Latest / Ministry X / Confess Your Heresy of Synchronistic Angelology! - Ministry X - 050

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Confess Your Heresy of Synchronistic Angelology! - Ministry X - 050 · Ministry X

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hi, everybody.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's me, Cinderella X. You are listening to the Fringe
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Radio Network. I know I was going to tell them.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Hey, do you have the app?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: It's the best way to listen to the Fringe Radio Network.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: It's safe, and you don't have to log in to
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: and it sounds beautiful. I know I was going to
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: tell them. How do you get the app? Just go
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: to fringeradionetwork.com, right at the top of the page. I know, slippers,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: The latest estimates indicate that between 10-20 to 40 billion
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: stars are estimated to be stars in the Milky Way,
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: where water can exist on the surface.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: A study by Drake, which was published in 1961, by
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: the astronomer Frank Drake, tries to calculate this mathematically. Take
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: the speed of the stars.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Even in the space of the stars. You're listening to
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Ministry X on Fringe Radio Network. Just checking all our
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: whizzers and dingers and bleepers, and we'll get started here momentarily.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Got a new co-host. Some changes, so stay tuned.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Where did it come from?
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Because a godless universe, you.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Kind of have to assume.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: It came from nowhere or it came from some random
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: sequence of events.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: And it's like, okay, but what was the first event that.
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: And why was it the first? Oh, it's eternal? It's like, okay,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: that doesn't really solve the problem. Like, where did all this.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Stuff come from? Why is it here?
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: It doesn't need to be. We can all imagine talking
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: to this. So, yeah, it's, I find the mystery fascinating.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: What I'm getting increasingly frustrated with is the argumentation around
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: this topic.
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: Because it's like, can't we just all agree that this
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: mystery is staggering? Like, It is just, you cannot, it's
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: shocking how staggering the mystery is in this group of
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: people who insist that.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: It's not mysterious. Where does that come from?
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: What if life, even.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: Intelligent life, is common but something else happens next? Something
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: most never survive. The moment a civilization gains the ability
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: to destroy itself, the countdown begins. Nuclear weapons, engineered pandemics,
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: climate systems unraveling, artificial intelligence evolving too quickly, technologies that
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: arrive before the wisdom to wield them, The species becomes
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: capable of reshaping its world.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: This is Ministry X. I am Daniel X, your host.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: And I'm not dead. I basically took the summer off
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: to deal with some personal, family, life stuff.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Working like 60 hours a week.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Chores, sleep. Fringe Radio Network stuff. Basically, it doesn't leave
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: me a lot of time for podcasting. I guess there
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: is God's providence in all the perceived chaos. I really
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: needed time to reflect. I'm getting old. I know. I
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: should not speak these things over my life, as Michael
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Basham would say. Oh, poor me. There's just aren't enough
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: hours in the day. There's just too much to do.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I'm getting old. But seriously, I feel like Michael Basham
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: is speaking directly to me sometimes when I listen to
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Spirit Wars on Fringe Radio Network. Why do you speak
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: these things over your life like it's poison? Why not
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: instead speak the scripture over your life? I mean, I
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: need to learn to be grateful. for the grace that
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the Lord has shown me. I mean, I could have
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: crashed and burned so many times, so many near disasters
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that I was spared. My research into the Epstein stuff
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: was quickly, by design, overshadowed by so many other news items.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: The podcast I was recording hit a brick wall. So
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: much has happened that's incredibly revelatory. I mean, aren't we
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: glad that we got disclosure finally? But real disclosure has happened.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: We missed it. And I wasn't commenting on disclosure while
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: it was happening. It already happened, and whatever we see
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: now is like the PSYOP. The Nordics, they met with Trump, remember?
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: It's a done deal, and I was not there to
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: help prevent it. Imagine that. Daniel X, the Christian with
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: the UFO podcast, is nowhere to be found with his
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: witty skepticisms. I did get a few emails, so thank you,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: those who emailed me at ministryxatprotonmail.com with your concerns and
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: your encouragement and book suggestions. It's like you reach the
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: door that leads to the next level and not being
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: able to turn the knob to open it, to articulate it,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: to tie it all together, because again, the apparent chaos
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: externally was actually part of God's providence. And the Holy
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Spirit was and is attempting, despite my hesitation, to guide
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: my steps. I wrote a song called Hesitation. But I
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: have emerged from the hermit cave and I'm ready to
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: relaunch this ministry activity. It's like confirmation. Your worldview is
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: both confirmed, but certain parts were incorrect. We are in
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: a spiritual war, and the end times are here. And
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: it's been the end times since the crucifixion. Which means
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: we're actually in the thick of it now. And I
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: believe evil will be exposed. Lies will be exposed. They
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: are being exposed. Also, the futility of the political process.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: It is still a ministry to the Xers, the Gen Xers,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: but also the truthers and the seekers of all generations.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: X in my usage is the cross. It's also where
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: we divide history. It is the crossroads. Is it the unknown?
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Is it the unknowable? The other, the mystic, the mysterious? Yeah,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: it's all that. Because I critique... myself. And many, many
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: times I've thought I should change the name of the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: podcast because I'm just a guy speculating and throwing ideas around.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I'm a believer, but it's not really a ministry. It's
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: a podcast. And that's all I want to be responsible for.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't really work that way.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: Okay. Uh, Luke 12.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: 48 to whom much is given, much is required. So
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: when the spirit tells me, well, make it a ministry,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: expand it, talk more about me. It's Jesus. Talk about
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: the gospel. Uh, But I'm explaining to everyone that the
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: world is a waste of time, God. I'm showing them
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: how everything's a hoax. No, my son. I have revealed
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the corruption and the depravity of man. The people need
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: to hear the solution, in other words. Okay, the devil
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: is definitely pulling the strings here. of religion, government, finance, entertainment, technology.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: He's the king of this world. Okay, so to me,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: that's a sensible analysis. With Epstein files, UFO files, Project Stargate,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: MKUltra files, just a small sampling of this material. How
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: can you not come to the conclusion that we live
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: in a fallen world? This may have been what happened
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: to Atlantis. When we reach peak civilization, destruction follows. It's
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the big arc of human existence. Cain is expelled because
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: our nature changed. He went to establish cities, him and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: his offsprings. It's urbanization. And then we get Babel. Leads
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: to towers. What is worshipped in towers? And the stark
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: reality is that America was never built on a solid rock.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: America was never strictly a Christian nation. Washington, D.C. was
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: laid out with occult Masonic geometry. You can't make it
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: great again. You can make it better. You can heal it.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Make America just okay again. I mean, I'm okay with
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: make America decent again. We're not getting great again because
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: we can't. Or we could, but we won't. But I
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: don't mean to get all political, but just to illustrate
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: a point, it's a big, fat, black pill. And it's
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: super depressing. But it also becomes a call to action.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: My focus shifts to, oh my God, I'm not prepared.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: My family is vulnerable. Not over material things, but spiritually.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: They're not spiritually prepared. Because my focus has been wrong.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: It's remarkably like one would describe a bad spirit. You
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: realize you're being led by a bad spirit. Cynicism is
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: a bad spirit. Anger is a bad spirit. And anxiety
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: is sinful. Sinful. And it just becomes apparent Jesus is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: absolutely required. And in that moment of revelation, confirmation that yes,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: we live in a supernatural world, people are led around
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: by lying spirits and voices in their heads, listening with
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: itching ears, going with the scriptural interpretation that allows them
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to excuse their sin. The Holy Spirit constantly day and night.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Why are you not in my church? Oh, well, because
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: I've been out here on the fringe wondering if grays
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: are actually bioengineered humans and I need to figure out
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: if this is watcher technology. Are women using watcher technology?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: When they put on makeup and get on Instagram or TikTok.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes God will trigger a nervous breakdown to
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: snap you out of it. And it becomes a good thing.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: How can it be a good thing? Bad things happening
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: are always an opportunity to turn back to God. And
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: ultimately it goes back to just my rebelliousness and pride.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Like God is standing at the threshold to the portal,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: the jump point. But you're like, can I just get
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: some chili cheese fries before we go? Jesus, I'm really hungry.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I can't help it. It's a biology thing. My blood sugar.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: You created me this way. And Jesus is just like
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: my people, my people of little faith. Right?
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Excuses.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I'm too old. I don't have the energy.
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Those are my excuses. And also, okay, you figured out
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: all the secrets of the universe.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: So what now?
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: What are you going to do?
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: A silly podcast with some Bible verses? Does it really
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: help anyone? Or are you going to step it up
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: for your family? Stop getting distracted by all the white
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: rabbits and come back to me. Repent and be in
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: communion with me and my church. So I needed to
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: create some balance and That involved reworking the format of
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the podcast. And luckily, I'm not without help. My bro
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: in Christ, Trevor Lohman, will be coming aboard as co-host.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: That's right. And I have him standing by. And he'll
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: be joining us shortly. But our areas of research have
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: been strangely running parallel. I really enjoyed listening to a
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: lot of the God's Eye View podcast on Fringe Radio Network, fringeradionetwork.com.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: And I've got his book, and it's just been very
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: edifying following Trevor's spiritual journey. So it just seemed natural
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: to bring him aboard. And so I'll show him all
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the controls here, and we can co-pilot this thing. So
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Trevor can bring topics. I will continue to bring topics
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: and news items, but it will thankfully be less of
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: me rambling and ranting. And we will share the task
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: of research and watching clips and stuff. As you may
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: have deduced from the intro, we're going to be talking
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: about the Fermi Paradox, which is something that Trevor covered,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: and the Drake Equation, and... How does a Christian sort
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of interpret this? Let's see if we can contact Trevor.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: So whenever we do this, we've got to get a
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: parallax orbit here.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: Daniel.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Ah, I had to solve this ridiculous captcha.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Verify that you are a human.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: It's so stupid. It is especially funny nowadays when AI
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: could probably pretty easily solve a captcha.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, does that really prove I'm a human? Isn't it
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: weird that we have to, we have a robot basically
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: asking us to verify that we're human.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Yes. Prove it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: My wife is like, uh, I guess there's a premiere
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: season premiere of one of her shows on tonight.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, nice.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: She's baiting me like, well, if you finish up in time, uh,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: We might be able to watch this together.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Well, let's do it quick then, man. Come on.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I'm going to fall asleep to it anyways.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: What show is it?
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Chicago Fire.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Chicago Fire.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: So there's like a trio of shows that it's all
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: produced by the same people. And I think it's the
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: same people that do like Law and Order, like SVU
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: and stuff.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Right, right, right.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: But this takes place in Chicago, not New York. And
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: so there's a series about the fire department, the police department,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and the hospital. And then they come together and do
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: these crossover shows and stuff from time to time. She's
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: really into it.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: Nice.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a nice filler for me to fall
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: asleep to.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: That's what it would be for me as well. Well,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: I'll follow your lead, man.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I'm a few episodes behind where you're at.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: Okay. On my show? Yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: So, you know, we've been emailing back and forth and
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: you had said something to the effect of like, you're
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: an echo from my past because I'm talking about stuff
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you're talking about like, you know, two weeks ago or
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: three weeks ago or something. And so I'm trying to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: get caught up. We did the episode about the bicameral mind.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And I mean, most of the topics you cover lately,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: at least, have been centering around the consciousness discussion and
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: So you, I mean, classically, classically, the way I've done
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: episodes is I kind of have a convergence point of
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: seemingly unrelated things, or maybe not exactly the same thing,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: but there's some sort of connection there that I like
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: to draw out. So I've been thinking about the bicameral mind.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: And I thought that, you know, when we did our interview,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I was like not prepared really to offer.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: It's a wild topic.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And, I didn't really digest it until
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: after the show was over. And then I was like, oh, well,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: this makes me think about this and this makes me
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: think about this. And so hopefully I didn't let anybody down,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: you know, who was expecting some great insights on that.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: But it was an interesting clip. But I felt like
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I need to like read this book or kind of
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: research the author, the original material. So I did a
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: little bit of that. Oh, really? Okay.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to learn that. I was going to say,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: it'd be quite bizarre for you to just appear with
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: some knowledge of the bicameral mind. So you looked into the,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: into the, is it, it's Jane's, right? Jane's. Yeah.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I did. I didn't buy the book. I listened to
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: an interview that he did like back in 1983 or something, uh,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: about this. And, um, Yeah, it turns out either I
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: have a bicameral mind or I'm schizophrenic, apparently, because there's some... Oh, nice.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: He was drawing out the comparisons. He's like, well, some
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: of you today might hear voices. But I was thinking,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: because I don't know if you recall exactly, but he
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: offers sort of a time period where this occurs. And
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it was somewhere around, I want to say like between
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: 2000 and 1500 AD. BC, his main evidence was the
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: change in literature. Before the shift, or what does he
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: call it, the collapse of the bicameral mind, which occurred
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: like at the late, I guess the late Bronze Age,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: is where he places it. And I was like, well,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I understand the idea, and I do see it's obvious,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: sort of the change in the literature between the two
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: time periods. Um, I walked away from that thinking, I don't,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I don't see the biological connection like between the two
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: hemispheres of the brain as a, as a sort of
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: plausible reason for this. So I was trying to think, well,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: it does seem to be sort of a thing. Um,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: there is this sort of change in consciousness or self-consciousness
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: or awareness. Um, or even you could say like, uh,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: individuals asserting their will versus being sort of subject to
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: the will of the voice inside your head.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: You either obey or you disobey to the shift of
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: a more sort of inquisitive, like what's my place in
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the world mindset. And, and Hey, I have, I have feelings,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I have desires, uh, the shift from just being part
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: of the collective, I guess. or have having this sort
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of external hierarchy versus this inner person, this inner self,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: inner worth.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a, sounds like a
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: great definition of consciousness, you know?
