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Jamie Forbes on Community · Sidewalk Talks

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: You know, I've never actually used this real clapper.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: I still just clap. I mean, it's right there. You can reach it.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I know, but it's more of a prop than a, like, a okay. Fine. I'll do
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: it. Do it.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Jamie Forbes, you're getting the first legitimate clapper crowd. Sidewalk talks with Jamie Forbes. Take one episode one. Whoo.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Does that mean there's more than one episode?
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know there's gonna be more than one episode. There's gonna be Jamie Forbes, The Return, Jamie Forbes, part three. We you have too much to say. We have too much to say to each other. So it's like That's true.
• 0:47
  You are yeah. You're you're gonna get a comeback. Sorry for other people ahead
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: of time.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: First things first, Jamie Forbes, what do you think about my cool hat?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I really like it.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Do you?
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I recently bought my husband a hat that's much more exaggerated version of that that has solar powered fans in it. So I think you could maybe upgrade. Really? Yeah. It's insane.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: So my my dad, growing up, always wore they're not cowboy hats, but, like, they're very, like, brimmy hats kind of thing. And we're in Michigan, and I always thought it was, like, the corniest thing ever.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: And now you're a high guy.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I I I was working in South Carolina. I was like, man, I really need something to keep the sun off of this. And I put this hat on, and I was like, oh.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I can do this. I can do this hat thing.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm rocking it. I'm on a sidewalk safari. Before we get into our conversation, I I wanna tell you thank you because I I it was a year a couple years ago, you and I were were texting about community organizing and Ezekiel project, things like that. And you turned me on to the magic of the phrase, tell me more.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. Isn't it so good?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: It is transformative. Like, from from that point until now, like, it is it is my single go to like, I don't have to ask a question. Mhmm. I don't have to think. All I have to do is listen to the person and say, can you tell me more about that?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: And like, they just open up their worlds to you. They will cry on your shoulder. They will invite you to their son's bar mitzvah. Like, it's just like, it is absolutely magic. Where did you first hear that phrase?
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So say more is the one that I say the most. But so my my state director, when I was an organizer for the Ezekiel project, she said that all the time. It turns out that people love to be asked about themselves. Right? Universally, know you this more than anybody.
• 2:52
  You literally ask people about themselves all day. But it's amazing what people will tell you about their amazing story and how many times you're like, this is what I get to do with my life is I'm I'm gonna have this job where I ask people about themselves. It's like every time that I have a one on one with someone, there'll be at a point during the conversation where I'm like, man. Mhmm. I get to do this.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And the stuff that people will tell you. I mean, man, people have had such amazing lives.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I I I made a post on Facebook this morning because yesterday I called Andrew Kitzman for some help with a project and I saw it. Pick up the phone and say, hey, Andrew. How's it going? And he's like, how have things been with you?
• 3:37
  And all of a sudden, we're going down, like, like, this is how the job is going and my job is going and, like, therapy and consciousness and psychedelics and three d printing and, like, what is God? And, like, seriously, that was a twenty five minute conversation. And then we we talked a little bit about the project, spent the, like, the last thirty seconds going, like, hey, this is something that you think you could do? He's like, yeah. I'm gonna give it a shot.
• 4:03
  Thanks so much. And I hung up the phone with Andrew and I it was exhilarating.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: And it was just another reminder of what you're saying is like, every single person is so eager to to be seen, to see other people, to tell about themselves, to hear about yourselves. And it, like, we just gotta cut out the small taco straight to the big taco.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they're I think that we're also really lucky to have people that are both professional allies and friends. Like, I really like the people
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: That I get to be friends with. And, fortunately, for so many of them, community stuff and professional stuff and values stuff overlaps with all of that. Yeah. What a blessing to get to have both.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Good humans doing good work. Mhmm. You you mentioned being an organizer for Ezekiel Project. Yeah.
• 4:56
  And sometimes in the community space, we hear that phrase like, I'm a community community organizer, organizer, things like that. For for folks that are not familiar with what a community organizer does or what that experience is like or what it entails or the purpose of it, like, what's what's the one zero one of someone who is a community organizer?
