have tied it
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: to actual like poll shift of the world. So the
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: coasts are gonna, you know, evaporate or whatever. I don't know,
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: so just address it in Sorry that was meandering, but
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: address it in you in your way, Richard, thank you.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Gurjeff did not have a very good view of
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 5: the coming ages. He saw everything in a continuous degeneration.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 5: So it's like, as my understanding millenarianism, it's like the
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 5: coming times. And it's like he didn't he wasn't promoting
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 5: a golden age at all, because like he when he
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 5: talks about prehistory and like Atlantis and he'll talk about
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 5: that kind of culture, it's degeneration like each time you know,
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 5: something was lost and coming down, and then prehistory Babylon,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 5: and then his historical Babylon, and at different periods, different
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 5: masters would be sent to kind of pick man up again.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 5: But because of you know, man's desire for a desire
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 5: for but man's tendency of reciprocal destruction and the insanity
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 5: that would be there's this insanity that comes over men
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 5: to also destroy things of the past, the tearing down
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 5: statues and things like that. He says that is because
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 5: of that objective science is always lost. Like a guy
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 5: will come Jesus Buddha. You know that he gives his
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 5: own kind of names. He has one guy called Ashiata
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 5: shimash who is the greatest savior of humanity who seems
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 5: to be a composite being. In my opinion, a lot
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 5: of people are trying to figure out what Gurja meant
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 5: by Ashiata shimash who he was in the past, and
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 5: like some people say, well, Zarathustra. To me, it seems
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 5: like he's a combo of Zarathustra, Homistress, Magistus, and Moses.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 5: Like when he talks about that guy, it's really really interesting.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 5: This is another thing. Sometimes Gourgreful speak literary, sometimes metaphorically.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: Sometimes it'll be like true, two different stories that are
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 5: true mashed together with a little bit of flavor on top,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 5: like that's that's how kind of Gurgef writes. But after
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 5: all of this, it's like things just get worse and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 5: worse and worse. At one point in time, he claims
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 5: that there was no subconscious on man, it was just consciousness.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 5: And then there was a bifurcation, and then there's the subconsciousness,
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 5: and then the subconscious grew bigger, and then certain being
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 5: impulses that we had in our consciousness were corrupted, and
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 5: certain other ones were not lost but were sealed in
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 5: the subconsciousness. And it's just like we've gotten worse and
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 5: worse and worse, and it's more mechanical and more mechanical
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 5: until we reach modern day. And at the fundamentally at
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 5: the end of Bilsbob's tails, he basically says something like
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 5: the only way that you could help humanity as a
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 5: whole would be is if you genetically attached a new
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 5: or put a new organ into humans that would constantly
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 5: remind them of their death. And it's like that would
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 5: be the only way to save the world. Other than that,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 5: they're screwed and you can only save a few at
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 5: a time by giving them the work. And so he
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 5: doesn't have a there's going to be a golden age,
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 5: there's going to be a renaissance. He's just like, nah, now,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 5: this would be the only way to save humanity, but
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 5: it's not going to happen. So get a small group
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 5: of people who you think are cool, do the work together,
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 5: and that's the best you can hope for.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Because I mean, at the end of the day,
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, how do we even know that we are
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: all meant to be enlightened beings?
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 10: Anyways?
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: You know, like this idea that like everybody is even
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: coherent or even aware of their journey.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 10: How many people are just like.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: NPC characters and they're just here to like you know,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: channel whatever's spirits that we need because in like Buddhism, right,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: like we have these karmic relationships with everything in our
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: reality to teach us right, so that we can clear
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: our karma and change the causes and have different effects.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: So it is interesting to think about, you know, maybe
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 3: we're not all meant to be, or maybe not everybody's
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: meant to be enlightened or saved, or maybe they're not
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: even conscious, who knows.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 10: You know, I can agree with that. I can agree
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 10: with what he's saying.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yes, it's hard, right because it's like
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: you why, like you and I have talked about this
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: kind of like we I believe in like Buddha nature.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: I believe that like even the most NPC can be
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: at least a little bit karmically cleared for their next
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: you know, their next go round, and but people can
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: only It's it's like how Richard was talking about how
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: gurd of embasized praxis, and like how you and I
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: have discussed this is like in Buddhism practices everything. So
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: it's like, how do you get people there. Well, only
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: only the person can be an agent of their own product.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, one thing I wanted to ask you if you
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 4: knew about what could you Did he get into anything
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 4: with music or sound?
