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Tina and Madeleine chat digital detox, WIPs, new words and 'the muse' · The Book Deal

• 0:46
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 0:46
  Madeleine: So, um, listeners, we are on a timeframe here because it's Sunday.
• 0:51
  Madeleine: And what else do you do on a Sunday afternoon, Tina?
• 0:55
  Tina: Well, I do literally have a roast in the oven.
• 0:59
  Tina: And I, you know, my husband's very capable and I've written him a big list of what to do when, but, um, I, yes, just need to go and check on it.
• 1:08
  Madeleine: So we're going to, we're going to try and finish up this podcast before Tina needs to get her roast out of the oven.
• 1:14
  Madeleine: So we've got so much to talk multitasking, multitasking.
• 1:18
  Madeleine: We do, we have a lot.
• 1:19
  Madeleine: To chat about.
• 1:20
  Madeleine: I want to ask you, because I just think this, let's start with this, because I think this is so fun.
• 1:27
  Madeleine: You were invited to the HarperCollins, is it the HarperCollins Day or is it the Harper Day or is it the Authors
• 1:33
  Tina: Day?
• 1:34
  Tina: It's HarperCollins Author Day.
• 1:36
  Tina: So it's a, it's a really cool thing that help columns do for their authors and illustrators and there's agents there as well and publishers and all the team that work in the office down in Sydney and elsewhere.
• 1:48
  Tina: They come in as well.
• 1:50
  Tina: It's um, Yeah, so it's a yearly thing that they do, and they, um, it's a couple of presentations that are held in their offices there, um, they just give a bit of a rundown on what's happened over the last year, the market, what's selling and what's not really selling, and, um, the trends, so it's really interesting looking at it and seeing it from their point of view and just that sort of Globally, um, the impact that, um, is being had on the book market,
• 2:19
  Madeleine: So what were some of the trends, Tina?
• 2:21
  Madeleine: I'm interested.
• 2:22
  Tina: Uh, yes, one of the trends I guess that stood out to me was that YA young adult is slowly creeping back up again.
• 2:30
  Tina: Yes! That's good for you! Which is very exciting, because I love YA, I love to read YA, and I love to write YA.
• 2:36
  Tina: That's pretty exciting.
• 2:38
  Tina: Um, don't have time to write YA yet, but it's on the, it's on the horizon, hopefully, at some point.
• 2:43
  Tina: So, so that was really awesome.
• 2:45
  Tina: And then the other really super cool part about it is just, um, seeing all the other authors and meeting all the other authors that you haven't met yet, or ones that you have met, and it's a nice little catch up.
• 2:56
  Tina: You know, when you go around and you're like, Hi, I, you know, you know, each other's names.
• 3:00
  Tina: And you're like, I don't know if I've met you in person or if it's just on Instagram and socials.
• 3:05
  Tina: Um, but I feel like I know you, uh, but yeah, so that was super fun.
• 3:10
  Tina: It's that's so cool.
• 3:11
  Tina: So interestingly though, Madeline, and talking about, um, you know, meeting people on Instagram and meeting them in real life and not remembering if you've known them, if you know them in real life or not, it brings me to your Instagram ban.
• 3:26
  Madeleine: Oh
• 3:27
  Tina: yes.
• 3:28
  Tina: Yes.
• 3:28
  Tina: The self imposed.
• 3:29
  Tina: Yes.
• 3:30
  Tina: Instagram ban.
• 3:31
  Madeleine: Look at my face right now.
• 3:33
  Madeleine: Don't I look refreshed for not having gone on Instagram in three to four days.
• 3:37
  Madeleine: Like I just feel so everything feels more wholesome.
• 3:41
  Madeleine: I feel Instagram.
• 3:43
  Madeleine: It's wonderful.
• 3:44
  Madeleine: So tell me
• 3:45
  Tina: why.
• 3:46
  Tina: Tell me why you decided to ban yourself.
• 3:50
  Tina: It's a.
• 3:51
  Tina: Is it, were you finding that you were just actually spending a bit too much time on there or that it was just a time suck?
• 3:58
  Madeleine: Both.
• 3:59
  Madeleine: Uh, I felt that, um, I was, it wasn't even the time.
• 4:03
  Madeleine: I just felt my focus was slipping.
• 4:05
  Madeleine: I couldn't.
• 4:07
  Madeleine: Uh, I couldn't write or even read a book for longer than a S a small time period before I felt the inclination to check my phone.
• 4:16
  Madeleine: And I wasn't even interested in whatever I was checking.
• 4:19
  Madeleine: It was just becoming so habitual because I think so many exciting things pop up all the time.
• 4:25
  Madeleine: And, you know, you've got things, you know, it's very exciting, the Instagram world, and it's nice to feel connected and part of the community.
• 4:32
  Madeleine: I'm absolutely not discounting that.
• 4:35
  Madeleine: But I was feeling my focus was really short and I know that we're both talking about our works in progress later on as well.
• 4:42
  Madeleine: And I think that's part of it.
• 4:44
  Madeleine: I really wanted the next two months to focus on my new book that I'm writing.
• 4:50
  Madeleine: And I feel like that creative time of first writing of new words needs to.
• 4:55
  Madeleine: That focus.