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: So basically, building power through relationships, intentionally broadening your base by increasing the amount of people that you know and knowing what motivates them so that you can steer people in a direction of positive change. Developing solutions, you know, analyzing power dynamics, strategizing strategizing deeply about how to solve problems, and then making a plan and executing a plan to make the change happen. I was an organizer for Ezekiel for four years. Ezekiel Project has been here in Sagna for twenty five, thirty years now. And it was a completely life changing experience.
• 6:00
  I still categorically call myself an I'm a community organizer because it changed who I am at the most basic level.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And I experience. Why? Like, why what was so powerful about it?
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I think that it well, on a personal level, it helped me figure out how my values play out, the kind of the person I wanna be in my community, and how that is so very closely tied to who I am as a person and, you know, my family and and their their value system that they raised with. And that this is I mean, I think that community organizing is my faith practice. I believe that this is what I am called to do as a believer. And so it was it just it showed me the framework and showed me how to try to make progress happen. And then also showed me that I could make some stuff happen and that it was like the best feeling in the whole world and I wanted more of that.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: That aspect, the last aspect of, like, showing you how to get progress or make progress or get something done. I is what I think is the most beautiful part of it. Mhmm. Because we a lot of times how we we think we should operate in a community is like, I think this and this is my opinion and this is my experience. So this is what the community should do.
• 7:29
  But in practice, like, community doesn't work like that. Like, you you've gotta know how to work with people and persuade them and work together and come to a consensus and, like, now what do we do and strategize and accomplish and all of these things. And I think a lot of our frustration in communities is self inflicted in a way because we're we're play we're trying to play a different game than what it is. Like, it's not about, like, me anymore. It's about all of us.
• 7:55
  It's kind of the the double edged sword of American self determinism. Like like, I'm independent and I can do this and can grit it and I can work hard enough and I will make it happen. But as soon as you put put that one person in a group of three people Mhmm. That's that's a different ballpark.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, all this work depends on our relationships and it's a long game, right? So we are not gonna be 100% on the same page all the time. But that if we can compromise and listen to people carefully and figure out what moves them and what drives them, we can move people in a direction that is, you know we say, there's the joke in public transit that boating is like public transit because you, you know, you get off on the stop that's closest to your destination. Right?
• 8:48
  We're not gonna get exactly what we want all the time. Mhmm. And if we're really in relationship with each other, then when things are not going well or we need to hold someone accountable that we know that person deeply enough to be able to have that tough conversation because love is holding people accountable to what they say.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And when there's relationship
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: there, You can do that.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: You can do that. And you can do that in a way where something positive can still come from it. It's not just torpedoing somebody's reputation and saying, yeah, you suck everybody look how unqualified they are. Like there's still the opportunity for progress afterwards. And that goes to something that we were we were texting about a couple days ago.
• 9:33
  You were talking about one of one of the core tenants
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Of community organizing is this idea of no permanent enemies and no permanent friends.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I really there's I love the tenants of Gamaliel Network community organizing and there's and I definitely still carry them with me. And one of them, yeah, that I really like is no permanent friends, no permanent enemies. The idea that we cannot give up on each other. There is nothing that is big enough to say that you'll never work on on something with somebody again.
• 10:12
  And I think that I I mean, I still struggle with that. Right? Because I, like, really deeply passionately care about so many things. But I have to, like, chill out. And, like, sometimes that's not a tenant that you can hold every moment of the day.
• 10:27
  And if you need to rage for a while and then come back to it, you can. But I think that if we're truly committed to change happening, we have to we cannot count people out. And that's really hard. Right? Because we're angry and we get selfish and we get and we focus on the wrongs that people have done to us.
• 10:48
  But I think if if we start a relationship with actual, you know, with questions and curiosity and courageousness, and then we disagree, point should be that when we share, you know, a goal in the future that we can get back to that. Mhmm. And if and if we have one disagreement and then we say, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done.