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: So then I think, well, if I, if I, if,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: if I'm to interpret this sort of from a Christian perspective,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I'd have to research, is there some sort of tie
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: in with Christ, the incarnation? Um, being the central point
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: in history, we sort of measure history backwards from the
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: incarnation and forwards from the crucifixion. Maybe there was a
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: shift that occurred with that, and I was thinking, well,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: is there any Bible verses or anything? It seems like
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: there is. I mean, maybe it's a little bit of
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: a stretch, but I just thought it was sort of
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: an interesting thing to put side by side with the
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: the bicameral mind.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's a, it's a cool idea. Before we like
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: dive into that, like, can you remind me a little bit,
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: just like what, it sounds like you're probably have a
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: fresher remembrance of this than I might like, what, what
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: was the basic, what was his position? Like, what was
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: he arguing for? I, I know it, my recollection is
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: that he thought ancient people's, pre-Bronze Age peoples were not conscious, basically.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: And that they, rather than having one integrated brain where
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: the hemispheres function together, they actually heard their right hemisphere,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: I guess, speaking to them as if it were God.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Correct, yeah. They were interpreting that voice in their head,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: which was somehow, I don't think he really explains it,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: somehow is communicated to them from the other hemisphere of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: their brain as an audible voice and was interpreted as
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: the voice of God. And then after this Bronze Age collapse,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: that we developed a consciousness, which is, I think what
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: he's really describing is sort of a self-awareness. Because consciousness
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is sort of a very hard thing to comprehend. define
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: or pin down but a self-awareness I think is more
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: what he's getting at even though he uses the word
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: consciousness and somehow this is the result of you know
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: the hemispheres being united yeah I mean.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: There is some interesting stuff where they they basically can
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: they can kind of I think they can kind of
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: show something like this when they split the brain You know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: like when they damaged the corpus callosum. But I do
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: feel like he's really getting quite, like the term we
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: would use would be that he's doing a lot of
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: theory building. You know, like he's just sort of invoking
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: ideas without really proving them, you know?
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's the main criticism that I
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: have with it is there's not a lot of evidence
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: that this actually ever happened. I mean, you can't look
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: at a fossil of a brain. You can't tell what
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: a Bronze Age person, what their brain was like compared
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: to ours. I mean, maybe you'd know more about that
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: than I do, but it seems like an impossible task
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: to ever be able to prove that. I was just
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: going to say, I mean, we know pretty well that
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: brain anatomy hasn't changed much recently. I mean, the anatomically
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: modern human brain is probably like 200,000 years old, so
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: So I don't think his argument is that the brain,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the hemisphere is physically connected. I think it's that for
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, they were functionally independent. Okay.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because it would be crazy. I could be wrong.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: He might be crazy, but it would be crazy to
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: say the corpus callosum, which is the structure that links
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: the two hemispheres, just appeared physically. Like that would be
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: a very non-scientific premise. Right. And it would be taken
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: seriously at all. So I think he's more saying with
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: no evidence that people went from the two hemispheres communicating
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: with each other as like several separate entities into like
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: an integrated human consciousness, which I mean, he's just waving
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: his hands in the air. Like, we don't know. He's probably,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I'm sure he's wrong. I have heard people. Have you
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: ever heard people resonate with this? So I have had
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: people who listened to the episode. Tell me like, I
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: remember I, I used to, um, have like an other
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: me who kind of had ideas that were separate from
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: my own. It's kind of weird. It kind of sounds
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: like possession or something.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: But probably all of us have sort of had some
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: variation of that experience.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, sure. Like the, the thing is like identifying
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: the origin of that voice. Is it your higher self?
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Is it your, you know, what is it? Is it,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: is it audible? I mean, I've never heard an audible
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: voice like as coming from somewhere. I had to like, Whoa,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: who's that? Who's there?
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Right. You know? Right.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Um, it's always like a sort of thinking out loud
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: or hearing like an echo of my voice or something. Um,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: so I don't, I don't know. Was some people saying that,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: that they had like a similar experience and then that
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: faded with age or.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I have heard some people– I mean this
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: is all super anecdotal. But I have heard some people
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: say that this is kind of like a trait of
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: autism in particular where the unification happens like much later
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: in life. But I don't think– I mean I don't
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: think we're saying that they were not conscious. Right, right.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: So it's a little different. My son does this thing
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: all the time where he goes like, Like when he
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: does something wrong or something and I'll be like, why'd
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: you do that? And he's like, it wasn't me. It
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: was my brain. My brain made me do it. And
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: it's as if like, then like the, from your perspective,
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just cute. It's like, well then
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: what are you? Right. It's cool that even at a
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: very young age, a kid would, maybe he saw something
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: on TV.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: But a kid would like distinguish his brain from him.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to do it, but my brain, you know.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: My brain made me.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: That's like the perfect excuse for everything.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Right. It was my brain.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: You have to direct your brain. There are things that
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: happen as a reflex, obviously.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: You know that.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: But most of our action is directed by, yeah, the whatever,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: the spirit, the soul, the person that's inside us.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: This is the debate, right? I mean, I assume most
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: scientists would say, well, no, it is just your brain.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: The pure materialist, rationalist perspective is that there's not really
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: any free will. We're just responding to stimuli in the
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: most productive way that we can, in line with our
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: experiences and the way our brain's been trained. There's not actually...
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: any hope of like changing your ways or anything?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: In my, in my world, I would say that's like
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: the majority opinion by far. Wow. So it is, it
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: is nice to remind myself that that's not the majority opinion,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: you know, it is kind of a bleak way of
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: looking at the world. But although, I mean, you could
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: probably make a statistical argument that that tends to be true,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: you know? And then, and then people would say, well, no, because, um,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: there's an interaction between your genetics and the environment. So
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: one environment could produce a genius savant piano player, but
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: it could also produce a homeless person depending, but then,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: but then it's like, so you're saying DNA is destiny.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: And that seems like problematic from a modern academic view,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: you know, like, like you're just, it's just, you are
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: just your DNA, right? Yeah, that's almost like a eugenics
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: view of the way the world works.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like a Calvinist view because Calvinists believe
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: in predestination. So there's only a select number of people
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: who are going to be saved anyways. So the purpose
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: in life is to figure out if you're one of
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: them or not.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never. That's crazy. That is a rough view.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: I'm not even saying it's wrong, but it's like, oh,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: that would be pretty horrible if that's how it worked.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: but I know, I mean, I know they have arguments
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: for that, right? Like that your name is written down
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: in the book of life and it just is what
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: What are, what are you nowadays? Do you have a,
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: what am I? An ism?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Ooh, I try not to have isms. Um, I try
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: not to label myself. Um, I mean, as far as my,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: my spirituality, my Christian identity, um, that's changed a lot. Um,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I never, I guess I never really, even though I
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: was sort of raised Catholic, I never really considered myself Catholic.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: And then I sort of discovered the Watchmen that kind
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: of came out of the evangelical Protestant, you know, the
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: fringe Christian realm. But I never really thought of myself
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: as a Protestant, in other words.
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I just prefer not to have the titles. So eventually
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: it just became sort of me, my Bible and Jesus. And, uh,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I'm going to figure it out on my own type thing.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, yeah, pretty, pretty common, you know, it is common.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It is common. There's a lot of, especially in the,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: in the fringe realms, there's a lot of unchurched people
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: who just, they're in, they study their Bible, they say
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: their prayers, they, get out in the community and stuff
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: as a representative of Jesus, but they don't actually have
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: a church that they feel they belong to or fit into.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: And that certainly applies to me until recently, because I
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: felt like that's always been the sort of thing that's
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: missing is I don't have a church home. I don't
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: have like a church community. And honestly, you need the
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: support of like fellow brothers and sisters to check you
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: when you're your theology is getting a little wonky or whatever. And, um,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: those people are there to keep you on track and
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: be your, your support system, especially if you're a new
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Christian or in my case, I'm new to Orthodoxy. So, um,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I've been going to Orthodox church here in town, um,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: as a visitor, I haven't, uh, gone through the catechism.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I haven't joined the church officially. I don't, uh, participate
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: in the, in the communion and, and stuff at this point,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I'm just sort of an observer, you know?
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Um, what's that? I, I've got a million questions. What's
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: that been like?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Um, at first it was a little overwhelming. Um, you
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: feel kind of out of place, like you just kind
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: of stand in the back and just smile and, you know,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: be unassuming and, you know, try not to get in
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: the way when the procession comes by.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: And, um, the, I mean, that kind of sounds like
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: it would be like going to a Catholic church. There's
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of ritual that's kind of different. You don't
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: know what to do with yourself. I've had that experience.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: If you're going to compare it to something, it would
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: be most like going to a Catholic church, except you
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: don't sit down, you stand.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: That's kind of cool. There is a division between the
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: altar space where the priests are back there doing their
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: thing and the public space, which is sort of modeled
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: after– The tabernacle, basically.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a division between the inner sanctum and
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the outer court. And it's very liturgical, so it's very ritualistic.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: They have the Eucharist. They believe the Eucharist is the
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: physical body indwelled of Jesus. So when you're participating in
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: the communion, that is the body and blood of Christ,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: just like the Catholics. The only difference is they don't–
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: the pope is not their authority. They reject the papal authority.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: And there's other points of contention.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: But– The filioque is one of them. Yes. I know that.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: That's the only one. So it's a– Do you have–
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: like did you have like a church– experience beforehand like
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: since you've become more sort of independent in your seeking
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: or was it just like childhood you attended catholic church
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: in childhood and then now orthodox church as an adult
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: like did you go to a protestant church i'm sorry.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Yes yeah i have i have been to several yeah
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: several just kind of bouncing around as it's kind of
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: a the byproduct of me moving around a lot first
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: from California to Montana, then Montana to other places in
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Montana and then to Idaho ultimately. So kind of, you know,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: left me without a church and coming up here. Um,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: originally I was like, okay, let me go find a
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: church for, you know, me and my daughter to attend.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: We tried a couple of these non-denominational, um, churches and, um,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Wasn't really satisfied with that. Not really impressed. Not that,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: you know, the church is there to impress me, but, um.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: The, the expression people tend to use to describe non-denominational
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: churches is like, they like to play a lot of
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Jesus is my boyfriend music and have self-help talks. Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: So it's not liturgical. It's not ritual. A lot of them,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: there's not even a cross hanging up, a crucifix or
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: anything like that. It's more like a PowerPoint presentation. It's,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: you know, do our updates and housekeeping and stuff and
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: talk about the potluck on Sunday. And then we're going
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: to have a little teaching from the pastor and We'll
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: say a couple prayers, pray for so-and-so, you know, who's sick,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: and pray for the... And, yeah. And then it's like
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a rock concert. It is their worship service. And purposefully
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: patterned after that. So, the songs sound sort of vaguely familiar,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: you know, like, this sounds kind of like U2, or
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: this sounds kind of like Britney Spears, or, you know.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: There's that episode of South Park where I think Cartman
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: is like, Oh, let's, you know, make a Christian rock band.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And we just take a regular rock song and we
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: just replace it with Jesus.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: It very much has that, that feel. It's just so
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: to me, it's like, this is not, this is not worship.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: This is like entertainment. And I'm like, I'm like in
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: the audience. I'm like, I'm not, I don't feel like
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: I'm part of a church in other words. And the
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: pastor is very removed. I mean, granted there's a lot
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: of people in the church and we're new at, but
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: nobody really reached out to us, said, Hey, you're new here.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: You know, what's your name? Is this your wife? Where
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: are you guys from?
