Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Bullies, Brains, and Bystanders: The Truth Every Parent Must Hear [with Prof. Donna Cross Part 1]

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Bullies, Brains, and Bystanders: The Truth Every Parent Must Hear [with Prof. Donna Cross Part 1] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, we're talking bullying, well,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: how we can stop bullying, what we can do to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: prevent bullying, and especially unfortunately, because the world is not perfect,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: how we can respond if our child is either a
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: bully or being bullied.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: It's No Bullying Week.
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  Speaker 1: And up next we're going to have a conversation with
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Professor Donnacross, one of Australia's most esteemed and.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Highly regarded bullying experts.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Stay with us, okay, this is the Happy Families Podcast,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: My name is doctor Justin Coulson.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Doctor Donna Cross is a behavioral scientist and emeritus Professor
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: at the University of Western Australia, Honorary Distinguished Fellow at
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  Speaker 1: the Kids Research Institute Australia and Donna a couple of
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: years ago was appointed as the inaugural New South Wales
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Chief Behavior Advisor, which means Donna is working in the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: New South Wales government to do something about prevention and
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  Speaker 1: safety when it comes to bullying. Just before I bring
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Donna in, I've just got a highlight of all the
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  Speaker 1: people that I could talk to about bullying. Donna was
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  Speaker 1: at the top of my list when I started to
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  Speaker 1: look around and think about who we could talk to.
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  Speaker 1: Donna is literally an internationally renowned academic. She's worked on education,
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  Speaker 1: research and policy in the US, Canada, Finland, Norway, Sweden,
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  Speaker 1: den March, Japan, Israel, and a range of other places,
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  Speaker 1: and has received more awards than we have time for
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  Speaker 1: me to identify and discuss.
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  Speaker 2: Professor cross An Honor.
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  Speaker 1: What a delight to be able to spend fifteen or
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  Speaker 1: so minutes with you talking about bullying today. Thank you
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: for being on the podcast.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Justin, It's great to be here.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you a couple of basic questions
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: then we'll get into some more serious stuff. First one,
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  Speaker 1: we know that we're supposed to be concerned about bullying,
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  Speaker 1: but can you just outline a little bit about why
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: what happens to a child when they are bullied?
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Sadly, there is evidence to suggest that of all of
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: the effects that probably all of us have known for years,
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: that the children will drop off academically. It affects their
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: well being, It obviously affects their social development in terms
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: of their levels of trust. We know it's intergenerational and
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: intra generational, and that means that it's likely if you've
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: been targeted, or if you're someone who bullies, if someone
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: doesn't help you, it will continue through your life that behavior,
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  Speaker 3: that sense of loss of trust, or that bullying is
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: an okay way to treat people. It's also intergenerational because
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: parents who have bullied are more likely to have children
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: who bully, and similarly, parents who have been targeted are
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: more likely to have children who are targeted. I think
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  Speaker 3: the most interesting element justin is the work that we
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: now have regarding its effects on genetics. So epigenetics is
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: the study of how your environment affects your genetic development,
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  Speaker 3: that influences your DNA, influences your neural development, and the
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: most recent science is demonstrating that, in fact, it can
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: change how your brain is structured from the successive exposure.
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  Speaker 3: So it's so worth your attention. Thanks so much for
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: picking this issue to address this week.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you about the epigenetic issues the brain
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  Speaker 1: structure changes. Can you go a little deeper on that?
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  Speaker 1: How does a child's brain change when they are subject
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: to repeated, consistent, ongoing bullying? And I presume there's a
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  Speaker 1: dose response that is, the more bullying occurs, the greater
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: the changes. If that's correct, what are those changes and
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: how do they impact their lives?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, the neuroscience sits behind bullying is so interesting, and
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  Speaker 3: as you suggested justin it is a dose response outcome.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: The more you use a neural pathway, the thing it becomes,
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  Speaker 3: and the more automatic the response. So one of the
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: neural changes is that if you are successful in responding
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: to someone who bullies, that pathways thinking. But if you
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: don't have the appropriate skills and you are defaulting to
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  Speaker 3: a cortisole response, for example, you are setting up a
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  Speaker 3: sort of a fight and flight response that is more automatic,
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  Speaker 3: and it goes back to trauma based responses. In fact,
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  Speaker 3: some researchers have argued that the changes we see in
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  Speaker 3: the brain of a child who's been bullied over a
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  Speaker 3: period of time is not unlike the changes we see
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  Speaker 3: in a child who has been abused by a parent
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  Speaker 3: or somewhere else. So child abuse and bullying is very
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  Speaker 3: similar in terms of the traumatic long term change. Cortisole
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  Speaker 3: responses being triggered to respond in a certain way when
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  Speaker 3: somebody shouts, the sorts of ongoing challenges that we have
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  Speaker 3: in that area. So it's so worth the time and
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  Speaker 3: attention as parents and teachers and so on that we
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  Speaker 3: address this issue thoroughly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, donad When I hear say that, my mind immediately
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  Speaker 1: and tell me if I'm right or wrong here. I
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  Speaker 1: think straight away of the downstream effects of bullying long term,
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  Speaker 1: so adrenaline overdrive, high levels of cortisol. These are stress hormones.