• 11:11
  I'm never gonna talk to you again. I wanna work on you. I'll work on stuff with you. God, that really limits our ability to get anything done, doesn't it? Yep.
• 11:19
  Especially because there's, like, a million trillion issues that we could potentially disagree on.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Especially in a very small community like city of Saginaw.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: You'll never escape escape them.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Like like you go down to Metro Detroit Mhmm. And you burn a bridge. Sure. You like, you might have 25 other bridges to cross. There's 20 over five other people or organizations that can help you accomplish the change that you seek to make in the world.
• 11:46
  Great. Like, you can burn those, you can afford to burn those bridges. Here Yeah. There might be the one person in the last three generations that is is the person to help you do that. And if you burn that bridge, the the change that you wanna make, the progress that you wanna see literally will never happen.
• 12:07
  And then it becomes like this this case of ego versus issue. Mhmm. Like, well, I I need to burn this bridge because it makes me feel like I have power and like I'm doing the right thing and all of the things. And then you wake up a year from now and you're like, oh, man. Like, I gotta go to the meeting and ask that person for the grant funding that I need to build this playground.
• 12:28
  And they're gonna be staring at you that entire time and saying, like, no way. You burned that bridge.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I just typed out a snotty comment on Facebook yesterday. And today, I was reminded that I am really glad I didn't hit post. You know what I mean?
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I I encouraged a friend last night. He was he was about to send something that he shouldn't. I was like, bro, do not send that text. Go to Google Docs. Type it all out.
• 12:53
  Get it out of your system, and then delete that thing and then go on with your life because, like, you're you are about to do some something irreparable.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: And Yeah. I mean, I think this is, like, particularly poignant at this current moment of the world. Mhmm. And like and that's not to say that I don't battle with that myself. Like, we care so much about each other that we think that sometimes it is worth burning it down.
• 13:20
  Right?
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: And so that's not to say that I that I think this is the solution to everything. I'm not I'm not quite sure, but it's something I think about a lot.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: And I think that there have been times where I've been able to follow it carefully and then been happy I did. But I don't know. It's just like, it's something we've gotta figure out because we can't hate we can't hate our neighbors. Tons and tons of them Yeah. Forever.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. You can't just exist in that.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I just don't know how we as a country, we as a world move forward.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I'm doing a keynote in Missouri next week. And it's and it's about this idea that in order to transform our communities, we need to change our conversations. Mhmm. Because really a community is built on words and what we say to each other and then that builds the relationships and the sense of trust collaboration and then you make committees that make decisions or a government that leads or groups that get these things done. And it's like you it's a basic words and and relationships are the basic building blocks.
• 14:29
  And and one of the ideas is that we have to change our conversations from one of retribution to conversations of reconciliation.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: In that, like, it's so easy for us to jump on, like, need revenge. I need to take that out. And we were talking before, like like being angry. Like our our default is like to be angry about something, but we have to change our conversations to one of like like, I feel hurt by this.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: But how can we still come together after? Because that really holds the community at like the the forefront. Like it is in the end not about just me. And so how can I give myself up to this community that I'm trying to serve?
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: I actually think you are a really good example of living that because I've never seen where someone made a negative comment about someone being left out or someone being ignored. And you not respond and say, well, cool. Can you give me the information for that person? And then you go out and then you do a story on them. You do a photo series and you listen to them.
• 15:34
  And then you turn them into drinking the Kool Aid like the rest of us. Right? The whole like, the best way to handle that kind of a conflict is to say, okay. Well Yeah. Then I'll go do what you just told me to do and we can all do this together.
• 15:50
  Mhmm. Thanks for pointing out that that gap that I didn't see. I'm so glad you made that connection because now I'll I'll follow through.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: A therapist I was working with once, I was telling him about like how I tend to react to conflict because I am very conflict averse. Like my skin is so thin. It's transparent. It is like like I just run away from it. And and he listened to me and he was like, well, what if instead of running away from the person that you are in conflict with, you tried to run towards each other?
