Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Ep. 675 - Versatile Breeds vs. Retrievers for Hunters

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Ep. 675 - Versatile Breeds vs. Retrievers for Hunters · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• Nathan Ratchford: Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I am your host today, Nathan Ratchford. Today, we're going to be talking about versatile breeds with our ongoing coverage of Sporting Dog Month. Today, we have joining remotely, Kat and Ethan Pippitt of Standing Stone Kennels. We're super excited to have them on. Welcome, Kat and Ethan. Kat Pippitt: Thanks for having us. Nathan Ratchford: Absolutely. Yeah. Very excited to have you guys on talking versatile breeds. It's a not commonly discussed subject among waterfowl hunters, but it's something that I've seen plenty. So before we dive in, let's get a little bit of background on you guys. Where's home? Where are you from? What led you into dogs? Kat Pippitt: Well, we're from Kansas, uh, just outside of a small little town called Pretty Prairie. And I'm from North Dakota originally, and Ethan is kind of from all over the Midwest. Ethan Pippitt: Yeah, Midwest, upper Midwest. I've been moving around a little bit. Kat Pippitt: lived in Minnesota for a while, and then down to Kansas. And this is where we've been since 2012. So Kansas is pretty much home for us now. And getting into dogs, I had just pet dogs growing up, no hunting dogs. And I think the same is kind of Ethan Pippitt: Yeah, about the same. We had an American Cocker Spaniel and she was not well trained. Let's go with that. Kat Pippitt: Yeah. And so when we got married, we both enjoyed hunting, but we didn't have a dog. So we decided, let's try our hand at a short hair puppy. We kind of did some research, got some recommendations on a breed for what we were looking for. And so we picked a puppy out of the newspaper, which maybe isn't the way that we would recommend doing it now, but that's how we got our start in dogs and short hairs. Nathan Ratchford: Awesome. What was it about the short hair that made you stick with them? Ethan Pippitt: Um, it's, it's a couple of different things. First of all, when we moved into the zone of training, basically, uh, we got our first dog and I kind of had the mentality and have for most of my life that anything I want to do, if I study or work hard enough at it, I can, I can do it. So I decided that I was going to train this dog and very quickly learned that I had no idea what I was doing. And as we reached out to. different professionals, that actually ended up becoming a job. I took a job as a kennel attendant and started working at the facility. Also there, they bred shorthairs, but at the same time, the majority of dogs that came through, we got everything, all of the different versatile breeds and retrievers. But in the pointing dog world, which is a big part of where we wanted to stay, the very consistently, no matter where the short hair came from, it was pretty good. Where there are good dogs in every breed, and you'll hear me say that on more than once on this podcast, but there are definitely more good dogs in specific breeds. And short hairs kind of fell into that category of typically mentally stable and had the ability to do the thing. So I kind of lean toward let's not make this process harder and stick with these dogs that have lots of drive and desire and they're pretty too and flash and class and all of those things wrapped into one. Nathan Ratchford: I'm sure you guys are familiar with that old saying, life's too short to hunt behind an ugly dog, right? They certainly are striking. What were you looking for in a hunting dog at the time? And how did short hares kind of fill that need? Ethan Pippitt: Well, I know this is the Ducks Unlimited podcast, but we lean more in the upland hunting category than we do in the waterfowl set of things, though we get some opportunities and do use our dogs for the waterfowl set of things. I've seen plenty of videos. Well, yes. And we are looking for, though, bird dogs first. That is our primary focus. Kat Pippitt: I was from North Dakota, hunted tons of pheasants growing up with my dad and a couple of his buddies. The only dog I ever hunted behind was a lab when we upland hunted. And from waterfowl hunting, we did not have a dog and that made upland waterfowl hunting less enjoyable for me because you always got wet trying to retrieve your own ducks. And so For me, we didn't really have the experience growing up of utilizing a dog for waterfall hunting, just the upland side of things. And when we were married and got our first short hair, we were up in North Dakota, Minnesota area. So a lot of upland hunting still was kind of our main focus. Nathan Ratchford: At what point, as you guys started working with dogs, did you establish Standing Stone Kennels? And tell us a little bit about what you guys do there. Kat Pippitt: So, Standing Stone Kennels