• 4:57
  Madeleine: And instead of thinking about the book, I was thinking about the next Instagram post, which is, it's a creative thing, but it's not the creative thing I wanted to do.
• 5:08
  Madeleine: So I think on Wednesday, maybe, or Thursday, I said to my husband that I was just finding it really difficult to focus.
• 5:14
  Madeleine: He's like, well, why don't you go off it for a few months?
• 5:16
  Madeleine: And I said, Oh no, I can't because I have to be on there.
• 5:19
  Madeleine: And he's like, no, you don't have to.
• 5:21
  Madeleine: Um, What he said, I'll monitor it every day for you, if anything interesting pops up, I'll let you know.
• 5:28
  Madeleine: And so I, yeah, that's what I've done.
• 5:30
  Madeleine: And I've actually, I cannot check it because I've always, I always have multi factor authentication on my Instagram and I've changed the code to my husband's phone number.
• 5:41
  Madeleine: So I can't even log on.
• 5:42
  Tina: Oh, nice.
• 5:44
  Tina: That's, that's, that's dedication.
• 5:47
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 5:47
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 5:48
  Madeleine: But I must say I probably will go on out.
• 5:52
  Madeleine: Podcast socials every so often, because I still want to keep in touch with our listeners and put up our next post and do that.
• 6:00
  Madeleine: Like, I think that's fine.
• 6:01
  Madeleine: I never felt the urge to check that it was my personal Instagram.
• 6:04
  Madeleine: That was the issue.
• 6:05
  Madeleine: So yeah.
• 6:06
  Madeleine: And I feel like it's like weight off my shoulders and I'm, I don't have the same pool to pick up my phone.
• 6:12
  Madeleine: So for anyone looking for a break.
• 6:14
  Madeleine: I highly recommend it.
• 6:15
  Madeleine: Get yourself someone to monitor it for you.
• 6:17
  Madeleine: It's wonderful.
• 6:19
  Tina: That's a good idea.
• 6:20
  Tina: I have a, um, time, time limit on
• 6:24
  Madeleine: it, but all it says, if I, yeah,
• 6:26
  Tina: cause if I click on Instagram, it goes, you've reached a time limit and then I can just click ignore.
• 6:31
  Tina: Yeah.
• 6:31
  Tina: So that's what I was doing too.
• 6:33
  Tina: It doesn't really help, but I did, I realized just the other day I had notifications that would pop up on my phone, but I've turned them off now.
• 6:41
  Tina: And I, that's actually been helpful.
• 6:44
  Tina: Um, because I actually do forget about it now.
• 6:48
  Tina: If it's not there, I do forget about it a bit.
• 6:50
  Tina: But there's, I'm.
• 6:53
  Tina: Um, maybe I should do that too.
• 6:54
  Tina: I'm finding that, um, I'm it's not that I'm going into it more, but sometimes I'll pick up my phone and then, you know, 10 minutes later, as I'm scrolling through Instagram, I'm like, hang on, what did I even pick my phone up for?
• 7:08
  Tina: And it was actually like, Do my bullies order or to check my bank account or something.
• 7:13
  Tina: And I think to myself, how do I even get into Instagram?
• 7:16
  Tina: How am I even here?
• 7:18
  Tina: And it's just, it's, they've just perfected that algorithm.
• 7:21
  Tina: Haven't they?
• 7:22
  Tina: Where it just does something to your brain where you automatically just click it.
• 7:27
  Tina: Um, just have a little look.
• 7:28
  Tina: I don't know.
• 7:28
  Tina: And then like 10 minutes goes to waste.
• 7:30
  Tina: And as we know, time is very precious, especially when we're writing.
• 7:34
  Madeleine: I think it's well worth it.
• 7:36
  Madeleine: I've tried the overwrite app.
• 7:38
  Madeleine: I've tried deleting the app, but I just reinstalled it and I just overwrote it.
• 7:41
  Madeleine: So I just, I was at a point where I just had to do it.
• 7:45
  Madeleine: I need help.
• 7:46
  Madeleine: I need help.
• 7:47
  Tina: So, I don't know.
• 7:49
  Tina: So your husband's checking it.
• 7:51
  Tina: Yes.
• 7:52
  Tina: Did you give him any, um, any like rules, levels of, okay, if this person contacts me.
• 8:01
  Tina: You've got to tell me about that.
• 8:02
  Tina: But if it's this person,
• 8:04
  Madeleine: no, no, any DM I'm getting, I've just let him.
• 8:08
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 8:08
  Madeleine: No, please let me know.
• 8:09
  Madeleine: And actually I did get a very cool DM, um, a few days ago, uh, from, uh, Sophie Stern.
• 8:18
  Madeleine: So she is a.
• 8:19
  Madeleine: A writer and her book is being published.
• 8:22
  Madeleine: She's a debut author.
• 8:23
  Madeleine: Her book will be coming out in 2026.
• 8:26
  Madeleine: Can you believe that 2026 and Sophie is about to start the debut crew for 2026, which is exciting.
• 8:34
  Madeleine: So if there's any listeners who are listening to this, please reach out to Sophie Stern and, uh, yeah, she's going to start the crew.
• 8:41
  Tina: And Sophie's on Instagram.
• 8:43
  Tina: Is that how you contact her?
