Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / The Night Ellen Was Kidnapped

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The Night Ellen Was Kidnapped · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
0:07
Speaker 2: He just like reached through the window and put a
0:10
Speaker 2: gun to my head and told me not to look
0:13
Speaker 2: at him or he would shoot me.
0:30
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.
0:33
Speaker 1: I'm Patia Eaton. This week, we're speaking with a listener
0:36
Speaker 1: of the show. Ellen tells us about something that happened
0:39
Speaker 1: to her back when she was in college. She endured
0:42
Speaker 1: a bizarre and terrifying kidnapping. There's a lot that's noteworthy
0:45
Speaker 1: about Ellen's story, especially how she reacted in the moment
0:49
Speaker 1: and the ripple effects of this event in her life.
0:52
Speaker 1: Let's get into it.
0:57
Speaker 2: My name is Ellen. I am originally from Columbus, Ohio,
1:02
Speaker 2: and I currently live in Cleveland, Ohio. So Ohio state
1:06
Speaker 2: is there. So it's definitely got the feel of like
1:08
Speaker 2: a college town. Like where we lived was a pretty
1:11
Speaker 2: like safe area, you know, we were outside a lot,
1:14
Speaker 2: like just running around and having fun. So I went
1:17
Speaker 2: away to college in Pennsylvania for a couple of years
1:19
Speaker 2: and I was playing soccer at a small private school there,
1:23
Speaker 2: and then I decided to move back to Columbus. I
1:28
Speaker 2: just wanted to be closer to my family, and I'd
1:31
Speaker 2: also had like a sports injury and wanted to save
1:34
Speaker 2: some money.
1:35
Speaker 3: This was two thousand and six. Ellen was twenty two
1:38
Speaker 3: and working her way through college at Ohio State, and
1:41
Speaker 3: when she wasn't in class, she was waiting tables at
1:43
Speaker 3: a local Applebee's.
1:46
Speaker 2: So, like there's a bit of like a camaraderie. I
1:49
Speaker 2: think that develops, especially when you're working in like the
1:51
Speaker 2: serving industry, just because it's not like the most fun thing.
1:56
Speaker 2: You know, customers can be tough, and so I was
1:59
Speaker 2: just good friend with a lot of the people I
2:01
Speaker 2: worked with, and so there were a lot of times
2:03
Speaker 2: where we would all, like after a shift, everybody would
2:06
Speaker 2: go out just you know, to go off steam and
2:09
Speaker 2: hang out. So I was pretty much just working hard
2:12
Speaker 2: in school and then working at the restaurant, and then
2:16
Speaker 2: when I wasn't doing either of those things, I was
2:18
Speaker 2: usually you know, out with friends.
2:20
Speaker 3: Take us to January two thousand and six, the day
2:25
Speaker 3: in question. What do you remember about that day?
2:29
Speaker 2: So it was a Saturday, and I was working a
2:33
Speaker 2: double shift, so you know, the lunch shift and then
2:35
Speaker 2: the evening shift. In general, I remember having kind of
2:38
Speaker 2: like a bad day, like I can't remember exactly, but
2:40
Speaker 2: I think I had gone to like get breakfast or
2:43
Speaker 2: lunch before my shift, and I saw like an ex
2:45
Speaker 2: boyfriend with a girl, or like there was something that
2:49
Speaker 2: happened that I was kind of upset, you know, when
2:51
Speaker 2: I went into work. And then January is just kind
2:54
Speaker 2: of a slow time in the restaurant industry because the
2:57
Speaker 2: holidays have just passed. So the day was like pretty slow.
3:01
Speaker 2: I didn't make a lot of money my shift, and
3:03
Speaker 2: then a group of friends who worked there but weren't
3:06
Speaker 2: working that day came into the restaurant just to like
3:10
Speaker 2: hang out, have a drink sea people, and so I
3:13
Speaker 2: talked to them and then we agreed that since my
3:15
Speaker 2: shift was almost over, that I would just join them
3:18
Speaker 2: and then we would go out to like another restaurant
3:21
Speaker 2: that was nearby. And my shift ended around nine pm
3:24
Speaker 2: is when I got cut and put it out.
3:28
Speaker 3: Across from the Applebee's was a big shopping center with
3:30
Speaker 3: a movie theater, restaurants, and stores. This is where Ellen
3:34
Speaker 3: and her friends planned to go. But separating the Applebee's
3:37
Speaker 3: from the shopping center was this busy four lane road
3:40
Speaker 3: not super pedestrian friendly. They would drive, not walk, across
3:44
Speaker 3: the street. It was also January in Ohio, so by
3:48
Speaker 3: nine pm it was cold and dark outside. Ellen and
3:51
Speaker 3: her friends left the apple Bee's together. Her friends, who
3:54
Speaker 3: hadn't been working that night, parked in the apple Bee's
3:57
Speaker 3: parking lot, but not Ellen. Employees on shift typically parked
4:01
Speaker 3: in a different area behind Applebee's, across a service road
4:05
Speaker 3: and into this parking lot of a strip mall. Ellen
4:09
Speaker 3: and her friends all hustled through the cold to their cars,
4:12
Speaker 3: and her friend said they'd see her across the street
4:14
Speaker 3: in a few minutes.
4:17
Speaker 2: So even though we walked out together, they walked kind
4:20
Speaker 2: of quickly. Their cars were right there. And then I
4:22
Speaker 2: walked by myself in the back area the back parking
4:26
Speaker 2: lot to my car, which was something I did all
4:28
Speaker 2: the time, so it wasn't like weird. And even though
4:31
Speaker 2: it was dark, it was nine pm, and you know,
4:34
Speaker 2: like I was twenty two, so that was like five
4:37
Speaker 2: pm for me back then, you know, like it didn't
4:40
Speaker 2: seem late to me. So I was definitely like feeling
4:44
Speaker 2: pretty comfortable, you know, just doing something pretty normal and
4:47
Speaker 2: routine for me, just walk into my car and then
4:50
Speaker 2: you know, going to meet my friend. So there was
4:51
Speaker 2: no like alarm bells or red flags going off. So
4:55
Speaker 2: I saw a man in that parking lot like while
4:58
Speaker 2: I was walking, which was a little it weird because
5:01
Speaker 2: there's just no real reason to be in the very
5:03
Speaker 2: far back of like a big parking lot like that.
5:06
Speaker 2: But it also wasn't super weird. I mean, it was
5:08
Speaker 2: a fairly busy area, so I just didn't really think
5:11
Speaker 2: much about it. I figured he was walking from somewhere,
5:14
Speaker 2: and I just got in.
5:15
Speaker 3: My car, and so what happened after you got in
5:20
Speaker 3: your car?
5:21
Speaker 2: So I got in my car, and because it was
5:24
Speaker 2: January in Ohio, it was cold, and I just let
5:30
Speaker 2: my car warm up for a couple of minutes. It
5:31
Speaker 2: was something I always did. I had kind of an
5:33
Speaker 2: older car, so I was just letting it warm up
5:36
Speaker 2: for just a second. And then while I was sitting there,
5:40
Speaker 2: the man that I saw in the parking lot tapped
5:43
Speaker 2: on my window. You know. I looked over and I
5:46
Speaker 2: just really instinctively rolled my window down, like reflexively, I guess,
5:49
Speaker 2: without thinking. I just rolled my window down because at
5:52
Speaker 2: the time, I guess just like my only experience with somebody,
5:55
Speaker 2: you know, tapping on your window had been if they
5:58
Speaker 2: needed help, or maybe you know, they wanted to tell
6:01
Speaker 2: me something about my car or something like that, which
6:04
Speaker 2: is what he did. He immediately was like, hey, you
6:06
Speaker 2: have a flat tire. And one of the things I
6:10
Speaker 2: noticed is that. So I drove like a little sedan,
6:13
Speaker 2: a little niece on sedan. And normally, like if you
6:17
Speaker 2: were trying to talk to somebody in a car and
6:20
Speaker 2: you were outside standing, you'd like bend down right to
6:23
Speaker 2: look at them, and he didn't do that. He stood straight,
6:26
Speaker 2: and he stood to the side, so I didn't actually
6:29
Speaker 2: ever see his face. So he said I had a
6:32
Speaker 2: flat tire, and then really quickly my first thought was
6:35
Speaker 2: just like, oh, I have kind of new tires. I
6:37
Speaker 2: didn't notice anything, so like I just immediately started thinking
6:40
Speaker 2: about like, oh, no, I have a flat tire. What
6:42
Speaker 2: am I going to do? And while I was thinking,
6:45
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was like half a second, but while
6:47
Speaker 2: I was thinking that, he just like reached through the
6:50
Speaker 2: window and put a gun to my head and told
6:53
Speaker 2: me not to look at him or he would shoot me.