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  Speaker 1: What I'm seeing is down the road, a child who
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  Speaker 1: is bullied is much more likely to be highly reactive,
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  Speaker 1: highly anxious, and either aggressive or stressed, and just trying
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  Speaker 1: to do everything they can to stay away from any
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  Speaker 1: hostile situations. As they get older, my sense is that
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  Speaker 1: they're not going to be highly adaptive and communicative in
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  Speaker 1: challenging moments, whether it's when they're older and they're married
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  Speaker 1: and raising their own kids, or having some relationship to
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  Speaker 1: stress or anything like that. My sense is that these patterns,
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  Speaker 1: these ways of responding distress become maladaptive. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if there's any long term research in this area, but
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  Speaker 1: to me, how does that sit for you? What's your
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  Speaker 1: reaction or response to that?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, well, certainly those maladaptive responses are of that sort
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  Speaker 3: of intergenerational and intra generational change that we see. It
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  Speaker 3: continues over your life, you model these behaviors for your
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  Speaker 3: children going forward. I think what's really important justin is
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  Speaker 3: there's things we can do about it. You know, those
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  Speaker 3: changes occur if there's no help, or there's no intervention,
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  Speaker 3: or there's no prevention. You know, I am skilled to
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  Speaker 3: respond to that event when it occurs, unless likely to
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  Speaker 3: have cortisol response, and unless likely to have the kind
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  Speaker 3: of neurological response that it's more automated. So in us
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  Speaker 3: talking about this, I'm so nervous that we don't want
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  Speaker 3: listeners to think, oh my goodness, this is dreadful, there's
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  Speaker 3: nothing we can do, and it's so serious. It is serious,
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  Speaker 3: but there are definitely actions that can be taken to
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  Speaker 3: protect children.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: I have a couple of other fairly quick, almost lightning
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  Speaker 1: round style questions to just cover off that I think
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  Speaker 1: are really important for setting the foundation for how we
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  Speaker 1: can intervene later. The first one of those is, what
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  Speaker 1: have you seen in research that puts children and young
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  Speaker 1: people at the greatest risk of being bullied?
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: When a child wants to bully somebody, they look for
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  Speaker 3: a certain profile. They mostly look for a lonely child
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  Speaker 3: and a child that won't have an uprising of bystanders
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  Speaker 3: around them. Unfortunately, a child who wants to bully will
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  Speaker 3: fire this bullying at a lot of different children and
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  Speaker 3: wait for the response that they want most of all,
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  Speaker 3: and then concentrate their bullying on that child or group
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  Speaker 3: of children. So, in addition to them being lonely or
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  Speaker 3: not having a group of friends who'd stand up for them. Really, sadly,
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  Speaker 3: and I hate saying this out loud, but sadly it's true,
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  Speaker 3: it's also a child who's not well known by their
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  Speaker 3: teacher and possibly not well liked by their teacher, so
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  Speaker 3: again giving you the extreme profile. But they are two
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  Speaker 3: really important factors they also look for. He gives them
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  Speaker 3: a response, so gets angry or gets upset. So one
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  Speaker 3: of the strategies, of course, is how do we help
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  Speaker 3: kids to feel calm. They might be crumbling inside but
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  Speaker 3: on the outside, stay firm until you can get out
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  Speaker 3: of the situation. In addition to that, children who have
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  Speaker 3: some difference are often targeted so unfairly, but that is
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  Speaker 3: an element as well, and I think when we think
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  Speaker 3: about the child who's doing the bullying. They're often looking
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  Speaker 3: to try and assert their power, and they tell us
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  Speaker 3: through our research that they're looking for ways to demonstrate
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  Speaker 3: the quality of their relationships and to build popularity. So
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  Speaker 3: they're looking to showcase their work and are looking for
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  Speaker 3: an audience. So often they will try to do this
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  Speaker 3: where there are lots of other children watching, and where
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  Speaker 3: those other children won't take a stance against the behavior
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  Speaker 3: they're engaging in.