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, he had. His part of his cosmology and
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 5: his early energetic system is connected to diatonic basically the
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 5: sound music theory, which is that's and that's a hell
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 5: of a thing to kind of go through. But he
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 5: because he uses the law of seven when he says
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 5: things are created by the law of three affirming, denying,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 5: and reconciling. These forces are everywhere. You know three Gooner's
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 5: three primary forces Father sun hooly spirit. There's an affirming force,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 5: a denying force, and a reconciling force, you know le Chokma,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 5: been A and catre. When things are created, they then
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 5: go through process, and the process is the law of
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 5: seven heptaparapashanok And when he first talks about that in
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 5: the early days with Ospenske, he basically uses the sound
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 5: scales no mi fa so la ci and he uses
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 5: numbers as well. Martin is morosegrish Oto Bota golden on temples.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 5: There's definitely an esoteric school in your city if you
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 5: look online, thank you newlu the He he uses that,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 5: and he also uses math, specifically arithmetic to talk about
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 5: different densities of energy. And so in the early days
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 5: he'll say, like, the food you eat is at a
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 5: certain density. It's that oh geez off the top of
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 5: my head, I'm not sure fighting that. He says, like
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 5: air is like one nine two. But then even impressions,
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 5: impressions come into you, know, like you breathe in. That's
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 5: you know, atoms are going into you. Even impressions have
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 5: a weight, and that weight is like forty eight. It
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 5: has the weight of hydrogen forty eight, whereas your air
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 5: is hydrogen one nine to two. There's food, I think
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 5: food is like three seven six or something like that.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 5: Three seven eight. They all have different densities and they
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 5: go into your body and transform along the musical scale,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 5: do re mi fa so la. See why he talks
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 5: about that is because of octaves. So the best way
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 5: to talk about this is, you know, on a piano,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 5: a piano has fifty two keys, but if you cut
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 5: off the two keys and even end, it's forty nine.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 5: So that's seven times seven. You have seven octaves on
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 5: a piano. So it's really easy to look at that.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 5: The white keys are the do re mi fa sola
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 5: si what are the black keys? The black keys are semitones,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 5: and you'll notice so it's placed between. So between do
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 5: and dough and ray is a semitone. Between ray and
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 5: me is a semitone. So between the white keys is
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 5: a black key. But there's not one black key for
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 5: every white key. So between do remi, between me and
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 5: far is a missing black key. There's no black key,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 5: and then do remi fasola and between c and the
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 5: dough of the next octave is also a missing black key.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 5: It's like, where are the black keys? There are no
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 5: black keys in creation in these places in the octave.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 5: So an octave being eight, what is it notes from
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 5: dough to dome, So there are two missing semitones. Basically,
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 5: Gurja says, when things are created and then they start
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 5: going through process where there's a missing semitone, it just
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 5: bends or it just stops. Sometimes it will stop or
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 5: sometimes it'll bend. And this is why in nature things
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 5: bend and spiral because it will start to go up
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 5: and then it will hit the missing semitone and if
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 5: nothing fulfills that semi tone, it'll just kind of curve.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 5: He also talks about this in Yeah. So in the body,
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 5: when you eat food, it starts to dissolve, but when
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 5: it reaches a missing semitone, Nature fills in that gap
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 5: because it needs to otherwise we just die. Well, otherwise
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 5: we wouldn't be able to reproduce because the food hydrogen
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 5: hydrogen dough three seven eight or whatever. I hope I'm
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 5: not losing you guys, eventually transforms goes dough remi fasola