6:57
Speaker 3: Allen doesn't remember exactly what happened next, but she does
7:00
Speaker 3: know that she just did what she was told. She
7:03
Speaker 3: closed her eyes when he said close your eyes. And
7:05
Speaker 3: he must have told her to move because she ended
7:07
Speaker 3: up on the passenger side of the car in an
7:10
Speaker 3: kneeling position, So my.
7:12
Speaker 2: Knees were on the floor, and then my hands and
7:15
Speaker 2: my head were on the seat, the passenger seat, and
7:18
Speaker 2: then he put something over my head that I actually
7:22
Speaker 2: think might have been my apron from serving, but it
7:25
Speaker 2: just felt like like a cloth bag, like some kind
7:27
Speaker 2: of cloth something over my head so that I couldn't see.
7:31
Speaker 2: And he obviously got in the car in the driver's seat,
7:36
Speaker 2: and then he kept the gun for most of the time.
7:39
Speaker 2: He must have moved it when he started driving, but
7:41
Speaker 2: he kept the gun on my back most of this time.
7:44
Speaker 2: And then he also had me like he moved my
7:48
Speaker 2: hand so that I could touch the gun, and I
7:51
Speaker 2: guess just like to prove to me that it was
7:53
Speaker 2: a real gun, which I didn't really have any experience
7:56
Speaker 2: with guns, but you know, it certainly felt real.
8:00
Speaker 3: And you didn't get a good look at him. Do
8:02
Speaker 3: you remember anything about like the sound of his voice
8:05
Speaker 3: or anything.
8:06
Speaker 2: It was an adult voice, like he was definitely like
8:09
Speaker 2: a man, not like a younger kid. The only like
8:13
Speaker 2: detail I really got of him was he'd been wearing
8:15
Speaker 2: like a camouflage print jacket or coat. And then besides that,
8:20
Speaker 2: again he was like average height, like average weight, like
8:23
Speaker 2: there was nothing like really like specific that stuck out
8:27
Speaker 2: to me.
8:28
Speaker 1: So he gets into the driver's seat and he's now
8:32
Speaker 1: driving the car.
8:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he starts to drive the car. I think
8:36
Speaker 2: he might have taken my money before he pulled out.
8:40
Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact sequence, but I'm pretty sure
8:43
Speaker 2: right away he did take any money I had. So
8:46
Speaker 2: I gave him like the cash I made that day
8:48
Speaker 2: from my apron, which again wasn't very much because it
8:51
Speaker 2: had been such a slow day, but I gave him
8:53
Speaker 2: the cash I had anything I had in my wallet. Weirdly,
8:56
Speaker 2: he didn't ask for my wallet, but he did ask
8:59
Speaker 2: for a credit cards, which I didn't have any credit
9:02
Speaker 2: cards at the time. I just had my debit card,
9:04
Speaker 2: so I gave him my debit card, and then I
9:06
Speaker 2: believe as soon as he had the money, he started driving.
9:10
Speaker 2: So the window was all the way down. I had
9:12
Speaker 2: one of those automatic windows, you know, where you hit
9:14
Speaker 2: it and it just rolls all the way down. But
9:16
Speaker 2: a weird thing about my car was that it was
9:19
Speaker 2: really hard to get the window back up. I knew
9:22
Speaker 2: how to do it. It was one of those things you
9:24
Speaker 2: know when you have older cars, there's like weird quirks
9:26
Speaker 2: to them, so like you had to push the button
9:28
Speaker 2: in this exact right way, and he couldn't do it.
9:31
Speaker 2: He didn't know the trick. So the window actually stayed
9:34
Speaker 2: open the whole time. So the window was open, and
9:37
Speaker 2: again it was January, so it was cold, so I
9:40
Speaker 2: was shaking. I'm sure I was probably shaking out of fear,
9:43
Speaker 2: but I was also shaken just because it was really
9:46
Speaker 2: cold because he started driving and that window was all
9:49
Speaker 2: the way down. The other thing was that my car
9:51
Speaker 2: was a stick shift, so it was a manual transmission.
9:54
Speaker 2: It was like a point of pride for me that
9:56
Speaker 2: I could drive a stick and so I was sort
9:58
Speaker 2: of proud of that. And then he like he got
10:01
Speaker 2: it going. He was able to drive it, but getting
10:03
Speaker 2: out of the parking lot was a little rough. I
10:05
Speaker 2: think he stilled it a couple of times, striking, and
10:08
Speaker 2: he actually said something to me. I remember he said like, oh,
10:10
Speaker 2: I bet you thought I couldn't drive your car, which
10:13
Speaker 2: I thought was a weird thing to say, because like,
10:15
Speaker 2: obviously I hadn't thought anything about this, Like I didn't
10:18
Speaker 2: know you were going to get in my car, so yeah,
10:20
Speaker 2: so I think I just said something like, oh, no,
10:23
Speaker 2: you're doing great or something along those lines.
10:27
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, It's like I wouldn't be in my
10:30
Speaker 1: car right now if I had thought anything about you
10:32
Speaker 1: trying to drive it. Right when he gets into your
10:34
Speaker 1: car and pushes you to the passenger side, that's all
10:37
Speaker 1: kind of a blurb. And in that sort of blurry
10:39
Speaker 1: moment is when he says, you know, I want credit
10:41
Speaker 1: card to step a cards cash, and you give him
10:43
Speaker 1: what you have, which is not a lot so debit card.
10:45
Speaker 1: And from that point, when he's driving out of the
10:49
Speaker 1: parking lot, what is he saying to you? What is
10:52
Speaker 1: he saying to you?
10:52
Speaker 2: Period? I feel like he talked most of the time.
10:55
Speaker 2: There might have been like a few moments where we
10:58
Speaker 2: were just driving in silence, but he talked a lot.
11:01
Speaker 2: So like right away when he started driving, I said,
11:06
Speaker 2: you know, like after I gave him all my money,
11:08
Speaker 2: and I was just like, you can have my car.
11:11
Speaker 2: Just let me, you know, let me go. Can you
11:13
Speaker 2: let me go? You can have all my money, you
11:14
Speaker 2: can have my car. And he said, pretty seriously, why
11:19
Speaker 2: would I want your car. I don't have any use
11:21
Speaker 2: for your car. At that moment, I was like, okay,
11:24
Speaker 2: well then what's happening, Like this isn't just a robbery obviously,
11:28
Speaker 2: like he wants me, Like I was just kind of
11:33
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what's going on. He talked a
11:35
Speaker 2: lot about the trailer, like he would say that he
11:38
Speaker 2: was going to put me in a trailer. He would
11:41
Speaker 2: say things about like selling me, and he talked a
11:45
Speaker 2: lot about like that he was working with a group
11:48
Speaker 2: of people, and he would say that I was really
11:51
Speaker 2: lucky to be dealing with him because all of these
11:54
Speaker 2: other people were way worse. Everything was like a threat,
11:58
Speaker 2: like if I acted up, or if I didn't listen
12:00
Speaker 2: to him, or if I looked at him, then things
12:02
Speaker 2: would get worse. I would have to deal with these
12:04
Speaker 2: other people or whatever. He asked me my name, which
12:07
Speaker 2: I told him, and then he would ask weird things,
12:11
Speaker 2: like he asked me if I was a virgin and
12:13
Speaker 2: then started talking about how they pay more for virgins.
12:17
Speaker 2: At some point, I think he asked me if I'd
12:19
Speaker 2: ever been to Europe and I said no, and he said, well,
12:22
Speaker 2: you'll be there tomorrow, like that's where the trailer is going.
12:26
Speaker 2: So he would say, like just a lot of things
12:28
Speaker 2: like that that were weird, but obviously at the time
12:33
Speaker 2: very scary and just like threatening. My reaction, I don't
12:39
Speaker 2: know that I really like thought about it. I think
12:42
Speaker 2: when you're in a situation like this, your body, you know,
12:44
Speaker 2: just reacts. I'm normally a really emotional person. I cry
12:48
Speaker 2: really easily, and you know, like I usually have pretty
12:52
Speaker 2: big reactions, but in this case, I think my body
12:55
Speaker 2: just kind of did what it needed to do, and
12:57
Speaker 2: I was able to stay pretty calm. I just answered
13:00
Speaker 2: his questions and just talked to him. I tried to
13:04
Speaker 2: just talk to him like people talk to each other.
13:07
Speaker 2: And that wasn't something I really thought about at the time.
13:10
Speaker 2: It was just kind of a reaction.
13:19
Speaker 3: Ellen was terrified, and rightfully so. The stranger had just
13:23
Speaker 3: kidnapped her and was now threatening all kinds of dangerous
13:27
Speaker 3: and violent things, and yet Ellen stayed remarkably calm. She
13:32
Speaker 3: didn't want to do anything to escalate this situation, so
13:35
Speaker 3: she acted as if she wasn't scared for her life.
13:39
Speaker 3: She spoke to him as if everything was totally fine,
13:42
Speaker 3: as if he were just a man. She had met
13:44
Speaker 3: in a normal scenario. He drove them to a bank
13:47
Speaker 3: and went through the drive through atm he'd already taken
13:50
Speaker 3: her debit card, and now he asked for her pen number,
13:53
Speaker 3: and she gave it to him.