came around after we gained some experience with dogs and training and breeding because I don't feel like you really can go out and figure it out on your own without some experience. So, in 2012 was really when Standing Stone Kennels started. That's when we established our business. And leading up to that, we got our first short hair in 2009. So, we had about three years of experience in training and breeding and short hairs and kind of taking care of dogs. The health and the well-being of the dogs being a number one priority for us when it comes to how we run our kennel. And you need to know how to care for dogs appropriately, as well as get the training that you're telling everyone you can do, get it done. Ethan Pippitt: Yeah, and here at the kennel as a whole, we're set up a little bit different, and this is something we like to tell people on a regular basis because I don't think it's common knowledge. We train family-oriented hunting companions, and for most people, they fall in that order. Our program is based around that. It is a kennel. We do have kennel runs. Each dog gets their own dog bed, but we maintain potty training while they're with us, which is a very difficult task. It's an insanely labor-intensive process. So dogs go out starting six o'clock in the morning, ending at 10 o'clock at night, every approximately two hours, plus their standard training sessions, whether that's field work or obedience work or whatever it may be. And during that time period, they're expected to listen and be quiet. And anything you would expect out of a dog in your own house is close as we can make it. You know, the kennel is climate controlled and But our goal is that every dog has the opportunity to go outside to go to the bathroom so they don't have to go in their space. And in that process, we then put… We have an amazing team that helps to take care of all these things, but we put a big emphasis on obedience work so that when dogs leave, they are good citizens and good family members, but then they do have the ability to hunt to whatever that capacity is the individual is looking for. Nathan Ratchford: So do you guys train dogs then? What type of breeds do you see through training? Primarily bird dogs or… I know I followed along with… And talk a little bit about some of the online, your YouTube training and all that type of stuff. I've followed quite a few and I know that you had a British Lab too as well. So talk a little bit about the breeds and some of those programs you guys have going on. Kat Pippitt: Well, we train all breeds here at the kennel. I would say that the vast majority of dogs we do get in for training are shorthairs, not only from our breeding program, which does make up a lot of our training. The puppies come back for training when they get older, but also shorthairs that aren't from our breeding program. And then another variety, a mix of those versatile breeds, as well as non-versatile breeds. We get lots of retrievers. And then a sprinkling of obedience-only dogs. And sometimes those obedience-only dogs that aren't going to be here for any hunting goals are still people's versatile dogs. We still get shorthairs that are here just for obedience training, labs that are here for just obedience training, as well as we get an assortment of other breeds, some shepherds and things like that, that are here for obedience-only training. Ethan Pippitt: Yeah, and I would say on site training wise, we are primarily in the versatile dog category driven by short hairs. Online though, it's probably closer to a 50-50 split. Our, I don't pretend to be a world renowned retriever trainer. I'm actually nowhere near one, but the, um, the basics I can help people with. So usually that first year, uh, working through how to develop and build drive and marking and the basic introduction to hand signals, that's where I can take people. And then we actually have, uh, a really good buddy. I don't know if you guys are familiar with lone duck outfitters with Bob Owens. Um, But I've worked a lot with him and honestly, it's where I've learned a majority of our retrieving work from and that would be Who I point people to once they get past the the once they want the training wheels off We we move on to big boy stuff over there with Bob for the retriever world. So Very cool. Yeah. Kat Pippitt: Online, we have our online training courses too. So not just our YouTube channel, but it basically takes you from an eight week old puppy to a year old dog that's ready to hunt. And we have a versatile dog version of that as well as the retriever version of that. And Though a lot of the basics and obedience and socialization is very similar, so you'll see similarities when you're developing just the normal behaviors of your puppy, then it starts to diverge as far as the hunting training goes. So that's why we have those two separate courses. And in the retriever course, we also include not just the labs that we've worked with, but also the