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 5: and ends up as C twelve, which is sexual energy.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 5: So if nature didn't fill in the missing semitone within us,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 5: we wouldn't have any sexual energy and we wouldn't be
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 5: able to reproduce. But she does because she wants us.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 5: She wants us around. She may not want us to
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 5: leave an escape, but she wants us around, so she
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 5: fills in that missing semitone automatically, we get C twelve.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 5: We get A twelve hydrogen, which is great, But there
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 5: are other hydrogens in our body that hit the missing
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 5: semitone and then they just don't progress. But if they
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 5: did progress, they would start to develop something else. So
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 5: like the our air, which is hydrogen a dough one
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 5: nine two. It goes dough me ray. So when it
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 5: goes it automatically transforms from dough to me. So it
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 5: will go hydrogen one ninety two to hydrogen what is
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 5: it ninety eight, and then it will go so me
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 5: ninety eight and then ray forty No, no, I think
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 5: it's ninety six, and then then ray forty eight. Yeah,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 5: something like that. This is off the top of my head,
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 5: so I'm doing math. Well I'm talking, but basically air
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 5: will transform down to this, but then it just stops there.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 5: It just stops in your body at a certain level,
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 5: at what gurgers would say, at density forty eight. But
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 5: if you do breathing exercises and transform it, it continues
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 5: along and it eventually reaches a density of six. This
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 5: is the only time you see a six hydrogen in
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 5: the human body. And the reason why that's important is
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 5: because in gurge of system, your centers, your intellectual, your emotion,
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 5: and your motor center work off different hydrogens. They have
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 5: different refinements of hydrogens. So your intellectual center likes hydrogen
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 5: forty eight, your emotional center likes hydrogen twenty four. Your
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 5: motor center can work off hydrogen ninety six. But your
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 5: higher cylinders, or your sexual cylinder works off hydrogen twelve.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 5: It's the sexual energy. The higher centers that Gurge have
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 5: talked about, the higher functions, they only work on hydrogen six.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 5: So his whole kind of music theory is connected to
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 5: energy transformation. But also things in the universe are kind
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 5: of tear ranks. Like outer He'll say, like coming out
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 5: of the absolute is hydrogen six. It's the most refined hydrogen,
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 5: then hydrogen twelve and hydrogen twenty four. There's nothing in
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 5: the universe that corresponds to them, or there are things,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 5: but science hasn't found them because they're too rarefied. And
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 5: then he would say, like hydrogen forty eight is pure impressions.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 5: Hydrogen ninety six is kind of like ether someone who
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 5: hasn't I like to say, like if you yourself have
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 5: a surplus of hydroden ninety six. You know in anime,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 5: if you ever watch an anime and there's a sexy
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 5: character and they have sparkles, those sparkles are hydrogen ninety six.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 5: That's what ninety six is. Hydroden ninety six is animal
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 5: magnetism to Gurje. And then it's like then the next
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 5: one is air, then the next one's water, and then
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 5: was human food anything that a human can eat and
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 5: digest is like hydrogen three seven eight I think. I
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 5: think that's correct. And then underneath that would be organic
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 5: objects that you can't beat eaten, so like wood, and
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 5: then be lower than that would be like metals. And
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 5: then there's also two even denser ones after that. So
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 5: he has this number system connected to the diatonic sound
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 5: system that he uses, and it's connects to his cosmology,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 5: which connects to his energy theory, and it's and the
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 5: whole point of the energies is also to transform to
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 5: get higher being bodies. To get higher being bodies, you
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 5: need to go up octaves. It's complicated.
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 4: That's wow, there's some depth shit right there.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 4: I knew he was into some some stuff with music
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 4: like you couldn't really I didn't know, was that like that? Crazy?