13:55
Speaker 2: He asked me how much money I had in my
13:56
Speaker 2: bank account, which was a very small amount because I
13:59
Speaker 2: was a college student, and I found out later I
14:01
Speaker 2: guess that he took out the exactly amount that I said,
14:04
Speaker 2: which I thought was a little weird that he believed
14:07
Speaker 2: me on that didn't try to get more.
14:09
Speaker 3: Do you feel comfortable telling us how much money he
14:12
Speaker 3: took out?
14:13
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, yeah, it was like one hundred and sixty
14:15
Speaker 2: dollars or something like that. Like it was less than
14:17
Speaker 2: two hundred dollars. It was a small amount, which is
14:19
Speaker 2: why I was surprised that he didn't, like, try to
14:22
Speaker 2: get more.
14:23
Speaker 3: Did you have more money than that in your bank account?
14:27
Speaker 2: I didn't. I was very honest with him and told
14:29
Speaker 2: him exactly what I had. Because it was such a
14:31
Speaker 2: low number, I think I was worried that, like, it
14:34
Speaker 2: wouldn't be enough, so I just told him exactly what
14:36
Speaker 2: I had in my account, or as much as I
14:40
Speaker 2: don't know that I knew like do this and how
14:42
Speaker 2: much money was in there, but I gave what I
14:45
Speaker 2: the best that I could recall. But once he got
14:50
Speaker 2: the money out of the bank, we stopped in that
14:52
Speaker 2: parking lot and we sat there for a long time,
14:55
Speaker 2: and that was when he continued to talk about the
14:57
Speaker 2: trailer and he started telling me that he needed to
15:01
Speaker 2: check me for wires, like if I was wearing a wire.
15:05
Speaker 2: I felt like that was such a weird thing to say,
15:07
Speaker 2: like why would I be wearing a wire? But it
15:09
Speaker 2: became pretty apparent that it was more of an excuse
15:12
Speaker 2: just to like touch me, so he would like put
15:15
Speaker 2: his hands under my shirt. He did that a couple times,
15:18
Speaker 2: I think, while we were sitting there, and in one
15:20
Speaker 2: of the times he did start to like unbuckle my
15:23
Speaker 2: pants and I just asked him not to. I told
15:26
Speaker 2: him that I was on my period and I said,
15:28
Speaker 2: could you please not? And he amazingly stopped and he
15:33
Speaker 2: didn't do anything else.
15:36
Speaker 3: And this whole time, still your face is down, and
15:40
Speaker 3: does he still have like a gun pointed at you.
15:43
Speaker 2: I feel like, because my car was a stick, he
15:45
Speaker 2: probably had to take it off me when he was driving.
15:48
Speaker 2: But I know that for a good portion of the
15:51
Speaker 2: time he had it pressed up against my back, and
15:54
Speaker 2: if he did take it away, I feel like he
15:56
Speaker 2: would put it back periodically just to like remind me
16:01
Speaker 2: that it was there and he had the gun. Most
16:04
Speaker 2: of what he was saying and doing was just like
16:07
Speaker 2: threats to just make sure that I complied, and you
16:12
Speaker 2: know I did.
16:14
Speaker 3: While her kidnapper threatened her life, jabbed a gun into
16:17
Speaker 3: her back repeatedly, and touched her body in unwanted ways,
16:21
Speaker 3: Ellen stayed calm and focused. She studied him, his voice,
16:26
Speaker 3: his words, assessing how best to interact with him to
16:29
Speaker 3: her advantage, what angered him, what kept him calm, All
16:33
Speaker 3: of this pointing towards the same goal, to survive, this,
16:37
Speaker 3: to stay alive. Almost twenty years later, she still remembers
16:42
Speaker 3: the sound and quality of his voice.
16:46
Speaker 2: He kept kind of like almost like an urly calm demeanor.
16:51
Speaker 2: He spoke pretty like evenly and calmly the whole time,
16:55
Speaker 2: but it was very like he was serious when he talked.
17:00
Speaker 2: He felt very threatening without being like chaotic, Like it
17:03
Speaker 2: wasn't like chaotic or like violent in that way. At
17:06
Speaker 2: some point, I think when we were sitting in a
17:10
Speaker 2: big parking lot, or maybe a little later he started
17:14
Speaker 2: talking in a different language that sounded like German like,
17:18
Speaker 2: almost like he was talking to himself, Like there were
17:21
Speaker 2: some times where it almost seemed like he was just
17:22
Speaker 2: kind of like muttering to himself. And he told me
17:27
Speaker 2: that I reminded him of someone named Rachel, and the
17:31
Speaker 2: way that he said that made me feel like Rachel
17:35
Speaker 2: was somebody like that he liked, you know, like I
17:37
Speaker 2: don't know who she was. He never said it, but
17:39
Speaker 2: it was like a good thing. I think for me,
17:40
Speaker 2: it felt like a good thing that I reminded him
17:43
Speaker 2: of this person. And then after that he called me
17:46
Speaker 2: Rachel a couple of times. When he did that, his
17:49
Speaker 2: voice got a little softer, and he felt a little
17:51
Speaker 2: bit more like far away, that makes sense, like he
17:55
Speaker 2: was kind of like more within his thoughts than he
17:57
Speaker 2: was present in the car. I do remember thinking about
18:01
Speaker 2: just how strange it was that he was calling me Rachel,
18:03
Speaker 2: but I made the decision not to correct him.
18:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you got that sense in that moment by
18:08
Speaker 3: the tone of his voice. Oh, I think Rachel is
18:10
Speaker 3: someone that he is fond of, And so I'm guessing
18:14
Speaker 3: that that's translating to it's a good thing that I
18:17
Speaker 3: remind him of Rachel, and even if he thinks I'm Rachel,
18:19
Speaker 3: then maybe he won't hurt me. Is that the sort
18:22
Speaker 3: of the like quick second like train of thought.
18:25
Speaker 2: I think it was. I didn't want to correct him
18:27
Speaker 2: and kind of break him out of whatever he was in, Like,
18:30
Speaker 2: I didn't want to make him feel like he was wrong.
18:33
Speaker 2: I didn't want to correct him. I wanted to make
18:34
Speaker 2: sure he felt like he was in control. It seemed
18:39
Speaker 2: that as long as he was kind of thinking about Rachel,
18:42
Speaker 2: that that was a good thing.
18:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know, you started off in the
18:47
Speaker 3: parking lot behind the Applebee's, and then he's driving. At
18:51
Speaker 3: some point he goes to the bank, and then he
18:54
Speaker 3: goes to the bank parking lot, and then does he
18:58
Speaker 3: continue to drive.
19:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we were stopped for a while, and I
19:04
Speaker 2: had a tough time keeping track of time. We were
19:07
Speaker 2: parked in that bank parking lot for what was probably
19:10
Speaker 2: like ten minutes, but I honestly don't know. And then yeah,
19:13
Speaker 2: we started driving again. But he didn't ever tell me
19:16
Speaker 2: where we were going. When he started driving, he did
19:19
Speaker 2: say a couple times he said, don't worry, it'll all
19:22
Speaker 2: be over soon. It wasn't like in a comforting way,
19:26
Speaker 2: so I didn't quite know what that meant, Like was
19:29
Speaker 2: he just going to drop me off somewhere? Was he
19:31
Speaker 2: going to take me to this trailer? Was he going
19:34
Speaker 2: to kill me? Like? You know, I just didn't know.
19:37
Speaker 2: But it didn't seem like any of it was a
19:41
Speaker 2: good option.
19:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, with this very eerie comment, don't worry, It'll all
19:46
Speaker 3: be over soon. Was there ever a part of you
19:49
Speaker 3: that thought maybe I should try to jump out of
19:51
Speaker 3: the car.
19:52
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I forgot to mention is
19:55
Speaker 2: that I had a little like flip phone and it
19:59
Speaker 2: was small enough to hold in my hand. Instead of
20:02
Speaker 2: wearing a coat because I was twenty two and I
20:05
Speaker 2: didn't like to wear coats. I just had like a
20:08
Speaker 2: hooded sweatshirt on that i'd put over my T shirt.
20:11
Speaker 2: And my phone was in my pocket and so I
20:15
Speaker 2: had that and I remember thinking right away at the beginning,
20:19
Speaker 2: like can I do something with this, Can I, you know,
20:22
Speaker 2: call for help? But because like he was so close
20:25
Speaker 2: and he had the gun either on me or you know,
20:27
Speaker 2: right next to me, and because it was a flip phone,
20:30
Speaker 2: it was like the only way I could think to
20:32
Speaker 2: use it would be to like flip it open, and
20:34
Speaker 2: then I would have to either like call or text,
20:37
Speaker 2: and texting back then was like, you know, on the
20:39
Speaker 2: little number pad. So I just like I couldn't think
20:43
Speaker 2: of a good way to use it that I felt
20:47
Speaker 2: like was not super high risk. So I kept a
20:51
Speaker 2: hold of my phone in my hand, and it was
20:54
Speaker 2: buzzing a lot because obviously, like my friends who I
20:56
Speaker 2: was supposed to meet were wondering where I was, so
20:58
Speaker 2: they were calling and texting me. So I would just
21:00
Speaker 2: keep it in my hand and every time it would
21:02
Speaker 2: go off, I would hit you know, the little silence button.