English cockers that we work with as well. Nathan Ratchford: That's awesome. Are you guys involved in any testing? Kat Pippitt: From the retriever side of things or? Nathan Ratchford: For versatile breeds. Kat Pippitt: Oh, yes. For versatile breeds, we do both AKC hunt tests and Novda hunt tests primarily. Not so much with the retriever side of things. That's like Ethan said, we hand that off to somebody else if we're looking at that. Nathan Ratchford: So run our audience through what Novda stands for and what is kind of involved in Novda testing on a 30,000 foot view. Kat Pippitt: Okay. NAVDA is the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association. It's for versatile breeds. That's breeds that both point and retrieve, swim for retrieves as well. So that would be breeds like German Shorthairs, German Wirehairs, Griffons, Vichlas, Weimaraners, Brachfrançais, Brachoitalianos, the list goes on. But you can look up a whole list of the versatile breeds that are in the NAVDA database. And they have different levels of testing. They have a natural ability level of testing, which is, in essence, a puppy test, has to be run before they're 16 months old. And we're looking at their field work. So can they point birds? Are they not gun-shy? And then we're looking at some water love. Will they make retrieves out of the water? And then we also look at some nose work from a tracking standpoint. How well do they track a running bird? So that's the basic puppy natural ability test. Recently, NAVDA this year just switched from the UPT test to the gundog test, which is kind of a mid-level test. It's really for dogs between the natural ability test and the next level, which is the utility test. And named appropriately as a gundog test, it's really for dogs that are being trained to be hunting dogs. So there's a field portion as well as water retrieving portion, some obedience is in there from a steadiness standpoint, healing. And then the next level up is utility testing, which has a higher level of expectation as far as steadiness goes, how polished retrieves need to look, the level of obedience we're looking at, and then a dog that qualifies with a prize one at the utility can be invited to the NAVDA Invitational, and that is held once a year. And then if a dog passes that test, they become a versatile champion. So that's kind of the four stages of the testing that we do through NAVDA. And then AKC, we primarily look at the AKC hunt tests. So we're not doing field trials through AKC. So both AKC and NAVDA that we do is competing against a standard. So there is certain criteria that you have to meet to get a score. And if you get that score, you get a certain prize or you get a pass for a senior or master or junior hunter level test. We're not competing against other dogs at these tests. We're just competing against the standard. And then AKC has just field stuff, so it's not the versatile side of things for what we're doing. And that's the junior hunter, senior hunter, and master hunter level testing. Nathan Ratchford: That is really interesting. I didn't know that there was a new test introduced. Just this year. It just rolled out this year, yes. Kat Pippitt: So it's replacing the utility preparatory test. So they removed a few things that were a very slight difference from the utility level testing to make it a more even stepping stone between the natural ability test and the utility test. So it's, you finish natural ability, well, what's the next step? Gun dog. Then what's the next step? Utility. Not, oh, we're not quite ready for utility, so let's just try UPT. It was to make it a more even spacing of the abilities of those tests. Ethan Pippitt: I feel like the UPT or Utility Preparatory Test, excuse me, it had too close of an expectation in a lot of the parts to utility. And it's like, well, we're close enough. We might as well just be skipping this step and moving on to the next one. So I think this is a drastically closer middle ground between the two. But one of the big things that I would say for people we hear a lot is, I don't care about tests. I don't care about titles. I just want a hunting dog. And I think that's where a lot of folks are missing the bar. These tests are really good examples of pieces that will ultimately put your dog at a next level from a hunting standpoint. And it gives you something to work toward, kind of a true goal to push toward instead of, what are we doing this off season? Well, we're just going to, we're going to do some training. Well, what exactly are we training? And when you have the steps of the individual tests, whether that be gun dog or utility, you have pieces to work for and goals. And even if you fall short, of prizing, or you fall short of a prize one, being the highest level of achievement, you have a really nice dog. And that's ultimately going to change the level of dog that you're taking hunting in the fall. Nathan Ratchford: And it's a great way for puppy buyers