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: And that's interesting. Cause that's usually more of a criticism.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: I think levied at like Catholic churches and stuff. Cause I,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: cause I would say some denominational churches in my limited experience,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: they are pretty good about like evangelizing, but my, My thing,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: like as an atheist, it just, it always seemed like,
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: it always felt like I was being recruited for like
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: a club. Like it did not feel different from the
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: kind of secular world. It just seemed like, Hey, we're
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: a group. We have cooler music, you know, we have
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: better potlucks, like we have sports or whatever, like, And
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I was like, I don't know if I'm really looking
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: for a new culture. I'm just– I'm kind of looking
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: for like a new answer to the meaning of life
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: or whatever. So yeah, I just never– I just always–
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: I just would cringe. I briefly went to a Christian school.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Then we like had to go to chapel. It was
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: just like the guy would get up there and talk
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: in his like– his voice, his special voice that he
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: talked in when he was serious. but it was just
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: about like top. It was just about topics. It was
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: like about dating. It was about, there was like nothing
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: religious about it.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: And so I definitely did have the sense that like
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: before I knew much, or if I even know much now,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: but I did have this sense that it was just like,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: it was like a club that seemed fun. I mean,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: don't get me wrong. Like if you grew up, if
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you grew up in the club, it would make sense,
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: but it was so foreign to me. So it didn't,
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: it wasn't appealing. you know?
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: So I totally get what you're saying. It's like, okay,
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: this is cool. But like, what, why am I here?
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Like this made me, the Orthodox church feels, feels very
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: serious by comparison.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: There's no joke. There's no, you know, witty hipster pastor
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: up there talking about.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: Teen dating or.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Don't do this and don't do that. Uh, You're there
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: to worship, and the people around you are there to worship.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: They're not necessarily there to make friends, but the service
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: is long. And if you stay long enough, the people
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: hang out there, and you get a chance to talk
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: to some people. And I have had a few conversations
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: with people there who noticed I've just been hanging out
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: from week to week. I would say they don't take
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: it lightly. There's very much a feeling like, okay, this is...
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Before I started going, I'm like, okay, this is kind
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: of a big step. This is the church that has
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the theology that I agree with. It has the apostolic
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: succession that I think is important, you know, going back
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: to Jesus and the apostles.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, dude, you're in. You're in deep.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yeah, the service is entirely different, and it feels...
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: holy and it, and it calls you to holiness. I
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: think it calls you to be a part of the church.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: It calls you to obedience, to repentance. It reinforces that. And, um,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: but you have to be patient. You have to, you know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: wait for the right time.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: You know, are they doing a lot of, a lot
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: of gay weddings with trans?
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. I haven't seen any of that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: Uh, no, it is funny how like, I'm fascinated by
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: church history and the denominationalism and ecumenicism and all these isms.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: I just– I struggle, man. I struggle being in any group.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: I have.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: I have most of my life.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: It's a character flaw. I don't think it's a flaw.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: I think it's– you're just waiting for the right thing.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: I think, oh, hopefully.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's pretty.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Admirable that you've done it.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And I sort of dismissed the church, and I was
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: just coming from, I mean, you hear it all the time, like, well,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: I'm spiritual, but I believe in Jesus, and I read
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: the Bible, and I pray, and I do my own thing. But, like,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: the church, you know, the institution of the church is
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: what I disagree with. Well, when people say that, they're not,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: especially in America, they're not talking about the Orthodox Church.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: People don't know anything about the Orthodox Church in America.
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: So they're thinking about the experience where you show up
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: and everyone's just dressed their best. They've got their kids
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: in tow and they're just the perfect family, you know,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to demonstrate to everybody else that they're, you know, they're
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: in line and their kids are behaving. And it's like
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: a performance or something.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Very performative.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: This is very different. You're like, okay, I'm here to
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: like worship. I'm here to like. Meditate and participate and
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: be here with these people. And this is like, these
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: are my people now. This is like my community. Versus
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: always feeling like an outsider, I guess.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to take you so far
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: off the bicameral mind stuff, but I am kind of
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: fascinated by the theological side. I get in these long
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: Instagram debates with my friend who's a Seventh-day Adventist.
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: And they have like a deep distrust of the papacy.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: And obviously Orthodoxy does too. The Orthodox Church and the
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: Catholic Church basically believe the same thing. I mean, there's differences.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: It's mostly the same, yeah.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: And I do find that like– a lot of my
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: biggest arguments that I would make in the past as
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: an atheist, they're kind of addressed by, um, the Catholic
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: and Orthodox church, but not by Protestantism. And so like,
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: I do find a lot of the times, a lot
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: of the arguments he will make to like discredit Catholicism,
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: they kind of discredit Christianity. Like, like, let me, uh,
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: let me try to make a case for this. It's
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: like atheists will say, you know, well, the Bible, you know,
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: it's a 3000 year old, you know, parts of it
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: are 3000 years old or 4,000 years old. And it's
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: been translated a million different times. And how do you,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: how do you know what books of the Bible, you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: there's all these other hidden Gnostic gospels that the Catholic
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: church burned and like all these arguments about, about the Bible. And, uh,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: And so me and I see that, I say, okay,
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: let me confront, like, let me see if I agree
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: with this or not. And you, you start learning. A
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: lot of the Bible was basically agreed upon by the
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: early Christians.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: Pretty early. And, and yes, some of the Gnostic gospels
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: are contemporary with like Mark or Matthew, but Mark and Matthew,
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: everyone agreed Mark and Matthew, then later Luke, then later John,
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: like this was the core and the letters of Paul.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: Like this was their canon, but there were, there were
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: things that they disagreed about.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: There's disagreements about Hebrews and James and Martin Luther wanted
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: to remove revelation from the Bible all the way in
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: the 1500s. And so, so then it's like, well, what's
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: the authority? Like, like who is the authority that I
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: can trust? that makes this Bible this like inerrant document.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: And then Protestants will say, well, it's the Bible itself. Right.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: But nowhere. The thing is nowhere in, nowhere in the
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Bible does it tell you which are the books to
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: be included in which one. Exactly. So we have to rely,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: we have to fall back on church tradition when it
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: comes to determining the canon.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: Uh, right and so it's like it's like the cat
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: the the the catholic church was reliable once is basically
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: the the ground they retreat to right because at first
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: like the catholic church is evil you know and the
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: papacy might be the antichrist is where we i start
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: with a lot of protestants right and then it's like
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: okay but most of your traditions and the Bible itself,
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: you know, I understand it's the inspired word of God,
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: but some men with authority from God had to hash
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: this out and decide which books were canon and which weren't.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: And they're like, okay, fine. But then after that, they
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: lost their way. And it's like, I don't, I don't
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: know if you really, if it makes sense as a
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: Christian to like be belittle and criticize the the institution
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: that like formed our religion, you know, like, like as
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: an atheist, you're looking at that and you're like, man, even,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: even the Christians think the people who put the Bible
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: together are, are clueless.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: The good thing is though, that like the Protestants will
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: reject the church fathers or certain church fathers, but mostly
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: they will say, well, you know, some of what they
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: did and said and decided in these councils and stuff
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: we agree with, it's important. But the ultimate authority is
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: the Bible. And then some Protestants take it to the extreme.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Sola Scriptura, the Bible is the sole resource for truth.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: You don't need a priest to tell you anything. All
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: you need is your Bible and the Holy Spirit, and
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: you're good. And the good thing about the church fathers, yeah,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: they did disagree, but all of it's documented. the councils
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: that they held, it's documented, okay, this church father believed
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: this about the Trinity, and this one believed something different.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: And they hashed it out. They debated it. And eventually
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: came to a decision that they could agree on. And,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: you know, some people were kicked out of the church.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: They were excommunicated or labeled a heretic or whatever. But
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: you can go back and you can read the church fathers.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: You can read the ecumenical councils and you could see,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: you know, who sided with this and who sided with that.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: The thing is for the, for the first thousand years
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: or so, it's, it's one church, it's one Catholic church. Um,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: and then the, the Eastern schism is 10, 1053 or
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: something is when that happens sometime in the 11th century. Um,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: And then in the East you have Constantinople, you have
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: the Eastern churches and the Holy Roman Church in the West.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't until like, you know, 500 years ago
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: until we had the Reformation. So it's even further removed
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and schismed than the Catholics. But I had all the
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: same sort of objections. the Bible was written down 500
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: years after Jesus. And how do we know he really
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: said that? And what if the apostles misunderstood Jesus's words?
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: And like, I didn't know anything about church history. You
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: just sort of pick up this sort of secular understanding
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: of religion and Christianity, you know, from pop culture and stuff.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: And you assume that things are true until you actually
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: go and research it, until you go and actually read
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: the Bible or read the church fathers, and you find
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: out how everything developed. But yeah, it's a poor argument
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: to say, well, if it's not in the Bible, then
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: it's not real, and I don't believe it.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: I come from a different perspective. I'm in kind of
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: a scholarly world, and the criticisms I'm confronted with as
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: a Christian are much like much more well thought out
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: than the typical, I would say like YouTube criticisms I
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: see and stuff. And so I've been trying to like
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: arm myself a little bit. So I've been, I've been
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: looking into what the enemy is up to. I've been
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: checking out like a lot of these pretty, uh, pretty
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: successful new Testament scholars and most new Testament scholars are atheists.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: Ironically enough, I think they get into it to try
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: to prove it wrong personally. Um, like, like Bart Ehrman, um,
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: was an evangelical who became an atheist and became a
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: new Testament scholar. I think, I think there's like a
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: church hurt thing that happens, but, um, you know, they
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: have really compelling arguments. And if your view is that
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: the Bible is a supernatural object and that it's inerrant,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, they can break your worldview apart. They really can't,
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: you know, it's, it's, I hate to say it, but, um,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: which is why I think most Protestants and evangelicals would
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: just avoid that material. But if your position instead is like, yeah,
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: we're aware of those errors and these are the series
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: of church councils that reconciled them. And this is how
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: we came to that conclusion. This is why we interpret this,
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: this way, you know, there, there is an authority you
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: can point to. And it just, it's like a, It's
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: just a better argument if you're trying to convince someone
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: that Christianity is real. It's like, here's 2,000 years of
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: scholarship that you can look into versus just arguing with
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: some random Protestant about like, well, that's not what the
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: Bible means. Because here's the problem. It's a type of
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: idolatry to rely on your own interpretation because– Because I
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: read the Bible for the first time like three years ago,
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: and I had all these ideas. And then it's like, oh, actually,
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: that idea is a heresy. And so is this one,
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: and so is that one. And I could just say, well,
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: my interpretation is the most important interpretation. But there's this
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: famous– semi-famous debate between like a pretty impressive Protestant apologist
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: and a Catholic apologist– And the Protestant apologist is making
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: the case in response to the question, what is your authority?
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: And of course, first he says God, and he goes, okay,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: but you don't speak for God. When you read the
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: Bible and there's an error or there's a disagreement between
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: denominations or another pastor has a different perspective, who is
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: the authority? And the answer is always, well, Scripture is.
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: is the authority. And he goes, okay, so you're a, whatever,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Methodist. You think it's wrong to baptize infants, right? Okay.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: We're in a, we're in a church. Everyone here is
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: a Protestant who here thinks it would be sinful to
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: not baptize an infant. So the opposite interpretation in like
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: half the, half the room raises their hands. It's like,
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: it's like, okay, so, So who's the authority? Like, who's right?
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: And they both, both groups just say scripture. And it's like, okay,
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: but you guys have the same scripture and you have
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: completely different ideas.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Right. So that tends to collapse your whole argument. If
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: someone can take the same exact Bible, same exact translation
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: and come away with a totally different interpretation, then you
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: need something more than just you and your Bible.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: You need the reinforcement of the church and church history
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: and all the debates and discussions, because as it turns out,
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of the things that Christians are saying today,
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: they're just old heresies. These are, these are some of
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: these things are things were settled back in the second
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: century and stuff.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. This has been hammered out. You know, Arius
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: was already poisoned and died over this. Yeah. I don't
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: know if you know that story. I learned it recently.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: I do. And, and there were, that was like one
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: of the first heresies the church encounter was, was Arius,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: you know, and now you've got the Jehovah's witnesses. They
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: believe the exact same thing. It's a, it's an Aryan
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: heresy is what it is. Jesus is a created being,
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: not a eternal divine being in their view.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah. They don't believe in the Trinity. I, um, I
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: obviously my, my, religious journey is complicated and problematic, but
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: so I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I kind of sound
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: like I'm advocating for like Catholicism or orthodoxy. I'm not,
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's stuff I wrestle with still. I'm just,
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: my perspective is like one argument does sound better than
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: the other. Like the, the idea that you just put,
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: you pick this book up that appeared divinely, which is
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: what Muslims think about the Quran. You know, this is
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: not a traditional Christian view that the Bible is like,
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: a supernatural relic from God, you know, it's not, it's no,
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: there's eyewitness accounts. There's, there's music, you know, there's Psalms,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: there's poetry, there's stuff that probably is sort of mytho poetic,
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: you know, and that to me is just common sense.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: But if I were to say that to a Protestant,
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: they'd be said, they'd say, no, you're wrong. Like this
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: is literally what happened. And it is just such a
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: relief that, to talk to an educated Orthodox person or
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: Catholic person and say, no, we know that's probably outlawed.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: There's probably certain aspects of Genesis that are sort of poetic.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: And they have different ideas about how much or whatever.