• 8:44
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 8:45
  Madeleine: That's
• 8:45
  Tina: pretty exciting because there's, yeah, there's, It's literally authors right now signing deals for 2026 and they've probably already signed them because as we know, it can be a couple of years.
• 8:54
  Madeleine: We need to get a move on Tina.
• 8:57
  Madeleine: We need to get our second or your fourth book.
• 9:01
  Madeleine: My second, we need to get moving and hustling.
• 9:04
  Madeleine: I think
• 9:07
  Tina: that's going to think about how far away that'll be, but that'd be like, It's 27 probably.
• 9:11
  Tina: Oh, don't say
• 9:12
  Madeleine: that! Feels so far away.
• 9:14
  Madeleine: You know those like, book a year authors?
• 9:17
  Madeleine: Like, I always imagined myself I'd be that type of rolling thing, but it's, it's, I think it's pretty difficult and pretty churning to get that book a year.
• 9:27
  Madeleine: Lot of respect for authors that can do it.
• 9:30
  Tina: Yeah, but you could.
• 9:33
  Tina: Do it.
• 9:33
  Tina: You seem to write pretty fast.
• 9:35
  Tina: Maybe this is our natural segue into our WIPs, our work in progress that we want to talk about.
• 9:41
  Tina: So you, you've got one book that's Um, signed and is being released next year and you've got another full book that you've written.
• 9:51
  Tina: Yes.
• 9:51
  Tina: A full manuscript.
• 9:52
  Tina: And now you're working on something brand new.
• 9:55
  Tina: Mm.
• 9:56
  Tina: Uh, but you're going really well with that.
• 9:58
  Tina: You're working on this, smashing those numbers out.
• 10:02
  Madeleine: Yeah, it's, it's interesting, isn't it?
• 10:04
  Madeleine: Um, approach to new words.
• 10:07
  Madeleine: Um, I'm trying to think if it's, it's, if it's been changing since the first book and, uh, I think it has, I think you're right.
• 10:15
  Madeleine: The speed.
• 10:16
  Madeleine: Has increased.
• 10:17
  Madeleine: Cause I think I took a lot longer to write the first draft of the butterfly women probably took me about 12 months.
• 10:24
  Madeleine: Um, that's where, yeah.
• 10:26
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 10:26
  Tina: That's really good.
• 10:27
  Tina: Cause how many words is the butterfly?
• 10:29
  Madeleine: Well, at the back then it was sitting at about 80, 000 and now it's about 94, 93, I think.
• 10:36
  Madeleine: So it's, it's gone up in size.
• 10:38
  Madeleine: So it took, yeah, about 12 months to write the first draft and a few months to edit.
• 10:42
  Madeleine: Uh, and then my second book, Uh, so this is, so I actually read it last year and I wrote it in about seven weeks.
• 10:50
  Madeleine: That was about 80, 000 words, but that was different.
• 10:53
  Madeleine: I feel because it was contemporary fiction and I don't know, I was talking actually with, um, like Catherine and Colette and I do a bit of that coaching session.
• 11:01
  Madeleine: Then we'll, we'll hopefully get Catherine on the podcast to talk about that.
• 11:04
  Madeleine: Um, but we're talking about, she said that it sounds like I have Muses that speak to me, uh, in my writing and I need to get that out.
• 11:12
  Madeleine: And I, I definitely do feel like, I feel like last year I had the muses speaking at me going, go, go, go, go, go.
• 11:19
  Madeleine: And I just had to do it.
• 11:20
  Madeleine: So, um, I.
• 11:23
  Madeleine: Was almost finished.
• 11:24
  Madeleine: And I did take a couple of weeks of work even to finish it.
• 11:26
  Madeleine: Cause I was so involved and I couldn't, yeah, I, I just had some spare leaves and I was like, well, I have to get this done.
• 11:32
  Madeleine: And then I had a looming trip to Japan as well booked and that was approaching it and I was really close.
• 11:38
  Madeleine: So I took my laptop with me on the plane and I spent the 10 hours finishing it.
• 11:43
  Madeleine: And I finished it on a, on a plane trip to Japan.
• 11:45
  Madeleine: So that was, did that, that was weird.
• 11:48
  Madeleine: I don't think I've ever had like that.
• 11:50
  Madeleine: I don't think that.
• 11:51
  Madeleine: Experience will repeat again because it just felt all very different, but then this third book, the way I've approached it is interesting because I thought because it's historical fiction, like I've always said that I would spend months doing heaps of research and feel like I know everything about the history at that time.
• 12:11
  Madeleine: And then I will sit down and write it, but it's actually, and that's what I did with butterfly women.
• 12:17
  Madeleine: But this time it's been so different.
• 12:19
  Madeleine: I, uh, started, yeah, researching and then the story just came, maybe it's that sort of muse thinking and I just had to write the story.
• 12:27
  Madeleine: And so now I'm up to about 29, 000 words.
• 12:29
  Madeleine: And I started it probably six weeks ago, I'd say.
• 12:34
  Madeleine: So I'm, my aim is to get it.
• 12:37
  Madeleine: This draft done by the end of the year.
• 12:39
  Madeleine: And I'm not, and I guess why I like to do it quickly is because it's the stories in my head right now.
• 12:46
  Madeleine: And so I feel like if I was to go slowly, I'd have to go back and reread all those extra words, whereas I can just push forward.