21:05
Speaker 2: So he didn't notice. Looking back now, I'm like, oh,
21:08
Speaker 2: he didn't ask for my phone, But it was two
21:10
Speaker 2: thousand and six and I didn't know how well he
21:12
Speaker 2: was at the time, but it was obvious that he
21:14
Speaker 2: was not a young person, so maybe he just didn't
21:17
Speaker 2: think that I wouldn't even have a phone because he
21:19
Speaker 2: never asked me for it. So I had that in
21:21
Speaker 2: my hand, and then I did think about could I
21:24
Speaker 2: open the door and get out, but because I couldn't
21:28
Speaker 2: see anything at the time, it didn't seem like it
21:31
Speaker 2: made a lot of sense, just because like if we
21:35
Speaker 2: were driving, I wouldn't know were there are cars next
21:38
Speaker 2: to us, you know, like I wouldn't know. And then
21:41
Speaker 2: if we were stopped, it seemed like he would be
21:44
Speaker 2: able to shoot me in the time it would take
21:46
Speaker 2: me to actually open the car and get out. So yeah,
21:49
Speaker 2: I thought about it. It definitely was still an option.
21:52
Speaker 2: I felt like if things like escalated to the point
21:54
Speaker 2: where maybe I felt like I had to, but I
21:57
Speaker 2: did kind of like weigh things out, and it seemed
21:59
Speaker 2: like it would have been too risky like to do it.
22:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes total sense. Did he ever say anything
22:07
Speaker 3: to you during this time of driving around parking about
22:11
Speaker 3: why he did this, why he targeted you.
22:15
Speaker 2: No, he didn't. We drove again and then we did
22:20
Speaker 2: park That's when he sort of ramped up, like the
22:24
Speaker 2: threats that he started talking about how he had been
22:26
Speaker 2: watching me, and he made it sound like he knew
22:31
Speaker 2: that I would be coming out of the restaurant because
22:33
Speaker 2: he had been watching me, or and he would tell
22:35
Speaker 2: me that he knew where I lived. He started talking
22:38
Speaker 2: about like if I told anybody about him, then he
22:43
Speaker 2: would come after me and my family because he knew
22:46
Speaker 2: where we lived, which was obviously terrifying. But he was
22:50
Speaker 2: starting to talk about like, you know, he was saying
22:52
Speaker 2: things like if you tell anyone or like so that
22:55
Speaker 2: started to make me think like, Okay, maybe he's going
22:58
Speaker 2: to let me go because he's he's saying all of
23:01
Speaker 2: these things about like why I can't go to the
23:04
Speaker 2: police or why I can't tell anybody because he knows
23:07
Speaker 2: where I live, you know, is my family, he knows
23:09
Speaker 2: my friends, and he would come after us if I
23:12
Speaker 2: said something. So it was very scary, but also, like
23:18
Speaker 2: you know, was making me think that there might actually
23:21
Speaker 2: be a way out of this.
23:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very different conversation, even though the situation
23:27
Speaker 3: is the same. He's holding a gun, him saying something
23:30
Speaker 3: like I'm going to take you to a trailer. You're
23:33
Speaker 3: going to go to Europe. It's very different from Okay,
23:36
Speaker 3: don't tell anyone about this.
23:38
Speaker 2: You know.
23:38
Speaker 3: Did you say anything in that moment back to him.
23:42
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure I just was like as reassuring as
23:45
Speaker 2: I could be, Like I just kept saying like, oh, no,
23:48
Speaker 2: of course I wouldn't tell anybody. I wouldn't, I wouldn't
23:50
Speaker 2: do that that kind of a thing. I just tried
23:52
Speaker 2: to be as reassuring as I could that I was
23:57
Speaker 2: listening to him and I was going to follow his instructions.
24:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so then how did it end?
24:04
Speaker 2: So, you know, I was starting to feel like maybe
24:07
Speaker 2: he would let me go, and I still had my
24:10
Speaker 2: phone in my pocket and it buzzed, and I must
24:13
Speaker 2: have just moved my elbow a little bit, like more
24:16
Speaker 2: than I realized, but he noticed me move and so
24:20
Speaker 2: he immediately was like, what was that. And that was
24:23
Speaker 2: the only time that he got kind of like, you know,
24:25
Speaker 2: like he raised his voice that he immediately was like,
24:28
Speaker 2: what are you doing? And so I just like I
24:30
Speaker 2: took my hand out of my pocket with my phone
24:32
Speaker 2: and I just like put it out and I was like,
24:34
Speaker 2: it's just my phone. You can have it, you know,
24:36
Speaker 2: take it.
24:38
Speaker 3: This entire time, Ellen had clung to the fact that
24:41
Speaker 3: she still had her phone. It was her secret lifeline.
24:44
Speaker 3: She had hoped he would let her go. But now
24:47
Speaker 3: if he did let her go, if he dropped her
24:49
Speaker 3: off in some random part of the city, she would
24:52
Speaker 3: be without a car and without a phone. And he
24:55
Speaker 3: was angry when you found out that she had this phone.
24:59
Speaker 3: So now she was where that he wouldn't let her go.
25:01
Speaker 3: And that he might follow through with his threats to
25:04
Speaker 3: harm her. But then he continued to threaten her in
25:08
Speaker 3: a way that was hopeful. Instead of threatening to have
25:11
Speaker 3: her killed or to traffick her overseas, now he was
25:15
Speaker 3: threatening to come after her if she went to the police.
25:18
Speaker 3: He said he had her phone, so he wouldn't just
25:21
Speaker 3: come after her, he would come after her friends and
25:24
Speaker 3: her family. Of course, that was scary, but it also
25:27
Speaker 3: indicated that he was going to let her go. Why
25:30
Speaker 3: else would he be worried about her going to the police.
25:33
Speaker 2: So shortly after that, he told me that he was
25:36
Speaker 2: going to have me count to one hundred and then
25:39
Speaker 2: he was going to get out of the car. But
25:40
Speaker 2: if I opened my eyes or if I didn't finish
25:42
Speaker 2: counting to one hundred, that he would know, like he
25:45
Speaker 2: would watch me the whole time, and that you know, again,
25:47
Speaker 2: he would come after me and shoot me. He said
25:50
Speaker 2: this more than once. He would say that, then he
25:53
Speaker 2: wouldn't get up, he wouldn't actually get out of the car,
25:55
Speaker 2: he'd keep talking. Again. I was like, not quite sure
25:58
Speaker 2: if it was actually going to happen or not. But
26:00
Speaker 2: then he did say it again, and in this time
26:03
Speaker 2: he did get out of the car. So I started
26:06
Speaker 2: counting to one hundred. He got out of the car.
26:09
Speaker 2: I made sure to count all the way to one hundred.
26:12
Speaker 2: You know, I was pretty deliberate about that, And then
26:17
Speaker 2: once I got to one hundred, I opened my eyes.
26:20
Speaker 2: I took the bag or whatever it was off my
26:22
Speaker 2: head and sat up to try and see where I was,
26:24
Speaker 2: because I had no idea where he had driven me.
26:26
Speaker 2: And that was when I realized that he had driven
26:29
Speaker 2: me back to the Applebee's parking lot, and so I
26:32
Speaker 2: was right where basically we had started, pretty much in
26:34
Speaker 2: the exact same spot.
26:43
Speaker 1: So as you're counting to one hundred, your positioned where
26:47
Speaker 1: your knees are on the floor of the passenger seat,
26:49
Speaker 1: and so do you just open the door and jump
26:52
Speaker 1: out or are you looking around to see if he's
26:53
Speaker 1: still there.
26:55
Speaker 2: As soon as I opened my eyes, I know I look.
26:57
Speaker 2: I'm sure I looked around to make sure he wasn't there.
27:00
Speaker 2: But then as soon as I realized I was at
27:02
Speaker 2: the restaurant, I just opened a door and then ran
27:04
Speaker 2: like as fast as I could. I mentioned earlier that
27:07
Speaker 2: my body's response, like while I was in the car was,
27:10
Speaker 2: you know, to stay calm, and then as soon as
27:15
Speaker 2: I think as soon as I realized that he was
27:17
Speaker 2: gone and I was like seconds away from help, then
27:21
Speaker 2: like everything I think that I had been holding in
27:23
Speaker 2: just like released, and I started crying and running and
27:27
Speaker 2: everything kind of came out, and I ran inside to
27:30
Speaker 2: get help.