• 16:28
  And I and I thought I thought that was such a brilliant way of of framing like like one our reaction to conflict. Like we tend to run away from each other either through like not talking to them or severing a relationship or burning the bridge down through anger. But what if you you ran towards that person that you're feeling hurt by and you said something in or you acted in a way that felt like, is it okay if I give you a hug?
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: And like that that that kind of approach has really reframed conflict to me. It still makes me feel really
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Bad. Like But there's a peace that comes with Yes. There's a
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Like the like you're you're upholding a principle. You're doing what you know is best. There's the the poem, you know, like, the only way out is through. Mhmm. I love that.
• 17:19
  Like, you don't you don't get to run away from it. Like, because it's always gonna be there. There's always gonna be pain there. There's always gonna be conflict with her. If I don't try to fix that, now I see that person in in Meijer and now things are really weird or I'm at that community meeting six weeks from now and I blasted them on Facebook and now I have to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Like, no, man. Like, gotta run towards people. Yeah.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: That's I am a very straight talker and I Yeah. You are. Brood a lot and I'm cutting a lot. And I and it's only it was much worse when I was younger. If you can imagine that being true.
• 17:54
  And I mean, is an improvement.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Have you narrowed out over age?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. For sure. I love aging. It's great. I mean, that's not to say I haven't figured it out, but, like, it was worse is my point.
• 18:02
  And I have taken to when I think I've said something that may have offended someone Yeah. Where I, like am fretting, I'm like circling around and around on a thing that I said that I'm worried about, I have taken to being like, hey, I said that thing and I hope you didn't take it in a way in a way that I didn't mean. Mhmm. So I just wanted to, like, check-in with you on it and say that if I that if you did take it that way, I'm sorry.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Takes the weight right off my shoulder. Yeah. Seriously, the best feeling. And Yeah. Because then I can say, well, then how that person responds is out of my control.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right? I I made a a post a couple weeks ago and one of my my good Saginaw friends took great exception to what I said. He's very passionate, beautiful man, very qualified, qualified, one one of of the the heroes heroes of of Saginaw. Saginaw.
• 18:55
  And man, like I saw that and and I wasn't I wasn't angry. No. I wasn't angry. Like, I didn't feel hurt because he disagreed with me. I I felt hurt because I was like, this this opinion that I had could hurt our relationship.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: You're scared.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: And so I was like, what do I do with this feeling? And I picked up the phone and I sent him a text and I was just like, like, let's let's talk talk this through. And it it was such a beautiful exchange. It it was like both of us clarifying where we stood, both of us saying like like we have to be more aware of the fact that other people's experience is not ours. And so like that doesn't mean that my opinion is invalid or yours is invalid.
• 19:44
  It means that we are two people, different people living in the same community. And it was, like, it was just it just really reaffirmed to me how important it is this, like, no no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, don't burn your bridges, like, how important that is.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because if we we've gotta be able to maintain because we have too many things to work on in this town. We cannot Yep. We cannot close doors. Right?
• 20:07
  We can we can agree on 10% of the things and that's still enough to not burn a bridge down because we got too much to do.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Yep. Speaking of too much to do, in our little in our in our text thread, which was it was such a great exchange. You dropped this quote and and people that are listening, they've heard this before. They listen to Jimmy Green's interview and he he said straight up, he's like, I'm gonna steal this.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: It's a good one. Right?
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Claiming it claiming it as his own. So so here's the quote. And it's a quote by Edward Everett Hales and he says, I am only one but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's funny because one of my Ezekiela pastors, Ron Wagner, who was in Saginaw until recently, he's been in Pincanning. He so I so he retired on July 1, and I went up to his second to last mass to see him off. And he is a very gentle, kind, but fierce fighter for justice and equity. And he used that in his in his homily.
• 21:21
  And it really struck me because I'm like, I'm thinking about all these big heavy things in the world right now.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: And I think that there's always so much to do that it's really easy to feel overwhelmed. Right? It's just like, oh my god. There's just so many things that need our attention both here in town, but in the world. And we are gonna run ourselves ragged.