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 3: M m.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: It's very taton Sorry about that, sorry, qu ahead.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's very It even gets even more complicated
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 5: because when he'll say a hydrogen is created out of something,
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 5: It's created out of a carbon, a nitrogen and an oxygen,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 5: And when you hear that, you're like what the fuck
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 5: hold on? A second? Hydrogen is created out of a carbon,
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 5: oxygen and nitrogen. When he says that to Ospensky, it's
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 5: in a group, and Ospensky says, another person asks does
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 5: this have to do with Western alchemy? And he says, yes,
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 5: I'll explain it to you later, and then refuses to
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 5: elaborate and never does. But if you look at that
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 5: for a second, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, what's oxygen? It's air? Right,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 5: what's a carbon? It's a dense you know, you think
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 5: it's something dense. It's earth. What's nitrogen? Nitrogen? Ignition? Nitrogen explodes,
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 5: nitroglycideren fire, earth, fire, air. And then you can kind
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 5: of think alchemy. You think of a beaker with a fire,
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 5: the nitrogen, and then there's some substance and organic substance
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 5: in it, the carbon, and then the fire is heating
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 5: it up and it creates a vapor oxygen, and then
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 5: the vapor condenses into what hydrogen the water. So when
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 5: he says hydrogen, he's not talking about on the elemental
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 5: table hydrogen. He's literally to about some kind of substance
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 5: that's alchemically transformed in nature. And you have hydrogens in you,
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 5: or you have these alchemical waters that you work with.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 5: It seems if we're talking alchemy, it seems gerde If.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure what he did for himself, but the
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 5: path he woked or he teaches is the wet path
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 5: in Western alchemy, this path of cultivating the waters and
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 5: then dissolving things in the waters, the slower path, whereas
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 5: the dry path is more fiery. But then at other
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 5: times it seems there's a bit of fire.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: The path between Bena and Hopema, because it can go
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: either way, right, it can be plus or ultra. You
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: can be walking towards the heat because Geverer heats Bena,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: just like you're saying, it's like the flame, right, that's
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 2: hitting the bottom of the earth, heating that vessel, that
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: high density vessel. And it also corresponds to the sound
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: like that's what I was going to say. Is a
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: p Turner taught us SATURNI right or whatever Saturnitas, that's
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: what it is. That's like with the octaves of the
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: names of Saturn and moving through the most difficult densities
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: of your life, which are just like emotional or traumatic
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: or whatever consciousness events. So yeah, it makes a lot
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: of sense, and like that path can be one of
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: fire or it can be one of air if you're
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: moving towards hoke maa right, because you're moving towards the
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: post conceptual destruction of the world. So the world will
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: be destroyed, and that's why it's all smoky like Neptunian,
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: like Kaiva said, it's submerged in the deeper supernal waters. Yeah.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 3: And then it's also like what you talked about the
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: beginning in the three bodies, right, three is always one, right,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: so it is interesting that three always equals that final one.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 3: So the three carbon nitrogen oxygen being the one hydrogen
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 3: and that does that tie into that three b Then
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 3: is that like you know what you talked about at
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 3: the beginning or wasn't it three body?
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 10: What was what was it at the beginning?
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 4: Again?
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 5: The have it we have a planetary body and astral
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 5: body in a course, Yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 10: Yeah, mm hmm. Is that like as part of teaching
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 10: it that way or something?
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, At first he basically says to get an astral body,
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 5: you need your C twelve to go up an octave.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 5: Because remember it's like when we talked about the semitones
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 5: between Doray me uh doray me. Between me and far
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 5: is this missing semitone and then between C and then
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 5: the next octave is missing semitone. So if you have
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 5: your sexual energy, it's interesting the sexual energy plays a
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 5: role here if the sexual energy is C twelve. So
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 5: therefore if it's C, there's something beyond that and there's
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 5: some missing semitye what could it be there? So there's
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 5: more than one ways to skin a cat. There's two
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 5: different ways in gurge of system. The way he taught
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 5: to exterior students was through using impressions. Because impressions are
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 5: hydrogen forty eight. You self remember and you transform impressions
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 5: and through transfer, and this can happen through meditation. Through
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 5: transforming impressions, the dough forty eight will go though ray
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 5: me will turn to ray twenty four and then me twelve.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 5: You have two hydrogens that are twelve hydrogens and basically
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 5: you can then smash them together within your body and
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 5: that forces the sexual energy to go up an octave
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 5: and through. So the sexual energy the energy of life,
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 5: if you spill it outside, it creates a body for
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 5: new life, another being, body for another essence. But if
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 5: you transmitted inwards and upwards, or as Gourdif would say,
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 5: you do this transformation with music theory and transforming impressions.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 5: The two hydrogen smack together, your sexual energy goes inwards
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 5: and upwards, and it crystallizes into a higher astral into
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 5: a sorry, an existential being body into an astral body.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 5: That's how a single person would do it. But there's
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 5: also and this is one thing some Gurgiffians are like, no,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 5: he never taught sex magic. But but if you think
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 5: about it, you know the law of seven, you know it.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 5: You know things go out and then they stop when
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 5: they hit a missing semitone. What is this is the
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 5: metaphor our use? What does an orange tree create.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 4: Orae?