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  Speaker 1: When you go through that list gives a response not
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  Speaker 1: known and liked and diference as a couple of thoughts
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  Speaker 1: pop up, and I just loved you to maybe elaborate
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  Speaker 1: on a couple of them. Initially, when you said not
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  Speaker 1: known or liked by the teacher, my immediate thought was
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  Speaker 1: children who come from disadvantaged backgrounds are at the greatest
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  Speaker 1: risk here because they're often the least understood. They're often
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  Speaker 1: the most most likely to struggle with discipline and self
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  Speaker 1: control and situational awareness in the classroom. They're much more
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  Speaker 1: likely to have outbursts.
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  Speaker 2: Do I need to be corrected on that?
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  Speaker 1: Or does that sit about right for you politically and
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  Speaker 1: correct as it probably is.
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  Speaker 3: Well. Certainly, when you look at aggregated data. Children who
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  Speaker 3: come from more disadvantage backgrounds are more likely to be bullied. Now,
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  Speaker 3: I don't think that they necessarily have a skills deficit,
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  Speaker 3: but they might be bullied for their economic state. They
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  Speaker 3: might not have the fanciest shoes or whatever that might be.
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  Speaker 3: And also so they have less resources and support around them.
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  Speaker 3: And maybe their disadvantages come from having a parent who
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  Speaker 3: has mental health difficulty, so not having that level of support.
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  Speaker 3: So yes, there are certainly subgroups of children. Girls are
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  Speaker 3: bullied more than boys are. For example, boys are more
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  Speaker 3: likely to bully than girls. We know that children in
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  Speaker 3: regional areas are more likely to be bullied than kids
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  Speaker 3: in metropolitan areas. We know that Aboriginal children are much
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  Speaker 3: more likely to be bullied, but non Aboriginal cold children
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  Speaker 3: from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds are often more likely
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  Speaker 3: to be targeted, and children who are experiencing some disability
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  Speaker 3: sadly are also more likely to be targeted.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like I need to ask why and why
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  Speaker 1: and why again to every single thing that you've just highlighted.
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  Speaker 1: Time will get the better of us today for that,
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  Speaker 1: But just hearing that breakdown, I remember looking at some
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  Speaker 1: research some years ago. You were talking before about differences
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  Speaker 1: children who shop with differences, and you've just listed a
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  Speaker 1: handful of them. But I'm also thinking about weight differences, neurodiversity,
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  Speaker 1: and neurodivergent challenges. I remember somebody talking about if your
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: lunch box smells different, right, if you've got a different
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  Speaker 1: cultural or ethnic heritage and therefore you're bringing different food
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  Speaker 1: to school and everyone smells it goes oh, all of
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  Speaker 1: a sudden, that's a point of difference that they can
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  Speaker 1: pick on. It seems like if somebody wants to bully,
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  Speaker 1: they're surrounded by opportunities to find somebody somewhere, no shortage
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  Speaker 1: at all.
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  Speaker 3: Unless there is there are bystanders or witnesses who are
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  Speaker 3: willing to step up, say something, Sit next to the
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  Speaker 3: child who's alone. You can really shift norms in schools around.
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  Speaker 3: And if somebody's been picked on for what they've got
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  Speaker 3: in their lunchbox, what if everyone else then laughed and said,
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  Speaker 3: of course, you know, stood up for that person who's
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  Speaker 3: been targeted. We know that that will extinguish bullying faster
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  Speaker 3: than an adult saying anything, and is much more likely
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  Speaker 3: to have a sustained effect because they're not getting the
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  Speaker 3: popularity response looking for so we can shut it down.
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  Speaker 1: Bullying is about status, right, It's just about me looking
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  Speaker 1: better than somebody else.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, kids, certainly, status is part of it, but it's
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: being popular. I want other kids to be popular. And
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  Speaker 3: when you think I wanted popular, relative other children, and
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  Speaker 3: it's a serious house of cards. And the child who
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  Speaker 3: is bullying knows that. You know, we've interviewed children who
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  Speaker 3: bully regularly. They know that they, in a sense, need
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  Speaker 3: to keep bullying to keep their friends. Use that term
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  Speaker 3: loosely around them because perhaps the friends are so afraid
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  Speaker 3: that if they step away, they will be targeted next. So, yes,
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  Speaker 3: its status is part of it.
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  Speaker 1: Difference between being popular and being liked sort of stands
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  Speaker 1: out to me.
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  Speaker 3: There.
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  Speaker 1: You can be very popular, but it's on a flimsy foundation.
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  Speaker 1: Being liked means you've got people who actually care for
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  Speaker 1: you and are interested in you. Donna, you've highlighted the
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  Speaker 1: importance of witnesses bystanders. Somebody who says, hey, old and
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: sit beside you. Someone who says, can I have what
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  Speaker 1: you've got in your lunchbox tomorrow? So that we've both
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: got sticky lunchboxes.