• 21:42
  When the truth is that we also don't wanna sit back and just like watch all this stuff happen. And I've been battling, like, what is the right path? What is enough? But what is appropriate? And I think that this really touches on that.
• 22:01
  We have to keep ourselves healthy. We have to keep ourselves balanced in some way. We have to be good to our families and our loved ones. But we also have got to do what we can. And I'll tell you, it is my experience in this town that when you find a thing you want to work on, and you go and you tell people about it, and you try to get some help, that you are met with, hell yeah.
• 22:24
  Let's, Here's 14 people you need to talk to. Let me introduce you. Let me support you. I'll come to your fundraiser. Donate a silent auction item.
• 22:33
  I'll show up to your thing. Right? And that is the kind of way that I want us continue to perpetuate is that every new person, we welcome with open arms. Because there's so much to do, we can't do anything besides that. Mhmm.
• 22:45
  And we should look at every person as a potential comrade, a potential teammate. And and for folks that are sitting back and they're the social media warriors, you find a thing you wanna work on, you let you let any of us know. We'll Mhmm. We'll make it happen. We'll do what we can to support you.
• 23:04
  But don't you dare sit back Mhmm. And just complain. Yeah. Please please please please pick up the mantle and help us.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like the kryptonite of community. Yeah. And and I and I love what you said because that's also been my my experience too. It's like if you if you are are willing to take a step forward towards the action of something, there are going to be there's going to be somebody saying like, I'm willing to support you with that.
• 23:30
  Let's talk more. I hope. This is this is this is the person that you you should talk about. The Simon Sinek was in a interview once and he said something like, the the price of admission to complaining about an issue is trying to do something about it first. Sure.
• 23:53
  And I love I love that idea because it really directs it to what this quote is is saying. It's like, like you have to take some kind of action. Yeah. You like, even it's even if it's small, even if it's all you can do, even if you think like there's no this isn't gonna work. There's no you like, you gotta do something first and it just the world opens up when you take that stuff.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I also wanna you know, there's some qualifiers here. Some people have no bandwidth available. And I wanna respect too that there are people who have to keep their lives really stable and safe because it's about their wellness. And so that is completely valid.
• 24:31
  There are some people who have to focus every ounce of energy on taking care of their family, taking care of their loved ones, taking care of their body, right? Like those are all valid. But those of us that can, should.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I love that you're pointing out these qualifiers because I saw a comment made a few weeks ago on the social media. The the topic was this like, people need to involved and complaining on social media and and someone came out, community leader came out and said like, yeah, these people that are complaining like I don't see them donating to x y z. I don't see them at the at the annual meetings, etcetera, etcetera. And while I understood the the perspective of that, what was communicated to me was like, if you're not caring about this place in the way that I'm caring about this place, you don't actually care about this place. And it and it and to me, it really kind of ignored the fact, like, contributing to a community can come in so many forms.
• 25:35
  Mhmm. And like you said, like, if I if I'm a single parent of four kids working a job No time. And my car breaks down and my house is falling apart, and then you say, like, you don't really care about this place like I do because you're not at this annual meeting. Mhmm. Like, like, maybe just being a great parent, the best parent you can be is how you get back.
• 25:55
  That's your contribution to the community and that is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's tough. I just I just realized that, you know, having the ability and the time and and the space to be able to put any interest into any of this stuff is a great privilege that I'm thankful to have. Yeah. And so But, yeah.
• 26:14
  I mean, maybe before you complain about some random city council topic, you have watched a single meeting. That would be, you know, like, let's just do some homework. Let's ask some questions. People are ready to answer your questions. And and, like, that's the kind of stuff that that really gets me.
• 26:34
  But but I think, yeah, we all do what we can and we all just need to check-in on that and, you know, take care of each other and support each other to keep you know, to ensure that everyone can can step up as much as they're able so that there you don't have to do it all.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: But do but what you can do, you should do.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I wanna I wanna leave folks with from your lens as a community organizer, once a community organizer, always a community organizer
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I hope so.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: To help. If I am a person in my community who sees an issue, wants to make some kind of change to make it better for everybody. What what would be like the two tips that you would give them? They're they're starting out on their journey. They see a need.