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 5: No, an orange tree makes flowers four four than an
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 5: orange to be created, that orange tree needs something to
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 5: fill in the missing semitone, So something outside of itself,
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 5: Nature sends bees to fill in the missing semitone and
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 5: then the orange can be created. So of humans, we
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 5: get to the sexual energy and then Nature's like, spill
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 5: it outside, make more being bodies. But if you keep
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 5: it inside, you're just holding your jiz like one of
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 5: those NoFap dudes. What actually makes it? What actually makes it?
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 5: Go to the next hieroctave you need if just like
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 5: the bee going to the flower, there is this concept
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 5: of dual cultivation through two people doing the work can
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 5: potentially if both of them have the they can use
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 5: the what is it the hydrogen C twelve of the
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 5: other person to then, you know, in a certain practice
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 5: to crystallize a higher being body an astral body. So
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 5: there is something to say for Gurjaf being a tantrica
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 5: using tantra or promoting tantra and certain practices behind closed
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 5: doors to crystallize higher being bodies. But how he usually
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 5: taught and most Gourgiffians that would be like no, no, no,
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 5: this is the only way. It would be like the
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 5: just yourself no yeah, never goon, hold your hydrogen C twelve.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 5: But also transforming impressions and doing certain exercises will create
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 5: a a plus of energy within your body which will
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 5: eventually crystallize. And when you think about the term never gooon,
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 5: and when you think of the term crystallization, think of
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 5: the two forms of crystallization. Like when you have salt
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 5: or sugar crystals in water, you can fill up water
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 5: and just have it like cold, have it cold and
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 5: just saturate it, and then you know, you get a
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 5: stick with some string and you put the string and
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 5: you just leave it for a week and come up
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 5: and there'll be crystals on it. Or you can use
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 5: fire and you can boil the water as you're putting
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 5: crystals in, and as you're putting what is that a
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 5: powder in, salt powder in, and it will supersaturate, and
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 5: then when you cool it down after the supersaturation, crystals
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 5: will just normally just naturally form. So there's a wet
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 5: path and a dry path of water in a fire path.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 5: There's the slow way by yourself as a if you
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 5: want to do it, or if you've got like your
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 5: gang together and you you can potentially do the the
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 5: dry fiery puff tantra puff and crystallize it faster.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: I just want to say or contrakas, not that I
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: speak for all of them, but most people don't do
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: karma mudra, which is what Richard's calling, like quote unquote
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: sex contra. Most people don't do that, but there is
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: an element of maybe restraint and withdrawal, and then also
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: like timing nighttime activities for the niche cycle. So the
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: fourteen or fifteen lunar days of the contrac astrology. So
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: there are concepts that you might are not maybe participating
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: in nighttime activities all the time. But even if that's true,
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: you're not really doing You're not bringing that to Sodna.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: So I just I didn't wanted to clarify that I
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: don't do krmamudra, so nobody write me and ask me
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 5: Yes, I would add that the dry path is always
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 5: said to be more dangerous. That's that's one reason why
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 5: you see the wet path taught more often because the
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 5: wet path, what's wrong? When you add water to water?
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 5: What's the worst that could happen? But if you have
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 5: fire and it explodes in your face, it's a little
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 5: you know, it's tough. So dry path people are people
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 5: will always there are guys who will be like, oh,
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 5: dry path, you know it's the best, but are they
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 5: really doing it? Are they really doing it?
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 4: That's great?