• 12:53
  Madeleine: That makes sense.
• 12:54
  Tina: What about, what about you?
• 12:55
  Tina: It does make sense.
• 12:56
  Tina: Um, I find that really interesting as well, because I don't write historical fiction.
• 13:00
  Tina: Um, and like you said, though, it's different each time.
• 13:03
  Tina: Um, whether you have the storyline first.
• 13:08
  Tina: And maybe based in a particular era or time, and then you research to make it historically accurate for that time, or whether there's something or a moment in history, which I think is what happened with the Butterfly Women Rides.
• 13:27
  Tina: You know, research the story, um, or something that happened back in time that then created the rest of the story for you.
• 13:35
  Tina: Is that right?
• 13:35
  Tina: Is that what happened?
• 13:36
  Tina: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Tina: Okay.
• 13:37
  Tina: So I find that really interesting and I guess it can happen both ways.
• 13:39
  Tina: And so it's happened with, it's kind of happened.
• 13:42
  Tina: Again, as it, well, you've sort of done some research in time and then it's just something about, it's just flipped on a switch of this story that you just.
• 13:51
  Madeleine: Well, for me, it's not the story that comes first, it's the characters and then the story develops around the characters.
• 13:57
  Madeleine: Like always character first, never story comes to me.
• 14:01
  Madeleine: So I can, I'll have to show you in person.
• 14:05
  Madeleine: I have a notes on my phone where.
• 14:08
  Madeleine: At the start, I have the character.
• 14:10
  Madeleine: I know who she is.
• 14:11
  Madeleine: I know who the main character is, but then I'm trying to work out the story or what's going to happen and who she is.
• 14:18
  Madeleine: And it just changes like every, and you can just scroll right through and it's changing.
• 14:22
  Madeleine: So I actually had no, cause I'm a, I'm a pencil.
• 14:24
  Madeleine: I don't know what the story is.
• 14:26
  Madeleine: So yeah, I don't have the story first.
• 14:29
  Madeleine: I always have the characters first.
• 14:31
  Madeleine: Is that different for you?
• 14:32
  Madeleine: Um,
• 14:35
  Tina: sometimes, I don't know.
• 14:37
  Tina: I think sometimes it's just.
• 14:38
  Tina: It comes together at the same time.
• 14:41
  Tina: I don't think I've strictly been a character first though.
• 14:43
  Tina: I think I've had more of an idea of a plot before I've written it and I haven't had to think about what I want this character to be though.
• 14:53
  Tina: That character's just sort of there.
• 14:56
  Tina: That's the person that's best for it.
• 14:59
  Tina: Definitely the main character anyway.
• 15:01
  Tina: Some of the supporting characters, I might work on them a little bit more to play a particular role, I guess, in the story.
• 15:09
  Tina: But yeah, so I'm writing new words now.
• 15:12
  Tina: Yes.
• 15:12
  Tina: For the first time.
• 15:14
  Tina: So long, so long I've been working.
• 15:18
  Tina: Well, at the beginning of the year, I, um, again, sort of like what you just the storyline just came to me and I just wrote it and just.
• 15:27
  Tina: It just was there.
• 15:28
  Tina: Um, and I did, you know, about 10, 000 words on that manuscript, which was, um, middle grade.
• 15:34
  Tina: So it'll be about 40, 000.
• 15:36
  Tina: It's about a quarter of it.
• 15:37
  Tina: And, um, but then just sat on that for a while because of so many edits,
• 15:42
  Madeleine: um,
• 15:43
  Tina: for my books that are coming out next year.
• 15:45
  Madeleine: And that's hard, isn't it?
• 15:46
  Madeleine: Because you, you get pulled out and then it's really hard to go back in, I think.
• 15:50
  Madeleine: And perhaps that's why this year we've kind of waited till now to write new words.
• 15:55
  Madeleine: Because right now we're in that state where we've just like, we've pushed it all away and we can got that sort of that time.
• 16:02
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 16:02
  Madeleine: Yeah,
• 16:03
  Tina: that's right.
• 16:04
  Tina: Yeah.
• 16:05
  Tina: Yeah, definitely.
• 16:06
  Tina: And I'm an everyday writer.
• 16:08
  Tina: So if I'm not working on edits for these, which is coming out next year.
• 16:14
  Tina: Then I'm, then I'm still writing something, I have to be writing something.
• 16:18
  Tina: And so that's why this, um, this current manuscript that I'm writing, um, has been very exciting, but it has been weird to have a big break from it.
• 16:27
  Tina: And this one's been really weird as well, I was talking to another author friend recently about it.
• 16:32
  Tina: We're talking about plot, plotting and pantsing and all those sorts of things.
• 16:35
  Tina: And I think just every book that I write is different.
• 16:38
  Tina: And this is, I think I've mentioned to you.
• 16:42
  Tina: I guess you could call it fully, fully plotted or is it someone's zero draft or vomit draft as I've heard people call it when they just go bleh and they just kind of like spew it all out on the page and because I've kind of done that.
• 16:58
  Tina: And now I'm coming back and going, so I've kind of just, it's all flown out of my head.
• 17:06
  Tina: Um, and then I'm just going back and actually writing the same way.
• 17:08
  Madeleine: So how long did that take you to do?