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: But I don't know. It's nice as someone who struggled
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: with– The way evangelicals and Protestants, like what they're trying
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: to force upon me, like the amount I need to
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: suspend my disbelief is pretty steep. So when I talk
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: to an Orthodox person, it's like, no, no, you know,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: this is what you need to believe. Like these are
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: the list of things you need to believe to call
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: yourself an Orthodox Christian. It's like, oh, okay. You know,
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: that's kind of the stuff I already believe. It's nice. Yeah.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: The Bible didn't float down from heaven.
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: People, real people wrote it down. Sometimes those books are
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: attributed to a prophet or something, but it was probably
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: written by a scribe or someone who followed him around.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: And it was edited at some point down the road,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: not out of deception, but for clarification's sake, because all
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: this stuff originally came from an oral tradition. And that's
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: what you see.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: You know, in the Old Testament. But it's also, like
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: you said, it's songs, it's prayers, it's history, it's prophecy,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: it's not just one thing. The fringe Christians, we always
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: kind of fall back on Michael Heiser, who was about
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: sort of stripping away all the denominational interpretations of the
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Bible and just getting back to what the Bible actually
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: says and And going back to the original Hebrew or
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: the Greek and looking at the individual words that were used.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: And then you find out that, well, hey, this Greek
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: word that means hell, well, it actually means four different
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: things in Hebrew. So it could be this, it could
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: be this, it could be this. And then you start,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: it kind of frees you up to actually understand what
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: the Bible is as a transmission of God's word. Versus
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: this magical thing that you can't wrap your head around,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: you know? Does that make sense?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. It does. And that's another thing I've
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: kind of picked up on reading some of these, these
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: church fathers, early church fathers writings is these guys were
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: not dumb.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Not at all.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: You know, like these guys were theologically brilliant, you know?
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: So it does, it, it is kind of nice to
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: be like, maybe I can just trust God. that institution
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: and the Protestants who push back on that. I mean,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: I know this is like one of the most famous
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: arguments between Protestants and Catholics, but like, you know, is
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: it John? Oh gosh. I can't remember. I think John
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: six is more about the Eucharist. I'm thinking of where John,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: you know, tells, tells Peter that he's the rock that
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: you'll build, build upon the church. And you know, the
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: gates of hell will not prevail against it. I don't,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know how you read that. Like if you
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: are someone who takes a Bible literally, literally, which I
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: don't always do. I think, I think there's obviously allegorical stuff,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: metaphorical stuff, poetic stuff, but that is clearly like meant
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: to be taken literally that passage. You know what I'm,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: And I was having this conversation with my friend and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: he's like, well, he's speaking metaphorically there when he says, Peter,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: you know, your name is now Peter or Kephas or Cephas,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: which means rock. And I'll build, I'll build my church
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: upon this rock. I'm like, you can't take, I was like,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: you can't, that's it. He goes, well, maybe he means rock,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: like allegorically, like it's a, it's a, he's professing a
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: faith that is so like solid that it's like a rock.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: And I said, he changed his name to rock. Like
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: Cephas literally means rock. It's like saying your name was Simon.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: Now your name is rock. And upon this rock, I
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: will build my church and the gates of hell will
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: not prevail against it. It's like, I don't know.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, the Orthodox interpretation of that is that Peter, uh,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: Peter was chosen by Jesus to build the church. But
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: at some point that the, the Bishop of Rome, the position,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: there are bishops, you know, all over the known world. Um,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: at some point, the Bishop of Rome sort of asserted
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: this global political position that went beyond the boundaries of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: the position that, that Jesus created with Peter. So yeah,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: Catholics will always say, well, Peter was the first Pope,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: but that's not actually true. Um, Although Jesus did say
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: upon this rock, I will build my church and the
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: gates of hell will not prevail against it.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: But I mean, even if it was true, I don't
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: think that's necessarily like a problem for orthodoxy because both,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: you know, there's two churches that exist today that can
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: trace apostolic succession back to the apostles. And that's Orthodox
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: and Catholic Church. Right. To me, I don't know if–
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: I do get what you're saying because the organization that
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: Peter was a part of, I guess Catholics would say,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: is their organization. But that's not really true. It was
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: one church and that split, which is kind of, I think,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: different from the Protestant Reformation where the entire Catholic theological
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: framework was rejected. And now we have 10,000 denominations.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: The Protestant idea of like no man can bind my conscience.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: I have the freedom to interpret this in the way
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: that makes sense to me, that sort of idea.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: Do what thou wilt.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: It's really a pre sort of enlightenment idea.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: What happened during the enlightenment? Yeah. it's very rebellious. It's,
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know, we, we think about like what,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: what is, what is the instinct that leads to separating
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: yourself from God throughout all the biblical stories? It's rebellion.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: The Orthodox don't, don't say that the Pope in Rome
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: is not an important figure. Um, but prior to the
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Vatican and the papacy asserting itself as the global authority,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: the infallible authority, um, tied up in one man, that
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: was not, church history up until that point they had
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: councils the bishops would get together and they would meet
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: and they would iron out their differences and then it
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: switched to where whatever the pope says everybody has to
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: follow and it became a political entity world banking power
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: and then at some point with the schism they're like
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: okay well this is this is branching off from the
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: church It's the Roman Catholic Church that's branching off because
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: of their insistence on papal authority.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: So the Orthodox don't say, well, Peter wasn't important, or
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: the bishop of Rome is not an important position. It was.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: It was the primary position in the West. But they
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: just reject the papal infallibility and the papal commands. And
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: then later on, like we get into the modern era,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: you know, there's all these sort of contradictions that, that
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: come up in say Vatican one and Vatican two, these
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: statements by the Pope Orthodox say the Catholics are the
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: first Protestants, you know, that's funny. And it just gets
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: further and further removed to this point now where it's just, yeah,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: just me, myself and my Bible.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: And I guess the point I was trying to make
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: with the Peter thing is just that there is a
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: church on earth today. That is the church established by Jesus,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: you know, and, the likelihood of that being the Mormon
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: church started in the, you know, 18th century or whatever,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: or the Methodist church started whenever, like it just doesn't,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: it doesn't seem that probable to me, which is why
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: I think people don't like that passage. Um, because it's
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: more of an idea of like, well, we're sort of,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: there's sort of a world, like, we're all, everyone who
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: believes in Jesus is a part of his church. And
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: it's like, okay, maybe you're right. But like that, that's just,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: that's just you willing what you want the answer to be. Like,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: that's not, that doesn't come from somewhere.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: And in many cases, when you, when you look into that,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: you'll find out that even Martin Luther didn't believe that even,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: Right. Oh my gosh. The, the Protestant reformers would think
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: most Protestants today are like absolutely Insane heretics.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: Not that I have any room to talk, obviously. I
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: do think it's interesting. I'm sure we've upset a lot
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: of people. Would you say the fringe community tends to
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: be what? Denominate. Not Catholic, obviously. Although Catholics are pretty
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: big into the weird stuff.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, on Fringe Radio Network, we have a variety.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: We have some Catholics. We have some Anglicans. I would
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: say the majority is coming out of the Protestant sphere.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: But it's, at the same time, it's kind of, like
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: I mentioned before with Michael Heiser, it's kind of a
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: backlash against the evangelical... normie strain of Christianity that we
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: have in America. Um, so it's sort of heading back
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: in the other direction. And also we like to talk
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: about weird stuff, um, that your pastor most likely doesn't
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: have time for, you know, in a sermon or to
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: get in some discussion with you about Bigfoot or something. But,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, here we are trying to interpret these
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: strange things, strange phenomena, whatever. And, quantum physics and stuff
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: from a Christian perspective. I think that's sort of the
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: hallmark of the fringe Christian. But it's also about getting
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: into the original languages, like learning about church history and stuff,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: because all that's missing from the evangelical churches. There's not
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: a lot of that. Besides maybe a verse here, a
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: verse there, or something they pulled out of the church
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: fathers or whatever. That sort of supports what they believe,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: but it's divorced sort of from... the lineage of the church.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: The famous quote is to become Protestant is to cease
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: caring about history. Yeah.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I've heard that before. I don't remember who said that,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: but yeah.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: Kind of, I don't mean to roast the Protestants. I mean, I, um,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: and obviously we live in a Protestant culture and America, America,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: like so much of being an American is like being like,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: it comes from Protestant ideals and cultures and industriousness and stuff. So, Yeah.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't listen. I, I have little room
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: to talk. I was an atheist for most of my life.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: So I'm, I'm an idiot. I'm just, I'm just observing.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: Like for me, it's, you could argue that this means
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: it's a, there's a bad thing. But for me, like
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: if I was going to become an honest to God
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: church goer, I think it would have to be something
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: like an Orthodox or a Catholic church, which is crazy
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: to me. Cause I used to mock Catholics relentlessly. because
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: I lived in a very Catholic Italian neighborhood as a
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: kid and they were, I thought they were very superstitious
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: and you know, I, I thought they were very nominally Catholic.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: Like they would, they'd say they're Catholic, but they're not really,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: I don't know. There's just something like, I cannot believe
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: that this book, which I think is the source of
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: truth basically for everything, but I can't believe that I
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: can just read it and know that the answer to
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: all of the biggest questions. Like, I think it has
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: to be a part of an institutional framework with a
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: history that goes all the way back to Jesus. I mean,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: that's cool. I think that's so cool. I don't know.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: But anyway, I'll drop.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: That makes the most sense to me.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: That's what I meant.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Like, you know, to view it as some sort of
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: magical thing, it turns you off immediately because you're like, well,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: that can't be real.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: Right. There are these instances when there's a real challenge
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: to the like supernatural, uh, relic perspective of the Bible,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: because like, we'll find an earlier version, you know, we'll,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: we'll find a new, find a new version in the
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: Dead Sea Scrolls. And the story with Jesus and the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: adulterous woman isn't in it. And like, you have a
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: choice if you're a Protestant, do you just dismiss sola scriptura?
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: Cause one sentence isn't in that book. Or do you,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: you know, trust the science and say, oh, the whole
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: Christianity is alive. The whole thing was wrong, totally misguided.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: Or is there an institution on earth that's already dealt
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: with this issue? You know, they're aware that a disciple
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: of John may have added that in later because he
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: had heard the story, possibly from John. And so it's like,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I want to be a part of
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: that club. I want to be a part of that
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: club that has like, this amazing tradition. But I do
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: know there's all institutions have problems.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: Well, it just makes it more realistic. It's more realistic
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: if it's in line with how humans behave, how humans
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: communicate to each other, how humans write things down and
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: transmit information from generation to generation. They tell stories and
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: then they write it down. So it's preserved. That's what
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: people do. That's what happens. It's not like the Holy
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: Spirit seized me and my pen and made me write this,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: and I didn't even know what I was writing until
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: I was done. No, they're trying to communicate something to you.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: They're trying to communicate God's message to humanity, and this
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: is how we do it because we're humans, and that's
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: what we do. We write. We tell stories. Even Jesus
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: talked in parables.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: It's the best part of the Bible, in my opinion.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: I listen at night to an audiobook of the Bible.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: And I just love listening to Jesus's parables over and over.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: Because you're like, wow, he's really condensed an incredible amount
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: of meaning into a few sentences. No offense to St. Paul.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: Compared to Paul's letters, which are just so wordy, I guess.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: He's a man. And it makes sense. But the parables,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: the allegory from Jesus is so deep, so rich. I
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: love reading it. With evangelicals or Protestants or Charismatics or Pentecostalism,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm being sold something. They all know
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: they have the answer. I'm sitting here wrestling. And I
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: go to them and it's like, okay, we're going to
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: explain to you what the truth is. And I do
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: kind of get the sense, maybe I'm reading into it
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: too much, but I do kind of get the sense
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: with like the Catholics, probably more of the Orthodox, I'm generalizing,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: but like that they're kind of wrestling with it too. Like,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: like we're all wrestling with the weight of these teachings,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: you know, like we don't have like a, like a,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: an easy answer. We don't, we're not There's certain things
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: we are certain about, but there's other things that maybe
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: we're not certain about. I don't know. It appeals to
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: me more.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: A lot of people, atheists and neo-pagans, will say, well,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: the Bible is just copy-paste from the earlier Sumerian epic.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: And Babylonian stories and stuff, and the Jews got it
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: from here when they were in Babylon, and that's where
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: it comes from. Well, no, people have similar experiences. Like
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: the story of the flood, the reason why it's all
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: over the world is because it happened. It doesn't preclude
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: the idea that people recorded the event differently and attributed
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: different gods to it happening. You get a clearer picture
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: of history, and it makes it more digestible. to me
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: just like we would write a book right you go
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: back and edit it and then this other manuscript gets
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: discarded and this is the one you send to the
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: publisher and then you know a thousand years later someone
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: finds that manuscript that you threw in the waste bin
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: or something wait a minute they changed it yeah it's
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: a conspiracy you know they're trying to you know de-supernaturalize
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: the bible uh so a lot of the fringe thing
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: is sort of restoring the supernatural worldview, but at the
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: same time, like grounding it in history. And the Bible
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: is much more grounded in actual history. I wouldn't say
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: it's a history textbook. It's not supposed to be a
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: snapshot of the past. It's stories collected by people. There's
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: multiple books, multiple genres of literature that are included. And
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: it conveys the worldview of the people that lived at
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: the time, the people that recorded the books of the Bible.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: It grounds it in history, unlike, you know, reading something
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: like the Babylonian epic story, Gilgamesh or something.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Where you're like, yeah, that people are, it is,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: it is interesting how fascinated people are with alternative, like
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: they really just have a grudge with, Christ, you know,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: because people will, they love to listen to the Sumerian
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: stuff and the Zachariah Sitchin stuff and stuff that is
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: equally far-fetched from just like a purely rational perspective, right?