to also select a breeding, right? I mean, NAVDA has its own registry. Is that right? Kat Pippitt: They do have their own registry and database that you can look up test results for parentage. So if you're looking at a dog from a versatile standpoint, and you want to see how their parents performed, you can look up each of those dogs and see, well, how many times did it run a utility test? What was its scores in each of the categories? How many times did it go to the invitational, things like that. So you get some real world data, which is great to look at. We always say any dog that has a prize utility, whether it's a one, two, or three, that's a heck of a dog. That's a dog that has been able to meet these standards at these levels, which is a very obedient hunting dog from both the upland and waterfall side of things. Nathan Ratchford: And it's an objective evaluation too, right, of that dog's true versatility, right? Because what is a versatile dog? People associate it with breeds, but a lot of these dogs, short hairs included, they might be used in you know, bird hunting specific trials, right? Versus NAVDA being that objective evaluation of a dog's ability to not only point, but also retrieve, right? Absolutely. Ethan Pippitt: It's an interesting balance. And what you said hits the nail on the head. There are non-versatile, quote unquote, versatile breeds. And there are short hares that that won't even retrieve their bread more for the field tries. Exactly what you're saying. When we look at versatility, the way that I try and kind of explain this is as a needle that would move back and forth. One side, you have 100% pointing dog. The other side, you have a 100% retriever, no pointing ability at all. And that 50-50 split basically is what we're looking for from a true versatile dog. It has a good balance of can point birds and can retrieve. Now, when we specifically are breeding, and we tell people this on a regular basis, I try and still shade our needle toward the bird dog side just a little bit, because as you move more, and this happens in versatile breedings and dogs that excel at that NAVDA game, tend to shift theirs more toward the retrieving side a little bit. when you go too far toward retrieving for us, you lose some of that natural pointing and backing instinct. And I would rather have dogs that are natural pointing and backing and maybe just, and we're talking shading, splitting hairs here, but still shading toward that bird dog side of things so that we don't lose specifically natural backing instinct. I mean, that's one that is taught better in the whelping box, if you will. Nathan Ratchford: That's a really interesting point there. Something that I hadn't really thought about a lot, but the dogs anticipating the retrieve after the shot, they're going to probably creep a little bit on point or be less inclined to hold a steady point because they're so focused on the retrieve after the fact. And the flip side of that, like you pointed out, is a dog that all they care about is the point, and they'll just stand there for a minute, and they don't care about anything after the shot, right? That's a really interesting, like you said, a fine line there. Kat Pippitt: It is a fine line, and that is something that people talk to us all the time when they call talking about puppies and what they're looking for, and they're like, well, I want my dog to retrieve it. Well, that's not a problem from our breeding program. All of our dogs are going to retrieve very naturally. And sometimes that shocks people that the shorthairs are going to retrieve really well. They're like, oh, I thought they'd just be a pointing dog. Well, no, they can do both. Specifically, our breeding program is geared for them to do both, both pointing and retrieving. Nathan Ratchford: Talk a little bit about the different tests within the NAVDA testing program at large. From puppy, they're just evaluating desire to go in the water, right? Is that essentially it? Kat Pippitt: Correct. There's no actual retrieving being scored. We do utilize bumpers to entice them to get into the water. We're just not expecting them to hop on in and swim for nothing, but they don't have to make that retrieve. If they swim out to the bumper, leave it, come back to the shore, and do it again, we're good. That's going to receive the highest score. You don't have to make the retrieve, and a dog that retrieves it and then runs around and plays keep away can still not receive the highest score because they're lacking some cooperation there. So the retrieve is not necessary in the natural ability test at all. Nathan Ratchford: But there is a level, like you have to have water desire, right? The dog must- They have to swim. So from the beginning, they're evaluating a puppy's desire to enter the water, right? Correct. And for the new gundog test, what are they evaluating there on the water portion? Kat Pippitt: So they aren't doing a duck search anymore, which is part of