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 7: I wonder if you might mention about the relationship they
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 7: had prior to their meeting, but and after or when
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 7: they met Crowley and Gurgis, what was their reaction to
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 7: each other.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so now there's a book someone wrote and I
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 5: have not read it. But it's called Bill's a Bub
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 5: and the Beast, and it's written by a guy who
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 5: it's actually comparative book about the systems of Crowley and Gerjeff,
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 5: but he mentions the meeting and there. But the meeting
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 5: of Crowley and Gerjef has been mythologized. So I've heard
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 5: there's multiple sources and they all say a bunch of
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 5: different things there and it's but usually it goes in
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 5: one of two. Always the same thing happens where Crowley
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 5: seems to like Gurjef and Gerjeff doesn't like Crowley, and
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 5: it always in most in most of the stories, it
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 5: seems to end with Gerjef saying that man is filthy.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 5: But like it's extreme. There's two extremes. There's either they
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 5: meet and there's I've heard one where apparently as soon
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 5: as he walks on the door, gurj just starts yelling
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 5: at him and you know, gets them out, like leave
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 5: this place and blah blah, you're filthy. But then I've
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 5: heard other ones where it's like they met and they're
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 5: actually like really nice to each other and they actually
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 5: just kind of got a loan, just just speaking, just
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 5: talking and they physically met as well, which is interesting.
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 5: And then it's only when Crowley left that Gerdath turned
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 5: to his associates and said that man is filthy, but
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 5: so fundamentally, the one string that's going through all of
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 5: these weird stories is basically Gurjeff and Crowley met kind
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 5: of eyed each other, sized each other up, and Gurjeff
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 5: didn't think much of Crowley fundamentally. That's that. That's basically
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 5: the story.
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 4: That's great, that's some funny shit. He still thought he
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 4: was fucked up regardless, right, Yeah, yeah, that's kind of funny.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 4: Uh does anybody else have any other questions? All right,
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 4: I guess we could wrap it up. It's almost two hours.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 4: That was great too. That was a lot of shit,
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 4: that's true.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 5: I hope I didn't get too autistic and abstract talking
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 5: about hydrogens.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 4: That was way more. Yeah, it was way more than
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 4: yeah than I've heard it before with the other guests,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 4: you know, not, it's just yeah, he seems very stuck
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 4: on like the food for the Moon concept and shit
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 4: like that.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, people need to let that go. There are some
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 5: things where it's like dog come down. Food for the
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 5: Moon is one.
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 4: It's interesting, but uh, all right, Yeah, I'll have everybody
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 4: promote their shows and then we'll let Richard let everybody
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 4: know where they could find and stuff. But Kaiva, please
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 4: let everybody know where they can find all your stuff
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 4: and whatever you want to know.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a lovely chat. Thanks for Jared. I
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 3: didn't know much about Kircha futt All actually, so this
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 3: was fun and enlightening. And yeah, you can find me
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 3: at Kaiba Rose on Instagram, Facebook and you. I also
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 3: have a young adult novel series called Roue Odyssey. It's
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 3: magical realism, so it's fun and gets into the magic
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff as well.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 10: So thanks again. I appreciate being on the show.
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 4: Nick, thank you of course, no, and thank you for
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: making it. I appreciate it. And my man Jin the
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 4: Ninja what is up? Finer?
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Cardinal, and also thank you to
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: Richard because at least you can't really call yourself autistic
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: when I'm on the stream, as you know, Richard, because
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 2: you know I love Cabala and I'm a qualtist. So
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: here you go, and I'm glad I got to flex
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: a little in front of Jules. You know, it's been
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: a little it's been a quick minute. So anyways, thank
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: you guys so much. Appreciate it. Thank you to everybody.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: And you can check out my show at Threshold Saints
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: at subseack dot com or at YouTube dot com Slash
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: the True Gray Lodge. All the Threshold Saints episodes will
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: be there. There will also be a new series with
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: Solar Exile, who's my sometimes but often co hosts on
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: Threshold Saints. He's doing in office hours, so I'm on
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: two episodes. Aeroscolly on episode so everybody can check that out.