27:32
Speaker 1: When you ran back inside to get help, what did
27:35
Speaker 1: you say and what was the response?
27:38
Speaker 2: So I ran up. It was such a weird feeling
27:41
Speaker 2: of like going into the Applebee's and everything was exactly
27:44
Speaker 2: as how I had just left it. People were still eating,
27:47
Speaker 2: people were working, and it was just so weird to
27:49
Speaker 2: me because I had just had such a crazy experience.
27:54
Speaker 2: I saw a manager standing at the you know, the
27:56
Speaker 2: point of sale system. I just ran up to and said,
28:00
Speaker 2: call the police. I've been attacked. And I don't remember
28:05
Speaker 2: exactly like what happened, like what she did. I know
28:09
Speaker 2: she was trying to call me down because I was
28:11
Speaker 2: crying and it was hard for me to get words out,
28:14
Speaker 2: but I know I was clear about that. I said,
28:16
Speaker 2: call the police, I've been attacked. And we actually had
28:19
Speaker 2: a police officer who was there on Saturday nights. He
28:23
Speaker 2: would come I think around ten pm on Saturday nights
28:26
Speaker 2: it just got busy. We had like a late night
28:28
Speaker 2: happy hour, and sometimes it would get a little rowdy.
28:31
Speaker 3: Allen's parents were called and a few people went out
28:33
Speaker 3: to look for her car. It was still there, the
28:36
Speaker 3: keys lane in the driver's seat. Ellen's calm demeanor was gone.
28:41
Speaker 3: It had kept her safe and clear headed during the kidnapping,
28:44
Speaker 3: but now that she was out of immediate danger, the
28:47
Speaker 3: reality of what she went through came crashing down on her.
28:51
Speaker 3: She cried so hard she could barely speak. Fortunately, a
28:55
Speaker 3: good friend of hers was working in the kitchen that night.
28:58
Speaker 2: And he came out and just I remember he just
29:00
Speaker 2: sat with me because obviously people were asking me lots
29:03
Speaker 2: of questions and I was having trouble, like forming complete sentences.
29:07
Speaker 2: I was just so upset, and I remember he just
29:09
Speaker 2: sat there with me and waited for my parents to
29:11
Speaker 2: get there. My friends who I was supposed to meet
29:15
Speaker 2: someone had called them and so they had come back.
29:18
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of people around. It was
29:21
Speaker 2: just a little bit like chaotic. Everybody wanted to know
29:24
Speaker 2: what was going on. And then once my parents got there,
29:27
Speaker 2: we went back into like through the kitchen, and then
29:30
Speaker 2: in the back there wasn't an office. That's where we sat,
29:34
Speaker 2: and then the police officer took my statement to the
29:37
Speaker 2: official police report. I gave the statement. I remember him
29:42
Speaker 2: asking me about what he looked like, if I could
29:45
Speaker 2: give any kind of description, and I remember feeling like
29:48
Speaker 2: I wish I had more to give, but I just
29:51
Speaker 2: hadn't seen his face. So I remembered what he was wearing,
29:54
Speaker 2: like the camouflash coat, and that he was like average size.
29:58
Speaker 1: What does it sort of feel like to be in
30:01
Speaker 1: your body after going through something like that?
30:04
Speaker 2: It was tough. You know, he's still out there, and
30:07
Speaker 2: I was really taking his threats seriously that he knew
30:10
Speaker 2: where I lived. Obviously I had gone to the police,
30:14
Speaker 2: so like I was just worried that he was going
30:16
Speaker 2: to come after me. I lived with my brother at
30:18
Speaker 2: the time, you know, in an apartment, and so I
30:22
Speaker 2: just remember like begging him, like, don't go back to
30:24
Speaker 2: the apartment. You can't stay there, Like what if he
30:26
Speaker 2: comes like looking for me and he finds you, And
30:31
Speaker 2: so he did he did. I think he stayed either
30:33
Speaker 2: at my parents or somewhere, you know, at a friend's house.
30:36
Speaker 2: I can't remember, but I stayed with my parents. I
30:39
Speaker 2: don't remember why because I believe I had a room there,
30:43
Speaker 2: but I slept on a couch, maybe just to like
30:46
Speaker 2: be close to everybody. I'm I'm not sure. And yeah,
30:50
Speaker 2: I remember like the first couple of nights. The first
30:54
Speaker 2: night especially, I couldn't sleep. My mom brought me a
30:57
Speaker 2: bunch of different books, and so I had like a
31:00
Speaker 2: stack of books. And I'm somebody like in my normal life,
31:05
Speaker 2: if I am having a hard day, I want to
31:08
Speaker 2: like comfort eat, you know, like I want comfort food.
31:10
Speaker 2: But this is one of the few instances where I
31:13
Speaker 2: just like I couldn't I was so upset that I
31:15
Speaker 2: couldn't eat. I remember like that forst night, throwing up
31:19
Speaker 2: a few times, like just like I just felt physically sick.
31:23
Speaker 3: The words of her kidnapper were hard to forget. He
31:26
Speaker 3: claimed to be associated with very dangerous people. He threatened
31:30
Speaker 3: her family. He said he'd been following her, he knew
31:33
Speaker 3: where she worked, where she lived. Ellen doesn't know exactly
31:37
Speaker 3: how long the kidnapp being lasted. Time seemed to pass
31:41
Speaker 3: in this totally different way during that event, but she
31:44
Speaker 3: thinks it was actually only about one hour. One hour
31:48
Speaker 3: that changed her perception of her own safety in the world.
31:52
Speaker 3: Everything around her was the same before and after that
31:55
Speaker 3: one hour, but Ellen was not. She grappled with how
31:59
Speaker 3: to move forward. Knowing her attacker was still out there,
32:03
Speaker 3: she worried he might come after her again.
32:06
Speaker 2: So, like, I felt like that, like the first couple
32:08
Speaker 2: of days, and I stayed with my parents for about
32:12
Speaker 2: a week, and I mean, it obviously got better, but
32:15
Speaker 2: after the first couple of days, but yeah, it was
32:17
Speaker 2: hard to sleep and eat, especially those first couple of nights.
32:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, it's just so
32:25
Speaker 1: scary to go through something like that. So the police
32:28
Speaker 1: had questioned you that night about what had happened and
32:32
Speaker 1: trying to get some information that they could work with
32:34
Speaker 1: to maybe try to find this person and what happens
32:37
Speaker 1: in the investigation into this.
32:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was a detective assigned to the case.
32:43
Speaker 2: I talked to the detective on the phone a couple
32:45
Speaker 2: of times, and it was pretty quick. It was definitely
32:50
Speaker 2: like before. So this happened on a Saturday. It was
32:53
Speaker 2: before the next Saturday, so I don't know if it
32:55
Speaker 2: was like four or five days later, But she did
32:58
Speaker 2: call me to let me know that they had found him.
33:01
Speaker 2: So he had been caught apparently he had attacked four women,
33:08
Speaker 2: and I was this second chronologically, so the first three,
33:12
Speaker 2: me and the other two were really similar where he
33:16
Speaker 2: approached us in our cars. But the fourth woman, I
33:20
Speaker 2: don't know if he had gotten a little bit more
33:22
Speaker 2: bold after getting away with it for three times, but
33:25
Speaker 2: he approached and attacked her outside of her car, so
33:29
Speaker 2: like in the parking lot as she was walking to
33:30
Speaker 2: her car, and it was also the middle of the
33:32
Speaker 2: day and there were people around, so she screamed and
33:38
Speaker 2: he fled. I guess he had a car there because
33:42
Speaker 2: he got into a car and drove away, but because
33:46
Speaker 2: I think somebody saw it and called the police. At
33:49
Speaker 2: least this is all what I remember. I'm not sure
33:51
Speaker 2: I'm getting it totally right because it was told to me,
33:54
Speaker 2: but I believe that he was chased. The police were
33:57
Speaker 2: after him, and he ended up crashing his car and
34:00
Speaker 2: they arrested him and he admitted to everything. So he
34:04
Speaker 2: right off the bat confessed to everything. I do remember
34:07
Speaker 2: like once I had that, like luckily that was just
34:10
Speaker 2: a few days after and so once I knew that
34:13
Speaker 2: he was caught, but a way, obviously I was still
34:15
Speaker 2: super upset, but it helped reduce that anxiety of like,
34:18
Speaker 2: he's going to come after me or he's going to
34:19
Speaker 2: come after my family, And.
34:22
Speaker 1: So what can you tell us about who this person
34:26
Speaker 1: was and what did you learn about him?
34:29
Speaker 2: He was older, I think he was in his fifties
34:32
Speaker 2: or early sixties. He didn't have a criminal record. I
34:37
Speaker 2: believe he was a veteran. He had a lot of grandkids, like,
34:41
Speaker 2: he had a big family that were all very supportive
34:44
Speaker 2: of him. From what I remember, he had recently gone
34:48
Speaker 2: through a pretty tough time, Like I think that he
34:51
Speaker 2: lost his wife to cancer and his brother was killed.