the utility test and was part of the UPT test as well. And the steadiness by the blind sequence is just very similar to the UPT level testing again, where they aren't expected to remain by the blind without the presence of the handler. It's pretty simplified where they're standing steady or sitting steady next to the blind. A mark is thrown, a duck, and it's shot. And the dog has to stay steady until released to make that retrieve, but it's straight out to that mark and straight back. And the expectation is for them to swim and retrieve that duck. And there's a healing portion in that test. So once you get out of the natural ability level testing in NAVDA, we're looking at also obedience being scored for both the gundog and the utility test. Ethan Pippitt: One kind of misconception I think that people get, and it's rightfully so, the name says natural ability. Well, it is evaluating natural ability, but there needs to be exposure there. Because sometimes we've heard of people that just say, well, it's natural ability. We'll just show up and see how they do. And you need less training, more exposure at that point. It's like, have you been introduced to all of these things? Nathan Ratchford: Yes. Ethan Pippitt: Dogs with more natural ability are going to excel. Dogs with less maybe need a little more preparation. Nathan Ratchford: And for the utility test, run us through what's evaluated in the water there. You said there's a duck search? Kat Pippitt: Yeah, and so the duck search is without a mark. There is a duck out in a marsh, swampy area where a dog has to swim and search cover, and then the handler just shoots off into the distance. Like there's a duck down there and the dog didn't see it, and then you send the dog to independently search that area. And what the judging team is looking for is a dog that continues to search, but expand their search. We're not just searching the same small area over and over and over. Well, if the duck's not there, move on. move on to the next area of cover, push on, keep looking. If they do find the duck, the expectation is that they find and catch the duck. Sometimes they find the duck and the duck will dive on them and they can't recover it. And we do try and dispatch those ducks so that they can make the retrieve in those situations. But if they do catch that duck, it has to be retrieved to hand in that situation. Um, if they, if they leave it out there, that's not a good thing. Um, and then there's the, uh, steadiness by blind sequence as well, except it's to a little bit different level where the dog has to stay steady by the blind without the handler present. So the handler will leave this, leave the dog in the blind. Uh, there'll be remote gunfire happening, uh, distraction gunfire, if you will. So there's the excitement of gunfire, the dog expects there's retrieves happening, but they have to stand steady by that blind. You come back, then that piece is basically like the gun dog test where there's a mark and then a shot and then the dog makes the retrieve after being sent. Ethan Pippitt: I think some of the bigger misconceptions on that duck search portion is what the actual expectation is. And there is some magic numbers thrown around like, oh, the dog just has to swim around for 10 minutes. That's the magic number that people have applied because it is in the zone of they evaluate for approximately 10 minutes. And that could be a little less or a little more depending on what the dog's doing. Um, they are looking at the dog's ability. So if people are planning to train and develop dogs for this event, they're looking at the dog's ability to explore cover and expand on what is available. So as long as your dog continues to expand, checking new areas, not overlooking the same place again and again, um, they will be doing well. And if not, then we need to find ways to kind of help them to. Kat Pippitt: And they're expected to do it independently, which is one of the big things. We're not giving them hand signals. We're not trying to cast them or tell them where to go. Once you tell them to fetch, no more talking. They go out, they search independently, they expand their search. And also, a duck chase is not a duck search. That's something that gets misconstrued a little bit. If the dog gets on a duck and is actively visually chasing that duck, it's no longer searching, it's on a chase. So, if that duck gets caught, it needs to be retrieved. And if that happened in the first, you know, two minutes of their duck search, there's going to be a resend where we want to see more of that dog's search after the completion of that retrieve. Or if they lose that duck and it disappears on them, we're going to want to see more searching after the fact. Ethan Pippitt: Now, we've got kind of a fun story with this. So, we're part of a ranch operation in South Texas, and I would say a majority of our duck hunting, just based on where we are that time of year, does happen in the South. I've