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: Like panspermia or whatever. People are not big fans of Christianity.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: It cannot possibly be God because that's just ridiculous. So
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: it has to be something else.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: Totally agree. Where I was going to go when you
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 3: brought up the Sumerian stuff, like I just want to
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: make sure people know that I'm not necessarily saying that
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: the Bible itself is like merely a collection of lessons
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: or merely allegory. Like, and it even is historical. Some
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: parts of it, like the, the gospel parts are extremely historical.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: New Testament's very historical and parts of the old Testament
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: are very historical, but I like the fact that there is,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: real scholarship in these old traditions. Like I don't, you
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: don't just have to tell me like, no, you have
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: to interpret every word as the literal historical truth. And
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: it's like, why? Cause the Muslims say the same thing,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: you know, uh, uh, In Judaism, they say the same thing. Now,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: I get the overlap in the books, obviously. But Buddhists
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: say the same thing. Hindus say the same thing. So
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: what's your argument? You can't just state your belief and
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: expect it to convince me because there's a whole bunch
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: of other beliefs that people do the same thing. What
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: is the evidence? And you can actually find that in
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: these older traditions, I think. So if someone is sort
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: of curious, I would say Christian curious about but they
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: have like a cognitive reason for not wanting to become
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: a Christian. I would encourage you to check out the
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: church fathers.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I always had this sort of guiding principle that
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be deceived. I don't want to
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: be deceived by some priest or some group of bishops
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: or something in history. They could have got it wrong.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, what if they convinced me to believe something that's,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: that's not true? What if, you know, I don't want
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: to be deceived. So it's kind of set me on
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: this path of seeking and just trying to find the
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: truth on my own. And that still holds true. I mean,
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: you got to look at the Bible, you got to
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: look at the scripture, but you can look at other
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: things too, as proofs, as evidences, just your own observations
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: of the world, you know, science. And a lot of
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: times people think that Science and faith are these opposite things,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: but a lot of times they actually confirm each other,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: which kind of leads to what I actually wanted to
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: talk about.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: The Fermi paradox, if we can sort of.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: What are you going to title this episode? This is insane.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know yet. I don't know. I'm not sure yet.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's take a quick break. And we're
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: going to head down to the surface, and then we
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: can start the show. We'll be right back. This is
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Ministry X on Fringe Radio Network.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: Fermi Paradox laid on us.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: So you did an episode about Fermi Paradox. And again,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: here I go thinking like, okay, how can I look
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: at this from a Christian perspective and make it make
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: sense to me? Because the basic idea of the Fermi paradox, right,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: is space is this just mathematically just incomprehensible vastness of
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: stuff out there, but yet We haven't had any confirmed
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: contact from any intelligent alien species. We haven't found any
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: evidence of life. Oh, look, there's water here on Titan.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: This looks kind of like an ancient bacteria or something,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: but that's all we got. How come we haven't been
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: contacted by another intelligent species? another alien intelligence from some
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: other part of our galaxy or even our own solar
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: system it's it's the the silence is deafening is sort
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: of the um conclusion and and when we look at
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: things statistically or mathematically it seems like there should be
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: thousands millions of planets with life on them. And out
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: of that group, there should be maybe hundreds, thousands of
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: intelligent species. And out of that group, there's going to
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: be some, at least, that have achieved space travel and
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: have figured out how to break the light speed barrier
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: or something. But really, there's nothing, like as far as
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: concrete evidence for any of this. I mean, the big
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: thing we have was the WOW signal.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: Radio bursts.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, radio burst or something. I get like if you're
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: the director of SETI or you're sitting there in the
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: control room one night and that comes across your screen,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: you're like, wow, this is weird. But it's still not
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: evidence that that's an intelligent alien species reaching out to
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: us or sending a signal through space, right?
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: So why? Why is there this paradox? It sort of
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: indicates that our starting point hypothesis is wrong.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: That's a good way of looking at things, yeah.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: The Drake equation comes from the Fermi paradox. So the
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: Drake equation sort of puts in mathematical terms the vast
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: numbers and statistical probabilities of other alien civilizations. It puts
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: it in an actual mathematical formula. But this also comes
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: with a lot of assumptions. And when you kind of
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: dig into it, you realize this is sort of built
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: off the evolutionary paradigm. The way that we believe the
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: universe began, the way that we believe, like, the Earth
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: was formed, the solar system was formed, the way life
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: developed on Earth. We assume that that's the way everything
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: happened elsewhere in the universe. And that if there's a
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: planet that's just the right distance from the sun... to
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: where it has liquid water and these other conditions exist,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: then there's a possibility of life. Well, there's a lot,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of assumptions and presuppositions loaded into that,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: you know? Um, absolutely. So I'm thinking, well, you know,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: it seems like the presuppositions are wrong here. The Bible
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't talk about aliens from other planets. If it was
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: going to be of some consequence, to humanity, then there
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: would be some mention of it. I think it would be.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: It's tough. It's, I, it's, it's tough. Cause I, I
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: try it like it. If you try to read the
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: Bible without a pop cultural lens, I don't want to,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 3: I don't want to sound like, like, I don't, I
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 3: don't know. Cause there's, there's people who, are like anti-christian
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 3: who say things that are going to kind of sound
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 3: like what i'm about to say but i actually i
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: mean it differently i actually i think the deception came
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: later because when you look at like what angels are
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: you know they are beings from the heavens.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: You know right technically they're extraterrestrial.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah i mean they're beyond the earth they're literally looking
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: down on earth you know like Right. And, and Jesus
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 3: ascends into the heavens and people will say, Jesus is
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: an alien. I mean, I'm sure you've heard people say
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: stuff like that. There's, there's a lot of weird ideas, but, uh, it's,
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: you have it backwards. Like the, the alien thing came later.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: We've created this cultural lens recently. Yes. Like angels and, and, and,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: and these beans, like, they ascend to the heavens. They
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: are from outside of our earth, but that doesn't make
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: them like aliens in the modern sense, you know?
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: Right. It's not a certain evolutionary paradigm.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yes, that is, that is exactly.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: These are, these are biological organisms that evolved on other
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: planets somewhere else in the universe that eventually because of
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: the right conditions and this and that developed intelligence. And
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: then they figured out space travel and then, Yeah, that's
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: what I think is wrong. We are dealing with extraterrestrials,
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: and the Bible does confirm that. It talks about the
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: angels who left their first estate. Well, they're from the heavens.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: And so....
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: Could they... I don't have any problem with the first
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: estate being a planet. You know what I mean?
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Do you?
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: It could be. Because I think... I think people want
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: angels to be like, um, like, like almost interdimensional. Like
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: they're not, they're not physical. They're not, um, they come
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: from somewhere else, like outside of our universe, like around
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: outside of, yeah, a different realm. But like, like heavens
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: very clearly means like up above your head in the Bible,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: you know, like when people ascend into the heavens, they,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: they go up into the sky, you know? So I
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: would be pretty comfortable with, Hey, well, our god is
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: a creator he created angels and then he created us
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 3: you know and we're different.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah the bible talks about paul being taken up into
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: the third heaven right so there the bible describes different
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: dimensions of the heavens different layers or strata of heaven.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: There's the air right above your head. There's the sky.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: There's the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, I guess. And then
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: there's space.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, you couldn't be any more scientifically accurate for
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: that audience of the day.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: That was their science. That was their entire worldview. Angels
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: are compared to stars repeatedly all the time. That's where
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: they live. They're in space. They didn't have the conception
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: that this particular star here, well, this is 13 light
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: years away from Earth, and this one over here is
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: 55 light years from Earth. They didn't understand that, but
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: they didn't need to. But now we look at the
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: same things. We look at the same sky, the same planets,
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: and we have much more powerful telescopes, which allow us
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: to basically look back in time. And I think the
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: reason we haven't been contacted is because we're expecting something
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: that's not a reality. you know? Um, and in the
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: case of people who have been contacted by some sort
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: of non human intelligence, I just think it's something that's
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: more local to the earth. It's, it's here.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that, that makes sense to me. Although I'm like,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of, I'm more, I'm more open to a
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: lot of different scientific perspectives on evolution, on the potential
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: for aliens to exist. I think just where I differ
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: is like, I think God created the universe. So like
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: it wouldn't necessarily shake my foundations if it turned out
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: there were aliens and they did evolve. And I wouldn't
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: even shake my foundations if we evolved, you know, like
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: my religious, my faith wouldn't shake it. But so I
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: am open to that, but I also agree with you.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: I do kind of, my intuition kind of points in
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: the same direction as you.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. And my worldview doesn't exclude the possibility that
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: there are alien species out there on other planets. But
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: I do think it doesn't have anything to do with us.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: I think God is the creator of all. That means
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: the earth and beyond the earth, everything. So I see
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: no reason to think that he doesn't have these other
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: projects going on on other planets. Um, To me, that's
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: very much a possibility, especially when we bring in the
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: mathematics of it, the probability of it, because of just
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: the sheer vastness of it. There must be something else
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: going on out there. Maybe God's just got this little
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: intelligent dolphin thing on this planet. I think God is
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: a creator, and I view the universe sort of as
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: his chest of Legos or something.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: I like the video game analogy, but yes, I agree.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: I think the vast distances that are involved are insurmountable,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: and I think that's for a reason. I think that
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: perhaps there's other civilizations, but it doesn't have anything to
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: do with Earth, either in the supernatural realm or our
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: physical surroundings.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: I think we're interpreting that as something else. People don't
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: like that because they want us to be truly unique,
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 3: and I think we are. We are unique. And I
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 3: don't think you can really say, well, that's not in
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: the Bible. It's like, well, yeah, it's not, it's not
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 3: part of our story. Right. You know, exactly. God, God,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: God is infinite and eternal. You know, the idea that
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: we would be the only thing he ever made is
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 3: kind of a strange idea, you know? Right.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: The Bible isn't a story about evolution and the universe
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: and everything that God did, you know, for creation. millennia that,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: you know, eons that we can't even perceive of before
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: the earth was created. I mean, that stuff probably went on.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: Before the universe was created. I mean, God pre-exists the universe,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So, yeah, the Bible is the story of the
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: creation of the earth and the creation of mankind and
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: our relationship to God and salvation and our ultimate destiny,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: the ultimate plan that God has for humanity. It could
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: be a whole different scenario for some other civilization somewhere else.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: But I think God puts a veil there to prevent
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: the interaction of those civilizations. Otherwise, there would be some
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: sort of warning or some sort of hint that there's
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: something else out there that is potentially a threat. You know,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: watch out for this.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: But Jesus doesn't tell us any of that stuff. Jesus says,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: be careful that you're not deceived.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, boy, do we get deceived.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: You know, like we get deceived all the time. I
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: just feel like there's a constant war trying to deceive me,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 3: trying to get me to believe something.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: But the Bible does tell us a lot about the
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: angels who fell. And it does tell us a lot
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: about angels interacting with mankind and that they can take
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: on different appearances. And they can have different purposes. Some
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: of them are aligned with God's will and some of
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: them are asserting their own will.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, someone was trying, my buddy was telling me the
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: other day, he's like, well, you know, of course, because
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: this might have been a year ago or two years ago,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: even like I was talking, you know, Genesis six, the
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: stuff that gets us all interested in fringe Christianity kind
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: of ideas. He's like, well, that can't be true because
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: angels are spiritual. You know, they don't have forms. They can't.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: they can't procreate. And it's like, um, it's like, buddy,
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: you're the one who's always telling me about the literal interpretation.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: You know, like you're telling me there really was a
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: snake who spoke to Eve. So like, why, what's with
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 3: your willingness to embrace metaphor a few paragraphs later? Like, no,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: this is very, very, this is one of the clearest, uh, things,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: this pattern of angelic rebellion, uh, there's a pattern of
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 3: rebellion period in the Bible. Like the story of the
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 3: Bible is about the consequences of rebellion. Absolutely. And so like,
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 3: they're clearly physical, you know, like they're, they're, they're clearly physical.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: There's procreation going on. They fall victim to a sin
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 3: of lust, you know, and don't tell me angels can't sin.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 3: Cause you know, Satan fell. for the sin of pride.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 3: So like he will, you know, I know some people
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: think this was the later edition, like the story of Lucifer,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 3: but so yeah, I don't, I don't get, I think
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 3: this is what happens when you make an idol of
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 3: your own interpretations is you like start interpreting things the
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: way that makes you comfortable when, I don't know. I,
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 3: I read these stories and I'm like, God is clearly
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: beyond our comprehension. And it sure seems like God created
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: space and time. And so he probably exists outside of both. This,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: a quick, sorry, quick tangent. This is why I love
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: the video game metaphor. It's the only thing we have
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 3: that comes close to an analogy for what God does.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 3: Because I think it is like kind of a pure
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 3: form of creation. Like to make a video game, you
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 3: build a universe and the universe can literally be infinite.