• 17:11
  Madeleine: Um,
• 17:15
  Tina: not that long.
• 17:16
  Tina: I actually, so it was a while ago now since I've done it, but probably, but probably, um, Oh, you know, a couple of days or so altogether of like full days.
• 17:25
  Tina: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Madeleine: Um,
• 17:31
  Tina: that was of that just like spewed out stuff that I did.
• 17:34
  Tina: Okay.
• 17:35
  Tina: Not
• 17:35
  Madeleine: like a full zero draft, but just like an outline, a plot
• 17:39
  Tina: outline?
• 17:40
  Tina: Was about 27, 000 words.
• 17:41
  Tina: What?
• 17:42
  Tina: You did 27, 000 words in two days?
• 17:45
  Tina: No, no, no.
• 17:45
  Tina: A bit more than that.
• 17:46
  Madeleine: I thought I was when I was like, yeah, I've done 29, 000 words in six weeks.
• 17:50
  Madeleine: I was like, feeling pretty chuffed.
• 17:52
  Madeleine: You've done 27, 000 words in four days.
• 17:55
  Tina: Yeah, probably.
• 17:57
  Tina: But because Madeline, this story is just literally in my head, right?
• 18:01
  Tina: So it's like, if someone said to you now, sit down and just, just tell me really quickly the story of, um, or each scene in, I don't know, what's your favorite movie or a really well known movie?
• 18:10
  Tina: Right.
• 18:11
  Madeleine: Pride and Prejudice.
• 18:12
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 18:12
  Tina: Pride and Prejudice.
• 18:12
  Tina: Just like, you know, You, it's all there, right?
• 18:16
  Tina: Because it's sitting in your head and you already know it.
• 18:18
  Tina: And it's, it just needs to get out onto the page.
• 18:21
  Tina: Okay.
• 18:21
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 18:22
  Madeleine: This is crazy to me.
• 18:23
  Madeleine: So do you, I
• 18:24
  Tina: haven't ever done that before.
• 18:26
  Tina: So this is the first time you've done it.
• 18:28
  Tina: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Tina: With this one, it's yeah.
• 18:29
  Tina: With this one, it just, it's just all there, but as I'm writing it though, These other really cool things come to me with like the plot.
• 18:37
  Tina: And I'm like, Oh, that'd be really good.
• 18:39
  Tina: And I add that, or then I'll be like, Oh, I should put that in before.
• 18:42
  Tina: And cause I'm in script, I just go back to that scene and click on the scene and put it in and then go back.
• 18:47
  Tina: And, and honestly, it is so, when I say.
• 18:50
  Tina: Zero draft format draft is a hundred percent that it's literally like my brain coming out to the page you're transcribing this
• 18:56
  Madeleine: like literally.
• 18:57
  Madeleine: Yep.
• 18:57
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 18:57
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 18:58
  Madeleine: So are you describing the story rather than telling the story initially then?
• 19:02
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 19:02
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 19:02
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 19:03
  Tina: 100%.
• 19:04
  Tina: Wow.
• 19:05
  Tina: It's, it's nowhere near like, A story, a fully well written story means it's 100 percent get the idea out because it's like this, you know, like a movie playing out in my head.
• 19:17
  Tina: So,
• 19:18
  Madeleine: so when you, when you write, can you, can you picture that?
• 19:21
  Madeleine: So you see, you see it as a movie when you write.
• 19:24
  Madeleine: That's interesting.
• 19:25
  Madeleine: Do you?
• 19:26
  Madeleine: No,
• 19:30
  Tina: but I don't know if I do.
• 19:31
  Tina: I don't know if I do that with all of them.
• 19:33
  Tina: I think I
• 19:33
  Madeleine: do It's so interesting.
• 19:36
  Madeleine: I'm trying to think.
• 19:37
  Madeleine: Uh, no, sometimes I just, this is going to sound really weird, but like sometimes I'm like, I feel like I'm the character and I'm kind of just like mouthing the words as I type them.
• 19:53
  Tina: I pull, I have to be careful if I'm running in cafes.
• 19:57
  Tina: Okay.
• 19:57
  Tina: Because I pull these faces.
• 20:01
  Tina: The really odd faces.
• 20:03
  Tina: I mean, I'm not writing sex things though, am I Madeline?
• 20:06
  Tina: So that's something that you've really got to be careful about.
• 20:08
  Tina: But I just, I pull really weird faces.
• 20:14
  Tina: So you do that too?
• 20:15
  Madeleine: Yeah, I think I do.
• 20:16
  Madeleine: I mean, it's hard to know.
• 20:17
  Madeleine: Maybe we need to record ourselves.
• 20:19
  Madeleine: writing and then watch it back.
• 20:21
  Madeleine: I actually did do that for this little day in a life of a full time author, which was my dream day.
• 20:26
  Madeleine: Uh, but it's not every day, everybody, everyone's like, you're so productive.
• 20:29
  Madeleine: I'm like, yeah, well, you know, Instagram versus reality.
• 20:33
  Madeleine: Um, but yeah, I, I, I didn't watch the full thing back because who watches themselves.
• 20:41
  Madeleine: writing for an hour.
• 20:42
  Madeleine: Like that's, you've got to have other better things to do, I think.
• 20:45
  Madeleine: But yeah, I'm pretty sure I would pull some crazy weird faces.