got some buddies in Texas, and then the ranch in South Texas. So, the water, and this is one of the things that we'll talk about with Versatile Ducks, but the water is warmer. it makes it a little easier on a shorter coated dog. But we had the opportunity for a morning duck hunt and brought Nyx, one of our foundation males, who is a lovingly, we'll say, two-time invitational flunky. Couldn't quite do it. But a really strong utility dog and what he kind of excelled at was naturally duck searching and the ability to expand a marsh and find every duck that is there. So we're hunting, we've dropped a couple. The guy that's there with me is like, aren't you going to send that dog to go pick those ducks up? Well, they're dead and there's birds still flying. or you know whatever we'll get to them well a couple of them floated off and he's like see now we're not going to find any of these you know it's just and uh nix literally searched the entire marsh and picked up not only all of the dead ducks but some of the cripples that did get away and everything else so it was kind of a fun thing to show Not only can they expand and search marshes and find ducks, but they can do it without any handling. So, it was quiet. We just sat there and chatted, and then here comes Nix with another duck, and then sent him off again. And so, there's definitely a place for both types, but it was kind of a fun morning to show off what that versatile dog-duck search looks like, and what a good one can really do in the blind. Kat Pippitt: And how it truly applies to a hunting scenario. You know, we're doing these tests that are set up situations, set up scenarios, but they do truly apply to real world hunting situations. Nathan Ratchford: And I've always felt that that's where versatile breeds really excel is in a cripple situation. You wound a duck and you have no idea where it went to. Just being able to send your dog and let it independently search the area that you're not sure where to direct them to or cast them to. I've always felt that's really a strong suit of the versatile breeds. Let's talk a little bit about that. There's obvious commonality, right? Expectations on steadiness in the blind where it's the same for retrievers. But let's talk a little bit, dive a little deeper in there on the differences, right? A versatile breed, you're more search-oriented, right? Are you still able to handle them in a traditional retriever way? Talk a little bit about that. Ethan Pippitt: So, how we typically break the two down or the way that we're trying to explain it would be, versatile dogs are independent creatures and independent by breeding, by nature, where retrievers are bred to be dependent. And if you have a versatile dog, short haired specifically, we'll say, is if they are dependent and they're constantly looking to you in the field and they aren't doing their job. So when you get the two of them, that's going to be the biggest division between retrievers and personal logs that I can see is one wants to do its own thing and is bred to do its own thing. And the other one is more bred, not that they're a hundred percent cooperative, but they're more bred to look to you for direction. when you start to apply, let's say, hand signals or some form of direction to versatile dogs, you get a lot of pushback. Like, I sent you that way and I'm like, well, I kind of want to go this way because my nose is telling me to go do this or that's just where my brain's at. And so you do see a lot of Not all. There are exceptions to every rule. There are versatile dogs that can be handled to everything and do that. But the majority, they're going to fight that direction. What they can learn really well is Um, they're good at marking and they're even better at marking and then searching an area and expanding that search until they find what they want. If their mark was off just a little bit, but, um, they're also good at taking a line or a general direction and then coming back with something. So, um, if you take that approach to the versatile dog, I'm going to teach you and build confidence in some lining drills or some basic casts, like go left or go right. not much or go back, but not much more than that. You're you're going to be pretty happy, I think, ultimately, if you want to be able to fine tune that cast into having them step on right where you know where it is. A retriever is the way to go. And they they are different. We've had lots of conversations about this, but they're different in how they think. Kat Pippitt: And in general, I think attitude wise, you could potentially with the right short hair, get to the point where you could handle them out until they step right on it. But without the right dog for that, our short hairs in general are going to get sour to that kind of training. They're, they're going to not enjoy it. They're going to get bored with it. Um, and they're going to want to break down and search and they're going to want to use their