34:54
Speaker 2: I don't really know, but I know he had gone
34:57
Speaker 2: through some tough things and then yeah, he did these things.
35:02
Speaker 2: At least from what I was told, there didn't really
35:05
Speaker 2: seem to be a clearer mode of a reason for it.
35:10
Speaker 3: The person responsible for attacking Ellen, along with three other
35:13
Speaker 3: women was a man named Henry Williamson. It was rather
35:17
Speaker 3: shocking simply because he was a sixty seven year old
35:20
Speaker 3: grandfather with no prior record. His family members said he'd
35:24
Speaker 3: been struggling with depression and had been battling cancer. He
35:28
Speaker 3: was on multiple medications because of that, but it's unclear
35:31
Speaker 3: if those medications impacted his actions. An investigator in the
35:35
Speaker 3: case told Ellen that Williamson had acted alone. Everything that
35:39
Speaker 3: he told her in the car about working with this
35:42
Speaker 3: group of people involved with international sex trafficking, he made
35:46
Speaker 3: that up. He also had not been stocking Ellen prior
35:49
Speaker 3: to the kidnapping. Instead, it's believed that he just happened
35:53
Speaker 3: upon her in the parking lot that night, pure chance.
35:57
Speaker 3: Henry Williamson's bond was set at five hundred thousand dollars
36:00
Speaker 3: for having a gun and running from the police.
36:04
Speaker 1: And he was facing multiple charges but ends up accepting
36:10
Speaker 1: a plea deal and not going to trial. We looked
36:14
Speaker 1: up his case and it seems like he pled guilty
36:16
Speaker 1: to a charge of aggravated robbery and was then sentenced
36:20
Speaker 1: to nine years. Yes, how did it feel for you
36:23
Speaker 1: to sort of learn he wouldn't be going to trial
36:26
Speaker 1: and that he would have a nine year sentence.
36:30
Speaker 2: The initial charges included kidnapping, and then I think when
36:34
Speaker 2: they did the plea it was just aggravated robbery is
36:37
Speaker 2: what they ended up charging him with. So I went
36:39
Speaker 2: down to the courthouse with my mom at some point
36:42
Speaker 2: to read the psychological report. So they had done a
36:45
Speaker 2: pretty big, lengthy report and I remember reading that and
36:49
Speaker 2: just like learning a little bit more about what was
36:51
Speaker 2: going on with him in some ways made it worse
36:54
Speaker 2: because I think there was like something in there where
36:57
Speaker 2: they asked him like why he targeted me, and he
36:59
Speaker 2: just said like, oh, she just looked like she'd be
37:02
Speaker 2: easy to rob, which just made me feel super vulnerable, Like,
37:06
Speaker 2: you know, there was just like nothing I could have done,
37:09
Speaker 2: you know, like he just saw me and did this.
37:13
Speaker 2: Like at least at the time, I was okay with
37:15
Speaker 2: the plea deal, you know, I just didn't have a
37:18
Speaker 2: lot to compare it to, Like I'd never been in
37:21
Speaker 2: a situation like that. I didn't like spend a lot
37:24
Speaker 2: of time like researching like what an average sentence for
37:26
Speaker 2: this kind of thing would be. I mostly just listened
37:29
Speaker 2: to the prosecutor like what he told me. And I
37:32
Speaker 2: think he might have been sick at the time he
37:34
Speaker 2: was sentenced, so there was like a feeling of okay,
37:39
Speaker 2: like he's older and he's sick, and like nine years
37:42
Speaker 2: in that situation seemed, I don't know, like a longer
37:45
Speaker 2: period than maybe it would have been in a different situation.
37:50
Speaker 2: I mostly just really wanted to put it behind me
37:52
Speaker 2: and to have it over with, and the main thing
37:55
Speaker 2: I was concerned about was just making sure that he
37:58
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to be in a situation where, you know,
38:01
Speaker 2: it could happen again, where he could do something like
38:03
Speaker 2: that again.
38:05
Speaker 3: So you did go and speak at his sentencing hearing.
38:09
Speaker 3: You know, what can you tell us about what you
38:11
Speaker 3: remember from that experience as far as what you said
38:14
Speaker 3: in your victim impact statement and what it was like
38:17
Speaker 3: being in the courtroom that day.
38:20
Speaker 2: I remember just being nervous. I remember he kept his
38:24
Speaker 2: head down pretty much the whole time, like he wasn't
38:27
Speaker 2: making eye contact with me. Trying to remember. I feel
38:30
Speaker 2: like he did say something like I think he might
38:32
Speaker 2: have said that he was sorry for what he did.
38:34
Speaker 2: I can't remember. Some of his family spoke. I remember
38:37
Speaker 2: his granddaughter spoke about him helping her with her homework,
38:41
Speaker 2: And it was just such a like a weird thing
38:44
Speaker 2: for me to like see these people and to hear
38:46
Speaker 2: her speak, because it was just such a totally different
38:50
Speaker 2: thing than like, you know, that what I had seen.
38:53
Speaker 2: I think I just really wanted to make it clear
38:57
Speaker 2: what he had done to us. You know, I'm glad
39:00
Speaker 2: that she got help with her homework, but like he
39:03
Speaker 2: had done this, he did this thing to me, and
39:06
Speaker 2: I was there, so I talked. I don't remember what
39:10
Speaker 2: I said. It was pretty short. I think I just
39:13
Speaker 2: you know, talked about like how it impacted me and
39:16
Speaker 2: how I felt scared and vulnerable and alone. Our statements
39:20
Speaker 2: were more for the judge because the judge was doing
39:22
Speaker 2: the sentencing, so I think I talked more about like
39:25
Speaker 2: how much I just wanted to make sure he didn't
39:27
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to hurt anybody. Again.
39:30
Speaker 3: What was the impact that you felt from this experience.
39:34
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously at the very beginning, like I said,
39:36
Speaker 2: you know, I couldn't sleep, But later on it was more.
39:41
Speaker 2: I remember when I read that psychological report, which would
39:45
Speaker 2: have been you know, probably like six months after, and
39:49
Speaker 2: you know, you said, like, oh, she was just it
39:51
Speaker 2: looked easy to rob. I remember having a really strong
39:54
Speaker 2: reaction to that because I think like before all of
39:58
Speaker 2: that happened, I'd in a college athlete, like I was
40:03
Speaker 2: pretty good shape. I just like felt like a tough girl,
40:07
Speaker 2: you know, like I felt like I could take care
40:08
Speaker 2: of myself. I knew how to throw a punch, Like
40:11
Speaker 2: I had this sort of like idea of myself of
40:13
Speaker 2: like just being able to take care of myself. And
40:17
Speaker 2: in reality, when all of this happened, I was just
40:20
Speaker 2: completely powerless, Like there was a gun in this situation,
40:24
Speaker 2: and I just felt like there was nothing that I
40:26
Speaker 2: could do. And I think that just really made me
40:31
Speaker 2: much more fearful in general, obviously much more aware of
40:35
Speaker 2: my surroundings and just like you know, a hypervigilance that
40:42
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't have before. You Know, I had
40:45
Speaker 2: normal things like if I was in the middle of
40:47
Speaker 2: the night walking down to alley by myself, I would
40:49
Speaker 2: be a little scared, but in general, you know, I
40:52
Speaker 2: was just kind of like going through life feeling pretty
40:55
Speaker 2: good about like my ability to defend myself. And after that,
40:59
Speaker 2: I just really felt like there's danger everywhere, you know,
41:03
Speaker 2: like and I need to be prepared for it. So
41:07
Speaker 2: I think like lasting impacts. My body still has like
41:12
Speaker 2: physical reactions to like if I'm in the car and
41:15
Speaker 2: somebody walks by, I'll tense up and I just immediately
41:19
Speaker 2: get like kind of a panic state, like, oh, what's
41:22
Speaker 2: this person doing. I'll lock my doors, even if it
41:27
Speaker 2: seems silly. And I don't think I realized this. I
41:30
Speaker 2: think it was sort of like a slow thing. But
41:32
Speaker 2: I have felt like I need to start trying to
41:36
Speaker 2: think of like everything that could happen. And so I
41:40
Speaker 2: am like definitely like an ultra planner, you know, I
41:44
Speaker 2: plan everything out and I try to anticipate every situation,
41:48
Speaker 2: and if like anything goes wrong in my plans, like
41:51
Speaker 2: if anything is something said and comes up and plans
41:54
Speaker 2: are changed, it's hard. I have a tough time with
41:57
Speaker 2: that because I need to know it exactly, like what
42:01
Speaker 2: we're doing and when, so that I can have as
42:04
Speaker 2: much control over the situations. And that was something that
42:07
Speaker 2: I think I don't even really realized that was happening
42:11
Speaker 2: until like years later, and I was like, oh yeah,
42:14
Speaker 2: I really and like this where I don't think I
42:18
Speaker 2: necessarily was before. And then like the other thing that
42:23
Speaker 2: I would say was one of the reasons I wanted
42:25
Speaker 2: to talk about it was just that like I did
42:29
Speaker 2: just kind of go on, you know with my life.