• 20:49
  Madeleine: This is so interesting.
• 20:50
  Madeleine: This is fascinating.
• 20:52
  Madeleine: So you're going to write with my eyes closed.
• 20:54
  Tina: No, really?
• 20:54
  Tina: Yes.
• 20:55
  Tina: I just thought about that then.
• 20:57
  Tina: I write with my eyes closed because you're seeing the movie in my head.
• 21:03
  Tina: Lastly, I can touch type very fast.
• 21:05
  Tina: Yeah.
• 21:06
  Tina: That's the other thing that's helpful with that, but I really do, and I, I close them because I'm so, I can just see it there and my fingers can't type fast enough to get the words to the page.
• 21:16
  Madeleine: Wow.
• 21:17
  Madeleine: Wow.
• 21:18
  Madeleine: That's amazing.
• 21:19
  Madeleine: So it's your very much then.
• 21:21
  Madeleine: Story focused, story driven, you've, that's the thing that comes to you first.
• 21:25
  Madeleine: Whereas that could be, I could never do what you've just done because I don't know what the story is because I need to know who the character is and what is motivating them and what conflicts there are and what tensions there are that will impact the character.
• 21:40
  Madeleine: And I was actually having this really good discussion with my husband about the character, like first draft characters.
• 21:46
  Madeleine: I don't know if you find this, but in all my first drafts, there's The main protagonist I find is always a bit passive
• 21:56
  Tina: because
• 21:56
  Madeleine: she's react, she or he, uh, they're reacting to something happening around them because I'm still working out what, what is happening.
• 22:05
  Madeleine: And so it's almost like my reaction, I'm like, yeah.
• 22:09
  Madeleine: And so, whereas they're not, they're not driving the story that just, they're there and the story is happening in the beginning, but then they
• 22:16
  Tina: do.
• 22:17
  Madeleine: But I have that's in the second, that's the second verse or second draft.
• 22:20
  Madeleine: I'll then have to come back and make some tweaks to make sure, cause I know now what's going to happen.
• 22:25
  Madeleine: So that it appears that they're actually driving some of that stuff.
• 22:30
  Madeleine: And actually I've just noticed my protagonist has been so passive in the last few chapters.
• 22:35
  Madeleine: And so I actually called out her.
• 22:37
  Madeleine: Passivity.
• 22:39
  Madeleine: And so she's now becoming aware of her.
• 22:41
  Madeleine: And so, um, that's more of a flag for me when I come back to say, okay, time to fix this.
• 22:47
  Tina: Oh, okay.
• 22:49
  Tina: Okay.
• 22:49
  Tina: That's a really good top tip for aspiring authors who are, you know, learning, you know, the, the ropes of writing and things like that is, um, your main character.
• 22:59
  Tina: You know, passive, it's not because some people are just passive.
• 23:03
  Tina: That's right.
• 23:03
  Tina: That's just their characters.
• 23:04
  Tina: So that's fine.
• 23:05
  Tina: But the storyline, it can't just be happening around them.
• 23:09
  Tina: No, they have to actively be influencing that storyline and making decisions.
• 23:15
  Tina: That's right.
• 23:15
  Tina: It can be a passive personality.
• 23:18
  Tina: Um, but they actually have to be making the, um, the decisions.
• 23:21
  Tina: That's my top tip for today.
• 23:22
  Tina: Yes.
• 23:23
  Madeleine: That's a great tip.
• 23:24
  Madeleine: I don't have one yet.
• 23:25
  Madeleine: I'll hopefully have one as we, before we finish, but, um,
• 23:28
  Tina: yeah, it's so interesting.
• 23:30
  Tina: So there's, so you can do, and I've tried to do them, but I cannot, um, there's these things.
• 23:39
  Tina: There's so many resources out there.
• 23:41
  Tina: And some of them, uh, are about your character and developing your character.
• 23:48
  Tina: Um, sometimes have you seen these before where they're like interview questions?
• 23:51
  Tina: Oh, yeah.
• 23:52
  Tina: So it's like pretend to interview your character and what would they do in this situation?
• 23:55
  Tina: Um, you know, here's practical things.
• 23:58
  Tina: Like how old were they?
• 23:59
  Tina: Where are they from?
• 24:00
  Tina: What's their background religion?
• 24:01
  Tina: What's their family?
• 24:01
  Tina: What's their family?
• 24:01
  Tina: What's their upbringing?
• 24:02
  Tina: Do they swear?
• 24:03
  Tina: Do they not swear?
• 24:04
  Tina: What would they do if, in an emergency?
• 24:07
  Tina: All those kinds of things I can tell you a little bit about so you can think about what the characters like.
• 24:12
  Tina: And I've tried to do that before writing.
• 24:14
  Tina: I could do it after I write the whole thing, but I've tried to do it before and to like plot them and it just doesn't really, because you don't know, you don't know who they are until you get to the end.
• 24:22
  Tina: Whereas I think people really do
• 24:24
  Madeleine: like, I think I could do that straight away.
• 24:27
  Madeleine: Like before I write the story, I think I don't do them.
• 24:30
  Madeleine: But, but I have a very clear sense of who the character is before I start writing.
• 24:35
  Madeleine: Yeah, like very, very, very clear.