nose and they're going to want to independently find what they know is out there. Ethan Pippitt: And every time you stop and handle them, you can see frustration build with the average dog. It's like, no, you said, go this way. I'm going this way. I'm using my nose to do the rest. And as you start to incorporate exactly what Kat said, they get sour to the process. So if your goal is, let's add some of these hand signals, they just have to be very small pieces of introduction. Like we'll do two or three reps and then we're going to move on to something else. If you train in small steps, usually you can still get, you can get close. Nathan Ratchford: And not, to your point, not that they, you know, the right individual can't do it, right? I mean, I saw someone recently who brought a wire here through the grand, you know? Absolutely. Not that it's not achievable, but it's probably would be like taking a lab out and teaching it how to independently search, right? You can probably do it. Let's not get into that. But it's one of those things where with enough exposure and working through it, you could probably make it do it, but it's still just not what it's really bred to do, right? I mean, it's not… It would be way more effective taking the search approach because that has utility as well, obviously. Ethan Pippitt: We were talking about the online training and help that we give people right now. Speaking of taking the wrong dog and using it for the wrong purpose, I have a gentleman right now with a Carolina Dingo, which is just a family slash protection slash, I don't know. There's some level of hurting in there, but I don't really know. They were more Originally designed as just like, I had to look some of this information up, just like village dogs. Primitive breed. Yeah. Yes. And he has got a Carolina Dingo that we're working on developing pointing instinct in. So, and the dog is doing well. So, you take enough time and enough reps and good things, there are exceptions. Let's just go with that. Nathan Ratchford: Very interesting. I'm sure you could teach a border collie to point as well. I mean, they're so close with that hernia instinct, right? With that hesitation. Yeah, that stalking type of, you know, primitive instinct. Kat Pippitt: Which is a very similar thing that our short hair is doing, is they're pointing, stalking until they slow down, until they're completely hesitated and stopped, is what we're looking at. So yes, you can definitely teach off breeds to do things, but it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of reps. And you remember that pit bull? We've had a pit bull as a duck dog. They needed a vest to help them swim with floaties because they didn't swim as well. They like to sink. Nathan Ratchford: Muscular. Kat Pippitt: Yes, but definitely was a duck dog. So you can take off breeds and you can train them. But when we've got hundreds of years of breeding behind some of these breeds and some of these dogs that have been bred for specific purposes, it's a lot easier to pound a round peg into a round hole than a square peg into a round hole. So if you're looking for something specific to hunt behind, whether that's an upland dog, a versatile dog, So, finding a dog that is bred for those purposes is going to get you a lot further a lot faster. Nathan Ratchford: Yep. That being said, who is the right hunter for a versatile breed? Who's the ideal candidate in their priorities and what they hunt to consider a versatile breed? Ethan Pippitt: With this conversation with a lot of folks, I hear a lot, I duck hunt a lot, and I just want something different. I don't want another black lab in the blind. I want something different. And my recommendation for folks is to truly evaluate how much you duck hunt versus how much you upland hunt. And if that is anywhere close to the 50-50 mark, a versatile dog probably is the right breed as long as we're in the right climate. I don't think hunting The Great Lakes in the middle of the winter, ultimately a majority of the versatile dogs, specifically short hares, they are shorter coated and things of that nature. They're probably not cut out for that. You need a Chessie or something like that to withstand that. Outside of those situations, most of the middle of the United States South, even Kansas is kind of becoming a pretty large mecca for the waterfowl side of things. The the climate here is 99% of the time is fine. So if you're The biggest thing that I'd be working against would be too cold of temperatures and at the same time That's a a drive and desire driven thing too. So the dog has enough drive They're going to withstand colder temperatures than a dog with less drive and desire. So I Kat Pippitt: Or at least they're going to push themselves to do it, whether they truly physically can withstand those temperatures without harm to themselves. Some dogs just don't advocate for themselves because they have too much drive and desire to do that. Ethan Pippitt: But