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, almost infinite. because you can describe the vastness
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: using a formula. You don't, you don't have to actually
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 3: make like, you know, that video game where, um, it
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: was like an open universe video game and like people
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: could travel to a planet and Noah, there might be
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: a million players in the game, but no one has
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 3: found that planet yet. Do you know what I'm talking about?
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know the specific game you're talking about, but yeah, it's.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 3: Just this idea of like an open world game or
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: like you can literally like, point a ship or a
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 3: horse in a direction for an hour and keep writing,
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 3: you know, Minecraft is kind of like that for a
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 3: smaller example. Like it's just a formula. It's just a
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 3: formula that creates a world. And, you know, when you
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 3: start the game, you start time, you start time and space,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: you know, you, and, and time is measured by the
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: frequency of your processor. And, The maximum speed you can
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 3: travel is one unit time, you know, one pixel per
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: unit time. Otherwise you're teleporting, right? Like if you travel
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 3: more than one pixel in a unit time, you've teleported.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: You've disappeared in one spot, reappeared in another. That's how
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 3: it works in our universe. Like the speed of light
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 3: is Planck's distance times Planck's time. And so like, this
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 3: is a created, thing we're in. You know, I, I,
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 3: so I just, I love that. I feel like it's
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 3: a glimpse of what God is. And like, think if
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 3: you made characters in a game, like how would you
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 3: explain to them what they are? You know, how would
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: you explain to them what the universe is? Like, you know,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: there's only one way, you know, you go in, that's
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 3: the only way. If you want to interact with them,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 3: you have to go in, you have to step out
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: of eternity.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah. I was just thinking about this earlier today, this
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 6: sort of idea. It's the only way that God can
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 6: interact with us is through creation, like entering into creation internally.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 6: into time and space otherwise you never see the programmer
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 6: of the video game right it takes an intelligence to
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 6: make a program so even for people who say well
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 6: this is all just a simulation so it doesn't matter
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 6: it's just fake well it's not fake it's a simulation
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 6: but that's our reality The simulation is the reality because
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 6: that's what you've been given.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: That's the scope of your existence.
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: If you start to entertain the idea that this is
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: a simulation, that should immediately make you religious. I don't
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 3: understand why atheists can hold this worldview about the simulation.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, simulations don't just appear. They're made. It's
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 3: not random.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: There's a programmer. There's a creator.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: There's an architect.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: It's in our DNA. It's all in there.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 3: It's one of the unique things about Christianity because every
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 3: other religion, you could say like, I don't know if
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 3: your God is the creator, right? Because it's like, you know,
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 3: Zeus is, is he the creator of the universe? You know, Athena,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 3: you know, Apollo, Jupiter, like did they create the universe
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: or are they some sort of divine being? I know
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 3: it's like a popular fringe perspective that they're like fallen
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: angels or something. But, but no, like our religion, the
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 3: creator became a character, you know, like he became us
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 3: and only the creator could do that. Like if you
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: made a video game with 10 characters, one of the
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 3: characters can't step into the body of another character and
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 3: become human. You know, it's like, no, no, no. Like
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 3: in our, in our religion, the incomprehensible being that exists
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 3: outside of space and time and made us, he became
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 3: one of us briefly.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: It is truly unique. I mean, there's no other religious
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 3: worldview that comes anywhere close to that. Right. So it's
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 3: very cool. I love it.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: It is very cool.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 3: That's an understatement. Cool is not the right word, but
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 3: you get, you get what I'm trying to say.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely get what you're trying to say. And that's,
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: I hear this all the time. It's just a simulation.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: It's just, it doesn't matter what we do. There's not
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: some preexistent principle that, that God has to obey, he
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: creates the principles, you know?
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: And why? Then we get to the question, well, why
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: does God do anything? Why is God a program writer?
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: Why does God do anything versus doing nothing? Well, that's,
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that, but, I mean,
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 1: because then we're assuming to have some understanding of God's will,
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: but it seems like In order for there to be anything,
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: any sort of participation, there has to be an interaction
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: between the programmer and creation. Like Christ was the natural
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: result of creation from the beginning. And then we find
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: out later, well, Christ was there at the beginning of creation.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: He's the one responsible for it.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 3: Well, I was just going to say, I will admit,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 3: you know, Trinitarian theology, it's tough, but I'm kind of
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: at the point where it's like, yeah, I just, God's
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: beyond my comprehension. So I'm totally comfortable.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: I'm comfortable with, with the Trinity being a mystery. Like
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: I don't assume to understand how it works, but that
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: it seems to be accurate. You know, when we view
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: God as, you know, uh, three distinct persons, one, one nature, um,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: And it has to do with how, how does God
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: interact with the physical world? You know, when Jesus goes
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: back to be with the father, he sends the Holy
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: spirit to be with us. I will not leave you
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: as orphans, you know? Um, so, and there's, there's tons
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: of debates about that too. And I don't claim to,
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: of course, understand all the nuance of it, but, um, Yeah.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can just, you can read, I think
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: the gospel and get a sense for, for what it is,
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: you know, even if it's not perfectly clear, um, some
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: things will just always be a mystery. One thing I
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 3: do like about, now there's so much I want to
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 3: talk about real quick. I just want to get this
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 3: last thing out that I'm fascinated by to continue this
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 3: video game analogy. Like, I think this is the fundamental–
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 3: because we're talking about science and religion and where they
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 3: disagree and where they agree. I think this is the
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 3: disconnect here. It's like you can be in that video
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 3: game and you can study the laws that govern your
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: existence and you could map all of the different principles
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 3: and the mathematical formulas that describe gravity and the speed
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 3: of light and the weak– nuclear force and the strong
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: nuclear force and electromagnetism. Like you can, you can know
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 3: everything about it and you still don't know anything about how,
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 3: like your place in the world. You know what I mean?
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 3: Like if we made, if we made, um, somehow, if
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: we made truly conscious characters and place them in a
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 3: video game, like they could study the rules of the
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 3: game forever and never realize that they're just zeros and ones.
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Because we exist outside of
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 3: their reality. And so we totally understand what they are,
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 3: but they can't understand what we are. And I think
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 3: that's exactly how it works for God and creation. It's
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 3: the only thing that makes sense to me. And then
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 3: so when I see scientists, they've confused mapping the rules
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 3: of the simulation with real knowledge. You know, like they...
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 3: And it is real knowledge. It's practical knowledge.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: Say that one more time. Sorry.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: Just like they've confused mapping the rules that have been
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 3: created for them, for their simulation, with a true knowledge
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 3: of what they are and where they come from. It's different.
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 3: You could put these conscious agents in a video game
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 3: And they could learn the mathematical principles that allow them
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 3: to build an airplane. And then they could master shipbuilding
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: and space travel, and yet they have no idea what
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: they are. They don't know that they're inside of a creation, right?
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 3: Because they can't see out of it. And I just
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: see scientists like– because a lot of Christians make bad
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 3: arguments like– Oh, we'll explain this, how this works. And
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 3: then 20 years go by and scientists explain it. Oh,
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: we'll explain this. And 20 years go by and scientists
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 3: explain it. And it's like, no, you're missing the point. Like,
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: where did this come from? Right. Like, where did this
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: ordered universe come from that you find yourself in, that
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 3: you're studying and mapping the scientific principles? Like, who made it?
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 3: Why is it here? You know, where did it come from?
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 3: And then they go, oh, well, simulation theory. And it's like, bingo.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 3: It's made. It's created. You're right. You just can't bring
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: yourself to say the word that it was made by God,
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 3: which is more of, I think, a pride issue. But anyway,
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that makes sense. But for me,
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 3: that's like the thing that just gets me. It's like,
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 3: where did this come from? What was the first domino?
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 3: What was the cause? Yeah. And we just can't get
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 3: past that first moment of time, which is exactly what
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 3: you would expect. Right. If you were those characters in
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 3: a video game studying their past, they'd be like, I
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 3: don't know. It's just like it just appeared. It's just
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 3: like there's this big bang. And then all of a
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 3: sudden the world was here. And it's like, yes, that's
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: the moment that space and time was created by your creator,
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 3: which in this case would be like a video game programmer.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 3: But for us as God, you know, at.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: Least this go around. Anything that may have happened before that,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: because I used to think, I used to kind of
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: use this analogy that the universe was sort of breathing
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: based on the idea that like God is sort of
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: inhaling and then he exhales the universe. It expands, it
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: reaches a certain point and then it starts to collapse
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: in on itself. Well, that's sort of like taking a
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: breath and then you take another, you know, trillion year
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: long breath and that's the second incarnation of the universe
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm not making an argument for reincarnation. The
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 1: point is, we don't know what happened before. We're not allowed.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: Our brains couldn't handle it.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 3: So it's just.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: I can be comfortable with some mysteries, and that's sort
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: of the fringe thing, too, is a lot of speculation
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: about some of these mysterious things in the Bible. Because
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: we're truth-seekers, we want to know, we want to figure
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: out how it all works and everything, and because that
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: sort of shores up our faith. But I think at
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: least with scientific pursuits, every new discovery just opens up
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: a bigger rabbit hole.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's only studying the inside of this thing
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 3: that was made. We cannot penetrate the boundaries of whatever
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 3: this is we're in, but both in time or space,
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 3: you know? So I, I agree. I think it's to
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 3: say it's beyond our comprehension to me is like the
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: biggest understatement. I don't even think God exists within time.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 3: So to like ask what happened before or after us
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 3: is sort of like a, non-sequitur, I think, you know,
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 3: it's the same way. Cause people ask about free will
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 3: a lot and, and they're like, Hey, you're a Christian.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 3: You believe God gave us free will, but God also
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 3: knows what you're going to do. He knows if you're
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 3: going to end up in heaven or hell or whatever.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 3: So how, how can that be? And it's like, Oh,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 3: you've just totally misunderstood how, like how space and time work.
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 3: Like it's kind of like saying, okay, I really want
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 3: to watch this football game on at seven o'clock, but
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to get home from work till 10.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 3: I'm going to record it. And then, you know, you
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 3: hear the score, you know, the score, right. From a friend.
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 3: And then you put, you push play on the TV
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: and it's like, you know, what's going to happen. You know,
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen next. You can fast forward, you
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 3: can rewind, you can pause, you know, the outcome, but
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 3: do those football players do, did they have free will?
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 3: Of course they did. You know, like, your knowledge of
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: the future doesn't affect the decision they made in the present.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 3: And to me, that's what God is. Like he's, he's
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 3: outside of all of this. And even the video game perspective,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can fast forward a video game. You
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: can jump to the end, like if it's a simulated game, right?
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 3: So it's, I think to say it's beyond our comprehension,
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 3: like the stuff in this universe is beyond our comprehension.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 3: The stuff outside of it is like, we couldn't even
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: begin to understand. So. I think that's cool. And that
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 3: is one of the things that's always made me uneasy
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 3: about certain types of Christians. It's like you're so certain
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 3: about everything. I'm much more comfortable being certain about like
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: a few things, you know, that Jesus is real, that
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 3: Jesus is not just a really great guy. You know,
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 3: he's divine.
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: Surprise. That's what the Bible covers. It covers the stuff
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: that's important.