• 24:37
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 24:39
  Madeleine: And I guess as I'm going through, because I'm, I panset, I do get to like, um, you know, how you get to like two paths and your, your character can make that choice.
• 24:49
  Madeleine: And I always in my head go now, make sure the character is making this choice.
• 24:54
  Madeleine: It's not you making the choice that what you would do have to go No, no.
• 24:58
  Madeleine: What would this character do?
• 24:59
  Madeleine: What would that character do?
• 25:00
  Madeleine: And then I have to, I guess that's kind of a little exercise in working out that.
• 25:06
  Tina: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Tina: Oh, interesting.
• 25:07
  Tina: Well, another top tip for people learning, you know, the ropes of writing is to have a look at those.
• 25:13
  Tina: I can't think of any names, but maybe we can put it, I'll have a look and put Some links in the show notes to those sort of, um, yeah, the exercises.
• 25:21
  Tina: Yeah.
• 25:21
  Tina: And I did a course with, um, Australian white writer center about developing characters as well.
• 25:28
  Tina: And yeah, they had lots of those sorts of questionnaires and stuff like that, which was really interesting.
• 25:33
  Tina: And also a Curtis Brown creative one once before as well, which I found really interesting.
• 25:38
  Tina: So I could link to them.
• 25:39
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Madeleine: Awesome.
• 25:40
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 25:40
  Madeleine: I think it's super, super helpful.
• 25:42
  Madeleine: No, this is yeah.
• 25:43
  Madeleine: So great.
• 25:45
  Tina: So, but I also.
• 25:47
  Tina: Oh, you're going to laugh,
• 25:48
  Madeleine: but I also started writing something else.
• 25:50
  Madeleine: Wait, hang on.
• 25:52
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 25:52
  Madeleine: So hang on.
• 25:53
  Madeleine: All right.
• 25:53
  Madeleine: So just for me and for our listeners, let's just, let's just work out what is it?
• 25:58
  Madeleine: We need a segment.
• 25:59
  Madeleine: What is Tina doing?
• 26:00
  Madeleine: She has three books coming out next year with Harper Collins.
• 26:05
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 26:06
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:06
  Madeleine: Signed done.
• 26:08
  Madeleine: You have a young adult book that you've half written.
• 26:12
  Madeleine: Uh,
• 26:14
  Tina: I've, I've two that I've written.
• 26:17
  Tina: Yeah.
• 26:17
  Madeleine: Oh my
• 26:17
  Tina: God.
• 26:18
  Tina: I just want to get back to an edit.
• 26:20
  Tina: Yeah.
• 26:20
  Tina: You've
• 26:21
  Madeleine: got two young adult books that are currently written that you have to edit.
• 26:26
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:27
  Madeleine: You have this third book, 27, 000 words.
• 26:31
  Madeleine: Of which is the story and that is a
• 26:35
  Tina: middle grade.
• 26:36
  Tina: That's my whip.
• 26:37
  Tina: Yep.
• 26:37
  Tina: That's your middle grade.
• 26:38
  Tina: A middle grade.
• 26:39
  Tina: Yeah.
• 26:39
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:40
  Madeleine: And now what is this fourth book, Tina?
• 26:42
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:42
  Madeleine: Nuts.
• 26:42
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:43
  Tina: So this is what happened.
• 26:44
  Tina: And this was actually a really good, um, sort of teaching moment for my children too, who probably didn't even listen to me when I was trying to teach it to them, but that's fine.
• 26:53
  Tina: Um, so.
• 26:55
  Tina: But also for adults, right?
• 26:56
  Tina: I think it's for all of us, especially talking about social media bans.
• 27:01
  Tina: So as we just spoke about, I went to Sydney recently for the HarperCollins author day and in the taxi from the airport to the office in Sydney, uh, I was sort of just doing a few things on my phone, you know, while I was in the taxi.
• 27:16
  Tina: And, um, I kind of just got a bit sick of looking at the screen because I think I was watching something on the fly and everything like that.
• 27:23
  Tina: I don't know about you, but sometimes I just feel a bit gross just looking at it all the time.
• 27:27
  Tina: Yeah.
• 27:27
  Tina: So I thought, Oh, just look out the window.
• 27:29
  Tina: I don't get to Sydney often either.
• 27:30
  Tina: So I'll look around and I just saw something, uh, uh, we drove past something, just this spot right in the middle of the city.
• 27:40
  Tina: And I was like, that looks really interesting.
• 27:42
  Tina: And I won't say what it is because it's a big part of what the book's about.
• 27:45
  Tina: No, I can't.
• 27:46
  Madeleine: Oh, oh my
• 27:48
  Tina: gosh, you're going to leave us hanging.
• 27:50
  Tina: Yes, I am.
• 27:51
  Tina: But, but it, what I saw was it just.
• 27:55
  Tina: This idea in my head, this storyline idea.
• 28:00
  Tina: And by the time I got to the hotel, I had already filled my phone with notes.
• 28:06
  Tina: It, and again, it's, it is like a movie in my head.
• 28:11
  Tina: Like it, it was, and I'm super, super excited about it.
• 28:16
  Tina: Um, so I've had to, and I don't know how many words I've written, but it's a few where I just needed, I had to spend a couple of days just getting it out.
• 28:24
  Tina: Wait, another one.