• 27:18
  They don't necessarily know how to go about it. Like, what would be the two pieces of advice would give them?
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I would say that they should ask someone for coffee. They should call up a person or find a person on social media or whatever that knows anything about the thing that they wanna change. And ask them to coffee. And look at them in the eye and drink some caffeine together and ask questions about whatever they want to learn about. And also about that person and what brings them to the place they're at and why they care about what they care about.
• 27:52
  And I just, as much as that seems like a really regular thing, and it is fortunately in my life, which I'm so thankful, but like, we just don't do that a lot. Mhmm. And I just am such a believer in this very common thing being the transformational thing. And so I would say, just talk to people. And then I think that any problem that we have in this town is pretty much been done.
• 28:16
  It has had it has occurred someplace else. And let's never let's never let let's just go steal everyone's ideas. Yep. Like, there's no sense in creating a new thing when everyone has had a problem and solved a problem and you let's go steal that ordinance language. Let's go steal that logo.
• 28:36
  Let
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: You know, let's we don't have to reinvent the wheel. So find a place where somebody else has had this problem and bring that solution
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But my friend Jeff Sigler from Revitalizer Dye says, to to communities he works with, you are not the special little flower you think you are. Like, yes, community Saginaw, you are very special.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: We are cool.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: But but the idea that no other rust belt town, post industrial town Yeah. Has struggled with access to food, like, no. Like, there have been communities across America that have solved that problem.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's keep in perspective.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so, like, find that community. Like, you are like us. There's similarities. Adapt that plan.
• 29:17
  And now our learning curve to achieving success is shortened by decades, and we can have what we want right now as opposed to tripping through Yeah. All of these mistakes and going like, oh, this is the plan when Pittsburgh, if we would have called them on the telephone, could have solved it thirty five years ago.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Like, I have found people are insanely generous with what they've learned because they wanna talk about this thing that they
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: That they cared about too. Right? So call them up, say, you know, I'm having that problem too. How did it go? And they're like, they just spill it all.
• 29:49
  Right? Mean, that's the same way it is with Great Mural. People have reached out to us, probably a dozen different cities at this point, which, you know, we stole ideas from Joe from Flint, a public art project. Our idea wasn't original. People have been doing art in this town for decades.
• 30:04
  Yep. When people call us and ask us about, you know, what about this? Well, we learned we had this plan and we tried it and it didn't work. And we go with this other plan now. But this is a factor and this I'll I'll spill all the things.
• 30:17
  Right? So if if we get to go enjoy that generosity generosity of of spirit, spirit, we we better better pay it forward too. Right? We are simply the recipients of our elders, you know, leaders in the community that were generous with us. Yep.
• 30:32
  So that's this is just like we're just delivering the the good vibes to the next Yeah. To the next ones.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: You used the word privilege earlier in our conversation, and I just wanna say that it is it is such a privilege to have you in this community
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: With us.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I'm a lucky bum.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When when I think about, like, people who have really drank the Saginaw Kool Aid like like I have, like, I think about you. Like, we thought we use that phrase Kool Aid all the time. And then you see, like, another person who yeah.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I'm so on fire for this. And and, like, you you are a person that's really, really on fire even sometimes with your fiery opinions. But you're on fire for the benefit of And I just wanna say that we that we appreciate that so much.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you. And I and I feel like when we're really in relationships like this, we can hold each other accountable too. And that's Yes. That's part of it too. Right?
• 31:29
  We don't always make the right moves. Relationship with each other, someone can say in love, hey, you missed the mark on this. And I hope that people will do that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: with me too. Yeah. Amen. Jamie Forbes, thank you so much for the sidewalk talk.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I'm so proud to be on the show. Thanks, buddy.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: You're amazing. Thank you.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: You're awesome. That was fun.