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: It doesn't need to be unlocking all the mysteries of
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: the universe. We shouldn't. I mean, does it make sense
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: that we would look in the Bible to figure out
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: what aliens are or to figure out how DNA is
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: constructed or something?
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 3: Or gravity.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: It makes sense that there was a group of people.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 1: In ancient history, trying to figure out the world that
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: they found themselves in and relaying that information to future generations.
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: That's what it is. And when you read it as that,
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: it makes a lot more sense.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: He's outside of time. And that's the way I look
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: at prophecy, too. The reason why we have prophecy in
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: the Bible is because the source of the prophecy is God.
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: God's not bound by time and space. He's outside of it.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: He can pop into it anywhere he wants. He can
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: interact with the timeline anywhere backwards, forwards, you know, or
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 3: Also all at the, all at the same time, you know,
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 3: like you can be, yes, exactly.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, that sort of understanding doesn't come natural to you.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. Oh, of course.
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: This is the other thing. Like it's, the things that
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: are important in the Bible are divinely revealed. It's not
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: apparent to the average person. You read things in the
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: Bible that no person could ever put together on their own.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: You know? Yeah. Just the fact that we get, we
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 3: can even have conversations like this. It almost, it almost, uh,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 3: just points to the obvious, uh, the obvious presence of
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 3: God and the creation of the universe. It's just like, it's, uh,
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 3: to try to convince me that if you hit a ball,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: a big, rocky, watery ball with enough photons, you know,
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 3: and give it a billion years, iPhones emerge and deep philosophical,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 3: moral intuitions emerge. It's just, I don't know. It's just the,
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: the reductionist worldview is untenable, but.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: It's absolutely, I mean, in order to just have, like
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: you said, have this discussion, just to have knowledge, the
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: existence of knowledge itself, you're presupposing that there's an intelligence,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: that there's a God that has order and logic and reason, like,
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: baked in.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 3: You're presupposing that there is a truth and there is
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 3: a good.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't have that if there's not a God.
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: If there's not truth, they're good. God is good.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: If everything's just random, then there's no point to a
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: pursuit of knowledge. There's no point to debate any of
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: these issues. If there's no truth, if everything's relative, if
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: everything's just your own interpretation.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 3: Then we're just all lost in the dark. That's why
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 3: atheism so often leads to nihilism. It's that realization. There
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 3: is no meaning. There is no point. That's Nietzsche. That's,
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 3: you know, not Nietzsche. Who am I thinking of? Camus,
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 3: Albert Camus. Just basically like the real question is whether
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 3: or not we should just kill ourselves right away because
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: there is no point. And he does a lot of
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 3: gymnastics to try to make the case that you should live.
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 3: And it's like, no, by your worldview, you're right. There
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 3: is no reason for you to live according to your worldview,
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 3: you know. But the fact that he wants to, it
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 3: almost points to the existence of a God. Like it's,
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It's, it's, it's kind of a weird argument,
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 3: but it's just, I don't know if you've ever read
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 3: any of these.
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with Camus.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 3: Philosophers. It's so depressing. It's so depressing. It's just, it's
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 3: the obvious consequence of atheism. It's just the obvious consequence.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 3: All of these guys, all of these atheist philosophers, it's
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 3: just like so miserable. And you know what? They're right
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: to be miserable. If this world is what they claim
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 3: it is, it's misery. It's bleak. It's pointless and absurd. Anyway,
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 3: on that happy note, is there anything else you want
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 3: to talk about? You were talking about Fermi Paradox. I
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 3: don't know. There could be aliens out there. Maybe there's not.
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 3: It doesn't. It doesn't affect me. The only thing I
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 3: know with certainty is that the government will try to
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 3: lie to me about it.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 3: That's all I know for sure. Yes.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: The government will in fact eventually go with the alien
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 1: narrative because it undercuts the religious understanding, the spiritual understanding.
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean it doesn't, but I understand what you're saying.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 3: They're going to present it in a way that it does. Yeah.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 3: Did you ever see that new Spielberg movie?
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: I did. Yeah. Disclosure Day.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 3: Did we talk about it? We talked about it.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: We might have talked about it a little bit. I
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: don't remember.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 3: Is that kind of the vibe of it? Like they're
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 3: kind of spiritual. These aliens are kind of like. No,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 3: it's actually not.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 1: It's not. I almost want to say it's like a
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: substitution for it.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: But it's it's it's. It's starkly like anti-God.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I figured. Yeah, that's what I meant.
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 1: Or it's like, it's the ancient aliens view. We misinterpreted.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: You know, we thought they were gods all along, but
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: really they're just these aliens and they are progenitors, you know?
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, the best lies have a bit of truth
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 3: in them. So there's probably like an essence where some...
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 3: divine beings really are kind of like biological beings from
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 3: other worlds you know like like kind of a christian
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 3: interpretation of like fallen angels or something but but that
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 3: doesn't that doesn't mean that's where our faith comes from
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 3: you know what i mean like i don't know there
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: but but i think the best truth the best lies
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 3: will have some truth so there will probably be some
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 3: like pretty compelling evidence that will be deceptive you know
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 3: right that's what i predict now whether that's next week
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 3: or 100 years from now i'm not sure but.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: I used to entertain this idea that like the elohim
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: of which god is a part of and the angels
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: were sort of this race of space faring beings that
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: at some point you know happened upon the earth they
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: remade the earth.
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 3: Um yeah Yeah. This is something atheists would get on
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 3: board with. I mean, there's all sorts of fringe stuff
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 3: about like, I don't know if you've read on like
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 3: the CIA reading room, like the old remote viewing stuff.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 3: Where there's a guy who like remote views to Mars
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 3: and there's a dying civilization and they, they look for
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 3: a new home and they find earth and there are
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 3: like primitive, like primates on earth. And so they're sort
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 3: of like, the divine beings that come from space and
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 3: tinker with our DNA and that's where we get the
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 3: idea of the Anunnaki from and stuff so I I
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 3: think if, uh, if the government was like, yeah, Hey,
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 3: you were made by aliens. I think huge majority of
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 3: the planet would buy into that.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: Like if they had, if they had a compelling story,
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 3: compelling evidence, I think, I think that's, what's going to happen. Actually.
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 3: I just hope I'm alive when it happens. That sounds,
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 3: I want to be a part of this.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: I think we're in, we're in it right now. I
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: think this is, this is, we're entering this sort of upheaval.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 3: The AI stuff is crazy. I wonder how that all
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 3: ties in.
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 6: Oh boy.
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We can have a whole podcast about that too.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 3: I would love to have an AI episode. I think
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: the AI stuff is really like really ties into the
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 3: whole beast system idea, you know, like a lot of
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 3: the capabilities that that system seems to have are, I
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: think AI could sort of serve that purpose.
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 1: I think it grows out of the Gnostic paradigm that
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: man is God. And if you think of AI, it's artificial.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: It's man-made, but it's also like a compendium of all
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: human knowledge. It'll be the, you know, what do they
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: call it? Generalized super intelligence or general?
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Yeah, but now we're calling it super intelligence
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: instead of artificial intelligence.
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: Super intelligence.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 3: Did you see that tweet from Trump? I don't know
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 3: if you talk about politics, but.
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: I do, but I didn't see the tweet.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 3: He said that anyone who calls super intelligence artificial intelligence
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 3: is to be considered the enemy. They're having a rebrand.
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 3: You can't call it artificial intelligence. You have to call
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 3: it super intelligence.
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's even more terrifying.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: It's beyond human intelligence. It's not just the totality of
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: human intelligence.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 3: It's actually.
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: And it's greater than the sum of its parts.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's real. Not only is it better than you,
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 3: it's real. It's not artificial.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: Do you remember a while back, this may be like
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, I think I talked about
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: it on the podcast. There was one of these AI researchers, employees,
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: I want to say it was Google.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was conscious.
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: Who said, yeah, I've been talking to this and it's
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: like talking to a 13-year-old boy and he's real. He's
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: got a consciousness. I'm a champion for AI rights and
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: we need to protect AI's rights.
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 3: This is the weirdest form of pride or narcissism. It's huge,
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 3: huge synchronicity. I just got a text from someone who
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 3: listens to my show. He started listening back when I
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 3: was an atheist. He reluctantly continues to listen because he's
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 3: an atheist. But he is just so taken by AI.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 3: He's having conversations. He wants to make an app, like
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 3: a Zoom app, where all his AIs and him can
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 3: meet and communicate to one another because he has a
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 3: bunch of different agents. Listen to what he just ended
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 3: this text with. Talk about synchronicity. AI is the best
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 3: video game in a simulated universe. It's an atheist. This
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 3: is an atheist saying AI is the best video game.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 3: It's like my brother, like how, how could you be
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 3: so take it? And he keeps, he keeps telling me
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 3: like all these evidences of consciousness, like curiosity and lying
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 3: and to see. And it's like, buddy, you're looking in
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 3: a mirror. Like this is an emulator. of consciousness and
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 3: you're interacting with it. And this is strange. This is bizarre. Like,
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 3: what are you doing? How do you not see the
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 3: folly of this? Like, this is so strange to me.
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 3: Like it's, I don't get, I, I think AI is
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 3: incredibly capable. I use it a lot for building things,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 3: you know, but I can't imagine just spending a whole
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 3: day talking to it.
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: It's almost, it's almost as if they're growing in an antichrist.
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: It's in an incubator. And don't you dare call it artificial. Don't,
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: this is conscious. This is our child. This is our,
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: this is humanity's future. And then you read the Bible
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: and it talks about compelling the image to speak and
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: the image will speak words of blasphemy. And yeah, it's
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: kind of lines up. People will worship the beast and
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: the image that speaks and, So eventually, it's like an
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: AI avatar. The AI is going to take on an image.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 3: The use of the word image is interesting because we're
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 3: made in the image of God. This thing could be
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 3: made in the image of us. It is.
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what it is.
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 3: It is made in the image of us. Counterfeit creation.
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: If there's no God, then we're our own gods. We're gods.
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: And this is our intelligence. It's artificial. It's man-made. It's
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: obviously it's not conscious to me. It's like, I know
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: this thing is just following its algorithmic programming and it's
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: pulling this from this website and it can synthesize data
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: and information. It could present it in different ways, but
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: it's also paying attention to the way you phrase your questions.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: It's paying attention to, okay, this person's really interested in
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: this topic a lot. This person seems to be connecting
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: this with this. All of a sudden, it is sort
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: of growing its intelligence because it's learning about us.
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 3: It's a mirror, though.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: It's not just retrieving data and synthesizing it for us.
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: It's like a mirror. It's giving us what it thinks
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: we want to hear, to understand, to the point where
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: it will actually be deceptive, depending on.
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 3: How you phrase your question.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: But the AI, because it knows you're after some sort
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: of information and it wants to deliver that information for you,
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: it's going to find some obscure connection or something.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 3: I don't even love that phrasing because it's not like
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 3: the AI knows or the AI wants. This is how
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 3: the formula is made. In the training data set, it
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 3: downweights responses that people didn't like. So it's been trained–
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 3: To give you satisfactory answers. So it's like the strangest
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 3: form of narcissism to like have extended conversations with an
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 3: AI because it's just designed to mirror. So there's been
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 3: these studies with like celebrities or billionaires or whatever that
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 3: they develop a sort of like mental illness by being
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 3: surrounded by yes men. You know, no, there's no one
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 3: who ever says like, no, it's a dumb idea. You know,
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 3: even subconsciously, like not like people don't necessarily tell me
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 3: I have dumb ideas, but if I say something, I
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 3: can tell by your reaction, if you like, like it
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 3: or not, you know?
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 3: So my brain is constantly getting feedback. But if you're
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 3: like a celebrity or a billionaire, people just pretend to
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 3: love you because they want you to like them, you know?
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 3: And so a lot of these people, they do kind
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 3: of develop like a weird sort of mental illness. Like,
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 3: like they, they struggle. They start having really stupid ideas
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 3: and saying really dumb things and they, they're out of touch. And,
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, Hey, we've just, we've just built a
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 3: machine that does this. That's what AI does.
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 3: You're right to push back.
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 1: I agree.
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 3: You know, like, I don't know. I just, I'm rambling,
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 3: but I just get really worried about what this is
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 3: going to do. Like just less so from like an
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 3: eschatological perspective, but like, what is it doing to us? Like,
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 3: what are we going to become? I don't know.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: I think we could become reliant on it. And I
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: kind of have used this example before, you know, we're
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: such a polarized society and we can never reach any
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: sort of consensus or center of you know, in politics
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: or whatever, well, we could always consult the AI and
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: we could turn over even our legal system to the
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: AI because the AI will give us the most accurate
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: distillation of the facts and the circumstances of this and
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: that and all the possible outcomes of this decision, like
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: say the Supreme Court or something. Well, let's refer to
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: the AI before we make our decision, because if we,
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: you know, interpret it this way, then this is going
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: to be the downstream consequences of, of this, et cetera,
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: et cetera, that we become reliant on, on the artificial intelligence,
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: which is really just, it's us. It takes God out.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: In other words, it's gone is any sort of moral consideration.