• 28:27
  Tina: Oh, but it's not that much.
• 28:28
  Tina: But I think I said to you like, I'm like, I'm just going to, how many?
• 28:32
  Tina: It's how, oh, I can't remember.
• 28:34
  Tina: I'll have to go and have a look.
• 28:34
  Tina: So ipl, like I just got it all out.
• 28:37
  Tina: All the major, major dot point.
• 28:38
  Tina: Again, it's just like my brain, um, thoughts sping out through my fingers into the, into the computer.
• 28:45
  Tina: Just this idea.
• 28:46
  Tina: I just needed to get it out.
• 28:47
  Tina: 'cause it's so, I think it's, I actually.
• 28:49
  Tina: You know, you get really excited about, sometimes you have ideas to things and you go, Oh, that's kind of cool.
• 28:54
  Tina: Can we work on that?
• 28:55
  Tina: See how that goes.
• 28:55
  Tina: Sometimes you get super excited.
• 28:58
  Madeleine: The muses, it's the muses muse
• 29:02
  Tina: and it, I desperately wanted to write it while it was fresh, but at the same time, I know I'm writing this other, I'm in the middle of another middle grade.
• 29:11
  Tina: That I'm also super excited about.
• 29:12
  Tina: So I've had to just dump as much as possible out onto the page.
• 29:16
  Tina: So when I finish the one that I'm working on there, I can go back to that and hopefully you'll be fresh.
• 29:22
  Madeleine: Oh, that's so interesting.
• 29:23
  Madeleine: I, I, okay.
• 29:24
  Madeleine: I can see now why you dump you, you info dump onto a page.
• 29:28
  Madeleine: I don't
• 29:28
  Tina: want to forget
• 29:29
  Madeleine: anything.
• 29:29
  Madeleine: I just think,
• 29:30
  Tina: Oh, this is a really cool thing.
• 29:32
  Tina: Quick, just dump it.
• 29:32
  Tina: And it can make no sense.
• 29:34
  Madeleine: Um,
• 29:36
  Tina: Make sense
• 29:36
  Madeleine: to you though.
• 29:37
  Madeleine: That's the way.
• 29:37
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Tina: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Tina: When I, hopefully it'll make sense when I get back to it.
• 29:41
  Tina: Otherwise that might be a bit tricky, but anyway, so I've been doing lots of new words and it's been really cool because, um, yes, I've loved working on my, uh, and I still have more to do.
• 29:53
  Tina: I've still got lots of edits that'll be coming in, but.
• 29:57
  Tina: it has been exciting to get these new ideas.
• 30:00
  Madeleine: That's so cool.
• 30:02
  Madeleine: Love it.
• 30:02
  Madeleine: This is great.
• 30:03
  Madeleine: This is great.
• 30:04
  Madeleine: Well, I think we need to have like a, um, a weekly segment where, where is Tina up to?
• 30:11
  Madeleine: How many books is she writing now?
• 30:13
  Tina: What new book is she written this week?
• 30:15
  Tina: No, uh, no, just these ones I will be focusing on.
• 30:18
  Madeleine: And we should say as well, this episode's gone a bit longer than what we normally would because we thought Surprise, surprise.
• 30:25
  Madeleine: Surprise, surprise.
• 30:26
  Madeleine: We thought that we will, um, we have so much to talk about every fortnight.
• 30:32
  Madeleine: So maybe we'll start doing these Um, on the other side of each interview.
• 30:37
  Madeleine: Uh, and so we'll have, you'll hear more from us and I think it's definitely going to be important sort of next year as well.
• 30:43
  Madeleine: We'll have lots of updates, um, as we progress through 2025 and with our debuts,
• 30:49
  Tina: Yes.
• 30:49
  Tina: And we are going to do some planning for next year.
• 30:53
  Tina: We've already pretty much booked out with guests for, um, next season.
• 30:58
  Tina: And, um, almost the one after that.
• 30:59
  Tina: So.
• 31:00
  Tina: But if anyone, any other listeners have anything that they would like us to cover and to chat about, uh, definitely when I chat to authors and they do have lots of ideas.
• 31:10
  Tina: So send them, send them through to us on our Instagram.
• 31:14
  Tina: Madeline won't read it because she's has a, she's a self imposed ban, but I will.
• 31:19
  Tina: And her husband might as well.
• 31:21
  Tina: So.
• 31:23
  Tina: Hey, does anyone also do the admin for the book deal?
• 31:25
  Tina: Yeah, I should ask him.
• 31:26
  Tina: Instagram, as well as your personal one.
• 31:30
  Tina: Uh, or emailing us, uh, the book deal podcast at outlook.
• 31:35
  Tina: com or either myself.
• 31:38
  Tina: Uh, or Madeline or no, not Madeline that's right, but myself on Instagram and, um, yeah.
• 31:44
  Tina: Any of your ideas or suggestions because we'll try and, uh, we'll try and write them in for next year.
• 31:49
  Madeleine: Yes, that please do.
• 31:50
  Madeleine: We were, we are very open to talking about anything.
• 31:53
  Madeleine: So, so drop us a line if there's anything you're interested in.
• 31:57
  Madeleine: All right.
• 31:58
  Madeleine: Thanks, Tina.
• 31:59
  Madeleine: That's a wrap.