if you're in that balance and you do live in quality climates for the situation, Versadog is a great option. If you say, I am a 100% waterfowl hunter and I travel around to do that, and that is my, I'm going to recommend you should probably steer toward a retriever. That is going to ultimately be the better dog for the job. Right. Kat Pippitt: especially if you're not just talking duck hunting, but also goose hunting. Some of these goose hunts, these birds get shot and coast out there 200, 300, 400 yards. We're going to have to go pick up those birds ourselves with a short hair. We have a friend who's got some really nice labs from Bob that we just sit back and watch him handle his dog out there and she picks him up. Rev will be doing that next year. And it's awesome. You get to just sit back and relax and watch the dog do this really cool thing. And our shorthairs won't do that. Nathan Ratchford: And the type of hunting, right? Do you hunt in big groups, right? Where a Labrador might be way more efficient, right? Just back and forth, A to B, back to the blind versus searches sometimes take time, right? I mean, which has value because they might keep hunting for that lost cripple when a lab quits, right? Because it's been bred to just handle. But at the flip side, if you hunt big groups of guys and you're just looking for efficiency, a retriever might be better in that case. And the flip side too, cold climate, one thing that I feel like people don't consider nearly enough, even with wire hares or versatile breeds who have thicker coats is, again, that cold water on a search, that zaps a dog, right? I feel like that's something that people just don't think about, like 10 minutes in cold water. I mean, every second is just zapping them, right? Kat Pippitt: I think that that's a common question is, well, how cold is too cold? And it's so variable dependent that you can't give, well, 10 minutes in the water is too long. Well, temperature of the water, the dog's coats, the dog's level of fat that they're carrying, how long the dog has been dry and warm before the retrieve. So many things play a role in that. Um, but you're very, you're very right that we've even had some of our short hairs doing, you know, utility tests, duck search, and it's cold. It's like a 40 degree day and you just got the luck of the draw and not the best weather for that, that search. And the dog comes out and she didn't want to quit, but she was so zapped, like you said. She had lack of energy for the rest of her test, but she was bristled up. She was shivering uncontrollably, what I would consider the onset of hypothermia. And that was a middle of the summer or season, middle of the testing season test. Ethan Pippitt: Early spring. Kat Pippitt: That she's running, yeah. Not during the middle of actual duck season. So definitely, and she has all the heart to do it, but you would have had to pull her out of the water because she wouldn't quit. Ethan Pippitt: And not that we advocate for dogs being overweight, but carrying a few extra pounds does add insulation in the winter. And versatile dogs, shorters specifically, they struggle to hold that extra weight. Usually you can keep them in a good weight, but putting it on them is difficult. Nathan Ratchford: What is some things that your traditional retriever owner would be surprised to hear about versatile breeds? I think that they can retrieve. Ethan Pippitt: I think that's one of the biggest things that we hear is like, oh, wait a second, these dogs can retrieve, they can swim, they can retrieve. If they're bred right, yeah, they can. So I think that's the biggest thing is people see most of the Versal dogs as pointing dogs only. Nathan Ratchford: That's a great point. I hear that a lot from my friends in the versatile world. They just call it pointer in general. It's just a pointer. But yeah, I've seen plenty of draughts, I've seen plenty of short hairs, and they can do it really well in the water. And some of those duck searches, they're just impressive. I mean, you sit back and you're like, I want to have some popcorn. Send the dog and it's so impressive their desire to find. I mean, cause they're just, it's just search, right? And it's like, they're looking for the wallet out there. There's such urgency. It's, they definitely have a place. Um, well, thank you so much, Kat and Ethan for joining us here. Um, if people want to check you guys out, uh, where should they follow along? Kat Pippitt: They can find us on Instagram, StandingStoneKennels, Facebook as well, and then our YouTube channel would be another great place to, especially if you're looking to train your pup, and that's StandingStoneKennels on the channel as well. Nathan Ratchford: Awesome. Ethan Pippitt: 100%. Nathan Ratchford: Well, thanks for joining us today. I'm your host, Nathan Ratchford. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, and be sure to check out some upcoming sporting dog podcasts all this month. Thank you.