42:31
Speaker 2: I quit my job, I got a new job, I
42:33
Speaker 2: graduated college, I stopped waiting tables, started my career. I
42:39
Speaker 2: eventually got married, and you know, everybody close to me
42:43
Speaker 2: knows what happened. I talk about it, but I don't
42:46
Speaker 2: really talk about it very often, and I also think
42:51
Speaker 2: sometimes I've had this is going to sound silly, but
42:54
Speaker 2: like almost like this like imposter syndrome of like like
42:58
Speaker 2: it wasn't like a terrible crime that you know, you
43:00
Speaker 2: would do a documentary about. You know, I wasn't shot.
43:03
Speaker 2: There were just like so many other terrible things that
43:06
Speaker 2: could have happened, and so like there's that feeling of
43:09
Speaker 2: like I just need to be thankful that like, you know,
43:12
Speaker 2: he ended up letting me go and then I survived,
43:16
Speaker 2: and I am, of course very thankful. But I think,
43:19
Speaker 2: especially like years later, now that I'm so far moved
43:23
Speaker 2: from it, I can also think about just like how
43:25
Speaker 2: much of an impact this has had on my life,
43:28
Speaker 2: and that like there's no reason that I shouldn't talk
43:30
Speaker 2: about it. And there's probably other people who have been
43:33
Speaker 2: through maybe not the same thing, but you know, similar
43:36
Speaker 2: things and might feel the same way. So yeah, so
43:39
Speaker 2: that was a lot of the reasons I felt like
43:41
Speaker 2: it was important to talk about it.
43:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, I'm so glad that you reached out
43:46
Speaker 3: to us. I mean, it's also like this framework of
43:49
Speaker 3: like storytelling, and sometimes you know, there's space created to
43:53
Speaker 3: tell stories of what has happened to us, and sometimes
43:56
Speaker 3: it's more limited or we want to just mention it
43:58
Speaker 3: in conversation and and the crudest details are like, well, yeah,
44:03
Speaker 3: you got away, he let you go, you know, and
44:05
Speaker 3: your quote unquote okay, and thank goodness that that is
44:08
Speaker 3: the situation. But it was very much a crime, and
44:12
Speaker 3: it was kidnapping. It's interesting that that is a charge
44:15
Speaker 3: that they ended up dropping and who knows why, you
44:17
Speaker 3: know the complications of that, but it's like, that's what happened,
44:21
Speaker 3: you know, was going on, and it's such a scary thing.
44:25
Speaker 3: So I appreciate you coming on and telling us and
44:30
Speaker 3: talking to us about it.
44:31
Speaker 2: Oh thank you.
44:33
Speaker 1: I was just curious. How were you notified that he
44:38
Speaker 1: had passed away from cancer?
44:40
Speaker 2: I actually think I got notified that he was petitioning
44:43
Speaker 2: for early release. It kind of all got brought up
44:46
Speaker 2: again at that point because he was dying, so I
44:50
Speaker 2: knew that he was sick. But then yeah, someone called me,
44:53
Speaker 2: so I missuming, you know, somebody from the prison system
44:56
Speaker 2: or somewhere somebody called me and just basically me that
45:00
Speaker 2: he had passed away. I remember being at work and
45:05
Speaker 2: even though it didn't surprise me because I think I
45:07
Speaker 2: had known that he was sick. It's still like affected
45:12
Speaker 2: me more than I thought. Like I remember, like I
45:13
Speaker 2: just I left. I talked to my manager and sad
45:16
Speaker 2: like I had to leave, I went. I think I
45:18
Speaker 2: just like walked my dog to the park and took
45:20
Speaker 2: a really long walk. But it was just a strange feeling.
45:24
Speaker 2: It just brought up everything again. And then it's also
45:27
Speaker 2: like a weird feeling of like being glad that everything's over,
45:31
Speaker 2: but then also like you don't want to like celebrate
45:35
Speaker 2: a death, Like I wasn't like happy that he died,
45:38
Speaker 2: but I was happy that it was just over, pretty
45:40
Speaker 2: definitively over with that.
45:43
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, I can imagine that would be sort
45:47
Speaker 1: of a complicated wave of emotions. You know, a lot
45:50
Speaker 1: of I think life exists in this great area in
45:53
Speaker 1: that way. Is there anything that we didn't ask you
45:57
Speaker 1: that you phil is maybe an important detail that we missed,
46:02
Speaker 1: or just something to include.
46:05
Speaker 2: One thing that I thought was kind of a fun
46:07
Speaker 2: little detail. Funds might not be the right word. But
46:10
Speaker 2: when I got my phone back, it took me a
46:13
Speaker 2: while to get it back, so I think it had
46:14
Speaker 2: been like a week or so, and I was able
46:16
Speaker 2: to check my voicemails, and I had obviously like voicemails
46:20
Speaker 2: and messages from my friends who I was supposed to meet,
46:22
Speaker 2: but I also had a voicemail from my mom and
46:26
Speaker 2: when I checked the time, it was basically right when
46:29
Speaker 2: everything was happening, and she left me this voicemail that
46:33
Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it like ford for word,
46:35
Speaker 2: but it was something along the lines of like, Hey, Aleen,
46:38
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about you. I just I feel
46:40
Speaker 2: like maybe like maybe you're having a hard day or
46:43
Speaker 2: a hard time, and I just like thought you might
46:45
Speaker 2: want to talk, and so like I just want to
46:48
Speaker 2: let you know I love you and I'm thinking about you,
46:50
Speaker 2: and you know, I'll give a call later. And uh
46:53
Speaker 2: So that was like a really sweet and nice message
46:56
Speaker 2: to hear. And it's something that I think about a
46:59
Speaker 2: lot because my mom passed away a couple of years ago,
47:03
Speaker 2: and so when I think about that voice message, you know,
47:05
Speaker 2: like she wasn't with me and somehow still had that
47:08
Speaker 2: thought of like, you know, something might be going on
47:11
Speaker 2: and that I might have needed her, and so I
47:13
Speaker 2: like to think that that same is true now, you know,
47:16
Speaker 2: when she sat with me that she still has that
47:19
Speaker 2: understanding when something, you know, I'm going through a rough time.
47:24
Speaker 2: So I thought that was kind of just like a
47:27
Speaker 2: nice a nice thing that I had that she didn't
47:29
Speaker 2: mention it to me, like at the time, I she
47:31
Speaker 2: probably forgot she even loved it, So that was like
47:34
Speaker 2: a nice thing. Like a week later that I just
47:36
Speaker 2: had this this super sweet voicemail on my phone.
47:40
Speaker 1: Well, she sounds like a really great mom.
47:43
Speaker 2: She was.
47:45
Speaker 1: Sorry, I have a two year old, I have a daughter. Yeah,
47:51
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I totally believe in like
47:55
Speaker 1: that connection between a person and their parents or a
47:58
Speaker 1: parent and a child.
47:59
Speaker 3: Is like it's just so big. It's just so big.
48:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's you know, I think it's obviously a
48:07
Speaker 1: sweet moment and an otherwise incredibly traumatic situation. Well, thank
48:12
Speaker 1: you so much.
48:13
Speaker 2: Thank you.
48:14
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you reaching out and sharing your story.
48:17
Speaker 1: And I think your story and I know Hannah feels
48:20
Speaker 1: the same way as is important and it's a good
48:23
Speaker 1: thing that it ended with you being safe and like
48:27
Speaker 1: it doesn't lessen that it impacted your life.
48:31
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I know I said this in an email,
48:33
Speaker 2: but I have really just loved our podcast. I think
48:37
Speaker 2: what you're doing is really important, and I think you
48:39
Speaker 2: just you do it in such a kind and thoughtful
48:43
Speaker 2: and careful way, and so I just really appreciate that,
48:46
Speaker 2: and I've really enjoyed listening to your interviews with other women,
48:49
Speaker 2: So thank you.
48:56
Speaker 1: So Ellen wrote us an email and I immediately was like, oh, Hannah,
49:02
Speaker 1: you should read this. I think we should speak with Ellen.
49:04
Speaker 1: And in the email was sort of a reader's digest
49:09
Speaker 1: version of her story of being kidnapped, and Ellen was
49:13
Speaker 1: not certain that this was a story worth telling on
49:17
Speaker 1: the show and said that for the same reason, she
49:20
Speaker 1: really hadn't spoken to even many people in her life
49:22
Speaker 1: about it. And I think that, you know, we've heard
49:25
Speaker 1: this before from victims of prime or nefarious incidents, where
49:32
Speaker 1: if they escaped physically unharmed, sometimes there's a bit of
49:36
Speaker 1: a reluctance to fully acknowledge what happened to them.
49:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the facts of the matter, like, oh, look,
49:43
Speaker 3: you're fine. That was you probably got scared, but you're alive,
49:48
Speaker 3: you haven't been seriously harmed. So somehow it feels like
49:52
Speaker 3: less salacious to people in some way. Yeah, but it's like,
49:56
Speaker 3: shouldn't we be happy that she got out alive and
49:58
Speaker 3: that she's okay.
49:59
Speaker 1: Right, and can't we still talk about and reflect on
50:02
Speaker 1: how this has impacted now so many different aspects of
50:07
Speaker 1: her life. I mean, she said that prior to this incident,
50:11
Speaker 1: she of course would roll down her window for a stranger,
50:13
Speaker 1: assuming that they're there to help her or that they're
50:16
Speaker 1: in need of help. And now because of what happened
50:18
Speaker 1: to her, I don't think anyone could fault someone in
50:22
Speaker 1: her position for no longer reacting that way.
50:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, the like sort of fear of strangers when she's
50:29
Speaker 3: in her car was an interesting impact that is still
50:32
Speaker 3: happening to her. And also I thought that the way
50:36
Speaker 3: that she talked about like hypervigilance and feeling the need
50:40
Speaker 3: to control everything was really poignant. So many people can
50:44
Speaker 3: relate to that, even if you haven't gone through like
50:46
Speaker 3: you haven't been kidnapped, but I totally see how if
50:49
Speaker 3: you went through a situation where someone took control away
50:52
Speaker 3: from you completely of like your safety, your vehicle, like
50:56
Speaker 3: the idea of maybe even potentially your life, you would
51:00
Speaker 3: be really like desperate to hold onto control absolutely.
51:04
Speaker 1: Her sort of question around whether or not her story
51:09
Speaker 1: had a place on the show or really anywhere. Almost
51:12
Speaker 1: brought me back to some of the more like kind
51:15
Speaker 1: of strange reactions that we had from a couple of
51:18
Speaker 1: people to Durune's episode.
51:20
Speaker 3: I remember that yeaheah, where like she.
51:22
Speaker 1: Didn't even get attacked enough or something. Just Banana's like that,
51:26
Speaker 1: and you're thinking, that's a good thing that she was
51:29
Speaker 1: not physically harmed more than she already was, I know,
51:33
Speaker 1: and that should be something that we're really glad about
51:36
Speaker 1: and not sort of saying, so stop telling your story,
51:39
Speaker 1: It's not worth it to me.
51:40
Speaker 3: Totally similar to Drune's story, coming so close to being
51:48
Speaker 3: physically harmed or potentially killed, like you have to imagine
51:52
Speaker 3: that it's not completely the same on your body, but
51:54
Speaker 3: that fear is still there, Like your body is still
51:58
Speaker 3: reacting in this like fight or flight mode, Like you
52:01
Speaker 3: have all of that pumping through your body and your brain,
52:04
Speaker 3: and so there are like very real physical consequences completely this.
52:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
52:11
Speaker 1: Completely.
52:12
Speaker 3: I also was just like so fascinated by how she
52:15
Speaker 3: talked about her just natural reaction was just to be
52:19
Speaker 3: so calm and just to pretend like he was just
52:21
Speaker 3: a dude who she met, And can you imagine being
52:24
Speaker 3: in that scenario and having to be like, oh, yeah,
52:26
Speaker 3: like you're doing a great job driving my stick shift car.
52:30
Speaker 3: Like the amount of times that she had to be
52:32
Speaker 3: like I needed to tell him that he was doing
52:34
Speaker 3: a good job to keep safe.
52:36
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, oh yeah, And there's so much
52:38
Speaker 1: we could say about this, But it's like, I think,
52:41
Speaker 1: not everyone, probably very very very few people have ever
52:44
Speaker 1: found themselves in a situation even close to similar to this. However,
52:48
Speaker 1: I think most women have found themselves in a situation
52:51
Speaker 1: where you feel uncomfortable and so you stroke the ego
52:56
Speaker 1: of a man who's making you uncomfortable in order to
52:59
Speaker 1: try to feel more comfortable or more safe, and.
53:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sucks, totally. Yeah, it was relatable. Okay, So
53:08
Speaker 3: I was curious about, you know, you had done some
53:11
Speaker 3: research into Henry Williamson, the man who kidnapped her and
53:16
Speaker 3: was eventually charged and then died in prison. There was
53:20
Speaker 3: a note that he had cancer and he had been
53:22
Speaker 3: going through treatment. We also heard that he was going
53:24
Speaker 3: through like a lot of very difficult things in his
53:26
Speaker 3: life when this happened. I was really curious about if
53:30
Speaker 3: there was some kind of potential link between having cancer,
53:33
Speaker 3: maybe like taking some medicines like chemotherapy drugs, and if
53:38
Speaker 3: that could have any potential connection to mental health or
53:41
Speaker 3: anything like that.
53:42
Speaker 1: Right, because we don't exactly know why he did this.
53:45
Speaker 3: We don't like there was never really an explanation, yeah,
53:48
Speaker 3: that we know of. So I did find an article
53:51
Speaker 3: from the Journal of Psychiatric Research from twenty twenty four
53:55
Speaker 3: and it said being diagnosed with cancer and coping with
53:58
Speaker 3: fears around potential death might trigger acute distress. And previous
54:03
Speaker 3: research found that patients with cancer are one point eight
54:07
Speaker 3: five times more at risk of developing mental illness. And
54:10
Speaker 3: there was an analysis done by the English Longitudinal Study
54:13
Speaker 3: of Aging involving seven five hundred and eighty six adults
54:18
Speaker 3: and about a thousand of them had cancer, and of
54:21
Speaker 3: that like zero point three percent, so only nineteen people,
54:25
Speaker 3: but they self reported hallucinations. So there is some potential
54:30
Speaker 3: small association that cancer patients could have higher odds of hallucinating,
54:35
Speaker 3: but is very unclear if that's like because of the cancer,
54:37
Speaker 3: what type of cancer, and the treatment.
54:39
Speaker 1: Or if it's like correlation not causation, where it's like, okay,
54:45
Speaker 1: if you're reconciling that your life might be ending much
54:48
Speaker 1: sooner than you thought or hoped. You know, maybe they're
54:51
Speaker 1: sleepless nights, okay, sleep deprivation. Maybe you know, you're not
54:56
Speaker 1: able to keep food down because of all of the
54:59
Speaker 1: medication you're taking. I mean, there's so many factors at play.
55:03
Speaker 1: I obviously have no idea, but yeah, the fact that
55:07
Speaker 1: his family knew him as someone completely different for really
55:11
Speaker 1: almost his entire life, you know, it tells you something
55:15
Speaker 1: happened there totally.
55:17
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the bizarre things about this
55:19
Speaker 3: case is that you know, he had no prior record.
55:23
Speaker 3: When Ellen talked about being in court and that sort
55:25
Speaker 3: of dissonance between his granddaughter saying, this is my grandpa
55:29
Speaker 3: and he helps me with my homework, and that is
55:32
Speaker 3: how his family knows him. She's like, that's sad, but
55:35
Speaker 3: also it's very real that he attacked me and three
55:38
Speaker 3: other women. So that's the same person that did that. Like,
55:41
Speaker 3: how do you reconcile that?
55:43
Speaker 2: Right?
55:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's impossible, I think, and I mean
55:47
Speaker 1: we've already said this, but the ripple effect, Right, you
55:49
Speaker 1: have someone who is very clearly in the eyes of
55:52
Speaker 1: the justice system of victim. You have Ellen and the
55:55
Speaker 1: three other women that he attacked but you also have
55:58
Speaker 1: his family members who are now suffering from watching this
56:02
Speaker 1: person that they know as a really loving grandfather father.
56:07
Speaker 1: You know, he's now a dangerous criminal and he's being
56:11
Speaker 1: prosecuted that way, and I imagine that's a very difficult
56:15
Speaker 1: place to be as.
56:15
Speaker 3: Well, totally, and to have like a parent die in
56:19
Speaker 3: prison would be difficult.
56:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just an impossible thing.
56:23
Speaker 2: I think.
56:25
Speaker 3: Well, I'm so grateful that Ellen reached out and shared
56:28
Speaker 3: her story with us. I thought it was unique. I'd
56:31
Speaker 3: never heard a story quite like this, and I was
56:33
Speaker 3: glad that she trusted us to tell it.
56:35
Speaker 2: See you guys next week.
56:39
Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
56:41
Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
56:43
Speaker 1: rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
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Speaker 1: at the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky at the
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Speaker 1: Knife Podcast.
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Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
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Speaker 3: by me Hannah Smith.
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Speaker 2: And me Paytia Eaton.
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Speaker 1: Our producers are Tom Bria Bogel and Alexis Samarosi. This
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Speaker 1: episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is
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Speaker 1: Christina Chamberlain.
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Speaker 3: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport artwork.
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Speaker 1: By Vanessa Lilac.
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Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.