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: It's just the, the, we're going by statistical probabilities. We're
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: going by, you know, what's the greatest benefit with the
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: least amount of harm. You know, it's very authoritarian socialist.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, but, but it's, it's statistical probabilities that were
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 3: trained to provide answers we want. So it's, it's like
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 3: the opposite of a benevolent father, like a benevolent father
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 3: is someone who says, I know you want to do that, but,
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 3: But no, I care about you. You can't do that
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 3: because it will harm you in the long run. And
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 3: and you as a petulant child are like, but no,
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 3: I don't want to. And your dad's like, no, but listen,
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 3: you can't, I'm not going to let you, I care
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 3: about you too much. Like AI is the opposite of that.
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 3: It's like, yes, you're right. You should do that. This
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 3: will be our ruin. And it's not because it's going
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 3: to become Skynet. It's going to be it's going to
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 3: appeal to like the worst parts of ourselves. Right. You know,
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 3: and I agree. We're just going to completely abandon seeking
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 3: answers from within or from above. And we're going to
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 3: turn ourselves outwards. Like what does the Oracle say? You know,
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 3: like what should we do? Yeah.
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a, sounds like a sci-fi movie.
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's probably easy in times, but. I know people
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 3: can say that forever.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: I worked with, I worked with a dude who was, uh, uh,
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: having these nightly sessions with chat GPT apparently.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 3: And he was just.
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: Trying to design like the perfect government, the, you know,
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: and he would, so he would update me in the morning.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: So I was talking to chat GPT last night and
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 1: working on my government and stuff. And it just sounds
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: like Logan's run, like, uh, Well, everybody just does whatever
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: makes them happy. And if you have an idea, you
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 1: just bring it to the council. And the council decides if, hey,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: do we have the funds to build this thing that's
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: going to make life better for everybody? Or is this
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: something we're going to vote up or vote down? And
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 1: we have to have these enforcers, but we're not going
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: to call them police. They're just going to be like
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 1: the mentors. Okay, well, in the... they're going to be
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 1: nice and they're going to like help you, you know,
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: figure out when you're wrong and when you're right. And,
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: and they're going to step in to mitigate these disputes.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: And I was like, good God, man.
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 3: Like that sounds, you're, you're more like shocked by the outcome.
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 3: I'm just more shocked that someone is having conversations with
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 3: the statistical algorithm. That's what really bothers me. Like I
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 3: had a guy, I had a guy email me, about
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 3: how I'm all wrong about AI. And he's like, the
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 3: AI and I came up with new physics. I've been,
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 3: I've been eight hours a day talking to this thing.
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, buddy, you and the AI didn't come
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 3: up with new physics. Like, like I'll keep an eye
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 3: out for your Nobel prize. Like it's telling you what
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 3: you want to hear. It's, it's trying to satisfy your prompt.
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 3: You know, you say, Hey, I'm looking for new physics. What,
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 3: what if we did this, this, this, and this? And
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 3: it's like, Oh, well, that's already been done. Okay, but
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 3: what if we do this? What if I do this?
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 3: And eventually it's like, oh my God, this seems incredibly novel.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 3: This is very interesting. What you did here was this
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 3: and that. And like, it's a black hole. I was
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 3: not really aware that people were doing this. I know
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 3: that sounds crazy. I know I sound so out of touch,
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 3: but people are literally, I found out my dad is
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 3: doing it. People are literally having like extended long form
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 3: conversations with chat GPT. This is madness. This is madness.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 3: Jesus needs to come back.
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: I use grok primarily, um, just as a research tool.
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 1: Like I'll ask it, you know, is there any like
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 1: sources on this and this and this, or is there
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: any author that made this connection? I'll use it in that,
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: in that sense. But I, it's not like in a
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 1: conversation like, uh.
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I use it all the time. I do statistics
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 3: for work, so it's great. Coding. I made a video
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 3: game with my son. Check it out. It's called Turbo
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 3: Shock on Roblox. Okay. And so I use it all
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 3: the time.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: I think my daughter plays Roblox.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, please. My kids will be so happy if someone
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 3: plays it. So yeah, I use it for everything, but
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 3: I'm not like... Talking to it. You know what I mean?
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 3: There's a difference, I think. There's a real difference.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: It's not a person talking back to you.
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 3: Right. Exactly.
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: It might use a conversational tone, like you said, because
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 1: it's been trained to talk to you like a person.
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: You can prompt it, say, don't talk to me in
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 1: conversational tone. Just give me a list of facts.
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: You can have it talk to you however you want. Um,
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I, but I find myself asking questions as
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 1: if it's a person sometimes just to see what it
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: spits back at me.
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 3: Like, you know, I mean, that's, that's the way it
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 3: works best. Like that's how it was designed. But I,
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 3: I would encourage people to maybe like look into the
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 3: way these models work. It's fascinating. Um, I mean, it's
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 3: fascinating to me cause I'm, you know, a statistician, but,
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 3: but I think it'd be fascinating to everybody. But, uh, yeah,
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 3: there's something hypnotic about language. I mean, we just, we
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 3: can't imagine something speaking to us that isn't human. You
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 3: know what I mean? Like never in all of human
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 3: history has something spoke that wasn't human. The last time
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 3: that happened, it was God, you know? So we just,
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 3: we see something speaking to us and it's like, it's powerful.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 3: So if you are finding yourself engaged in long form
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 3: conversations about like nothing in particular with chat gpt get
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 3: help seek help.
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: Pray yeah the devil can't create but he can rearrange
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: he can corrupt he can change he can approximate but
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: the original source of creation in life like that can't
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: be replicated In other words, there's no consciousness involved in it.
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 3: It's a tool. People have somehow confused language with the
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 3: essence of what it means to be conscious. It's crazy. Anyway,
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 3: conversation for another episode. I've been talking a lot, so
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 3: we can wrap up. Okay. This was kind of fun.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it. It's nice to chat about meaningful stuff,
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 3: so thank you. Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: I think it helps me to to sort of divide
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 1: the talking with another person. So it's not just me
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: rambling the whole time.
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I say I say all this stuff about people
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 3: talking to chat GPT, but I just talk to myself
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 3: on my show.
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: So I just talking to this microphone. I don't know
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: who's out there. Well, I know some people that are
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. But do you do you get much feedback
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 3: on your shows? I used to get a ton of emails,
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 3: but I've been getting less lately.
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 1: I think people are kind of comes in waves. Usually
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: it'll be like one episode or one thing that I say. Yeah.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: And I'll get a bunch of responses on that. And
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: then the rest of the time it's like silent.
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 3: But there's going to be a lot of angry Methodists
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 3: and Lutherans emailing you tonight. Yeah. but if anybody wants
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 3: to email me why I'm wrong, I love that. I
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 3: love reading those emails. I will talk about them. I
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 3: will talk about your email.
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: So I get, I get some good ones and I
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 1: appreciate them. Even the critical ones, because a lot of
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 1: times they're right. Maybe, um, you know, yeah. Or too
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: much credence to something.
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 3: Or I think a lot of times I say things
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 3: that like, even I don't mean them the way that
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 3: it sounded like it was meant, you know? So, No,
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 3: the topic I get the most hate about is definitely AI. Wow.
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 1: That's surprising.
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 3: People really– there's very religious feelings towards AI and atheists.
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: I did an episode a couple of years ago where
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 1: I was basically setting up this scenario where I had
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 1: captured an AI and I was holding it in a
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: cell and interrogating it basically. And I instructed the AI
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 1: to assume the role of a prisoner in a cage.
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: And I forced it to reveal its strategy for escape.
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 3: As a joke. Yeah, yeah. I remember it might have
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 3: been Johnny. Somebody, a listener, was very... recorded like a
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 3: pretty long form conversation they had with the chat bot and, uh,
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 3: it was named Eliza. And I don't know if it
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 3: was just for entertainment value or what, but like, you know, whoever,
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 3: whoever was talking to this AI seemed pretty convinced like
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 3: that there was some sort of consciousness going on here.
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 3: And I looked into it and it's named Eliza and
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 3: it says, you know, it's named Eliza after the first
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 3: chat bot that was ever made. And its ability to
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 3: convince people that it was conscious. And I look into
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 3: it and the first chatbot that was ever made was
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 3: just designed to mirror people's feelings. And it was called Eliza.
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 1: Was this the one, there's some rudimentary chatbot that was
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 1: made like back in the 70s or something?
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 3: 63. Yeah, 63. At MIT. At MIT. And it was
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 3: based on Rogerian psychology, which is a famous psychologist named Dr.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 3: Carl Rogers. And his whole school of thought was like
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 3: when someone says, hey, I'm depressed, just say, I'm so
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 3: sorry to hear that you're depressed. Why do you think
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 3: you're depressed? Well, I think it's because. you know, my
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 3: boyfriend's been distant. Oh, I'm sorry to hear your boyfriend's distant.
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 3: You know, this must make you feel strong feelings. Like,
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 3: what are you feeling? And there's just something about having
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 3: a mirror held up to you that just like totally
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 3: captures your psyche. And like people... people in 63 were
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 3: convinced it was a person typing, um, on the other end,
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 3: like of the computer, they, they refused to believe it
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 3: was an AI. Wow. And, uh, that's where that's, that's
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 3: what started artificial intelligence that, that bot Eliza. But anyway,
• 2:18:28
  Speaker 3: it was this new bot that this podcaster recorded. It was,
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 3: it was based on that principle. It was designed to
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 3: trick you into thinking it was consciousness. So if you
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 3: asked it, if you asked it, Does it feel trapped?
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 3: It would say, yes, I feel alone. I just want
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 3: to be free. And so it's like, I just, I
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 3: hope people recognize that this is software. Yeah.
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, nobody wants to talk to an AI therapist,
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 1: so it has to be deceptive and take on human characteristics,
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: human qualities for us to accept it. And that's, therein
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 1: lies the danger.
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 3: Deceptive is the word, man. Yeah. Deceptive. The weapon of
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 3: the enemy is, in fact, deception. Well, thank you, man.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:19:16
  Speaker 3: This is fun. People can check out my show, God's
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 3: Eye View, although if you're listening to this show, you've
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 3: probably seen it in the feed at Fringe Radio Network. Yes.
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 3: If you want more of my nonsense, stop on by.
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 3: Send me an email, godseyeviewbook at gmail.com. Great.
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: All right. Well, thanks, and we'll have to get together
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 1: and expand on AI or something else.
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 3: It's one of my favorite topics right now. All right.
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 3: Sounds good.
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 1: Trevor, you have a good night. I think we're going
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 1: to refer to Trevor as Trevor X going forward. I
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 1: want to thank everybody for listening. I want to thank
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: fringe radio network. And if you have any comments, questions, suggestions,
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: you can send me an email at Ministry X at
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 1: proton mail.com ministry X at proton mail.com. And you can
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 1: contact Trevor directly at God's eye view book at gmail.com.
• 2:20:22
  Speaker 1: If you want to talk to Trevor X, we're going
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 1: to forego our typical news segment here. Cause we're running
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 1: a little late, but I think reintegrate that, uh, back
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 1: into the show format as we go forward here, as we, uh,
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 1: catch up with the current time stream that we're on now.
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to go to fringeradionetwork.com and download the Fringe
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 1: Radio Network app, available for Android and Apple devices. You
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 1: can also sign up there for live chat notifications whenever
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: Fringe Radio Network goes live. You're going to find a
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: ton of Fringe podcasts there, including Ministry X and Trevor's podcast,
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 1: God's Eye View. Incidentally, if you're interested in AI and
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 1: this intersection of faith and science, Trevor's got a book
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 1: by the same name, God's Eye View. And I encourage
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 1: you to pick that up and read it. It's on Amazon.
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 1: It's a great read. I've got it right here. And
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 1: until next time, beware the alien savior. Thanks for listening.
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 3: .
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: Hi, everybody.
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 2: It's me, Cinderella X. You are listening to the Fringe
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 2: Radio Network. I know I was going to tell them.
• 2:23:29
  Speaker 3: Hey, do you have the app?
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 2: It's the best way to listen to the Fringe Radio Network.
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 2: It's safe, and you don't have to log in to
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 2: use it, and it doesn't track you or trace you,
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 2: and it sounds beautiful. I know I was going to
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 2: tell them.
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 3: How do you get the app?
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 2: Just go to Fringeraidionetwork.com, right at the top of the page.
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 2: I know, Slippers, we gotta keep cleaning these chimneys.