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: It should be really good. It's on the Aonic politics
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 2: and and I'm the daughter really so, thank you so much, guys,
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 2: appreciate it.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 4: No, thank you, Jin, I appreciate you and your questions
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 4: and the stuff you had to add. Appreciate it. Man,
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 4: it was glad you made it. And then we got
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 4: Robbie Marx. What is going on, sir? How are you? Storyteller?
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 5: Doing good.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 6: I just got back from Florida. Some little one out,
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 6: but yeah, I wanted to say thanks to Richard. That
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 6: was It's been years since I've read anything in regard
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 6: to Gerdjef and that was a nice uh you know,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 6: full refresher. But yeah, as far as myself, I'm our
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 6: Marx artist illustrator. You can find all my stuff on
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 6: my link tree which is link tree r Marx. And yeah,
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 6: this was fun just to hang out and kind of
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 6: get a good little refresher. Thanks for having me on, Nick.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 4: No, thank you. Yeah, I yeah, I didn't know much
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 4: about the guy either, so this was really awesome for me.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Uh Ethan Indigo, what is going on? Buddy?
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 7: Thanks everyone was Richard. Thank you so much for dropping
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 7: all the great information. Really appreciate that, Uh Ethan Indigo
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 7: Smith on all the usual suspects of the social media
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 7: and just trying to bring Wisdom Maxing into the public.
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 7: That's everyone is again?
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 8: I like that, right, wis was wisdom Nosis Maxing?
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Better, I like that.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming on, Ethan and my
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 4: man Jules, what was going on?
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 7: Bro?
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for making it.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 8: Thank you for inviting me. This was a banger. Like
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 8: all of you, I did not know much about Courage,
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 8: if only what we had read on that one esoteric
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 8: book review which is tomorrow morning, guys, don't miss out.
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 8: We're reading the pros Eda and uh some treaties by
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 8: Manly P.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 4: Hall.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 8: I think it may be on narcissism, so rat's going
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 8: to be pretty pretty bricked out the entire show anyway. Yeah, no,
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 8: this was a great episode, Richard. I got to get
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 8: you on for an interview. Yeah, yeah, man, we'll schedule
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 8: that in the back channels. But yeah, no, you definitely
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 8: taught me something tonight. I think you watch this tonight,
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 8: you probably taught them something. So thank you. And yeah, guys,
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 8: go over to Patreon Gods of the Morning would nine
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 8: a m. Tomorrow and follow me on x at Great
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 8: Pill Pod. It was good seeing everybody. Hopefully I can
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 8: start making more of these.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: And yeah, no, glad you was good to have you
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 4: on again, man, especially on a Friday night. It's always
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 4: a blessed.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 8: Yeah, after working ten hours, I'm not not worth much,
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 8: but you know I'm not going.
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 4: I was glad you made it man and Richard. Please Richard,
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 4: let everybody know where they can find you, sir.
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me on,
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 5: and thank you for coming pleasure. I'm always down to
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 5: talk a little Gurgi Bergie and yeah, if you want
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 5: to find me, you can find me. Find me on
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 5: my YouTube channel, Richard Ruac. I've got a I read
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 5: through the entirety of bills of Bub's tales to his
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 5: grandson on live stream, which you can check out that
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 5: playlist on my channel. That was a journey. That was
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 5: a journey, and it's I also have a bunch of
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 5: kind of explaining gourja videos, some of the concepts in
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 5: a in a playlist called wise Acreing, which is a
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 5: funny fourth way joke if you're into the fourth way,
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 5: but nonetheless, find me on YouTube, find me on Twitter,
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 5: find me on substack, and uh find me in the
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 5: astral plane. Thank you, thank you for having me.
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 4: Of course, thank you. Hopefully I have you want to
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 4: get in the future at some point. Uh, but yeah,
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 4: thank you everybody on the show. It was a blast.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 4: I really had a good time. And thank you everybody
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 4: in the chat. There's a lot of good questions, a
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 4: lot of good comments. I appreciate it. That's where we
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 4: go live and that's the end of another called reject
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 4: And until the next one, everybody.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: Be well, close your words, look into the darkness, find
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: the blazing storm, focus on it would be called the eclipse.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: Don't feel like the shore you do, and gus
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: You sh