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  Speaker 2: Or whatever it is.
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  Speaker 1: What other protective factors would reduce the likelihood prevent children
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: young people from being bullied.
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  Speaker 3: And probably the most protective factor is your relationships with
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  Speaker 3: other young people. So I've already mentioned that a lonely
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  Speaker 3: child sadly is a target. So from a parent's perspective,
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  Speaker 3: you know social architecture enabling your kids to make multiple
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: friendship groups, and that multiple friendship groups is really important.
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  Speaker 3: That I don't just have one very best friend, because
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  Speaker 3: that makes me quite vulnerable because that friendship move school,
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  Speaker 3: They'll be sick a day at school, then I'm suddenly
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  Speaker 3: a lonely child. So in independent schools, for example, we
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: see children can sometimes join that school in kindergarten non
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: government schools and stay with that same group of friends
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  Speaker 3: right way through to the end of school, without ever
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: having the ability to learn how to make friends. They
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: just can be around that same cohort. So it's important
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  Speaker 3: that your children have practice in how to make friends,
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  Speaker 3: how to walk up to somebody they don't know, start
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: a conversations, find something similar to chat about, or do
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  Speaker 3: something with them. So a very important protective factor is
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: how to make friends, and how to make friends that
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: are reciprocated identifying people who have something in common. Other
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: protective factors are things like being in a school environment
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  Speaker 3: that has a really clear ethos around how we treat
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: each other. A focus on kindness and what that looks like.
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  Speaker 3: Caring for each other helps to build empathy. I'm very
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: protective if I'm an empathetic person because I'm less likely
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  Speaker 3: to bully knowing that it could hurt somebody else. So
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: building that quality is important as well. Other protective factors
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  Speaker 3: in addition to being around peers factors in our environment.
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  Speaker 3: So a school structure can facilitate or prevent bullying by
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: the way that it's designed. So think about seating in
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: a school. If there's only five seats, five children will
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: sit on those and the rest of the children in
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  Speaker 3: the group have to stand. There's a certain amount of
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: power around that allocation. Or if there's only two basketballs
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: out during the lunchtime break, most basketballs become very powerful
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: in terms of who's holding them. So ensuring that there's
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: enough equipment and the spaces are set up to encourage
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: kids to talk to each other and engage. So we
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: can give about physical environment here. Previously I was talking
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: about the social environment. These things are so critical now
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: for parents. There's lots of protective factors that parents could
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: engage in that I've already hinted at. One is that
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: social architecture, play playdates, inviting over different friends at different
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: times to help build that relationship with your children, helping
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: your children to have different friendship groups. So, for example,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: my children obviously have their friendship group at school, but
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: they also have separate friendship groups where they learn music,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: and they have separate friendship groups where they play football
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: or whatever sports they might engage in. And that's really
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: important to help kids have a good sense of themselves
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: if there's someone who can have lots of friends and
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: friends who are still standing when others start to fall away.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: And then of course online bullying is another issue which
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: you might want to get into shortly, and there's certain
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: things that are very protective, like parent monitoring that keep
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: children safer online and obviously produce the likelihood of being
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: cyber bullyted.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: This has been so comprehensive and so useful, and I
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: feel like we've barely scratched the surface.
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  Speaker 2: Donna.
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  Speaker 1: I know that I said that we would have a
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: short chat because this is a podcast that is for
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: time poor parents, But because it's such an important week,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: because there's so much emphasis being put on no bullying
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: this week, would you mind chatting with me again tomorrow
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: so we can talk about the ubiquity of bullying and
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: what to do if your child is bullied.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: I'm very really happy to do that.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Just thank you, amazing. This has just been so valuable
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and so useful. Tomorrow we continue this conversation with Professor
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Donna Cross about bullying for our No Bullying Week.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I can't wait. I can't wait to find out what
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: we're going.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: To talk about tomorrow and how we can respond when
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: our children are being bullied. I've been through it with
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: a couple of my kids. It's just torture as a
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: parent when you think you're doing everything right. You've got
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: all the protective factors in place, the school's telling you
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: all the right stuff, and it's still not working. So
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: we'll unpack that tomorrow on the podcast.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Podcast is produced by Justin Ruhland from Bridge Media. Mim
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Hammond's supports with admin and research help. If you'd like
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: more info and more resources, we will link to a
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: whole range of Donna's me cereal and a whole lot
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: more about how to deal with and respond to bullying,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: and you can also visit happyfamilies dot com dot au